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在过去两周里，你可能一直密切关注着与伊朗冲突的动态。
So for the last two weeks, you've probably been watching very carefully what's happening in the conflict with Iran.
美国和以色列正在对伊朗发动联合战争，我们所有人都在努力弄清楚那里正在发生什么。
The United States and Israel are engaged in a joint war against Iran, and all of us are trying to figure out what's happening there.
但当我们的注意力被引向国境之外时，也值得留意那些与这场冲突没有直接关联、却仍受其影响的本国及西方其他地区正在发生的事。
But as our attention is diverted outside of our borders, it's also worth paying attention to what's happening here and in the rest of the West that is not directly connected to this conflict, but still affected by it.
你注意到的一个现象是，过去一年里，我们的国家，以及欧洲、澳大利亚、新西兰和加拿大，都以非常异常、前所未有的方式对本国人民实施了管控，尤其是自两周前这场战争爆发以来，这种现象并不陌生。
And one of the things you notice is that our country, and certainly Europe and Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, have all clamped down on their own populations in very unusual, unprecedented ways over the past year, but particularly since this war started two weeks ago, and that's a familiar phenomenon.
处于战争状态的国家往往会变得更加专制。
Countries at war tend to become more authoritarian.
这种情况总是会发生，但我们应该对此保持警惕。
It always happens, But we should be on guard against it.
在美国，这种现象的一种表现是言论自由正在受到限制。
And one of the ways it is happening in The United States is that free speech is being curtailed.
你与生俱来的、上帝赋予的在公共场合表达你信念的权利。
Your inherent God given right to say what you believe in public.
这就是美国的基础。
That's the basis of The United States.
这是我们建国文件中权利法案的核心。
It's the very core of our bill of rights for founding documents.
这正是我们在世界上独一无二的原因。
It's the reason that we are exceptional in the world.
正是我们能够自由表达思想的能力，因为这项权利来自上帝，而非政府。
It's that one thing, our ability to say what we think, because that right comes from God, not the government.
我们的文件就是这么说的。
That's what our documents say.
因此，在所有我们应当坚决捍卫的权利中，这一项应居于首位。
And so of all rights that we should be resistant to losing, that would be at the very top of the list.
然而，正如我们下一位嘉宾即将解释的那样，正有人蓄意利用战争的名义和战争的掩护，剥夺美国人的这项权利。
And yet there is a concerted effort, as our next guest is about to explain, to strip that right from Americans using both the pretext of war and the cover of war.
我们再次必须对此保持警惕。
And again, we should be on guard against it.
格伦·格林沃尔德一生都在为言论自由奔走呼吁，也因此遭受了打压。
Glenn Greenwald has spent his entire professional life advocating for the freedom of speech, has been punished for it.
他一直在仔细分析当前正在发生的事情。
He has been analyzing carefully what's going on right now.
他现在加入了我们的对话。
He joins us now.
格伦，非常感谢你参与这次访谈。
Glenn, thanks a lot for doing this.
你如何评价当今西方言论自由的现状？
How would you assess the state of free speech in the West right now?
它正面临严重威胁。
It is seriously in peril.
言论自由常常处于危险之中，但如今比以往任何时候都更危险。
It's often in peril, but it's more in peril than ever before.
这背后有几个不同的原因。
And there are a couple of different reasons.
显然，欧盟一直试图削弱右翼民粹主义者表达某些观点的能力，这一点已引起广泛关注。
Obviously, there's been an attempt on the part of the EU to undermine the ability for people on this populist right to express certain views, and there's been a lot of attention paid to that.
但对言论自由更严重的威胁——你和我自2023年10月7日以来就一直在讨论这个问题——是以色列政府有组织的行动。
But the far more significant threat to free speech, and you and I have been talking about this Tucker since all the way back in 2023 after after October 7, is the very concerted effort on the part of the Israeli government.
在每一个民主国家，都有亲以色列的游说团体，虽然不如美国那么强大，但依然非常有影响力，它们公开表示这些国家的法律对谈论以色列的内容过于宽容。
And in each of these democratic countries, they have pro Israel lobbying groups, not as strong as The United States, still very strong, that have overtly said that there's too much permissive language under the laws of these countries for what you can say about Israel.
就在几个月前，内塔尼亚胡本人表示，我们警告西方国家：你们必须采取更多措施保护你们国家的犹太人，而且必须认真对待这一警告。
And Netanyahu himself, just a couple of months ago, said that we're warning Western states, you better do more to protect the Jews in your country and you better heed that warning.
自那以后，尽管此前也发生过类似事件，但针对所谓保护这个外国政权而实施的言论自由压制措施急剧增多，其中最肆无忌惮的是——我不知道你是否注意到，澳大利亚在以色列的坚持下，通过了一项法律，禁止了大量被视为冒犯以色列的常见政治口号，比如‘从河流到大海’之类的说法。
And ever since, and even, you know, there's been a spate of these kinds of things before that, but ever since, there's been a lot of draconian changes to just obliterating free speech in the name of protecting this foreign country, the most brazen of which was I don't know if you saw, but the Australians, Bondi Beach, at the insistence of the Israelis, passed a law banning a whole bunch of common political slogans that offend Israel, like to from the river to the sea and things of that nature.
许多澳大利亚公民对此感到愤怒，因为他们不能再表达这种政治观点，否则就会被逮捕。
And a bunch of Australian citizens were angry that they're not allowed to express this political view any longer or else they'll be arrested.
他们以公民抗命的方式，穿着印有‘从河流到大海’字样的T恤走上街头。
And they went as kind of civil disobedience wearing a T shirt that said, from the river to the sea.
结果，每一个人都被逮捕并经过了司法程序处理。
And each and every one of them was arrested and processed through the court system.
所以当你看到这些新型言论规范时，包括在美国出台的一系列立法框架，它们的目的纯粹是将几十年来已有的反犹主义定义扩大，涵盖大量对以色列或甚至对犹太个人的常见批评。
So when you see these sorts of things, these kinds of new speech codes that have been promulgated, including in The United States, a whole bunch of legislative frameworks that really have no purpose other than to expand the definition of antisemitism that's existed for decades to include a wide range of common criticisms of Israel or even of Jewish individuals.
这是一场对言论自由的严重攻击，但并非以保护我们本国边缘群体的名义，而是为了庇护这个外国政权。
That is an extremely serious attack on free speech, not in the name of marginalized groups in our own country, but in the name of shielding this foreign country.
我只是觉得澳大利亚的这个故事太令人震惊了，一开始我根本不敢相信这是真的。
I just the Australia story is so shocking that I didn't think it was real at first.
我跟一位在澳大利亚的朋友聊过，他确认了这件事属实，但这留下了许多疑问。
I talked to a friend in Australia who confirmed that it was, but it leaves so many questions.
第一个问题是，一个外国总理凭什么有权力告诉远在数千英里之外的公民，他们不许批评他？
The first of which is how does a foreign prime minister have the power to tell citizens many thousands of miles away that they're not allowed to criticize him?
我想，如果你三年前问我这个问题，我可能得小心措辞，因为答案涉及许多人都不了解、甚至被教导为禁忌的事情。
I think, you know, if you had asked me this three years ago, would have had to have been delicate because the answer is something a lot of people were unaware of or even taught was taboo.
但现在我认为很多人已经明白，这些国家拥有强大、资金雄厚的组织、活动团体和游说集团，它们并不忠于澳大利亚人、英国人、加拿大人或美国普通民众的利益，而是协调制定西方国家的法律，以最有效、最激进的方式保护以色列。
But I think a lot of people understand now that these countries have very strong organizations, activist groups, well funded lobbies that are not loyal to the interests of ordinary Australians or British people or Canadians or Americans, but instead are coordinating what these laws need to to be in the West in order to most effectively and aggressively shield Israel.
而邦迪海滩事件，公平地说，是一次相当可怕的打压。
And Bondi Beach was, you know, in fairness, a a pretty horrific attack.
当时有两名枪手，你知道的，在一个光明节庆祝活动中开枪射杀了人们。
There was, you know, a a two gunmen and and, like, you know, Hanukkah celebration and gunned down people.
但自从什么时候开始，在西方，我们竟认为应对大规模屠杀或枪击事件——这些事件频繁发生——的解决方案是立即限制言论自由？
But since when in the West do we believe that the solution to massacres or mass shootings, which happen all the time, is to immediately curb free speech.
而且不仅仅是限制，还要将表达广泛观点的行为定为非法。
And not only curb it, but make it illegal to express a whole wide range of views.
这不仅仅是澳大利亚的问题，塔克。
And it's not just Australia, Tucker.
这种情况正在发生。
It's happening.
我可以一一列举过去两年里，尤其是最近，在加拿大、南美洲、整个欧洲，甚至在美国越来越多地发生的类似事件，例子数不胜数。
And I can, you know, go through every single example, of which there are many over the past two years and especially recently, where very similar things are happening in Canada, in South America, all throughout Europe, and even increasingly The United States.
如果我只能举一个例子，我认为最令人不安、却几乎无人关注的一件事是：当特朗普上台时，他将打击反犹主义作为其政府各部门的首要任务之一。
If I could just give one example, one of the most disturbing things I think and I got very little attention was that when President Trump got into office, he made combating antisemitism a major priority across all agencies of his administration.
他们甚至任命了一位非常激进的反犹主义事务特使。
They even have anti Semitism czar who's very, very aggressive.
还通过了一系列规定，称如果你批评以色列，就无资格参与这些项目。
And a bunch of regulations got passed saying that if you criticize Israel, you're not eligible for these kinds of programs.
十年前，以色列颁布了一项全新的、大幅扩展的仇恨言论准则，称为IHRA，即国际大屠杀纪念联盟。
And what Israel did about ten years ago was promulgated this very new radically expanded hate speech code called the IHRA, which is the International Holocaust Remembrance Act.
它将一些对以色列或犹太人非常温和且常见的观点定为仇恨言论，比如‘以色列是一个种族主义社会’、‘可以把以色列比作纳粹’、‘犹太人参与了杀害耶稣’，以及其他许多针对以色列人、犹太人或以色列的批评。
And it takes very benign and common views about Israel or about Jews, such as Israel is a racist society, or you can compare Israel to the Nazis, or the Jews played a role in killing Jesus, a whole bunch of other kind of criticism of either Israelis or Jews or Israel.
他们把这些都禁止为仇恨言论，而我以为这正是美国右翼长期以来如此愤怒的原因。
And they banned it as hate speech, which is I thought what the American right was so angry about for so long.
当特朗普谈判并撤回对一批大学的资金支持时，理由是这些学校纵容了过多的反犹主义，而每一项谈判都要求他们采用这种激进扩展的反犹主义定义，以至于那些教授种族灭绝和大屠杀研究数十年的教授们也决定必须修改他们的阅读书单，因为这些内容如今以以色列的名义被禁止了。
And when Trump negotiated, when he withdrew funding from a bunch of colleges on the grounds that they were allowing too much antisemitism, every one of the negotiations required them to implement this aggressively expanded definition of antisemitism so that even professors of genocide and Holocaust studies who have been teaching for decades decided that they had to change their reading list because it was now prohibited in the name of Israel.
这是美国，第一修正案依然有效，但这一切却遍布我们的学术机构。
This is America, where the First Amendment is still in place, and yet this is all over our academic institutions.
这一切都是在打击‘觉醒文化’、打击左翼对美国高等教育的控制的掩护下发生的，而这种控制确实是真实存在的。
And this all happened under the cover of combating wokeness, combating the left wing death grip on American higher education, which is real.
我的意思是，这是最真实不过的事情了。
I mean, it's the most real thing of all.
但这种控制并没有被打破。
But rather than break that grip, it hasn't been broken.
它仍然完全存在。
It's still in place completely.
这被用作限制美国人固有言论自由权利的机会，而很少有人注意到这一点。
This was used as like an opportunity to restrict the inherent free speech rights of Americans, and very few people noticed this.
我当时并不明白这件事正在发生。
I didn't understand it was happening.
因为问题在于，这一切发生在我们最顶尖的高等教育机构——大学和学院里，而自启蒙时代以来，人们普遍认为，这些地方必须拥有完全不受限制的言论与辩论自由，包括那些令人反感的观点，以检验被列为禁忌的议题，甚至剖析最神圣的正统观念。
Because the problem here is that it's happening in our most elite institutions of higher learning, our universities, our colleges, which, you know, going back to the Enlightenment, everybody agreed was the one place where you needed completely unfettered speech and debate, including offensive ideas to test things that had been declared taboo, to even, you know, dissect the most sacred orthodoxies.
这些言论限制发生在大学校园里，我认为这尤其令人不安，对言论自由造成了破坏。
The fact that these speech restrictions are happening on college campuses, I think, is extra disturbing and and and destructive to free speech.
而且，这也很难准确界定，因为涉及的方面太多了，你提到了DEI。
And there's also, you know, it's not it's very hard to pinpoint because there's been so many, you know, you mentioned DEI.
特朗普政府上台时曾承诺要废除DEI。
The Trump administration came in promising to dismantle DEI.
他们确实取消了大量所谓的针对黑人的DEI项目，几个月来都不再承认这个群体或那个群体。
They did dismantle a lot of so called DEI programs for Black people for months recognizing this group or that group.
但在这些协议中，塔克尔与一些顶尖大学达成的条款却包含了经典的DEI要求，只不过对象不再是黑人、女性、跨性别者或同性恋者，而是犹太人。
But in many of these agreements, Tucker, with some of the biggest universities, they included classic DEI requirements, but not for Black people, not for women, not for trans or gay people, but for Jews.
还有很多这类项目规定，每年必须举办一次活动，强调犹太人在校园生活中的重要性。
And there's a lot of these programs that say once a year, you have to have an event recognizing the importance of Jewish life on campus.
必须前往犹太日校进行招生，努力吸引犹太学生入学。
You have to go recruit at Jewish day schools to try and get people who are Jewish to go to the school.
必须设立一个专门的办公室，用来处理那些感到被冒犯的人。
You have to create a whole office where people feel offended.
这些权利和机构仅对犹太人开放。
It's a series of rights and agencies available only for Jews.
这完全是典型的DEI。
It is classic DEI.
所以，他们取消了对某些不受欢迎群体的DEI，却为最受青睐的群体建立了新的DEI项目。
So they dismantled DEI for some of the unfavored groups but created new DEI programs for the ones that are most favored.
什么？
What?
这真的发生了？
And that actually happened?
为什么右翼没人对此发表意见？
Why did no one on the right say anything about it?
嗯，我也没提过这件事。
Well, I didn't say anything about it.
再说一遍，我当时并不知情，我本该留意的。
Again, I wasn't aware, and I should have been aware.
这是我的错，但我并不知道发生了什么。
It's my fault, but I didn't know what was happening.
我的意思是，为什么没人提到这件事？
Did I mean, why did no one mention it?
我其实一直都在提这件事。
I've been mentioning it a lot.
而且，你知道，有一些大学协会非常关注言论自由和学术研究，一直在积极发声。
And there's, you know, some university associations very worried about free speech and scholarship that have been active on it.
但特朗普政府上台之初，出现了无数项不同的举措。
But one of the things that happened is at the beginning of the Trump administration, there was a zillion different initiatives.
他们确实做了充分的准备，值得肯定。
They really came in prepared to their credit.
一个接一个，接连不断。
And it was just one after the next.
我一直觉得最危险的一项是，他们切断了对我们所有最重要机构的大学资金支持。
And I always felt like one of the most dangerous ones was that they cut off university funding for all of our most important institutions.
这种政府拨款，你知道，并不是用于像十七世纪亚美尼亚的跨性别者这样的群体。
And this government funding, you know, doesn't go to like trans people in Armenia in the seventeenth century.
我们的大学获得政府资金的原因是，最重要的科技和科学突破都是在这里诞生的。
The reason our universities get government funding is because that's where the most important advances in technology and science are developed.
互联网就是源于政府对大学互联网研究的资金支持。
That's where the internet came from, was government funding of the internet research at universities.
他们切断了所有资金，并表示：除非你们同意我们的所有条件，否则别想拿回这些钱。
And they cut it all off and they said, You're not getting it back unless you agree to all of our conditions.
其中一项主要条件是强制实施更严格的话语规范和仇恨言论规范，禁止学生和教职员工表达各种观点。
And one of the main conditions was the installation of these heightened speech codes, hate speech codes that ban the airing and expression, not just by students, but by faculty of all sorts of ideas.
这与抗议活动毫无关系。
It had nothing to do with the protests.
他们还强迫解雇了那些被认为对批评以色列态度过于友善的中东研究教授和系主任。
They also forced the firing of Middle East professors and chairs of departments who they deemed to be too friendly to criticism of Israel.
这是对我国最高、最受尊敬的教育机构学术自由的惊人攻击。
It was a remarkable assault on academic freedom at our highest and most well regarded educational institutions.
正如你所说，这种做法几乎没引起多少关注，因为特朗普政府初期有大量其他事务在同时发生。
And it was kind of done, as you said, with very little attention because there was this flurry of other stuff going on at the beginning of the Trump administration.
但如果你回头去看看那些协议内容、DEI倡议，或者IHRA仇恨言论规范，你会震惊于那些在课堂上、教师授课、阅读材料和学生辩论中已不再被允许表达的思想——违者将面临开除、停学或解雇。
But if you go back and look at what those agreements were or what the DEI causes were or what that IHRA hate speech code is, you will be shocked at the kinds of ideas that are no longer permitted to be expressed in classes, by faculty, in reading, in student debates, upon pain of being expelled or suspended or fired.
很多人在选择传统的胆固醇健康疗法前都会犹豫不决。
A lot of people hesitate before getting traditional therapies for cholesterol health.
他们不希望自己一辈子都依赖胶囊药物。
They don't want to wind up stuck on capsules for the rest of their lives.
他们更愿意自己掌控如何照顾身体，而不是吃药。
Pills, they'd rather feel like they have some say in how they take care of their own bodies.
因此，越来越多的美国人转向更温和的替代方案，选择他们能认出的成分，比如生姜和石榴。
And that's why more Americans are turning to more gentle alternatives with ingredients they recognize, ingredients like ginger and pomegranate.
其中一种替代方案是Dose胆固醇产品。
One of those alternatives is a Dose Cholesterol.
Dose胆固醇是一款经过临床验证的胆固醇支持补充剂，旨在调节甘油三酯、低密度脂蛋白、高密度脂蛋白和总胆固醇水平。
Dose for Cholesterol is a clinically backed cholesterol support supplement that targets triglycerides, LDL, HDL, and total cholesterol levels.
我们知道很多人在使用它，效果非常显著。
We know a bunch of people use it and the results have been overwhelming.
他们不再害怕做血液检查，因为终于，检查结果变好了，而且他们没有在服用某种奇怪的化学混合物。
They no longer fear having blood work done because at last the results are good and they're not on some kind of weird chemical cocktail.
它真的有效。
It actually works.
如果它无效，我们不会与他们合作。
We wouldn't partner with them if it didn't work.
Dose 使用起来很简单。
Dose is easy to use.
它是一种每天服用的两盎司液体，味道像芒果。
It's a daily two ounce liquid shot that tastes like mango.
哦，没有胶囊，也没有粉末。
Oh, no capsules, no powders.
使用起来非常顺畅。
It's seamless to use.
访问 dosedaily.co/tucker。
Visit dosedaily.co/tucker.
使用代码 tucker 可享受 35% 折扣。
Use code tucker for 35% off.
那就是 dosedaily.co/tucker，代码 Tucker，享 35% 折扣。
That's dosedaily.co/tucker, code Tucker, for 35% off.
这很值得。
It's worth it.
这件事发生在我身上，真让我震惊。
It's it's shocking to me that that happened.
而且，我再次为当时没有理解正在发生的事情道歉，但我必须问一下这件事的借口是什么。
And, again, I just wanna apologize for not understanding what was happening as it was, but I have to ask about the pretext for it.
我的意思是，我讨厌看到任何人因为宗教或种族而受到骚扰。
I mean, I hate seeing anybody hassled for his religion or ethnicity.
犹太人、基督徒、印度教徒，我就是不喜欢这样。
Jews, Christians, Hindus, I just don't like it.
明白吗？
Okay?
我讨厌很多所谓的新保守派政治代理人现在对穆斯林所做的事情。
And I hate what a lot of, you know, agents of, you know, of neocon politics are now doing with Muslims.
憎恨所有穆斯林。
Hate all the Muslims.
我并不比讨厌所有犹太人更喜欢这种事。
I don't like that any more than I, like, hate all the Jews.
但我很好奇，像在常春藤盟校里，犹太学生是否遭受了大规模的骚扰？
But I wonder, like, there massive harassment of Jewish students in the Ivy League?
犹太学生在常春藤盟校中是代表性不足吗？
Are Jewish students underrepresented in Ivy League schools?
有没有证据表明他们曾遭到系统性的歧视？
Was there evidence that they were systematically discriminated against?
大约一年前，反诽谤联盟发布了一份声明，抱怨好莱坞制定了各种多样性规则，规定必须有多少比例的演员、导演等。
The ADL about a year ago issued this statement complaining that Hollywood had adopted all these diversity rules for how many actors you have to have and directors and whatever.
他们抱怨犹太人并未被列入多样性统计中的少数群体。
And they complained that Jewish people were not among the minority groups that were part of the diversity count.
他们基本上明确（而不仅仅是隐含地）主张，好莱坞长期以来一直以歧视犹太人或设置障碍，阻碍犹太人在好莱坞各个权力领域参与，这在我看来，对任何稍微了解好莱坞的人来说都会是巨大的意外。
And they basically argued, not just implicitly but explicitly, that Hollywood has long been known for discriminating against or creating barriers for the participation of Jews in various power sectors in Hollywood, which I think would come as a gigantic surprise to anybody who has ever had any remote familiarity with Hollywood.
教育机构的情况也是如此。
And the same is true at educational institutions.
去看看哈佛大学最近的七位或八位教授是谁。
Go and look who the last seven of eight Harvard professors were.
他们全是犹太人。
They were all Jewish.
约翰·米尔斯海默谈过这个问题。
John Mearsheimer talked about this.
你知道，他在学术界待了五十年，他说我总听到有人说犹太人数量不足，或者犹太人受到攻击。
You know, he's been academia for fifty years and he said, I keep hearing that there's this like problem with not enough Jews or Jews being attacked.
我在学术界已经待了五十年。
I've been in academia for fifty years.
说犹太人代表性不足，这简直是荒谬至极。
The idea that Jews are underrepresented is so insultingly false.
但有人试图把这些教育机构描绘成某种反犹主义的堡垒，尽管每个关键层面——包括捐赠者、管理者、教授和学生——都充满了犹太人。你知道，你总得找个理由来实施审查。
But the attempt to turn these educational institutions into somehow bastions of antisemitism, even though they're filled with Jews at every crucial level, including donors and administrators and professors and students, You know, you always need a reason to censor.
你总得引用某种所谓的危机。
You always have to cite some sort of crisis.
但我认为关键在于，塔克，即使你认为这些抗议活动是反犹太主义的，并且骚扰了犹太人，这种说法也被严重夸大了，原因有很多。
But I think the key thing here, Tucker, is that even if you believe those protests were anti Semitic and harassing Jews, it was wildly exaggerated for so many reasons.
我们没必要深入讨论这个。
We don't need to get into that.
但我所说的特朗普迫使大学采用的言论准则——即IHRA仇恨言论准则——与抗议活动毫无关系。
But these speech codes I'm talking about that Trump forced the universities to adopt, the IHRA hate speech codes, they have nothing to do with protests.
它们不是关于行为的。
They're not about conduct.
它们纯粹是关于思想的。
They're solely about ideas.
我可以给你举几个例子。
And I mean, I can just give you a couple.
你不被允许说以色列国的存在是一种种族主义行为。
You're not allowed to say that the existence of the state of Israel is a racist endeavor.
但你可以自由地说美国是一个种族主义的事业。
You're allowed to say The United States is a racist endeavor.
你可以说中国、日本、伊朗、挪威、印度尼西亚，或者世界上任何其他国家都如此。
You can say that about China or Japan or Iran, Norway, Indonesia, any other country on the planet.
在我们的学校里，你却不被允许说这是种族主义的行径。
In our schools, you're not allowed to say it's a racist endeavor.
你不能声称犹太人参与了对耶稣的杀害。
You're not allowed to claim that Jews participated in the killing of Jesus.
你不能将以色列今天的政策与纳粹相提并论。
You can't draw comparisons between Israeli policy today and that of the Nazis.
你可以将美国的战争与纳粹相比较，或其他任何国家。
You can compare American wars to Nazis, any other country.
这些都是我们曾承诺要废除的特殊保护。
It's all special protections of the kinds that we told we were going to be done by.
还有更多这样的例子，它们明显是在保护言论，但在大学环境中却再也无法安全地表达。
And there are so many more of these that are amazing that are just so obviously protective speech but no longer safely expressed in the college or university setting.
但这让美国就像这场战争一样，处于毫无保护的状态。
But it leaves America, just like this war, it leaves America unprotected.
我的意思是，这些当然不是什么保护措施，我当然永远不会支持一项禁止批评我所拥有的国家——也就是美国——的法律。
So, I mean, not that these are protections, and I would never, of course, support a law banning criticism of the country that I own, you know, America.
我们作为公民，都拥有这个国家。
We all own this country as citizens.
所以我从不支持这些，但有趣的是，对美国——我们的国家——的批评从未被禁止或受到劝阻，而对外国的批评却不是这样。
So I would never support those, but it's just interesting that there's no criticism of The United States, our country, that is banned or even discouraged only of a foreign country.
对吗？
Is correct?
你批评美国政府、美国战争、美国建国历史，这些都没有任何禁令。
There are no bans on your ability to criticize the American government, American wars, the American founding.
你知道吗？
You know?
这才是令人惊讶的地方。
And that's what's remarkable.
我当然强烈反对那种席卷而来的左翼审查浪潮，是的。
I was obviously vehemently opposed to the kind of tsunami of left wing censorship that happened Yeah.
在我们的精英大学里。
In our in our elite university.
我多次上过你的节目，讨论过为什么会出现这种情况，我绝不想以任何方式为它辩护。
I was on your show many times to talk about And why that was so I don't want to, in any way, justify it.
但我要说的是，至少表面上，我们之所以需要审查的理由是
But what I will say is, at the very least, the ostensible pretextual argument for why we needed censorship
了
of
反对黑人言论或反对跨性别言论之类的，是因为我们在保护属于受威胁群体的边缘化美国公民。
anti Black speech or anti trans speech, whatever, is because we were protecting marginalized American citizens who belonged to groups that were endangered.
这完全是错误的，极其危险，但至少他们表面上是在保护美国本土的公民。
Totally false, totally dangerous, but at least they were trying to ostensibly protect American citizens in The United States.
这些新规则最引人注目的是，它们只是为了保护以色列。
What's so remarkable about these new codes is they're only to protect Israel.
想象一下，如果你是澳大利亚公民，穿着一件批评或支持以色列的T恤，却在你自己民主的国家澳大利亚被逮捕，这太荒谬了，塔克。
Like, imagine you go in and you're a citizen of Australia and you wear a shirt criticizing or advocating for something with Israel and you get arrested in your own democratic country of Australia, it is bizarre, Tucker.
没有其他适用于任何其他国家的法律。
There's no other laws that would be applicable to any other countries.
只针对这一个国家，反复再反复。
It's only for this one country over and over and over.
而且这传递了一个非常不安的信息，因为审查制度总是以当权者的名义实施的。
And it also sends a very unsettling message because censorship is always levied on behalf of the people in charge.
当然，掌握权力的人才是唯一会制定法律禁止你批评他们的人。
Of course, the people to power are the only ones who ever pass laws telling you can't criticize them.
我的意思是，当然了。
I mean, of course.
那么这说明了什么？
So what does this tell?
我的意思是，这到底意味着什么？
Mean, what is this?
这太吓人了。
It's spooky.
我从来不是那个到处嚷嚷‘以色列控制美国’的人。
I've never been the guy who runs around saying, Israel runs The United States.
这有点夸大其词，你知道，但我绝对不希望这么想。
It's an overstatement, you know, but I I certainly don't want to think that.
但如果你不能批评一个外国，那这个国家就掌控着你。
But, like, if you can't criticize a foreign country, then that country's in charge.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，我还能得出什么别的结论呢？
I mean, what other conclusion should I draw?
我很难给你一个清晰的解释。
I can't really provide you with the cogent one.
我想说的是，这丝毫不能为你说的任何观点开脱或改变什么，但我仍然认为有必要指出，我认为这其中一个原因是，过去几十年里，以色列游说集团一直倾向于在暗中运作，就像梅尔斯海默和沃尔特在2007年出版的那本开创性著作《以色列游说集团》中所描述的那样，他们最近谈到，尤其是梅尔斯海默，指出这一点非常重要。
I will say, I think, and it doesn't in any way justify or change anything you've said, but I nonetheless think it's important to note that I think one of the reasons this is happening, and Mearsheimer and Walt, who wrote that, the Israel Lobby book back in 2007, the pioneering first ever real book about the influence of the Israel Lobby, they've recently talked about how, especially Mearsheimer, how back, you know, over the last several decades, it was very important for the Israel Lobby to act kind of in the shadows.
我不是说这有什么恶意。
I don't mean that nefarious.
我的意思是，他们只是不希望让人明显看出，存在这样一股力量——就像大多数游说团体一样，它们在首都的阴暗角落和下水道里运作。
I mean, they just didn't want it obvious that there was this, you know, force that they I mean, like most lobbyist groups operate in the sewers and, you know, shadows of the capital.
但过去三年里，亲以色列游说团体不得不比以往任何时候都更公开地现身，甚至公然把所有人贴上反犹主义的标签，推动言论限制。
But over the last three years, the pro Israel Lobby has had to come out into the open so much more than ever before and really just be so explicit in calling everyone anti Semitism, advocating for speech restrictions.
原因在于，从以色列的角度来看，美国几乎所有年龄层群体对以色列的支持都出现了剧烈且令人震惊的下滑，唯独保守派50岁以上人群除外。
And the reason is, is because there has been a very radical and from an Israeli perspective, an extremely alarming collapse in support for Israel among Americans in basically every demographic group other than conservatives 50.
也就是说，几十年来一直看福克斯新闻的观众。
So basically like decades long Fox Watchers.
但就连50岁以上的保守派，现在也大多持对以色列不利的观点。
But even conservatives 50 have all basically now have majority opinions that are disfavorable to Israel.
你可以看到他们为此所做的一些应对措施。
And you see some of what they've been trying to do in response.
拉里·埃里森曾试图收购TikTok，因为人们普遍认为TikTok是传播反以色列批评的主要渠道之一。
Larry Ellison tried to buy TikTok, which was one of the perceived sources where so many people were hearing about anti Israel criticisms.
于是他们设法把TikTok从原所有者手中夺走，转交给了拉里·埃里森。
So they pried they it out of the hands of the owners and put it into Larry Ellison's hand.
你看到埃里森家族收购了CBS和新闻频道，并任命巴里·韦斯担任要职。
You see the Ellison family buying CBS and News and putting Barry Weiss there.
TikTok上有个以色列国防军士兵。
There's an IDF soldier at TikTok.
这些都是绝望的举动。
So these are all desperate moves.
我认为，他们现在如此公然地试图审查美国言论以支持以色列，这种大胆的尝试也是同样的道理——以前他们是不会这么做的。
And I think the same is true with this very brazen attempt that they wouldn't have done before, so out in the open, try and censor American speech for Israel.
但这是因为他们感到恐慌。
But it's because they feel panic.
他们处于恐慌之中。
They're in panic.
这简直是一种绝望的表现。
It's kind of a desperation.
长期以来在美国人中坚如磐石的对以色列的支持，如今正在迅速崩塌。
That spiral of support for Israel among Americans, which had been utterly unthreatened for decades, is very rapid.
而且我认为这再也不会回去了。
And I don't think it's ever going back.
我认为，这些努力大多很明显，而且极有可能引发强烈反弹，但他们还是在继续推进，因为他们实在太绝望了，试图找到某种方法来扭转美国公众舆论的这一趋势。
And I think a lot of these efforts as kind of, you know, just obvious and with such a high potential for backlash are being pursued anyway because they're just desperate about trying to find some way to reverse that that public opinion trend in The United States.
通货膨胀让信用卡账单变得特别可怕。
Inflation makes credit card statements particularly scary.
你每周工作四五十个小时，只是为了买杂货和汽油，而这些东西过去你根本不用多想就能负担得起。
You work forty, fifty hours a week just to buy groceries and gas, things you used to be able to afford without thinking that much about it.
然后银行还向你收取20%的利息。
Then the banks charge you 20% interest.
如果这个系统的设计就是为了让你深陷债务，那它确实奏效了。
If the system is designed to keep you underwater, it's working.
但还有另一种选择。
But there's another option.
我们的朋友美国融资公司正在做大型银行憎恨的事情。
Our friends at American Financing are doing something the big banks despise.
他们正在帮助人们。
They are helping people.
他们提供百分之五的抵押贷款利率，支持美国人的住房梦想，并教 homeowners 如何利用自己辛苦积累的房产净值来偿还高利率债务。
Mortgage rates in the fives, supporting the American dream of homeownership, and they're showing homeowners how to take their hard earned equity to wipe out high interest debt.
我们并不反对所有债务，但在当前经济环境下，大多数人别无选择。
Now we're against debt in general, but in this economy, most people have no choice at all.
所以不要破产，把自己卖给贷款机构当奴隶。
So don't go bankrupt, enslaving yourself to a lender.
平均每月储蓄约800美元，只需十分钟即可与按薪资计算的抵押顾问交谈。
Average savings are about $800 a month, and it takes only ten minutes to talk to a salary based mortgage consultant.
无需预付费用，也无任何义务，即可了解你能节省多少。
No upfront fees or obligation to see how much you can save.
致电美国融资公司：806855696。
Give American Financing a call 806855696.
拨打1806855696，或访问americanfinancing.net/tucker，这里是美国家庭贷款的家园。
That's 1806855696 or visit americanfinancing.net slash Tucker America's Home for Home Loans.
要么是我误解了目标，要么这就是有史以来最愚蠢的宣传活动，因为如果目标是让人们对以色列产生好感，那显然事与愿违。
Either I'm misreading the goal or this is the dumbest campaign ever waged, because if the goal is to make people like Israel, this is having the opposite effect, of course.
所以，这确实正在产生相反的效果。
So maybe and it's, I mean, really having the opposite effect.
它正在改变人们对以色列的看法。
It's changing people's minds against Israel.
以色列自己就在这么做。
Israel is doing that.
所以你不得不怀疑，也许这正是他们的目的。
And so you have to wonder, like, maybe that is the goal.
我们多次看到过完全相同的情况，但最近一次是在乔治·弗洛伊德事件和#MeToo运动之后，左派开始疯狂地指责每个人都是种族主义者、白人至上主义者和厌女者。
We saw the exact same thing many times, but most recently with the left and, you know, in the wake of George Floyd and Me Too, they just started kind of frantically accusing everybody of being a racist and a white supremacist and a misogynist.
人们变得非常疲惫，那正是‘觉醒’文化的巅峰期。
And people got really, you know, that was peak woke and people got really tired of it.
由于太多人被指控，最终这些指控失去了意义，人们也因此感到愤怒。
And so many people were being accused that at some point it just lost its meaning and people got angry about it.
没有人会欣赏那些试图压制辩论的人。
Nobody appreciates those who are trying to stifle debate.
而且，当人们被不断指责为种族主义者时，这种指控失去了所有意义，引发了巨大的反弹，人们不再在乎被贴上这样的标签。
And there was a huge backlash in terms of people no longer caring about being called racist because they drained it of all its meaning.
这里发生的情况完全相同，非常明显。
Exactly the same thing is so clearly happening here.
当然，随着人们越来越清楚地看到西方——尤其是美国——为捍卫这个外国政权而实施的言论压制，怨恨情绪会越来越强烈。
And the, of course, there's going to be a lot of resentment the more people see how much of a speech crackdown in the West generally, in The United States in particular, there is in defense of this foreign country.
但我要再次回到这一点：正是加沙地带的彻底毁灭，以及伴随而来的种种非人道暴行——我们每天都能亲眼目睹——让我们意识到，美国在乔·拜登的领导下正在为这一切提供资金和武器支持。
But again, I would just go back to the fact that it was really the obliteration of Gaza, all the inhumane atrocities that we saw that accompanied it, that we saw literally every day, that we realized The United States was paying for under Joe Biden and arming and funding.
这彻底改变了人们对本国政府以及对以色列的看法。
It really radically transformed how people think of their own government and how they think of Israel.
我只是觉得，这一切都是试图把猫关进袋子里，因为长期以来人们一直认为以色列的存在依赖于美国的广泛支持，而这种支持正在瓦解。
And I just think that this was all this is all an effort to put the cat in the bag because there's always been a perception that Israel's existence depends on widespread support of The United States, and that is crumbling.
我甚至都不太愿意说这些，因为这让我感到无比痛苦。
I hesitate even to say this because it pains me so, so much.
但你知道，我们合作做节目已经很久了，差不多十年了，大多数节目的基础都是言论自由。
But, you know, we've been doing shows together for a long, you know, ten years, and the basis of most of them has been, you know, free speech.
这是最美国式的思想，也是值得为之献身的理念，我们俩一直对此达成共识。
It's the most American idea there is, and it's the one worth dying for, and we both have always agreed on that.
你一直是左派的标志性人物。
And you're a lifelong figure on the left.
我一直是右派的标志性人物。
I'm a lifelong figure on the right.
我们都同意，左派才是真正威胁言论自由的一方，因为确实如此。
And we both agreed that, like, the left was the real threat to free speech because it was.
在过去一年里，右派——不管那意味着什么，大概是共和党吧——似乎同样威胁着言论自由，甚至可能更甚，对言论自由的打压比左派更有效。
Over the last year, the right seems every bit as the right, whatever that means, like the Republican Party, I guess, seems every bit as threatening to free speech, maybe even more so, maybe more effective in this attack on free speech than the left.
我真的不想这么想。
I I really don't wanna think that.
这让我很痛苦，但我必须诚实，我开始相信这一点了。
It pains me to admit it, but I wanna be honest, and I'm starting to believe that.
是的
Yeah.
我不是说左派突然意识到言论自由的重要性和价值，因而需要保护它。
I wouldn't say it's because the left suddenly had an awakening about the importance and virtues of free speech and they need to protect it.
真正的原因是他们失去了权力。
Really because they're out of power.
而右派掌握了权力。
And the right is in power.
这当然很常见：当人们声称相信某些自由和公民权利时，一旦掌权，就会突然找到各种理由去削弱它们。
And that, of course, is something very common when people claim to believe in certain liberties and certain civil rights they get into office and suddenly they find reasons to unravel it.
但这种情况已经持续很久了。
But this has been going on for a while.
我想，你提到过大学里的仇恨言论准则并没有引起太多关注。
I think, you know, you mentioned how the hate speech codes at universities didn't get a lot of attention.
另一件从未引起太多关注的事情，至今仍让我非常愤怒，因为它荒谬至极，而且早在10月7日之前就已存在——如今，美国多达三十五或三十六个州，其中绝大多数是红州，但并非全部，都通过了法律，要求如果想获得政府合同，就必须声明不支持抵制以色列。
Another thing that never got a lot of attention, and it drives me very crazy to this day because it's so preposterous and it really predates October 7, I would say it's now up to 35 or 36 states in The United States, the vast majority of which are red states, but not all, that have enacted laws that make it a requirement, if you want a government contract, that you certify that you do not support a boycott of Israel.
许多在该法律通过前就已有合同的人因拒绝签署而被解雇。
And a lot of people who had contracts before this law was passed ended up getting fired because they refused.
一些城市将飓风救灾援助与签署声明挂钩，要求声明者不支持对以色列的抵制。
There have been hurricane relief aid that cities have conditioned on signing a form that says you don't support a boycott of Israel.
还有许多因批评以色列而被大学解雇的人。
There have been all kinds of firings and universities for people who criticized Israel.
所以这种情况已经发展了相当长一段时间。
So it it it's been developing for quite a while.
这并不是突然才开始的。
It's not like it just started.
飓风救灾援助以签署声明为前提，声明内容是不支持对以色列的抵制。
Hurricane relief was predicated on a signed statement that you don't support a boycott for Israel.
换句话说，你甚至不需要实际参与抵制以色列。
In other words, you don't even have to be actively boycotting Israel.
但如果你在理念上支持抵制，就无法获得飓风救灾或紧急灾难援助？
But if you conceptually support it, you can't get hurricane relief, emergency disaster aid?
真的吗？
That true?
这种事我都知道，除非人们亲眼所见，否则根本不会相信。
This is the kind of thing that I know people don't believe unless they No.
我的意思是，这简直太离谱了。
Go I mean, it's like up.
你知道，这太令人震惊了。
You know, it's it's so shocking.
我知道。
I know.
如果我没亲眼看到，我也不会相信。
If I didn't see it myself, I also wouldn't believe it.
我想，如果我听到这种说法，我会觉得这是阴谋论者在胡说八道。
I think if I heard that, I'd be like, that that's a conspiracy theorist saying crazy stuff.
不，这确实是许多地方实际推行过的事情。
No, that actually is something that was instituted in many places.
不同的语言形式，但大多数情况下，要求你证明自己不参与对以色列的抵制，才能获得州合同或飓风救援资金。
Different kinds of language, but mostly it requires that you certify that you don't participate in a boycott of Israel in order to get, you know, a state contract or in order to get hurricane relief.
当RFK接手后，卫生与公共服务部曾出台规定，要求某些补助金的申请者必须声明自己不支持对以色列的抵制。
There were HHS regulations once RFK took over were forced on by the administration that said certain grants you can't get unless you certify that you're not supporting a boycott of Israel.
这些补助金原本用于支持改善美国人健康的科研项目，但如今却被附加了这类条件。
Talking about grants for research that would help Americans' health that would then got conditioned on this sort of thing.
所以，这类做法已经持续了一段时间。
So this has been something that has been going on for a while.
让我再补充一点，塔克。
Let me just say one other thing, Tucker.
曾支持这项规定——即除非申请人承诺不支持对以色列的抵制，否则不得获得州合同——的人之一，是安德鲁·科莫在担任纽约州州长期间。
One of the people who supported that ban on people getting state contracts unless they certify they won't support a boycott of Israel was Andrew Cuomo when he was governor of New York.
在担任纽约州州长时，安德鲁·科莫曾下令州政府对北卡罗来纳州和印第安纳州实施抵制，原因是这两州通过了关于跨性别者洗手间的法案。
When he was governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo ordered the state to boycott the state of North Carolina and the state of Indiana over anger due to because of their bathroom bills, their trans bathroom
法案。
bills.
我记得这件事。
I remember that.
所以库莫下令对美国各州实施抵制。
So Cuomo ordered a boycott of American states.
一旦这些法律开始蔓延，安德鲁·库莫就接受了这一做法，并表示：如果你抵制以色列，纽约州就会抵制你，意思是我们将不再与你做生意。
Once these laws started proliferating, Andrew Cuomo embraced this and said, if you boycott Israel, New York State will boycott you, meaning we won't do business with you.
这是一个声称抵制本国同胞、抵制美国各州完全没问题的人。
This is someone who said, it's totally fine to boycott your fellow countrymen, your states in United States.
不仅没问题，我还下令实施这些抵制。
Not only is it fine, I'm ordering those boycotts.
你可以抵制地球上任何其他国家、任何其他州、任何其他城市，但就是不能抵制以色列。
One thing you you can boycott any other country on the planet as well, any other state, any other city, you just can't boycott Israel.
美国有大量法律，规定如果你无法真实地做出相关声明，就会遭受严厉的剥夺。
So many American laws in place that impose draconian deprivations in the event that you're not able to certify that truthfully.
难以置信的是，不仅有多个州实施了这种做法——根据你的说法，大多数州都这样做了——但竟然没有人对此提出抗议。
It's beyond belief that there are not only states that did this, the majority of states, by your telling, but that there's been no protest against it.
我的意思是，当然，没有任何禁令禁止抵制美国。
I mean, because, of course, there's no ban on boycotting The United States.
我的意思是，我们的国家在这件事中根本没有扮演任何角色。
I mean, our country doesn't play a role in any of this.
这就像一个拥有九百万人口的外国。
It's like a foreign country of 9,000,000 people.
他们的利益决定了你能否获得飓风救援或联邦合同。
Their interests determine whether you get hurricane relief or a federal contract.
为什么就没有人对此提出抗议呢？
Like, why has no one protested this?
只是，在10月7日之前很长一段时间，尤其是这样，以色列问题一直被搁置一旁，但你也非常清楚这一点。
It's just, you know, for a long time before October 7, especially, there was just kind of a Israel was sort of on the back burner, but also, you know this very well.
这实际上是一种禁忌。
There was really a taboo.
如果你谈论以色列，但不遵循我们一贯必须资助、武装和支持以色列、为以色列打仗的两党一致的崇敬脚本，就会付出巨大的职业和声誉代价。
There was a high career and reputational cost if you were going to talk about Israel and anything other than the reverent, you know, bipartisan script that we always have to finance and arm and support Israel and go to war for Israel.
如果你稍微偏离了主流观点，很多人就会为此付出巨大代价。
If you deviated at all, a lot of people, you know, paid a big price for that.
所以，我认为一直以来，我都在撰写关于以色列以及它在美国影响力的话题，已经二十年了。
So, I think there was just always, you know, I've been writing about Israel and this sort of stuff and its influence in The United States for twenty years.
我曾多次看到一些事情，简直不敢相信它们是真的。
And there are many times when I saw things that I just couldn't believe were real.
但那些事情确实是真的。
And they were real.
正如你所说，这些事几乎没有引起关注，因为当时有一种氛围，让人们潜移默化地觉得，不谈以色列才是更好的选择。
And as you say, they got very little attention because there was a climate that convinced people, implicitly or otherwise, you're better off just not talking about Israel.
还有成千上万其他话题你可以去讨论。
There's a million other things you can go talk about.
别去碰以色列这个话题。
Leave the Israel topic alone.
很多人都这么做了。
And a lot of people did it.
而在10月7日之后，这种情况就再也无法持续了。
And after October 7, it just became unsustainable.
我的意思是，我认为在这场战争之后，这种情况也将无法持续。
I mean, and I think after this war, it will become unsustainable.
我认为这些情况不可能一直无人质疑，其中一些终将被推翻。
I don't think that any of this can remain unchallenged, and some of it will be overturned.
实际上，让我稍微岔开一下话题问你，这场战争并不受欢迎。
And actually, let me just take a quick side detour here and ask you, this war is not popular.
我想明确说一下，我期望美国能获得最好的结局，因为这是我的国家，但这场战争并不受欢迎，从第一天起就不是。
I just want to say on the record, I'm hoping for the best resolution for The United States because this is my country, but it's not popular, and it hasn't been from the very first day.
事实上，大多数美国人反对这场战争，但却没有任何抗议，没有有意义的抗议活动。
In fact, the majority of Americans are against it, but there have been no protests, no meaningful protests against it.
这是为什么？
What is that?
其中一个问题是，建国者们建立了一套宪法框架，每个人都该去读一读宪法。
One of the problems is that there's a constitutional framework that was created by the founders that everyone go read the constitution.
第一条明确规定，国会拥有宣战的专属权力。
Article one says that Congress has the exclusive right to declare war.
不仅是宣战，还包括战争如何进行的其他方面。
And not just to declare war, but other aspects of how those wars are conducted.
这其中是有原因的。
And there was a reason for it.
如果你去读《联邦党人文集》，或者当时关于这个问题的其他文献，就会明白原因：战争是国家所能从事的最危险、最糟糕、最具破坏性的事情。
If you go read the Federalist Papers, if you go read a bunch of other stuff that was written about it at the time, The reason is is because wars are the singular, most potentially dangerous thing, the worst thing, the most destructive thing that a country can embark upon.
而为此冒生命危险的，是参战国家的公民。
And the people who end up having their lives risked for it are the citizens of the country fighting the war.
至少过去是这样的。
At least that used to be true.
现在不再是了。
That's no longer true.
但当时确实是这样。
But it was true back then.
当时的理论是，如果你要发动战争，就必须获得那些真正参战、支付战争费用或承担其他负担的人民的同意。
And the theory was, if you're going to start a war, you have to have the consent of the people who are going actually be fighting in war or paying for the war or otherwise burdening themselves.
而实现这一点的方式是，让最贴近美国民众的机构——国会——来决定，因为国会议员是民选的，每两年选举一次。
And the way to do that is you have the people, the branch that's closest to the American people is the Congress because they're elected, they're elected every two years.
因此，获得国会批准发动战争至关重要。
And that was why it was so important to approve those wars.
我们现在已经完全背离了这一原则。
We've completely gotten away from that.
无论是哪个政党的总统，都认为自己可以发动战争，而且经常在没有寻求国会授权的情况下就付诸行动。
Presidents believe in both parties they can start wars, and they frequently do without any kind of attempt to gain congressional approval.
奥巴马在没有获得国会授权的情况下发动了利比亚战争。
Obama started the war in Libya with no congressional approval.
几天后，众议院实际上就是否授权这场战争进行了投票。
A couple days later, the House actually voted on whether to authorize it.
众议院投票决定：我们不授权这场战争。
The House voted no, we're not authorizing it.
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而奥巴马根本就直接这么做了。
And Obama just went ahead and did it anyway.
所以，我们已经失去了这种观念：即战争应该经过辩论，不应只由总统一人决定。
So, we've lost this idea that we're supposed to have a debate, that it's in the hands of anybody other than the president.
我认为，除此之外，传统上，当大量美国人被征召入伍参加越战时，人们会因战争而愤怒并开始抗议。
I think beyond that, though, traditionally, people have gotten really angry about wars, have started protesting wars when there's a lot of Americans deployed in Vietnam by a draft.
但即使是在伊拉克战争期间，当大量士兵的遗体被运回家乡时，情况也差不多。
But even, you know, in Iraq when there's a lot of troops coming home in body bags or dying.
我认为，如果我们只是进行空袭，仅仅是空袭，那就不足以激发美国人走上街头抗议的动力。
And I think the idea is if we're just air bombing, you know, just air bombing, if that's all we're doing, it just doesn't provide the impetus for Americans to go out and protest.
而且，伊拉克战争和伊朗战争之间还有一个重大区别：尽管对布什、切尼、康多莉扎·赖斯以及整个团队有诸多合理批评，但至少他们发起了一场持续一年多的全国性运动，努力说服美国人支持这场战争，并详细阐述了理由。
And also, the big difference between the Iraq War and the Iran War for all the valid criticisms of Bush and Cheney and Condoleezza Rice and that whole crew, at least they had a nationwide campaign for more than a year to convince Americans that they should support the war in laying out the case.
虽然其中充满了谎言、虚假信息和各种错误与无知的预测，但至少他们做了这些努力。
It was filled with lies and falsehoods and all kinds of wrong and ignorant predictions, but at least they did it.
而这场战争却只是突然间就出现了。
This war was just like, here it is.
而且关于是否应该发动第二次战争，根本没有进行过公开的、有意义的辩论。
And there was no public debate, meaningful debate about whether we should have a second war.
这也不是2024年竞选议题的一部分。
It wasn't part of the 2024 campaign.
所以我觉得这一切发生得太快了。
So I think it just happened so quickly.
我们究竟在做什么，目标是什么，从来都没有一个一致的合理解释或动机。
There was never really any consistent rationale or motive as to what we were doing or what the goals were.
我认为这并没有给美国人提供足够的动力去抗议。
And I just don't think that gave Americans the fuel to protest.
我觉得如果这件事进一步发展，你会看到的。
I think you will see that if this gets further
保守派媒体。
conservative media.
许多黄金IRA业务实际上根本不是关于销售黄金的。
Much of the gold IRA business is not actually about selling gold at all.
它实际上是向那些信任推销者声音的人出售大幅加价的硬币。
It's about selling massively marked up coins to people who trust the voices delivering the pitch.
为什么黄金是一种对冲工具？
Why is gold a hedge?
我决定与一家评级顶尖的贵金属公司合作。
I've decided to partner with a top rated precious metals company.
这些公司拥有独家控制权。
The companies have the exclusive control.
他们可以随时操纵硬币的价格。
They can manipulate the price of the coins at any time.
这就是它的阴暗面。
That's the dark side of it.
他说的是，你的亏损不会那么大，而且当市场上涨时，它们往往会迅速增长，这听起来显然好得不真实。
What he said was, you don't get as much of a loss, and they tend to really accelerate when the market goes up, which obviously sounds too good to be true.
我们知道这种情况正在发生，因为我们与这些公司内部的员工交谈过。
We know this is happening because we talk to people who work inside these companies.
现实是，没有任何监管。
The reality is there is no regulation.
然后我们采访了一些失去积蓄的人。
And then we talk to people who lost their savings.
他们一直在炒作这家公司，而我信任了他们。
They were pumping this company and I trusted them.
即使黄金价格上涨。
Even as the price of gold rises.
这太令人崩溃了。
It's so crushing.
我说不清楚。
I can't tell.
这是一
It's a
一个巨大的黄金骗局。
great gold scam.
现在请前往tuckercarlson.com观看。
Watch it now at tuckercarlson.com.
人们正在被抢劫。
People are getting robbed.
我们正在发出警报，希望您能加入我们。
We're sounding the alarm and we hope you will join us.
但在现代，抗议活动是被组织起来的，通过社交媒体或短信组织，由那些在政治上关心辩论结果的团体策划。
In the modern age, though, protests are organized, and they're organized over social media or by text message, and they're organized by groups with a stake in, you know, politically, whatever the outcome of the debate is.
所以，伊拉克战争的抗议活动是由团体组织的，乔治·弗洛伊德的抗议活动也是由团体组织的，我们可以识别出这些团体，并且它们得到了我们熟知的公司的资金支持。
So, you know, the Iraq war protests were organized by groups, and the George Floyd protests were organized by groups so we could identify and paid for by companies whose names we know.
这并不是随机的美国民众来到国家大草坪上表达他们的观点。
It's like there there it wasn't just random Americans showing up on the national mall to express their opinions.
他们当时是被动员起来的，我完全不批评这一点，但现在这种情况已经不再发生了。
They were bust in, and I'm not criticizing that at all, but that's not happening now.
所以，这不仅仅是美国人不再像以前那样积极参与，而是左翼阵营中似乎没有任何团体对此表现出强烈关注。
So it's not just that Americans aren't engaged like they're opposed to it, but there's no group on the left that seems interested in making a big deal out of this.
我觉得这太奇怪了。
I just find that so weird.
我认为另一个问题是，尽管有很多民主党人表面上反对，但当他们上MSNBC之类的频道时，国会中的民主党人并没有真正采取任何措施来阻止这场战争。
Well, I think the other problem with it is that although there are a lot of Democrats posturing as being opposed, you know, when they go on like MSNBC or whatever, there's no real effort on the part of the Democrats in Congress to take any steps that would actually impede the war.
也就是说，曾经就是否需要授权进行过投票，但他们输了那次投票。
I mean, there was a vote about whether they needed authorization and they lost that vote.
但事实上，民主党领导人查克·舒默、哈基姆·杰弗里斯都支持这场战争，尤其是查克·舒默。
But the reality is, is that the Democratic leadership, Chuck Schumer, Hakim Jeffries, they support this war, especially Chuck Schumer.
他们根本不想就拨款问题进行投票，因为他们觉得这在政治上不明智。
They have no interest in doing anything like having votes on funding because they don't think it's politically wise.
当作为反对党的民主党没有领导力时，我认为这也是导致全国性抗议活动稀少的原因之一。
And when you have no leadership from the Democratic Party, which is supposed to be the opposition party, I think that also contributes to a reason why there's not a lot of nationwide protests.
你需要有领导者来推动这件事。
You need leaders to do it.
但再说一次，我认为主要问题是这件事突然就冒出来了。
But again, I think the big issue was it just came out of nowhere.
你知道，这不像伊拉克战争那样，有时间让人们抗议。
You know, it wasn't like the Iraq War, other words, where you had time to protest.
你只是某天早上醒来，发现特朗普在半夜发了一条真正的社交媒体帖子宣布战争，然后战争就爆发了。
You just woke up one day and there was a true social post from Trump in the middle of the night announcing the war, and then there was the war.
是的。
Yeah.
不，这确实是个很好的观点。
No, that's a really good point.
所以，就像这么多其他变化一样，这一切都是悄无声息地发生的。
And so, like so many of these changes, it was unheralded.
它就这么发生了。
It just happened.
所以回到演讲的问题上，我知道有一个不太为人所知的时刻：佛罗里达州州长罗恩·德桑蒂斯——我认为他在某些方面是个不错的州长——前往以色列，签署了一些看似仇恨言论法案的文件，这些法案适用于佛罗里达州。
And so just back to the speech question, I know there was a not famous enough moment where the governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, who's, I think, been a pretty good governor in some ways, but traveled to Israel to sign what looked like hate speech laws that are applicable in Florida.
这是对事实的误述吗？
Is that a mischaracterization?
他的一些支持者否认这件事真的发生过。
Some of his supporters denied that actually happened.
这件事真的发生过吗？
Did it actually happen?
这意味着什么？
And what does it mean?
这件事确实发生了。
It did actually happen.
他真的两次前往以色列，在以色列签署适用于佛罗里达州民众的法律。
He actually went to Israel twice to sign laws in Israel that applied to people in Florida.
第一次的法律还算温和，并与以色列有一定关联。
The first one was kind of benign and had some connection to Israel.
但第二次，我认为是在2022年，他正为竞选共和党初选提名做准备，当时策略的重要部分就是争取并确实拉拢了大多数狂热的锡安主义团体、亲以色列活动人士和评论人士。
The second one, though, which was in, I believe, 2022 when he was gearing up to run for the Republican primary nomination, a big part of what the strategy was, was they were going to get, and they did get, most of the hardcore fanatical Zionist groups and pro Israel activist types and pundit types.
他们纷纷支持的不是特朗普，而是罗恩·德桑蒂斯。
They lined up not behind Trump, but behind Ron DeSantis.
而赢得这群人的支持是他策略的重要组成部分，好吧，这在政治中是人们常做的事。
And that was very much a part of his strategy was carrying favor with this crowd, which, okay, that's, you know, what people do in politics.
他去以色列签署了一项法律，我不想完全曲解这项法律，因为确实有些地方被夸大了，但这项法律明确规范了某些言论，对象不是以色列人，而是佛罗里达州的人。
To go to, and I don't want to completely mischaracterize the law because there is some, you can overstate it, but it absolutely was a law that took certain speech and prescribed it, not for the people in Israel, but for the people in Florida.
这项法律涉及资助仇恨言论项目。
And it was about funding hate speech programs.
而且，仅限于以色列的反犹太主义问题。
And again, only about anti Semitism in Israel.
他前往以色列就是为了签署这项法律。
And he went to Israel in order to sign it.
这确实是事实。
That was just true.
我也搞不懂这一点。
I can't I don't understand that either.
你知道，这并没有引发太多愤怒。
You know, that was not something that provoked a lot of outrage.
为什么他要在以色列签署针对佛罗里达州民众的法案，而这些法案实际上可能限制或压制佛罗里达州民众关于以色列的言论？
Why is he signing bills for the people in Florida in Israel when it actually can have the effect of confining or restricting the speech of the people in Florida in relation to Israel.
他似乎更倾向于支持这个外国，而不是那些选举他的人的公民。
It seems like he was siding with this foreign country over the citizens of the state that elected him.
至少，这太丢人了。
If nothing else, it's so humiliating.
这明显就是丢人现眼。
It's so obviously humiliating.
我的意思是，我为什么要跑到国外去签署一项影响我本州民众的法律？
I mean, I'm going to a foreign country to sign a law, any law that affects you in my state.
我的意思是，我只是想理解这种心理动机。
I mean, what what I mean, I'm just trying to understand the psychology here.
就像你刚才提到的很多事一样，我根本没想到这种事真会发生，所以当它真的发生时，我也没太在意。
I mean, again, like a lot of the things you've just mentioned, I didn't really believe that could actually have happened, so I didn't I wasn't as focused on it when it did happen.
我本该更关注的。
I should have been.
是我的错。
My mistake.
但我很好奇，那些推动这件事的以色列政府官员是怎么想的？当时确实有一些人，他们觉得这能帮到他们什么？
But I'm wondering the thinking of, like, these Israeli government officials who pushed this, there were some, how did they think that helped them?
他们就没想过这会引起反感吗？
Didn't they think that would engender resentment?
这怎么可能不引起反感呢？
How could it not engender resentment?
我的意思是，真的有吗？
I mean, did it though?
因为，你知道，我觉得当时并没有多少人关注到底有多少人知道罗恩·德桑蒂斯做了这件事。
Because, you know, again, I think that there wasn't that much attention paid how many people really know that Ron DeSantis did it.
每当我提起这件事，那些不知道的人总是感到震惊和愤怒，这很自然。
Every time I mention it, people who don't know are shocked and angry for obvious reasons.
但如果这件事是孤立发生的，你或许能找出某种合理的解释。
But if this were something that were done in isolation, you could create some kind of rationale.
你知道，再说一遍。
You know, again.
是的，当然。
Yeah, for sure.
德桑蒂斯试图扮演一个亲以色列的候选人。
DeSantis was trying to be a pro Israel, you know, candidate.
去那里确实能体现这一点。
Going there kind of does that.
那里有很多钱。
There's a lot of money there.
你知道，还有米里亚姆·阿德尔森。
You know, you have Miriam Adelson.
这可以是一种竞选策略。
It can be a campaign strategy.
但问题是，我可以给你指出每一个机构、法律和仇恨言论准则。
But the problem is, is that I can point you to every institution, laws, and hate speech codes.
你知道在10月7日之后，有多少人因为批评以色列或对以色列相关叙事持不同意见而被解雇了吗？
Do know how many people got fired after October 7 for expressing criticism of Israel or dissenting from the narrative about Israel?
比尔·阿克曼编制了一份黑名单，针对那些签署请愿书将冲突责任归咎于以色列的学生。
Bill Ackman assembled blacklist for students who signed a petition blaming Israel for the conflict in general.
10月7日之后，这是一场对言论的大规模打压。
This was a huge crackdown on speech after October 7.
媒体、新闻、艺术以及各个领域的人们都遭到了解雇，甚至在学术界也是如此，仅仅因为他们表达了关于以色列的、被认定为禁忌的观点。
People in media and journalism and art and everywhere got fired, including in, again, in academia for the crime of expressing views about Israel that were deemed off limits.
这种现象正在渗透我们的国家。
And it is pervading our country.
你能在每个行业随时看到这种现象。
You can see it in every sector all the time.
我的意思是，我一直在记录这些事。
I mean, I chronicle it all the time.
所以，大多数案例我一时想不起来，因为实在太多了。
So, it's like most of them aren't available off the top of my head because there's so many.
这会走向哪里？
Where does this go?
这完全与我们的立国文件、美国的历史以及美国文化本身相冲突。
Like, this is totally incompatible with our founding documents, with the history of The United States and with American culture itself.
太过分了。
It's too much.
所以，要么情况变得糟糕得多，要么这种现象就会消失。
And so it either becomes much, much worse or it goes away.
我认为我们无法维持现状。
I don't think we can stay where we are.
这是我的直觉。
That's my instinct.
你的看法呢？
What's yours?
我是犹太人。
Well, I'm Jewish.
所以，当人们谈论反犹主义和反犹主义危机时，我不会轻率地忽视这个问题。
So, when people talk about antisemitism and the crisis of antisemitism, that is something that I don't dismiss lightly.
像反犹主义在历史上一直都很危险。
Like antisemitism is It's been dangerous in history.
你知道，就像反黑人种族主义，还有其他许多类似的问题。
You know, like anti Black racism, lots of other things.
长期以来，在10月7日之后，有一种观点认为犹太人在美国面临独特的危险，这种受害者心态让我觉得非常难以信服，这还是客气的说法。
And for a long time, there was this kind of victimhood mentality after October 7 that Jews were uniquely endangered in The United States that I found very unpersuasive, to put it generously.
但我现在确实认为，当你看到这些忠于以色列的人收购我们的媒体，让以色列国防军士兵负责TikTok的内容审核，还有巴里·韦斯在CBS新闻中掌控内容审核时，情况就不同了。
But I do now think that when you have, you know, all these people who are loyal to Israel buying up our media and putting IDF soldiers in charge of TikTok censorship and Barry Weiss here at CBS News to kind of control the moderation.
而且除此之外，你知道，这场战争是为了以色列，或者至少以色列在其中扮演了非常重要的角色。
And on top of that, you know, you have this war now that was for Israel, or at least in large part, Israel played a very big role.
我的意思是，就连政府官员都提到了这一点。
I mean, even government officials mentioned that.
显然，以色列的主要对手就是它。
Obviously, was Israel's main adversary.
这一点无可否认。
There's no denying that.
这时我真正开始觉得，他们越是试图把反犹主义的指控强加给所有人，就越显得绝望，正如我们之前讨论的那样，他们越是干预我们的美国政治，试图实施言论管控和压制，特德·克鲁兹、林赛·格雷厄姆以及这些政客就越频繁地谈论他们去以色列的次数，声称他们竞选国会议员时的主要议题就是捍卫以色列。
That's when I really start to think that the more they try and view this antisemitism accusation at everybody, the more they get more desperate, as we were talking about before, and interfere in our American politics to try and, you know, have lockdowns and crackdowns on our speech, the more Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham and all these politicians constantly are talking about how often they're in Israel and saying that their main, you know, issue when they ran for Congress was defending Israel.
我认为这极有可能引发反犹主义，因为终有一天，人们会问：这里到底发生了什么？
I do think that has a very high potential of producing antisemitism because at some point, people are going to be asking, what is going on here?
为什么会有这么多来自这个外国的利益干预？是谁在背后操作？
Why is there so much external influence on behalf of this foreign country and who's doing it?
这让我非常担忧。
That is something that worries me.
嗯，我认为我们每个人都有充分的理由感到担忧，这确实在实际制造着反犹主义。
Well, I think you have every I think all of us have every reason to be worried, and it's absolutely producing actual antisemitism.
我每天上网都能看到，虽然我尽量少上网，但你根本躲不开。
I see it every single day when I go on the Internet, which I try not to do too much, but you can avoid it.
而且这确实是真实的。
And it's real, too.
这不仅仅是我不喜欢以色列的做法。
It's not just like, I don't like what Israel's doing.
APAC很糟糕，对此我强烈同意。
APAC is bad, which I vehemently agree with.
而是犹太人很糟糕。
It's like Jews are bad.
我不太清楚这一切究竟从何而来。
And it's not clear to me exactly where all of it's coming from.
我认为其中一部分是人为制造的。
I think some of it's inorganic.
很明显，这些基本上是意识形态上的虚假旗号。
Clearly, these are basically ideological false flags.
但我确实认为其中一部分是自发产生的。
But I do think some of it is organic.
我认为其中一部分绝对是真实的。
I think some of it is absolutely real.
我不愿同意ADL的观点，但就具体问题而言，美国的反犹主义正在上升吗？
And I hate to agree with the ADL, but on the specific point, is antisemitism rising in United States?
哦，毫无疑问。
Oh, no doubt.
而且情况很糟糕。
And it's bad.
简直糟糕透顶。
It's totally bad.
这引出了我更深层的担忧，这不是专门针对犹太人，而是关乎所有美国人。
So that kind of gets to my deeper concern, which is not about Jews specifically, it's about all Americans.
我觉得这个国家正在被煽动起族群冲突。
I feel like ethnic conflict is being encouraged in this country.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，我们以前也经历过族群冲突，而过去十年我们如此厌恶左翼意识形态及其表现方式，正是因为它们似乎蓄意利用这些原始而粗鄙的人口群体来分化人们，让他们各自抱团，互相指责，这种做法极其危险且不稳定。
I mean, we have had ethnic conflict before, and part of what we hated so much about the left wing ideology and the way it express itself over the last decade was the fact that it just seems so maliciously designed to defy people based on these very primal, crude demographic groups to separate them and tell them to all go into their corners and to blame the others, which is incredibly volatile and dangerous to do.
我觉得，你知道的，如果你打开电视，我不确定你平时看多频繁，但随着年龄增长，你会发现自己对某些媒体和娱乐领域一无所知，因为那些东西根本不是为你准备的。
And I think that, you know, if you turn on, I don't know how often you do this, but, you know, there's this whole like, as you get older, there's like these different sectors of media and entertainment that you know nothing about because it's not for you.
但我努力去关注它们。
But I try and make an effort to pay attention to them.
你知道，有那么多大明星，但只要你超过30岁，你就完全不知道他们是谁。
You know, there's all these like huge celebrities, but because you're over 30, you have no idea who it is.
对吧？
Right?
是的，没错。
Oh, yes.
我了解这些人。
I'm familiar.
但他们非常有名，而你却会想：这人是谁？
But they're super famous and you're like, who's that?
但我很努力，尤其是在政治话题上，我会去关注那些大主播以及Z世代参与政治的整个文化。
But I try hard, especially when it comes to political stuff, to pay attention to like big streamers and that whole culture where Gen Z does politics.
如果你进去听或看一段时间，你会惊讶地发现，其中对以色列的敌意有多么普遍、多么强烈，而且这种情绪常常会微妙地演变为——有时是讽刺的，有时是越界的——但与人们对犹太人的感受紧密相关。
And you will be shocked if you go in and listen to it or watch it for any amount of time how common, how overwhelming anti Israel sentiment is in a very aggressive way and how often it does kind of morph into, you know, sometimes ironically, sometimes transgressively, but it's very linked to how people feel about Jews.
塔克，让我就这一点简单说一句，因为这实在太重要了，很难在社交媒体上表达清楚。
And let me just say one quick thing on this, Tucker, because this is such an important point that it's hard to express like on social media or whatever.
以色列提出的IHRA仇恨言论定义中，有一条是……
One of the in that IHRA hate speech definition that Israel promulgated.
它最终被纳入了欧盟的刑法。
It ended up in the criminal law in the EU.
现在它也出现在澳大利亚。
It's now in Australia.
它也渗透到了我们的校园里。
It's on our campuses.
其中一项禁令是将犹太人和以色列混为一谈。
One of the things that bans is conflating Jews and Israel.
意思是，如果以色列做了坏事，你不被允许说‘这是犹太人干的’，因为这种混淆被视为反犹太主义——你把那些与以色列毫无关系的犹太人当作替罪羊，来指责你所批评的行为。
Meaning if Israel does something bad, you're not allowed to say, oh, this was done by Jews because that is a conflation that is considered anti Semitic because you're blaming a bunch of Jews who had nothing to do with Israel for what you're criticizing.
对。
Right.
然而，看看那些站在对立面、热爱以色列、总是声称担心反犹主义的人，他们却频繁地将以色列和犹太人混为一谈。
Yet, look how often the people who are on the other side of that debate, who love Israel, who constantly say they worry about antisemitism, they conflate Israel and Jews all the time.
我认为这就是问题所在。
I think this is the problem.
如果你说，以色列杀了，比如说，一万名儿童，他们立刻就会说：‘瞧，这是血祭诽谤。’
If you say, you know, Israel killed, you know, 10,000 children, they'll immediately say, Oh, look, blood libel.
他是在指控犹太人杀害了一万名民众，或者强奸了士兵。
He's accusing Jews of killing, you know, 10,000 people or having, you know, raped soldiers.
不，你并没有指控犹太人，你指控的是以色列。
And, No, you didn't accuse Jews, you accused Israel.
但当他们故意将两者混为一谈，以使对以色列的批评变得不可触碰，让你看起来像是在攻击犹太人，而实际上你并没有时，这种混淆本身也是一种极其危险的、他们自己在推动的混淆。
But when they conflate it in order to place criticism of Israel off limits to make it seem like you're attacking Jews, even though you're not, that too is a very dangerous conflation that they themselves are promoting.
因此，当人们现在想到以色列时，由于不断听到这种说法，他们脑海里自动等同于犹太人。
So that when people now think about Israel in their minds, because they're constantly hearing it, that means Jews.
所以，如果他们对以色列感到愤怒，认为以色列做了些可耻的事，不希望美国资助以色列或以色列干涉他国，这些很快就会变成对犹太人的指责。
So if they're angry at Israel, if they think Israel did something disgusting, if they don't want The US funding Israel or Israel interfering, that quickly becomes Jews.
而这是以色列支持者在管理这一话语时的过错。
And it's their fault, the fault of the people who are Israel supporters in managing this discourse.
我完全同意。
I couldn't agree more.
我认为这就是这里最初的罪恶。
I think that's the original sin here.
我觉得这非常短视且危险。
I think it's very shortsighted and dangerous.
如果有一个自称为基督教国家、只属于基督徒的国家——虽然实际上并不存在，但假如有，我会说：‘好吧，去你的基督教国家吧。’
If there were a self identified Christian nation that was just for Christians, there isn't one, but if there was, I'd be like, yeah, go Christian country.
我是基督徒。
I'm Christian.
如果那个国家开始以残暴、荒谬、欺骗的方式行事，开始因为血统杀害人民，行为极端到无法辩护，并且不断用宣传充斥我的媒体，声称每个基督徒都必须忠于这个国家，做着让我作呕的事，我会首先感到愤怒。
And then if that country started behaving in ways that were brutal and outrageous and deceptive and started killing people because of their bloodline, really behaving in ways that were impossible to defend, and they started filling my airwaves with propaganda about how every Christian has to be loyal to this country doing things that are nauseating to me, I would feel first of all, I'd be outraged by that.
别用我的名义做这种事，这是第一条。
Don't do that in my name, would be number one.
第二条，我会感到被威胁。
And number two, I would feel threatened.
我会觉得自己的人身安全受到威胁。
I would feel physically endangered by that.
你为什么要把我跟这个扯上关系？
Why are you tying me to this?
我跟这事儿一点关系都没有。
I've got nothing to do with this.
我的意思是，我想我会这样。
I mean, I would, I think.
事实上，9·11事件之后就发生了这样的情况。
Well, that was very much what happened, you know, after September 11.
当时存在一种巨大的危险：因为某些伊斯兰团体或伊斯兰国家参与了这场可怕的袭击，所有穆斯林都因此被归咎。
There was this huge danger that because some Islamic groups or Islamic countries had participated in this horrific attack that all Muslims were going to be blamed.
而且许多穆斯林有着各种不同的观点。
And so many Muslims had all sorts of different views.
你谈论的是数亿甚至十亿人。
You're talking about hundreds of millions of them or a billion.
乔治·W.
And one of the things George W.
布什值得称赞的是，从一开始就努力强调：我们并不是在与伊斯兰教作战。
Bush did, to his credit, was work very hard from the start to say, no, we're not at war with Islam.
不是伊斯兰教干了这件事。
This isn't Islam that did this.
而是这种被扭曲的伊斯兰教版本。
This is this distorted version of Islam.
我认为，我们现在所看到的正是如此：说‘以色列是犹太人的国家’，这是一项极其重要的修辞工具。
And that, I think, is exactly what we're seeing now is it's such an important rhetorical tool to say Israel is the state of the Jews.
哦，塔克·卡尔森说了这种可怕的话，尽管你之前说的是以色列，而不是犹太人。
Oh, well, Tucker Carlson said this horrible thing, even though you said it about Israel, about the Jews.
这种持续的混淆，正如你刚才所说，正是那些被与这个国家绑定在一起的人最应该恐惧并竭尽全力抵制的事情。
And this constant conflation for the reasons you just said is exactly what if you're in that group being tied up to this nation state, you should fear more than anything and combat as passionately as you can.
我的意思是，你一定有这种感受。
I mean, you must feel that.
我想你可能属于另一个类别，因为你是犹太人，但你整个职业生涯都持有同样的观点，并且一直对此直言不讳。
Well, I guess you're maybe in a separate category because you are Jewish, but you've had the same views for your entire professional life, and you've been very vocal about it.
但我的意思是，这对许多不反对以色列、却不同意内塔尼亚胡政府的人而言，一定是个真正的困扰，他们被强行与之关联，却并非本意。
But, I mean, this must be a, like, a real concern for a lot of people who aren't against Israel but are not on board with the Netanyahu government, and they're somehow tied to this against their will.
唉，真是烦人。
Like, ugh.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果你要让一个外国政府，正如我之前所说的，对另一个国家施加巨大的影响力，那你必须确保这种影响是极其微妙且相当明显的。
I mean, you know, if you're going to have this foreign country, and this is what I was getting at before, exerting massive amounts of influence inside another country, you better make sure that you're doing it in a way that's very subtle, that's fairly visible.
你
You
你知道，他们一直都在这么做。
know, and that they were always doing that.
这就是为什么他们对米尔斯海默和沃尔茨的书如此愤怒。
And that's why they were so angry at Ed Meersheimer and Wold's book.
如果你不记得了，回头看看他们当时受到的猛烈攻击。
You go back and if you don't remember, look at the just the absolute attacks on them.
人们之所以对这本书发疯，是因为它把一件一直被掩盖的事情拖到了阳光下。
People lost their minds about that book because it dragged into the light something that was always supposed to be secret.
现在的问题是，这已经不是秘密了。
The problem now is it's not secret.
绝望和恐慌迫使他们不得不现身，公开地展示他们正在做什么，而人们都看在眼里。
The desperation and panic have made them have to come out into the light and be very open about what they're doing and people see it.
如果你一直公开、高调、无处不在地宣扬我们必须改变法律、限制言论、开除人员来捍卫或保护这个外国，那么结果将是完全可以预见的。
And if you're going to just sit there and be very visible and vocal and all over the place about how we have to change our laws or restrict speech and everything else, fire people to defend this foreign country or protect this foreign country, the outcome is going to be very predictable.
我认为你正看到大量这样的情况。
And I think you're seeing a lot of that.
所以回到之前的问题，因为你不仅讨论原则和理念，长期以来也一直关注政治。
So just back to the previous question, because you don't just cover principles and ideas, but politics and have for a long time.
你认为这在政治上会走向何方？
Where do you think this goes politically?
也就是说，这个国家会变成什么样子？
Like, what does the country look like?
今年秋天我们将迎来中期选举。
We've got midterms this fall.
两年后，我们将举行总统大选。
Two years from then, we have a presidential election.
显然，将会发生一次重大重组。
Clearly, there's going to be a realignment.
新保守派故意摧毁了特朗普的选民联盟。
The neocons have intentionally blown up the Trump coalition.
他们从第一天起就憎恨它，因为它是所谓的‘美国优先’，这显然排除了将以色列放在首位。
They hated it from day one because it was, quote, America first, which obviously precludes putting Israel first.
所以他们想摧毁这个联盟。
So they wanted to destroy the coalition.
他们已经做到了。
They have.
基于这些事实，事情会落在哪里？
Where do things land given those facts?
你已经看到这种重大转变实际上正在顺利进行，甚至可能很快在民主党内部完成——对于民主党候选人，包括现任议员来说，如果他们过于支持以色列或接受APAC资金，竞选将变得几乎不可能，尤其是在初选中。
You're already seeing this major transformation actually well on its way, if not coming soon to its conclusion in the Democratic Party, where it's becoming almost untenable for candidates in the Democratic Party, including incumbents, to run, especially in primaries, if they're too supportive of Israel, if they accept APAC money.
这种转变已接近完成。
This transformation is close to complete.
这不会被逆转。
That is not going to be reversed.
以色列游说团体长期以来如此强大，是因为它超越了一切，始终是两党一致的。
And what made the Israel lobby so powerful for so long was that it was more than anything else bipartisan, unfailingly bipartisan.
它不是某一党或另一党的问题。
It wasn't one party or the other.
内塔尼亚胡某种程度上破坏了这一点，但当时仍有很多支持以色列的人站在民主党一边。
Netanyahu kind of destroyed that, but there were still a lot of pro Israel supporting the Democratic Party.
这种情况已经消失了。
That's gone.
我认为，如果我是以色列，而且我主要关心以色列在美国的地位，最让我担忧的是，现在这种变化正在右翼发生。
And I think if I were Israel and I were, you know, Israel first er in The United States, primarily concerned with the standing of that country in The United States, the thing that would alarm me the most is that this is now happening on the right.
我无法想象2028年共和党的初选竞选中，不会突出讨论这个问题。
I can't imagine a twenty twenty eight primary campaign in the Republican Party that does not prominently feature this question.
我也无法想象不会出现一位主要候选人，刻意占据这一立场，宣称：我们曾被告知，不会再有海外战争或海外牵涉。
And I also can't imagine that there's not going to be somebody like a major candidate who's not purposely occupying that lane of saying, we were told that we weren't going to have any more foreign wars or foreign attachments.
其中一个主要问题就是以色列。
One of the major problems is Israel.
我们并不憎恨以色列。
We don't hate Israel.
你知道，我们对它并没有敌意。
You know, we don't have anything against it.
我们只需要停止为它提供资金并为它打仗。
We just need to stop being responsible for funding it and fighting wars for it.
我认为这会很有吸引力。
And I think that's going to have a lot of appeal.
所以它总是会偏向民主党。
So it's always going to take the D.
C。
C.
建制派会持续很久。
Establishment very long.
我不知道苏珊·柯林斯是不是真的在四处奔走。
I don't know if Susan Collins is like walking around.
她曾承诺只担任两届。
She promised she was going only serve two terms.
我觉得她现在可能在寻求第七个任期。
I think she's getting like seeking her seventh.
有人走过去问她：‘你资助的那些加沙死去的人怎么办？’
And somebody went up to her and said, What about all these dead people in Gaza that you paid for?
她因为年纪大了，只是晕乎乎地跌跌撞撞上了车。
And she kind of like just stumbled into her car very dazed because of her age.
她只是脱口而出一句老生常谈：‘我支持以色列。’
She just like uttered this cliche, I'm pro Israel.
所以你看到这一代老派建制派人士是永远不会改变的。
And so you have this like older establishment generation that's never going to change.
他们的大脑里已经固化了这种思维，但你清楚地看到这一趋势——不仅在民主党，也在共和党中，这个问题正在迅速转变，虽然并非完全如此。
It's programmed in their brain, but you see the trend so clearly, not just in the Democratic Party, but in the Republican Party, where this issue is transforming and not solely, but rapidly.
这就是为什么新保守主义者如此憎恨查理·柯克，因为他早就看出了这一点。
Well, this is why the neocons so hated Charlie Kirk, because he saw this happening.
我记得今年夏天，你和我在我家做过一次访谈，你当时详细阐述了自己对以色列问题的看法，结果他们立刻泄露了一段录音，想让你难堪。
And I remember you and I did an interview at my house this summer, and you explained a lot of your views on this topic on Israel and were immediately, you know, they leaked a tape to try to embarrass you.
而第一个发自内心为你辩护的人，正是查理·柯克。
And one of the very first people to defend you in a heartfelt way was Charlie Kirk.
我观看时甚至感动了，因为这一切如此有原则，完全出乎我的意料。
And I was actually made it emotional watching it because it was just so principled and it was so not what you expect.
他为此付出了真正的个人代价，但他确实发自内心，因为他能看出，你和他虽然有分歧，但本质上对美国的未来有着相同的看法——那就是帮助这个国家。
And he did it at actual personal cost to do this, but he really meant it because he could see that you and he, while you have differences, were basically seeing the same picture of the future of America, which is like, let's help the country.
他们讨厌这一点。
And they hated that.
我这一生都不会忘记这件事。
I'll never forget that as long as I live.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，查理和我有过很多交流，查理是个非常有趣、独立且富有洞察力的思想者。
I mean, you know, Charlie and I have had a lot Charlie was a super interesting, independent, subtle thinker.
我知道，左派的人只要听到你对查理·柯克说一句好话，就会立刻暴怒。
And I know everybody on the left, if you say anything good about Charlie Kirk, they're immediately going to get enraged.
我根本不在乎。
I don't really care at all.
我认为我们在情感上，更重要的是在实质上，以一种极具说服力的方式，缺失了查理·柯克在这一战争及相关议题上的声音。
I think we are missing, like not just emotionally, but very substantively and in a very compelling way, the presence of Charlie Kirk when it comes to this war and related issues.
而且你知道，他非常支持斯诺登的爆料和言论自由。
And, you know, I mean, he was very supportive of Snowden reporting and free speech.
我们在很多方面都有共识。
We had a lot of that in common.
但还有这个问题，我曾与他交流，见证他思想的演变。
But also this question, and I talked to him as he was evolving.
而你知道，我所见过最令人反感的事情之一，就是塔克，长期以来，查理·柯克一直支持以色列。
And, you know, one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen, Tucker, was, you know, for a long time, Charlie Kirk was very pro Israel.
但他显然开始以各种方式质疑这一点，甚至到了拒绝取消你的平台资格的地步，哪怕这意味着失去数百万美元的捐款人——这些人不希望任何人在舞台上质疑或批评以色列。
And he obviously started questioning that in all sorts of ways to the point that he was refusing to deplatform you, even if it meant the loss of donors that in the millions of dollars who didn't want anybody questioning Israel or criticizing Israel on the stage.
他还在多次采访中，包括在自己的节目上，以及与梅根·凯利的一次大型访谈中，都提出了这样的问题：这里到底发生了什么？
And he went out in interviews, including on his own show and a big one with Megyn Kelly, where they both said, you know, what is going on here?
我们需要开始质疑这一切，但他们却竭力阻止你这么做，因为一旦你这么做，你的声誉就会被毁掉，他们会给你扣上反犹主义的帽子。
Like, we need to start questioning this, but they try and make it so that you can't because you'll have your reputation destroyed because they will call you anti Semites.
梅根说的一件事我觉得特别敏锐和有洞察力，那就是查理代表了年轻保守派，比如18到32岁这个年龄段的人。
And one of the things Megan said that I really think was observant and perceptive was that Charlie represented younger conservatives, you know, 18 to 32 or whatever the age group was.
而他们中的绝大多数都对以色列持反对态度。
And overwhelmingly, they are turned against Israel.
他不可能再继续做一个狂热支持以色列的铁杆拥护者。
And he couldn't just be this hardcore fanatical pro Israel champion.
他必须承认这场辩论正在展开，并且要主动开启这场讨论。
He had to acknowledge that the debate was opening and had to open that debate.
当他这么做的时候，他并没有背弃以色列，也没有变成反以色列，而是明显对美国对以色列的支持产生了怀疑。
And when he did, he himself started not abandoning Israel, not becoming anti Israel at all, but clearly being skeptical of U.
美。
S.
国对以色列的支持。
Support for it.
我永远不会忘记，就在他去世后几秒或几分钟内，本雅明·内塔尼亚胡就立刻出现在美国各大媒体上，那天一整天，之后连续几天，只要能上到的电视台，他都在谈论查理是如何美国历史上最坚定、最忠诚的以色列支持者。
And I will never forget that within seconds or minutes after he died, Benjamin Netanyahu was all over American media for, you know, that day, for hours, and then for days after on every network he could find, talking about how Charlie was the most stalwart, devoted Israel loyalist that The United States has ever produced.
这是一个非常奇怪的发展，但同时也是一种极具宣传性质的做法，旨在让人们忘记这件事。
And that was a very strange development, but it was also a very propagandistic one to try and prevent people from remembering it.
就连查理·柯克本人对整个以色列问题也产生了严重的疑虑。
Even Charlie Kirk was having serious second thoughts about the whole Israel issue.
事实上，他在本不必提及此事的时刻为你辩护了。
Well, he defended you, really, at a moment where he did not need to say a word about that.
你传统上是左派的著名人物，所以他并不是在向自己的受众讨好。
You're traditionally a very famous man of the left, so it's not like he was he was not pandering to his own audience.
显然，他激怒了捐款人。
Obviously, he was enraging his donors.
他们本来就已经对他很愤怒了，但他这么做除了出于真诚的信念外，别无他因。
They were already enraged with him, but there was just no reason for him to do that other than heartfelt conviction.
原则。
Principle.
原则。
Principle.
是的
Yeah.
我觉得那是我在美国政治中见过的最勇敢的行为之一。
Felt that was one of the bravest things I have ever seen in American politics.
这件事基本上被忽视了，但我就是想大声说出来，因为这揭示了他真实的样子。
It was basically ignored, but I just wanna say that out loud because that revealed who he was.
在那一刻，你本可以保持沉默，什么也不说。
Like, in a moment, you you you could just stay silent and just not say anything.
但他却停了下来，说：我想说，格伦·格林沃尔德，虽然我们在一些问题上有分歧，立场不同，但他是个正直的人，这是一场针对他的政治攻击。
He, like, stopped and said, I just wanna say, Glenn Greenwald, while we disagree on some things, we have different orientations, He is a good man, and this is a political hit on him.
而这正是关于以色列的问题。
And that was about Israel.
我的意思是，你刚经历过——我想这就是为什么这种攻击会发生，原因就在于以色列。
I mean, you had just I mean, I think that's why that hit happens because of Israel.
但不管原因是什么，他确实这么做了，这完全说明了他当时的想法，以及为什么他会被新保守派如此憎恨——看看他们立刻跳出来，说：‘哦，他是我最好的朋友。’
But whatever the cause, he did that, and that tells you everything about what he was thinking at the time and why he was so hated by the neocons and to see them get up and be like, oh, here's my best friend.
好的。
Okay.
不对。
Not true.
是的。
Yeah.
塔克，这个话题长期以来一直依赖于一种恐吓、欺凌和胁迫的氛围。
You know, this topic for so long, Tucker, has relied on a climate of intimidation and bullying and coercion.
这不仅仅是你会受到批评。
And it's not just that you get criticized.
我可以向你展示数百个在10月7日之前在美国因在以色列问题上越界而被解雇、失去资助或遭受其他各种后果的人。
I can show you hundreds of cases of people being fired before October 7 in The United States for stepping out of line in Israel or losing funding or all sorts of other ramifications.
而大多数人，如果他们比较自私或务实，或许最好避开这个问题，因为他们觉得，哦，我还有其他很多问题和麻烦。
And most people, if they're being, I guess, self interested or pragmatic, may be well advised to avoid it, you know, because they just figure, Oh, I have a lot of other issues and problems.
我不需要面对这个。
I don't need this one.
而且查理不仅在那件事发生前就一直支持以色列，就在那件事发生的当天，他还坚定地为我辩护，并暗示了可能导致此事的一些问题或原因。
And the fact that Charlie not only was doing it with Israel before that happened with me, but on the day that it happened, stood up and so emphatically defended me and implied some of the problems or the causes that probably led to it.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得看到那一幕，我也深受感动。
I remember seeing that, and I was really moved as well.
这让我情绪激动。
Oh, it made me emotional.
我甚至都没有直接参与
I'm not even connected
这件事。
to it.
对。
Yeah.
我只是和你们俩都是朋友。
Just was friends with both of you.
所以你觉得，我的意思是，我们现在是在猜测，但同时也基于当前所见的情况进行推断。
So do you think that I mean, it's we're we're guessing now, but we're also extrapolating forward based on what we're seeing right now.
你觉得这场与伊朗的冲突暴露了这么多问题，我们祈祷它能顺利解决，但如果继续按目前的轨迹发展，会不会重新调整双方的关系？
Do you think that what's this conflict with Iran, which has revealed so much and, you know, we pray it goes well, but if it continues to on its current course, does it does it kind of reorient the two parties?
它会动摇这个体系吗？
Does it shake up the system?
人们总说，不管你投谁的票，最终都会选出内塔尼亚胡总统，这话有一定道理。
People keep saying, you know, no matter who you vote for, you get President Netanyahu, and there's some truth in that.
我的意思是，别再自欺欺人了。
I mean, let's stop lying.
这话确实有一定道理。
There's some truth in that.
重大决策要么受到，要么直接由外国领导人影响或决定。
The big decisions are influenced, if not made, by a foreign leader.
这一切会在之后结束吗？
Does that end after this?
如果是这样，会如何呢？
And if so, how?
在过去三十年里，曾有过总统辩论，最近可能也有副总统辩论，当涉及以色列时，两党候选人会争论谁更支持以色列。
There have been presidential debates in the past thirty years, most recently probably, or vice presidential ones as well, where the two party candidates, when it came to Israel, started arguing about who was more pro Israel.
这通常就是我们被允许进行的辩论的限度。
That's typically the limits of the debate that we've been permitted to have.
我感到非常惊讶的一点是，也许我太天真了，但这既令人沮丧又令人震惊。
One of the things that I'm so amazed by, maybe I'm being naive here, but it's very frustrating and shocking at the same time.
伊拉克战争可能是我们这一代人经历过的最糟糕的灾难，甚至是最糟糕的。
Iraq war was one of the worst debacles, probably the worst American debacle in our lifetime.
2008年的金融危机以及其他种种事件。
The two thousand and eight financial crisis and all the other things.
但正是这些事件导致了人们对美国制度的诚信与可靠性失去信任和信心，从而引发了此后的一系列问题。
But that was what led to this whole unraveling of trust and faith in the integrity and reliability of American institutions that has caused so many things after that.
但同时也对那个地区本身造成了影响。
But also just the what it did to that region itself.
所有那些谎言，美国的信誉因这些谎言而受损，我们被告诉会发生的一切，没有一件成真。
All the lies that the credibility of The United States with those lies, everything that we were told would happen, none of it happened.
它催生了ISIS。
It gave rise to ISIS.
众所周知，这是美国历史上最糟糕的行动之一。
It was, you know, everybody acknowledges it was one of the worst actions in American history.
但二十年后的今天，我们却依然在这里。
And yet here we are twenty years later.
真正让我震惊的是，任何试图为对伊战争辩护的辩论，都完全沿用了同样的手段、同样的剧本、同样的言辞、同样的术语、同样的扭曲逻辑，甚至常常是同一批在2002年和2003年推销伊拉克战争的人。
And the thing that has really amazed me was to the extent there was any kind of attempt to have a debate about the Iran war to justify it, it was based on exactly, exactly the same tactics, the same script, the same rhetoric, the same jargon, the same twisted rationale, and often the same people who sold the war in Iraq back in 2002 and 2003.
我看到一个福克斯新闻的片段。
I saw a Fox News clip.
他们像是从某个地下巢穴或掩体里把康多莉扎·赖斯挖了出来，反正她现在就在那儿工作。
They, like, excavated Condoleezza Rice from some, like, underground lair or bunker or whatever in which she works these days.
他们让布雷特·贝尓采访她，她发表了长达五分钟的演讲，说我们必须对伊朗开战，以确保他们不拥有大规模杀伤性武器和核武器，不资助恐怖主义国家，并带来自由与民主。
And they put her on, Bret Baer did, and she gave like this five minute speech about how we have to go to war in Iran to, you know, make sure they don't have weapons of mass destruction and nuclear weapons and they fund terrorist states and will bring freedom and democracy.
她所说的话一字不差。
Verbatim what she was saying.
而这场辩论几乎完全相同。
And the debate has almost been identical.
所以我想说，是的，如果这场战争真的恶化，它将引发一场巨大的格局重组。
So I want to say, yeah, if this war goes really bad, it'll create this gigantic realignment.
而且也许确实会这样，因为这些导致伊朗战争的事件，包括我们正在讨论的以色列相关问题，可能会促成一场格局重组。
And maybe it will as part of, you know, these developments that these events that led up into the Iran war, including the Israel stuff we're talking about, could create a realignment.
但我也不确定。
But I don't know.
我原以为我们永远不会经历一场与伊拉克战争如此相似，甚至完全相同的新的战争。
I thought that we would never live through a very similar, if not identical, new war to the Iraq war.
然而我们如今却正在如此做，而且连借口都毫无新意。
And yet here we are doing exactly that in ways that aren't even pretextually different.
连剧本和演员都没换。
Like, they're not even changing the script or the cast of characters.
字面意义上。
Literally.
我想，从伊拉克战争中学到的一课是，重大变革的 groundwork 总是早已铺就，你隐约能看到它在构建，却并不真的相信它会发生。
And I guess one of the lessons I learned from the Iraq war is that, you know, the groundwork is always laid for big changes, and you sort of see it being built, but you don't really believe it's gonna happen.
我记得在2003年战争爆发前，就在白宫，有人告诉我，是的，我们即将入侵伊拉克。
I remember being at the White House right before the start, you know, like in 2003, and someone told me, yeah, we're about to invade Iraq.
当然，我曾可耻地支持过这场战争，但我并不真觉得它会发生。
And, of course, I'd been advocating for it shamefully, but I didn't really believe it was gonna happen.
即使我站在支持的一方，我也觉得这太疯狂了。
Even though I was, like, on the side of it, I thought that's too crazy.
他们跟9·11事件根本毫无关系，怎么可能真这么做呢？
Like, that can't actually they had nothing to do with nine eleven.
那我们为什么要这么做？
Like, so why are we doing this?
而那个人却显得很自然，当然我们要这么做啊，我却反问：你觉得这到底是什么？
And this person seemed, well, of of course, we're doing I'm like, what do you think this is?
所以吸取了那次教训后，当军舰开始驶向波斯湾时，我就反应过来了，对，看来这场战争是躲不掉了。
And so with that lesson in mind, when the ship started steaming toward the Persian Gulf, was like, yeah, it looks like we're gonna have a war.
把同样的道理放到IHRA的那项行动上看，你也能发现那种铺垫——那项行动就是要限制言论自由，把某些出于良知的观点和表达列为非法行为。
To take that same principle and apply it to the IHRA effort, you know, the effort to constrain free speech and to ban and to make illegal certain expressions of conscience and opinion.
你有没有觉得
Like, do you
我们正朝着那个方向发展
feel like we're getting to
一个会让美国人仅仅因为自己的观点就遭到逮捕的地方？
a place where people are going to be arrested in The United States for their opinions?
我们如今还能拥有第一修正案，真的该心怀感激——要是现在才来制定宪法，我们根本不会有这样的条款了。
The one thing we have is the First Amendment, which we should be very grateful for because if it were time to create a constitution now, would not have that.
我之所以能这么说，是因为我对很多其他国家都很熟悉，包括我现在居住的这个国家，那里就没有这样的保障。
And one of the ways I know that is that, you know, I'm very familiar with a lot of other countries, including one I live in, where that doesn't exist.
英国就没有这项权利。
The UK doesn't have it.
显然，整个欧洲都没有这项权利。
Obviously, throughout Europe doesn't have it.
但这种事情已经在其他国家发生了。
But it is already happening in other countries.
你知道，英国曾有两个乐队举办演唱会，其中一个乐队喊出了‘消灭以色列国防军’。
You know, there was a there were two bands in in The UK that did a concert, and and one of them said, death, death to the IDF.
不是‘消灭犹太人’，甚至不是‘消灭以色列’，而是‘消灭以色列国防军’——那是正在打仗的以色列军队。
Not death to Jews, not even death to Israel, death, death to the IDF, the the military of Israel that was fighting a war.
另一个乐队则演唱了一首关于真主党和哈马斯的歌。
And another one sang a song about Hezbollah and Hamas.
他们被以恐怖主义罪名提起刑事指控。
They were criminally charged with terrorism.
但法院就在上周最终驳回了这些指控。
The courts ultimately just in the last week threw it out.
我们刚刚看到澳大利亚一名女性被逮捕了。
We just saw the woman being arrested in Australia.
这绝对已经成了一种趋势。
This is absolutely the trend.
在西方，我认为把各方力量动员起来的导火索是2016年英国脱欧和特朗普击败希拉里胜选这双重冲击，这让西方精英觉得他们再也无法容忍现状了。
In the West, over the past, I think the galvanizing event was the dual traumas of Brexit and then Trump's victory in 2016 over Hillary that made Western elites think we cannot tolerate any longer.
互联网上的自由思想交流、新闻传播，这些都太难以预判，还会引发太多脱离他们掌控的危险后果。
Free exchange of ideas on the internet, dissemination of news, and it's just too unpredictable and causes too many dangerous outcomes that are out of our control.
但可以肯定的是，从方方面面来看，这都已经是大势所趋。
But for sure, this is the trend in so many ways.
而且对，西方国家正极为激进地摒弃他们原本对言论自由的信念，倒不是说要成为那种我所认同的绝对主义者，而是连最基本的原则都守不住了——你居然会因为表达政治观点而被国家惩处。
And yeah, the West is abandoning very aggressively their belief in free speech, not as some absolutist, you know, that concept in the way that I might affirm it, but just the basic notion that you can't be punished by the state for the expression of political views.
我觉得这现在就是全世界的通行规则了。
I mean, that is the rule everywhere in the world, I think.
除了美国之外，我不认为世界上还有哪个国家真正拥有言论自由，而且正如我们这一个小时以来一直在讨论的，美国的言论自由也正遭受冲击。
I don't know that there is a country in which free speech exists except The United States, and I and it's as we've been talking about for an hour, it's it's definitely under attack.
况且哪怕我们有第一修正案，还有第四修正案，可这些法条早就被 routinely 无视了。不对，重新翻：而且哪怕我们有保护言论的第一修正案，我们还有第四修正案，可它早就被一再无视了。
But do you despite the fact we have a First Amendment, we have all kinds we have a Fourth Amendment too, and it's routinely ignored.
我一直是这种侵犯的受害者，你也一样。
I've been the subject of, you know, it's violation, and you have too.
所以，宪法修正案、《权利法案》经常被无视。
So, like, amendments to the constitution, the Bill of Rights is ignored routinely.
你认为联邦政府会不会为了惩罚人们表达政府不喜欢的观点而推翻第一修正案？
Do you think it's possible that the First Amendment will be overridden by the state to punish people for having opinions the state doesn't like?
这听起来可能很天真，但这确实是我的第一反应。
Again, this is going to sound probably naive, but this is actually what my immediate reaction to it is.
如果你上过法学院——当然，所有联邦法官都上过法学院并接受过相关教育——当你学习司法历史之类的内容时，第一修正案是美国权利和宪法自由的‘皇冠明珠’这一观念早已深深植入你的脑海。
If you go to law school, which, of course, every judge in the federal judiciary does and has done, and you study, you know, the history of jurisprudence or whatever, the idea that the First Amendment is the kind of, you know, crown jewel of American rights and constitutional liberties is so indoctrinated into your brain.
而且在那之前就已经如此了。
And it is before that as well.
我们曾被教导，美国之所以与众不同、之所以卓越，正是因为我们可以自由表达而不受惩罚，而其他国家做不到。
Like one of the things we were taught is that the reason America is exceptional, the reason America is different is because we have the right to say things without being punished and other countries don't.
这种观念早已深深融入我们的文化之中。
This is something that's, you know, inculcated in our culture for so long.
所以我相信，总有一天法官们会开始从这一立场后退。
So, I'm sure there will come a day when judges will start to retreat from that.
但就目前而言，你已经看到一些不错的案例，法官们在此划出了非常明确的界限。
But for the moment, and you've seen some actually good cases where judges draw a line pretty rigorously.
不行，国家不能这么做。
No, the state can't do this.
问题是，如今的审查很大程度上是由大型科技公司、通过网络实施的，而且人们越来越能找到规避的方法。
The problem is, is that so much of the censorship now is through big tech companies, is through online, and there are ways to circumvent it increasingly.
我也确实认为，如果这些西方自由民主国家开始采纳一种真正激进的审查框架，美国的政治格局也会发生变化，我很容易想象它们也会开始寻找规避的方法。
And I do also think that, you know, if these Western liberal democracies start embracing a true aggressive form of a framework of censorship, you have political changes in The United States, and I could easily see them starting to find ways to circumvent it too.
这些都不是永久不变的。
None of these things are permanent.
没有任何一件事是得到保障的。
None of them are guaranteed.
你知道，你以为那些写在纸上的权利是理所当然的。
You know, you have rights that you think are guaranteed on a parchment.
我见过很多次了。
And I've seen it many times.
每个研究历史的人都见过，它在下个月或下一年就消失了，尽管没有任何程序被用来消除它。
So has everybody who studies history, it's gone the next month or the next year, even though none of the processes to get rid of it were invoked.
对。
Right.
没错。
That's right.
而且你也看到，在很多国家，旧制度的外壳仍然保留着。
Or, you know, and you see this also in a lot of countries where the husk of the old system remains in place.
罗马元老院仍然在开会，但已经不再是立法机构了。
The Roman Senate is still, you know, gathering, but it's not a legislative body anymore.
它只是一个象征性的机构之类的。
It's a symbolic body or whatever.
这种存在是为了巩固威权权力。
Existence is designed to bolster authoritarian power.
它并不是对专制权力的制衡。
It's not a counterbalance against authoritarian power.
就像你看到的那样。
Like, you've seen that.
我的意思是，津巴布韦的法官们仍然戴着假发。
I mean, judges in Zimbabwe still wear wigs.
是的。
Yeah.
在英国也是这样。
And in The UK too.
让我补充一点，虽然我刚才给出了一个乐观的答案，但事先我就知道，这可能有点天真。
Let me just add one thing is that even though I kind of gave a rosy eyed, optimistic answer, but I won in advance, might've been naive.
一旦到了战争时刻，一切规则都作废了。
When it comes time for war, all bets are off.
我们在反恐战争的中期就见过这种情况，纽特·金里奇写了一篇文章，说现在是时候废除并限制第一修正案了。
We've In seen that in a lot of the middle of the war on terror, Newt Gingrich wrote this article saying it's time to repeal and limit the First Amendment.
已经出台了各种措施，并且得到了法院的认可。
There have been all kinds of measures designed to, you know, accepted by courts.
我的意思是，你去查一下就能找到。
Mean, I you can go find it.
它在网上就能看到。
It's online.
就像2006年，我们正在为美国的生活方式以及我们的权利和自由而斗争。
It's like 2006, we're fighting for the American way of life and our rights and liberties.
而他却说，废除第一修正案吧。
And he's like, repeal the First Amendment.
但战争来临时才真正可怕，因为人们往往容易受到战争宣传的影响。
But war is when things get really scary because people, you know, war propaganda is so effective.
如果你理性地看待，其实可以清晰地拆解它，但人们通常不会理性地回应战争宣传。
If you look at it rationally, you can deconstruct it transparently, but you don't really react to war propaganda rationally.
战争宣传的设计就是为了激发最原始的本能——部落主义、爱国主义、打击坏人以及一种高尚感。
It's designed to trigger like most primal influence instincts of tribalism and, you know, patriotism and getting bad guys and feeling noble.
当这种情况发生时，人们开始认为，如果你对战争的批评过于激烈，或者质疑战争的真实原因，这不仅仅是一种不负责任或破坏性的观点，而可能逐渐被视为叛国或通敌行为。
And when that happens, people do start to think that if you're criticizing the war a little bit too excessively, if you're questioning the real reasons for the war, that this is somehow not just an irresponsible or destructive opinion, but it starts to ease into sedition or treason.
我们在许多不同的美国战争中都见过这种情况。
We've seen this a lot in many different American wars.
我认为现在确实能感受到这种趋势。
And I do think there's kind of a sense of seeing that now.
我的意思是，虽然我并不能指出具体谁被定罪或指控为叛国，但确实存在大量这样的舆论，不仅来自普通账号，甚至主流媒体也认为这种事应该发生。
I mean, not so much that I can point to somebody convicted or charged with sedition, but there's a lot of sentiment going around, not just from random accounts, but in mainstream ones that this needs to happen.
正如你之前所说，当事情发生变化时，往往是大量美国人死亡的时刻，这就是9/11之所以成为我们一生中最深刻事件的原因——三千名美国人死在了镜头前，那简直是最糟糕的事，也是我见过的最可怕的事。
Well, as you said earlier, when things change is the moment at which, like, lots of Americans die, and that's why nineeleven was the most profound thing to happen in our lifetimes because three thousand Americans died on camera, and it was just like the worst thing anyone still the worst thing I've ever seen.
我认为每个美国人都有这种感受。
And I think every American felt that way.
因此，那时掌权者就有了借口去做他们原本不可能被允许做的事，比如成立运输安全管理局，或者入侵伊拉克。
And so at that point, it gives the people in charge license to do things they would not be allowed to do, like create TSA or whatever, invade Iraq.
所以你是否担心，可能会在美国本土发生袭击，然后呢？
And so are you concerned that, you know, there could be attacks here in The United States and like what then?
我觉得美国已经发生过一次袭击了，就是奥斯汀枪击案，但我们很少听到关于它的消息，但它似乎明显与伊朗战争有关。
I feel like there was already an attack in The United States that at Austin shooting for we haven't heard much about it, but it seemed pretty clearly linked to the Iran war.
如果这种情况持续下去，我会非常非常惊讶，如果还会有其他袭击发生，而这再次意味着，我们不仅为了另一个国家的公民而打仗，还在为了许多不同的原因危及我们本国公民的安全。
And if it goes on, I would be very, very surprised if there are others, which again, I think means that not only are we fighting a war for the benefit of citizens in another country, we're doing it by endangering the citizens of our own country for so many different reasons.
我认为，如果情况发展到失控的地步，出现大规模伤亡的袭击事件，无论是美国还是其他国家，都会毫无疑问地立即实施紧急措施，而这些紧急措施在危机过后从来不会消失。
And I do think if it gets to the point where, you know, this really gets out of hand and you start to see mass casualty attacks in history of The United States and other countries leaves no doubt that emergency measures will be instantly imposed and those emergency measures don't go anywhere when there are emergencies.
《爱国者法案》就是这样的历史。
That was the history of the Patriot Act.
《爱国者法案》是一项激进、极端、违背美国精神的法律，据说是在9·11事件后我们急需的。
The Patriot Act was this radical extremist un American law that we needed supposedly in the wake of nineeleven.
他们向我们保证：别担心，这只是暂时的。
They assured us, oh, don't worry, it's going be temporary.
现在已经是2026年了。
Here we are in 2026.
它已经融入了我们的制度日常，再也没人提起它了。
It's part of our woodwork and nobody ever talks about it anymore.
这些事情就是这样迅速被人们习以为常的。
That's how quickly these things can get normalized.
天啊，我希望你永远不要停播，我希望这不会是我们最后一次对话。
Man, it's Well, I hope you never go off the air because I hope this isn't our last conversation.
格伦·格林沃尔德，感谢你抽出这么多时间并分享你的智慧。
Glenn Greenwald, thank you for all your time and your wisdom.
继续做好工作，塔克。
Keep up the great work, Tucker.
每次见到你都太棒了。
Always great to see you.
谢谢，格伦。
Thanks, Glenn.
再见。
See you.
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