20倍增长：揭秘Lovable 4亿美元年经常性收入的增长引擎 | Lovable如何进行产品发布 | Lovable如何通过社交手段让帖子病毒式传播 | Lovable如何让每位员工都成为品牌代言人 —— 与Elena Verna对话

现在可能确实有效。

It might be working out now.

首先，即使你要做付费推广，也要确保付费回报周期非常短。

So first of all, even if you're gonna do paid, at least make sure that the paid payback cycle is really quick.

我看到的关于付费推广最大的问题是，人们只把它看作CAC与LTV的比率。

Like the biggest issue that I see with Paid is people look at it as just the CAC to LTV.

没有一家小公司真正了解自己的LTV。

None of the small companies know their LTV.

所以你实际上只是在看CAC，然后勉强猜测它最终会是多少。

So you're literally just looking at CAC and kind of trying to guess of what it's actually going to be.

想想你什么时候能收回投资。

Think about actually when you recoup your investment.

你把100美元投入系统后，多久能收回？

How fast will you put $100 into your system?

你能从系统中把这100美元赚回来吗？

Can you recuperate that $100 out of the system back?

如果能在三个月内回本，那就不错了，甚至更好一点，把钱投入系统，让它快速为你再生收益。

If it's under three months, fine, maybe it's a little bit better, put it into the system, have it regenerate for you really quickly.

这是一个自我循环的系统，能持续为你创造回报并自我偿还。

So it's a self contained system that keeps on giving to you and paying for itself.

但一旦回本周期接近八个月、九个月，甚至一年，那就变成了一个资金黑洞，你需要不断往系统里投入更多资金。

But anytime that goes in anywhere close to eight, nine months, even a year, it's a sink of money at that point that you need to constantly put back into the system more and more.

你必须不断融资才能维持下去。

You're gonna constantly have to raise to do it.

问题是，如果谷歌没有达到盈利目标，他们会怎么做？

And the problem is that if Google doesn't hit their earnings, what are they gonna do?

嘿，我们去提高AdWords的广告点击成本，涨20%，这样就能达成盈利目标了。

Hey, let's go to AdWords and jack up all of the CACs by 20% so we can hit our earnings.

而这一切的成本都会从你的预算中扣除，只为让他们达成华尔街的业绩指标。

And that's coming out of your budget so they can hit their Wall Street numbers.

所以你必须格外谨慎，因为你完全受制于其他超级巨头对市场业绩的需求，而你却在为此买单。

So you have to be really careful because you're literally at mercy of other super giants needing to hit business performance on the market and you are paying for it.

所以，如果你想要这样实现增长，那就这样吧。

So if that's how you wanna do your growth, fine.

如果这种方式能在非常短、快速的回报周期内奏效的话。

If that's working at least on a really fast, quick, quick payback period.

但除此之外，我只是觉得这种方式并不是可持续的增长方式。

But other than that, I just feel like that is not a sustainable way to grow.

所以你同意，对于当今大多数初创公司来说，CAC与LTV的比例其实是一个无关紧要的指标吗？

So you agree that CAC to LTV for the majority of new ish companies today is respectfully irrelevant metric?

这完全无关紧要。

It's absolutely irrelevant.

你根本不知道你的LTV。

You don't know your LTV.

除非你在这个行业已经做了五年以上，否则你根本不知道你的LTV。

Unless you've been in the business for five years plus, you do not know your LTV.

那么对你来说，哪些数据才是重要的？

So what numbers matter to you?

如果我们去获取一个客户，你会想，这好吗？

If we go you you acquire a customer, you're like, is that good?

因为我们根本不知道他们未来会花多少钱。

Because we've got no idea how much they're gonna pay over time.

你看Lovable，坦白说，你可以花很多钱，也可以花很少钱。

You look at Lovable, you know, and bluntly, you can spend a lot or you can spend little.

这种方式不错，但你不知道他们会花多少。

It's nice in that way, but you don't know how much they're going to spend.

你怎么确定哪些数字才是重要的？

How do you determine what numbers matter?

如果我做付费营销，我只看回本周期。

So if I'm doing a paid marketing, the payback period is the only thing I look at.

我平均多久能从任何一个活动里收回成本？

How quickly do I recuperate my money on average from any given campaign?

我会尽量从最后点击的归因角度来分析，特别是如果是效果营销，这些数字之间要有非常紧密的关联。

And I try to really try to do at least the last click attribution perspective, especially if it's performance marketing, a pretty tight tie in between those numbers.

如果你的转化窗口很长，不是每个人都在24小时内转化，比如说。

If your conversion windows are really long, so not everybody converts within twenty four hours, let's say.

如果需要六个月甚至一年才能转化，那么投资付费营销就非常危险，因为你根本不知道能否收回成本。

And if it takes you six months, a year to convert, again, very dangerous to invest into paid marketing because then you don't even know if you're gonna recoup that money.

所以，除非你的转化窗口在三个月以内，否则我建议不要把付费营销作为你的增长手段，因为你无法让这个模式快速运转起来，因为你的转化窗口太长了。

So unless your conversion window is under three months, I would say don't start with paid marketing as your growth lever, because you will never be able to make it spin fast enough because you have such a long conversion windows.

如果你的转化窗口较短，我认为也很重要去观察转化前的各种信号。

If you have shorter conversion windows, I think it's very important to also look at any of the signals beforehand.

用户是如何激活的？

How people are activating?

有多少激活用户最终转化为付费用户？

How many of activated people are actually converting to paid?

因为有很多可以预测转化甚至预测留存的指标，并不基于货币化。

Because there's gonna be many KPIs that you can look into predict conversion or even predict retention that are not monetization based.

因此，真正理解用户行为和用户群体，成为你判断是否要进入这个领域的首要关注点。

So really understanding that behavior and your user base becomes the number one concern for you to be able to even know, do I go into this or do I not?

再说一遍，对我而言，付费营销实际上是最昂贵的出路，完全不具备竞争壁垒，也不可持续。

And again, paid marketing to me is actually the most expensive way out and it's not competitively defensible at all and it's not sustainable.

你是在花钱让别人为你创造需求。

You're paying somebody else to generate demand for you.

如果你还没找到属于自己的独特方式——一种不依赖其他平台、具备竞争壁垒且可持续的方式来创造需求，那么我认为你只是在为市场的崩塌争取时间。

If you haven't figured it out your unique way, your competitively defensible and sustainable way to generate demand without relying on other platform, then I think that you are just buying time in the market before the collapse is imminent.

对你来说，什么是活跃用户？

What does an activated user mean for you?

是指那些访问后完成转化的人。

It's someone who lands and converts.

是指那些访问后完成转化并付费的人。

It's someone who lands and converts and pays.

真正的激活是什么？

What is true activation?

我生活在一个并非所有使用你产品的人都是付费客户的世界里。

So I live in a world where not everybody who uses your product is a paid customer.

所以我也生活在一个世界里，每个客户除了直接向你付费之外，还带来其他价值。

So I also live in a world where every single customer has other value besides just paying to you directly.

例如，在Lovable，我们有大量的免费用户。

So for example, at Lovable, we have a ton of free users.

我们的许多成本都来自免费增值模式，而不是付费营销、员工或市场营销和销售预算。

A lot of our costs are within our freemium, not with our paid marketing, not with employees, not with marketing or sales budgets.

这是因为我们将免费增值模式视为一种营销渠道。

It's with freemium because we view freemium as actually marketing channel.

我的意思是，当免费用户使用产品并因免费获得的成果而感到惊喜时，他们会主动为我们做推广。

What I mean by that is that a free user, when they come in and they get delighted by what they accomplish for free, they go and do marketing on our behalf.

他们在社交媒体上分享。

They go talk across socials.

他们向朋友推荐我们。

They go refer to our friends.

我们非常细致地进行衡量。

We very carefully measure.

我们有一个叫做Lovable分数的指标，用来衡量人们主动向他人推荐我们的频率。

We have such thing as called Lovable score, where we measure how often people actually refer us to somebody else.

我们对此密切关注，因为这是一个无法购买、无法竞争且由我们掌控的自然渠道。

And we keep a really close eye on it because that is an earned channel that you cannot buy, that you cannot compete with and that we own.

因此，免费用户对我们来说是有价值的。

So free user holds value to us.

即使我们通过付费营销渠道获取用户，比如免费用户，他们对我们依然有价值。

So even if we acquire through paid marketing channels, let's say free users, they hold value to us.

这并不仅仅关乎转化。

It's not all about conversion.

但回到你的激活问题，对我来说，这纯粹是基于参与度的。

But back to your activation question, to me is purely engagement based.

这与盈利完全无关。

That has nothing to do with monetization whatsoever.

那么，你的产品关键时刻是什么？

So what is it that your moment is with the product?

要达到那个时刻，你需要经历哪些步骤？

What is it steps for you to set up to get to that moment?

你最初会形成哪些习惯循环，从而持续使用产品？

What are the first habit loops that you're gonna start falling into to start using product on ongoing basis?

所以这纯粹是基于产品参与度的。

So it's purely product engagement based.

这对变现和长期留存都是一个极强的信号。

That is an incredible signal for both monetization and long term retention.

恕我直言，你希望有出色的产品参与度吗？

With respect, do you want great product engagement?

我的意思是，如果你追求简洁，那未必需要深度的产品参与。

And what I mean by that is if you want simplicity, it wouldn't necessarily be depth of product engagement.

给我做个网站，像BBC新闻那样，但只针对风投和融资轮次。

Hey, make me a website that's like BBC News, but make it just for VCs and for funding rounds.

这算不上深度参与，但用户可能很满意。

That's not very deep engagement, but it could be a happy user.

你如何看待产品参与度的需求与真正对用户最有利的东西之间的关系？

How do you think about that product engagement need versus actually just what's best for the user?

我认为需要从多个维度来考虑。

So I think about it on multiple vectors.

有一个维度是参与的深度。

There's intensity of engagement.

我会深入到什么程度？

So how deep do I go?

我会花多少时间？

How much time do I spend?

我试图完成的任务有多复杂？

How complicated of the task that I'm trying to accomplish?

这是一组关于深度的维度。

That's one vector intensity.

你说得对，对于社交平台来说，深度参与非常关键，因为你在平台上越投入，你就越是一个优质用户。

And you're right, intensity is very powerful for social platforms because the more intense you are on them, the better user you are for them.

对于简单的生产力工具来说，使用强度几乎是一个反指标，因为高强度意味着我卡住了、做了太多本该轻松完成的事情。

For simple productivity tools, intensity is almost an anti metric because intensity means like I'm getting stuck, I'm doing too much where this actually supposed to be easy.

强度通常是反指标。

Intensity is often the anti metric.

然而，还有使用频率。

However, there's also frequency.

所以我多久回来使用一次？

So how often do I come back and do it?

频率是一个关键因素。

Frequency is a big one.

我们的大脑总是希望处于一种习惯性状态。

You always wanna be in a habitual zone for our minds.

对我们大脑来说，习惯性状态通常是每天或每周一次。

Habitual zone for our minds is somewhere on daily or weekly basis.

一旦你变成每月才使用一次，你就进入了容易被遗忘的区域。

Anytime you move into being monthly, you're in the forgettable zone.

我不记得上个月做了什么。

I don't remember what I did last month.

就像世界变得太快了。

Like the world is moving too quickly.

我甚至不记得上个月有没有看过某些软件，或者有没有试过它。

I don't even remember if I looked at like some software last month, or even if I tried it last month.

所以保持每天或每周的惯性状态非常重要。

So trying to be in that daily or weekly habitual zone is super important.

此外，你还要看看哪些行动是有意义的。

And then on top of it, you look at just what actions are meaningful.

最糟糕的情况是，你把登录次数当作参与频率的指标，这是一种虚荣指标，每个人都能登录，但这并不意味着他们获得了价值。

The worst thing is when you create frequency of engagement based on logins, that's a vanity metric, everybody can log in, that doesn't mean they get value.

因此，应该将参与频率建立在更有意义的行为上，比如对我们来说，要么是在 Lovable 中构建一个应用（系统会提示你做出一些更改），要么是你的应用获得流量。

So setting up that frequency engagement on something a little bit more meaningful, like for us, for example, it's both either building an app in Lovable, so you're prompting to make some changes or receiving traffic on the app that you already published.

所以你处于参与的两个方面：要么仍在编辑，要么正在享受你已发布内容带来的回报，这两种情况都被视为参与信号。

So you're on both sides of the engagement coin of either still editing or now reaping the benefits of what you've already published that are both counted as an engagement signal.

然后我们统计其使用频率，看看有多少人每天活跃，我们称之为活跃构建者。

And then we count frequency of it to see how many of them are active on daily basis, which we call active builders.

你说得对，对我们来说，使用强度常常是一个虚假指标。

So you're right, intensity is an anti metric often for us.

所以你要选择一个能提供价值的动作，它可以相对轻量，但不能像登录或只是访问那样轻，因为那毫无意义。

So you pick just an action that provides value, but it can be fairly light, but not as light as login or just like a visit because that is just like nonsensical in terms of doesn't mean anything.

大多数网站是不是只需要非常有限的互动呢？

Do the majority of sites not require very limited interaction?

当你考虑习惯性使用时，比如我作为一个风险投资基金，我们用 Lovable 做 Project Europe。

When you think about habitual usage, like, I'm a venture fund creating one you know, we use Lovable for Project Europe.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我们有一个很棒的网站，但基本上从不修改它。

We have a beautiful site, but, like, we don't change it.

这是一件好事还是坏事？

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

这还不错。

It's an okay thing.

如果它在线运行、正常运作并有流量，你就能从中获得价值。

If you've if it's live and it's functioning and it's getting traffic, you're getting value out of it.

这对我们来说很棒。

That's great for us.

所以我们把它算作参与度。

So we count it as engagement.

有些人只是还在开发他们的应用。

Some people are just gonna have apps they're still building.

有些人则只是处于使用状态。

Some of them are just in the consumption state.

两者都很好。

Both are good.

对我们来说，两者之间的价值没有偏好。

There's no preference for us of one versus the other value whatsoever.

如果有任何情况，只需衡量并观察比例，以确保有足够的应用程序正在获得流量并以此方式产生价值。

If anything, just measure and watch for proportions just to make sure that there is a good enough amount of apps that are getting traffic and receiving value that way.

所以我们不仅关注构建，也关注构建完成后的价值捕获。

So we're not just about building, we're also about value capture after the build is complete.

在这个新的PLG AI专业消费者工具时代，你在付费转化方面学到的最大经验是什么？

What are your biggest lessons on conversion to paid in this new world of PLG AI prosumer tools?

我最大的经验有几点。

My biggest lessons are a couple of fold.

第一点，绝对不要——我是说绝对不要把订阅作为唯一的盈利方式。

Lesson number one, do not, and I mean, do not lock people in subscription as the only way to monetize you.

我知道我们都喜欢我们的年度经常性收入，我们的估值也由年度经常性收入决定。

I know that we all love our annual recurring revenue and our multiples are decided by annual recurring revenue.

但如果你的产品像那种突发性使用模式，不是特别稳定，当创意或项目来临时，我会投入大量时间使用它。

But if your product is anything like a bursty usage, where it's not super consistent, when creativity strikes or project strikes, I need to go and I do a lot of work in it.

然后我可能会经历一些空闲期或使用频率很低的阶段。

And then I might have some periods of more of a downtime or much lighter usage.

在收费模式中允许临时购买的灵活性，可以极大地提升你整体的变现潜力。

Allowing flexibility in your monetization model for ad hoc purchases can mean the world of incrementality for your overall monetization capture potential.

我们刚刚在 Lovable 推出了充值功能，效果简直惊人，因为在我整个职业生涯的每一份工作中，我总是会考虑在订阅之外增加临时购买选项。

We just introduced top ups at Lovable, and it's been absolutely wild because in every other job I've ever held in my entire life, I've always thought about something like an ad hoc purchase on top of the subscription.

但我一直压制或不敢推进这个想法，担心会影响珍贵的年经常性收入（ARR）。

I've always shut down or I was too nervous to even move it forward because of the scares of affecting that treasured ARR.

这其实并不对。

That's not true.

这完全是一种谬误。

It's like a complete fallacy.

你应该两者并行，它们会叠加增长，你的 ARR 会持续上升，用户留存也会改善。

You should do both, and it adds on incrementally and your ARR only continues growing and your retention improves.

这是我最重要的一个经验，尤其是在 AI 领域，因为用户仍在探索阶段，大多数产品的使用频率并不稳定。

So that is one big learning for me, especially with AI where people are still exploring and the usage is not super consistent for most of the products.

其次，我认为当前的收费模式并不适用于每一个 AI 公司。

And then I would say that the second one is that your monetization model right now is not the correct one for every single AI company out there.

我们根本还没有找到最佳的AI变现方式，因为我们只是把高昂的LLM成本直接转嫁给了用户。

We just fundamentally have not found how to best monetize AI because we're all just passing through highly expensive LLM costs to our users.

但当LLM成本最终会崩溃时——而所有LLM公司都在押注这一点——我们的变现模式也必须随之进化。

But when LLM costs will collapse and they will collapse eventually, every LLM themselves are betting on it, our monetization models will have to evolve.

谁先将变现模式转向以成果为导向，谁就将成为市场的赢家。

And whoever evolves their monetization model to be more outcome based first is gonna be the winner on the market.

因此，你最好提前建立正确的基础设施和团队，以便能够快速调整和测试你的变现模式，而不是让它多年不变，因为大多数企业都认为变现模式是个禁忌话题，觉得调整起来太复杂。

So you better set up the right infrastructure and the right team around it to be able to change your monetization model and test it really rapidly as opposed to leaving it as something that is not touched for years and years, because most of the businesses, it is something that is a taboo subject that cannot be adjusted because it feels so complicated.

如今许多初创公司都像AWS和谷歌云多年前那样，通过补贴LLM成本来支持用户，Anthropic和OpenAI现在也对这一代初创公司采取了类似做法。

A lot of startups today have subsidized LLM costs very much like AWS did and Google Cloud did with credits for years, and Anthropic and OpenAI have done now very much with this generation of start ups.

他们应该把这些补贴计入成本，还是应该因为这段免费期而人为地夸大自己的利润率？

Should they account for them in costs or should they let themselves be artificially impressed by their margins despite this clear steroid injection of free for this time period?

我认为，为什么OpenAI会以低于成本的价格出售LLM呢？

Well, I think, like, why would OpenAI sell the LLM under cost?

是的。

Yes.

这无疑是抢占市场。

It's like market grab for sure.

但我坚信，他们认为LLM的成本必须下降到无需提价的程度，而是通过提升利润率，让这些价格对他们来说变得合理，甚至可能进一步降低。

But I fundamentally believe that they think that LLMs costs are gonna have to come down to the point that they're not gonna have to raise the prices, but they're gonna start getting the margins to actually make those prices make sense for them and potentially lower it even further.

因为LLM很快就会变成一种标准化的功能。

Because LLM is gonna be like a commoditized feature very soon.

现在感觉还不到这一步，但未来它会像接入互联网或接入云服务一样。

And it doesn't feel so right now, but it will be like access to internet or access to the cloud.

它已经标准化了。

It's commoditized.

它很便宜。

It's cheap.

所以我相信，他们也认为，一旦我们在LLM的构建方式上实现效率提升，成本就会大幅下降。

So I believe that there also believe that it's gonna come down quite a bit once we get efficiency gains out of how LLMs are constructed.

而当它完全标准化后，你就无法再从中获利了。

And this is where when it becomes completely commoditized, you cannot monetize on it anymore.

你必须开始转向以成果为导向的盈利模式。

You have to start moving towards monetization of outcomes.

同样，谁先进化自己的盈利模式，谁就会获胜。

And again, whoever evolves their monetization models first there will win.

说到模型的同质化，你如何看待在看似非常短暂、交易化的世界中建立用户粘性？尤其是当你看到许多开发者从 Cursor 转向 Claw Code 时？

Speaking of kind of commoditization of models there, how do you think about creating stickiness in what is seemingly a very transient transactional world, especially when you look at like the switch from cursor to claw code for a lot of developers?

对许多人来说，这几乎是一夜之间发生的事。

It's almost been overnight for a lot of them.

你如何看待在短暂且交易化的产环境中建立用户粘性？

How do you think about creating stickiness in a transient transactional product environment?

我认为这正是品牌和信任发挥作用的地方。

I think this is where brand comes in, that trust comes in.

你必须让人们相信你和你的团队，因为否则，正如我所说，所有的 SaaS 功能都在被同质化和普及化。

You have to rely on people believing in you and your team because otherwise, like I said, all of the SaaS functionality is getting commoditized and democratized.

现在任何人都能做任何事了。

It's just like anybody can do everything now.

你觉得这有点玄乎吗，埃琳娜？说实话。

Do you know what think that's a bit wooey, Elena, honestly?

听我说，我真的很害怕自己正在变成一个品牌营销人员，因为现在品牌变得太重要了。

Listen, I'm terrified of the fact that I'm becoming a brand marketer because I'm just like because like it's becoming so much more because of brand.

人们会因为品牌的承诺、品牌的关系而追随它，因为功能 everywhere 都能获得。

People will follow the brand because of its promise, because of its relation, because functionality is gonna be available everywhere.

所以我不知道还有什么能让你与众不同，除了创造一种极致愉悦的体验，关注产品中每一个最微小的摩擦点，保持快速创新，因为你仍然不能落后，但至少要站在前沿，即使你不是领导者——但你与客户建立的关系才是最重要的。

So I I don't know what else can differentiate you besides creating an absolutely delightful experience, stressing about the most littlest pieces of friction in your product, being really fast in innovation because you still cannot fall behind, but at least being like on the forefront, even if you're not the leader, But it's that relationship that you develop with your customer is everything.

你有多讨人喜欢？

How lovable are you?

因为如果你不够讨人喜欢，我认为那些只专注于产品纯功能性的公司，前景就岌岌可危了。

Because if you're not lovable, I think the end is near for a lot of companies that are only purely focused only on just pure functional ability of the products.

埃琳娜，如果你有无限的预算，你会怎么做不一样？

If I gave you an unlimited budget, Elena, what would you do differently?

你会不会，比如说，赞助皇家马德里的球衣？

Would you do, I don't know, sponsor a Real Madrid shirt?

你会赞助一辆F1赛车吗？

Would you do an f one car?

你会把钱投到安东的品牌上，给他配一个媒体团队，每天拍摄他的日常生活vlog和视频吗？

Would you pump money into Anton's brand and give him a media team to do daily vlogs and videos of what he does in a day?

而且

And

好的

K.

我想到几个具体的策略。

Couple tactical things come to mind.

我仍然会做户外广告。

I would still do out of home advertisement.

我认为户外广告正在强势回归，因为那里才是人们注意力集中的地方。

I think that is coming back in spades because that's where eyeballs are at.

那里才是真正能抓住注意力的地方。

That's where you can actually like capture attention.

我会大力投入视频和口述内容，而不仅仅是视觉广告，因为这样能更容易地解释事物。

I would go very heavily into video and talking, not just visual ads because then you can explain things so much easier.

我会瞄准亚马逊Prime视频、Spotify以及所有类似的平台，因为这些地方的竞争其实并不多。

I would, like, go after Amazon Prime Video, Spotify, and all of those of the world because there's just, like, not a lot of competition.

我会全力投身于创作者经济。

I will go after a creator economy so hard.

我会让每一个通讯简报、每一个播客都投放我的广告，彻底挤掉其他所有竞争者。

I would have every single newsletter, every single podcast, have my ad on it and just box out everybody else.

然后我会给每一位客户寄送我自己的T恤和帽子，让他们成为我四处行走的广告牌。

And then I would send every single one of my customers my own t shirt with a hat and just have them being my walking billboards all over the place.

这些衣服会是顶级品质的，真正让他们愿意穿出去的东西。

And they would be top quality, the things that they actually would want to wear.

他们会感觉这是一件超棒的、很酷的、值得拥有的东西。

And they would feel like there is, like, absolutely kick ass thing that is a cool thing to have.

所以我会尽可能多地在我的客户和人们已经聚集注意力的地方部署我的品牌，让我的品牌无处不在。

So I would just deploy as much as possible at the end of my customers and people where they're already spending eyes and eyeballs at to have my brand all around it.

如果我们逐一分析，首先是户外广告。

If we go through them, one, out of home.

我觉得大多数人做户外广告都做得非常差。

I think most people do out of home really badly.

我盯着广告牌或横幅看，心里想：这个坐在笔记本电脑前、在空荡荡的大厅里随意打字的人，周围只有一盆兰花，他到底在干什么？

I stare looking at billboards or banners, and I'm like, I have no idea what this person with a laptop is doing randomly typing in a very large drawing room with nothing but an orchid around them.

我觉得广告牌其实也可以像效果营销那样投放。

I think also billboards can be deployed almost in the performance marketing way.

我最喜欢的一个案例是，我曾和在Segment工作的Maya合作，Segment的做法是——我不确定。

So one of my favorite stories is I worked with Maya who was at Segment and the way Segment has worked and I don't know.

那种方式真的让我印象深刻。

That sort of, like, just sticks with me.

当他们想签下企业客户合同时，就会在那家公司办公楼正前方买一块广告牌，上面直接针对那家公司做广告。

The when they wanted to close an enterprise contract, they would buy a billboard right in front of that office, and they would put their ad on that billboard addressing that company specifically.

这是一种非常便宜的方式，就能签下六七位数的合同，因为他们直接向公司每一位员工精准投放了广告。

And it would be, like, the cheapest way to close a six, seven digit contract because they're like directly targeted every single employee in that company with the billboard.

所以我觉得，人们对广告牌的创意可以更多样化一些。

So I think that you can be like a lot more creative with the billboards the way that people think.

每个人都觉得一定是旧金山101号公路。

Everybody thinks constantly San Francisco 101.

我到底会在那条高速公路上的AI广告垃圾堆里看到什么？

Like, where am I gonna be in the AI slop of billboards on that freeway?

但我认为，你可以在电影院、出租车、地铁和公交车上做得聪明得多。

But I think you can do it so much smarter with movie theaters, with the taxis, with the subway systems, with buses.

回归基本吧，因为那里真的可以做出很酷的东西。

Like, go back to the basics because you can do some real cool shit there.

我记得我曾经投资过一位创始人，他做的是一个招聘平台，想让人们离开高盛去加入初创公司。

I remember one of the founders that I once invested in was doing a recruitment platform, and they were trying to get people away from Goldman Sachs and join startups.

那是一个初创公司的招聘平台。

And it was a startup recruitment platform.

所以他们在高盛大楼外竖了一块广告牌，上面写着：我打赌你爸妈为你在高盛工作感到骄傲。

So they got a billboard outside of Goldman Sachs, and they put, I bet your parents are proud of you working for Goldman.

然后你知道吗？那些大报纸都报道了这件事，因为这既有趣又具有攻击性，确实如此。

And then do you know what's amazing, The big newspapers wrote about it because it was funny and aggressive and Exactly.

很有个性。

Characterful.

而且你会获得媒体的倍增效应，因为它的风格实在太出格了。

And you get these multiplier effect of media because it's really out there.

但正如你所说，它必须有趣，而且要有个性。

But, like you said, it needs to be funny, and it needs to have character.

它不能只是那种迟钝的AI营销口号，比如‘基于云的AI协作平台’。

It cannot just have your tone deaf AI marketing slogan of something collaborative platform on cloud with AI.

像这种说法，完全行不通。

Like, you transformation, nothing.

这些词根本不能用。

Like those words cannot be used.

是的，你不可能吸引所有人。

And yes, you will not appeal to everybody.

这并不重要。

And it doesn't matter.

只要吸引那些会微笑、会轻笑、会从中留下回忆、并愿意谈论它的人就行了。

Just appeal to people that will have a smile, a chuckle, that will have a memory from it, that will want to talk about it.

我们正处在一个需要在营销中承担更多风险的时代。

Like, we are in the era where we need to start taking more risks in marketing.

人们必须摆脱过去二十年里被灌输的关于什么是优秀创意和优秀文案的刻板思维，因为我认为我们生活在一个不同的世界。

And people just need to get out of their, I don't know, boxed minds of how we've been trained for the last twenty years of what good creative and good copy looks like, because I think we live in a different world.

如果你想抓住人们的注意力，就必须跳出框框思考。

And if you wanna capture people's attention, you have to think outside of the box.

当我们谈到视频时，你会怎么处理视频呢？

When we think about video, what would you do with video?

你会怎么判断什么有效、什么无效？你看到过哪些有趣或无趣的内容？

How would you think about what would work, what doesn't work, what you see that's cool, what's not cool?

在一个无限自由、毫无限制的世界里，你会如何应对视频？

How would you approach video in a world of unlimited no constraints?

我认为AI生成的视频是未来。

So I think AI generated video is the future.

我刚刚试用了一个视频平台，上传了一张我的静态照片，它就自动生成了一个完整的视频，让我挥手动起来，还加入了前后切换和应用界面的完整广告效果。

I was just playing with video platform where just I uploaded my just still photo, and it just created a full thing of me moving my hands, doing the full ad with, like, back and forth transitions with with an app screen.

我认为手动制作视频仍然有其存在的空间，这些视频几乎会成为手工艺品，完全是手工打造的。

I think that there's still gonna be a place for manual video creation, and those are almost gonna be, like, artisan videos where it's just, like, handcrafted, hand hand created.

这就像拍照和用水彩画画之间的区别。

It's like a craft that it's just, like, think about, like, taking a picture versus painting the picture with watercolors.

这两者之间肯定还会存在一些差异。

It's, there's still gonna be some differences there.

但我认为，对于广告需求而言，AI将是视频乃至AE创意的未来方向。

But I think for advertising needs, AI is where videos and even AE creatives are gonna be at.

AI在视频和视觉创作方面的模型正以惊人的速度进步，它们能生成令人震撼的画面，还能以你无法在单次拍摄中实现的方式让你动起来，我认为这就是未来。

AI models on video creation and just visual creation are improving in such a rapid way, and they can create these striking images, and they can animate you in the way that you would never be able to record properly in one shot that I think it's the future.

我甚至在尝试用AI为我自己的博客内容生成动画，而不是亲自录制。

I'm, like, playing around even with creating animation for myself when I'm reading my own blog as opposed to, like, me recording it.

所以让我把截图放进去，输入博客的文稿，让它替我完成，看起来就像我在大声朗读并做注释，但实际上并不是我。

So let me just put in my screenshot, give it the blog's transcript, and let it do it for me so it looks like I'm reading it out loud, like, annotating it, but it's not me.

这完全是AI在完成所有工作。

It's just AI doing all of the work.

所以我认为广告的未来几乎将完全由AI主导。

So I think the future of advertising is gonna be almost purely all AI.

创作者经济正在赞助新闻通讯和创作者。

Creator Economy is sponsoring newsletters, creators.

人们尝试这样做，但往往乱撒钱，效果很差。

People try and do this, and they spray money, I think, pretty badly.

你认为怎样才能做好这件事？

How would you think about doing it well?

你会避免哪些做法？

What you would avoid?

你会选择横向拓展吗？

Would you go horizontal?

你会选择垂直方向吗？

Would you go vertical?

你怎么看这个问题？

How do you think about that?

每个创作者都有自己的受众。

So every creator has their audience.

你需要找到与你的理想客户画像受众最契合的创作者。

You need to find creators that align with your ideal customer profile audience the most.

我认为不能把创作者经济当成一劳永逸的事。

I think that you cannot look at creator economy as one and done.

比如，我只做一次广告投放，就指望立即看到效果。

Like, I'm doing one ad placement and I need to see performance out of it.

这介于效果营销和品牌曝光之间，因为他们的受众并不是去那里发现新产品的。

It's somewhere between performance, but it's most definitely brand awareness touch point because their audience is not going there to discover new products, so to speak.

我认为这里的持续性很重要。

And I think that consistency here matters.

你需要做好打持久战的准备。

Like, you have to be in it for a long haul.

我认为覆盖面很重要。

I think the coverage matters.

所以你不能只做一份通讯。

So you cannot just be, let's say, one newsletter.

你必须覆盖多个平台。

You have to go across multiples.

你得把它看作是：我要做广告牌，或者我要找创作者合作。

And you have to just look at it as a, hey, I'm gonna do billboards or I'm gonna do creators.

我可以在社交媒体上找网红，或者找通讯创作者。

I can do influencers on social, or I can do newsletter creators.

我也可以找播客主。

I can do podcasters.

有些渠道的费用其实很低，因为很多人并不清楚该收多少钱。

Some of those slots are super cheap too because people, like, they're not educated of how much to charge.

你可以花很少的钱就获得成千上万的曝光量。

You can go and, like, get thousands of impressions for, like, based to nothing.

我不明白为什么更多人不这么做。

I don't know why more people don't do that.

而且我认为他们通常会想，我的广告点击率会是多少？

And I think that most of the time they think, oh, what is gonna be my click through rate through my ad?

但这并不是搜索引擎营销。

But it's not an SEM.

这也不是谷歌广告。

It's not an AdWords ad.

这并不是基于谷歌搜索结果的付费广告。

It's not a paid marketing advertising off of Google search results.

人们低估了品牌与创作者之间的关联，以及他们精准触达该创作者所积累的特定受众的能力——这种通过为特定受众创作内容而建立的渠道，目前在营销中完全被忽视了。

And I think people underestimate association of their brand with that creator and their ability to target very specific audience that that creator earned by creating content for that audience that is just completely unappreciated as a channel in marketing right now at scale.

你会尝试追踪它的转化效果吗？

Do you try and get attribution from it?

你会使用推荐码、折扣码之类的手段来追踪转化效果吗？

Do you try and do referral codes, discount codes, whatever it is to get attribution?

或者你就干脆说，算了，这属于品牌曝光吧，也行。

Or you let you know what, it's in the brand bucket, fine.

我觉得折扣码总是不错的，能给观众一点小福利。

I think discount codes are always nice just to give that audience a little something.

我真心认为，我不说纯粹的打折策略，但把免费赠送产品作为试用，作为你营销预算的最主要部分，这始终应该是正确的做法。

I truly believe in, I wouldn't say like a pure discounting strategy, but giving your product away for free for people to try as the biggest portion of your marketing budget, I think always has to be the case.

那我这话是什么意思呢？

So what do I mean by that?

让我简单给你解释一下。

Let me just explain you real quickly.

是的，你可以使用折扣码。

Yes, you can do discount codes.

你可以直接提供免费赠品。

You can just give free offers.

你可以把免费增值模式做得更大。

You can make your freemium even bigger.

但如果你看看整体的营销支出，你的免费赠送——无论是作为免费增值的一部分，还是折扣码之类的——都必须超过你的付费营销支出。

But if you look at your overall marketing spend, your free giveaways, whether it's part freemium, whether it's discount codes or whatnot, has to be bigger than your paid marketing spend.

我真心相信，这对每一家公司来说都是正确的比例。

That I truly believe is the right ratio for every single company.

因为如果你不用产品以某种优惠方式来获取客户，我认为你只是把太多钱给了谷歌和Meta这样的平台，而没有给你的产品施加足够的压力去惊艳用户。

Because if you're not using your product to acquire customers in some sort of offers way, I think that you're just giving too much money away to Google's and Metas of the world and not putting enough pressure on your product to wow people.

但折扣码确实不错。

But discount codes are good.

我看到你发的一篇关于社交媒体和个人品牌力量的文章。

I saw you a post of yours and this power of social and your personal brand.

我看到你在妇女节的促销活动，

I saw your offer on Women's Day where

是的。

I Yeah.

而且把它设为免费。

And making it free.

恕我直言，这有效吗？

With respect, does that work?

有多少人实际使用了这个优惠？

Do you get a lot of take up on that?

这能带来转化，还是仅仅提升了品牌好感？

Does it lead to conversion or is it kind of good brand?

等妇女节过后再问我吧。

Well, ask me after Women's Day.

我们会看到这到底带来了多少转化。

We'll see how much it actually leads to conversion.

Lovable 之前有过几次免费周末，那时我们会完全免费提供产品。

Lovable has had a couple of free weekends before where we would offer product completely for free.

第一次免费周末在用户获取方面效果相当不错。

The first free weekend was quite good from acquisition perspective.

那是2025年初，当时这个品牌才成立几个月。

It was in early twenty twenty five when the brand was only couple months old.

第二次免费周末是去年夏天。

The second free weekend was summer last year.

所以大约七个月后，我们刚刚接近一亿美元的年经常性收入（ARR）。

So about seven months in, after we had just about almost hit a 100,000,000 in ARR.

这相当于产品发展到了一个中等偏低的阶段。

So like a little bit like a man lower medium stage of where the product has been.

这次在重新激活和唤醒现有用户方面效果惊人，加深了他们的使用场景。

And that one has been incredible for reengagement and resurrection of existing users, deepening their use cases.

有趣的是，这更像是一次留存策略，而不是获客策略。

So it was more of a retention play than acquisition play interestingly enough.

但这次妇女节，我不知道你那边怎么样，也许算法把我屏蔽了，但我看到的全是人们在讨论Lovable免费日。

But this time for Women's Day, I don't know about you, maybe algorithm is like boxing me out, but all I see is people talking about Lovable Free Day.

所以，仅仅因为人们如此兴奋地期待——产品将免费一整天——这种社会影响力就已经非常显著了。

So the social impact of just people being so excited about it, rightfully so, product is gonna be completely free for a day.

对我来说，这是花钱也买不到的东西。

To me, that is something that you cannot pay for.

这简直是一场需要我们花费数百万美元才能执行的营销活动。

That is like a marketing campaign that would cost us millions of dollars to execute on.

我们的用户正在为我们做所有营销工作，并拉拢他们周围的人加入 Lovable。

And our users are doing all of the marketing for us and grabbing everybody around them to bring into Lovable.

所以我们得看看它的表现如何，因为这是我们第一次这么早就提前通知。

So we'll see how it performs because this is the first time that we gave notice so early.

通常我们都是前一天才宣布。

Usually we did it like a day before.

所以之前都是临时决定的。

So it was like very last minute.

而这次我们第一次把它与一个使命结合起来，而不仅仅是说‘免费一天’。

And this is the first time that we aligned it with a mission as opposed to just saying it's a free day.

我们一直在不断尝试，这次是一个大规模的测试，看看会有什么结果。

So we're always experimenting and this is a large test that we're running to see how it's gonna go.

但仅凭市场覆盖和由此产生的热议，我认为这几乎是无价的，因为这一切都是由我们自己的用户创造的。

But just the market coverage and the buzz that it creates, I think it's fairly priceless because it's created by our own users.

你觉得应该如何设定有效的关键绩效指标，来衡量这类活动的成功与否？

How do you think about setting effective KPIs to determine the success of a campaign like this?

我们当然有非常重要的关键绩效指标，比如预期吸引多少新用户、预期获得多少新注册、预期唤醒多少沉睡用户，以及有多少活跃的现有用户会参与进来。

So we obviously have really big KPIs on how many people we expect to bring in, how many new sign ups we expect to get, how many people we expect to resurrect, how many existing users that are already active are going to come in.

我们还会观察当天创建或深化编辑的应用程序数量。

We're going to see how many apps are created or deepened in the editing that day.

我们还会看其中有多少会被发布。

We're going to see how many of them go published.

我们的北极星指标是日活跃应用数。

So our North Star metric is daily active apps.

我们预计这个数字会大幅上升。

So we expect that to shoot up.

主要目标是，这仅仅是回到以往的增长水平，还是会带来一个阶梯式的跃升，从而让我们从此进入新的增长阶段？

The main goal is, is it going to just come down to previous growth levels or is it going to be a step function change and then we're gonna grow from there?

所以我们的目标是真正了解新曝光以及现有用户在参与度上的深化。

So our goal is to really understand the new exposure and deepening engagement with our existing users on engagement level.

变现显然是这一过程的自然结果，但这并不是我们主要优化的KPI。

Monetization obviously will just be a result outcome of that, but that is not primary KPI that we're optimizing against.

我很喜欢利用妇女节、周末免费赠送之类的活动。

I love that taking advantage of like Women's Day or a weekend of like free giveaways or whatever that is.

当我们考虑产品发布时，关于如何做好产品发布和增长策略，你最大的经验或建议是什么？

When we think about product launches, what are your biggest lessons or piece of advice on how to do product launch as well as a growth tactic?

所以

So

这个问题问得太好了。

such a great question.

在Lovable，产品发布的方式与我见过的任何其他公司都大不相同。

At Lovable, the way product launches are done, they're very different than any other company that I've seen.

大多数情况下，你的产品发布可能一个月一次，如果运气好的话，通常是每三个月一次，也就是季度性发布。

Most of the time your product launch maybe once a month, if you're lucky, most likely once every three months, so a quarterly launch.

如果你在大公司运气很差，可能每半年或每年才发布一次。

If you're very unlucky in the larger company, it's a semi annual or annual launch.

发布节奏非常缓慢。

It's very slow cadences.

你会试图围绕发布制造大事件，因为这是你制造话题、获取新用户、重新激活现有用户的机会。

And you try to create big moments around it because that is your time to make buzz, to acquire new users, to reengage existing users.

在Lovable，我们承诺每天都会发布。

At Lovable, we are committed to launching every day.

因此，持续的热度一直在产生。

So there's ongoing buzz that is happening.

Lovable每天都在进化。

Lovable is evolving every single day.

每一天都在变得更好。

Every single day is getting better.

总有一些地方在改进。

Something is improving.

这对我们保持在该品类中的相关性至关重要。

And that is very important for us to just stay relevant in the category.

此外，每隔一到两个月，我们会进行一次大型发布，我们称之为一级发布，将一系列功能打包在一起，无论背后是否有故事，是否有质的飞跃，以及实际发生了什么。

And then on top of it, every one to two months, we make big, what we call tier one launches, which bundle a bunch of functionality, whether there is a story behind it, whether there is a step function change and what is actually happening.

但这种策略非常有趣：在市场中持续制造噪音，同时在实际发布时制造高峰。

But it's really interesting strategy of just constant noise in the market and then big spikes in what we're actually launching.

我知道，这种持续的噪音是我们留存策略的一部分。

And I know that that constant noise is part of our retention strategy.

这种持续的噪音也推动了大量用户的回归，因为人们觉得它是一个有生命、会呼吸、不断成长和演进的产品，他们总是想回来再试一次，而不是让我们在一个月甚至三个月的沉寂中被遗忘，而竞争对手却在不断发布新产品。

That constant noise is what drives a lot of resurrection for us as well, because people feel like it's a living, breathing thing that is constantly growing and evolving, and they always want to come back and try it again, as opposed to us getting into forgettable zone almost a month, three months away and seeing competitors launch.

所以，这是一种完全不同的看待发布的方式。

So it's like a really different way to think about launches altogether.

但你们是怎么做到每天都有发布呢？

But how do you have a launch every day?

每个人都希望每天都能发布。

Everyone would love to have a launch every day.

这仅仅是产品迭代速度快，并且对每一件小事都大声宣传吗？

Is it just like the product velocity and being very vocal about every single little thing?

我们并不会对每一件小事都大声宣传。

So we're not vocal about every single little thing.

我们的市场营销团队并不会参与每天的发布。

Our marketing does not get involved in every single day of launches.

这些其实只是发布，也许我该这么称呼它们。

Those are just really, maybe I should just call them releases.

我们的工程团队每天都会发布多个功能，以提升用户体验，而不仅仅是修复bug。

Our engineering releases multiple things every single day that improve customer experience, not just bugs.

我甚至不是在谈论bug，而是那些基于用户不满、能力不足或功能缺失而做出的实际产品改进。

I'm not even talking about bugs, and actual changes in product that are based on frustrations, are based on lack of capacity, that are based on lack of capability.

然后我们会鼓励他们将这些发布内容发到社交媒体上。

And then we encourage them to go post it on social.

我们还有一个名为‘蜂群效应’的频道，他们会把帖子发在那里，我们所有人都会去‘蜂群式’互动，帮助提升帖子的传播效果。

And then we have a channel that's called beeswarming, where they post their posts and we all go beeswarming on that post to try to get it more amplification.

所以我们试图让每个工程师都像营销人员一样思考，或者挑出我们感兴趣的内容并在社交媒体上分享。

So we try to make a marketer out of every single engineer, or we pick out things that we're excited about and post about it on social too.

因此，这些发布活动是由员工主导的营销，而营销团队则会将全部资源投入到一级发布或与合作伙伴联合推出的活动中，这些活动旨在向客户讲述品牌故事。

So it's like an employee led marketing for these releases, And then marketing comes in and puts all of its firepower behind tier one or some partner launches that are really meant to tell the story to the customer.

但保持持续的曝光度很重要。

But staying top of mind is important.

相关性至关重要。

Relevancy is everything.

是的。

Yeah.

一切皆相关。

Everything.

人们几乎会忘记你说过什么，但你出现所带来的影响才是最重要的。

People almost forget what you said, but the impact of you being there is what's important.

而且，相关性始终是最重要的。

And, again, relevancy is everything.

蜜蜂式传播，我喜欢这个说法。

Beeswarming, I love that.

11 Labs 也这么做。

And 11 Labs do it as well.

当有100个人来自Lovable在一分钟内喜欢某个内容时，这真的有区别吗？

Does it really make a difference when you have a 100 people from Lovable like something within a minute?

这对算法影响很大吗？

It makes a big difference to algos?

是的。

Yes.

这会产生很大影响。

It makes a big difference.

其实重点不在于点赞，而在于评论。

It's actually not so much about like, it's more about comments.

所以，是的，你可能会点赞或转发，但目前算法最看重的是评论。

So, yeah, you like, maybe you repost, but it's the comment that makes the biggest difference where the algorithms pick up right now.

而且这些并不是都在第一分钟内发生的。

And it's not all happening in the first minute.

人们会在他们有空的时候才去参与，所以这些互动会分散在头几个小时内。

People get to it when they get to it, so it's spread out throughout the first couple of hours.

但我每天结束时都会去那个频道，逐个查看。

But I go to that channel at the end of each day and I just go down the line.

好的。

Okay.

让我去支持一下大家所分享的内容，我也可以通过我的平台为他们增加更多曝光。

Let me go support all of the things that people have said, and I can get them more visibility through my platform as well.

所以我们互相支持，效果非常好。

So we support all each other, and it works quite nicely.

自从他们开始这样做以来，我们的员工粉丝数增长了不少，因为我们都在为他们蜂拥点赞。

We had employees that have grown their followings quite a bit since they started because of that, because we're just all beeswarm on them.

你提到的最后一个就是周边商品。

Final one that you mentioned there was, like, swag.

我有最多的周边商品，埃琳娜。

I have the most inordinate amount of swag, Elena.

我敢打赌你也有好多劣质T恤和劣质帽子。

I'm sure you do too, of shit T shirts and shit caps.

我不知道那是什么东西。

And the I don't know what it is.

很抱歉把你们一概而论为一个国家，但你们美国人确实就是一个国家。

I'm so sorry to lump you in as one nation, but you are one nation Americans.

你们还有那种大容量的饮料。

And you have these the big drinks that you have.

就是那种像足球妈妈喝的饮品。

So, you know, the, like, the soccer mom drink things.

斯坦利杯？

Stanley Cup?

就是那种。

Those ones.

是的。

Yes.

我有大约50个。

I have about 50 of them.

你有。

You do.

你能寄一些给我吗？

Can you send me some my way?

我女儿很喜欢一个。

My daughter loves one.

我要写个便条。

I'm I'm I'm gonna write a note.

顺便说一下，你可以拥有一批这样的东西，虽然初创公司都死了，但斯坦利杯还在。

You you can have an array of some of them, by the way, the startups are dead, but the Stanley Cup survives.

明白？

Okay?

如果有人像我一样，想为我们的投资组合公司和有限合伙人准备周边商品，你有什么建议吗？

Would be your advice to someone on like, okay, me, I want swag for our portfolio companies, for our LPs.

有什么建议？

What advice?

该做什么，不该做什么，你希望怎么做？

What to do, what not to do, what you'd like to do?

帮帮我吧。

Help me out.

我不能说我们在Lovable做得有多好。

I can't say that at Lovable we're doing right either.

我们只是零星地做，偶尔搞一下。

We do it like on, one off basis.

我们花了好一段时间才把周边商品发给所有员工，因为我们希望质量上乘。

It took us for a while even to get the swag to all of our own employees, because we wanted it to be top quality.

我们不想随便外包，然后给每个人发一件洗一次就坏的廉价T恤。

We didn't wanna just outsource it and get like another shitty t shirt on everybody that falls apart after the first wash.

所以现在市场上一个很大的痛点就在于如何规模化地做这件事，因为首先，做好这件事成本相当高。

So it's actually a pretty big friction in the market right now, like how to do this at scale, because A, it's quite expensive to do it right.

其次，很难找到能为你规模化运营的合作伙伴。

And two, it's really hard to find partners that can scale the operations for you.

我知道，如果你的客户穿上你的T恤，这是你能做的最好的事情。

I just know that if your customer wears your T shirt, that is the best thing that you can possibly do.

所以，如何达到这样一个时刻呢？比如，我们第一次和第二次举办“She Builds”黑客松时，给每一位参与者都寄了T恤，人们在LinkedIn上发帖说：天哪，我收到了Lovable的T恤。

So how to get to the moment where Well, we, for example, when we did She Builds Hackathon first two times, the first time to every single participant, we sent t shirts and people posted about it on LinkedIn, oh my gosh, I got a Lovable t shirt.

我会一直穿着它。

I'll wear it all the time.

所以在一开始，当你的品牌还很热门时，人们希望与之产生关联，你就必须尽可能地抓住这个机会。

So there's some element of at the beginning of like, it's a hot brand and I want to be affiliated with it and you need to lean into it as much as possible.

但同时，有人想要一件谷歌的T恤吗？

At the same time, does anybody want a Google T shirt?

我不确定。

I don't know.

就像这样，这些T恤到处都是，你可以在礼品店买到，上面印着谷歌之类的字样。

It's like, it's just like it's it's all over the place and you can buy them in gift shops that like to say Google or something on them.

所以我认为这种策略有它适用的时间和场合。

So I think there's a time and place for that strategy.

大多数时候，当你正火起来、快速增长，人们希望与你的品牌产生关联，从而提升自己。

And it's most of the time when you're hot and you're growing really fast and people wanna feel that affiliation with your brand lifts them in some way.

在你加入Lovable的前一晚，你可以打电话给自己说：‘埃琳娜，你得知道这一点。’

You can call yourself up the night before you join Lovable and say, Elena, you should know this.

如果你能打电话给自己，你会对过去的自己说什么？

What would you say to yourself if you had the ability to call yourself up and say that?

在Lovable，每个月都像在普通公司里过了一年，经历了那么多变化，Miro如何演进，每个月有多少优先级的调整。

That every month at Lovable feels like a year in a normal company in terms of how much change it goes through and how much Miro even evolves, how many priority shifts we have in a given month.

我还会告诉自己一件事：我会对六个月后自己所做的事情感到惊叹，那将完全不同于我过去二十年职业生涯中的任何经历。

And one more thing that I would really tell myself is that I'd be in awe at what I'd be doing six months from starting the job, and that'll be completely different from anything I've done in the last twenty years of my career.

所以我是个初创公司创始人，心想：哇。

So I'm a startup founder, and I'm like, wow.

莎拉曾在Notion负责增长业务，我不确定具体是哪家公司。

Sarah led growth at, I don't know, Notion.

我并不是在针对他们，只是随便选了个公司而已。

And I'm not picking on them, just like choosing a random company.

太棒了。

Amazing.

一家了不起的公司。

Amazing company.

在Notion负责增长业务。

Led growth at Notion.

天哪。

Gosh.

她一定非常出色。

She must be amazing.

她是否出色重要吗？因为这是个不同的世界，还是说，关键在于对成长的心态弹性？

Does it matter if she's amazing because it's a different world, or actually, is it about mental plasticity towards growth?

我认为这关乎自主性。

I think it's about agency.

这关乎人们的自主权。

It's about people's autonomy.

这关乎人们的动力和探索这个世界如何因人工智能而变化的渴望。

It's about people's drive and wantingness to explore of how this world is changing with AI.

我仍然认为莎拉很重要。

I do still think that Sarah's matter.

比如，我把自己看作是一个莎拉。

Like, I consider myself a Sarah.

我已经在这个领域待了二十年。

I've been there for twenty years.

我深深扎根于各种模式和框架中，以及过去做事的方式，因为这一直是我整个职业生涯的核心。

Like, I've so deeply written in patterns and frameworks and, like, how things used to be done because that's been my entire professional career.

我确实拥有许多模式，能帮助公司避免在明显的问题上出错。

And I do have a lot of patterns that will help company to not trip up over obvious things.

我确实为业务带来了这种价值，但我也需要与那些不受我多年经验束缚的人搭配合作，这样我才能放手去做。

I do bring that value to the business, But I also need to be paired with people that are not burdened with those decades of knowledge I can just go.

他们能开阔我的视野，教会我新的做事方式。

That can open my horizons, that can teach me the new ways of how to do it.

因为每一件事我都会下意识地回想：我以前是怎么做的？

Because every single thing that I do, I still rely like, how did I do it before?

现在让我试试怎么做。

Let me do it now.

我不断被Lovable团队里的每个人提醒：不，应该这样做的。

And I'm constantly pressed by everybody at Lovable that are like, no, this is the way to do it.

一开始，我的思维会崩溃，心想：我从没这么做过。

And at first, my mind breaks and like, no, I've never done this before.

这不是正确的做法。

This is not how you do it.

我必须不断尝试他们的方法。

And I have to constantly try their way.

但我觉得，我们两个人结合在一起，就像是莎拉的旧派与那些没有那种背景、没有那种包袱的新员工新派之间的完美融合，这种融合推动了公司前进，因为你可以用CERES防止愚蠢的错误发生，同时让不受历史模式束缚的新派推动AI原生化。

But I think both of us together, it's almost like old guard of Sarah's and new guard of, like, employees that don't have that context, that don't have that baggage is what creates a perfect harmony that pushes the company forward because you can prevent stupid mistakes from happening with CERES, but then you can push into AI nativeness with the new guard that is not burdened by those patterns in history.

这是我经常思考的问题。

This is something that I I think about a lot.

在高度流动的环境中，当数据下滑时，你如何防止士气下降？

How do you prevent morale from reducing when numbers are down in very transient worlds?

比如到了夏天，人们更多时间在外面，没那么频繁地使用Lovable。

When it's summer, people are outside more, they're not on Lovable as much, say.

当数据不理想时，你如何防止士气流失？

How do you prevent morale seeping when numbers are not there?

所以我认为第一步是提前预演：如果数据开始下滑，会发生什么？

So I think step number one is try to have premortems about what would happen if your numbers start to go down.

这样在刚发现数据异常时，你就已经有了应对方案。

So you have the action plan at the earliest time of noticing those numbers.

这样你就不会被动应对了。

So you're not reacting to it.

你已经有一套应对危机的预案了，可以说是在出问题时的作战计划。

You already have a go to war plan, so to speak, when something goes wrong.

所以这些应该在任何重大发布、任何大型上线、年底之前就进行。

So this should be happening before any big release, before any big launch, before end of the year.

你应该做事前预演。

You should do pre mortems.

最好的前进路径是预想最坏的情况发生时你该如何应对。

On the best path forward is the worst things happen to you.

竞争对手进入市场。

Competitor enters.

我非常相信在早期就进行这些对话。

I really believe in having those conversations early on.

第二，要了解那些预示你走向下滑的关键预测指标，而不仅仅是看收入，因为当收入开始下滑时，已经太晚了。

Number two, knowing the key predictive indicators that will lead you into the decline, not just looking at revenue, because when moment revenue starts declining, it's already too fucking late.

所以你需要提前知道，我会看到什么？

So you need to know beforehand, what will I see?

什么会成为征兆？

What will lead?

什么会提醒我即将下滑？

What will warn me of that decline?

至少让你有几个月，也许六个月的时间来应对，而不是等到实际收入下滑时才行动。

Just so you at least have couple of months, maybe six months to react before actual revenue impact is gonna get hit.

所以我认为这两点很重要。

So those two things I think are important.

我认为第三点是我们必须接受一个事实：有些人无法应对业务中的负面信息。

And I think number three, we just have to accept the fact that some people don't do good with negativity of the business.

他们不会站出来试图扭转局面。

They're not gonna be the ones that are stand up and try to reverse it out.

你需要审视你的文化，明白有些人热衷于自己所做的事，热衷于产品，愿意迎接挑战，而有些人则不是。

And you need to look at your culture and say there are gonna be people that are passionate about what they do, that are passionate about the product, that are gonna be up for the challenge, and that are people that are not.

我无法改变那些不这样的人。

And I'm not gonna be able to change people that are not.

所以我需要投资那些能够引领变革、并帮助我走出困境的人。

So I need to invest into people that will lead the change and that I believe will help me be able to get out of it.

这很大程度上关乎人们的态度，但你需要找到那些能为你的组织带来质变的人。

It's so much just about people's attitudes, but you need to find the ones that bring the right step function change into your organization.

但你要尽可能提前做好准备。

But get yourself prepared as much as possible beforehand.

人们常常说，专注于自己的赛道。

Often people say, row your own race.

别去担心竞争对手。

Don't worry about competitors.

但今天，你确实不得不关注竞争对手了。

Today, you kind of have to worry about competitors.

奢侈

Luxury

你是这么认为的吗？

Do you?

你不这么认为吗？

Don't you?

如果Claude代码发布了新版本，而你不知道这可能是导致你某些数据下降的原因，你就无法做出数据驱动的决策。

If Claude code releases something and you don't know that that could be why you're seeing numbers reduce in some way, you wouldn't be able to make data informed decisions.

好的。

Okay.

所以我认为问题在于，你如何定义‘担忧’？

So I think the question is what do you define as worry?

我认为你必须密切关注竞争对手，了解他们的动向，因为当客户做出选择时，你需要清楚自己面对的是什么。

I think that you have to watch your competitors very carefully and know what they're doing because you need to know what you're playing against in the field when the customers are making a choice.

但你会不会过度关注竞争对手，让他们左右你的产品路线图、增长策略和营销活动？

But do you obsess about your competitors and let them dictate your roadmap and your growth and marketing activities?

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

你必须从‘对他们有效的方法可能对我们无效’的角度来看待这个问题。

You have to look at it through the lens of what works for them may not work for us.

我们有没有其他方式来实现它并占领市场？

Do we have an alternative way to do it and capture the market?

但你必须了解你所面对的团队吗？

But do you have to know the team you're playing against?

当然。

Absolutely.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no question about that.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

这一点随时间变化了吗？

Has that changed over time?

当功能的开发成本非常高时，我们可以稍微更关注竞争对手。

When the functionality was very expensive to produce, we could afford to obsess about competitors a little bit more.

如今，功能开发的速度快得多，这几乎为你提供了一个非常明确的观点，让你集中所有资源去验证这个假设，并祈祷它能成功。

With the functionality and the speed of development happening so much faster now, it almost paves the way for you to just have a very opinionated point of view of where you need to go and pull all efforts behind that hypothesis and praying and hoping that it plays out.

但你不能再只是复制竞争对手来获胜了，因为那只会是一场小规模的游戏。

But you cannot just copy your competitors and win anymore because it's gonna be a small game.

你觉得 Lovable 会取代 Figma 和设计流程吗？

Do you think Lovable removes the need for Figma and the design process?

我认为，目前对于特定垂直领域和专业用途，仍然会需要相应的工具。

I think that there's always gonna be tools for vertical use cases for specific specialties for now.

不过，你能在 Lovable 中不使用 Figma 设计出美观的原型吗？

However, can you design beautiful prototypes in Lovable without Figma?

是的。

Yes.

AI 在设计方面只会变得越来越好。

And AI is only gonna get better at design.

我仍然非常认为 Figma 在特定工作流程中仍有其时间和位置，这一点毫无疑问。

I still still very much see a time and place for Figma for specific workflows, and there's no question about that.

但我对 Figma 更大的担忧是，一年后会发生什么。

But my bigger just worries for Figma is what will happen a year from now.

当人工智能变得如此强大时，它将能够完成所有细微的改动，甚至延伸到软件设计之外，比如CAD文件、三维设计等。

When AI is gonna be so good, it will be able to do all of the little changes down to like even outside of software design, like to CAD files, to three d designs.

如果我们能完成所有这些呢？

What if we'll be able to do all of that?

在人工智能能为你 shortcut 所有这些步骤的情况下，你为什么还需要设计软件呢？

Why would you need design software at that point where it can shortcut all of those stages for you.

如果你仍然认为Figma有其必要性，而且他们还有Figma Make，你怎么看待这一点？

If you still see a need for Figma and they have Figma Make, how do you think about that?

我认为大多数非技术人员并不会从Figma开始。

I think that most of the non technical users don't start with Figma.

确实有一大批设计师是从Figma开始的，如果他们想要制作功能原型，Figma对他们来说非常合适。

And there's a pretty large population of there's designers that start in Figma and Figma makes a lot of sense for them if they want to have their functional prototypes.

但还有产品经理、分析师、市场人员、销售人员，甚至工程师、运营人员、人力资源人员。

But there's product managers, analysts, marketer, sales, even engineers, operations people, HR people.

所有这些人都从不使用Figma。

All of those people, they never live at Figma.