20Sales：揭秘Figma十亿美元年收入引擎｜为何我们没有客户成功或SDR团队｜与Figma首席营收官Shaunt Voskanian探讨为何我不相信销售配额

我能问一下吗，如果你没有配额或者不相信配额，你怎么考虑设定紧迫感和激励呢？

Can I ask, if don't have quota or don't believe in quota, how do you think about setting urgency, setting incentives?

我相信配额。

I believe in quotas.

我们有配额。

We have quotas.

我的意思是，我不一定认为你通过确保分配足够的配额来覆盖目标，就能完全降低一年的风险。

What I'm saying is I don't necessarily believe you completely de risk your year by making sure that you've dished out enough quota to cover your target.

我觉得那是一种虚假的安心感。

I think that's a bit of a false sense of comfort.

我相信的是，对于配额，你要试着确定你想达成什么目标。

What I believe is that with quotas, you want to try to determine what are you trying to accomplish.

我的看法是，没有一个单一的答案。

And the way I would think about it is I don't think there's a single answer.

而且我觉得即使在Figma，我们也在不断演变。

And I think even at Figma, we've evolved.

在Figma早期，可能跟现在eleven Labs的情况差不多，主要工作就是把这个产品做好，让客户非常满意，对产品了如指掌，支持好他们，然后自然就会形成病毒式传播。

In the early days of Figma, which may be similar to what's happening at eleven Labs right now, the job was primarily take this product, make your customer really happy, know the product really, really well, support them, and then viral expansion would happen.

说实话，如果你想想这个工作本身，其实有相当大一部分人都可能胜任。

And frankly, if you think about the job to be done, there is a pretty wide population of people that could likely do it.

如果他们进来之后愿意学习、对产品上心，等等，那就是另一回事了。

If they come in and they care about learning and the product, etcetera, that's one thing.

所以如果你做的是这种业务，你就得想想，做这个工作该得到什么回报？

And so if you have that business, you have to think about what is the reward for that?

能胜任这个工作的人有多少？

What is the population of people that you can do that job?

哥们，这工作是不是挺轻松的？

Dude, is that is that job not quite easy?

你基本上就是个接单的。

You're essentially an order taker.

当客户主动从你手里抢产品，急着要用的时候，确实挺容易的。

When people are pulling the product out of your hands and desperate to use it, kind of easy.

不是吧？

No?

我是说，我觉得这里面有些地方还是挺难的。

I mean, I I think there's things about it that are hard.

我不想说这很容易，但我更倾向于这样想：如果我们把人招进来，培训他们，他们有合适的性格，愿意学习，那有多少人可能做得了这件事？

I don't wanna say it's easy, but I think the way I think about it more is, like, how many people out there could probably do it if we brought them in, trained them, and they had the right personality, they had the willingness to learn?

我觉得不需要有二十年的销售经验才能搞清楚怎么做，即使这里面有些挑战。

I think about it as don't need to have twenty years of sales experience to figure out how to do that, even if there's things about it that are challenging.

我不想贬低这份工作。

I don't want to diminish what the job is.

但在那种情况下，你可能更关注的是提升业务的效率。

But I think in that type of situation, you're probably focused more on driving efficiency in the business.

我们现在所处的阶段，特别是那种销售主导的增长模式，也就是中端市场和企业级战略客户，我们要求人们做的事情，就是你刚才听到我听到客户谈论带来洞察和培养支持者时那么兴奋的那些事情，那是战略性的工作。

Where we are right now, in that SLG motion in particular, which is, again, mid market enterprise strat, what we're asking people to do, the stuff you just heard me get so warm and fuzzy about when I heard customers talk about in terms of bringing insights and building champions, That is strategic work.

你需要那些真正理解企业如何运作的人，他们不仅真正了解产品，还了解我们所处的市场环境，他们能够进行项目管理，建立这些关系，带来洞察，管理复杂的多方利益相关者的交易，这是艰难的工作，而且是非常非常战略性的工作。

You need people who can really understand how businesses operate, who really understand not only the product but the landscape that we're operating in, who are able to PG and build these relationships, bring these insights, manage complex multi stakeholder deals, that is hard work, and it's very, very strategic work.

所以我们现在在Figma的理念正好相反，我们希望设定非常有挑战性但相对容易达成的配额，相比行业标准来说，因为工作难度大且具有战略性，我们真的想奖励那些做出出色工作的人。

So our philosophy now at Figma is kind of the opposite, which is we want to have really aggressive, as in relatively easy quotas compared to what's out there in industry standard, because the work is hard and it's strategic, and we wanna really reward people that are doing that great work.

我们也意识到，能够胜任这项工作的人数量较少。

And we also realize the population of people that are capable of doing it is smaller.

对吧？

Right?

他们需要更多的经验。

They need more experience.

他们需要特定的素质和特质。

They need certain qualities and attributes.

所以，我觉得Eleven Labs现在做的可能非常适合他们。

So again, I think what eleven Labs is doing is probably perfect for them.

我现在处于另一个极端，我希望人们觉得Figma是一个可以进来做这种艰难的战略性工作、真正为客户创造价值的地方，然后你能得到公开的回报。

I'm in the opposite side of the spectrum right now, where it's like, I want people to feel like Figma's a place where you can come in, you can do this hard strategic work that's really driving value for your customers, and then you can be outwardly rewarded by it.

所以，这里一个普通的企业级销售代表的配额可能是他们OTE的三到四倍，我们对此感到满意。

And so an average enterprise rep here might have three to four x their OTE for a quota, and we're happy with that.

你可以找一个卖过那么大合同的人，或者一个在你解决的行业问题领域里工作过的人。

You can have someone who's sold that size of contract before or who's worked in or around the industry problem area that you solve.

但你只能选一个。

But you can only have one.

你会选哪个，为什么？

Which one do you have and why?

如果只能从这两个里选，我会选那个有做大单经验的人。

If those are the two options to choose from, I would take the person with the experience doing the deal.

因为我觉得行业经验是可以教给那些有学习意愿和好奇心的人的。

Because I think the industry experience you can teach to the person who's got the right willingness to learn and the curiosity.

当然，你得确保那个人具备这些特质，并且要通过测试来验证。

And obviously, you need to make sure you have that in a person and you test for it.

我有点假设，在这两个选择里，做过大单的人不是靠运气碰上的。

I'm kind of making a bit of an assumption that with those two choices, the person who's done the really big deal hasn't just got a bluebird.

对吧？

Right?

他们得管理多方利益相关者，经历漫长的销售周期，要培养很多支持者，还得接触到最终决策者。

That they've managed multi stakeholder, long sales cycles, have to build a lot of champions, have to get to EVs.

他们很可能在用类似Calm这样的工具，也在用Medic，对这些概念都很熟悉。

They're likely leveraging something like Calm, and they're using Medic, and they're familiar with these concepts.

我觉得要真正擅长这个，需要花时间建立更多的信心。

There's a lot more confidence that I think that needs to be built over time for people to be really good at that.

而且我觉得，一般来说，聪明的人能在更短的时间内学会行业和领域知识。

And I think, generally speaking, smart people can learn industries and landscapes in a shorter period of time.

所以如果只有这两个选择，我可能会选那个有交易经验的人。

If So those are my two only choices, I would probably take the person who's got the deal experience.

我们现在正在招人。

We're running a process now for hiring people.

你招销售代表时看重的东西，随着时间有什么变化？

How has what you looked for in sales reps changed over time?

说实话，我觉得变化不大。

I don't know that it's changed that much, to be honest with you.

我的意思是，首先，我觉得要看简历上写的东西，这个确实很重要。

I mean, the first thing, there is, I think, what you see on paper, and I think that matters.

而且我觉得，我越来越明确自己在找什么、不找什么了。

And I think increasingly, I've become more opinionated on what I'm looking for there and what I'm not.

我得承认，有些人不同意我的看法。

I I have to admit, some people don't agree with this.

我通常对那种跳槽特别频繁的人，第一反应就很强烈，你懂的，就是看简历的时候。

I have a usually a pretty visceral reaction to people who are super jumpy, you know, in terms of a a resume.

说到跳槽频繁，我知道这听起来不太好，但就是那种一年、一年、一年的。

And when we say super jumpy, I know it sounds awful, but this is, like, one year, one year, one year.

对。

Exactly.

比如，这里待十二个月，那里待十八个月，又换个地方待十二个月。

Like, twelve months here, eighteen months here, twelve months there.

有很多理由让我应该对这种情况更开放一些，这些我都明白。

There's so many reasons why people would encourage me to have more of an open mind for it, and I get all of that.

但一般来说，当你大规模做这件事的时候，我我

But generally speaking, when you're doing this at scale I I

不知道，乔。

don't know, Joe.

我觉得这完全是胡说八道。

I think it's total bullshit.

如果你已经做过四次了。

You if you've done it four times.

对。

Right.

这说明

It's saying

一些问题。

something.

是的。

Yeah.

一次的话，可能是文化，可能是家庭，可能是别的什么原因。

Once, it could be culture, it could be family, it could be whatever.

但四次呢？

But four times?

对。

Yep.

所以，我的意思是，你看。

So, I mean, look.

当你跟人交谈的时候，很多都是显而易见的东西。

Then when you're talking to someone, it's a lot of the obvious things.

对吧？

Right?

你能从他们身上看出他们有毅力，愿意坚持下去吗？

Can you learn from them that they have the grit, that they are willing to persevere?

这对我来说非常重要。

That's a really important one for me.

你怎么看出来的？

How do you tell?

天哪。

Oh, God.

这太难了。

It's so hard.

我也不知道。

I don't know.

就是

It's

真的很难。

really hard.

我觉得丹会告诉你，而且我记得他跟你聊的时候也提过，他特别想了解一个人的完整经历，从上学时候开始，看他们是怎么做决定的。

I think what Dan would tell you, and I think he mentioned it when he spoke to you, is he really wants to get the full history of the person kind of going back to school days and how they made their decisions.

我有时候也会这么做。

I will do that from time to time.

我并不是每次都这么做。

I don't always do it.

说实话，在这方面，最能说明问题的是简历。

Frankly, the thing that tells me the most on that front is the the resume.

你知道，看看他们待过的地方，了解一下那些地方在他们任职期间的发展轨迹。

You know, looking at the places they were and having a sense of, like, the arcs of those places when they were there.

这个人是在追逐容易得到的东西，还是真的在坚持某件事，并且把一个不成功的事情做成功了？

Is this someone who was just chasing something that was easy, or were they really actually sticking with something and making success out of something that wasn't successful?

我觉得这是很重要的一点。

I think that's a big part of it.

甚至你可以设计一个面试流程，强迫候选人展现出坚持到底的能力。

Even you can create a process that forces perseverance through it in terms of an interview process.

所以我们总是在最后给候选人一个挑战或练习，这需要他们花力气去了解我们业务的一些情况，同时也要展示出他们在发现需求方面的基本销售技巧。

So we always make people a challenge or an exercise at the end that requires some heavy lifting in terms of learning a bit about our business, but also showing off your basic sales skills around discovery.

所以我觉得这也是一种方法。

So I think that's a way to do it too.

但这确实很难。

But it is hard.

确实很难。

It's hard.

那个挑战或练习是什么？

What the challenge or exercise?

是带回家做的作业吗？

Is it a take home assignment

对，是带回家做的作业。

for a It's take home assignment.

我们随着时间一直在改进它。

We've evolved it over time.

但它有点像发现演示和展示的结合。

But it's kind of a combination of disco demo.

基本上就是我们想给人们一个用例，一个案例研究。

It's basically like we want to give people a use case, a case study.

你要去跟这个客户做推销。

You're gonna go pitch to this customer.

这里有一些关于他们的信息。

Here is some information about them.

去了解一下他们。

Learn about them.

然后做好准备，主导对话，做一些需求挖掘，接着再稍微进入产品，给我们展示一个你觉得有意思的快速工作流程。

And come in prepared to lead a conversation, do some discovery, and then turn around and get in the product a little bit show us a quick workflow that you think would be interesting.

就我个人而言，我其实更关注他们在需求挖掘方面的表现，因为我觉得要求一个人只玩几天产品就能做出惊艳的演示，可能有点不太公平。

Personally, I'm much more interested in how they do, frankly, on the discovery side of that because I think it's probably a little bit unfair to expect someone to be doing this amazing demo of your product with just a few days of playing around with it.

但我确实觉得产品部分我们保留了下来，因为它能体现一种坚持不懈的精神。

But I do think actually the product piece we've kept in there, because it does show an element of perseverance.

如果有人真的愿意花时间去学一点产品，我觉得这很能说明问题。

If someone is actually willing to spend the time to learn a little bit of it, I think it's telling.

而他们处理需求挖掘的方式，我觉得能很大程度上反映他们是否真正有好奇心，以及是否具备这些能力。

And then the way they approach the discovery part, I think, tells a lot around, you know, their ability to actually be curious and do all of those things.

好的。

Okay.

所以我们真的对这个候选人印象深刻，我和你都是。

So we're really impressed with this candidate, me and you.

我们觉得，太好了。

And we're thinking, great.

我们应该录用他们。

We should hire them.

然后我们进入录用阶段。

And we move to office stage.

在录用阶段，有没有什么让你对潜在销售人选感到亮绿灯或红灯的？

Is there anything in the offer stage that gives you green lights or red lights around a potential sales hire?

我总会做的一件事就是背景调查。

One of the things that I always try to do is back channel.

我觉得这有点超出你问的问题，但我觉得在流程之外获取信号，某种程度上，是你能得到的最有价值的见解。

And I think that's a little bit outside of the question you're asking, but I think getting signals outside of the process in some ways, I think are the most valuable insights that you can get on someone.

在offer阶段，你看，有些人天生就会讨价还价。

I think on the offer stage itself, look, you have some people who are gonna naturally negotiate.

有些人不会，我也不会在这方面做太强的判断，因为我其实觉得，很多时候不讨价还价的人，是因为招聘经理和招聘人员已经把我们的定位和offer做得很好，让他们真的就是很开心地接受。

You're gonna have people who are not I I don't necessarily make strong judgments there because I actually think, oftentimes the person who's not negotiating is not negotiating at the end because the hiring manager, the recruiter have done a good job of positioning ourselves and our offer in a way that makes them really just happy to jump in and take it.

在那个阶段，我最看重的是这个人必须全身心投入。

The biggest thing I'm looking for at that point is someone's got to be all in.

他们必须非常兴奋地加入。

They have to be really excited to come on board.

而且，我理解人们有选择，我完全尊重同时和多家公司走流程的做法。

And look, I understand people have choice, and I fully respect going through a process with multiple companies.

但如果经过和Figma的整个流程，花了几周时间做了所有这些工作，你最后不是那种“好吧”的态度。

But if at the end of a process with Figma, spending a couple of weeks doing all of this work, if you're not like, All right.

我决定了。

I'm in.

我想做这个，那对我来说就有点黄灯了。

I want to do this, it tends to be a little bit of a yellow flag for me.

如果他们积极试图拿你和另一家公司比较，我就会紧张，因为我们见过一些这样招进来的人。

If they're actively trying to pit you against another company, I just get nervous because we've seen some people who we've hired like that.

然后一旦遇到困难，或者他们没有达到预期的初期成功，或者那家他们可能没告诉你但其实更心仪的公司回头给了更好的或不同的offer，他们就会离开。

And then as soon as things are tough or they didn't have the initial success they expected or that other company that maybe they didn't tell you but they're actually more excited about came back with a better offer or a different offer, they leave.

所以，在招聘过程中，你想做多少调查就做多少。

And so do all the investigation you want to do during the process.

但到最后，双方都应该觉得对这个候选人全力以赴。

But then by the end, both sides should feel like they're all in on this candidate.

当你需要快速扩充销售团队的招聘计划时，你会怎么做？

What do you do when you have to ramp a sales team hiring plan fast?

是快速填满职位，果断淘汰，决策迅速更好？

Is it better to fill seats and bluntly get rid fast and be quick with decisions?

还是慢慢来，冒着完不成招聘计划的风险更好？

Or is it better to go slow and miss hiring plan?

我觉得在这两个选择之间，我宁愿慢慢来，冒着可能完不成招聘计划的风险。

I think it's between those two choices, I would prefer to go slow and risk potentially missing the hiring plan.

因为如果你招错了人，不管动作多快，在我看来都是浪费时间。

Because if you make that wrong hire, it doesn't matter how fast you move, you've cost yourself time, in my opinion.

你看，这是个平衡。

Look, it's a balance.

但说到底，如果有人跑来跟我说，嘿，我知道这个空缺职位我已经拖了三个月了。

But look, at the end of the day, if someone comes to me and they're like, Hey, I know I've been sitting on this open head count for three months.

我有人选。

I have someone.

但我对他们不太满意。

I'm not that excited about them.

我觉得他们也许能慢慢成长为一个还不错的B级员工。

I think they could maybe grow into, like, a solid b player.

我绝不会说招那个人。

I'm never gonna say hire that person.

我就是不会这么做，哪怕会耽误招聘计划。

I'm just not going to do it, even if it risks the hiring plan.

我昨天见了一个创始人，他们打算在未来十二个月内把销售团队增加两百人。

I met a founder yesterday, they were increasing their sales team by 200 reps in the next twelve months.

我当时就问，说实话，你觉得这里面能有多少是好的？

And I was just like, honestly, how many do you think will be good?

他说，大概二十个吧。

And he was like, probably 20.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这跟认命去招那种平庸的选手还是有点不一样的。

I think it's slightly different than resigning yourself to hiring that BRC player.

我觉得这是面对现实，你可以建立最好的流程，可以有最好的直觉。

I think it's facing the reality that you can build the best process, you can have the best instincts.

但我还是回到我之前开的那个小玩笑，那就是在面试过程中真正判断一个人是否优秀，其实真的非常难。

And I still come back to the little joke I made earlier, which is really figuring out if someone's great in an interview process is actually freaking hard.

你得明白，把人招进来只是工作的一部分。

You have to realize that only part of the job is getting the person in.

那才是真正开始的时候，你得弄清楚，你招的人能不能成长、能不能成功。

That's when it actually it really starts, where you have to figure out, do you have someone who's going to be able to grow and be successful?

还是说你招错了人，得想办法处理这个问题？

Or did you make a wrong hire, and do you have to do something about it?

而且我觉得事情并不总是那么简单，非黑即白，不是招对了就是招错了。

And I also think that it's not always as simple as right hire, wrong hire.

我其实觉得大多数人都是有潜力的。

I actually think most people have the potential in them.

有些人确实没有，你可能会招错一些人。

Some don't, and you might make some mishires.

但我觉得很多人都是有潜力的。

But a lot of people, I think, have potential.

而且有很多因素都会影响他们最终能不能成功。

And there's so many factors that actually contribute to, are they going to be successful or not?

他们的领导有多优秀？

How great is their leader?

赋能做得怎么样？

How great is the enablement?

你实际上给了他们多少机会？

How much of a chance did you actually give them?

我有些员工已经上了绩效改进计划。

I've got people who've gone on plan.

我想到的这个人，其实是我上一家公司的，他上了绩效改进计划后确实很挣扎，但我们一直在关注他的所有表现。

The person I'm thinking of actually from my last company went on a performance plan and was really struggling, but we kept looking at all of their inputs.

他做了很多很棒的事情，我们就说，咱们就针对那些有差距的地方进行辅导。

There were so many great things that they were doing, and we said, Let's focus on just coaching around the areas that are gaps.

然后他就顺利走出了计划。

And came off of it.

我早就离开了。

I'm long gone.

那个人还在那里。

That person is still there.

多次晋升。

Multiple promotions.

是他们最成功的销售代表之一。

One of their most successful reps.

所以我觉得这不仅仅是招对人还是招错人的问题。

So I actually think that it's not as simple as, did you hire the right person or the wrong person?

而是你有没有把他们放在一个能成功的环境里，并且有没有真正让他们为正确的事情负责。

But did you put them in an environment where they can succeed, and are you actually holding them accountable to the right things?

我能问你一下，你现在的销售团队有多大吗？

Can I ask you, how big is your sales team today?

整个组织大概有500人左右。

We're probably pushing 500 in my whole org.

这不仅仅是背销售指标的人，还包括一些支持人员等等，对。

That's not just sales quota carriers, but if you include some of the supporting resources, etcetera, yeah.

未来的销售团队会更大还是更小？

Will sales teams be larger or smaller in the future?

他们是不是在逼你提高效率？

Is they're pushing you to be more efficient?

没有。

No.

我觉得我们反而在往相反的方向走。

I think we're kind of going the opposite.

说实话，我们早期谈了很多关于效率的问题，但现在我觉得，还能再怎么提高效率呢？

Truly, we talked a lot about efficiency in our early days, and I think now like, how much more efficient can you get?

对吧？

Right?

你有五十万客户要支持，大概也就三百个销售代表在扛指标，具体数字我也不确定。

You've got a half million customers you're trying to support with, I don't know, 300 quota carrying reps, whatever the number is.

其实你们已经非常高效了。

Like, you're pretty freaking efficient already.

所以我觉得这可能是Figma特有的一种情况，对我来说，我在推动增加销售人手，Dylan也同意，这样我们可以和客户做更多战略性的工作，而且这些工作确实带来了很好的成果。

So I think this might be like a unique Figma thing that for us, I'm pushing, and Dylan is on board with more headcount in sales to do more of this strategic work with customers that we really are seeing great results from.

我觉得我们会继续在销售团队的人员上加大投入。

I think we're going to continue investing in sales headcount.

回到招聘流程，当你招错人的时候，你当时没看到什么，现在希望自己能看到？

Going back to the hiring process, when you've made a mishire, what did you not see that you wish you'd seen?

对我来说，一个例子就是，当候选人一直跟我强调职位，想要更高的头衔时，我总是会反驳回去。

Like for me, one is like when I'm constantly pushed by the candidate on role and they want an increased title, And I always push it to back.

我会想，哦，他们很聪明。

I'm like, oh, they're brilliant.

所以他们当然想当个X。

So of course they want to be a X.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这总是问题所在，而且最后总是以糟糕的结局收场。

It's always the problem, and it always ends badly.

那你呢？

What's yours?

我觉得只要是那种表现，就说明他是为了钱而不是为了使命。

I think it's anything like that that suggests mercenary versus missionary.

而且你看。

And look.

我们都是做销售的。

We're all in sales.

其实每个人心里都有点唯利是图。

Like, there's little mercenary in all of us.

这个我理解。

And I get it.

从某种程度上说，我们就是做销售的。

In some ways, we're in sales.

这算是这个职业的要求吧。

This is kind of what the profession calls for.

但这些年我手下最优秀的一些人，他们首先想的并不是钱。

But it's some of my best people over the years where money wasn't the first thing that they were thinking about.

不过，职业发展、学习和成长，那就不一样了。

Now, career growth, learning and development, different.

对我来说，这两者是非常不同的。

That's very, very different to me.

但我认为最优秀的人其实明白，如果你优先考虑这些，钱自然会来。

But I think the best people actually know that if you're prioritizing those things, the money comes.

而且我觉得，过去十年我身边那些收入最高的人，并不是那些一心想着“我得把税表上的数字最大化”的人。

And I think, in fact, some of the people who've been the best earners that I've been around in the past ten years, they haven't been the ones that were focused on, I gotta maximize my W2.

事实上，我见过有些人，当他们一味追求这个的时候，结果反而往反方向发展了。

And in fact, I've seen people who, when they're chasing that, it goes the other direction.

所以，这大概就是我的答案。

So, that probably is my answer.

我觉得需要有对成长、职业加速、学习发展、协作的热情，就是那些想要不断进步的人。

I think there needs to be a passion for growth, for career acceleration, for learning development, for collaboration, people who want to just get better.

我觉得成长心态是最重要的。

The growth mindset, I think, is the biggest thing.

所以，如果人们太关注那些不代表成长的东西，而更关注个人和眼前的事情，那对我来说就是一个警示信号。

And so, if people are too focused on things that aren't suggestive of growth and is more focused on the individual and this point in time thing, that's a that's a yellow flag for me.

所以我们招了这个人，现在该让他们上手了。

So we made this hire, and it's time for them to ramp.

而我是个创始人。

And I'm a I'm a founder.

你是我公司的天使投资人。

You're an angel investor in my company.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

你可能刚把钱烧了。

You've just probably burnt your money.

但请跟我一起走这条路。

But go with me on this journey.

我该怎么有效地让新销售快速上手？

How do I ramp new reps effectively?

有效地？

Effectively?

带我进入一个企业销售代表的工作，给我看看他们的入职培训。

Take Take me me into to an an enterprise enterprise rep rep and and give me their onboarding.

我觉得对于企业销售代表来说，我们想尽快做的事情之一，甚至在我们教他们所有产品知识和销售技巧之前——这些他们可能已经具备一些——我们想让他们尽快进入他们的客户和区域。

I think for an enterprise rep, one of the things we wanna do is kind of as quickly as possible, even before we teach them all the product stuff and the sales skills, which hopefully they're bringing some with them, we kind of want to get them into their account and their territory.

第一件事，就是把他们扔进火里，给他们一两个大客户，这些客户花费很多。

First thing, kind of throw them into the fire on you've got one or two accounts, and these are accounts that are spending a lot.

有太多工作要做。

There's so much work to be done.

在你来之前，很可能有另一个销售代表在负责，或者经理或总监在跟他们沟通。

Before you came in, likely there was another rep that was working on it, or the manager or director is talking to them.

让我们让你参与进来。

Let's get you engaged.

咱们先让他们去建立关系，了解那个业务。

Let's just get you building relationships and learning that business.

然后，我觉得过几周之后，他们熟悉了，拿到了电脑，知道自己负责哪些客户，可能也旁听了几通电话，这时候我们就该给他们安排正式的入职培训了。

And then, I would say, after a couple of weeks, they've gone through, they've got their laptop, they understand what account they have, they've maybe been on a few calls where they've listened in, now we want to get them into a proper onboarding.

我们考虑的方式是，这个销售要胜任工作，需要知道哪些东西？

And the way we think about that is, what are the things that this rep needs to know to be really good at their job?

比如一个战略客户销售，他们得对行业格局非常了解。

A strat rep, in this example, they better understand the landscape really well.

所以他们当然要懂我们的产品，但更重要的是，要了解我们生态圈里技术领域正在发生什么。

So they need to know the product, obviously, in our platform, but even more so, what is happening in tech around our ecosystem?

你会为他们制定一个操作手册吗？

Do you create a playbook for them on that?

是不是就像，这里有一堆资料文件。

Is it like, here's a file of flats.

自己去学吧。

Go learn it.

这是

This is

说实话，我们现在正在重新构建这个。

To be honest with you, we're rebuilding this right now.

我们现在讨论的这个，我们正在逐步推出。

What we're talking about right now, we're rolling out.

我们实际上这周就做了。

We actually did this week.

我们正在对新版本进行软启动。

We're doing our soft launch of the new version of it.

但这就是我们努力的方向。

But that is what we are striving toward.

这很像我们也在转向课堂式、面对面的培训。

It's very much like a we're also moving to classroom style, in person.

在疫情期间，我们有点偏离了这种方式。

And in the COVID days, we kinda got away from that.

但我们要回到课堂式的教学方式。

But we're going back to classroom style.

我们要恢复线下授课。

We're going back to in person.

我们会把整个组织里各个领域的意见领袖都请过来。

We're bringing in the thought leaders across the organization, across these different pillars.

而且，我们肯定会让他们了解当前科技生态系统的动态。

And, absolutely, we're gonna educate them on this is what's happening in the tech ecosystem.

这些是客户可能会考虑使用的不同供应商。

These are the different players that your customers are going to be thinking about potentially using.

这是我们在这一对话中的定位。

Here's our positioning in that conversation.

这是我们最优秀的客户正在做的事情。

Here is what our best customers are doing.

这些是你需要了解的产品要点。

Here are the things you need to understand about the product.

然后，当然，这是我们的销售流程。

And then, of course, here is our sales process.

他们需要从头到尾了解我们的销售流程，包括过程中可用的所有资源，我们将为他们做的所有事情，比如管道审查、预测电话，以及我们建立的运营节奏。

They need to understand our sales process, beginning to end, all of the resources that are available to them along the way, all of the things that we're going to do to help them, pipeline reviews, forecast calls, the operating rhythm that we've built here.

所以就是带他们了解所有这些内容。

So it's taking them through all of those things.

再说一次，一旦他们有了点基础，然后就是持续的赋能。

Again, once they've got a little bit of footing underneath them, and then it's ongoing enablement.

市场上出现了新情况。

It's something new happened in the market.

我们怎么确保整个团队都了解呢？

How do we make sure the whole team is educated on it?

所以我们有定期的赋能站会，比如，有新情况发生，无论是我们这边的产品发布，还是生态系统中我们认为需要让大家及时了解的新动态。

So we have recurring enablement stand ups that we do where it's like, okay, something new happened, whether it's a product launch on our side or something launched in the ecosystem that we think is important to keep people updated on.

你们用的是哪个销售沟通平台？

What sales communications platform are you on?

说到你们团队，如果市场上有新动态，你们是用Slack吗？

When you think about you as a team and there's an update in the market, is it Slack?

还是用邮件？

Is it email?

你们怎么确保各个团队之间的知识同步？

How do you ensure synchronicity of knowledge across teams?

说实话，我觉得这方面我们还有改进的空间。

I think honestly we have work to do there.

我觉得如果你去问我们的销售代表，这会是他们抱怨的事情之一。

I think if you talk to our reps, it's one of the things they'd complain about.

完全坦白讲，我们确实需要改进，因为我们各种工具都在用。

If I'm being completely honest, we have improvement to do there because we kind of use it all.

我们有销售赋能平台。

We have our sales enablement platform.

当然，我们也有Slack，而且我们的Slack和其他发展到我们这种规模的公司一样，消息特别多、特别吵。

Then, of course, we have Slack, our Slack is as noisy as a lot of the other companies that get to our scale.

我们也在做线下活动。

We are doing things in person.

我们也在用Zoom开会。

We are doing things on Zoom.

我们的内容到处都是。

We have content everywhere.

而且，我们的客户案例太多了，最后都分散在好几个系统里。

And again, we have so many customer stories that they end up in multiple systems.

当然，还有我都没提到的CRM，我觉得我们还需要做更多工作，让这些不同地方的搜索更方便，或者干脆换个思路，把所有东西都集中到一个地方，采用统一的方法。

And of course, have our I didn't even mention our CRM, that I think we have more work to do to make searchability better across all of these different places, or to just say, look, we're going to take a different approach, and we're going to have everything go to one place and have a singular approach.

所以我说实话。

So I'm being honest.

这个问题我们还没解决。

We don't have that solved yet.

你觉得怎么推动团队在销售技术采用方面突破界限？

How do you think about pushing the boundaries of sales technology adoption within the team?

再说，杰森是我最好的哥们之一。

Like, again, Jason's one of my best buddies.

他对Qualified、Momentum、Artisan，还有各种不同的供应商都特别熟悉。

He is so versed on Qualified, Momentum, Artisan, all the different providers.

你会不会担心自己太专注于执行，没怎么抬头去投资未来的销售工具？

Do you worry that you're too focused on execution, that you don't pull your head up enough to invest in the future of sales tools?

说实话，我确实担心这一点。

I do worry about it, if I'm being honest.

这对我来说，以前并不是最优先考虑的事情。

Like, that is not something that has been top of mind for me historically.

我一直更关注的是那些具体的投入。

I've been much more focused on the inputs.

我们每天都在做什么？

What are we doing every single day?

让自己变得更好，以及我们和客户进行的那些对话。

Getting better ourselves, the conversations we're having with our customers.

所以你说得对，就在最近这几周和几个月里，我更加关注我们能在哪些方面投入更多，比如代理解决方案或者一些令人兴奋的技术，让这些事情变得更简单。

So to your point, just in these last few weeks and months, I've been much more passionate about where can we invest more in either agentic solutions or exciting tech that can make some of this stuff easier.

归根结底，我想让我们的销售代表的工作更轻松。

It just comes back to, I wanna make the job of our reps easier.

很明显，他们在哪些方面真正感到满意，哪些方面有挫败感。

It's very clear where they're really happy and where there's frustrations.

我觉得每家公司都会有这两种情况。

I think every company, you're going to have both.

而我认为我们这边目前的挫败感来自于他们手头的事情太多了。

And I think the frustrations on our side right now would be from the fact that there's a lot on their plates.

我觉得如果我们能利用一些新技术，减少数据重复录入这类事情的麻烦，这并不难做到，而且会产生有意义的影响。

And I think if we can leverage some of these new technologies to remove some of the friction on the duplication of data entry and those types of things, I think it's not a hard thing to do that will make a meaningful impact.

我不是这个意思，别误会。

I don't mean this badly.

你觉得你和团队有能力按照需要的方式去培训这些代理吗？

Do you think you and the team are equipped to train agents in the way that they're needed to be trained?

再说回杰森吧。

Again, go back to Jason.

杰森现在训练智能体特别厉害，他以为别人也都跟他一样。

Jason is so good now at training agents, and he assumes that everyone else is.

我认识的销售代表里，没几个那么懂怎么训练新一代销售智能体的。

I don't know many sales reps that are that versed in how to train the next generation of sales agents.

对。

Yeah.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我也不确定我们行不行。

I don't know that we are.

我们得去探索一下，看看自己有没有这个能力。

We we will need to explore and figure out if we're capable.

如果没有的话，我们就得学着怎么在这方面引入更多的资源和知识。

And if not, we're gonna have to, you know, learn how to bring in more resources and knowledge on that subject.

这肯定不是我个人的专长。

It's certainly not something that I'm an expert at personally.

这就是为什么咨询业务在未来几年会做得很好，朋友。

This is why consulting businesses will do very well in the next few years, my friend.

说真的，实施和采纳，我觉得会是你们公司能学习和提升的最重要的方面之一。

Seriously, implementation and adoption, I think, will be one of the biggest things that you can learn and improve on as as a company.

Kas，你刚才提到了销售业绩和热门观点。

Kas, you mentioned sales performance and hot takes there.

关于销售业绩，有哪些热门观点？

What are the hot takes around sales performance?

我很想听听。

I'd love to hear those.

我关于销售业绩最热门的观点，其实也不是什么新鲜事，我很久以前就说过，就是我不在乎你作为销售代表是否完成了你的配额。

Probably my hottest take on sales performance, which is not a new thing I've said this for a very long time is I don't care if you, as a rep, hit your quota or not.

我的意思是，首先，就像我们之前讨论的，我经常遇到这样的情况，我们尽力根据那个理念来设定配额。

And what I mean by that is, first and foremost, similar to the discussion we're having before, I've been in situations consistently where we're doing our best to set a quota based on that philosophy.

对吧？

Right?

我刚才分享了我们的理念，现在就是设定有挑战性的目标，真正奖励大家。

I just shared our philosophy right now is to try to do aggressive ones, really reward people.

我也遇到过其他情况，比如，嘿。

I've been in other situations where it's, hey.

我们更注重基于任务本身的效率。

We're focused a little bit more on efficiency based on the job to be done.

不管理念是什么，我在职业生涯中多次遇到这种情况：一年刚开始，你就发现目标其实没定对。

Whatever the philosophy is, I've been in situations multiple times in my career where the year starts going and you realize you didn't actually get it right.

可能定得太高，也可能定得太低。

That could be in either direction.

有时候定得太高。

You set them too high.

很多时候，定得太低了。

Oftentimes, you set them too low.

无所谓。

Whatever.

跟预期相比，我觉得配额不仅是个人层面的东西，它更是一个系统性的问题。

Compared to what you expected, I think of quota as both something that's more systemic than something that is entirely on the individual.

另外，我觉得它太滞后了，这也是一个原因。

Also, the other reasons for this is I just think it's too much of a lagging indicator.

我担心的是，如果我们只看月底、季度末或年底有没有达成目标来管理绩效，那就会让领导层变得懒惰。

What my fear is, it creates lazy leadership if we're performance managing based on the idea that someone got to their number or didn't get to their number at the end of a month, quarter, or year.

如果你是战略客户代表，我们其实要到年底才能知道怎么评价你。

If you're a strat rep, we don't really know how to judge you until the year is over.

如果你只有一个客户，而且整个年度都在为年底那个大续约做准备，从季度角度来看——

If you have one account and you're building towards this big renewal at the end of the year, from a quarter perspective-

那这样的话，我们怎么评价人呢？

So then how do we judge people?

如果不看配额，我们怎么判断

If it's not on quota, how do we judge

我非常看重行为和能力，把它们作为绩效框架的核心要素。

I am obsessed with behaviors and competencies as the core facets of a performance framework.

好的。

Okay.

那怎么把行为和能力具体化呢？

Then how do we make that specific, behaviors and competencies?

写出来。

You write it out.

我们确实写出来了，而且说实话，可能写得过于详细了。

So we written out and by the way, it's probably, if I'm being honest, maybe too detailed.

但我们做的第一件事就是制定了一个绩效框架。

But one of the first things that we did is we wrote out a performance framework.

我们说了，顺便提一下，配额也是其中的一部分。

We said, by the way, quote is part of it.

有一个结果类别，我并不是完全否定配额。

There's a results category, and I'm not dismissing quota entirely.

但有一个结果类，那只是其中一个类别。

But there's a results bucket, and that's just one bucket.

而且这不仅仅是配额角度的结果。

And that is not just results from a quota perspective.

是PG。

It's PG.

是我们追踪的所有成功指标。

It's all the success metrics that we are tracking.

然后是行为。

And then behaviors.

我们记录了那意味着什么。

And we documented what does that mean.

然后是能力，我们记录了我们真正关心的所有能力。

And then competencies, we documented all of the competencies that we actually care about.

我们能深入探讨一下吗？

Can we just dig in?

那行为和能力到底是什么意思？

What what is behaviors and competencies, though?

因为，比如说，如果你是一个好奇又有野心的人，我可以好奇又有野心，但一份合同都不签。

Because, like, if you have, like, curious and ambitious dude, I can be curious and ambitious and sign no contracts.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我觉得行为这部分可能更简单直接一些。

Well, I mean, I think the behaviors one is is, like, probably a little bit simpler and straightforward.

就是你平时怎么表现的？

It's how are you showing up?

你善于合作吗？

Are you collaborative?

还是你单打独斗，只顾自己？

Are you lone wolfing it, just looking out for yourself?

你会和队友合作吗？

Are you collaborating with your teammates?

你有成长型思维吗？

Do you have a growth mindset?

你是不是那种整天在办公室里消极，还影响周围同事的人？

Are you someone who's negative constantly in the office and impacting the people around you?

所以，这些基本的东西还是有的。

So, I mean, there's some basic things there.

而能力，我觉得是最关键的。

Competencies, which I think are the most critical.

这些就是，嘿，如果我们已经定义了这些对你日常做好工作很重要的事情，那它们是什么？

Those are, hey, if these are the things that we've defined as important for you to be good at your job day to day, what are they?

所以，这就是有效进行PG的能力。

So that's the ability to do PG effectively.

这就是在和客户交谈时有效进行探索的能力。

That's the ability to do discovery effectively when you're talking to a customer.

真正有效管理你的销售管道的能力，利用我们的medic框架。

The ability to actually manage your pipeline effectively, leveraging our medic framework.

做客户调研的时候，我们会教沟通技巧。

When you're doing discovery, we teach comm.

我们叫它Figma价值销售。

We call it Figma value selling.

但你在做客户调研时，有没有用我们的方法论？

But are you leveraging our methodology when you're doing discovery?

所以这些都是细节。

So it's all of those details.

然后回到刚才关于配额的犀利观点。

And then back to just quickly the point around the hot take on quota.

我的看法是，如果有人说，嘿，这个人表现不好。

Where I come back to is, if someone says, Hey, this person is not doing well.

我第一个问题就是，为什么？

The first thing I'll ask is, why?

如果他们说，因为他们没完成配额，我会马上说，好，那我们来聊聊为什么没完成。

And if they say, well, they didn't hit their quota, I'll immediately go, Okay, well, let's talk about why they didn't.

那我们就来看看这些能力和行为吧。

And let's get into those competencies, and let's get into those behaviors.

如果有人说，其实这个人特别拼命，一直在努力。

And if someone says, Well, actually, this person's totally busting their butt, and they're grinding.

他们的工作态度非常好。

They've got amazing work ethic.

态度也很积极。

They've got a great attitude.

每天都在努力变得更好。

Every day, they're trying to get a little bit better.

而且顺便说一句，他们的PG表现也很不错。

And oh, by the way, their PG is really good.

只是需要一些时间。

It's just taken some time.

还没有转化成结果。

It's not translating.

我听了他们的电话，他们执行得非常好。

When I listen to their calls, they're executing calls really, really well.

而且销售管道也在逐步建立。

And pipeline is being developed.

只是还没转化成他们的业绩数字。

It just hasn't translated to their number yet.

我的观点是，如果你要把这个人从业务中调走，你希望找谁来接替他的位置呢？

My argument is, if you're gonna move that person out of the business, what are you hoping to get to take that person's place?

我明白你的意思。

I get you.

但是，如果你把PG做得很好，资格认证也做得很好，并且积极投入，你一定会转化成功的。

But if you're doing PG really well and you're doing qualification really well and you're showing up to the cause, you will convert.

我同意，但万一我们搞错了呢？

I agree, with the exception of what if we got it wrong?

万一我们设定的配额不对呢？

What if we got the quota wrong?

如果我们把目标定得太高了呢？

What if we set it too high?

这种情况确实会发生。

And that happens.

真的会发生。

It truly does.

我同意你的看法，Harry，但我们要管理的是大规模的事情。

And I agree with you, Harry, but we're trying to manage things at scale.

我不想看到的是形成一种懒惰领导的文化。

And what I don't want is to create a culture of lazy leadership.

我希望领导者能深入细节。

I want leaders to be in the details.

我不希望领导者说，哎呀，我得把这个人调走，因为他们没完成目标。

I want leaders to not be talking about, Well, I gotta move this person out because they didn't hit their quota.

我希望他们说，这是因为这个人表现不佳。

I want them to say, It's because this person isn't showing up right.

就是说，他们不够努力。

Like, they're they're not working hard.

他们没法把我们的培训内容转化成实际对话，因为这说明领导跟销售代表是在同一条船上的。

They're not capable of, you know, translating our enablement into conversation, because that tells me the leader is in the boat with the rep.

你知道，这些不是滞后指标。

You know, they're not lagging indicators.

它们更接近实时。

They're they're more real time.

我是个独行侠，但我赚很多钱，而且我能成交。

I'm a lone wolf, but I make a lot of money, and I close.

我对公司文化没什么负面影响，但我不爱合作，也不是团队型的人。

And I'm not bad for the culture, but I'm not collaborative, and I'm not a team player.

你觉得我有问题吗？

You got a problem with me?

说实话，我觉得这种情况也有它的位置。

I think that there's a place for that, honestly.

而且我认识一些很棒的销售，你可能就会把他们归为那种类型。

And I know some great reps who you would probably define that way.

实际上，当你跟他们聊起这个的时候，他们自己都不想要这个标签。

And actually, when you talk to them about it, they don't even want it.

他们并不是以当独行侠为荣。

It's not like they're proud of being a lone wolf.

只是他们天生就是这样。

It's just that this is how they're wired.

这份工作对每个人来说意义都不一样。

The job means something different for everyone.

所以我不太介意这个，而且我确实见过一些被这样归类的人，一旦你跟他们聊起来，你会说，嘿，哥们儿。

So I don't really have a problem with it, and I think I've actually seen people who are categorized that way, where once you talk to them and you say, hey, buddy.

比如说，你很棒，但你知道吗，有些人把你定义为独行侠。

Like, you're great, but you know that, like, some people are defining you as a lone wolf.

你想以这样的形象被人记住吗？

Is that how you wanna be known?

然后他们说，哎呀，糟糕。

And they go, oh, shit.

不。

No.

我根本不知道。

I didn't even know.

原来大家是这么看我的。

That's what people thought of me.

谢谢你的指点。

Thank you for the coaching.

还有其他人，他们会说，你知道吗？

And there's others who they're like, you know what?

我就是要当独行侠，但我保证我不会毒害任何水井。

I'm going to be a lone wolf, but I promise I'm not going to poison any Wells.

我没打算当领导。

I'm not aspiring to be a leader.

我只想做自己的事，赚钱，成功。

I just want to do my thing, make money, and be successful.

我觉得这也完全可以，只要不负面影响别人就行。

And I think that's also perfectly okay, as long as it's not negatively impacting others.

这是我真正学到的一点。

That's one thing that I've really learned.

我以前容忍了那些坏苹果，因为他们能赚钱，但我忘了他们对其他苹果的伤害有多大。

I've allowed bad apples to persist because they've made money, and I've forgotten how damaging it is to the rest of the apples.

那是另一种情况。

That a different situation.

那是个问题。

That is a problem.

我觉得在这种情况下，你动作再快都不够。

And I think you can't move fast enough in those situations.

我们也见过这样的例子。

And we've seen them.

我们有过这样的经历。

We've had those experiences.

在我待过的几家公司里，我觉得永远都不够快。

Multiple companies I've been at, you can never move fast enough is my opinion.

不过有时候，我觉得他们可能自己都没意识到。

I will say, sometimes, I don't know that they know.

就算在这种情况下，先从给反馈和指导开始，我觉得有时候你会发现人们会想，哦，天哪。

Even in those situations, starting with giving feedback and coaching, I think sometimes you'll find that people are like, oh, wow.

我都没意识到自己给人那种印象。

I didn't realize I was coming across that way.

其他时候，情况很明显，而且更带有恶意。

Other times, it's very apparent, and and it is more malicious.

所以我仍然觉得，你给了反馈，给了指导，但如果问题还在持续。

So I still feel like you give the feedback, give the coaching, but then it's still persisting.

你就必须采取行动了。

You have to make a move.

其实我们刚才在配额问题上说的还挺一致的。

We were kind of aligned, actually, in what we were saying around quota.

你当时说，有时候就是配额定错了。

And you said, well, like, sometimes you just set the wrong quota.

对。

Mhmm.

如果你在给另一位销售主管或者像我这样的早期公司创始人建议，怎么有效地设定配额，这其实挺难的，基本靠感觉。

If you're advising another sales leader or me, a founder of an early stage company around how to set quotas effectively, pretty hard to do, thumb in the air.

我觉得可能是这样。

I think it could be this.

关于有效设定配额，你有什么建议或者经验教训吗？

What would your advice or lessons be around effective quota setting?

我觉得首先要明确你想通过销售团队达成什么目标。

I think it's start with what are you trying to accomplish in what you're trying to do with your sales team.

而且要非常诚实地看待公司目前的状况。

And be really honest about where your business is right now.

市场是在拉你走吗？

And is the market pulling you?

还是你在推动市场？

Are you pulling the market?

我觉得要从这些方面开始考虑。

I think it starts with those things.

如果你的最终结论是，嘿，我们有个机会。

And if where you're ending up is, Hey, we have an opportunity.

我们热爱我们正在做的事，但我们必须把它推向市场，而且必须以非常主动、有策略、外向的方式去做，我们需要某种类型的人来做这件事，那么就应该倾向于给人们更有利的配额，以吸引优秀的人才加入，做这种辛苦的工作，你会从中受益。

We love what we're doing, but we have to push it to the market, and we have to do that in a very proactive, strategic, outbound way, and we need X type of people to do that, then index towards giving people more favorable quotas to entice great people to come in and do that kind of hard work, and you're going reap the benefits of it.

如果你处于市场发展非常快、市场拉力很大的位置，你只是在努力跟上节奏，而当时的工作更多是交易性质的，那么你可能需要建立一些安全网，更注重效率这个方面。

If you're in a position where the market's moving so fast and there's so much market pull and you're just trying to figure out how to keep up with it and its job is more transactional at the time, then you probably want to build in some safety nets and focus more on the efficiency pendulum.

我觉得首先要明确你要解决什么问题。

I think it starts with what are you trying to solve for?

你怎么判断什么时候够了，什么时候代表表现不佳？

How do you determine when enough is enough and when the rep's not performing?

是快速解雇并做出决定更好，还是给人们更多时间更好？

Is it better to fire fast and make the decision, or is it actually better to give people more time?

我觉得这取决于他们面临的挑战在哪里。

I think it depends on where their challenges are.

而且再说一次，我通常是比较有耐心的。

And again, I am generally pretty patient.

如果你告诉我某人工作非常努力，他们在进步，有成长心态，工具也到位了，只是还没完全到位，我通常会更有耐心。

If you tell me someone's working really hard, and they're improving, and they have a growth mindset, and the tools are there, it's just not quite coming together yet, I generally tend to be more patient.

因为，再说一次，我总是在想，在规模上，我需要几百个人，对吧？

Because, again, I'm always thinking about, at scale, I need hundreds of people, right?

对于这个每天都在拼命努力、变得更好、有赢的欲望、看起来也有能力，只是需要时间的人，还有什么替代方案呢？

What is the alternative to this person who's busting their butt and getting better every day and has the desire to win and seems to have the aptitude and it's just taking time?

就像你说的，如果你雇了200个人，也许其中40个是好的。

Like you said, if you hire 200 people, maybe 40 of them are good.

找到优秀的人很难，我认为这些特质确实是优秀的人所具备的基本特征。

It's hard to find great people, and I think those characteristics are really fundamental in what great people look like.

如果问题不是那样，而是像我们说的，他们是坏种子，或者不努力工作，抱怨之类的，那我觉得你就得动作快很多。

If the problems are different than that, if they're, like we talked about, they're bad seeds or they're not working hard, they're complaining, those types of things, then I think you have to move much faster.

对于那些做对了所有事情但还没见效的人，我非常没耐心；而对于那些没有表现出意愿的人，我容忍度很低，因为我觉得这完全是个人的掌控范围。

I have super high bar impatience for the people that are doing all the right things but it's not clicking yet, and I have a very low bar for the people who are not exhibiting the will because that's just so I feel like it's so in our individual control.

你可能没法

You might not

控制配额。

be able to control the quota.

你可能没法控制，我们有没有给你

You might not be able to control, did we give you

合适的支持。

the right enablement or not?

但你可以控制你的态度，以及你每天怎么表现。

But you can control your attitude and how you show up every day.

如果连这个都没有，那我就一点耐心都没有了。

And if that is not there, I have no patience.

最后一个问题，哥们，在我们快速问答之前。

Final one for you, dude, before we do a quick fire.

我非常相信垂直化的销售团队。

I believe in verticalized sales teams a lot.

我认为专业化和专注能提升效率和成果。

I think specialization and focus drives efficiency and outcomes.

对于创始人和销售负责人，关于何时以及如何有效地垂直化销售团队，你最大的建议是什么？

What would be your biggest advice to founders or sales leaders on when and how to verticalize sales teams effectively?

我认为专注和专业化，毫无疑问，越早越好，在我看来。

I think focus and specialization, no question, as early as possible, in my opinion.

如果我们说的是垂直化，也就是按特定行业划分，让团队专注于某一类客户，那我觉得这很大程度上取决于你销售的产品和平台。

Now, if we're talking about verticalization, that by definition, peeling off specific industries and focusing people in a subset of types of customers, I think that is, again, highly dependent on the product, the platform that you're selling.

所以我可以告诉你，在Figma，我们至今其实没有做过任何按行业划分的团队，但我们做过的是考虑销售动作、我们销售的对象，以及在某些情况下，通过试错，创建一些覆盖型团队。

So I can tell you at Figma, we, to this day, have not actually done any type of industry based teams, but what we have done is we thought about sales motions, personas that we're selling to, and creating In some cases, it's been trial and error, but some overlay teams.

你可能知道我们不久前收购了一家叫Ouivi的公司，我们现在推向市场的方式有点像覆盖型销售模式。

You may know we acquired a company called Ouivi not that long ago, and the way we're going to market with that product right now is is in a little bit more of like an overlay motion.

我们回到的根本问题是，你让一个人承担多少工作？

And what we're coming back to is, like, what are you asking one person to do?

是不是太多了？

And is it too much?

你必须做出决定。

You have to just make the call.

当一个人忙不过来的时候，你就得考虑怎么进一步专业化分工。

At the point where it's too much for one person, you have to think about how do you create more specialization.

可能是按客户群划分，可能是按行业划分，也可能是叠加团队，各种方式都行。

And that might be segmentation, it might be verticalization, it might be overlay, you name it.

但我始终关注的是，我们是不是让销售代表承担了太多？

But that's where I always come back to, is like, are we asking reps to do too much?

太多意味着要懂产品、懂愿景、懂市场格局、懂产品管理，还要管理交易，等等。

And too much means understand the product, the vision, the landscape, PG, manage deals, etcetera.

如果在此基础上，还要求他们去掌握新的客户角色或不同类型的销售模式，那可能就超负荷了。

One of the equations will be, if we're then asking them to go master a new persona or a different type of motion, that might be too much.

但我觉得这取决于每个组织。

But I think it depends on on each organization.

哥们，我们来个快问快答。

Dude, we're gonna do a quick fire.

我说一句简短的话，你马上给我你的想法。

I say a short statement, and you give me your immediate thoughts.

这样可以吗？

Does that sound okay?

好的。

Okay.

除了你自己的销售团队，你最尊重哪个销售团队，为什么？

Which sales org, other than your own, do you most respect and why?

Datadog。

Datadog.

我在那儿工作过，所以可能有点作弊。

I mean, I did work there, so I maybe cheated a little bit.

但他们能留住优秀人才，年复一年，年复一年。

But they have been able to keep great people there for years and years and years.

他们真的很相信从内部提拔。

They really believe in promoting from within.

而且他们是少数几个在所有环节都做得好的公司之一，从SDR到非常非常战略性的岗位。

And they're another one of those few companies where they've kind of mastered all the segments, SDR, to very, very strategic.

什么是过时的销售策略？

What is an outdated sales tactic?

已经不再适用了。

No longer is relevant.

送礼物？

Sending gifts?

送礼物？

Sending gifts?

对。

Yeah.