泄露的内塔尼亚胡警方审讯录像，以及他如何借战争之名苟延权力

亚历克斯·吉布尼，非常感谢你参与这次访谈。

Alex Gibney, thank you very much for doing this.

多年来，本雅明·内塔尼亚胡一直出现在美国媒体中，但我认为美国公众对他在国内以色列所面临的困境几乎一无所知。

So for all the years that Benjamin Netanyahu has been in the American media, I think there's very little sense in The US about his domestic troubles in Israel.

我们不断听到他被指控，而美国总统却一直表示他应该被赦免。

We keep hearing he's been charged, and the president The United States keeps saying he needs to be pardoned.

你制作了这部纪录片，揭示了这场争议的核心所在。

You've made this documentary that explains what is at the core of this controversy.

也就是说，他到底被指控了什么？

Like, what are the charges?

他被指控做了什么？

What is he accused of doing?

他真的做了吗？

Did he do it?

所以，我会退后一步，让你来阐述一下本雅明·内塔尼亚胡被指控了哪些事情。

So I'm gonna stand back and just let you, if you would, outline what Benjamin Netanyahu has been accused of

做这些事。

doing.

总的来说，你会说这是贿赂，或者说这是腐败。

Well, roughly speaking, you'd you'd say it was bribery, or you'd say it was corruption.

我的意思是，我可以详细说明这些指控。

I mean and and I can detail the charges.

这是一部我制作的纪录片，由亚历克西斯·布鲁姆执导。

This is a film that I produced, and it was directed by Alexis Bloom.

早在2023年，我收到一条来自信号应用的奇怪消息，对方说他们掌握了本雅明·内塔尼亚胡调查中的全部警方审讯录像。自2016年以来，他们一直在调查内塔尼亚胡涉嫌腐败的指控，即他利用总理职位换取利益——包括为妻子获取珠宝、昂贵的古巴雪茄，以及为一家名为Walla的新闻网站提供有利报道，以换取数亿美元的贷款减免。

And back in 2023, I got a strange message on signal from somebody who said that they had all of the police interrogation videos from the Benjamin Netanyahu investigation, and they had been investigating Netanyahu since 2016 for charges of corruption, that is to say trading on his position as prime minister to get money in, all sorts of, favors, jewelry for his wife, very expensive Cuban cigars, hundreds of millions of dollars in forgiveness of certain loans in order to be able to get favorable coverage on a news website called Walla.

这是一个相当有趣的案件，从非常小的细节开始，比如来自著名电影制片人阿农·米尔坎的昂贵古巴雪茄，到非常重大的事件，即一项价值2.5亿美元的财务交易，以换取对内塔尼亚胡的正面报道。

So it was a it was a pretty interesting case, and it went from the very small, meaning, you know, very expensive Cuban cigars from a a rather famous movie producer named Arnon Milchan, to something very big, which is effectively a $250,000,000 financial arrangement in exchange for coverage, good coverage for Netanyahu.

所以这确实是个大事件。

So so it was a pretty big deal.

那么你拿到了录音带？

What did the so you got the tapes.

让我问一下，在你能说的范围内，这些材料是从哪里来的？

Where let me just ask to the extent you can say, where did they come from?

我不能说它们的来源。

I can't say where they came from.

是的。

Yeah.

我不能透露任何关于来源的信息。

I I I can't say anything about the source.

但我可以说，我们获得了超过一千小时的录音，这些是警方对内塔尼亚胡本人、他的妻子莎拉、儿子亚伊尔，以及多位与内塔尼亚胡关系密切的关键人物的访谈。

But what I can say is we got over a thousand hours of tapes, and they these were interviews with Netanyahu himself by the police, also Netanyahu's wife, Sara, his son, Yair, also with a number of key people close to Netanyahu.

例如，他的前通讯主管尼尔·赫费茨。

For example, Nir Hefetz, his former head of communications.

谢尔登·阿德尔森，我们在这个国家熟知的亿万富翁，现已去世，他的妻子米里亚姆·阿德尔森，还有阿尔农·米尔恰恩——一位著名的以色列商人、军火商，同时也成为了一位非常著名的电影制片人。

Sheldon Adelson, who we know in this country as a as a billionaire, now deceased, his wife, Miriam Adelson, Arnon Milchan, a famous Israeli businessman, arms dealer, who also became a very famous motion picture producer.

因此，这是一系列非同寻常的证据。

So it was a kind of an extraordinary array of evidence.

虽然其中一些证据已经在以色列以书面形式公布，但没有人见过这些录音。

And and while some of this evidence had been published in Israel in written form, nobody had seen the tapes.

这些录音非常能说明问题，尤其是对内塔尼亚胡而言，因为他一直试图塑造自己作为以色列伟大政治家的形象。

And the tapes are very revealing, particularly for Netanyahu, because Netanyahu tries to cultivate this this image of the grand vizier, the the the great statesman of Israel.

但在这里，你看到的却是一个卑劣腐败的人，拼命撒谎以保全自己，还有他那位极度傲慢的妻子，居然还说：‘那又怎样，我们拿了点东西？’

Here, you see a rather petty corrupt man desperately lying to save his skin and and his wife who's a deeply entitled woman, you know, trying to claim that, so what if we got stuff?

我的意思是，我们配得上，因为我们为国家和世界做了这么多。

I mean, we deserve it because we're doing so much for for the nation and for the world.

还有他的儿子亚伊尔，同样极度傲慢，对着警察大喊大叫，说你们就像斯塔西一样。

And his son, Yair, who is also extremely entitled, screaming at the police yelling, you know, you're like the the Stasi.

这让我们得以窥见面具背后的真实人格，就像《绿野仙踪》里托托掀开帘子的那一刻，巫师慌忙喊着：‘别在意，别在意。’

So it it was an illuminating look at the actual character behind the facade, sort of like that moment in The Wizard of Oz where, you know, Toto pulls back the curtain, and and the wizard says, please pay no attention.

他真的非常——

And he was really If

你可以，而且我认为观看这个节目的人会去看这部电影，但我很想知道，你看了上千小时的这些材料后，有什么看法。

you can and I think people watching this will watch the film, but I'm interested in your take having watched a thousand hours of this.

那具体来说，你认为这些内容揭示了总理及其性格的哪些方面？

What is it can you go more deeply into what do you think it reveals about the prime minister and his character?

我认为这揭示了一种根深蒂固的腐败，以及他为了自保几乎愿意做任何事的态度。

Well, I think it reveals, I think, a kind of deep seated corruption, a willingness to do almost anything to save his skin.

我认为，他在2015年大选后变得极度傲慢，觉得自己终于成了那个关键人物，因为他从看似失败的境地逆转为一场巨大的胜利，从此产生了强烈的特权感。

I think that, he became possessed after the election in 2015 of a sense of enormous arrogance, that he was now the man, because he came back from what seemed to be a defeat to an enormous victory, and now he had this sense of entitlement.

有趣的是，他随后开始利用这种特权，结果被抓住了。

Interestingly, then he began to, you know, cash in on that entitlement, and he was caught.

但接下来发生的是，当他听到牢门即将在自己面前关闭的声音时，他开始做出一些将以色列推向非常黑暗方向的事情。

But what happened then was that rather you know, as he heard the sound of the possibility of the jail door slamming shut on him, he began to start to do things that really took Israel in a very dark direction.

他首先试图控制司法部。

The first thing he tried to do was to essentially fix the Department of Justice.

他试图推动一系列改革——这发生在10月7日之前。

He tried he tried to engage in a series of, this is before October 7.

他试图推动一系列司法体系改革，以削弱以色列司法系统的权力。

He tried to engage in a series of reforms of the judicial system, which would weaken the power of of of the judiciary in in Israel.

很可能是因为这会削弱针对他的指控。

Most likely because that would undermine the case against him.

这是最直接可能的结果。

That's the most direct likely outcome.

但另一件事是，到那时他已经组建了一个极右翼联盟政府，成员包括国家安全负责人本·加维尔和财政部长斯莫特里奇。

But the other thing was that by this time, he had formed a government with an extremely right wing coalition with a guy named Ben Gavir, who is head of national security, and a guy named Smotrich, who's a is a head of the of finance.

他们都是极右翼，极端反巴勒斯坦，其目标是扩大约旦河西岸的非法定居点。

They are extremely right wing, extremely anti Palestinian, and their designs were to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank.

在某些情况下，尽管巴勒斯坦人在约旦河西岸的处境已经非常严峻，但仍然会有司法命令阻碍这些行动。

And in some cases, while while it was already a dire situation for Palestinians on the West Bank, Nevertheless, there would be judicial orders, which would sometimes get in the way of that.

这也是这一系列行动的另一个方面。

That was another aspect of this.

当内塔尼亚胡试图改革司法系统时，全国爆发了抗议，人们对这些改革严重削弱以色列民主感到极度愤怒。

Well, when Netanyahu tried to, fix the judiciary, the country rose up, and it was in a in a huge uproar over over over these changes, were fundamentally undermining Israel's democracy.

不久之后，哈马斯在10月7日发动了可怕的袭击，震惊了以色列。

Not too long after, of course, there was the terrible attack by Hamas on October 7, which shocked Israel.

人们开始了解到，多年来，内塔尼亚胡——我认为这既是他看待世界的方式，也是更广泛腐败感的一部分——一直在试图调节与哈马斯的关系，甚至允许数以百万计的美元从卡塔尔流向哈马斯，有时是以现金袋的形式经由以色列运送。

What people began to learn was that for years, Netanyahu, again, I think as part of the way he sees the world and as part of a kind of more generalized sense of corruption, had been trying to modulate the relationship with Hamas, and indeed had been allowing millions and millions of dollars to flow to Hamas from Qatar, sometimes in bags of cash traveling through Israel.

他这样做的目的是削弱约旦河西岸的巴勒斯坦权力机构，以便让他的右翼联盟能够通过定居点获取越来越多的领土。

And the reason he was doing that was to undermine the Palestinian authority on the West Bank in order to be able to allow for his right wing coalition to get more and more territory via settlements.

因此，各种奇怪的腐败交易都在发生。

So all sorts of strange corrupt deals were happening.

但随后，在十月七日之后，那是一个可怕的时刻。

But then I think that post, ten seven, which was a terrible moment.

我绝不想以任何方式淡化它。

I don't wanna minimize it in every in in any way.

这是一次可怕的袭击，我们在影片中展示了一些袭击的画面。

It was a horrific attack, and we show some of that attack in the film.

但他随后对加沙发动了攻击，其程度完全超出了任何比例原则。

But, he then launched an attack on Gaza, which was so beyond any sense of proportionality.

如今，我们至少已有七万五千人死亡。

Now we have at least over 75,000 people dead.

当然，现在我们有了伊朗战争和黎巴嫩战争，等等等等。

Of course, now we have an Iran war and a Lebanon war and so forth and so on.

但我坚信，不仅仅是我说，电影中所有那些非常有声望的以色列安全机构证人都指出，这场战争如此残酷、野蛮的部分原因，是为了让 Netanyahu 成为战时总统，从而无法被起诉或成功起诉他所犯下的罪行。

But one of the goals, I'm convinced, and not me, but all of the witnesses who are, you know, very reputable members of the security establishment in Israel in the film, indicate that part of the enduring the ferocity, savagery of the war was due to becoming a wartime president who could then not be prosecuted or successfully prosecuted, for the crimes he had committed.

审判，不仅是调查，现在确实已经进入了审判阶段。

The the trial, the not only the investigation, but now there's been a trial.

审判仍在进行中。

The the trial is still ongoing.

这距离调查开始已经十年了。

This is ten years after the investigation started.

只要他还是最高统帅，还在发动战争，谁敢攻击总统？

So long as he's the commander in chief and he's waging war, how dare you attack the president?

因此，这种始于雪茄和粉红香槟——它们还有代号——的卑劣个人腐败，逐渐演变为与媒体相关的腐败交易，最终成为一种机制，使腐败缓慢但持续地加剧，直至演变为如今这个世界所陷入的道德腐败。

So in a way, this kind of venal personal corruption that starts with cigars and pink champagne for which they had code names, you know, and then evolves into corrupt deals relating to the media becomes a mechanism by which slowly but surely the corruption got greater and greater and greater until it became a moral corruption in which the world is now engulfed.

我们有了一个新伙伴。

We've got a new partner.

这是一家名为 Cowboy Colostrum 的公司。

It's a company called Cowboy Colostrum.

这是一个真正关注健康的品牌，其产品设计旨在与你的身体协同作用，而非对抗你的身体。

It's a brand that is serious about actual health, and the product is designed to work with your body, not against your body.

它是一种纯净简单的产品，完全天然。

It is a pure and simple product, all natural.

与其他品牌不同，Cowboy Colostrum 从未被稀释。

Unlike other brands, cowboy colostrum is never diluted.

它始终直接来自美国的草饲奶牛。

It always comes directly from American grass fed cows.

没有任何填充物。

There's no filler.

没有任何劣质成分。

There's no junk.

全是好东西。

It's all good.

味道不错，你信不信。

It tastes good, believe it or not.

所以在你为任何药物解决不了的问题继续服用更多药片之前，我们建议你试试这款产品——Cowboy Colostrum。

So before you reach for more pills for every problem that pills can't solve, we recommend you give this product, Cowboy Colostrum, a try.

它包含了你的身体康复和茁壮成长所需的一切。

It's got everything your body needs to heal and thrive.

它就像一种原始的超级食物，富含营养素、抗体和蛋白质，有助于增强免疫系统，让头发、皮肤和指甲更健康。

It's like the original superfood loaded with nutrients, antibodies, proteins, help build a strong immune system, stronger hair, skin, and nails.

使用这款产品后，我把假发扔了，重新长出了自己的天然头发。

I threw my wig away and right back to my natural hair after using this product.

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You just take a scoop of it every morning in your beverage, coffee, or a smoothie, and you will feel the difference every time.

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For a limited time, people listen to our show get 25% off the entire order.

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So go to cowboycolostrum.com.

结账时使用代码 Tucker。

Use the code Tucker at checkout.

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25% off when you use that code, Tucker @cowboycolostrum.com.

记得你之前提到过，新年到了，但这并不意味着你必须彻底改变生活，尽管有人声称如此。

Remember you mentioned you heard it So the New Year is here, but that does not mean you've gotta overhaul your whole life despite claims to the contrary.

你不需要采取极端措施。

You don't have to take drastic measures.

稍作一些调整，你就会好很多。

Make a few changes here and there, and you'll be a lot better off.

你可以从 pantry 里的零食开始。

And you can start with the snacks in your pantry.

说实话，标准美国薯片品牌的产品相当糟糕，含有大量化学成分，让你感到沉重和胀气。

Now products from standard American chip brands are, let's be honest, pretty repulsive, filled with chemicals that make you feel heavy and bloated.

它们的味道甚至也不怎么样。

They don't even taste that good.

它们对你没好处。

They're not good for you.

我们推荐升级为马萨薯片。

We recommend an upgrade with masa chips.

马萨是无需感觉在节食的情况下健康饮食的最简单方式。

Masa is the easiest way to eat clean without feeling like you're on a diet.

这些薯片只含有三种成分。

The chips contain three ingredients.

就这些。

That's it.

有机玉米、海盐、100%草饲牛肉脂，仅此而已。

Organic corn, sea salt, 100% grass fed beef towel, and that is it.

没有种子油，没有神秘化学物质，只有真正的食物。

No seed oils, no mystery chemicals, just food, actual food.

而且它们非常棒，吃完后你会感觉很棒。

And they're amazing, and you feel great after.

你不会觉得沉重。

You don't feel weighed down.

我们最近特别喜欢意大利面酱口味，但所有口味都很棒。

We particularly enjoyed the carbonara flavor lately, but they're all great.

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You wanna give them a try?

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Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order, or you can click the link link in the video description, or you can scan the QR code to claim this outstanding offer.

如果你不想在线下单，可以在全国任何一家 Sprouts 超市购买。

And if you don't feel like ordering online, you can buy them nationwide at your local Sprouts supermarket.

赶紧去拿几包吧，别被别人抢光了。

Stop by and pick up a couple of bags before somebody else does.

你是最先的。

You're first.

在10月7日之后，以色列公众中确实有人出现，而那显然是哈马斯所为，且显然非常恶劣。

There there were there were people in Israel in public right after October 7, which clearly was committed by Hamas and was clearly terrible.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

我想说清楚。

I want to be clear.

但有一群人，包括我认识的一些人，说等等，你知道，如果以色列政府真的努力阻止，这种事情本不可能发生。

But there were a bunch of people, including people I knew who said, wait a second, you know, this couldn't have happened if the government of Israel had really tried to prevent it.

好吧。

Okay.

所以，哈马斯武装分子骑着摩托车、滑翔伞，甚至徒步，穿越了世界上戒备最森严的边境，而以色列国防军的反应却出现延迟，这实在很奇怪。

So there's something very strange about the ability of Hamas fighters on motorbikes and gliders and on foot coming across the most heavily guarded border in the world and the delay in the response of the IDF to this.

这到底是怎么回事？

Like, what is this?

正如你所知，在美国，几乎没人敢这么说，但告诉我，你在以色列接触的人现在对这次袭击有什么看法。

And it's almost forbidden to say that, as you know, in The United States, but tell me what people you spoke to in Israel now believe about that attack.

我应该指出，当你说到‘我采访了’的时候，我的意思是，拍摄这部影片的人是亚历克西斯·布鲁姆。

I should point out that when when when you say I spoke to, I mean, the the person who directed the film was Alexis Bloom.

我拿到了这些素材。

I got the footage.

亚历克西斯是我的朋友。

Alexis is my friend.

当然。

Of course.

我是在请你代表这部影片发言。

I'm asking you to speak for the film.

好的。

Sure.

好的。

Sure.

好的。

Sure.

没问题。

No problem.

无论如何，我认为有很多人认为，应当对内塔尼亚胡是否知晓哈马斯可能即将发动袭击一事展开正式调查。

In any event, I think there were a lot of people who felt that a proper investigation into what Netanyahu knew about the possible impending attack by Hamas should be commenced.

然而，由于他现在正与哈马斯交战，这件事就被掩盖了。

However, that got rolled under the carpet because of the fact that he's now in a war with Hamas.

我的意思是，哈马斯根本没有空军。

I mean, Hamas doesn't really have an air force.

你不能真正称之为，但我认为很多人在讨论内塔尼亚胡对10月7日袭击究竟提前知晓了多少、有多大的预警。

You can't properly call it But a but I think there was a lot of talk about how much and and and what advanced warning Netanyahu may have had about the October seventh attacks.

我从未见过这方面的表面证据，但在以色列，关于此事的讨论确实很多。

I I've never seen, you know, prima facie evidence of that fact, but there's certainly a lot of talk about it in Israel.

好的。

Okay.

所以，不只是网络上的疯子才认为本雅明·内塔尼亚胡可能早有预感、知道袭击即将发生，却因身处政治困境，没有尽力阻止以色列境内的损失——因为他希望这场战争能转移公众注意力，让他得以摆脱指控。

So it's not just crazy people on the Internet who think it's possible or likely that Benjamin Netanyahu knew this was coming, had some sense it was coming, didn't do his best to prevent the damage within Israel because he was in this politically tough spot and the ensuing war would take the attention off him and allow him a pass on the charges.

这公平吗我

Is that a fair I

我个人认为，认为他故意煽动袭击以便进行反击，这种想法未免太过愤世嫉俗了。

personally think it may be a bit too cynical to think that that he literally engendered an attack in order to be able to to counter attack.

但我确实认为，他部分地自我欺骗，因为他把世界看作一系列交易。

But I do think that he had deluded himself in part because he he thought of the world as a series of deals.

他欺骗自己，以为自己操控了哈马斯，以及所有流向哈马斯的资金——是的。

He had deluded himself in into the idea that he had manipulated Hamas, and all the money that was flowing to Hamas Yeah.

你知道，那些钱不会被用来购买武器和准备袭击。

You know, wasn't gonna go to weapons and and preparing an attack.

我的意思是，他老是说那句原话是什么？

I mean, he kept saying what's the phrase?

它出现在这部电影里。

It's in the film.

他说过，他可以通过引入某种方式来控制火焰的高度。

That that he could control the height of the flames by by the introduction of

钱。

money.

或者，他还称

Or and I he also called

他在跟警察谈话时提到了他的祖父。

his grandfather when he's talking to the police.

他说，要亲近朋友，更要亲近敌人，仿佛自己是教父，能够操控局势，但他显然并没有这种能力。

He says, keep your friends close and your enemies closer as if he was the Don and sort of able to manipulate events, but he clearly was not able to.

对我来说，这似乎是一个明智的解读。

That seems like a smart interpretation to me.

当然，我不确定，但听起来很有道理，完全合理。

And, of course, I don't know, but that that sounds plausible, entirely plausible.

然后，10月7日发生了。

So then October 7 happens.

我认为大多数以色列人真的对这件事的发生感到震惊，并且感到恐惧。

I think most Israelis are genuinely shocked that it happened, and they're horrified.

全世界许多人都感到真正震惊和恐惧，包括我。

And a lot of the world is genuinely shocked and horrified, including me.

但随后加沙战争爆发了，或者说是对加沙的全面摧毁、对加沙的大规模屠杀，接着蔓延到黎凡特地区的许多地方，如今甚至进入了伊朗。

But then this war begins in Gaza or this leveling of Gaza, this mass murder in Gaza, and then it expands to a lot of the regions in the Levant and now into Iran.

认为总理的动机之一只是为了继续推进，因为一旦停下，他就会被逮捕——这种想法是不是太愤世嫉俗了？

Is it too cynical to think that one of the motives there from the prime minister is to just keep moving forward because if he stops, he gets arrested?

嗯，这可能有点太愤世嫉俗了。

Well, it may be a little bit too cynical.

我的意思是，也许内塔尼亚胡早就想攻击伊朗了。

I mean I mean, maybe Netanyahu's wanted to attack Iran for years.

毫无疑问。

For sure.

他们还拍过一部关于这个主题的电影，叫《零日》。

They did another film about that subject called Zero Days.

但我确实认为，一旦战争的势头启动，而且我也要说，战争的势头在以色列民众中也产生了一定的共鸣，现在有了一个机会去打击更多的敌人。

So but but I do think that once the momentum of war began and and and I would say also that to some extent, the momentum of war began to have a certain popular impact among the populace in Israel too, that now there was an opportunity to go after more enemies.

而且，只要战争持续，只要战争成为常态，内塔尼亚胡就永远不会被追责。

So and and it had the byproduct, of course, as long as there's war, as long as there's permanent war, Netanyahu will never be held to account.

所以，再次说，认为他攻击伊朗是为了逃避牢狱之灾，或许有点过于愤世嫉俗；但我认为，内塔尼亚胡长期以来一直渴望彻底打击伊朗。

So once again, I think it may be a bit too cynical to say he attacked Iran so he wouldn't go to jail, but I think it had been a long standing desire for Netanyahu to want to really go after Iran.

而在他发动加沙战争之后，再加上我认为2024年特朗普政府上台，他突然获得了这样一个机会。

And now both once he'd started the war in Gaza, but also I think with the Trump administration coming to power in, 2024, suddenly he had an opportunity.

是的。

Yeah.

这听起来确实有道理。

That that sounds right to me.

那么，以色列国内对这位总理的评价如何？

So what how is he regarded, the prime minister in Israel?

如果你不在那里，很难真正了解。

It's it's hard to know if you're not there.

你的看法是什么？

What's your view?

我同意。

I agree.

我认为可以说，有一群人强烈反对内塔尼亚胡，认为他正在摧毁以色列，破坏以色列的民主，甚至让这个国家在全世界成为众矢之的。

I think it's fair to say that there is a robust group of people who are vehemently anti Netanyahu and believe he's destroying Israel and destroying democracy in Israel, and indeed making the country a pariah worldwide.

我同意这个观点。

I would agree with that point of view.

然而，我也想说，战争对人们有着特殊的影响，会激发民族主义情绪，我认为这种情绪正在上升。

However, I would also say that war has a peculiar effect on people and can engender a sense of nationalism, which I believe is rising.

不仅是民族主义，还有以受害感为底色的民族主义。

Not only a sense of nationalism, but the nationalism undergirded by the undertow of of victimhood.

因此，内塔尼亚胡正在充分利用这一点，我认为认为他不得人心是错误的。

So so Netanyahu is is is very much using that, and I think it would be a mistake to think that he's unpopular.

我们很快就会知道，你知道，选举一举行就会见分晓，但只要还在打仗，人们往往会团结在最高统帅周围，我认为这既是内塔尼亚胡的 cynical 策略，也是他长期以来的目标——在黎凡特地区发动战争，扩大以色列的权力和影响力。

We'll find out very soon, you know, when elections happen, but but I think that as long as you're waging war, people tend to rally around the commander in chief, which I think is is both a cynical ploy by Netanyahu and also a long standing goal of his to be able to wage war across The Levant and expand Israel's power and influence.

你有没有感受到他的宗教观点？

Did you get a sense of his of his religious views?

我认为内塔尼亚胡虽然本质上相当美国化、西方化且世俗，但他在战争和伊朗事件发生后的首次声明中，竟以当天的妥拉经文开头，而且他经常说类似的话。

I think if Netanyahu is, well, honestly, he's pretty American and western and secular, but in his I mean, the first statement he gave after War and Iran began, he began with today's Torah portion, and he's been saying things like that a lot.

你对他真正的精神信仰有什么看法吗？

Do do you have an opinion on what he thinks, what his his spiritual views are?

我很难说。

It's hard for me to say.

我的意思是，某种程度上，我觉得他更像一个政客。

I mean, I I I think that to some extent, I see him more as a politician.

是的。

Now Yep.

我无法得知他真实的想法，但当你听到政客引用经文时，通常是为了用上帝的权威来支撑他们的政策。

I don't have access to what his real views are, but when you hear politicians quoting scripture, in effect, it tends to be for the reason that they're trying to undergird their policies with the force of God.

没错。

Right.

这是一种老套路，我认为内塔尼亚胡非常清楚，这种做法非常有效。

That's a it's an old script, and I think Netanyahu knows very well that it's an effective one.

这正是我的直觉。

That would be my my gut.

我真的不知道，也无法了解他独处时的信仰，以及他与上帝的关系。

I really don't know or have any insight into what he believes when he's alone in a room, what his relationship is with God.

是的。

Yeah.

我们确实无从得知。

Well, we can't know.

但似乎这个国家正在迅速变化。

But it does seem like the country is changing fast.

这是我作为访客的感知。

That's my perception as a visitor.

这不是一件好事。

It's not a good thing.

我们也可以看到，这个极右翼派别在约旦河西岸造成了巨大破坏。

And we can also see that this hard right wing faction has wreaked havoc on the West Bank.

定居点正在以一种极其可耻的方式迅速扩张。

And settlements are expanding apace in a really reprehensible way.

有很多事情，你知道的，这些事大多不在公众视野内，但我想这从一开始就是目标之一，无论是应对哈马斯还是其他种种，但同时，内塔尼亚胡为了维持权力，又做了一笔腐败交易，与极右翼达成协议，然后进一步走向极右。

There's lots of, you know, it's sort of out of the public eye, but that I think was the one of the goals from the beginning, you know, with reckoning with Hamas and all of this stuff, but also, you know, because Netanyahu, in order to stay in power, another corrupt deal, he makes a deal with the hard right, and then goes very hard right.

他从来就不是什么和平主义者，但现在他变得极其、极其、极其极右，而代价却是许多巴勒斯坦人的生命与生计。

It's not like he was ever a peacenick, but now he goes very, very, very hard right, and the great expense of the lives and livelihoods of many Palestinians.

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道这是对还是错。

I don't know if it's right or not.

我属于右翼，但我讨厌这种做法。

I'm on the right, and I hate this.

我憎恨暴力，今天早上以色列媒体有报道称，西岸的定居者对巴勒斯坦人实施了大规模性侵。

I hate violence, and there were reports this morning of in the Israeli press of mass rapes of Palestinians by settlers in the West Bank.

所以，我觉得这简直

So, like, I I think that's just

定居者在西岸对巴勒斯坦人施加的暴力程度是极其贪婪的。

The degree of violence by the by by by settlers on Palestinians in the West Bank is is rapacious.

我的意思是，这种暴力日复一日地持续发生。

I mean, it's it's and it it it goes on day after day after day after day.

养牛人用超过二百五十年的时间，历经干旱、战争、经济衰退和大流行病等各种挑战，为我们的国家提供食物，这些困难丝毫没有阻挡他们，因为他们必须坚持下去，而他们确实做到了。

Ranchers built America feeding our country for over two hundred and fifty years through droughts and wars and recessions and pandemics and anything else that happened didn't matter to them because they had to come through, and they did.

这一传承正是我们的合作伙伴Good Ranchers所延续和代表的。

That legacy is the one that our partners at Good Ranchers continue and represent.

Good Ranchers是一家肉类公司。

Good Ranchers is a meat company.

它不仅在口头上，更在实际行动中完全致力于这个国家。

It's a 100% committed to this country, not just in words, but in practice.

他们提供的每一种肉品都来自美国的农场和牧场。

Every cut they offer is raised on United States farms and ranches.

他们的整个包装和配送运营都位于美国境内。

Their entire packaging and fulfillment operations are right here in The US.

客户服务也是如此。

Same with customer support.

想象一下，电话另一端是美国人。

Imagine Americans on the other end of the line.

此外，Ranchers 将部分利润捐赠给退伍军人组织。

Plus, Ranchers donates a portion of all profits go to veteran organizations.

我们自己也使用 Good Ranchers 的产品。

We use Good Ranchers ourselves.

我们非常喜欢。

We love it.

订阅体验非常简单。

The subscriber experience is super easy.

下单只需点击几下。

Order requires just a few clicks.

简单、灵活，完全根据您的时间安排设计。

Simple, flexible, and built around your schedule.

因此，你可以支持一家销售卓越产品、致敬美国过去、现在和未来军人的公司。

So you can support a company that sells an amazing product that honors Americans past, present, and future.

立即访问 goodranchers.com。

Visit goodranchers.com today.

当你开通订阅计划时，你可以选择一种免费肉类，终身包含在每笔订单中，或者使用代码 TUCKER 可享受首单 25 美元折扣。

When you start your plan, you'll get to pick a free meat that'll be included in every order for life, or you get $25 off your first order by using the code TUCKER.

TUCKER 是享受 25 美元折扣的代码。

TUCKER is the code for $25 off.

goodranchers.com。

Goodranchers.com.

美国肉类，直接送达。

American meat delivered.

既然你是这部影片的制片人，我可以问问你的经历吗？

So since you're the producer of this film, do you mind if I ask you about your your experience?

你手中拥有一千小时未公开的录像带。

So you you come into possession of a thousand hours of tape, which is not public.

你没有具体说明你是怎么得到它的，这可以理解，但它是真实的。

You're not saying understandably exactly how you got it, but it's real.

我的意思是，可能很多人不希望你把这段内容拍成纪录片并公之于众。

I mean, probably a lot of people don't want you to make that into a documentary and air it.

那你当时的经历是怎样的？

So what was your experience of that?

这么说很公允。

That's fair to say.

事实上，当我们试图秘密制作这部影片时，

And indeed, when, you know, we we tried to produce the film in secret.

我有一些得力的帮手。

I I had some able helpers.

不仅亚历克西斯·布鲁姆是一位才华横溢的女导演，我们在以色列还得到了一位名叫拉维夫·德鲁克的记者的帮助，他是以色列知名的记者，帮助我们更好地理解了这些内容。

I mean, not only was Alexis Bloom, an extraordinary talented woman directing it, but in Israel, we were aided by a guy named Raviv Drucker, who is a noted journalist in Israel and helped us to contextualize some of this stuff.

但在制作过程中，我们一直觉得必须保密，直到2024年在多伦多电影节上才正式推出。

But we had a sense that we had to keep it secret while we were making it, and then we sort of launched an event in at the Toronto Film Festival in in 2024.

那是一部正在进行的作品，因为我们觉得当时这种事有必要被看到。

It was a work in progress because we felt at that moment this kind of thing needed to be seen.

现在，内塔尼亚胡本人曾前往以色列法院，试图阻止这部电影在多伦多首映。

Now Netanyahu himself went to court in Israel to try to stop the premier of the film at at Toronto.

但他完全失败了。

He was utterly unsuccessful.

但我还应该指出，美国媒体在这件事中扮演了不太得体的角色：我们最初去找了NBC，打算在多伦多首映前做一个相当大的专题报道，但最后时刻却被告知，NBC决定不播这个故事，因为这可能会惹怒内塔尼亚胡，从而影响我们接触总理的机会。

But I should note also that the American media played a kind of unseemly role in the sense that we were we we went to NBC first, and we're gonna do a a rather big piece in advance of the the premier in Toronto, and then we were told at the last minute that, oh, NBC has decided that we're not gonna do the story because it would probably upset Netanyahu, and that would limit our access to the prime minister.

他们答应了，

They said Yes,

他们对我这么说的。

they said that to me.

没错。

That's correct.

为什么？

Why?

这在我看来并不是一个新闻机构应有的勇敢举动。

Not what I would regard as a deeply courageous move by by a journalistic organization.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，用‘新闻性’这个词可能太重了。

I mean, I think journalistic is probably too strong.

但天啊，我曾经在那家公司工作过。

But wow, I'm just I mean, I've worked at that company.

我只是惊讶他们对你竟然这么直白。

I'm just surprised that they were as blunt as they were to you.

你当时怎么说的？

What did you say?

我只是很震惊。

I was just shocked.

我的意思是，我当时已经准备好接受采访了。

I mean, because I was ready to was ready to do an interview.

我相信是安德里亚·米切尔。

I believe it was Andrea Mitchell.

你知道，我感到很震惊。

You know, I was shocked.

而这场反思的一部分在于，这种行为既懦弱又违背了新闻准则，同时也带有某种腐败性质——他们暗示，如果这些警察审讯录像由他们自己发现，他们可能会选择报道，但他们不愿为了与内塔尼亚胡相关、而自己并未发现的事情而冒险投入资本。

And, you know, part of the reckoning was it was both both craven and bad journalistically, but also sort of corrupt in the sense that they they suggested that they might have gone with it if they themselves had discovered the the police interrogation videos, but they weren't gonna risk their capital with Netanyahu for something that they themselves didn't discover.

公共利益或公众问责的概念似乎根本不在他们的考量之中。

The idea of the public good or the public reckoning didn't didn't seem to be part of the equation.

这是一个令人非常失望的时刻。

It was a very disappointing moment.

这大概并不令人意外。

Probably not that surprising.

我的意思是，总体而言，美国对那里发生的事情的报道要么根本不存在，要么与现实不符。

I mean, in general, the coverage of what happens there is, well, nonexistent or not consistent with reality in The United States.

但在拿到这些录音带后，你有没有犹豫过是否要继续推进这件事？

But did you pause at all before embarking on this once you got the tapes?

你有没有想过，从长远来看，我参与这样的事情可能不是一个好主意？

Did you think maybe it's not a good idea long term for me to get involved in something like this?

没有。

No.

我觉得这真的很重要，因为那些录像带，一旦我能够核实并更好地理解它们，我就觉得它们揭示了世界政治中一位关键人物的重要真相，那就是亚洪。

I felt it was really important because it it those tapes, once I was able to verify them and to to and to understand them better, I I felt they shed a really important light on a vital figure in world politics, and that's in Yahoo.

所以在我看来，这就是我的职责。

And so it it seemed to me that that's that's my job.

当我发现有关公众人物的重要信息，这些信息能揭示战争以及我们如何理解世界时，我就有责任把这样的故事公之于众。

And when I find out important information about public figures that shed light on on on on wars and and how we reckon with the world, that that it's it's my job to to get that story out.

所以我实际上并没有犹豫，但花了一些时间才理清头绪，因为我不是一家电视台，你知道的，我是个独立电影人，所以花了很长时间才弄清楚如何筹钱，如何秘密进行，以免有人传唤这些录像带，或者阻止我完成这件事。

So I actually didn't pause, but it took a while to figure out because I'm not a network, you know, I'm an independent filmmaker, and it took a while to figure out how to raise the money, how to and also to do it in secret so that nobody would subpoena the tapes or, you know, prevent me from from getting to the end.

所以，你知道，我和亚历克西斯不得不在一段时间内秘密行事。

So, you know, we we Alexis and I had to proceed, you know, for some time in in in secret.

但我知道，这些材料非常重要，必须公之于众。

But, know, it was I I I felt it was really important material and really important to get it out.

你真棒。

Good for you.

筹钱有多难？

How hard was it to raise the money?

这很难，但并没有像看起来那样不可能。

It was hard, but but not as it as it turns out impossible.

而且，有几个人在看到我们的一些成果后，也主动前来帮忙。

So and there were a number of people who also, once they were able to to see a little bit of of what we had, came forward and and helped.

所以，是的，我们最终做到了。

So so, yeah, we were able to do it.

我的意思是，这确实是在挖掘不同的信息来源。

I mean, was but it was was mining a different source.

这不是传统的方式，你不会去对你的部门主管说：请给我公司资源，我们去报道这个故事。

It wasn't the traditional way where you go to your bureau chief and you say, please give me the resources of the corporation and let's go get this story.

不，确实不是。

No, definitely isn't.

从一开始，我们就只推广那些价值观相似的企业，那些生产我们真正使用的产品或提供服务、看起来是正直好人、并不讨厌我们或你的公司。

So we've tried from the beginning just to advertise businesses that have like minded values, businesses that make things or provide services that we actually use that seem like decent people that don't hate us or you.

这正是我们与Charity Mobile合作的原因之一。

That's one of the reasons that we have aligned with Charity Mobile.

当你更换服务商时，Charity Mobile会将你每月套餐费用的5%捐赠给你选择的亲生命、亲家庭慈善机构。

So when you make the switch, Charity Mobile sends 5% of your monthly plan price to the Pro Life Pro Family charity of your choice.

截至目前，他们已向亲家庭慈善事业捐赠了数百万美元，而且还在持续增加。

That's millions of dollars and counting sent to pro family philanthropies.

这听起来很棒，但Charity Mobile为了做这些，价格一定贵得离谱吧。

So that sounds great, but Charity Mobile must be really expensive to be doing that.

不，其实并不贵。

Well, no, they're not.

他们从未提高过移动套餐的价格，而且没有任何套餐月费超过50美元。

They've literally never raised their mobile plan prices and no plan exceeds $50 a month.

所以这是一家服务好、价格合理的好公司。

So it's a good company with good service and it's got good prices.

如果你今天更换，你可以保留你的号码，使用兼容的手机，品质不受影响，同时支持一家真正做善事的公司。

If you switch today, you keep your number with a compatible phone, no compromise on quality, and you support a company that's actually doing good things.

使用促销码 TUCKER，即可免费获得一部手机，享受免费激活、免费配送，每开通一条新服务还赠送一份礼品。

Use promo code TUCKER to get a free phone with free activation, free shipping, a free gift with every new line of service.

访问 charitymobile.com/tucker。

Visit charitymobile.com/tucker.

你预计未来会有什么后果吗？

Do you expect any consequences going forward?

我的意思是，你 presumably 希望拍摄其他电影吧。

I mean, presumably you hope to make other films.

这会让事情变得更困难吗？

Will this make it harder?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我认为，我们正处在一个时代，全球各地的人们，包括我们这个国家，都在让独立声音难以被听见。

I think that we live in a moment where people all over the world, including in this country, are making it difficult for independent voices to be heard.

所以，我对这一点有所考虑。

So, I reckon with that.

但我感觉，尽管如此，我很高兴TCN在它的网络上播放BB的文件，并且已经取得了相当不错的国际发行。

But I feel like even though, and I'm glad you, you know, TCN is showing BB files on its network, and it has had, you know, pretty good international distribution.

但这里的发行情况却受到了一些阻碍。

The the the distribution here has been somewhat handicapped.

但能否

But can

你能跟我们说说吗？

can you tell us about that?

我的意思是，即使我不同意你的观点——其实我也不知道我是否不同意，但我认为，你所掌握的关于全球政治关键人物的真实信息本身就很有价值。

What I mean, it seems like even if I disagreed with your views, which don't know that I do, I don't think I do, but I I would just stop at you have relevant information that's real about one of the key players in global politics.

所以，仅凭这一点，我认为就足以证明其价值。

So, like, that alone justifies this, in my opinion.

因此，你在美國遇到发行困难这件事令人担忧，我很想了解更多关于这些困难的具体情况。

And so the idea that you would have distribution problems in The United States is a little scary, and I'd love to know more about what those problems are.

我认为其中一个问题是，整个市场普遍回避争议。

I think one of the problems is that the market in general is controversy averse.

你知道，有很多流媒体平台不想惹恼他们的观众。

You know, you have a number of streamers who don't want to upset their their viewers.

还有新闻机构，在这种情况下，正如我所记录的，也不愿意站在可能惹恼公众的立场上。

You have news organizations, which in this case, as I've as I've documented, you know, also didn't wanna be on on the wrong side of an issue that might upset people.

我的意思是，我觉得四年前，大致来说，如果我带着BB文件进入市场，肯定会引发竞购大战。

I mean, it seems to me that the job, you know, because I because I do think that four years ago, roughly speaking, you know, if I had gone out into the market place with the BB files, there would have been a bidding war.

但现在情况恰恰相反。

But now it's kind of just the opposite.

就像大家都不想做任何可能惹恼人的事，因为那样人们就不会买运动鞋或iPad了。

It's like, we don't wanna do anything that might upset people because then they won't buy sneakers or they won't buy iPads.

你知道吧？

You know?

所以这是其中一部分原因，我认为另一部分是，争议现在变得既棘手又危险，而且一些有影响力的政治人物正在施压广播媒体，要求它们保持一致；如果你不这么做，比如你没有固定节目，就根本得不到发声的机会。

So that's part of it, and I and I think part of it is that controversy has become problematic and also powerful political figures are exerting influence on broadcasting outlets to toe the line, and sometimes if you're not, you know, you don't have a regular show, you don't get a hearing.

所以这是个问题。

So it's a problem.

这是一个非常严重的问题。

It's a really big problem.

我认为，尽管我对主流媒体持批评态度，尤其是在这个案例中，但我坚定地支持新闻自由的理念。

I think the you know, while I'm I'm I'm critical of the mainstream press, particularly in this in this instance, you know, I believe strongly in the idea of a free press.

是的。

Yes.

我不仅对内塔尼亚胡在以色列的做法感到愤怒，也对特朗普政府试图压制本国新闻自由的行为深感不安。

And and and I'm deeply upset about the way not only Netanyahu did it in Israel, but the way the Trump administration is trying to suppress a free press in his country.

这是一个黑暗的时刻。

It's a dark time for this.

你做这种事有多久了？

Long have you been doing this kind of thing?

这是个好问题。

Well, that's a good question.

你知道，我想我一直在做这个。

You know, I guess I've been doing it.

我从上世纪80年代起就一直是个独立记者、自由职业者。

I've been an independent, a freelance since, jeez, since the 1980s.

所以不知怎么的，我一直设法勉强维持生计。

So somehow, someway, I've been, you know, managing to scrape by.

我从未真正为任何机构工作过，除了我自己的小公司——Jigsaw Productions，那就是我的公司。

I've and I've never really worked for an organization except for the small company that is Jigsaw Productions, which is my company.

你有没有见过比现在更艰难的环境，尤其是对于想要呈现像这部纪录片中录音这样本身就具有新闻价值内容的人？

Have you ever seen an environment this difficult for someone who wants to present newsworthy, inherently newsworthy material like the tapes in this documentary?

真的没有。

Not really.

上世纪90年代末，这个国家曾有过另一个时期。

There was another period in the late nineties in this country.

我记得当时想拍一部批评亨利·基辛格的电影，当时BBC在这件事上表现得非常英勇，但我在国内根本找不到任何支持者，最后只能通过在电影论坛放映了大约三个月，才终于让电视台觉得这属于娱乐内容，从而愿意播出。

I remember trying to do a film about it was critical of Henry Kissinger, and I had a I had an easy the BBC was was actually heroic in that instance, but I could find no finders here, and it was only by going to, I think we played at the Film Forum for something like three months, that finally it allowed, because it was then entertainment, it allowed a broadcaster to show it.

那时很难，但现在更加艰难了。

It was difficult then, but it's much more fraught now.

我认为要让独立声音被听到，真的非常、非常、非常困难。

I think it's very, very, very hard to get independent voices heard.

以我的经验来看，这个时代真是前所未有的。

It's really unprecedented in my experience, this moment.

是的，谢谢您。

Yeah, well, thank you.

这确实也是我的感受，但我没有您那样的四十年视角。

That's certainly my feeling, but I don't have the 40 perspective that you do so.

但我钦佩您对新闻自由的坚持，钦佩您为此所展现的勇气，以及您愿意向我们和TCN的埃里克解释这一切。

But I admire your dedication to a free press, your bravery in doing this, and your willingness to explain it to us and to Eric on TCN.

非常感谢您，吉布尼。

So thank you very much, Gibney.

谢谢你，塔克。

Thank you, Tucker.