本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
斯特里克兰主教，非常感谢您参与这次对话。
Bishop Strickland, thank you so much for doing this.
您如何看待以色列当局在棕枝主日关闭圣墓教堂的举动？
What do you make of the closure of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher by Israeli authorities on Palm Sunday?
嗯，特克尔，可能自从我上次看到的消息之后，情况又有了些变化，但看起来他们最终还是决定开放教堂之类的。
Well, really, Tucker, probably some things have developed even since the last thing I saw, but it looked like they were deciding to open it after all or whatever.
特克尔，对我来说，这本质上是我们正在目睹的邪恶所带来的后果，我认为我们需要在这一背景下认真对待它。
To me really, Tucker, this comes down to a consequence of the evil that we see that we're witnessing, and I think we need to pay attention to it in that context.
正如我们之前讨论的，任何国家、任何实体，以任何理由大规模摧毁平民生命，都是在道德上不可接受的。
As we already discussed, the large scale destruction of civilian life is never morally justifiable by any nation, by any entity, for any reason.
这根本不行。
It's just not.
对我来说，圣墓教堂的关闭——对我们而言是圣地的核心——圣地有太多神圣之地，但关闭这座教堂、禁止棕枝主日的游行，是这个世界在许多方面严重偏离正轨的悲惨后果。我们必须以冷静、慈爱、清晰的态度表明：不，我们不能允许这种情况发生。
And to me, the closure of the Holy Sepulcher, the holy shite for us, there's so many in The Holy Land, but the closure of that and not allowing the procession of Palm Sunday is a tragic consequence of just how far off the mark really the world is at this point in so many ways, and what's going on there, we must speak calmly, lovingly, clearly that no, we can't allow this.
对我来说，关闭教堂只是众多悲剧性后果中的一个，我们必须正视它，并不断回归到这一原则：大规模摧毁平民生命在道德上永远无法被正当化。
And the closure to me is just one of many tragic consequences where this has to be addressed, and we've got to keep going back to that principle that the large scale destruction of civilian life can never be morally justified.
阿门。
Amen.
我很高兴听到至少有一位美国宗教领袖如此清晰地表达这一点。
And I'm glad to hear at least one religious leader in The United States say that so clearly.
我认为任何信奉基督教的人都会认同这是信仰的基础部分。
I think that any believing Christian would agree with that as foundational part of the faith.
但你听到的却恰恰相反，我想稍后问一下关于这一点的问题。
But you're hearing just the opposite, and I want to ask about that in just a minute.
你似乎并不认为圣墓教堂的关闭是出于安全考虑。
You don't seem like you believe that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher was closed for safety reasons.
说实话，塔克，我不太清楚，也许对那些做决定的人来说，这就是原因。
Well, I really don't know, Tucker, and maybe for some making those decisions, that's the reason.
但为什么会这样呢？
But why is it?
为什么它会被认为是一个因周围混乱而变得不安全的地方？
Why would it be judged to be a place that is unsafe Because of this chaos that surrounds it.
是的
Yeah.
所以就像我说的，我认为这是我们所看到的一切的后果，这些行为是不道德的，并以非常显著的方式破坏着人类。
So like I said, I think it's a consequence of everything we're seeing, which is immoral and is destructive to humanity in I mean, in in very significant ways.
你是一个有历史眼光的人，而我们都应当成为有历史意识的人。
You're a man of history, and we all need to be people of history.
如果我们回顾历史，这些日子将在历史上被标记为一个极其毁灭性的时期，类似于我们过去一百年、两百年、两千年中所看到的那些时刻——当这类道德扭曲开始全面蔓延时，我们必须发声。
And if we look at history, these days will be marked in history as a very devastating time, similar to things that we can look back in the last one hundred years, two hundred, two thousand years, that when these kind of moral aberrations begin to just take over, we need to speak up.
我真的不知道关闭圣墓教堂的动机是什么。
And I really don't know the motivation for the closure of the Holy Sepulcher.
我的意思是，我可以推测很多可能性。
I mean, I can surmise a lot of things.
我听说的关于可能重新开放或部分开放的消息，我不知道这些是否准确。
The possible reopening or partial that I've heard about, I don't know if even that's accurate.
这正是我知道的，你们和我们所有人所面临的困境：太多错误信息，太多虚假言论，真的很难分辨什么是真实的。
That's part of, I know, what you're finding, and what we're all finding is so much misinformation, so many false messages, it's really hard to know what is true.
是的。
Yes.
这就是为什么我认为这至关重要，我会不断重复这一点：我们绝不能将对平民生命的大规模破坏和毁灭视为道德上可以接受的。
And that's why I think it's so important, and I will be a broken record repeating, we can never justify the large scale destruction and devastation of civilian life as morally justifiable.
我们不能这么做。
We can't do that.
我认为，无论我们正面临怎样的混乱，都必须不断回到这个基本立场。
And I think we have to keep going back to that home base with all the chaos that we're all dealing with.
我认为我们可以指出的一点是，基督教的核心教义，无论是否故意，常常成为攻击目标。
I think one of the things that we can say is that Christianity targeted or not the core tenets of Christianity, whether on purpose or not, is often in the crosshairs.
我们今天早上在耶路撒冷与人交谈时了解到，没有任何犹太会堂被完全关闭。
We know that I believe talking to people in Jerusalem this morning that there were no synagogues completely closed.
我们知道，在两次世界大战期间，圣墓教堂从未被关闭。
And we know that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher was not closed during the last two world wars.
我们知道，原本计划由一名天主教领袖和另外三人共同主持一场直播礼拜，但这一安排被禁止了。
We know that the idea was to have a Catholic leader and three others in there for a livestream service, and that was banned.
因此，很难理解这究竟是如何以安全为由实施的。
So it's hard to understand how this was done for safety reasons.
而且，我并不知道以色列世俗政府拥有圣墓教堂，或者顺便说一句，拥有圆顶清真寺，或东耶路撒冷任何其他由他人所有的宗教建筑？
And moreover, I wasn't aware that the government, the secular government of Israel, owned the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, or by the way, the Dome Of The Rock, or any other religious building owned by someone else in East Jerusalem?
我的意思是，这种权力从何而来？你们凭什么可以随意关闭别人的教堂？
I mean, where does this authority come from that you can just close someone else's church?
嗯，别以为这是真正的权威，这纯粹是极权主义的逻辑：我们有力量，我们有炸弹，我们可以为所欲为。
Well, don't think it is true authority, and it's basically totalitarian saying, we've got the power, we've got the bombs, we can do what we want.
而当我们回顾历史、审视当下时，这种态度无疑是最令人恐惧的。
And that is, again, as we look at history and we look at this moment, that is about as scary as it gets to to have that attitude.
遗憾的是，我们正目睹这种态度的出现。
And sadly, we're we're seeing that attitude.
我们拥有力量，所以我们掌握着主导权。
We are the ones with the power, so we are the ones calling the shots.
别管什么道德不道德了。
Forget what is moral.
忘记什么是真实的。
Forget what is true.
忘记什么是历史先例。
Forget what has historic precedent.
我的意思是，我们两人在过去几年里都听腻了‘前所未有’这个词，因为它总是被挂在嘴边。
I mean, I'm sure both of us, for several years now, I get tired of the word unprecedented because we hear it all the time.
但我们正生活在一个前所未有的时代。
But we're living in unprecedented times.
因此，我们更需要回归到生命和信仰的基本支柱。
For all the more reason, we need to go back to foundational pillars of life and faith.
当然，作为一位天主教主教，耶稣基督就是我们不断回归的支柱——聆听他，效法他的人生榜样，而他的榜样与任何暴力行为背道而驰。
Of course, as a Catholic bishop, Jesus Christ is that pillar that we keep returning to, listening to him, looking at the model of his life, which flies in the face of anything violent.
这并不意味着他没有直面他那个时代的严重问题。
And that doesn't mean that he was not addressing the terrible issues of his side.
我刚才提到，你用了‘瞄准’这个词，而十字架正是耶稣基督受难的地方。讽刺的是，塔克，我相信你也很清楚：以我作为主教和神父的经验，圣周总是事情被推到风口浪尖的时刻，虽然历史上具体的问题和情境各不相同，但圣周总能让我们重新思考耶稣基督是谁。
I mean, mentioned, you used the phrase in the crosshairs, cross is where Jesus Christ died, and ironically, Tucker, and I'm sure it isn't lost on you, that in my experience as a bishop and a priest, Holy Week is always a time where things are in the crosshairs, and it's different issues and different situations historically, but there's something about Holy Week that calls us back to who is Jesus Christ.
我们相信他吗？
Do we believe him or not?
如果我们相信，就必须以他的光明为道德指引。
And if we do, we must morally be guided by his light.
我们必须这样做。
We must.
这表明这里还有其他事情正在发生，或许受到我们周围正在进行的精神战争影响，基督徒成为目标，因为从根本上说，这是一种反对暴力对待无辜者和摧毁无辜者的生命的宗教。
It suggests that there's something else going on here, perhaps influenced by the spiritual war ongoing around us, that Christians would be the target since it is at its core a religion that opposes violence against innocence and the destruction of innocence.
因此，在这里，我的意思是，一个极权政权——至少在你我心中所理解的那样——会针对其敌人施加暴力。
And so here, I mean, a totalitarian regime, at least as you think of it in your mind, or I do, targets violence against its enemies.
它针对的是那些威胁。
It's the, you know, the threats.
再没有什么比四位基督教神职人员站在空荡荡的教堂里直播圣事更无威胁的了，但他们却盯上了这些人。
There's nothing less threatening than four Christian clergymen standing in an empty church live streaming the sacraments, but they went after those guys.
这说明了什么？
So what does that tell you?
在所有敌人中，为什么他们偏偏针对
Of all the enemies, why are they in
真的，塔克，这告诉我的是，真理是令人恐惧的。
Really, Tucker, what it tells me is that truth is threatening.
如果你想想圣周的戏剧性场景——我们天主教徒此刻正身处其中——当耶稣基督站在彼拉多面前时，无论你从何种信仰视角来看，这都是历史事实：拿撒勒的耶稣站在彼拉多面前，彼拉多是驻扎在耶路撒冷的罗马帝国领袖，彼拉多问：真理是什么？
And if you think about the drama of Holy Week, which we in the Catholic faith are in the midst of, when Jesus Christ is before Pilate, and that is historic reality from whatever your faith perspective, this Jesus of Nazareth stood before Pilate, the leader of the Roman Empire that was stationed there in Jerusalem, and Pilate says, what is truth?
而当时在场的群众，甚至彼拉多本人，都被这位耶稣所震慑，我们知道并相信，祂就是道成肉身的真理。
And the the mob that was there, Pilate himself, everyone was threatened by this Jesus who we know, we believe, is truth incarnate.
祂就是真理，而当祂站在那里时，塔克，我认为这正是那些不活在真理中、也不谦卑寻求真理的人所恐惧的——而我们所有人都必须如此寻求。
He is the truth, and as he's standing there, really, Tucker, I think that is what's threatening to those who are not living by the truth and humbly seeking the truth, which we all have to do.
我并不声称自己已经完全明白了所有事，但我仰望基督，因为祂就是真理。
I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I look to Christ because he is the truth.
对于那些推动关闭圣地、攻击无辜者的人而言，他们真正恐惧的不是某种宣传，而是真实的真理。
For those who are promoting all of these things, closure of holy sites and attack of innocent people, they are definitely threatened by the truth, not by some propaganda, but by the real truth.
他们觉得这很可怕，而在我看来，皮扎瓦拉枢机主教和其他人所做的——只是进行一场小型的直播——之所以令人恐惧，是因为它在宣告真理，而这真理开始唤醒那些心存善意的人，无论他们是否有信仰，都会让人的本能发出疑问：等等，这不对。
They find it threatening, and to me that really what Cardinal Pizzavala and the others were trying to do, just a live stream, very small scale, really, that was threatening because it's about proclaiming truth that really begins to cause people of good hearts, whether they have faith or not, it causes the human instinct to say, wait a minute.
怎么回事？
What's going on?
当他们听到真相时，这会带来扰乱。
When they hear truth, that is disruptive.
并不是以暴力的方式，而是因为真相能穿透一切。
Not in a violent way, but just because truth cuts through it all.
他们害怕的就是这个。
That's what they're afraid of.
我真心相信这一点。
I truly believe that.
我们仍然处于四旬期，正一步步接近圣周，也就是复活节前的那些日子，在这段时间里，我们被召与耶稣一同走过他的苦难、死亡，最终，怀着感恩之心迎接他的复活。
So we're still in the middle of Lent, inching closer and closer to Holy Week, the days leading up to Easter, when we are called to walk alongside Jesus through his suffering, his death, and then finally, gratefully, his resurrection.
从来没有比现在更好的时机来承诺更多地祈祷。
And there's never been a better time to commit to more prayer.
如果这听起来值得追求，我们诚挚推荐下载Hallow应用，我们每天早上吃早餐时都会谈到它。
If that sounds worth pursuing, we sincerely recommend downloading the Hallow app, which we talk about every morning at breakfast in my house.
Hallow 提供数千种祈祷、冥想和音乐选择，帮助你更深入地体会基督的苦难，聆听上帝的声音。
Hallow offers thousands of prayers, meditations, music choices to help draw you deeper into the passion and listen for God's voice.
耶稣为每一个人而死，没有任何例外。
Jesus died for every person, no exceptions.
这个月尤其要记住他的牺牲。
This month especially, remember his sacrifice.
今天就下载 Hallow，以一种你永远不会忘记的方式每天与主建立联系。
Download Hallow today to connect with the Lord on a daily basis in a way that you will not forget.
我们家完全沉迷其中了。
We are completely hooked in my house.
真的不是开玩笑。
No kidding at all.
literally 每天我们都会谈到它。
Literally, every day we talk about it.
有很多应用或者消磨时间的东西。
Lots of apps or time wasters.
Hallow 正好相反。
Hallow is the opposite.
前往 hallow.com/tucker 领取三个月免费服务。
Get three months free at hallow.com/tucker.
我们真诚而热忱地推荐。
We sincerely, passionately recommend.
新年已经到来，但这并不意味着你必须彻底改变整个生活，尽管有些人声称如此。
So the New Year is here, but that does not mean you've gotta overhaul your whole life despite claims to the contrary.
你不需要采取极端措施。
You don't have to take drastic measures.
稍作一些调整，你就会好很多。
Make a few changes here and there, and you'll be a lot better off.
你可以从 pantry 里的零食开始。
And you can start with the snacks in your pantry.
说实话，标准美国薯片品牌的产品相当令人反感，含有大量化学成分，让你感到沉重和胀气。
Now products from standard American chip brands are, let's be honest, pretty repulsive, filled with chemicals that make you feel heavy and bloated.
它们的味道也不怎么样。
They don't even taste that good.
对你也没好处。
They're not good for you.
我们推荐升级为马萨薯片。
We recommend an upgrade with masa chips.
马萨薯片是吃得健康却不觉得在节食的最简单方式。
Masa is the easiest way to eat clean without feeling like you're on a diet.
这些薯片只含有三种成分。
The chips contain three ingredients.
就这些。
That's it.
有机玉米、海盐、100%草饲牛肉脂，仅此而已。
Organic corn, sea salt, 100% grass fed beef towel, and that is it.
没有种子油，没有神秘化学物质，只有真正的食物。
No seed oils, no mystery chemicals, just food, actual food.
而且它们非常棒，吃完后感觉很棒。
And they're amazing, and you feel great after.
你不会觉得沉重。
You don't feel weighed down.
我们最近特别喜欢意大利面酱口味，但所有口味都很棒。
We particularly enjoyed the carbonara flavor lately, but they're all great.
你想试试吗？
You wanna give them a try?
访问 masachips.com，或者 masachips.com/tucker。
Visit masachips.com, masachips.com/tucker.
使用代码 Tucker 可享受首单 25% 折扣，或者点击视频描述中的链接，也可以扫描二维码领取这个超值优惠。
Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order, or you can click the link link in the video description, or you can scan the QR code to claim this outstanding offer.
如果你不想在线下单，可以在全国任何一家 Sprouts 超市买到。
And if you don't feel like ordering online, you can buy them nationwide at your local Sprouts supermarket.
赶紧去拿几包吧，别被别人抢光了。
Stop by and pick up a couple of bags before somebody else does.
最令人不安的真相之一就是，暴力并不是答案。
One of the truths that seems the most threatening is that violence is not the answer.
是的。
Yeah.
所以
So that
抱歉，你说什么？
I'm sorry?
世界的权力并不是答案。
Well, the power of the world isn't the answer.
这才是真正让他们恐惧的，也是他们不希望普通大众心中和头脑中接受的观念。
That is what threatens them, and that's what they don't want to get into the hearts and minds of just everyday people.
他们不希望‘战争并非答案’这个观点传播开来。
They don't want that word to get out there that war isn't the answer.
有时候，比如天主教会，就有一套关于正义战争的教义，规定非常严格明确，可能极少有战争真正符合这个标准，而这场战争也存在严重疑问。
Sometimes it I mean, the the church, the Catholic church, has a doctrine of justifiable war, which is pretty strict and pretty clear, and probably very few wars have qualified, and there's serious questions about this war.
我认为这几乎是毫无争议的。
I think it's pretty much unqualified.
是的。
Yes.
但这就是我们必须持续关注的。
But that's what we have to keep looking at.
看看这些原则吧，塔克，我想鼓励你的观众，也鼓励我们所有人——其实我在很多情况下也只是众多观众中的一员。
Look at the principles, and and really, Tucker, what I would encourage your viewers and all of us, I mean, I'm just one of the viewers in many situations.
我是一位没有教区的主教，但我确实肩负着使徒的使命，我对此非常认真。我想对自己、对你说，塔克，作为一个追求真理的正直之人，以及所有参与其中的人，我们需要深呼吸，平复内心，仅仅去寻求真理。
I'm a bishop who doesn't even have a diocese anymore, but I do have an apostolic call that I take very seriously, and I say to myself, to you, Tucker, as a good man seeking truth, and all of us who are are in this, we need to take a breath, we need to calm our hearts, and we need to simply seek the truth.
我相信，我感到有责任向世界宣告：我们知道真理。
I believe, and I feel compelled to proclaim to the world, we know the truth.
真理使人自由。
The truth sets us free.
那就是耶稣基督。
It's Jesus Christ.
当然，这正是罗马人和犹太领袖想要除掉的威胁。
And certainly, that was the threat that the Romans and the Jewish leaders wanted to get rid of.
这是历史事实。
That's historic reality.
他们密谋摆脱这个真理问题，在很多方面，我们看到同样的事情一再重演。
They plotted to rid themselves of this truth problem, and in in many ways, we see the same thing repeated.
我的意思是，它被以各种方式掩盖了，但是
I mean, it gets masked in a lot of ways, but
是的。
Yes.
我每天为世界上的领导人、为每个国家的领袖祈祷，愿那些此刻拥有权力与责任的人，能够回归这些基本准则。
All and I pray daily for the leaders of the world, for every nation, for leaders to who have the power and the responsibility in this moment to go back to those basic principles.
他们需要深吸一口气，问自己：这是真的吗？
They need to take a deep breath and ask themselves, is this true?
我所倡导的、我所做的一切，是否关乎那使人得自由的真理？
What what I'm promoting, what I'm doing, is it about the truth that sets us free?
当我们忽视真相时，正是我们最容易被暴力和邪恶束缚的时候，而我们正亲眼目睹这一切在当下通过电视屏幕、手机屏幕和广播中上演。
And when we ignore the truth, that is when we are the most bound by violence and evil, and we're seeing it played out in our lifetime right in these moments on the TV screen, on our phone screens, on the airwaves.
我们看到，忽视真相会带来后果，而这最终关乎我们每一个人。
We're seeing ignoring truth has consequences, and it comes down to each of us individually.
当我们忽视这样一个真相：我是一个有罪的人，需要悔改，需要寻求耶稣基督的生命时，如果我们试图隐藏、忽视或抹除它，它并不会消失。
When we ignore the truth that I am a sinful man who needs to repent, and I need to seek the life that is Jesus Christ, When we try to to hide that, to ignore it, to eliminate it, it doesn't go away.
它不会被消除，就像公元一世纪将耶稣钉在十字架上并不能消除他就是真理这一事实一样；真理不会被抹去，但当我们以为可以回避真理、按自己的方式、凭自己的力量行事时，却会伤害大量无辜者。
It will not be eliminated any more than killing Jesus Christ on a cross in the first century eliminated the truth that he is, truth will not be eliminated, but a lot of innocence can be harmed when we think we can avoid the truth and do it our way and do it with our power.
当我们走上这条道路时，它会在许多方面造成破坏，甚至对那些正在这样做的人也是如此。
When we go down that path, it's destructive in so many ways, even to those individuals that are doing it.
但悲剧在于，有太多无辜者在这其中被吞噬，我们不能简单地将无辜生命之死称为‘附带损伤’；而这种说法本身说明，我们必须极其谨慎，不能让自己的心麻木到只用术语来敷衍。
But the tragedy is there's so many innocents that get lost in it, that we must speak against innocent lives being just term is collateral damage, but that in itself says we have to be very careful about allowing our hearts to hearten that we just use terminology.
对于无辜者的死亡，哦，他们只是附带损伤。
For innocence dying, oh, they're just collateral damage.
作为一位新教徒，我想请你稍作回溯，我经常听到‘正义战争’理论这个说法，我认为它源自奥古斯丁，但我不确定是否正确。
I ask you to go back for a second as a Protestant myself who's often heard the term just war theory, which I think derives from Augustine, but I could be wrong.
你能用通俗易懂的话，给那些不熟悉这个概念的人做个概括吗？
Can you summarize that for people who aren't familiar with what it is just in broad terms?
什么是正义之战？
What's a justified war?
嗯，我无法保证能完整列出所有要点，但总的来说其实很简单。
Well, there are four basic points that I can't claim that I can get all of them as you know, it's pretty simple.
大多数时候，真相其实很简单，但正义战争理论的核心是：战争本应尽可能避免，若必须发动，就必须符合比例原则。
Most of the time the truth is pretty simple, but it has to be the just war theory is based on if war, which should be avoided if at all possible, if it is to be justified, It has to be proportionate.
它不能是先发制人的。
It has to be it can't be preemptive.
坦克，从很多方面来说，这其实回归到自卫权——个人的自卫权，以及国家的自卫权。
Really, Tucker, goes back in a lot of ways to the right to self defense, the right to self defense of one person, the right to self defense of a nation.
这正是正义战争理论的核心。
That is really the core of the Just Four Theory.
必须是真实的威胁，而不是臆想的威胁，也不是未来的潜在威胁，而是切实存在的威胁。
It has to be a real threat, not a perceived threat, not a future threat, but a real threat.
必须成比例。
It has to be in proportion.
我的意思是，我这是从个人之间的正义角度来说的。
I mean, you know, I'm putting it on the the just person to person context.
比如，有人打了你一巴掌，你不能开枪打他。
I mean, somebody slaps you, you don't shoot them.
这并不成比例。
That is not proportional.
是的。
Yes.
必须避免伤害那些与冲突毫无直接关系的无辜者。
It has to avoid harming innocents that are really have nothing to do with whatever the conflict is in any direct way.
这些基本要点就是你需要关注的。
And so those basic points are what you have to look at.
必须有合理的成功预期，即这场战争能够实现它本应保护无辜者的目标。
It has to be it has to have a reasonable expectation of success, that this will accomplish the protection of innocence that it should be about.
这些要点是我们必须不断关注的，正如我所说，人类历史上可能很少有战争能符合所有这些标准。
Those points are what we have to keep looking at, and like I said, there probably aren't many wars in human history that would qualify as meeting all of the criteria.
有些战争符合其中一些标准，但我不确定当前这场冲突——他们甚至都不称其为战争，我认为这向我们传递了某些信息。
Some meet more than others, but I don't know that this present conflict they're not even calling it a war, and I think that tells us something.
但对于这场当前的冲突，我不认为它符合上述任何一点，因为是的，当时确实存在某种威胁，但立即应对这种威胁——而这种威胁似乎是一种可能非常真实但尚属未来的威胁——是否正当呢？
But this present conflict, I don't know that it qualifies on any of those points because, yes, there were some threat there, but was it justifiable to immediately address that threat, which seemed to be a future threat that may have been very real?
我并不声称自己了解所有细节，但我认为领导者们必须更深入地审视这个问题。
I don't claim to know all of that, but I think the leaders are challenged to really look more deeply at that.
当然，关于保护无辜者这一理念，老实说，我从未参与过任何战争决策室，也没有听过真实的内部讨论，但根据我们所看到的情况，似乎我们能够预见并计划好附带损伤——而我们必须明确指出，我们计划中允许无辜者因这一行动而死亡，因为这正是‘附带损伤’真正所指的含义。
And certainly, the the idea that of protecting innocence, honestly, I mean and again, I haven't been in any war rooms or or heard the real discussion, but it it it seems, and what we're seeing, it's like we can expect, and we can plan for the collateral damage, which should be always stated as we can plan for innocents to die because of this action, because that's what collateral damage really is talking about.
所以，我认为这虽然可能不是对正义战争理论最学术的阐述，但这些确实是基本要点。
So that I think is a reasonable, probably not the most scholarly exposition of the just war theory, but those are the basic points.
再说一次，如果有人觉得这太复杂了，那就想想自卫、保卫家园、保护家人吧。
And again, if if people say, oh, it gets too complicated, just think about defending yourself, defending your home, defending your family.
你不能因为邻居在说疯话，就跑去把炸弹放在他家前院。
You can't go out and you have a neighbor that's talking crazy and go and put a bomb in their front yard.
我的意思是，这并不成比例。
I mean that's not proportionate.
这不合理，必须是合理的，我认为正义战争理论最重要的观点之一是可能成功？
That is not reasonable, and it has to be something that is reasonable, And I think one of the greatest points of the Just War theory is likely to be successful?
它是否有可能带来更和平、更安全的结局，不仅针对你直接负责的个体，而是惠及整个世界。
Is it likely to have an outcome that brings more peace, more protection, not just to the individuals that you're specifically responsible for, but brings it to the world.
因此，我认为我们必须诚实地评估正在发生的事情，并承认似乎没有任何国家真正做到了这一点，我热爱美国。
And so I think that we've got to honestly assess what is happening and and acknowledge that no nation seems to be really and and I love The United States.
我从小被培养成一个有爱国心的孩子。
I I was raised as a patriotic kid.
我仍然信奉许多原则，但当我们忽视了国家建国或我们的信仰——无论是基督教还是其他信仰——的基本原则时，这些基本准则必须引导我们，我们不能让民意或政治议程凌驾于这些应当作为支柱、稳定当今世界一切动荡的基本道德价值之上。
I still believe in a lot of the principles, but when we lose sight of the basic principles of our founding as a nation or as of our faith of Christianity or whatever our faith is, those basic principles have to guide us, and we can't allow popular opinion or political agendas to override those basic moral values that should be the pillars that found us, that stabilize everything that is shaking in the world today.
许多人对采用传统的胆固醇健康疗法持犹豫态度。
A lot of people hesitate before getting traditional therapies for cholesterol health.
他们不想一辈子都依赖药片。
They don't want to wind up stuck on capsules for the rest of their lives.
他们更愿意觉得自己能掌控自己的身体护理方式。
Pills, they'd rather feel like they have some say in how they take care of their own bodies.
因此，越来越多的美国人转向更温和的替代方案，使用他们熟悉的成分，比如生姜和石榴。
And that's why more Americans are turning to more gentle alternatives with ingredients they recognize, ingredients like ginger and pomegranate.
其中一种替代方案是Dose胆固醇产品。
One of those alternatives is a Dose Cholesterol.
Dose胆固醇是一款经过临床验证的胆固醇支持补充剂，旨在调节甘油三酯、低密度脂蛋白、高密度脂蛋白和总胆固醇水平。
Dose for Cholesterol is a clinically backed cholesterol support supplement that targets triglycerides, LDL, HDL and total cholesterol levels.
我们知道很多人在使用它，效果非常显著。
We know a bunch of people use it and the results have been overwhelming.
他们不再害怕做血液检查，因为终于，结果变好了，而且他们不用依赖那些奇怪的化学混合物。
They no longer fear having blood work done because at last the results are good and they're not on some kind of weird chemical cocktail.
它确实有效。
It actually works.
如果它无效，我们不会与他们合作。
We wouldn't partner with them if it didn't work.
Dose 使用起来很简单。
Dose is easy to use.
它是一种每天服用的两盎司液体，味道像芒果。
It's a daily two ounce liquid shot that tastes like mango.
哦，没有胶囊，也没有粉末。
Oh, no capsules, no powders.
使用起来非常顺畅。
It's seamless to use.
访问 dosedaily.co/tucker。
Visit dosedaily.co/tucker.
使用代码 Tucker 可享受 35% 折扣。
Use code Tucker for 35% off.
那就是 dosedaily.co/tucker，代码 Tucker，享 35% 折扣。
That's dosedaily.co/tucker, code Tucker, for 35% off.
物有所值。
It's worth it.
今天早上，美国总统——我为他 campaigning 并每天捍卫了十一年的人——发布了一份声明，威胁要摧毁伊朗的民用基础设施，包括伊朗的海水淡化厂和电网。
So this morning, the president of The United States, whom I campaigned for and defended daily for eleven years, not attacking him, but he issued a statement threatening to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Iran, including the desalinization plants and energy grid of Iran.
这似乎是对无辜者的威胁。
And that seems to be a threat against innocence.
我不知道还有其他方式来理解这一点。
I don't know any other way to read it.
你如何评价这一点？
How would you assess that?
这符合正义战争的原则吗？
Is that consistent with a just war?
不，正如你所说，塔克，我们必须承认，直接这样做是错误的，是不道德的。
No, and as you said, Tucker, we have to acknowledge that it is To directly do that is wrong, is immoral.
回到我最初提出的那个基本原则：任何对平民生活的破坏，都不是道德的，都不是正当的行为。
Going back to that basic principle I started with, anytime civilian life is devastated, it's not morally, it's not done morally.
我们不能视而不见，说‘我们不得不这么做’。
It's not something we can just turn a blind eye and say, well, we got to do this.
大规模破坏平民生命在任何情况下都道德上无法被正当化。
The large scale destruction of civilian lives is never morally justified.
正如我所说，如果我像唱片卡壳一样反复强调这一点，那是因为我越思考、越为此祈祷、越关注正在发生的事，就越觉得我们必须停止这一切。
Like I said, if I'm a broken record making that point, I believe I need to be, because the more I think about that, the more I pray about that, the more I look at what's happening, it says, let's put a stop to this.
让我们从这种状态中退一步。
Let's pull back from this.
根据我从新闻中看到的情况，人们确实在讨论某种解决方案，但这些讨论似乎无论在关注度还是影响力上，都远不及那些炸弹和破坏力量。
And I understand from what I see in the news that there are efforts of talking about some sort of solutions, but the talk seems to always have much less focus and much less power behind it than the bombs and the destructive forces.
我想，这或许出于人性使然——当你拥有权力时，很难克制自己不去使用它。
I guess that is, you know, by human nature maybe that's somewhat natural that when you've got the power it's hard to restrain yourself from using it.
我们在许多方面都看到这种情况上演，但正是在这种时刻，个人或国家的道德价值观必须发挥作用，无论是作为个体的领导者，还是领导国家的男性或女性群体，他们都必须不断回归这些原则，自问：这是否正当？
We see that played out in so many ways, but that is where the moral values have to kick in for the individual man or the individual nation, and the leader that is a man or a group of men or women and women that are leading a nation, they need to constantly go back to those principles and asking themselves, is this justifiable?
这是否是道德上可接受的行为？
Is this something that is moral to do?
如果这不道德，我们就该竖起一个巨大的红色警示牌，明确说：我们不会这么做，因为这不仅道德上存疑，更是明显不道德。
And if it's not moral, then we should just put up a big bright red stop sign and say, we're not gonna do this because it is morally questionable, much less clearly immoral.
当我们开始说‘我们必须做一些不道德的事情’时，这就像是目的证明手段的合理性。
And when we go down the path of saying, well, we've got to do some immoral things, I mean, it's like the end justifies the means.
我的意思是，那些长期以来指导国家和个人的历史性基本哲学与逻辑原则。
I mean, some basic principles of philosophical logical thought that have guided nations and individuals through history.
你知道，如果我们走上一条认为目的证明手段合理之路，那么这些手段可能会变得如此不道德，以至于不仅对涉及的个人或国家，而且对全人类都造成毁灭性后果。
You know, if we get on a path where we say the end justifies the means, then the means can become so immoral that it's just devastating for not just the individuals or the nations involved, but for all of humanity.
我们必须非常谨慎，不要走上这条道路，而我担心我们所看到的许多事情已经越过了那条线，仅仅因为‘我们认为，是的，这是邪恶的’。
We've got to be very cautious about going down that path, and I'm afraid that many of the things that we've seen have crossed that line of just saying, we believe, yeah, this is evil.
好的。
Okay.
这是邪恶的，但我们必须为了好的目的而去做。
It's evil, but we've got to do it for the good end.
这是一片非常危险的领域。
That is very dangerous territory.
我认为，这也非常普遍。
Also common, I think.
我的意思是，正如你所说，拥有权力的人往往滥用权力，这是一个常被提及的现象，因为事实确实如此。
I mean, people, as you said, who have power tend to misuse it, an often noted phenomenon, because it's true.
至少在我这一生中，不同的是，我看到一些自称是基督徒的领袖不仅为暴力辩护，还攻击任何质疑暴力使用的人，并用《圣经》来为其辩护。
What's different, at least in my lifetime, is seeing self described Christian leaders not only defend violence, but attack anyone who questions its use and then use the Bible to justify it.
我想我想要表达的是，这里的一个关键斗争在于对基督教作为一种信仰的定义。
That's who I guess what I'm saying is one of the battles here is over what Christianity is as a faith.
这在我看来是一场非常重要的斗争。
And that seems to me a very important battle.
当然，这是一场对话。
Certainly a conversation.
所以，你所看到的一些基督教领袖说：看，《圣经》中从头到尾都有暴力，上帝在某些情况下甚至支持或辩护这种暴力，这在基督徒所谓的《旧约》中有所体现。
So what you're seeing some Christian leaders do is say, well, there's violence throughout the Bible, and God justifies it, in some cases, defends it through what the Christians call the Old Testament.
从始至终，都存在着对无辜者的暴力。
From beginning to end, there's violence against innocence.
因此，这就被视作可以接受的了。
So, it's therefore okay.
你对此有何回应？
What is your response to that?
嗯，塔克，很简单，可能并不令人惊讶，我的回应是耶稣基督。
Well, Tucker, quite simply, probably not surprising, my response is Jesus Christ.
是的。
Yep.
如果我们宣称——我确实如此宣称，并且我尽力而为。
If we claim, which I do, and I do my best.
我的意思是，我是个罪人。
I mean, I'm a sinner.
我总是犯错。
I mess up all the time.
如果我们足够聪明，愿意谦卑地承认这一点，我们每个人都会如此。
We do individually if we're smart enough to be humble enough to acknowledge that.
我们作为国家，也作为个人，都会偏离正轨。
We as nations, and we as individuals, we get off the mark.
我们会犯错，但总可以悔改，重新寻求追随基督的真理。
We mess up, but we can always repent of that and seek again to follow the truth that is Christ.
这就是我想区分的关键所在。
And that's the distinction that I would make.
如果人们自称是基督徒，那我们就是基督的身体，即他的教会，我们必须仰望他。
If people are calling themselves Christians, we are of the body of Christ that is his church, and we have to look to him.
是的，在旧约中有很多毁灭力量的例子，但那并不是我们所生活的世界。
Yes, in the Old Testament there are are many examples of destructive power, but that is is not the world that we live in.
我们相信耶稣基督救赎了一切，而耶稣基督的一个关键要点，正如圣保罗说得很好，我们既不是希腊人也不是罗马人。
We believe that Jesus Christ has redeemed everything, and one of the key points of Jesus Christ, Saint Paul says it very well, we are neither Greek nor Roman.
我们不是单独的国家。
We are not individual nations.
我们是基督徒，而用基督教作为武器去攻击他身体的一部分以对付另一部分，是对耶稣基督信息的误用。
We are Christian, and to use Christianity as a weapon against one part of his body to another part of his body is that's a misuse of the message of Jesus Christ.
如果我们仰望他，我的意思是，他甘愿作为人、作为上帝的儿子被钉在十字架上，但他愿意这样做。
If we look to him I mean, he died on the cross because he embraced that freely as a man and as the son of God, but he was willing to do that.
他甘愿亲身承受最大的暴力，牺牲自己的身体和生命，为的是带来他所赐予的和平。
He was willing to personally receive the greatest violence of destroying his body and his human life for the sake of personally the peace that he brings.
如果我们仰望耶稣基督，就无法为当前所见的暴力行为辩护。
And if we look to Jesus Christ, we can't justify the the violence that we're seeing.
你可以回溯到旧约，但如果你相信耶稣基督是新约，那么他正是从旧约的那个世界中而来。
You can harken back to the Old Testament, but if you believe Jesus Christ is the new covenant, that he I mean, he came out of that world of the Old Testament.
他源自希伯来传统，我们应当完全接纳这一点。
He is of Hebrew origin, and we should embrace that absolutely.
这是历史事实，但他来是要带来新约，并救赎这一切。
That is historical reality, but he came to bring a new covenant and to bring a redemption of all of that.
仅举一例，当我们仰望基督时，他常常说：‘从前你们是这样做的，但如今，借着父差遣我到你们这里，新的方式正在显明。’
And just just one example of what Christ if we look to Christ, he's often saying, yes, we used to do this, but this is the new way that through the father sending me to you is being revealed.
从前是‘以眼还眼，以牙还牙’。
It used to be an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
对我们而言，不能再这样了。
That cannot be that way with us.
他对门徒说，我们必须认真倾听这一点。
He says to his disciples, and we have to really listen to that.
我们可能不喜欢听基督本人的话，但这就是我们被呼召去做的，尤其是当我们自称是基督徒的时候。
We may not like listening to Christ himself, but that is what we're called to, especially if we call ourselves Christian.
正如你指出的，塔克，这可能是我们现在必须面对的最重大问题之一，因为世界上有许多非基督徒，而基督教正以我们所见的方式被篡改和劫持，这破坏了耶稣基督所传递的真理信息，因为我可以想象，人们会说：‘如果这就是基督教的真面目，我曾经考虑过，但如果是这样，我连基督教都不会去关注。’
That is probably, as you point out, Tucker, one of the greatest issues that we have to face now, because there are many non Christians in the world, and for Christianity to be really co opted and hijacked in the way that we're seeing is destructive to the message of truth that is Jesus Christ, because I can imagine people are saying, well, if this is what Christianity is really all about, I've had considered it, but I'm not gonna even look at Christianity if that's what it's about.
这根本不是基督教的真谛。
It's not what it's about.
但当一些声音声称我们可以再次诉诸暴力，摧毁平民，还宣称这是道德的，因为我们自称为基督徒时，这简直是荒谬的，是对基督本人最大的冒犯。
But when voices are saying we can go again, going back to that basic idea of we can destroy civilians violently and in drastic ways, and say that it's moral because we're claiming to be Christian, that's nonsensical, and it's offensive to Christ himself as anything could be.
他是一位和平之人，这并不意味着任人欺凌，真正的和平是尊重我们自己和他人的生命，始终以非暴力的方式寻求那使人得自由的真理。
He is a man of peace, and that it doesn't mean just let yourself be run over, but real peace is about respecting our lives and the lives of others, and always seeking without violence to embrace the truth that sets us free.
所以，我想对那些以旧约为借口的基督徒说：请在基督里给我指出这一点，他们是找不到的。
So I guess what I would say to Christians that are claiming sort of Old Testament justification, show me that in Christ, and they're not going to find it.
如今这已很少见了。
So it's rare these days.
一家真正在美国制造产品的企业，不是仅仅在这里设计或组装，而是从头到尾都在美国本土生产。
A company that actually makes things here in The US, not just designed here or assembled here, actually manufactured here, start to finish in The United States.
布鲁克林床垫公司在亚利桑那州的工厂里生产每一张床垫，而不是在远东的亚利桑那州。
Brooklyn Bedding builds every mattress in their factory in Arizona, Not in the Far East in Arizona.
没有中间商。
No middlemen.
不偷工减料。
No cutting corners.
不外包以节省成本。
No outsourcing to save a buck.
创始人起步时一无所有。
The founders started with nothing.
没有学位。
No degree.
没有企业支持。
No corporate backing.
他们只是学会了这门手艺，建了一家工厂，打造出了真正有效的产品。
Just learned the craft, built a factory, created a product that actually works.
这就是美国的故事。
That's the American story.
我们应该支持它，而我们也确实这样做了。
We ought to support it, and we do.
在这里，我们非常喜爱ThermoBalance床垫系列。
And here we love the ThermoBalance mattress collection.
它极大地改善了这里许多员工的睡眠质量。
It's made a huge difference in the quality of the sleep of a lot of people who work here.
多亏了他们的降温技术，再也不用半夜被热醒了。
No more waking up hot in the middle of night, thanks to their cooling technology.
醒来时你的背部感觉更好了。
Your back feels better when you wake up.
事实上，他们得到了美国整脊协会的推荐。
They're endorsed, in fact, by the American Chiropractic Association.
所以这不仅仅是营销。
So it's not just marketing.
这是真实的。
It's real.
他们还提供一百二十天的试用期。
They also give you a hundred and twenty nights to try it out.
这很长了。
That's a lot.
如果你不喜欢，他们会退货或更换。
If you don't love it, they take it back or swap it out.
毫无麻烦。
No hassle.
他们对自己的产品如此有信心。
That's how confident they are.
访问 brooklynbetting.com。
Visit brooklynbetting.com.
结账时使用促销码 Tucker，全站享受 30% 折扣。
Use the promo code Tucker at checkout for 30% off sitewide.
此优惠在其他任何地方都无法获得。
This offer not available anywhere else.
这看起来像是试图挪用基督教，改变世人对耶稣的理解，而圣周似乎尤其让那些想这么做的人感到困难，因为圣周的整个信息恰恰相反。
It does seem like this is an effort to co opt Christianity and change the world's understanding of Jesus, and it seems like Holy Week maybe is particularly hard for people who want to do that because the whole message of Holy Week is the opposite.
我的意思是，你是神学家，但我觉得耶稣进入耶路撒冷时，这座城市正被外国异教当局占领。
I mean, you're the theologian, but I think Jesus is coming into Jerusalem at a time when it's occupied by foreign pagan authorities.
他们压迫着耶路撒冷的人民，许多旁观者都以为耶稣会用武力解放这座城市。
They're oppressing the people of Jerusalem, and a lot of people watching assume Jesus was going to liberate the city in some using force.
他是王，但他没有骑着战马进来。
He was the king, but he doesn't come in on a war horse.
他骑着一头驴子进来，然后甘愿被折磨致死，因为这场胜利超越了军事上的胜利。
He comes in on a donkey and then submits to being tortured to death because the victory is larger than a military victory.
这是一场最终的胜利。
It's a final victory.
这是一种属灵的胜利。
It's a spiritual victory.
作为一个非神学家的新教徒，我觉得这显然是一个非常明确的信息。
And that seems like the message as a non theologian Protestant, that seems like a very clear message.
但你告诉我，这是真正的信息吗？
But you tell me, is that the message?
迪克，你说得完全正确。
DICKER, you are spot on.
这正是我之前在对话中提到的，圣周是一个充满戏剧性的星期，是一个觉醒并真正理解耶稣基督信息的星期。
And that's why I mentioned earlier in our conversation, Holy Week is a week of drama, and it's a week of waking up and realizing the real message of Jesus Christ.
我的意思是，基督受难的故事本身就包含了这些元素。
I mean, the whole passion story of Christ is the elements there.
我的意思是，犹大·伊斯卡里奥特为什么要背叛基督？
I mean, have Judas Iscariot, who why did he betray Christ?
我当然不敢说自己能读懂他的思想或内心，但种种迹象表明，他背叛基督是因为他想要的是一位许多人期盼的军事领袖。
I mean, I don't claim to be able to read his mind or his heart, but the indications are he betrayed Christ because he wanted the kind of military leader that many wanted.
基督凯旋进入耶路撒冷是一个非常有趣的场景，我们需要不断回溯并深入思考其中真正发生的事情。
Christ's triumphant entry into Jerusalem is it's a very interesting scene that we need to constantly go back to and look at in terms of what's really going on.
就在基督根据圣经记载凯旋进入耶路撒冷之前，经文提到当权者正在密谋杀害拉撒路，就是那个被他从死里复活的人。
Just before Christ as recorded in scripture, just before Christ enters triumphantly into Jerusalem, the the verses are talking about the authorities seeking and plotting to assassinate Lazarus, the one he had raised from the dead.
这在《约翰福音》中被描述为其中最令人惊叹的段落之一，也是整本圣经中最震撼的篇章之一。
And so One of the which is really one of the most it's described in John, and it's one of the most amazing passages in the entire Bible.
耶稣刚刚在那人死后四天将他从死里复活。
Jesus has just raised this man from the dead four days after his death.
他所行的其中一个惊人之举就是，这个人活过来了，但宗教领袖却想杀掉他。
One of the amazing things he did, the guy's alive and the religious authorities want to murder him.
抱歉。
It's like, sorry.
不好意思。
Excuse me.
这太不可思议了。
It's amazing.
确实如此。
It
真的如此。
really is.
戏剧性就在这里。
And it it the drama is right there.
我们必须看到它，并认识到它如何在我们的生活中继续展开。
We have to see it and recognize the way it continues to unfold in our lives.
我的意思是，我不想把任何人称为加略人犹大，但我们需要每个人——包括我自己——认真反思：当我们高喊‘和散那归于耶稣，归于大卫之子’的同时，却试图按照我们的议程来塑造‘大卫之子’，我们是否正走向加略人犹大所认同的方向？这非常危险，最终会导致加略人犹大的毁灭，以及基督真实的、不可避免的受难。
I mean, I don't want to label anyone Judas Iscariot, but we need to ask ourselves, every one of us, and I include myself, we have to be very careful and ask, are we beginning to move in a direction that Judas Iscariot would have approved when we are saying, we want hail Jesus, hail to the son of David, but we want to shape the son of David according to our agenda, that is where it gets very dangerous, and it it culminates in in destruction for Judas Iscariot and apparent I mean, real destruction for Christ.
因为他是真理，因为他是上帝的独生子，世界所能施加的一切都无法毁灭他，因为他超越了受造界。
Because he is truth, because he is god's divine son, what the world can throw at him can't destroy him because he's beyond creation.
他是超越的，他是创造的主，但他为了我们所有人甘愿承受这一切，出于爱。
He is beyond he is the lord of creation, but he allows it to add an out of love for all of us.
你知道，这场景蕴含着如此丰富的意象，对我们所有人都有裨益。
And, you know, in the the con I mean, it's just so rich with images that can be beneficial to all of us.
但为了让我们在这个时代、在这个历史时刻，为这个世界、为这个国家、为天主教会、为基督徒，听见基督对那些正将他钉在十字架上、杀害他的人说：父啊，赦免他们。
But for us to hear Christ in this time, in this moment in our history, for the world, for this nation, for the Catholic church, for Christians, to hear Christ say to those who are literally in the moment nailing him to a cross, killing him, father, forgive them.
他们所做的，他们并不知道。
They know not what they do.
心中拥有这样的慈悲与怜悯，我们确实看到一些圣人曾呼应过这种精神。
To have that kind of mercy and compassion in your heart is and we've seen some saints that have have echoed it.
首位殉道者圣斯德望，就曾效法他的主说出这样的话。
Saint Stephen, the first martyr, echoed his lord in saying that.
但这再次回到了那个问题：威胁在哪里？
But that that is, again, going back to where's the threat?
当我们思考、当世界思考，认为世间权势最终能够得胜时，这种情感是非常具有威胁性的。
That is a very threatening sentiment when you think, when we think, when the world thinks that the powers of the world can ultimately prevail.
听见一个被世界摧毁的人说：父啊，赦免他们。
To hear the man being destroyed by the world saying, Father, forgive them.
他们所做的，他们并不知道。
They know not what they do.
这提醒我们，必须重新调整自己的心灵和思想，去聆听耶稣基督的讯息，并直面我们所面临的一切。
It reminds us that we've got to retune our hearts and our minds to the message of Jesus Christ, and to face everything we're facing.
这就像圣周在我们这个时代再次大规模上演。
That is it's like Holy Week being played out again at large in our time.
那些隐秘的讯息、阴谋和混乱——我的意思是，我们看到一些事情被奉为美好，但其背后却潜藏着黑暗，策划着对无辜者和与这一切毫无关联的生命的毁灭。
The hidden messages and the plottings and the confusing I mean, here we have things being hailed as wonderful, and then underneath it, the underbelly, is a darkness of plotting the destruction of innocence and the destruction of lives that really have nothing to do with this.
因此，我再次回到这个观点：我们必须明白，大规模摧毁平民生命在道德上永远无法被正当化。
So once again I go back to that idea of we have to I mean the gauge has to be the large scale destruction of civilian life can never be morally justified.
而基督的情况是，当时只涉及一个人。
And, you know, with Christ, I mean, it was one man.
但从现实、从宇宙的角度来看，试图杀害耶稣基督——上帝之子、拿撒勒人耶稣，就是杀害他。
But in terms of reality, in terms of the universe, trying to kill Jesus Christ, son of god, Jesus of Nazareth, killing him.
我的意思是，他们确实成功地杀死了他。
I mean, they were successful in killing him.
他死在了十字架上。
He died on the cross.
展开剩余字幕（还有 308 条）
但这是对无辜生命、平民生命的大规模破坏，我们必须不断回到这一原则，用这一视角去审视一切，并敦促以色列、美国、欧洲以及全球的领导人团结起来，倾听耶稣基督的话语，即使那些不信他的人也要听，因为这些话是真实的，只要人们愿意倾听并真正敞开心扉，这些话就会在心中产生共鸣。
But that is large scale destruction of innocent life, of civilian life, And that is the principle we just have to keep going back to, to keep really looking through looking at everything through that lens and urging the leaders of Israel, the leaders of The United States, the leaders of Europe, the leaders of the world to come together and to listen to the words of Jesus Christ, even those who don't believe him, because they are true words, they resonate in hearts if people will just listen and really open their hearts to what he's saying.
我的意思是，我坚信，在世界终结之前，全人类终将接纳耶稣基督。
I mean, certainly, I believe the world will embrace Jesus Christ before it ends.
这是预言，也是逻辑。
That is prophecy, and that is logic.
当世界拥抱真理时，并非每个人都会如此。
When the world will embrace truth, not everyone.
我们每个人都拥有自由意志，这既是个体的自由意志，也是国家层面的自由意志。
We're all left with our free will, and that is, I mean, the free will of the individual, and writ large the free will of nations.
我们在《旧约》中就能看到这一点。
And we see that in Old Testament.
上帝并不会阻止国家或个人行使自由意志去做那些他明知违背真理的事，而忽视真理的后果——我可以说这是上帝的惩罚，但其实这背后的意义更深。
God doesn't necessarily stop the free will of nations or individuals from doing something that God knows is contrary to truth, and the consequence of ignoring the truth really I mean, we can see it as God's punishment, but really it goes deeper than that.
这仅仅是与现实相冲突，当我们反对真理时，就是在反对现实，后果终将到来，或许不会立即显现，但当我们忽视真理时，后果终将追上我们。
It's simply in conflict with reality, and when we oppose the truth, we're opposing reality, and the consequences will follow, maybe not immediately, but the consequences will catch up with us when we ignore truth.
塔克，我知道你作为你人生、事业和你致力于传播真相的善举，所采访的那些人，都亲身经历过真相带来的后果，并且 hopefully 唤醒了对现实的认知。
And Tucker, I know that the people that you interview as your life, your career, your your good work of doing your best to share truth, you're constantly talking to people who have themselves lived through the consequences and hopefully awaken to the reality.
我必须追随真相。
I've got to follow truth.
当我们忽视真相时——这在当今社会有无数种表现形式——我们会走上一条带来伤害的道路。可悲的是，我们影响力越大，这条道路就越可能牵连其他无辜者，当我们决定故意偏离真相，自以为比真相更懂时，我们就越可能将毁灭带给最无辜的人。
When we ignore truth, and it I mean it's in countless ways in our society today, But when we ignore the truth, we get on a path that brings us harm, and sadly can the more influence we have, the more that path involves other innocent people, the more we can bring we can bring destruction down on the heads of the most innocent when we decide I'm going to going to consciously deviate from the truth because I've decided I know better.
这应该成为对我们所有人的重要警示，最终的红灯。
That should be a huge caution, ultimately stoplight for all of us.
要非常小心，不要走上那条路，因为我们在历史中见过，在我们这个时代也正在目睹。
Be very careful about going down that path, because we've seen it in history, and we see it in our time.
当个人声称自己高于或超越真相时，他们或许能暂时得势，但最终必将走向毁灭。
When the individual says, I'm somehow above or outside the truth, then they may prevail for a moment, but it will always come to destruction.
大约六周前，围绕一位名叫卡莉·普雷让·博勒的女性发生了一场争议，她是总统宗教自由工作组的成员。
There was a controversy six weeks or so ago around a woman called Carrie Prejean Boller, who was a member of the president's religious liberty task force.
根据我的理解，她被开除出该工作组，主要原因有两个。
She was expelled from it, really, from my reading for two reasons.
第一，她关注了加沙地带无辜者的死亡，并指出他们的生命与其他人的生命同样宝贵。
One, she called attention to the deaths of innocents in Gaza and made the point that their lives were as valuable as anyone else's.
第二，她拒绝了锡安主义的基本信条——政治锡安主义，并表示作为基督徒，她不必认同这一立场，因此她被开除了。
And two, she refused the basic tenets of Zionism, political Zionism, and said that she didn't have to sign up for that as a Christian, and she was expelled for that.
当时有不少宗教领袖、基督教领袖支持她的被开除，实际上正是他们促成了这一结果。
And there were a number of religious leaders, Christian leaders, who approved of her expulsion, in fact, who made it possible.
你对此发表了意见。
You weighed in on this.
你能告诉我们你为什么这么做，以及你说了什么吗？
Can you tell us why you did that and what you said?
是的，谢谢您，塔克。
Yeah, thank you, Tucker.
事实上，我是个简单的人，归根结底，这关乎最基本、最简单的真相。
Well, really, again, you know, I'm a simple guy, and it comes down to basic simple truth ultimately.
真相很简单。
Truth is simple.
是的，这很深刻，很丰富，难以理解，但并不像我们这个世界常常变得那样复杂。
Yes, it's deep, it's rich, it's hard to fathom, but it's not complicated in the way that our world is so often complicated.
正如你所说，我认为卡莉被移除是因为他们不喜欢她所讲的真相。
As you said, I think Carrie was removed because they didn't like the truth she was speaking.
关于加沙的真相，被许多人视为禁忌，那里无辜者惨烈死亡的事实令人痛心。
The truth about Gaza, which is verboten by many, the innocence that had devastatingly died there is just horrible.
这确实是当今时代的浩劫。
It truly is a holocaust of our time.
但他们不喜欢这个真相，也不喜欢她反对那种认为基督徒必须拥抱政治锡安主义的议程的立场。
But she was they didn't like that truth, and they didn't like the truth of her pushing back against the agenda that is saying this political Zionism is something that Christians need to embrace.
不，不需要，天主教会的态度非常明确。
No, it's not, and the Catholic Church is very clear.
据我所见，我在发布声明前与卡莉谈过一次，之所以联系她，是因为我听到了一些传言，我只是想以牧师的身份给予她一些支持和安慰。
From everything that I've seen, I had a conversation with Carrie before I put out my statement, and I had the conversation because I was hearing things, and I just wanted to really, my intention with reaching out to Carrie was just to be a pastor and to offer her some support and some consolation.
在谈话过程中，她实际上挑战了我，问我：主教，如果你真的相信你所说的话，如果你真的相信我的信息，你是否愿意公开说出来？
In the midst of that conversation, she basically challenged me and asked me, Bishop, if if what you're saying you really believe, your message my message to her, if I really believed it, would I was I willing to publicly speak it?
我告诉她我会为此祷告，并认真考虑。
And I told her I would pray about it, and I would consider it.
但就在我对她说我会为此祷告的时候，我心里明白，正如我们基督徒常说的，我受到了感召。
But even as I told her that I would pray about it, I knew in my heart that I was, as we say sometimes, Christians say, was convicted.
我知道，如果我想成为我想成为的人，想成为我想成为的基督徒，我就必须站出来发声，不是去攻击任何人，而是简单地说：你知道，我虽然用了比这多得多的词，但核心意思是，卡莉被从委员会中撤下，是因为她说了当权者不愿听到的真相，因此我觉得有必要为她发声。
I I knew that that if I was gonna be the man I want to be, if I was going to be the Christian that I want to be, I had to speak up and to to not attack anyone, but simply say, you know, and and what I tried to do in a rather several more words than this, but basically was say, Carrie was removed from that committee because she was speaking truth that the powers that be didn't want to be spoken, and because of that, I felt the need to speak out for her.
你知道，我不认为卡莉自称是无罪的、完美的女性，但她所说的话是正确的。
You know, I don't think Carrie claims to be a sinless, some sort of perfect woman, but she was right in what she was speaking.
人们常常会说，我知道你经常听到这种说法：当人们不喜欢正在说出的真相时，他们往往会攻击说话的语气。
Know, people can say, I mean, very often, and I know you hear this all the time, people will, when they don't like the truth that's being said, they'll very often go after the tone.
当我们说出真相，尤其是面对反对时，语气稍微激动一点是很人性的。
It's human for the tone to get a little elevated when we're speaking truth that especially when it's being opposed.
我知道，我个人可以坦承，有时确实会这样。
I know I can personally confess that sometimes that happens.
当我们面对与我们内心深信不疑的真相相悖的阻力时，我们或许不会变得暴力，但确实会表现得非常激动。
We can when we're facing pushback against something we know deeply in our hearts to be the truth, we can hopefully not get violent, but we can get very animated in how we're doing that.
我认为人们常常很巧妙地说：‘哦，只是语气问题而已。’
And I think that that's what people really pretty cleverly will say, oh, well, was the tone.
有时候语气确实如此，但有时候这样的语气是恰当的。
Well, sometimes the tone but sometimes it may be appropriate.
当真相被忽视时，我们有时需要引起注意。
When truth is being ignored, we need to get attention sometimes.
再次强调，基督就是我们的榜样。
And again, looking to Christ is the model.
我的意思是，他教导我们要爱敌人，但他也敢于直言不讳。
I mean, he said love your enemy, but he also was willing to call a spade a spade.
当他所面对的领袖明显背离真理时，他愿意以非常激动的方式与他们对话，甚至说：‘你们这些毒蛇的后代！’
And when the the leaders that he was speaking with were clearly not in the line of truth, he was willing to to get pretty animated in the way he spoke to them, and said things like, you brood of vipers.
我的意思是，那其实是施洗约翰说的话。
I mean, think that was actually John the Baptist.
但基督对那些领袖说出这样的话，是因为真理有时就需要这样的表达。
But Christ said those kinds of things to the leaders because that's what truths demand sometimes.
我们不应以暴力来维护真理，而应以热情和力量去做，在我看来，卡莉之所以遭到排斥，主要是因为人们不希望她说出这个真相。
We should not return to violence in order to stand for the truth, but we should do it with vigor, with strength, and to me that's where Carrie was rejected, primarily because they didn't want her to speak that truth.
你对此看得非常清楚，我认为你就是一个榜样，医生。
You've seen it so well, I think you're an example, Doctor.
你的经历就是如此，你作为一个男人说出真相，他们却试图让你闭嘴。
I mean, you were a man speaking truth, and they tried to silence you.
卡莉是在说出真相。
Carrie was speaking truth.
他们试图让她闭嘴，但最终适得其反。
They tried to silence her, and it ultimately backfires.
当真相被表达时，当某人或某个群体在说出真相时，试图压制它，最终只会适得其反。
When it's when it is truth, when someone or a group is speaking truth, trying to oppose that, it does backfire.
我想起《使徒行传》中的迦玛列，这位犹太领袖曾说：你们要小心。
I think of Gamaliel in the Acts of the Apostles, a Jewish leader who said, y'all need to be careful.
如果这事出于神，你们就会遇见神。
If if this is of God, you'll find yourself finding God.
如果这不是出于上帝，它终将自行消失。
If it's not of God, then it'll go away on its own.
迦玛列的意思是，真理是永恒的。
What Gamaliel is saying, truth lasts.
真理终将胜利。
Truth prevails.
真理之所以持续，是因为其本质如此。
Truth continues because of the essence of what it is.
这就是真理，我们一再看到这一点。
It is truth, and we see that over and over again.
当真理被宣告时，世间各种势力试图压制、 silenced 这真理，往往如此——我是说，耶稣基督，耶稣基督的整体戏剧是什么？
When truth is being proclaimed, and whatever powers of the world try to squelch that truth, try to silence it, so often, I mean, Jesus Christ, what is the whole drama of Jesus Christ?
当时第一世纪的世界与权势试图消灭他。
The world, the powers that were in the first century, tried to eliminate him.
而我们现在在二十一世纪又在哪里？
And where are we now in the twenty first century?
他仍然是那能够并应当引导我们的真理之声。
He is still that voice of truth that can and should guide us.
因此，卡莉被移除了，她曾是传扬耶稣基督真理的声音之一。
So Carrie was removed as one voice echoing the truth that is Jesus Christ.
她正是因为这一点被移除，而看看现在发生了什么。
She was removed because of that, and look what's happened.
她的声音反而更响亮了。
Her voice has grown.
在她被移除之前，我根本不知道卡莉·普雷简·博勒是谁。
I had no idea who Carrie Prejean Boller was before she got removed.
然后我最终就她发表了一番言论。
And then I end up making a statement about her.
这正是我们每个人在对抗罪与死亡的个人旅程中都应铭记的美好典范。
That is a beautiful example of what we all need to remember for ourselves in our personal journey against sin and death.
在全球的旅程中，我们也需要记住：如果是真理，它终将浮现并得胜。
And in the global journey, we need to remember, if it's the truth, it will come out and it will prevail.
所以我们最好尽最大努力坚持真理。
So we better do our best to stay with the truth.
我喜欢旧约先知所提到的真理铅垂线这个意象，它提醒我们要坚持真理。
I love the image of the plumb line of truth that comes from old testament prophets to to stay with the truth.
我会动摇，会软弱，我是个罪人，但我尽力回归那条真理的铅垂线，这正是我们个人和国家都应当做的。
I waver, I weaken, I'm a sinner, but I do my best to return to that plumb line of truth, and that's what we need to do as individuals and as nations.
我们需要不断愿意挑战自己。
We need to constantly be willing to challenge ourselves.
我是否以任何方式在回避或试图模糊真理？
Am I, in whatever way, avoiding or trying to obfuscate the truth?
只要我这样做了，我就在犯罪，我悔改，我请求宽恕，然后重新回到真理。
And to the degree that I'm doing that, I'm sinning, I repent, I ask forgiveness, and I get back to the truth.
你对关于卡丽·普雷让·博勒的那番话，收到了什么样的回应？
What kind of response did you get to the statement that you wrote about Carrie Prejean Boller?
我得说，反响非常强烈。
I'd have to say overwhelming.
我的意思是，早在它还是Twitter的时候我就在X上活动了，我曾经发表过一些内容，获得了大量反响。
I mean, I've been on X even when it was back when it was Twitter, and I've had some things that I've said that have gotten significant response.
你知道，我甚至不知道那些数字叫什么，但目前最大的数字接近百万，很多人参与了互动，虽然这些数字并不一定代表所有人都同意，但绝大多数人都说：谢谢你作为一名主教、使徒的继承者，敢于就此发声。
You know, I don't even know what you call the numbers that you see, but whatever the the biggest number there is close to a million at this point of people, and sometimes those numbers don't all necessarily mean that people are in agreement, but the vast majority of people have said, thank you for being a bishop, a successor of the apostles that was willing to speak to this.
塔克一次又一次地这样，我可以想象，你身处一个拥有巨大影响力的位置，你知道这一点，我也知道你尽力以负责任的方式使用这份影响力，而我们也必须如此。
And, you know, Tucker over and over again, and I can imagine, I mean, you're in a in a large you have a big voice in today's world, and I know you know that, and and I know you do your best to take that responsibly, which we have to.
我本人也对收到一百万条对我的言论的回应感到惊讶。
I'm the first to be surprised to have a million acknowledgements of what I've said.
大部分都是积极的反馈。
For the most part, very positive.
所以反响非常强烈，我的意思是，我相信我发布的这些话源自祷告。
So the response has been tremendous, and it's I mean, the words I believe, the words that I posted, I believe they came from prayer.
它们源于我对所信仰的真理的认真思考。
They came from real consideration of the truth that I believe in.
但人们真正回应的并不是我的话。
But it wasn't my words that people are really responding to.
这是真理。
It's truth.
人们渴望真理。
People are hungry.
他们正忍饥挨饿。
They are starving.
世界上正经历一场对真理的饥荒。
There is a worldwide famine for the truth.
幸运的是，真理就在那里。
Thankfully, it's there.
我们可以找到它，但有时我们必须为之奋斗。
We can find it, but we have to fight for it sometimes.
我在回应中看到的是，当有人发声时，人们心怀感激；你知道，当我和卡莉说话时，上帝以极大的恩典祝福了我。
And that's what I saw in the response is people are grateful when a voice and, you know, I and when Carrie and I spoke, you know, god has blessed me in tremendous ways.
真的，塔克，我们从未谋面，但我觉得我们的故事非常相似。
And really, Tucker, I mean, we've never met, but I see you our story is very similar.
他们试图封杀你。
You they tried to cancel you.
我的意思是，在那个文化背景下，说真话的人常常被封杀。
I mean, back in in the culture when people speaking truth were getting canceled.
那后来发生了什么？
And what has happened?
你的声音反而更大了，我觉得这很好。
Your voice has grown, and I think it should, thankfully.
我知道你不是完人，但你是一个追求真理的人。
I mean, I know you're not the perfect man, but you are a man seeking truth.
这就是我对塔克·卡尔森的理解：正因为如此，他们解雇了你，试图抹去你的声音，但你的声音反而更响亮了。
That's how I understand Tucker Carlson, and because of that, they tried to they fired you, and they tried to eliminate your voice, and that voice has only grown.
我也是同样的情况。
The same thing for me.
我被撤去了主教职务，但我的声音却越来越大。
I'm a bishop removed from his diocese, and my voice has grown.
我的意思是，我依然是那个来自东德克萨斯的孩子，但我始终尽力忠于真相，愿意坚持立场，我想，这正是我们两人可以站在一起的地方。
I mean, I still am the kid from East Texas, but my voice of doing my best to be faithful to the truth and to be willing, and that's, I think, where both of us can stand together.
我们愿意在真相不受欢迎时发声，即使坚持这种真相可能会带来更严重的后果。
We've been willing to speak the truth when it wasn't popular, when it was sometimes threatening to be further consequences if we stay with that voice of speaking the truth.
但我想，我们两人以不同的方式，我不能替你说话，但我能替自己说话，我必须这么做。
But I think both of us, in different ways, I can't speak for you, but I can speak for myself, I have to.
我必须继续做我一直在做的事。
I have to do what I've done.
我不能屈服，说好吧，就别再讲真相了。
I can't knuckle under and say, okay, just quit speaking the truth.
有人告诉我，别再说了。
I was told to quit it.
别说了。
Stop it.
别再讲真相了。
Quit speaking the truth.
你也被告知过，我敢肯定在幕后你还能讲出很多故事，比如有人会说：‘塔克，你难道不知道吗？冷静点。’
You were told as well, and I'm sure behind the scenes you could share lots of stories of people saying, oh, Tucker, don't you know, calm down.
别这么做。
Don't do this.
你可以退一步。
You can back off.
但我们不能。
But we can't.
当这是真相，而你内心深处也明白时，基督正是以一种宁静而美好的方式做到了这一点。
When it's the truth, and you know it deep in your heart, that is what Christ was able to do in a beautifully peaceful way.
他承受了世界加诸于他的一切。
He endured everything the world could throw at him.
你知道，从很多方面来说，我并没有遭受什么打击，但我一直愿意在不受欢迎时说出真相，结果基本上被逐出了圈子，但我依然是一名主教。
And, you know, in many ways I haven't had anything thrown at me, but I've been willing to speak the truth when it wasn't popular, and when it and basically got me kicked out of the club, but I'm still a bishop.
我依然是使徒的继承者，因此我必须继续发言，不是说我的真相。
I'm still a successor of the apostles, and so it's essential that I continue to speak, not my truth.
我的意思是，你知道，有些地方就变得疯狂了。
I mean, you know, that's where some it gets crazy.
人们会说，哦，那是你的真相，这是我的真相。
People speak of, oh, well, that's your truth, and that's my truth.
有真相存在，我们都有责任去寻求它，愿意去追求。
There's truth, and we all have the obligation to seek it, to be willing.
我多次说过这一点，现在我再重申一次。
And I've said this many times, and I'll say it again.
每当我声称某件事是真相时，如果有人能向我证明这不是真相，我希望能听到。
Anytime I speak something that I'm claiming to be the truth, if people can show me that this is not the truth, I want to hear that.
我不希望处于一种境地，让人觉得：哦，他声音大，所以我就不告诉他他错了。
I don't want to ever be in a position where people are saying, oh, well, he's got a big voice, so I won't tell him he's wrong on that.
我想知道我哪里错了。
I want to hear if I'm wrong.
我确实犯过错。
And I have been.
我当然可以。
I can be, for sure.
我是个软弱、有罪、容易困惑、容易偏离真理的人，但我不断回到努力最好地宣扬真理的道路上。
I'm a man weak and sinful and easily confused and easily diverted from the truth, but I keep going back to trying to do my best to proclaim it.
这正是我们所有人都被召唤去做的。
That's what we're all called to do.
我认为，卡莉作为一名女性、一位母亲、一位妻子，以及一位有声音的女性，就站在我们身边。一旦你拥有声音，你就负有责任用它来传达真理。
And I think I'd see Carrie right there with us as a woman, a mother, and a wife, and a woman with a voice, and once you have a voice, you have an obligation to speak the truth with it.
你说你关注时事。
You said you're on acts.
你显然在关注世界上正在发生的事情。
You're clearly paying attention to what's happening around the world.
很容易变得灰心丧气。
It's very easy to become discouraged.
耶稣正受到攻击。
Jesus is under fire.
教会整体正受到攻击。
The the church broadly is under fire.
真理显然是一个目标，也许是主要目标，这让人感到沮丧。
Truth is obviously a target, maybe the main target, so it's discouraging.
你是否看到上帝在对此作出回应？
Do you see God moving as a counterbalance to that?
当邪恶变得更加明显时，你是否看到上帝在更积极地行动？
Do you see God moving more as evil becomes more obvious?
塔克，谢谢你提出这个问题，因为我确实看到善良、美丽和真理正在以各种方式改变人心、激励人们。
Tucker, thank you for asking that question, because I think, absolutely, I see goodness and beauty and truth changing hearts and moving people in all kinds of ways.
这一直是我所蒙的福分。
That's been one of my blessings.
我现在是一位巡回主教，四处旅行，在不同场合演讲，结识了全国各地乃至全球各地的人们。
I'm an itinerant bishop now who travels all over the place and speaks in different settings and meets people across this nation and really around the world.
我确实在那些寻求真理的人心中看到了这种良善。
And I have seen that goodness in those hearts seeking the truth.
当然，我相信这仍然是上帝的世界。
And of course, I believe that God is it's still his world.
这仍然是他的教会，他从未缺席于这一切。
It's still his church, and he isn't absent from any of this.
自由意志让我们如果做出愚蠢的选择，就会毁灭自己。
Free will allows us to destroy ourselves if we make that foolish choice.
但上帝始终在为每一个人，以及每一个群体——无论怎样定义人类群体——提供机会。
But God is always offering the opportunity to each of us individually and to each of us in whatever group, whatever definition of of a group of humanity.
对我们而言，我们都是兄弟姐妹。
For us, we're all brothers and sisters.
我们都是上帝的儿女，但我坚信，正如你所问，上帝正在人心中工作。
We're all the children of God, but I believe absolutely answering your question that God is working in hearts.
上帝正在通过这一切工作。
God is working through all of this.
我的意思是，看看被揭露出来的所有邪恶吧。
I mean look at all the evil that's been exposed.
我们憎恨它。
We hate it.
我们感到震惊，但这就像一个需要清洗的伤口，一个需要敞开的伤口，腐烂的组织必须被清除。
We're horrified, but it needs it's like a wound that needs to be cleansed, a wound that needs to be opened up, and the putrefied flesh needs to be cleansed.
我们现在正处在一个洁净和净化的时期。
That's we're in a time of cleansing, of purification.
上帝正在允许那些长期被隐藏的真相浮现，如此多的腐败，确实令人不堪重负。
God is allowing the the truth that has been hidden for so long, so much corruption, it just it does get overwhelming.
我发布了信息来鼓励人们，不要绝望。
And I've put out messages to encourage people, don't despair.
绝望太容易了，而我们正目睹着这一切。
It's so easy to despair, and we see it.
我知道我们两人都经常看到这种情况，尤其是年轻人，生命终结了，有时是故意的，因为他们对这个黑暗的世界感到绝望。
I know both of us see it too often, especially young people, lives ending, sometimes intentionally because they're just despair of this dark world.
但我们绝不能绝望。
But we can never despair.
我们应当成为充满希望的人，承认存在的邪恶，但相信上帝与我们同在。
We should be people of hope and acknowledge the evil that's there, but believe that God is with us.
耶稣基督必胜，正如真理必胜。
Jesus Christ prevails as truth prevails.
我想这是因为我知道，许多可能听你讲话的人并不是有信仰的人。
And I guess that's because I know many of the people that probably listen to you are not people of faith.
但再次，我只想回到一点：真理必胜。
But again, I would go back to simply truth prevails.
真理何时显现？
When is the truth?
我相信，我们知道耶稣基督就是道成肉身的真理。
And we know, I believe, that Jesus Christ is truth incarnate.
真理曾在这世上行走，我们信奉天主教信仰。
Truth walked this earth, and we believe in the catholic faith.
祂通过圣事、通过世上那些活出良善的受洗者，继续临在。
He remains here through the sacraments, through the life of of baptized people in goodness living in the world.
但真理终将胜利，当我们愿意挑战自己，始终回归真理时，这必将引领我们走向上帝。
But truth prevails, and when we are willing to challenge ourselves to always go back to the truth, that will lead us nowhere but to God.
因此，上帝正在通过这一切工作，世上充满了诸多良善。
And and so God is working through all of this, and there's so much goodness out there.
有些事情被隐藏了数个世纪，如今终于浮出水面。
There are things that have been hidden literally for centuries that are coming to light.
让我想到的是一个名为‘良善之母’的圣母显现，发生在厄瓜多尔基多。
What comes to mind for me is is an apparition of Our Lady called Our Lady of Good Success that is in Ecuador, Quito, Ecuador.
这发生在瓜达卢佩圣母显现之后不久。
It happened shortly after Our Lady of Guadalupe.
瓜达卢佩圣母于1531年在特佩亚克，也就是墨西哥城外显现。
Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared in 1531 there in Tepiac, outside Mexico City.
瓜达卢佩圣母的圣像至今仍被当地天主教徒和其他人敬仰，那是一次奇迹般的显现。
The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe still is revered there by Catholics and others there, that miraculous appearance.
这次显现发生在16世纪70年代，我相信是在瓜达卢佩圣母显现之后不久。
This apparition happened in the 1570s, I believe, shortly after Our Lady of Guadalupe.
有趣的是，这个显现是向一位修女显现的。
And what's interesting is the apparition, it's to a nun.
圣母对一位修女说话，这已被教会批准为私人启示，并且教会接受其为真实的。
Our Lady speaks to a nun, and this has been approved as private revelation, but it is accepted as authentic by the church.
但基本上，圣母对这位修女——玛丽安娜修女说，在二十世纪和二十一世纪，这些真相将被揭示，并帮助人们应对一个因不遵循真理而陷入混乱的世界和教会。
But basically the apparition Mary says to this nun, Mother Mariana, that for the twentieth and twenty first century this will come to light and will help people navigate a world and a church deeply affected by the chaos of not following the truth.
我的意思是，归根结底就是如此。
I mean, that's what it comes down to.
我们相信教会终将胜利。
We believe the church will prevail.
地狱的门无法战胜天主教会。
The gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic church.
这就是我们的信仰。
That is our faith.
我们相信基督在福音中所说的话，并且相信这些话适用于今天的教会。
We believe what Christ says in the gospel, and we believe it applies to this church.
但这并不意味着我们人类和教会没有经历过人类所能遇到的各种风暴，我们相信教会不会被摧毁，因此我们不能绝望。
But that doesn't mean that we human beings, and the church has gone through every kind of storm that humanity can come up with, but we believe the church will not be destroyed, so we can't despair.
但对我来说有趣的是，这个显现是仁善的标志，是希望的标志，是天主依然与我们同在的标志。
But what's interesting to me is that this apparition, it's a sign of the goodness, a sign of the hope, a sign of God still with us.
作为一名主教，作为一名终身天主教徒，我认为一直对我很有帮助的一个现实是：记住天主是超越时间的。
One of the things that as a bishop, as a lifelong Catholic, one of the great realities that I think is always helpful to me is to remember God is timeless.
这对我们来说很难理解。
That's hard for us to grasp.
我们真的无法理解。
We can't really grasp it.
天主怎么能超越时间呢？
How can how can God be outside time?
但他确实如此。
But he is.
天主是永恒的，因此我们看到这些事情的发生，会说：四百年前发生了这些，现在又发生了，这到底是怎么运作的？
God is eternal, and so the things unfolding, we say, well this was four hundred years ago, and now it's happening now, and how does this work?
对上帝而言，没有时间。
For God there is no time.
它仅仅是源自三位一体内心永恒流淌的真理、美善与美好：上帝、圣父、圣子和圣灵。
It's simply truth, goodness, and beauty always flowing from the heart of the trinity: God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
因此，保持这种视角总能提醒我们、提醒我，不要轻易对历史妄下断言，因为上帝超越这一切。
So keeping that perspective always reminds us, reminds me, to be careful about presuming things about history, because God's outside all of that.
我的意思是，历史是上帝赐予我们的创造中的一种现实，它珍贵而美好。
I mean, history is a is a reality of of the creation that God has given us, which is precious and is good.
正如上帝在《创世纪》中所说，他看这一切都是好的，但当我们这些按上帝形象和样式被造的人开始忽视真理时，邪恶与不良便会滋生。
As God says in Genesis, he saw that it was good, but the evil and the bad can come when we who are created in God's image and likeness begin to ignore truth.
归根结底，问题总是如此。
That is constantly what it comes down to.
当我犯罪时，我就是在忽视真理。
When I sin, I'm ignoring truth.
我的意思是，我们或许不会说：‘今天我要故意忽视某个真理。’
I mean, we may not say, oh, I'm going go ignore some truth today.
但如果我们从逻辑上追溯，当我犯罪时——无论是在重大还是微小的方面——有时我实际上就是在说谎，忽视真理，假装事情就是这样，或者我就是这样做的。
But if we trace it back logically, what I'm doing when I sin, in significant or just small ways, sometimes it's literally telling a lie, ignoring the truth, pretending that this is the way things are, or this is what I've done.
但当我们个人层面、国家层面，乃至历史进程中忽视真理时，我们就踏上了一条毁灭之路。
But when we ignore truth on the personal level, on the national level, in the midst of history, when we ignore truth, we are on a destructive path.
因此，我们始终被挑战要回归真理；在这次对话中，我再次重申：对无辜者、对平民的肆意毁灭，绝无道德上的正当性。
So we're always challenged to go back to the truth, and in this conversation, once again, I repeat, the destruction, the wanton destruction of innocence, of civilians, is never morally justified.
这就是真理的基石。
That's the anchor of truth.
这是我们面对所有纷繁混乱的现实时，必须不断回归的真理支柱。
That's the pillar of truth that we have to keep returning to when we get caught up in the confusing and chaotic realities that we're all facing.
我们必须回归真理，谦卑地承认：主啊，我迷失了，或许是在微不足道或基本的层面上，但当我们允许自己蒙上双眼、忽视真理时，情况只会更糟，而我认为，这正是当下正在发生的许多事情。
We have to go back to the truth and humbly acknowledge, Lord, I wandered, insignificant or maybe just in basic ways, but the more we allow ourselves to put blindfolds on and ignore the truth, and I think that's a lot of what's happening right now.
就像那个被称为以色列的政治实体，无论出于何种原因——政治议程或某种被利用的宗教观念——正获得一种逃避真相的豁免权。
It's like, the political entity that is called Israel is getting a free pass for facing the truth for whatever reasons, for political agendas or some kind of co opted religious idea.
但当我们忽视针对平民、针对无辜者的暴行这一真相时，当我们不愿提及加沙这样的事件时，我们就走在一条黑暗的路上，这变成了一种共谋的俱乐部：我们说，好吧，我们都选择忽视这个真相，不是吗？
But when we ignore the truth that atrocities have been committed against civilians, against innocents, then when we won't speak of that like Gaza, then we're on a dark path, and it becomes something it's sort of like the club of complicity where we say, well, we'll all ignore that truth, won't we?
然后我们继续前进。
And we move forward.
而当今世界有太多这样的事情发生。
And too much of that happens in today's world.
你可能会疑惑为什么。
You wonder why.
我的意思是，关于这一点已经有很多论述了。
I mean, there are, you know, a lot is written about this.
对此也有许多猜测。
There's a lot of speculation about it.
为什么在美国，人们会故意对所有人都能看见的暴行撒谎呢？
Why would people intentionally lie in The United States about what everyone can see about the atrocities you just mentioned.
我们的政治领袖为什么会这样做？
Why would our political leaders do that?
为什么我们的许多宗教领袖也会如此？
Why would so many of our religious leaders do the same?
还有一些理论认为，这些人是被收买的，但从我的角度来看，这些解释并不充分。
And there are these theories, well, they're being paid off or Those are not adequate explanations from my perspective.
这感觉确实如此，而且也有这样的例子，保罗在《加拉太书》中也提到过，这几乎像是一种咒语，有一种超自然的力量，让人看不见真相。
It does feel like, and there are instances of this, Paul alludes to this in Galatians, it's almost like there's spell, there's a supernatural quality where people can't see things.
他们真的看不见这些事情。
They sincerely can't see things.
他们的视野被蒙蔽了。
Their vision is clouded.
你认为这种现象现在还存在吗？
Do you think that that phenomenon exists now?
是的，绝对存在。
Oh, absolutely.
当然存在。
Absolutely.
邪恶是真实存在的。
Evil is real.
天主教会将邪恶人格化为撒旦及其恶魔。
The Catholic Church sees evil personified in Satan and his demons.
基督意味着，撒旦其实没有真正的力量，但作为个体的人类，或任何一群人，当我们屈服于忽视真理时，我们实际上就是在向邪恶的力量低头。
Christ has I mean, Satan has no power, really, but we individual human beings, and any group of human beings, when we give in to ignoring the truth, we really are giving in to the power of evil.
就像你所暗示的，塔克，这正是为什么上帝通过祂的儿子，以及在其他经文，甚至旧约中，清楚地告诫我们不要彼此审判。
And like you're alluding to, Tucker, I mean, that's why, thankfully, God clearly tells us through his Son and in other passages, even in the Old Testament, we are not to judge each other.
我们不是审判者。
We are not the judges.
我们要对什么是真理做出判断，但不应审判个人。
We are to make judgments about what is true, but we're not to judge the individual person.
我认为我们必须始终记住这一点，因为你知道那些暴行的发生，但这并不意味着我们仅仅出于对这个人的尊重，就允许这些事情发生，或允许自己被攻击。
And I think that that's where we have to always remember, because you know the the atrocities that happen, and that doesn't mean what we just say, well you know out of respect for this person, I need to allow this to happen or allow myself to be attacked.
这并不是我们所讨论的内容，但当我们谈到评判一个人时，确实不应这样做，并且要承认或许存在邪恶。
That is not what we're talking about, but we do have to always acknowledge when it comes down to judging the person, we should simply not do it and acknowledge that maybe there is evil.
我深信，邪恶的幻觉如今已将许多人牢牢掌控。
And I truly believe that the delusion of evil has many in its grasp in the world today.
我们都有责任摆脱这种状态，看见光明，并选择远离它。
We all have the obligation to set ourselves free from that, to see the light, and to make the choice to turn from it.
但我知道，这可能会变得非常困难，甚至看似不可能。
But I know that it can become very difficult, seemingly impossible.
我认为，当我们讨论这一切时，塔克，归根结底还是在于基本的人类选择。
And I think that really as we talk about all of this, Tucker, I believe it again it comes down to basic human choices.
那位认为自己有理由做出这些决定的世界领袖，其实归根结底，我认为我们每个人都是罪人。
The world leader that is deciding this is justified because I have decided this, this, and this, it comes down to and again, I think of us as individual sinners.
当我们犯罪时，只是简单地决定：我比别人更懂。
When we sin, we've simply decided, I know better.
在这种情况下，你知道，我们总是为它找借口。
In this, it it you know, we we explain it away.
我们找各种理由来开脱。
We make rationalizations.
但本质上，尽管世界说这是真的，我却自以为更懂。
But what at the heart of it is, yes, this is what the world says is true, but I know better.
我明白了。
I've figured it out.
我知道得更清楚，而我认为，加沙的暴行正是在积极掩盖这些真相，压制任何敢于发声的人，因为这威胁到了他们‘我比别人懂’的心态。
I know better, and I think that that's where the atrocities in Gaza, are actively working to hide those and to squelch any voice that dares to speak up about innocents' lives being destroyed, because it threatens their I know better attitude.
这威胁到了他们试图构建的真相。
It threatens that truth that they're trying to create.
我们都可以试图创造自己的真相，但那并不存在，我们必须始终保持谦卑，承认这一点。
We can all try to create our own truth, but it doesn't exist really, and that is what we have to always be humble enough to acknowledge.
我们必须祈祷，让世界领导人成为心胸开放的人，因为他们拥有像我们在加沙所见证、在黎巴嫩正在见证的那样，造成巨大破坏的权力。
And we have to pray that world leaders will be people whose hearts are open, because they've got the power to do drastically, devastatingly destructive things like we've witnessed in Gaza, what we're witnessing in Lebanon.
我的意思是，这些事情很少被提及，因为当权者不希望这些真相被说出来，因为这会威胁到他们虚构的图景。
I mean, very little is spoken about some of these things, because the powers that be don't want that truth spoken because it threatens their false scenario.
所以，归根结底，事情就是这么简单。
And so it it really is as basic as that.
但我认为，存在着世俗的和超自然的邪恶力量，就像邪恶试图在我们的文化中抹杀真理的声音一样，在超自然领域，撒旦及其爪牙也在做着同样的事。
But I think there are forces, worldly and supernatural, of evil that I mean, just like when evil tries to cancel a voice of truth in our culture, certainly in the supernatural realm, Satan and his minions are trying to do the same thing.
我的意思是，天主教徒所诵念的圣米迦勒祷文，其根基在于承认这一基本现实，而不是觉得每个角落都有恶魔，而是承认邪恶是真实存在的。
I mean, the Saint Michael prayer that we offer as Catholics is rooted in acknowledging that basic reality, and not seeing a demon around every corner, but acknowledging that evil is real.
当我们赋予邪恶力量时，它才拥有力量，因此我们必须虔诚地转向真理。
Evil has its power when we give it power, and that's why we have to prayerfully turn to the truth.
我敦促每个人这样做，即使你不是信徒，至少——我的意思是，保持基本的理智，就意味着拥抱真理。
I urge everyone to do that, and if you aren't a believer to at least, I mean, hopefully, somewhat being sane is to embrace the truth.
我的意思是，疯狂的定义就是：‘我要忽略真相，只活在我的幻想世界里。’
I mean, a definition of insanity is to say, well, I'm going to ignore what's true and just go into my fantasy world.
有时候这种情况确实会发生。
Sometimes that happens.
但如果我们是理性的人，那么理性就意味着立足于真理，我们每个人都有责任去寻找真理、说出真理、活出真理。
But if we are people who are rational, then rationality means based in the truth, and we all have an obligation to find the truth, to speak the truth, and to live the truth.
我最后一个问题关于迫害，你曾提及过，你说耶稣因为说出真相而被杀害。
My final question is about persecution, which you've alluded to, and you've said, oh, Jesus was murdered for telling the truth.
他构成的主要威胁就在于，他是真理的化身，这一原则是成立的，受到惩罚的不是说谎者，而是说出真相的人。
That was the main threat he posed, the fact that he was the embodiment of truth and that that principle stands and that people who It's not the liars who are punished, it's people who tell the truth.
如果我们接受我们正处在一个趋势加速的全新世界，那么你必然会认为，针对基督徒的迫害将会加剧。
So if we accept that we're clearly in a new kind of world where trends are accelerating, you would have to think that persecution will intensify specifically of Christians.
我也这么认为。
And think it is.
我认为这正是我们正在目睹的。
I think it's what we're watching.
你相信这一点吗？
Do you believe that?
如果你相信，基督徒应该如何回应迫害？
And if you do, how should Christians respond to persecution?
塔克，我相信这一点，我的意思是，这非常清楚：信仰，任何对真实真理的立场，正遭受迫害，因为混乱的力量、那些虚假信息的力量正在增长并获得影响力。
Well, Tucker, I do believe that, I mean, it's very clear, I believe that that faith, really any stance for truth, the real truth, is being persecuted because the powers of chaos, the powers of that false message are growing and gaining influence.
作为基督徒，我们的回应应该是什么？
What what is our response as Christians?
嗯，我想这听起来可能很简单，但我们坚持真理。
Well, you know, I guess it sounds pretty simplistic, but we stay with the truth.
我们不会妥协。
We don't compromise.
面对暴力，我们不会诉诸暴力。
We don't become violent in the face of violence.
我们不会拥抱仇恨。
We don't embrace hatred.
我的意思是，我认为我们所能做的最有力的事情之一，就是真正地爱我们的邻舍。
I mean, I think that, you know, it probably is one of the most powerful things we can do is seek to truly love our neighbor.
是的。
Yep.
而且，基督确实教导我们：要全心、全灵、全意爱上帝，也要爱人如己，这是最大的诫命。
And certainly, I mean, Christ tells us, love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself, the great commandment.
但我觉得，无论我们遭受多少迫害，无论有多少仇恨朝我们袭来，我们都必须将这一点付诸实践，绝不向仇恨屈服。
But I think that we need to put that into practice by not giving in to the hate, no matter how much we are persecuted, no matter how much hatred is thrown at us.
我们的天主教信仰中，历代圣人提供了伟大的榜样。
We have great examples in in our Catholic faith in the saints of the ages.
许多圣人，连基督自己都说，如果他们恨你们，要记住，他们先恨了我。
So many of the saints, and Christ himself says, if they hate you, remember they hated me first.
迫害到底意味着什么？
What is persecution about?
当我们所做的事被人憎恨时，我们就遭到了迫害。
We're persecuted when they hate what we're doing.
他们憎恨我们是谁。
They hate who we are.
他们憎恨我们所说的话。
They hate what we're saying.
因此，我们与基督自己同在一条船上。
And so we're in good company with Christ himself.
基督是如何回应的？
How did Christ respond?
他没有偏离真理，但也没有用暴力反击。
He didn't waver from the truth, but he didn't violently fight back either.
我认为这应该是我们应有的基本反应。
That is I think the basic reaction we should have.
我们应该相信真理的力量。
We should trust in the power of the truth.
是的，我们可能会被消灭。
Yes, we can be eliminated.
我们可能在这个世界上遭到暗杀，这种事情确实会发生。
We can be assassinated in this world, and it happens.
但真理终将胜利。如果基督为真理而死，而他本身就是真理，为真理而牺牲，那么即使到了那一步，我们也不应主动寻求如此结局。
But the truth continues to prevail, and if, as Christ died in service to the truth, he was the truth, and he died for the truth, If it comes to that, we shouldn't seek that.
我们的生命是宝贵的，但如果真到了那一步，我们这些相信真理的人就应当成为殉道者，甘愿献身。
Our lives are valuable, but if it comes to that, then we who believe in the truth should be the martyrs, be willing.
如果为了捍卫真理，我必须在这世上牺牲生命，这就会提醒我们，生命并不局限于这个世界。
If that's what it takes to stand for the truth that I sacrificed my life in this world, it begins to remind us that life is not limited to this world.
我们相信永恒的生命。
We believe in everlasting life.
天主教会存在的目的就是拯救灵魂。
The salvation of souls is what the Catholic Church exists for.
在历史上和我们这个时代，情况可能并不总是如此，因为太多声音似乎过于关注这个世界。
It may not always look like that through history and in our time, because too many voices seem to be too worried about this world.
但最终，活着就意味着与上帝共享永生。
But ultimately, to be alive is to have eternal life with God.
因此，如果真到了那一步，牺牲尘世的生命，我一向非常钦佩圣托马斯·莫尔的榜样。
And so sacrificing this earthly life, if it comes to that, and we should I've always loved the example of Saint Thomas More.
他是一位伟大的律师。
He was a great lawyer.
他才智超群，竭尽全力避免失去尘世的生命。
He was a great mind, and he did everything he could to keep from losing his life in this world.
但他最终明白，如果必须为这个世界牺牲生命，他仍能仰望与上帝在天堂共享永生。
But ultimately he knew that if he had to sacrifice his life in this world, he could look to eternal life with God in heaven.
他对自己的女儿说：‘我们将在天堂愉快地重逢。’
And he says that to his own daughter, to we shall merrily meet in heaven.
我们也必须持有这样的态度。
That has to be our attitude as well.
不应轻率而轻易地让我们的生命被摧毁。
Not wantonly and easily allowing our lives to be destroyed.
这体现了对上帝赐予我们生命的珍视。
That is respectful of the treasure of our lives that God has given us.
我们应当渴望，只要上帝赐予我们气息，就继续活在这世上。
We should desire to be here as long as God gives us breath.
但当生命终结时，如果我们因坚持真理而失去生命，那么我们并不孤单。
But when that ends, and if we lose that life because we've stood for the truth, then we're in good company.
因此，基督徒面对迫害的回应，最终应是愿意并彼此坚固，无论发生什么，都坚定地站立在真理中。
So the Christian's response to persecution should ultimately to be willing and to be strengthened and to strengthen each other to stand with the truth come what may.
阿门。
Amen.
斯特里克兰主教，非常感谢您抽出时间。
Bishop Strickland, thank you very much for taking this time.
太棒了。
That was great.
谢谢你，塔克。
Thank you, Tucker.
上帝保佑你。
God bless you.
上帝保佑你。
God bless you.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。