拜伦的古怪之处

一米七五可不矮。

and a half is not little.

这是根据你的员工标准。

It's it's by your staff.

今天看起来是小个子，但你得加上它。

It's little today, but you have add it.

现在他不是，他身高一米七八

Now he's not he was five foot ten

是啊。

Yeah.

而且他没有畸形足。

And he didn't have a clubfoot.

大家都以为他有畸形足，但他并没有。

Everybody thinks he had a clubfoot, but he didn't have a clubfoot.

他似乎患有某种脑瘫。

He seems to have had a form of cerebral palsy.

真的吗？

Really?

真的。

Really.

嗯。

Mhmm.

在那个时期，如果你的腿或脚有问题，他们就会称之为畸形足。

If you had something wrong with your leg or your foot in that period, they called it a clubfoot.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

但当你看到他的靴子时，他不得不穿内靴。

But when you see his boots, he had to wear inner boots.

如果有人想讨论拜伦的病理学，他们真的应该谈谈他的腿。

If anybody wants to talk about Byron's pathology, they should really talk about his leg.

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，他小时候情况很糟糕，他们试图通过扭转使其恢复正常形态。

That I mean, he had a terrible as a child, they tried to twist it back into normal form.

但当你看到他的内置靴子时，就能明白为什么叫畸形足（club foot）了——形状确实像根球棒。

But when you see his inner boots, you can see that a club foot looks like a club.

是啊。

Yeah.

而他并没有那种情况。

And he didn't have that.

他的脚部异常修长，且内侧呈向上弯曲状。

He had an elongated foot that curved inward and upward on the inside.

他是个被神话光环笼罩的人物。

He's a man to whom myths attach.

没错。

Yes.

确实如此。

He is.

毫无疑问。

Absolutely.

听听这个流行心理学观点如何？

How about this for some pop psychology?

如果他生活在一个能更轻易找到同性之爱的社会，他本可以更快乐。

If he lived in a society where he could have found love with another man easily, more easily, he would have been happier.

他的人生轨迹本会截然不同。

His his the trajectory of his life would have been different.

实际上当我们审视时，就像许多艺术家一样，他从未被允许表达这方面的真实感受，这必然对他造成了某种心理影响。

How much of what we're talking about here for him as for so many artists, actually, when you you look at it, he was never allowed to express what he felt in that regard, and that must have had some sort of psychological impact upon him.

我们接受这个论点吗？

Do we buy that as an argument?

在某种程度上认同。

To some degree.

我不认为拜伦是同性恋。

I don't think that Byron was gay.

但他确实有过同性关系。

But he had same sex relationships.

这并不意味着他是同性恋。

That doesn't mean he was gay.

不是。

No.

但我是说，他

But I mean, he

我甚至不认为他是双性恋。

I don't even think he was bisexual.

我认为拜伦对性取向的理解是——我们太爱贴标签了。

I think Byron had an understanding of sexuality that in we love labels.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们就是爱贴标签。

We love them.

我认为拜伦对性有着超越标签的理解。

And I think Byron had an understanding of sexuality that defied labels.

但他不得不从地中海寄回关于性的加密信件

But he had to write coded letters back from the Mediterranean about sex

性虐待。

sexual abuse.

我要说他并没有和男孩发生关系。

Gonna say that he didn't have sex with boys.

没有。

No.

他确实有过

He did have

与男孩发生关系。

sex boys.

而且他不得不隐瞒这件事

And he had to conceal that and and

他确实这么做了。

He did.

并且进行了编码。

And code it.

你认为如果他能够做完整的自己，他会更快乐吗？

Do I think that he would have been happier if he'd been allowed to be the full person that he was?

是的。

Yes.

毫无疑问。

Absolutely.

你认为如果他能够自由探索自己的性取向，他会更快乐吗？

Do I think he would have been happier if he'd been allowed to explore his full sexuality?

是的。

Yes.

毫无疑问。

Absolutely.

但你当时没有，现在后悔也于事无补。

But you didn't there's no point in late.

嗯，事情并非那么简单。

You Well, it's not just that.

我是说，我在想如果当时情况不同会发生什么。

I mean, I wonder then what might have happened.

你知道弗洛伊德认为艺术正是源于那种压抑。

You know Freud argues that art comes out of that kind of repression.

所以或许就像其他浪漫主义者一样——正如我在首段所暗示的——若真如此，他可能会成为更逊色的诗人。

So maybe he like all the other romantics, as I suggest in the first paragraph, maybe he would have been a worse poet for it.

是啊。

Yeah.

也可能不会。

Or maybe not.

我是说，他...我本来想表达一个观点，但在陈述过程中突然意识到自己并不认同这个观点

I mean, he he I was gonna say something that I actually, in the middle of saying it, I suddenly realized I didn't think was

继续说吧。

Go on.

说出来。

Say it

不管怎样。

anyway.

我本来想说，但这不是事实。

I was going to say but it is not true.

是的。

Yes.

我不认为他对待人非常友善感兴趣，但我觉得这不是事实。

That I don't think that he was interested in being very nice to people but I don't think that's true.

我认为他对待人非常友善很感兴趣。

I think he was interested in being very nice to people.

但他就是做不到。

But he just wasn't.

他根本无关紧要。

He just didn't matter.

他有时就是我，他在自己的作品中也这么说过，而我确实认为这是事实。

He was sometimes I and he says this himself in his work, and I I do think that this is true.

我不认为他有那种'我是谁'的自我质疑时刻

I don't think that he have you know when you sort of go, who am I?

你知道那种突然自问'我究竟是谁'的瞬间

You know when you have those moments when you're like, who am I really?

我是这个人吗？

Am I this person?

我认为他可能问过自己这个问题，但我不认为他有任何真正的自我认知

I think he might have asked himself that question, but I don't think that he had any self, any any, like, real

答案。

the answer.

我不认为他知道答案，而且我也不确定是否存在答案

I don't think he knew the answer, and I'm not sure there was an answer.

我们可以

Can we

这么说是否部分原因是他已成为名人？

say that in part because he had become such a celebrity?

他某种程度上开始相信自己

He kind of started to believe that he

当我想到拜伦，我想到一个在他的作品和日记中——我想象在他脑海里——对一切都极其诚实的人，除了他对他人可能有多刻薄。

When I think of Byron, I think of someone who was in his work and in his in his journals, I I imagine in his head, was an extremely honest man about everything except how unkind he could be to other people.

很多人可能都这样。

That's true of a lot of people, maybe.

是啊。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

我们能否直说，虽然你相当坦率地批评了这本书，但它确实让我们有机会讨论拜伦。

Can we just say, because this is a book that you've you've you've criticized fairly frankly, but it does allow us to have a conversation about Byron.

这本书的优点在于，正如我们过去二十分钟所展示的，我们始终对拜伦着迷不已。

It's good on So the virtue of it is we're endlessly fascinated by Byron as we've probably demonstrated in the last twenty minutes or so.

它确实让我们能深入探讨——虽然我们可能不认同PT的理论，但他通过扎实的史料研究带我们走进了拜伦的世界。

It does enable us to get into who I mean, we don't might not buy his theories, PT, but he gets us into the Byron because he's good on the sources and

噢，完全同意。

Oh, absolutely.

我在评论结尾确实提到过这点。

I mean, I do say that at the end of the review.

我认为这本书对拜伦研究的重大贡献在于，它明确揭示了我们亟需一部新的学术性拜伦传记。

I think that one thing that this book does that's just a huge boon to Byron's studies is it makes it plain that we need a new scholarly biography of Byron.

我们现在掌握了大量关于他同性关系、在意大利政治活动的新史料。

We have so many sources now about his same sexual sex relationships, about what he did politically in Italy.

罗德里克·比顿的著作对拜伦在希腊革命战争中的行为提出了各种有趣论点。

Roderick Beaton produced a book which makes all sorts of interesting arguments about what Byron was doing in the Greek revolutionary war.

我觉得佩蒂做得最出色的是，这本书实质上展现了我们对新传记的迫切需求。

And I feel that one thing that Petey does really well is the book essentially shows how much we need a new biography.

或者说我们有多遗憾那本自传被销毁

Or how much we regret the autobiography being consigned to the

嗯，确实非常不幸

Well, was very unfortunate.

里面到底有什么内容这么糟糕？

What was it what was in it that was so bad?

可能根本没什么

Probably nothing.

没什么

Nothing.

是啊

Yeah.

律师们干的

Lawyers.

确实没什么大不了的

Nothing much.

是啊。

Yeah.

问题就在这儿。

That's the thing.

律师和出版商。

Lawyers and publishers.

还有道德观念的变化。

And changing morals.

我们大概也只能这样了。

We would probably just be like this.

是啊。

Yeah.

没关系。

It's fine.

嗯。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

没关系。

It's fine.

祝他好运。

Good luck to him.

嗯。

Yeah.

我超爱拜伦。

Well, I love Byron.

最爱聊拜伦了。

Love talking about Byron.

我超爱看你写拜伦的那篇文章。

I love reading your piece about Byron.

我也是。

Too.

我很高兴。

I'm so glad.

这真是莫大的快乐，艾米丽。

It's been a great joy, Emily.

非常感谢你能来。

Thank you so much for coming in.

当然。

Sure.

这是我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

斯坦利·唐伍德的履历在这些领域算是相当新潮的。

Stanley Donwood has a pretty hip CV as these things go.

他是一位艺术家，曾与歌手汤姆·约克合作，为电台司令乐队创作艺术作品。

He's an artist who's created artwork for Radiohead with singer Tom York.

他还与自然奇迹之王合作过，也曾担任过TLS小说评论员罗布·麦克法兰的合作伙伴。

He also works with Nature Wonder King and one time TLS fiction reviewer Rob McFarlane.

本周在《泰晤士报文学增刊》中，他论证了唱片封面的文化价值——他认为，在上世纪后半叶，这些封面本身已成为真正的艺术品，而唱片店或许是最早真正民主化的艺术画廊。

This week in the TLS, he's made the case for the cultural value of album covers, which in the second half of the last century became, he argues, legitimate works of art themselves and record shops perhaps the first genuinely democratic art galleries.

这是个精妙的论点，或许也带着几分挽歌的意味。

It's a fine argument and perhaps something of an elegy too.

如今大多数音乐都以数字形式消费，艺术作品也是如此——由0和1组成的代码呈现在各式屏幕上，有时只是iPhone上Spotify页面里的一个小方块。

Most music now is consumed digitally and so is the artwork, an assembly of ones and zeros that appears on a multiplicity of screens, sometimes as a tiny square on a Spotify page on an iPhone.

确实如此。

How true.

斯坦利来到这里，或许带着些许愤怒回望过去，但同时也是为了颂扬这不起眼的唱片封套。

Stanley's here to look back in anger perhaps a little, but also celebrate the humble album sleeve.

斯坦利，欢迎你。

Stanley, welcome.

你好。

Hi.

你认为唱片封面是何时以及如何变得重要的？

When and how do you think record covers became important?

因为这篇文章最有趣的是，我已经很久没想过唱片封面了。

Because the fascinating thing about this piece, I hadn't thought about record covers in ages.

而你某种程度上解释了他们为何变得重要。

And you sort of you you you explained that they became important.

我是通过推理得出的。

I sort of deduced it.

几年前，Radiohead乐队一反常态，他们通常都是在那些阴森漏水的废弃建筑里录音，那些地方荒无人烟。

Some years ago, Radiohead went out to normally, they they record in these hideous, leaking, haunted hulks in the middle of nowhere.

但那次，我们去了法国南部一个真正的录音室，那里有阳光、美酒和一切美好的事物。

But this time, we went to an actual recording studio in the South France with sun and wine and everything nice.

实际上我们在《泰晤士报文学增刊》上刊登过一篇相关报道。

And they actually we we actually had a piece in the TLS about it.

他们接受的唯一采访就是在《泰晤士报文学增刊》上。

The only interview they gave was in the TLS.

谁啊？

Who that?

那是谁？

Who it was?

对。

Yeah.

索恩。

Thorne.

亚当·索恩。

Adam Thorne.

没错。

Yeah.

而且是在一栋漂亮的老房子里。

And this and it was in a beautiful old house.

是的。

Yes.

所以那其实是栋相当古老的建筑。

So so what it was, know, it was a pretty old building.

但在被改造成录音室之前，这里曾是一个令人惊叹的图书馆，或者说是一个收藏电影和音乐录音的宝库。

But before it had been sort of converted into a recording studio, it had been this amazing library or sort of repository for recorded film and music.

所以那里有大量VHS录像带的收藏。

So there was a massive collection of VHS tapes.

还有成堆成堆的电影胶片卷轴。

There was loads and loads of of cine film reels.

至于音乐方面，那里有蜡筒唱片。

But in terms of music, there were there were wax cylinders.

有78转唱片，45转唱片，你能想到的各种唱片应有尽有。

There were 70 eights, there were 40 fives, there were, you know, everything you could think of.

还有大量的CD光盘。

And loads of CDs.

收藏一直延续到CD时代。

It went up to the to the world of CDs.

但书架上那些精美的唱片集特别有意思——每张都系着一条小拉绳，取用时轻轻一拉就能避免损坏唱片脊背。

But they had these these lovely albums on the on the shelves that had a little loop of cord that you you pulled down so you didn't trash the the spine when you pulled it out the shelf.

而且很多都是空白的。

And and these were blank, a lot of them.

它们配有封套，方便你把从唱片店买来的唱片放进去。

They they had sleeves ready for you to put your your records in that you got from the record shop.

通常唱片原本会装在空白封套里。

Usually it would have been in a blank sleeve.

是啊。

Yeah.

我对这个特别着迷，因为过去我做过一些过度精致的唱片包装设计。

And I was sort of fascinated by this because then, you know, I've done a bit of a thing with my in the past of doing ridiculously over elaborate record packaging.

所以我想，干脆就这么干吧。

So I kind of thought, well, I'll do that.

我就拿了这个。

I'll take this.

于是为他们当时正在制作的唱片（后来成为Moonshake Pool专辑），我制作了这个专辑的一个版本。

So for the one the record they were doing then that become became the Moonshake Pool, I I made a version of this this album.

你知道，它就像一本相册。

You know, it was like a photo album.

它们都是装订成册的。

They all bound volumes.

就连现在买的那些，也依然保留着那种皮革装帧带点烫金边的风格。

And even the ones you buy now, they still harp back to that kind of leather bound with a bit of gilding on.

是啊。

Yeah.

尽管现在都是塑料材质了。

Even though they're all plastic and that now.

但有一段时期封面就是素面的，后来有人意识到这里是宣传内部商品的好地方。

But there's a period where it was just plain and then there was a then someone recognized this was a place where you could advertise the wares inside.

没错。

Yeah.

而且不仅仅是里面的商品。

And not just the wares inside.

我有一些非常古老的唱片套，上面基本上都是广告。

I've got some really old sleeves that have just got basically adverts on them.

所以它们只是因为原本是空白纸张。

So they just because it was blank paper.

所以你可以为任何东西打广告，咸牛肉啊，烤豆子啊之类的。

So you could advertise anything, corned beef, you know, baked beans.

那些广告确实有效，就印在唱片套上。

That could that would work, did On the sleeve.

是啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那么最早期的例子是什么？我是说，在我们能追溯的范围内，最早用艺术作品替代广告的是谁？

What would have been the first I mean, in so far as we can pinpoint it, what would have been an early example, the first person to put art rather than advertisements?

作品。

Ments.

我完全不知道

I have no idea

斯坦利，你看到的第一张让你觉得'天啊，这简直是专辑封面'的唱片是什么？

what What was the first one that you saw, Stanley, the way you thought, oh my god, that's a that's an album cover?

我是从七十年代末开始买唱片的

I started buying records in the late nineteen seventies.

所以当时市面上有什么我就买什么，我记得第一张唱片是Two by Army的

So it was whatever was I think, you know, my first record was two by Army.

是《Our Friend's Electric》那张

It was Our Friend's Electric, you know.

当时在《Top of the Pops》节目上播放过，简直太棒了

It was on top of the pops and it was brilliant.

当时我大概十一二岁吧

And I I don't know how old I was, about 11 or twelve twelve, probably.

那种感觉真是无与伦比

And it was it was just great.

它仿佛向我展示了一个我一无所知的神秘世界。

It had this, sort of, a mysterious world of which I knew nothing.

是啊。

Yeah.

那你当时买唱片是不是主要看它的封面设计？

And did you sort of buy it on the basis of what it looked like then?

那张不是。

Not that one.

我是因为《流行音乐排行榜》节目才买的。

I bought that on the basis of Top of the Pops.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

但你之前说过...

But you but your day before.

但你的观点是可以通过封面来判断一张专辑的好坏。

But your argument in this is that you can judge a album by its cover.

你可以

You can

是的

Yes.

这是个非常站不住脚的观点

It's a very flimsy argument.

斯坦利，现在就把这个站不住脚的观点说出来

Make that flimsy Stanley, make that flimsy argument now.

现在我想听听这个，因为我认为你觉得封面能暗示音乐风格

Now I want to hear this because I think that's because you think that covers are suggestive of styles.

没错

Yeah.

所以你一眼就能认出前卫摇滚的封面

So you could spot a progressive rock cover.

正是如此

Exactly.

是的。

Yes.

如果如果有个罗杰·迪恩，对。

If if there was a Roger Dean Yeah.

或者有几位艺术家在奇幻题材上特别出色。

Or there was there was several artists who excelled in sort of fantasy.

对。

Yeah.

这就像是那种...你知道的，类似《指环王》这类作品的封面风格。

It was just a sort of thing you get on a on a on, you know, a cover of something like Lord of the Rings or something like that.

而且他知道这音乐会是前卫摇滚。

And and he knew that the music was going to be prog rock.

对。

Yeah.

明白吗？

You know?

或者如果看到无衬线字体——虽然我那时连这个术语是什么意思都不知道——再加上极简风格的摄影和一大片色彩，那很可能就是爵士乐。

And or if there was sort of sans serif fonts and which I didn't even know that that term meant, but and that and quite minimal photography and a big stripe of color probably gonna be jazz.

是啊。

Yeah.

你懂吧？

You know?

你就是能感觉到。

You just sort of know.

我小时候是听金属乐的。

I was into metal when I was a kid.

重金属啊，天哪。

And heavy metal Oh, god.

没错。

Yeah.

重金属的视觉符号我一眼就能认出来。

The iconography of heavy metal I you know heavy metal straight away.

就是那个创造了Eddie角色的家伙，你知道的，那种

Bloke who invented that Eddie character, you know, the kind

铁娘子乐队的。

In Iron Maiden.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道这个剧院吗？

Did you know about this theatre?

你认识Eddie吗？

Do you know Eddie?

又恐怖又酷，

Horrible, cool,

超棒的摇滚。

cool rock.

我认识。

I do.

嗯，是的。

Well, yeah.

我是说，只是

Mean, just

我上过大学。

I went to university.

对。

Yeah.

你躲不开这些事的。

You can't avoid these things.

总有些人我跟他们并不太熟。

There's always someone I wasn't particularly intimate on.

我全家都喜欢铁娘子乐队，我是听着他们的歌长大的。

My whole family's into Iron Maiden, and I grew up listening to Iron Maiden.

哇。

Wow.

他们售卖的唱片最棒的地方在于，不仅有令人惊叹的专辑封面——埃迪的专辑封面。

And the the best thing about the the records that they sold, not only were they they were the amazing album cover, the Eddie album cover.

唱片本身还被塑造成了埃迪的面部轮廓。

The records themselves were shaped like Eddie's features.

所以它们不是圆形的，而是被切割成...对。

So instead of being circular, they were cut into Yeah.

根据插画形状特制的。

The shape of the drawings.

是啊。

Yeah.

这太不可思议了，说明他们显然更重视形象而非音乐品质。

So that's amazing because that shows they they cared considerably more about image than music quality.

那肯定要花不少功夫。

And that would have been a lot of work.

唉，我实在坚持不下去了。

Well, I couldn't hang on.

等一下。

Hang on.

直接告诉我我们之前说到哪了。

Just tell me what we started.

我们刚才在说什么来着？

What were we saying here?

嗯，这是我了解到的另一件事。

Well, this is this is something else I learned.

这是图画唱片。

It's a picture discs Yeah.

音质非常糟糕。

Really bad sound quality.

是啊。

Yeah.

这我完全相信。

I can believe it.

因为那只是张纸片。

Because it's a bit of paper.

我刚才还以为你在批评我制作的音乐水平。

I thought you were criticizing the musicianship if I made them for a second.

我做梦都没想过要做这种事。

Never dreamed of doing such a thing.

我想听听Throbbing Gristle的《20位爵士放克大师》。

I wanna hear about 20 jazz funk greats by Throbbing Gristle.

是啊。

Yeah.

我们该听说过Throbbing Thea吗？

Should we have heard of Throbbing Thea?

你听说过

Have you heard of

Throbbing？当然听过。

Throbbing Of course.

我们甚至还委托了一篇关于他们的专题文章。

We even had a p I commissioned a piece about them.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

大约一两年前，本·伊斯顿写的。

About a year two years ago, Ben Easton wrote it.

所以他显然还没读过。

So he obviously hasn't read it.

而我现在已经读了

And now I've read

一篇论文。

a paper.

你是《泰晤士报文学增刊》的编辑吗？

Are you the editor of the TLS?

总之，跟我们说说悸动软骨乐队吧。

Anyway, tell us about Throbbing Gristle.

它正在快速推进。

It's just moving swiftly on.

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

这太羞辱人了。

It's humiliating.

继续说吧。

Go on.

悸动软骨乐队是...我我我又一次，我在约翰·皮尔的节目还是什么上听到过他们的唱片，你知道的，深夜用我的小晶体管收音机收听。

Throbbing Gristle were I I I again, I heard one of the records on John Peel or something like that, you know, late at night listening to my little transistor radio.

对。

Yeah.

然后某种程度上正因为如此，这就是我的意思。

And then I sort of because of that, that's what I mean.

这有点像音乐，唱片封套就像一扇门，让我接触到各种原本永远不会了解的知识。

It's sort of like music the sleeves of of records were sort of gateway drug into all sorts of knowledge that I'd wouldn't have ever come across.

这几乎是一种教育，因为里面包含了

It's almost an education because there's

文化参照。

cultural reference.

这么说是因为它真的很简单，哦天哪，我当时多蠢啊。

Said that because it's a it's a really easy, oh, dear, what an idiot I was.

所以我从没听说过包豪斯，你知道的，就是二战前德国的那个艺术运动。

So I'd never heard of of the Bauhaus, you know, as the art movement in Germany before the second world war.

以及它带来的一切影响，所以听众或TLS的读者都知道包豪斯是什么，以及它对从家具到建筑等各个领域的影响。

And everything it led to, so, you know, as everyone who listens to this or reads the TLS will know what the Bauhaus is and what influence it's had on everything from furniture to architecture and everything else in between.

所以我完全不了解这些，但当时有个叫'包豪斯'的乐队。

So I didn't know any of that, but there was a band called Bauhaus.

是啊。

Yeah.

那是我喜欢的音乐。

It was music I liked.

我买了他们的唱片，发现唱片标签上的设计是包豪斯风格的建筑图案。

I bought that their records and realized that their the design on the label of the records was a Bauhaus construction.

然后去图书馆借了一本同样名为《包豪斯》的书，那是本黑色书脊的泰晤士与哈德逊出版社的书。

And then went to the library and got out a book which was also called Bauhaus, which is a little black spine sort of Thames And Hudson.

知道吗

Do

你知道吗？

you know what?

我们有篇DJ Taylor写的关于果酱乐队的文章。

We had a piece about by a guy called DJ Taylor about the jam.

他说果酱乐队是个很好的例子，乐队成员本身也是学者，他们基本上都去过图书馆。

And he was saying the jam was a really good example of a band where people there were it was inside it were also didax, and they'd basically gone they had libraries.

他们去过图书馆。

They went to libraries.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你还能看到对奥登这类人的明确引用。

And you got references, deliberate references to Orden or someone like that.

他们不仅展示了自己的学识，还留下了一笔遗产——让后来者发现这些引用时会想：这是什么？

And not only were they showing that they educated themselves, they left a legacy of people who would have found a reference and and thought, well, what's that?

然后就会去查个明白。

And then gone off and found it.

然后...

And and then and

我觉得这某种程度上可以看作知识的传播轨迹——要知道大学曾经是知识的宝库。

This is sort of, I think, that you can kind of trace this dissemination of knowledge because, like, universities used to be the repositories of knowledge.

以前必须上大学才能学到真正高深的知识。

You had to go to university to learn anything really proper properly clever.

但只有那些上过私立学校的富家子弟才有资格进去。

But you could only go there if you were really rich and went to a private school.

但后来大学教育民主化了，所有这些文法学校的男生女生都上了大学。

But then they democratized university education and all these grammar school boys and girls went to to uni.

然后像雷德利·斯科特这样的人，对。

And then they people like Ridley Scott, for example Yeah.

或者比如大卫·贝利。

Or or David Bailey, for example.

那些来自非上流社会背景的人，他们后来接触到了文化和知识，对。

People who who come from a non posh background, and then they have access to culture and knowledge Yeah.

这种影响会扩散开来。

And it and that spreads.

然后它会进一步扩散到流行文化中。

And then it that spreads even further out into popular culture.

你甚至能在埃塞克斯一家商店的45转唱片封套上看到它，我可以去买来学习密斯·凡·德·罗这类人物的所有知识。

And you get it on the sleeve of a 45 record in a shop in Essex, and I can go and buy it and learn all about Mies van der Rohe and all that sort of thing.

是啊。

Yeah.

关于在唱片封套上偶遇艺术这件事特别值得一提。

Something in particular about coming across art on a record sleeve.

这让我有点联想到滑板文化，你如何能在特定情境中邂逅艺术、音乐和文学引用——这不是自上而下的，艺术和这些引用几乎像是次要的，依附于你真正热爱的事物。

It sort of reminds me a bit of skateboard culture as well, how you can kind of come across art and music and literary references in a particular context that is it's not top down, and it's still it's almost like the art, and these references are secondary to this other thing which you know you love.

所以它有种不具威胁的特质，而且很民主。

So there's something nonthreatening about it, and it's democratic.

是否要深入探索完全取决于你自己，你并不知道它们已经被懂行的人判定为优秀作品。

And it's up to you whether you follow-up on them, and you don't know that they have already been judged to be good by someone else who knows.

就像你提到的滑板文化，我认为每一代人都有自己的入门方式，而且必须是老一辈人、你们的父母无法理解的东西。

Like you say about skateboard culture, it's it's I think each generation has its own way in and it's it has to be something that that the old people, your olds don't get.

是啊。

Yeah.

正是如此。

Exactly.

你知道，他们根本不明白那是什么。

You know, they don't understand what it is.

为什么你在

Why what you see in

那个？

that?

正是。

Exactly.

这就是最酷的地方，抱歉，你谈论唱片封面艺术的方式在于它是由年轻人设计给年轻人的。

And that's what's so cool, sorry, about the way you're talking about record sleeve art is that it was designed for young people by young people.

所以有一种真正的

So there's a real sense of

对。

Yeah.

你提出的观点是民主实际上是全方位的，因为没人知道它的价值。

The you make the point that the democracy actually goes in all directions because because no one knew the value of it.

他们让未经考验的人有机会尝试。

They let untried people have a poppeter.

是的。

Yeah.

所以它让我当时就在那里，准确地说。

So it gave me I was in the the exactly.

你已经做了多少张唱片封面了？

And you've done how many record sleeves you've

为

done for

九十年代初？

Early nineties?

老实说，我不知道。

I don't know, to be honest.

很多。

A lot.

许多。

Many.

第一首曲目是什么？

What's the first track?

Radiohead。

Radiohead.

确实，我认为将任何音乐转化为艺术表现都是非常困难的。

And indeed, I mean, I think all music to then turn it into an artistic representation is very hard.

你如何为Radiohead设计专辑封面？

How do you go about designing a cover for Radiohead?

你是否会

Do you do you

每次情况都不太一样。

It sort of differs from time to time.

在很多方面，我其实不需要做太多，因为音乐本身已经包含了这些元素。

I it's in many ways, I don't really have to do very much because it's there in the music.

你当时在录音现场吗？

And you're there at the recording?

是啊。

Yeah.

这挺有意思的，不是吗？

That's kind of interesting, isn't it?

当他们去法国那座漂亮的城堡录音时，你也

That you're so you when they go off to their lovely chateau in France to record, you're

一同在场。

there as well.

通常只有那些破败、可怕、闹鬼、疯狂的地方

Was only the ones normally, it's sort of decrepit, horrible, haunted, mad

但你的确在场。

But you are there.

你在那里是作为创作过程的一部分吗？

Are you there but you're there as part of the process?

没错。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

那么

And what are

你在那里的时候都做些什么呢？

you doing while you're there then?

你是在吸收灵感然后

Are you soaking it up and then

没错。

Yeah.

我想，通常我会有一些想要表达的想法。

I I guess, normally, I I kind of normally have some ideas that I want to express.

通常的计划是，我会利用电台司令唱片封面的媒介，把我的想法传达给大众。

And the plan normally is that I will use the media of Radiohead's record covers to get my ideas out to the general public.

但这方法其实不太奏效。

But that doesn't really work.

所以当我在那里时，你们就听着音乐。

So and while I'm there, that you listen to the music.

然后我发现音乐本身会吸引出它的艺术作品，就像在钓鱼一样试图捕捉它究竟是什么。

And then I I kind of find that the music draws its artwork itself and really is fishing for it and trying to catch what it is.

他们是个相当有合作精神的团队。

And they're quite a collaborative bunch.

我是说，根据我读过的采访，他们看起来是个非常友好且善于合作的团队。

I mean, of this interview that I read, they they seem like quite a nice collaborative bunch.

这有点像宗教静修之类的活动。

It's slightly like religious retreat or something.

所以大家会在用餐时间碰面聊天，诸如此类。

So everyone, you know, we kind of meet at mealtimes and talk and stuff like that.

然后各自去做自己的事，偶尔也会聚在一起。

And then everyone goes off and does their own things or sometimes come together.

就像身处一个怪异的修道院。

It's like being in a in a weird in a nunnery.

我们其实就是一群修女。

We're we're a bunch of nuns, really.

一个摇滚修道院。

A rock and roll nunnery.

摇滚修道院。

Rock and roll nunnery.

我们该感到沮丧吗，斯坦利？

Should we be depressed, Stanley?

因为你结尾时有点消极，说你现在基本上都在Spotify上听音乐。

Because you you end on a slightly low note, which is I pretty much listen to most of my music on Spotify now.

不过我觉得在线音乐挺好的，因为我发现了许多以前从没听说过的音乐。

It's quite good though to do online music, I think, because I'm finding loads of music I'd never have heard of.

我不得不承认，这比在唱片店淘音乐时发现的还要多。

I had to Even more than when you're in a record shop.

因为我认为这正是理论关于发现的要点。

Because I think that's the point the theory is making about discovery.

哦，天啊。

Oh, man.

现在的唱片店比我年轻时还要糟糕。

Record shops are even worse than when I was young now.

我甚至感到非常胆怯。

I'm even really intimidated.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为

Because

我有点 他们

I've sort of They

去了那些地方

hit the places

现在。

now.

唉，我年轻时总觉得自己不够酷，因为唱片店里的人都比我大，而且个个都超有范儿。

Well, when I was young, I didn't think I was cool enough because everyone was a bit older than me and really cool in a record shop.

现在呢，时光飞逝，我感觉自己活像那个老爷爷角色。

And now, like, time's just really passed and now I'm like, kind of like like that granddad character.

我有...我喜欢给我的留声机买唱片。

I've got I like record for my gramophone.

是啊。

Yeah.

你懂吧，就是那种感觉。

Know, that sort of thing.

现在那些地方都变成潮人聚集地了吧？

Are they crazy hipster places now?

我打赌肯定是。

I bet they are.

嗯，我不知道。

Well, I don't know.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我是说，我以为我已经够潮了。

I mean, I I thought I took quite a thing.

我可能本来会成为潮人的，如果

I I probably would have become a hipster if

我够酷的话。

I was cool enough.

你就是潮人。

You are hipster.

我是吗？

Am I?

是啊。

Yeah.

当然，你就是个潮人。

Of course, you're a hipster.

什么是潮人？

What is a hipster?

斯坦利就是个潮人。

Stanley's a hipster.

不是。

No.

什么是潮人？

What is a hipster?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这没什么帮助。

This isn't helpful.

不是。

No.

在我成长于拉夫堡时，唱片店

At the record shop when I was growing up in Loughborough

的名字叫'很高兴你在这里'。

was called I'm glad you're here.

否则，我们就只会没完没了地谈论

Otherwise, we just go on and on and on about all

各种各样的事情。

sorts of things.

嗯，但是...不。

Well, but Well, no.

我是说，我也...我也住在一个相对较小的镇上。

I mean, I'm I'm I'm also I live I live in a a relatively small town.

我们有两家唱片店，而且它们一点都不让人感到有压力。

We have two record shops, and neither of them are even remotely intimidating.

真的吗？

Really?

那些地方并不令人望而生畏。

They're not intimidating places.

我小时候去的地方叫'左腿菠萝'。

My place I went with as a kid was a place called Left Legged Pineapple.

那更多是...那是店名。

And it was it was more of a that was the name of the shop.

但它更像是一家CD店。

But it was more of a CD shop.

我当时在那里，但即便如此，你还记得我翻找CD架的情形。

I was there and but even then, you remember I remember going through CD racks.

然后制作

And make

另一种拍手声。

a different noise clap.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Exactly.

那是一场表演。

That was a play.

我是说，我们现在已经老了，最糟糕了。

I mean, we're now now we're old we're the worst.

我们在这里有点像怀旧的嬉皮士，

We're kind of nostalgic hipsters here,

不是那种平平淡淡的。

aren't Not that kind of flat flat flat.

但你觉得数字化的艺术品质量下降了？

But do you think the artwork suffered digitally?

我是说，这算是一种论点吗？

Is that an art I mean, is that an argument?

嗯，当我开始制作唱片时，大约是1994年，那时已经是CD时代了。

Well, when I by the time I started making records, which was about 1994, it was already CDs.

那时还有黑胶唱片。

There was vinyl.

因为我记得在我们开始做任何事之前，我和汤姆去了牛津高街上的一家店，像是HNV之类的大唱片行。

Because I remember the first before we did anything, we went into me and Tom went into some shop in Oxford High Street, like HNV or one of the big ones.

那里有高高的天花板，整面墙都挂满了12英寸的黑胶唱片。

They have high ceilings, a great wall covered in 12 inch records.

我们当时就想，好吧，我们必须做出比所有这些都更好的东西。

We were like, right, so we've got to do something better than all of those.

然后我们就想，他们是怎么做到的？

And we're like, do they do it?

我当时就在想，它们大多数都有歌手的面孔在上面。

I was like, are they most of them got faces on them.

那些唱片上印着歌手的脸。

They got the faces of the singer.

我们可不能那样做。

We can't have that.

所以我们还没做这件事。

So we because I haven't done that yet.

你给他们画脸了吗？

You got them the faces?

还没画他们的脸。

Haven't done their faces.

那这是在《Pablo Honey》之前吗？

So is this before was it Pablo Honey?

是第一张专辑

Was it the first

吗？

one?

不是。

No.

那张不是我做的。

I didn't do that one.

你的第一个作品是哪个？

Which one is what was your first one?

第一个作品是单曲，但那是奔驰的。

The first one was a single, but and that's from the Benz.

哦。

Oh.

你做了奔驰的？

You did the Benz?

嗯。

Mhmm.

那你当时知道自己必须做些大事吗？

And so did you did you know you had to do something big?

你是否觉得这必须是一个宣言性的作品？

Would were you feeling like this had to be a statement that you had to do when

当你...哦，天啊。

you when you Oh, god.

我不知道。

I didn't know.

大概24岁左右吧。

Was only about 24 or something.

不是25岁吗？

Don't 25?

我不清楚。

I don't know.

那时候我对任何特定事物都没太大兴趣。

At the time, I wasn't really interested in anything in particular.

我只是想...我觉得自己当时想做艺术品。

I just want I think I'd wanted to do artwork.

但我并不是真的想搞艺术。

I didn't really want to do art.

我只是随性而为

I Did just by you

你有没有因为作品没被挂在墙上而感到沮丧过？

find yourself ever feeling frustrated that it wasn't on a wall?

像画作那样？

Like a painting?

是的。

Yeah.

我是说，你创作的所有这些艺术品，这些美丽的东西，你有没有稍微希望它们能被挂在墙上？因为你知道，在唱片店里，除非你把它拿出来，否则只能看到大约三分之二的部分。

I mean, that all of the the artwork that you've done, these beautiful things that you'd created, you did you ever feel slightly like you wanted it to be on a wall rather than you know, if you think of a record shop, you could only unless you pulled it out, you'd only see kind of two thirds of it.

除非他们卖了很多，然后

Unless they sold loads and then

是的。

they Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他们会把它挂在墙上。

They put it on the wall.

是啊。

Yeah.

其实没有。

Not really.

没有。

No.

因为第一次在唱片店看到Benz的唱片时，我记得是在诺丁汉还是什么地方发行的。

Because the first time I saw the Benz in a record shop, I think it came out and we were we in Nottingham or somewhere.

我走进唱片店就在想，不知道这张有没有上架。

I went into a record shop and I was like, I wonder if it's out.

当时它就摆在保罗·韦勒的《Stanley Road》旁边，那张封面是彼得·布莱克设计的。

I was up there next to Paul Weller record actually, Stanley Road that Peter Blake had done.

我就紧挨着彼得·布莱克的作品。

I was right next to Peter Blake.

说实话，这比挂在墙上更有意义。

To be honest, it's better than being on a wall.