20Growth：ElevenLabs背后的66亿美元增长引擎 | 为何ElevenLabs不设产品经理 | 七步发布策略助你横扫所有产品发布——对话ElevenLabs增长负责人Luke Harries

所以是动态设计、创始人主导和屏幕共享。

So motion design, founder led, and screen share.

这三种就是全部了。

Those are the three.

我们分别会在什么场景下使用它们呢？

What are the different use cases we would use them for?

任何大型发布，我们都会倾向于使用动态设计。

Any big launch, we lean towards motion design.

你可以快速传达非常复杂的产品信息。

You can get very complex products across quickly.

至于创始人主导的类型，我个人觉得风险很大，因为很容易变得自我中心。

The founder led one, personally, I think those are really risky because it can become quite egoful.

稍微提一下Superhuman，我知道你和他们关系很好。

To slightly call out Superhuman, they are an incredible I know you're good friends with them.

说实话，Superhuman在增长方面非常出色，但他们最近的发布视频长达五分钟，完全是创始人主导的。

Truthfully, Superhuman are incredible at growth generally, but their most recent launch video is about five minutes, very founder led.

你不喜欢那个楼梯吗？

Did you not like the staircase?

楼梯很漂亮，但你知道，你正在看《泰坦尼克号》的场景。

The staircase the staircase was beautiful, but, you know, you're watching Titanic scene.

我一直在等罗斯出现。

I was waiting for Rose to come.

楼梯很漂亮，但你看到的是拉胡尔走下这美丽的楼梯。

The staircase was beautiful, but you're watching Rahul walk down this beautiful staircase.

等他走到楼梯底部时，你可能已经转移注意力了。

And by the time he's walked to the bottom, kind of you've moved on.

所以在这种注意力经济中，你真的需要让内容简短有力。

And so then in this, like, attention economy, you really need to make it short and snappy.

我认为，如果你的产品比较平淡，比如快消品，或者你在做某种生活方式类内容，或者背后已经有知名创作者，那可能还行。

I think that can work maybe if you have, like, a more boring product, like a consumer packaged goods or you're doing some sort of lifestyle or if you have, like, a prominent creator behind it already, fantastic.

但总的来说，我对这些方式会保持相当谨慎。

But in general, I'd be quite cautious of those.

第三种是更像屏幕共享的类型。

And then the third type is the more, like, screen share.

我认为，如果你面向的是技术型受众，他们本质上希望深入探讨产品的细节和工艺，那么这种形式非常有效。

And I think this really works well if you're selling to a technical audience who they basically want to nerd out on the details and the product itself and the craft, then those are great.

它们制作起来非常快。

They're very quick to make.

Screen Studio 是用于这种用途的绝佳软件。

Screen Studio is a fantastic piece of software to use for that.

很有趣。

Fascinating.

你怎么看待使用幽默？

How do you think about using humor?

有没有一种情况适合使用古怪的幽默，还是根本不行？

Is there any world where quirky humor, or is it actually like, no.

不行。

No.

不。

No.

这是B2B销售，或者说是专业工具。

This is a b to b sell, or this is a professional tool.

是的。

Yeah.

别试图搞笑。

Don't try and be funny.

我认为这取决于你们公司的品牌。

I think it depends on the brand of your company.

所以Eleven Labs，我们努力保持Eleven Labs的核心品牌风格。

So Eleven Labs, we try and do the core Eleven Labs brand.

它相当严肃、非常务实。

It's, like, pretty serious, very concrete.

我们希望把自己定位为像Palantir、OpenAI和SpaceX这样的公司，我们是使命驱动的。

We'd like to see ourselves among, like, Palantir and OpenAI and SpaceX as we're, like, mission driven.

我们全力投入打造全球领先的AI音频模型。

We're going all in to build the world's AI audio models.

如果你的品牌风格比较 quirky，那就大胆采用吧。

If instead you have a quirky brand, yes, lean into it.

我们也会尝试融入一些幽默元素。

And we try and get, like, glimpses of humor.

在愚人节，我们推出了一个叫 Text to Bark 的虚构产品——你输入文字，它能通过狗叫与你的狗交流，或者 Bark to Text，把狗叫翻译成文字。

For April fools, we did Text to Bark, which was a imaginary product where you type in text and you can speak to your dog through barking or bark to text and you can translate it.

所以，是的，我觉得这行得通，但如果你本身不幽默，就别硬来。

So, yeah, I think it can work, but if you're not funny, don't use it.

你能做 text to wife 吗？

Can you do text to wife?

当你有了妻子，哈里，当然可以。

When you have a wife, Harry, yes.

这其实会是个绝佳的愚人节创意产品。

This this would be a hilarious product actually for the next April fools.

你们有没有做过完全失败的项目，而且从中吸取了教训？

Have you ever done one which totally flopped and you're like, and there was a lesson tied to it?

刚开始的时候，我们没有好的动态设计承包商。

At the start, we didn't have good motion design contractors.

我们内部也没有相关人才。

We didn't have anyone in house.

所以主要的失败原因是和那些根本没有做好准备的承包商合作。

And so the main way it flopped was trying to work with contractors who just didn't have good enough contractors set up.

因此，我强烈建议尽快把视频制作团队内部化，因为在产品发布时，你需要快速行动。

And so I really actually recommend bringing in video in house really quick because when you're doing launches, you need to move super quickly.

从产品准备就绪到开展各种营销活动，你只有大约一周的时间。

You have, like, a week from the product getting ready where you're running all this different marketing.

所以把视频制作内部化吧。

So bring it in house.

没错。

Yeah.

主要的错误是我们没有组建起合适的团队来执行。

The main mistakes are when we just don't have the right team in place to execute.

我完全同意你关于将工作内部化的方法。

I so agree with you on bringing it in house.

但创始人会告诉我：我明白，但你有资源，而我想先测试一下。

But then founders say to me, I get it, but you have the resources and I wanna test.

有没有一种方法，可以不用花5万到10万美元雇一名动态设计师来进行测试？

Is there a way to test in a non 50 to a 100 gram way of hiring a motion designer?

有的。

Yeah.

大多数动态设计师会为你某个特定项目工作，收费大约在5000到1万美元之间。

So most motion designers, they work with you on a specific project for about 5 to 10 k.

因此，对于大多数融过资的人来说，这笔费用应该足以用来测试了。

And so that should be for most people who have raised money, that should be enough to be able to test it.

想想我们每次发布产品，大多数发布都能获得20万到70万次的观看量。

If you think of every launch we do, most launches get somewhere between 200,000 views and 700,000 views.

如果你把这些钱花在Facebook广告或其他媒介上，CPM和CAC会高得多。

And if you were to have to spend that on Facebook ads or any other medium, it's the CPMs, the CACs are gonna be way higher.

所以这绝对值得去做。

So it's absolutely worth doing it.

简直疯了。

Fucking nuts.

你担心随着视频供应的激增，视频的价值会下降吗？

Do you worry that the value of video is going down with the explosion of supply?

这确实是我在担心的问题。

It's something that I do worry about.

我们有专门的视频团队，但每个人都在做视频。

And we have teams of video people, but everyone is fucking doing video.

我只是担心，随着供应量增加，视频反而越来越难被发现。

And I just worry that actually with the increase in supply, it becomes harder and harder to discover.

也许吧。

Maybe.

我认为我们还没到那一步，我仍然觉得视频是最有效的媒介，能够传达你的信息并留住人们的注意力。

I don't think we're there yet, and I still think it's the most effective medium in order to get your message across to keep people's attention.

现在人们不想读博客文章了。

People don't want to read blog posts now.

相反，制作一段简洁的视频吧。

Instead, have a crisp video.

平台也很喜欢视频，并且会给予推广。

The platforms also love it, and they boost it.

我所能想象的可能走向是，像Twitter现在的直播功能。

The way I could potentially see it moving is like Twitter now with their livestreams.

我不确定你有没有见过，当有人进行直播时，他们的整个观众群体上方都会出现一条鲜红的横条，显示着‘正在直播’。

I'm not sure if you've actually seen any time someone does a livestream, their entire audience has a bright red bar on top of the Twitter screen saying, bloody blah, it's live streaming.

我能看到向直播倾斜的趋势，但不确定这是否适合产品发布。

I could see the shift towards live streaming, but unsure whether that makes sense for launches.

也许，在发布后进行后续跟进，是吸引注意力的另一种绝佳方式。

Maybe, like, post follow-up to launches is another great way to grab attention.

我很喜欢将视频作为核心组成部分这一点。

I love this in terms of video being a core component.

正如你所说，视频是发布活动的核心组成部分。

It's a core component of, as you said, launches.

二十万，七十万。

200, 700,000.

你把发布活动做得非常好。

You do launches really, really well.

当你思考如何让发布活动成功时，你认为做好发布活动最重要的经验是什么？

When you think about what you do to make them successful, what are your biggest lessons on how to do launches well?

每次我们推出主要产品或功能时，都会使用一份清单。

Every time we ship a major product or feature, we run into a checklist.

因此，我们有三个级别的发布活动。

And so we have three tiers of launches.

我们有一级发布。

We have tier one.

这是大型新模型或全新的产品线。

This is the big new model or the massive new product line.

我们有第二级，即客户会关注的重大功能。

We have tier two, which is like major feature that customers would care about.

我们还有第三级，基本上只是写入变更日志。

And we have tier three, which is basically just put on the change log.

第一级是我们对发布投入最多注意力的地方，通常由该产品的增长负责人主导。

Tier one is where we put the majority of our attention for the launches, and this is led by normally the growth lead for that particular product.

他们首先需要明确的是，我们到底为谁发布什么？

The first thing they need to work out is, like, what are we actually launching for who?

他们为什么真的在意？

Why did they really care?

我们将这些提炼为受众、关键绩效指标、想要传达的核心价值主张，然后转化为一致的宣传信息。

And we distill this down into audience, KPIs, the core value props you want to get across, and then we turn that into, like, what's the consistent messaging?

我们想要传达的简短语句是什么？

What are those short lines we want to get across?

所以选一个例子。

So choose an example.

我们推出了语音转文字功能，这是世界上最好的转录模型。

We launched speech to text, which is the world's best transcription model.

你可以这样说，然后它们会非常准确地转录出来。

So you can say stuff like this, and then they'll transcribe it super accurately.

我们希望传达的关键信息是，这是最准确的语音转文字模型。

And the key messaging we wanted to get across is it's the most accurate speech to text model.

它功能完备，支持说话人分离。

It's feature complete, so it does diarization.

它支持字符级时间戳。

It does character level time stamps.

它支持99种语言。

It supports 99 languages.

我们花了很多时间来精准打磨这些信息。

That's actually what we spend a lot of time on is really nailing that messaging.

我们能有多少条消息？

How many messages can we have?

如果我们想要最准确、最快、最便宜的，这要求是不是太高了？

So If we if we want most accurate, fastest, and cheapest, is that too much?

我们总是有一个主要的。

So we always have a primary one.

主要的那一个，你们会反复听到我、马蒂、整个团队以及我们所有宣传内容强调的是：最准确的语音转文字模型。

So the primary one which you'll hear me, Matti, the entire team, and all our messaging time and time again is the most accurate speech to text model.

然后还有次要的，就是我提到的那三个。

And then there's secondary ones, so the three that I've said.

我们会把这些核心信息转化为核心素材。

We then take these core messaging, and we turn those into the core assets.

我们总是从推文线程开始。

We always start with the tweet thread.

什么是推文线程？

What's the tweet thread?

这个核心钩子是什么？

What's that core hook?

我们首先要确保把这个做好。

That's what we make sure we nail first.

然后我们也会制作视频，与消息内容和推文线程相呼应。

And then we make the video as well, which corresponds with the messaging, with the tweet threads.

有时会有多个视频，但特别是对于一级产品，我们希望有一个出色的动态设计视频。

Sometimes there's multiple videos, but particularly for tier one, we want a fantastic motion design video.

我们通常会从这条推文线程开始。

We take normally that tweet thread.

我们还会撰写博客文章，特别是针对更技术性的发布。

We also create a blog post, particularly for the more technical launches.

接下来我们考虑的是分发。

And then the next thing we think about is distribution.

我们的方式是绝对在所有平台上交叉发布。

The way that we see it is we like to cross post absolutely everywhere.

所以我们会在X平台上发布，也会在LinkedIn上发布。

So we post on x, We post on LinkedIn.

我们会在Blue Sky上发布。

We post on Blue Sky.

我们会在Threads上发布。

We post on threads.

每一个渠道，包括Product Hunt、Reddit、Hacker News。

Every single channel, Product Hunt, Reddit, Hacker News.

要真实。

Be real.

我的意思是，以这样的速度，你简直是在往人群里扎啊，对吧？

I mean, at that at that rate, you're fucking going into the crowds, aren't you?

我给增长团队最重要的建议是：你必须大声宣传。

You have to the biggest advice I give to, like, growth people is, like, you need to be loud.

你必须在每一个渠道上都传达出去。

You need to, like, get it across every single channel.

然后我们在Slack中设置了一个专门的放大频道，整个团队都在里面。

And then we actually have an amplified channel in our Slack where the entire team's in.

当我们发布新产品时，我们会把所有不同平台的链接——推文线程、LinkedIn等——都发上去，然后其他人也会分享自己的评论和他们自己的帖子。

And when we do a launch, we post all the different links for the different tweet thread, the LinkedIn, and everyone else will then share their like, their comment, their do them their own threads.

我们的目标是那一天形成全方位的声量，传递核心信息。

And the idea is we want to surround sound for that day, getting that core messaging across.

然后我非常确定，社交算法会看到三十、四十个赞，没错。

And then I'm pretty certain the social algorithm see thirty, forty likes Yes.

在前五分钟内。

In the first five minutes

是的。

Yes.

然后就会想，哇。

And go like, wow.

这一定是优质内容。

This must be good content.

我们会把它推广给我们的更大受众。

We'll promote it to our larger audience.

百分之百。

100%.

有趣的是，当我跟新创始人交谈时，他们会说，哦，卢克。

And what's interesting is when I speak to new founders, they're like, oh, Luke.

但这对你来说很容易。

But this is easy for you.

你有200人的团队。

You have a 200 person team.

你有顶级投资者。

You have top investors.

你还有哈里这个朋友，他会分享你的内容。

You have Harry as a mate who will share your stuff.

而我会回他们的是，好吧。

And what I'd put back to them is like, okay.

如果你正准备发布产品，很可能你已经筹集了一些资金，有一些朋友，认识行业内的一些人，那就别不好意思。

Chances are if you're, like, getting to launch a product, you've raised a bit of money, you have some friends, you know a few people in the industry, you should be shameless.

我最近和一个人讨论过这个想法，我们觉得，不如从你的Gmail入手。

And I ran this through with someone recently, and we were like, let's take your Gmail.

把过去五年里你发过邮件的每一个人全都列出来。

Let's literally get every single person you have sent an email to in the last five years.

很好。

Great.

你现在就有了3000个人。

You've now got 3,000 people.

那你在Twitter上关注了谁？

Then who's following you on Twitter?

你在LinkedIn上和谁有联系？

Who are you connected with on LinkedIn?

我们手动逐个给他们发私信，为你的产品发布造势，因为只有这样，这些算法才会真正关注你的发布。

Let's just manually go through and DM all of them to boost your launch, and you need to give your launch a big boost for these algorithms to actually care about it.

我惊讶于人们竟然如此害怕开口提问。

I'm amazed by how nervous people are to ask, number one.

我惊讶于人们竟然如此害怕做那些无法规模化的事情。

I'm amazed by how nervous people are to do things that won't scale.

在我获得前五万名Twitter粉丝的过程中，我亲自给每个人发了私信，并建议他们也关注我们的通讯。

For the first 50,000 Twitter followers I got, I personally DM'd everyone, and I suggested that they follow our newsletter as well.

哇。

Wow.

但我当时是在跨渠道推广。

But I was cross advertising channels

是的。

Yeah.

百分之百。

100%.

针对五万人。

For 50,000.

哇。

Wow.

我打算

I'm going to

之后这么做。

do that after.

不。

No.

认真的，每天结束时花十五分钟，持续地交叉推广其他频道。

Seriously, like, at the end of every day, fifteen minutes, you just continuously cross promote other channels.

说实话，这就是我们新闻订阅量达到几十万的方式。

Honestly, it's how we got to several 100,000 on news.

对于可能不太懂的创始人来说，特雷夫，什么样的推文才算好？

For founders that are maybe not as versed, what makes a good tweet, Trev?

他们不应该做什么？

What should they not do?

你會怎麼建議我？

How would you advise me?

嗯。

Yeah.

所以這很簡單。

So it's pretty simple.

首先，要把第一個詞說對。

The first thing is, like, get the first word right.

如果你在發佈產品，就用「」或「我們很高興發佈」這樣的詞。

If you're doing a launch, use the word or introducing or we're excited to launch.

明確地讓大家知道你正在發佈一款新產品，介紹世界上最好的語音轉文字模型。

Make it really clear that you're launching a new product, introducing the world's best speech to text model.

這是第一句話。

That's the first line.

讓它簡單明瞭。

Make it simple.

一句话就能准确传达你发布的内容，并通过关键词进行标识。

One line gets across exactly what you're launching with that keyword which flags it.

然后留一个空格，接着使用项目符号列表或段落进一步详细说明，或许可以加入一些你希望传达的次要价值点，最后附上你花了大量时间制作的发布视频。

Then have a space and then do either a bullet point list or a paragraph going into a bit more detail, maybe some of these secondary value props you want to get across, and then attach the launch video, which you spent lots of time working on.

针对第一个。

To the first one.

针对第一个。

To the first one.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是你的第一条推文。

So that's then your first tweet.

然后你可以发布一个包含更多信息的推文线程，或许再添加一些补充视频。

Then you could do a thread going into more information, maybe adding supplementary videos.

而Twitter的运作方式是，当你发推时，出现在人们信息流中的将是第一条推文，其余的会被折叠起来，只有最后两条会显示。

And then the way that Twitter works is when you do a tweet, what will go out there and other people will see on their feeds will be the first tweet, then the others will actually be minimized, and then the last two.

所以你应该把行动号召和链接放在最后一推。

So you should put the call to action and the link in the very last tweet.

而且，实际上，你也应该把倒数第二推写得精彩些。

And, actually, you should make that second last tweet great too.

不要在第一推里放链接，因为埃隆·马斯克甚至说过，他们会对这样做的人主动降低排名。

Don't put the link in the first tweet because Elon Musk has even said they actively down rank people when they do that.

我们每期节目都会这么做。

We do them for every show.

是的。

Yes.

在这方面，这确实是一门科学。

And it's a real science in that respect.

在博客文章方面，人们会说：嘿。

On the blog post side, people are going, hey.

没人读博客。

No one reads blogs.

博客文章仍然有其价值。

There's still a point to blog posts.

是的。

Yeah.

百分之百。

100%.

主要有两点。

So two main points.

第一点是针对技术型受众。

The first one is for technical audiences.

你需要深入细节。

You need to go into the details.

你需要展示基准数据。

You need to show the benchmarks.

你需要稍微透露一下你是如何将它们整合在一起的秘诀。

You need to give a little bit the secret sauce of how you put it together.

深入这些技术细节。

Go into those technical details.

第二个是SEO。

And the second one is SEO.

很多人认为SEO已经死了，但其实并没有。

Lots of people think SEO is dead, but it's really not.

所以每次发布时，你都需要有一篇关键的博客文章或着陆页来推广，并获取所有外部链接，无论是来自媒体、其他人引用，还是社交媒体。

And so every time you do a launch, you want to have a key blog post or landing page that you push and you get all the backlinks too, whether that's across press, whether other people linking to it, whether from socials.

SEO并没有死。

SEO is not dead.

没错。

No.

两年到三年后还会吗？

Will it be in two to three years?

当我们看到用户来源的变化时，越来越多的人认为——就像几个月前Guillermo从Vercel说的，当时是一点五，现在变成了四点五。

When we see the shift in terms of users and where they come from, more and more, I think, you know, Guillermo from Vercel said it was one and a half, six months ago, and now it's four and a half.

两到三年后，你认为我们会看到SEO的影响力大幅下降吗？

In two to three years, do you think we will see a much reduced SEO presence?

关于SEO，有不同的SEO内容类型。

With SEO, there's different types of SEO content.

第一种是博客风格的内容。

The first one is blog style content.

这就是那种长篇大论、长篇幅的文章。

This is, you know, long words, long form articles.

我认为这类内容会随着时间推移逐渐消亡。

That I think will increasingly die over time.

但事实上，它现在还没死。

But actually, it's not dead yet.

如果你看看Zapier，他们超过70%的SEO流量仍然来自他们的博客。

If you look at Zapier, over 70% of their SEO traffic still goes to their blog.

这显然还没死。

That's definitely not dead yet.

但我认为这类内容会消失，因为你可以让ChatGPT给你一个非常出色的回答。

But I think will die because you'll be able to have chat g p c give you a really great response.

它们已经抓取并吸收了这些内容。

They will have scraped it, ingested it.

但我确信至少在未来五年内会保留下来的是工具页面。

But the part which I am confident will stick around for at least five years are tool pages.

举个例子，如果你搜索‘文本转语音西班牙语’，第一个结果就是‘11文本转语音西班牙语’，这是一个文本框，你可以输入任何西班牙语内容，选择语音，然后点击播放。

And so this is where, to give you an example, if you search text to speech Spanish, the first result will be 11 text to speech Spanish, which is a text box where you can type in any Spanish you want, choose a voice, click play.

而这类内容需要一些实际的工程工作来实现这个文本框。

And so that, like, requires some actual engineering work to make this text box.

我们对语音转文本也做了同样的事情。

We do the same with speech to text.

你创建这些微型工具，通常需要使用专有数据源或一些实际的工程开发，而这些大型语言模型要能动态生成完整页面，还需要相当长的时间。

You create these mini tools often with proprietary data sources or some actual engineering work, and that's going to be a while before these LLMs are, like, spinning up whole dynamic pages.

到那时，也许反而更好，因为它们某种程度上正在取代你的产品

And by that point, maybe even better off because they're kind of replacing your product on the

反正也要飞。

fly anyway.

你如何建议创始人通过微型工具来展示企业产品的价值？

How do you advise founders on mini tools to show the value of a product when it's actually an enterprise product?

这真的很难。

It's really difficult.

如果你有一个企业产品，是的。

If have, like, an enterprise product Yeah.

老实说，人们没有试用就不会购买。

And honestly, people won't buy without some sort of try.

但要投入资源去做这个微型工具，确实很困难。

But it's pretty hard to try and commit the resources to doing that mini tool.

是的。

Yeah.

你怎么看待这个问题？

How do you think about that?

这就是为什么我认为从一开始就应该雇佣一位专注于前端的增长工程师，让他们能够独立地构建这些小功能，并将这些价值点展示出来，让用户尽快体验到产品的价值。

This is why I think right at the start, you should hire a growth engineer that's front end focused that can independently be focused on building these and exposing these small bits of value out so that people can get and experience the value as quick as possible.

如果你今天访问Eleven Labs的主页，我们会提供一个文本框，你可以输入文字并播放语音，但我们的所有产品也都以这种小型文本框的形式呈现。

If you go to the Eleven Labs homepage today, we have one text box where you can type in text, play speech, but we also have all our products are in these little text boxes.

这些功能位于登录界面之外，用户无需登录即可试用。

These are outside of the login and that people can try.

所以我给你的建议是：不要把整个产品都展示出来。

So the challenge I give to you is don't expose your whole product.

不要把所有东西都免费赠送。

Don't give it all away for free.

但你能免费提供哪些小的价值点，让用户尽快体验到那种‘哇塞’的瞬间呢？

But what are these small bits of value that you could give away for free so people can experience that wow moment as quick as possible?

你提到过分发和在各个平台交叉发布的问题。

You said about distribution and cross posting everywhere.

是的。

Yeah.

蓝天和惊艳帖子。

Blue Sky and wow threads.

我的意思是，好吧。

I mean, okay.

我很高兴有人发这种内容。

I'm glad someone posts that.

关于这一点，我的问题是：我们是不是应该选择一两个渠道彻底做透，

My question to you on that is, should we not choose one or two channels to absolutely crush

和

and

而不是广撒网式地盲目投放？

focus on versus spray and pray?

两者都做。

Do both.

首先，选择你的受众所在的渠道。

So first of all, choose the channels where your audience are.

对我们来说，那就是X和LinkedIn。

So for us, that's x and LinkedIn.

确保这两个平台做得非常好。

Make sure those are really great.

但之后，也要在其他平台上重新发布，因为有些人在其他平台，比如趋势或Blue Sky上，他们就是喜欢这些平台，你也希望触达他们。

But then after, just repost it for the others because there are people on the other platforms who, for some reason, prefer Trends or Blue Sky, you want to reach them too.

而且，由于其他人忽视了这些渠道，你更有机会占据这些平台并建立自己的受众。

And, also, because other people are overlooking those channels, you have a much greater chance that you'll be able to own them and build an audience there.

X和LinkedIn上的受众是相同的还是不同的？

Is it the same audience on X and LinkedIn or different?

基本上是不同的。

Largely different.

我们把X主要视为面向创作者和开发者的平台。

We see X as mainly for our creator and developer.

我们把LinkedIn主要视为面向潜在未来员工、潜在合作伙伴和企业的平台。

We see LinkedIn mainly for our potential future employees, potential partners, and enterprises.

但我们撰写内容时会尝试兼顾两者。

But we write the content in a way which tries to cater towards both.

你们有做抖音吗？

Do you have TikTok?

你们觉得抖音是吗？

And do you think of TikTok as a Yes.

我们刚刚雇了第一位内部创作者，他的唯一工作就是为Eleven Labs制作抖音视频、YouTube视频、Instagram短视频和YouTube短视频。

And we've actually just hired our first in house creator whose only job is to create TikToks, YouTube videos, Instagram Shorts, YouTube Shorts for Eleven Labs.

我们雇用他的方式是：如果你在YouTube上搜索Eleven Labs，他的视频是排名最高的。

And the way we actually hired this guy is if you typed in Eleven Labs on YouTube, he had the most viewed video above us.

所以我们想，好吧。

And so we were like, okay.

他制作的内容非常出色。

He's creating fantastic content.

让我们直接雇用他，全力支持他，特别是针对这个创作者群体——拥有一个能以创作者身份与他们沟通的人，将极大推动增长。

Let's actually hire him, supercharge him, and particularly for this creator audience And having someone who can speak to them as a creator will really supercharge growth.

当你回顾分发和渠道策略时，你认为自己犯了什么错误？

When you look back at the distribution, the channel strategy, what mistake do you think you made?

我认为我们犯的错误是没有尽早招聘。

The mistake I think we made is not hiring early enough.

我们从一开始就拥有非常强大的产品市场契合度。

We had super strong PMF right from the start.

我们从一开始就拥有了有效的渠道，但我们没有专人专注于某些渠道。

We had channels working right from the start, but we didn't actually have anyone focused on certain channels.

例如，联盟营销，我们一年半前就设立了，现在每月带来的月经常性收入已达数万美元。

So for example, affiliates, we set up over a year and a half ago, and that now is bringing in over, you know, tens of thousands of dollars of MRR per month.

但这个系统是一年前半由一名工程师在一周内搭建的，之后就再没人碰过。

But this was set up a year and a half ago by one engineer in one week, and then no one's touched it since.

我们本该在看到初步成效后，既然整体上已经具备产品市场契合度，就安排一个人专门负责推动这个产品和这些关键指标，其他什么都不管，保持高度专注。

And what we should have done is once we've seen signs of life, given we already have PMF overall, staff one person who can focus on growing that one product and those one set of KPIs and nothing else, keep them laser focused.

所以，总的来说，我希望我们能更早地为更多渠道配备专职人员。

So, yeah, overall, I wish we had staffed up more channels with more dedicated people sooner.

当我们说一个渠道在运作时，这意味着什么？

When we think about a channel working, what does that mean?

我和我们的团队有过这样的讨论，因为我们在TikTok上并没有30万粉丝，嗯。

I had this conversation with our team because, you know, we have not I I think 300,000 followers on TikTok and Yeah.

每月有数百万的浏览量。

Millions of views a month.

老实说，这些流量回流到主产品线的转化率并不明确可追踪。

Honestly, the conversion back to the main pod, not clearly attributable.

是的。

Yeah.

可能确实存在，但无法明确追踪。

Maybe it's there, but not clearly attributable.

这算有效吗？

Is that working?

我觉得社交媒体渠道更难做。

I think social channels are tougher.

对于核心的绩效营销渠道，这一点非常明确。

For core performance marketing channels, it's very clear.

获客成本是否低于该用户的预测生命周期价值？

Is the CAC less than the predicted LTV of the person?

比如，对于联盟营销或其他付费营销，这一点非常清晰。

So for, say, affiliates for different paid marketing, that's super clear.

而对于自然流量尤其是企业营销，要衡量这种关系则要困难得多。

With organic and particularly enterprise marketing, trying to gauge that relationship is much harder overall.

因此，我的做法是需要从更长的时间维度来看，并允许一定程度的模糊归因。

And instead, the way I do it is you have to look over a longer time horizon and allow for more fuzzy attribution.

例如，我们即将在旧金山开展大规模的企业营销活动。

So for example, we're going to be doing a big enterprise marketing push in San Francisco.

我们会投放户外广告牌。

We're doing billboards.

我们还会做播客。

We're doing podcasts.

我们正在发送电子通讯。

We're doing newsletters.

我们正在开展线下活动。

We're doing events on the ground.

我们不会单独衡量任何一个渠道，而是会整体审视这场活动。

And we're not going to measure any one channel in isolation, but instead, we'll look over the campaign.

与纽约或西雅图等类似地区相比，该地区的潜在客户数量增长了多少？

What was the relative lift in number of leads in that geo compared to a comparable like New York or Seattle?

所以这是转化为美元的收入。

So it's converted dollars.

是该地区的网站访问量吗？

It's site visits in that geo?

是的。

Yeah.

你如何思考真正决定价值的北极星指标？

How do you think about North Star which actually determines value?

我们为市场营销确定的方向是，这是企业营销团队负责企业业务部分。

What we've landed on for the marketing so this is the enterprise marketing team with the enterprise parts of our business.

我们在那里确定的北极星指标是营销带来的销售合格线索数量。

What we've landed on as our North Star metric there is number of marketing sourced sales qualified leads.

营销团队识别出了一条线索。

Marketing has identified a lead.

有人注册了网络研讨会、邮件，甚至从产品页面注册了。

Someone signed up for a webinar or an email or even signed up from the product.

我们成功让他们与销售开发代表安排了一次通话，而这位代表也确认了。

We've managed to get them to book a call with an SDR, and then that SDR has said, yes.

这个人很不错。

This person's great.

因此，这就是我们的北极星指标，整个营销团队都在关注如何提升这个数字。

And so that's our North Star metric, and the entire marketing team is focused on how do we drive that number up.

网络研讨会。

Webinars.

是的。

Yes.

这仍然是个事儿。

That's still a thing.

这确实是个事儿。

It is a thing.

这让我想到那种客户支持电话，麦克风一直开着的那种。

It makes me think of, like, you know, the, like, kind of phones for you customer support with the microphone going on.

你好。

Hello.

我是格雷格。

This is Greg.

您已接入我们的网络研讨会。

You've reached your webinar.

嗯。

Yeah.

所以网络研讨会确实有效。

So webinars do definitely work.

网络研讨会的关键问题在于它的名字。

The key issue with webinars is the name webinars.

因此我认为，我们现在所做的本质上是一场关于增长的网络研讨会。

And so I would argue that what we're doing now is basically a webinar on growth.

我们可能唯一缺少的是：第一，我们没有进行直播。

The only thing that actually we're probably missing is like, one, we're not live streaming it.

第二，我们没有进行邮件收集。

Two, we're not doing email capture.

但你可以把这段播客内容重新加工，推送到各个不同的平台。

But then you can then take this podcast, and then you can repurpose it and push it on all the different platforms.

我认为OpenAI最近做了一件很聪明的事，他们称之为OpenAI学院，这实际上就是一个网络研讨会平台。

I think OpenAI did something quite smart recently where they called it OpenAI Academy, which is basically a webinar platform.

他们为企业和教育者制作视频，并进行邮件收集。

They're putting on videos for businesses or videos for educators, and they're doing email capture.

他们实际上是在做网络研讨会，但因为你称之为学院，并且专注于提供价值，我认为这种方式更容易被接受。

They're effectively doing webinars, but because you're calling it Academy and it's focused on giving value, I think it goes down a lot better.

所以，是的，我认为我们很快就会把 Eleven Labs 的网络研讨会重新命名。

So, yeah, I think we'll be rebranding Eleven Labs webinars to something else soon.

我要对刚才提到的一些话题提出一些大胆的观点。

I'm gonna throw out some bold statements on topics we mentioned.

你提到了从获客成本到客户终身价值。

You said cat to LTV.

是的。

Yes.

获客成本到客户终身价值这个指标重要吗？因为它如此不准确且瞬息万变？

Does cat to LTV matter because it's so inaccurate and transient?

原因是，你的获客成本会随着时间迅速波动，而当你扩展产品线时，客户终身价值确实会显著增长。

Reason being, your cats go up and down very quickly over time, and your LTVs, as you expand product lines Yes.

可能会大幅增长。

Can significantly expand.

我作为入门产品进来，突然间却用了四五个。

I come in as an entry product and suddenly I'm using four or five.

这真的重要吗？会不会误导你？

Does it really matter and can it not mislead you?

实际上，我们每天真正关注的指标和比率是获客成本与回收期，而不是获客成本与客户生命周期价值。

Actually, the day to day metric and ratio we're really thinking about is CAC to payback period rather than CAC to LTV.

我们会根据不同的产品线以及我们希望采取的激进程度设定不同的回收期，这些回收期大约在十二个月、二十四个月，甚至可能长达三十六个月。

We set different payback periods depending on which product line and how aggressive we want to be, but these vary between, say, twelve months, twenty four, maybe even thirty six months for that payback period.

那三十六个月是针对大型企业客户吗？

And the thirty six would be for the heavy enterprise?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

当你知道客户会持续留存，甚至可能签署多年合约时。

Where you know the customer is going to retain, then maybe even signing multiyear deals.

我们是这样设置的：每个不同的渠道都有一个营销负责人，他们都在关注这个比率。

And the way we set it up is each different channel has a marketing lead, and they're thinking about this ratio.

如果这个比率是正的，那就意味着他们应该尽快加大投入。

And if it's positive, that basically means they should be putting their foot on the gas as quickly as possible.

不过你说得对，随着时间推移，你可能能够更早地延长回本周期。

You're exactly right though that over time you may be able to increase your payback period sooner.

例如，你可以引入企业级产品，然后将你的创作者用户引导至企业产品。

So for example, you may layer in an enterprise product, and then you can sell your creators onto your enterprises.

我认为，无论是对其他公司还是对Eleven Labs来说，都应该设定这个目标。

The way I would think about this for other companies and as well as for Eleven Labs is you set this goal.

如果你的比率高于这个标准，而且比率表现优异，你就应该全力加速增长。

If you're above that ratio, if the ratio is looking great, you should absolutely be putting your foot on the pedal and be trying to grow as quickly as possible.

有些人会说：‘我们每周把绩效营销预算提高20%就好。’

Some people go, oh, we'll just raise our performance marketing spend by 20% a week.

不，这样不行。

Well, no.

抓住这个机会。

Like, take advantage of the opportunity.

尽快扩大规模。

Grow it as quick as you can.

另一方面，如果这个比例低于预期，你可以给自己更多自由，因为你可能已经押注于其发展路径，觉得没问题。

On the other side, if it's actually below, you could give yourself more freedom because maybe you've got a bet on the thesis of how it will play out, where still you're like, okay.

是的。

Yes.

这个产品在前两年是亏钱的，但我们愿意做这样的押注。

We are losing money over the first two years for this product, but that's a bet we want to make.

但事实上，如果你的营销表现非常出色——许多优秀的AI公司都是如此——那么这实际上只是明确地允许你尽可能快地扩张。

But, actually, if your marketing's going very well, which for lots of these great AI companies there are, then, actually, it's more just, like, clear permission to grow as quickly as you can.

客户获取成本是上升还是下降？

Do CACs go up or down over time?

当你想到它来自‘是的’的时候。

When you think about it being from Yeah.

你曾接触过不同的营销领域，品牌营销变得重要起来，口碑传播，你能看到社区中的病毒式传播。

Different purviews that you've had, brand marketing becomes a thing, word-of-mouth, you can see virality in communities.

人们可能会认为它会下降。

One would think it goes down.

但当你饱和了核心受众，转向一个更不明确的目标客户群体时，它可能会上升。

But then also you saturate your core audience and you move to a less defined ICP, maybe it goes up.

是的。

Yeah.

关于CAC随时间上升或下降，你有什么观察？

What have been your observations on cat going up or down over time?

对于特定渠道，它们确实往往会上升。

So for specific channels, they do tend to go up.

但当你从广义上看，并且在增加新渠道、提升病毒传播、改善激活率和付费转化率时，你确实可以让整体的混合CAC保持稳定。

But when you look at it broadly and as you're adding new channels, when you're increasing the virality, when you're improving your activation rate, your conversion to paid, yes, you can kind of get that overall blended cat to hopefully even just stay flat.

但正如你之前所说，因为你能够叠加企业级产品进行向上销售，或者我们实际上做了一个有趣的操作：我们叠加了一个消费者产品，这让我们能以极低的成本获取客户，然后用户可能会升级到创作者版甚至企业版。

But exactly as you said before, because you're able to layer in, say, enterprise products you can upsell to, or we actually have done this funky move of we've layered in a consumer product, which enables us to get the CAC incredibly cheap, and then people may move up to Creator or even Enterprise.

企业的未来会是通过消费者入口吗？

Is the future of Enterprise consumer entry?

我的意思是

And what I mean by that

正如你所说，归根结底，我们都忘了每个人都是消费者，每个大型企业用户在某个时刻也都是消费者。

is, to your point there, at the end of the day, we all forget that everyone is a consumer, that every big Enterprise user is a consumer at some point.

企业的未来会是通过消费者入口吗？

Is the future of Enterprise consumer entry?

我 вообще 很讨厌‘企业’这个词。

I actually really hate the word enterprise in general.

大胆。

Bold.

在Eleven Labs，有一段时间我们总说‘我们需要卖给企业’，但企业到底是谁？

For for a while within Eleven Labs, there was this phrase of, like, we need to sell to enterprises, but who are the enterprises?

我说，咱们一起干吧。

And I was like, let's work together.

让我们来明确他们具体是谁。

Let's refine who exactly they are.

我们基本上已经弄清楚了。

And we basically worked out.

他们通常是这些大公司的工程经理或产品负责人。

They're normally, like, engineering managers or product leads at these larger companies.

有时首席信息官或首席技术官也会参与其中。

Sometimes the CIOs or CTOs are involved too.

但第一步是，好吧。

But first step is like, okay.

让我们真正定义一下我们卖给谁。

Let's actually define who are we selling to.

然后你就会意识到，好吧。

And then you do realize, okay.

等等。

Wait.

他们与我们的开发者受众和开发者营销有大量重叠，也许并不需要做长篇白皮书和高管晚宴。

They have so much overlap with our developer audience and our developer marketing, and maybe it's not about doing long white papers and executive dinners.

也许更应该采取自下而上的方法。

Maybe it's actually more about this bottoms up approach.

但放眼全局，Eleven Labs 实际上确定的方向是：我们要快速增长。

But zooming out, the bit we've actually landed on at Eleven Labs is we want to grow super quickly.

我们希望尽可能与全球最优秀的企业合作。

We want to try and get and work with all the best companies in the world.

为什么不能两者兼顾呢？

Why not do both?

因此，我们组建了独立的团队。

And so what we've done is spin up separate teams.

我们有一个企业营销团队，专门专注于从上至下的方式。

So we have an enterprise marketing team, which is just focused on going in on the top.

他们在思考：如何获取这些由市场带来的销售线索？

They're like, how do I get these SQLs, which are marketing sourced?

他们在举办高管晚宴。

They're doing executive dinners.

他们在举办活动。

They're doing the events.

他们在举办网络研讨会，而你很喜欢这些。

They're doing the webinars, which you love.

所以他们在做ABM，也就是个性化 outreach，非常定制化。

So they're doing ABM, like personalized outreach, very tailored.

是的。

Yes.

非常定制化。

Very tailored.

而在另一端，我们有一个开发者团队，由开发者布道者组成，专注于这种大规模的知名度提升。

And then on the other end, we have a developer's team, which is developer advocates, which are focused on this much kind of broad scale awareness.

我们在举办黑客马拉松。

We're doing hackathons.

我们从底层开展各种活动。

We're doing different events from the bottoms up.

因此，它们的目标完全不同，但大致重叠的受众群体之间却能协同工作。

And so they have completely different goals, but kind of work in tandem with these roughly overlapping audiences.

你提到过要在广告牌和播客等渠道推广。

You mentioned to push in billboards and in podcasts and all these.

你觉得什么时候是进行品牌营销的最佳时机？

How do you think about when's the right time to do brand marketing?

理想情况下，你应该从一开始就进行品牌营销。

Ideally, you're doing it right from the start.

如果你想要打造一家大型公司，你希望人们能因为你的使命而加入你。

If you're trying to build a massive company, you want people to join you for your mission.

虽然随着时间推移，这种方式可能会发生变化，但在起步阶段，我真的很建议你与社区建立联系。

And now how that may look like over time they switch, but right at the start, I'd really be thinking about engaging with your community.

就像你之前说的，你给每一个关注你的推特用户发消息。

Like you said earlier, you messaging every single person on Twitter that follows you.

这就是你在打造自己的品牌。

That's you building your brand.

这就是你作为一个人被关联起来。

That's you as a person being related to.

所以，理想情况下，从一开始就由创始人亲自现身，保持真实，逐步建立起来。

So, ideally, you have right at the start, and it comes from the founder of them putting themselves out there, being authentic, then building it.

然后，是的，随着时间推移，你可以将这种做法扩展为不同的品牌宣传活动。

And then, yes, over time, you can scale that into different brand awareness campaigns.

我认为你只需要选择一个自己满意的支出比例。

And I think you just need to choose that ratio of spend, which you're happy with.

也许是20%，也许是70%。

Maybe that's 20%, maybe that's 70%.

我认为这取决于你的其他渠道运作得如何。

I think it depends how well your other channels are working.

你刚才提到创始人要亲自现身。

Said there about kind of founder putting themselves out there.

是的。

Yes.

创始人品牌今天有多重要？

How important is founder brand today?

我觉得这极其重要。

I think it's incredibly important.

但这也非常困难，而且很容易分散注意力。

It's also, though, super tough and very distracting.

这是一种承诺。

It's a commitment.

这正是人们没有意识到的。

That's what people don't recognize.

不是说我发一条帖子就行了。

It's not like I'll do a post.

不是的。

No.

这就像你每天都要发帖。

It's like you post every day.

你每天都要发帖。

You post every day.

你从LinkedIn帖子和X动态的点赞中获得多巴胺快感。

You're getting the dopamine of likes on your LinkedIn posts, likes on your x threads.

我认为这很有风险，因为你可能花了大量时间，却在优化错误的东西。

I think it's quite risky because you can spend all this time actually then optimizing for the wrong thing.

我们在Eleven Labs的思路是：哪些渠道能自然地引起创始人们的共鸣，让他们真正感到兴奋？

The way we think about it at eleven Labs, it's like what channels really naturally resonate with the founders and do they get really excited by?

因此，对我们来说，马蒂在大型演讲活动和对话式论坛上表现得非常出色，这就是他真正投入的方向。

And so for us, Matti is fantastic in person at large speaking events, at fireside chat, And so that's what he really leans into.

同样，他对在Twitter或X上活跃并不感兴趣。

Equally, he's not that excited about being active on Twitter or X.

他自然不会在这些平台上太活跃，这没关系。

He naturally isn't that active on those platforms, and that's fine.

我们的方式是，公司里有其他人负责活跃地发布内容。

And the way that we've done it is we basically kind of have other people within the company which are instead active and pushing.

所以我本人比较活跃。

So I'm quite active.

开发团队也很活跃。

The developer team's quite active.

我们通过那些真正让我们兴奋的渠道来传递公司使命。

And instead, we're pushing the company mission through channels we get really excited by.

我也一直认为，专注于一个渠道，并不意味着不能多渠道并行。

I also always think that just because you focus on one channel, said of that, doesn't mean you can't go multichannel with that.

所以我会说，嘿，我们怎么让视频编辑把他的每一场活动都制作成视频？

And so I would be like, hey, how do we get video editors to go to every single thing that he does?

让他每个月参加十场活动，然后在TikTok、Instagram、YouTube Shorts上大量发布Matti在不同活动中的讲话内容。

Get him speaking for, I don't know, 10 a month, say, and just fucking pummel TikTok, Instagram, YouTube shorts with Matti speaking at different events.

你可以这么做，但那样你就会不断看到自己在这些平台上走红。

You could do that, but you then constantly see yourself going virals on these channels.

也许你会收到一些负面评论，虽然大部分是正面的，但你仍然在公开露面。

Maybe you're getting negative comments, largely positive comments, but still putting yourself out there.

所以，如果你本身对这件事并不那么兴奋，它就会成为一个很大的干扰。

And so, actually, if you're not naturally that excited by it, it's a big distraction.

我看待初创公司的方式是它们的长期收益，十年、二十年的长期收益，因此你需要坚持这一点，同时也要认清：你个人真正热衷的是什么？

And the way I view startups is their long term gains, their ten year, twenty year long gains, and so you need to stay in that and also recognize, like, what do you personally get really excited by?

你相信不存在坏的宣传吗？

Do you believe that there's no such thing as bad press?

本质上，相关性才是最重要的。

Essentially, relevance is everything.

我认为确实存在坏的宣传，尤其是当你想向企业销售产品时。

I think there is such thing as bad press, particularly if you're trying to sell to enterprises.

这会是个糟糕的交易。

Deal would be bad.

是的。

Yeah.

他们处于一个艰难的境地。

Deal they're in a tough spot.

另一个很好的例子是，你有没有看到那家筹集了400万美元的公司？

Another good example is, have you seen this company which raised $4,000,000?

天哪。

Oh my god.

是啊，那场争斗。

The fight yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我亲眼看到了。

I saw it literally.

它叫罗伊什么的，筹集了530万美元。

What's it Roy something raised five points three

来自苏珊。

from Susan.

它叫什么名字？

What's it called?

它叫‘任何事都作弊’。

It's the cheat on anything.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以他们选择了‘任何事都作弊’。

So they've done gone for cheat on anything.

他们的创始人在营销上很有一套：他收到了亚马逊、Palantir 和谷歌的offer，然后告诉他们：等等，其实……

Their founder led marketing is him getting offers for Amazon, for Palantir, for Google, and then telling them actually, oh, wait.

所以我用我的工具作弊了。

So I cheated on it using my tool.

这带来了极佳的营销效果，但他如果真想向企业销售团队推销，却在自己身上贴了个大大的黑色X，让人不禁想：我真的能信任这个人吗？

And that gets fantastic marketing, but he's also posting a big black x on himself if he ever actually wants to sell to enterprise sales teams where you're like, oh, do I really trust this person?

你知道吗，我觉得这步棋挺冒险的。

You know, I think it's a risky move.

你这么认为吗？

Do you think so?

还是你觉得这只是打造品牌形象的一个不错的切入点？

Or do you think it's just a good entry point to build that brand?

因为，说真的，你知道吗？

Because, actually, do you know what?

六个月到一年后，当他身边有了经验丰富的销售代表，真正开始销售实际产品时，大家就会说：嘿。

In six to twelve months time when he's got experienced sales reps in there who are actually selling real products going, hey.

我们和Rippling合作，也和Eleven Labs合作，那时候你就可以摆脱这个标签了。

We work with Rippling and we work with Eleven Labs, you can get away from it.

也许吧。

Maybe.

但我认为，你品牌的核心必须是真实的，必须源于你真正相信的东西。

But I think the core of your brand needs to be authentic, and it needs to come from a place where, like, you really believe in.

每个人都会记住这家公司是帮助他们作弊通过各种考试的公司，这也没关系。

And everyone is going to remember that company as the one which helps you cheat on their different tests, which is fine.

如果他选择走这条路，好吧。

If he leans into, okay.

我想主打消费者市场，或者帮助人们解决日常生活中的问题，这完全可以。

I want to sell the more consumer type or help people in their day to day life, maybe that's absolutely fine.

但我觉得，如果你的目标是进行大规模的企业销售，希望被视为可信赖的合作伙伴——而这通常是关键差异点——那么这就更具风险了。

But I think if you're trying to do, like, large scale enterprise sales where you want to be seen as the trusted partner, which often you do and that's the differentiator, then I think it is a more risky play.

人们常常忘记改变一个标签有多难。

People often forget how difficult it

是让一个标签变得平静。

is to shift a tag being calm.

每个人都去那个冥想公司。

Everyone goes to the meditation company.

是的。

Yes.

而且这并不是他们提供的东西。

And it's like, that is not what they offer them.

他们真的努力摆脱这种标签。

They really try and move away from that.

当你因为某件事而广为人知时，要摆脱最初的标签是非常困难的。

And it's just very difficult when you become very well known for something to lose that original tagging.

所以我认为从一开始就要非常明确。

So I think you need to be really intentional right from the start.

不同的信息是什么？

What's the different messaging?

你希望打动谁？

Who want who do you want to resonate with?

你希望为谁发声？

Who do you want to stand for?

对于我们 Eleven Labs 来说，我们希望成为语音演员和大型企业领域中最值得信赖的参与者。

And for us at Eleven Labs, we want to be the super trusted player in the space, both for voice actors and the large enterprises.

你如何看待竞争？你会给创始人什么样的竞争建议？

How do you think about competition, and how do you advise founders on competition?

我认为这是一种很好的方式，可以与其他品牌形成差异化定位。

I think it's a great way to counter position against other brands.

你进入的几乎每一个领域，都会存在现有的大型玩家。

Pretty much every space you go into, there will be existing large players.

有几种不同的策略是有效的。

There's a couple of different options which works.

Y Combinator 的那种方法通常非常有效，就是完全忽略他们，戴上护目镜，直接与客户沟通，打造一款卓越的产品。

The y c one approach, often works really well, is basically just kind of ignore them, put on your blinkers, speak to your customers, make an incredible product.

我认为这对产品开发来说非常明智，但我觉得 Ramp 针对 Brex 的差异化定位策略，是一种极其出色的营销手段，这

I think that's really smart for product development, but I think what Ramp has done with their counter positioning against Brex is just genius marketing, which

你刚才两次提到了‘差异化定位’。

So you said counter positioning twice.