20VC：柯基保险：美国最激烈的工作场所文化：每周7天，创始人睡在办公室，柯基咖啡馆24小时营业，前30名员工中有60%拥有柯基纹身｜两年内从零估值到26亿美元的历程

Deal Speed，我真的喜欢这个。

Deal, love deal speed.

是的。

Yeah.

没错，这样一来，我们大概已经有点盈利了。

Yeah, So with that, I think we're probably slightly profitable.

如果我是投资人，我会说，尼科，我太喜欢你了。

If I was an investor, I'd say, Nico, I love you.

老兄，我太欣赏你这股劲头了。

Dude, I love the energy.

这简直就是个巨大的干扰。

This is a fucking distraction.

是的，他们一开始还挺反感的。

Yeah, they hated it at first.

你为什么要做扩张呢？

Why are you doing expansion, hey?

你说话的样子简直跟我们的投资人一模一样。

You sound exactly like our investors.

在开业之前，我就接到很多电话和短信，都说同样的事。

I got a ton of calls and texts that said that before it opened.

不，不是这样的。

Oh, no, no, no, no.

我确实这么说过。

I did.

不是，真的不是。

No, no.

我确实这么说过。

I did.

我明白了一个道理：在创始人还没被批评之前，你根本不会得到任何认可。

Promise I've learned that you don't get any credit Until it's ever criticizing a founder.

所以我现在就不说了。

So I just don't.

你知道我平时怎么做吗？

You know what I do?

兄弟，我站你这边。

Dude, I'm here for you.

干得漂亮。

Well done.

我们的投资人没收到风声，所以我听了不少这类话。

Our investors didn't get the memo, so I heard plenty of that.

但兄弟，你为啥非得这么做？

But, dude, why are you doing it?

我在旧金山能理解，没问题。

I get it in SF, cool.

你是在伦敦开店。

You're opening in London.

是的。

Yeah.

我们的办公室确实设在伦敦。

I mean, we have an office in London.

我觉得伦敦前景非常看好。

I think I'm very bullish London, actually.

你为什么这么看好伦敦？

Why are you bullish London?

我觉得那里的人才特别出色，不管是英国本地的还是整个欧洲的。说实话，世界上没几个地方，你跟人说‘去那儿吧’，人家会这么乐意搬过去。

I think the talent is exceptional, both British talent and European, and I think, you know, there's very few places in the world where if you tell someone, like, pretty much anywhere to move to, they're, like, very happy to do so.

旧金山就是这样的地方之一。

I think San Francisco's one of those places.

纽约也是，不过我觉得真正优秀的企业在纽约并不算多。

I think New York's one of those places, although I don't think that good companies tend to be in New York.

正因如此，伦敦有一些独特的优势。再加上美国现在的签证政策，我觉得伦敦完全有机会成为人工智能和科技领域的中心。

And because of that, I think that there's certain exceptional qualities that London has, and given the whole, like, visa situation in The United States, I think there's actually a phenomenal opportunity for London to become a center of AI and a center of tech.

所以我们先在伦敦开了办公室，之后才去纽约。

So we opened a London office before we opened a New York office.

我们非常看重伦敦。

We're a very long London.

你觉得在伦敦招聘便宜很多吗？

Do you find it much cheaper to hire in London?

稍微便宜一点。

It's a little bit cheaper.

我觉得我们可能给得比市场高一点，但也没高太多。

I think we, you know, maybe we're paying above market, but we're not paying that much.

关键是，如果你在Corgi工作，只冲着薪水去，那你就搞错方向了。

The thing is if if you're working for, like, a salary working at Corgi, you're doing something wrong.

如果你特别在意现金薪酬，那可能你就不适合这里。

Like, if you're super hyped about your cash, like, comp, then then probably

你们在股权上比别人更慷慨吗？

Are you more generous than others on equity?

因为你清楚，你是在要求别人把70%的人生交给公司。

Because you understand that you are asking for more of someone's life being 70%.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

我们在额外奖励上很慷慨。

We're we're generous with top top offs.

员工入职后，我们会根据绩效追加股权。

After people are working, we give more equity based upon performance.

我们的慷慨体现在这里，而不是刚入职时给的初始股权。

That's where we're generous, more than the initial equity people sign on.

所以，这就像根据达成的关键节点来加速激励。

Okay, so it's like accelerators on milestones hit.

是的，说起来没那么系统，但差不多就是这么回事。

Yeah, mean, it's a little more ad hoc than that, but yeah, something like that.

我们刚才说到干扰的事。

We said about distractions.

很多创始人都会进行天使投资。

A lot of founders angel invest.

你怎么看待创始人主动做天使投资这件事？

How do you think about founders actively angel investing?

我不做天使投资。

I don't angel invest.

我觉得这会分散注意力。

I think it's a distraction.

这感觉并不是取得成功的核心。

It doesn't feel like it's core to winning.

你卖过二级市场股份吗？

Have you sold secondaries?

没有，总有人想买，但我至今还没卖过任何一份二级市场股份。

No, I haven't sold any second people are always trying to buy them, but I've yet to sell a single secondary.

为什么

Why is

为什么？

that?

因为我们的股权在升值，也许我不该这么说，但我确实相信我们的股权在涨，所以我用行动来表态。

Because our equity is going up, and maybe I shouldn't say that, but I believe our equity is going up, and I'm voting with my feet.

如果在我看来，我所能影响的最稀缺的资源就是这个，而且我觉得我们还会继续做得很好、继续大放异彩，那我为什么要卖呢？

If I have the, in my opinion, the scarcest asset that I could have any meaningful influence over, and I think that we're gonna keep doing well and keep kicking ass, know, why would I sell that?

说实话，我并没有什么

Like, I don't really have a

你确实不用付高额房租，这点没错。

You don't have huge rent to pay, that's for sure.

确实如此。

That's true.

尽管伦敦前景看好，你还是对旧金山特别看好。

Despite the bullishness on London, you're still super bullish on SF.

是的，我特别喜欢旧金山。

Yeah, I love San Francisco.

为什么那么多优秀人才都聚集在旧金山？是因为那儿没别的可玩吗？

Why is the amount of great talent building in SF, is it just there's nothing else to do there?

这可能是原因之一，而伦敦恰恰在这方面有点劣势。

That might be part of it, which is maybe a bit of a problem that London has.

伦敦的场所开门时间更晚，街上的人也更多。

Things are actually open later in London, and there's more people about.

酒吧太多，这可能是个问题。

Too many pubs, that might be a problem.

那儿的酒吧确实很多。

There's a lot of pubs.

酒吧数量太多了。

There are a lot of pubs.

你喝酒吗？

Do you drink?

我不喝酒。

No, I don't drink.

但我觉得旧金山是个特别的地方，尤其是对于美国人来说，如果你想要做一番大事，却又不太清楚该去哪儿，旧金山就是个理想的选择——如果你有点书呆子气，热爱科技、编程，喜欢这些不太主流的领域。

But I think San Francisco's a special place because, particularly with people in The US, if you wanna do something big with your life and you're not really quite sure where to go to, San Francisco is destination where, like, you know, if you're a bit nerdy and if you love technology, love programming, you love kind of these slightly unpopular sort of topics.

在这里，你往往能找到志同道合的人，甚至不知不觉就决定搬过来定居。

It's a place where you can actually, like, find your people oftentimes, and where, like, you'll find yourself moving to.

我觉得这种特质非常独特。

And I think that that's a special quality.

它简直有种精神上的吸引力，好像每个人都在流放中，而这种氛围真的非常少见。

It's almost like a spiritual quality, like, know, everyone's in exile or something, and I think that that's something that's, like, very unique.

所以纽约根本不适合创业。

That's why New York is not a good place to have a company at all.

有人把公司搬到纽约，唯一的原因就是为了谈恋爱。

The people that move their companies to New York do so because they want to date.

说白了，这就是他们这么做的唯一理由。

You know, that's the only real reason why they do.

迈阿密也好，其他那些地方也一样。

Same with Miami or, you know, all of these other places.

如果你真心想做创业，而且是美国人，那我建议你多去旧金山。

If you're hardcore about startups and you're American, then I think you should go to San Francisco oftentimes.

当然，其他城市也非常好。

I mean, there's super great other cities.

比如我很喜欢芝加哥，我们在达拉斯的办公室也很棒。

Like, I I do like Chicago, and we have an office in Dallas that's really great too.

如果你是美国以外的创业者，那伦敦也是首屈一指的，不过得避开酒吧。

And if you're hardcore about startups outside of The United States, I think London is is second to none as well, although you gotta avoid the pubs.

那些酒吧确实挺让人分心的。

The pubs are really getting it.

我懂你的意思。

I get you.

我们聊了很多，从厨师、建筑招牌，到可卡犬咖啡馆，再到工作态度。

We've spoken a lot about everything from chefs to signage on buildings to Corgi Cafe to work ethic.

你比我年轻一些，但我常回想起自己是怎么把公司做起来的。

You're a little bit younger than me, but I do reflect on how I've built the company.

当你回望过去，觉得哪些事本来不该做，其中最大的遗憾是什么？

When you reflect on what you did that you wish you hadn't done, what was the biggest?

我不太纠结于犯过的错。

I don't dwell on mistakes.

这可真有马克·安德森的风格。

Think How very Marc Andreessen of you.

确实，我更关注那些成功的经历，而不是失败，因为从成功里能学到的东西更多。

Yeah, think I look more at the victories than the losses, because I think there's more to learn from the victories.

如果你能反复复制那些真正奏效的做法，那会很有帮助。

And if you can emulate the things that have worked really well again and again.

马修·麦康纳在德克萨斯大学或者休斯顿大学的一场毕业演讲特别精彩。

There's a brilliant commencement speech by Matthew McConaughey at the University of Texas or University of Houston.

他说，要研究成功，重视从成功中汲取的经验。

He says, Study success and the importance of lessons from success.

如果反过来问你，你研究过哪些成功案例？又从中学到了什么？

If I were to then flip it and say, what success have you studied and what do you learn from it?

你觉得那是什么？

What would you say that is?

我觉得你得去看看

I think that you need to look

那些顶尖人物，而他们往往并不在创业圈里。

at the greats, and the greats are oftentimes outside of of the context of startups.

比如，当然有那些广为人知的创业创始人，但我觉得，从亚历山大大帝到拿破仑，再到其他历史上的伟人，都特别有启发。

Like, you know, people like there's obvious, like, famous startup founders, but I think that looking at everyone from Alexander the Great to Napoleon to, you know, so on and so forth is also very informative.

如果你想改变世界，想做点真正重要的事，而不是简单地模仿别人，或者只想当个班干部——那也没问题。

If you wanna, like, change the world, if you wanna do something important and you don't wanna just be, like, a memetic copy of everyone else or you wanna be class president or something, that's fine.

但如果你真想干一番大事业，那研究这些伟人的做法就特别有价值。

But if you wanna actually, like, do something big, then I think that being a student of the greats is great.

我觉得关键不在于照搬他们。

The important thing, I think, is is probably not copying them.

你得有自己的风格。

Like, you should have your own style.

但学习历史，大概是一件挺好的事。

But being a student of history is probably a pretty positive thing.

如果我问你，Corgi的文化用一个词怎么形容？

If I were to ask you, what's Corgi's culture in one word?

你觉得会是什么？

What would you say it is?

我们的文化就是赢。

We have a culture of winning.

赢。

Winning.

就这么简单。

That's it.

就这么简单。

That's it.

以前我可能会说，前创始人、极客之类的，但那些其实都是表面功夫，我们真正看重的就是赢。

Maybe in the past, I would have answered, like, ex founder, hackers, other things, but I think all that's actually kind of fake, and we just like winning.

团队现在有多大？

How big is the team?

现在大概一百多人吧。

Maybe a bit over 100 now.

等你们发展到一千人的时候，还能保持现在的这种干劲吗？

Can you maintain the intensity that you have today when you're at 1,000 people?

能。

Yeah.

很简单。

Easy.

真的吗？

Really?

我觉得可以。

I think so.

为什么别人就是做不到呢？

Why has no one else been able to do it?

所以自然而然地，某些角色就会慢慢形成。

So naturally, there's roles, I think, that creep in.

律师或会计师的工作方式，跟软件工程师肯定不一样。

A lawyer or an accountant are not gonna work in the same way that a software engineer might.

这本来就是现实，所以如果他们不想那么拼，那就多招几个人来完成同样的工作量，这也没问题。

And that's just a fact of life, so okay, so if they don't want to work quite as hard, then you just need to hire more of them for the same work output, which is okay.

这其实就是个投资回报的计算问题。

It's just like a return on investment calculation.

我能想到的唯一原因是，到了某个阶段，你得从极度拼命的状态里退出来，接受增长慢一点，但波动也小一点。

The only reason I can think of is, you know, there's some point in which you need to take the off ramp of being super hardcore, and you need to accept maybe lower growth but less volatility.

就我个人而言，以我现在所处的阶段，我不介意波动，因为我觉得它能在很多方面带来超额回报。

I personally, at least at the current stage I'm at, don't mind volatility as something that I think can produce alpha in a lot of ways.

有人批评你们的文化太排外，说当父母的根本没法做到你们要求的那样，你怎么回应？

What would you say to people who say that you're exclusionary in the work culture and that parents couldn't do what you want?

我们公司里其实有很多父母，生活就是取舍和牺牲。

I mean, we have plenty of parents that work at Corgi, so life's about trade offs and sacrifices.

如果你希望在工作中建立归属感，和同事成为朋友，让职场生活融入你的生活，而不是和生活割裂开来，那Corgi绝对是个很棒的地方。

I think Corgi is a great place to work if you want a sense of community and camaraderie with the people you work with, if you wanna have friends in the workplace, the social life attached to your workplace, if you want your work to be additive to your life as opposed to separate.

不管你有没有结婚，有没有孩子，这一点都适用。

That applies whether you're married, whether you have kids, don't have kids.

我们有不少同事孩子很多，但如果你只是想按时打卡、下班就彻底不管工作，那我尊重你的选择——世界上有无数其他工作等着你，这完全没问题。

Some of our best people have a lot of children, but if you wanna clock in and then just check out of work, then respectfully, there's infinite other jobs you can get, and that's okay.

Corgi并不适合所有人。

Corgi's not for everyone.

你在意别人对你说这些话时的批评吗？

Do you care about the backlash that you get when you speak about this?

当然在意。

Yeah.

是的，我很在意。

Yeah.

说实话，我经常收到很多批评。

I mean, I get a lot of backlash.

威胁啊，私信啊，你知道的。

Threats and the DMs, you know.

有些人觉得我疯了。

People people think I'm I'm nuts.

你在乎吗？

Do you care?

不太在乎。

Not really.

不在乎。

No.

说不准。

I don't know.

我的意思是，你以前在乎过吗？

I mean, I Have you ever cared?

是的。

Yeah.

我真的不知道。

I I don't know.

我觉得年轻人，特别是年轻男性，在社会上得到的支持其实不多，这确实会给人很大压力，尤其是当你还没有太多外部认可或信誉的时候。

I I think when you're a young person, particularly, I I think young men, you know, don't have that much support within society, and I think it's something, of course, that, like, weighs on people, particularly if you don't have, you know, a lot of external validation or or credibility yet.

信誉这东西很难建立，这也回到了创业公司核心的合法性危机问题。

Credibility is something that, you know, is hard to get, which goes back to the the crisis of legitimacy that I think is is core to start ups.

你觉得你现在已经算有合法性了吗？

Do you think you're legitimate yet?

我知道这话听起来有点奇怪。

I know that sounds strange.

我们的运营比银行还稳定，收入也很高，也融过资了。

I mean, so we're more regular than a bank and we make a lot of revenue and have raised money.

但我觉得我们还没完全算得上合法合规。

I don't think we're quite legit yet.

我觉得我们正在慢慢走向那个方向。

I think we're getting there.

我觉得，当你因为买了IBM而不会被开除的时候，你就算是 legit 了。

I think you're legitimate when you're in that you don't get fired for buying IBM.

以我作为投资方的角度来看，如果你投的是安德里森这样的大机构，或者你选的是那些顶级平台，你作为有限合伙人，根本不会因为投了安德里森而被问责。

And I would, in my context as a fund, if you're Andreessen or you're, you name these big, large platforms, you don't get fired as an LP for doing Andreessen.

对，就是这样。

Right.

绝对不可能被质疑。

Can't, like period.

是的，你说得一点都没错。

Yeah, that's probably exactly right.

其实，在投资圈里，安德里森、克莱纳，甚至当年的红杉，刚起步的时候也不过就是几个小伙子，挤在一间破房间里，根本不知道自己在干嘛，全靠边摸索边瞎撞。

The thing is, in the fun context, you know, Andreessen or Kleiner or even Sequoia back in the day, at some point, they were just a couple guys in some shitty room that didn't really know, like, what they were doing and were making it up as they went along.

他们当时肯定——不，是毫无疑问地，盯着别人说：总有一天，我们也要像他们那样，成为被机构投资人真正认可的正规军。

And they were probably pointing at not probably, they certainly were pointing at other people and saying, oh, one day we'll be legit like them and the institutional LPs will take us seriously.

永远都会有更‘正规’的下一站。

There's always, you know, more legit.

对吧？

Right?

从养老基金到大学捐赠基金，再到政府机构，都可以。

You can go go from pension funds to university endowments to to the government.

这大概是最高的认可了，毕竟政府有权直接拿走老百姓的钱。

You know, that's the ultimate form of legitimacy, probably because the government can just take people's money.

关于薪酬，你有什么经验？

What are your lessons on paying people?

我学到的一点是，当员工要求加薪时，通常都是不错的人才。

So what I've learned, for example, is that when people ask for more money, they tend to be very good.

但要是他们只想要头衔，那往往就不太靠谱。

When they ask for more title, they tend to be very bad.

关于薪资水平、行业对标和薪酬结构，你有什么建议？

Any lessons on salaries, benchmarking, comp?

一般来说，现金薪酬低点反而是好事。

Low cash comp is is something good, generally speaking.

最后谁会特别成功？

Who ends up doing extremely well?

如果有人表现很好，你就该多给他们些股权，让他们觉得，哪怕只是做个简单的投资回报计算，留在当前岗位也是收益最大的选择。

Like, if people are doing well, you need to just give them more equity especially, and make it so that if they're doing a very simple return on investment calculation, that the highest EV thing they can do is like work in their current role.

如果你给不了这种上升空间，他们就没理由再拼命干了，不如去别处，不管是换公司、自己创业，都行。

And if you can't provide that upside, like there's no reason for them to like continue like working super hard and they should be doing something else, whether that's working for someone else or starting their own thing or whatever.

除了薪酬和简单的估值计算之外，你还得真正在解决大问题。如果你没在解决大问题，再高的薪水也留不住真正优秀的人。

I think separate from kind of the comp and the simple EV calculation is that you need to actually be like solving big problems, and if you're not solving big problems, then no matter how much you pay people, you're not gonna retain them if they're actually good.

你可以把任何团队大致分成三类。

You can probably split, like, with any organization of the team into three.

一类是特别出色的人，一类是可替代的、平平无奇的人，还有一类是表现差的。我觉得，哪怕会引起一些风波，也得尽快把表现差的人清理掉。

You can have people that are, like, really good, people that are kind of fungible and, like, mediocre, and then people that are bad, I and think getting rid of the bad very quickly is important, even if it makes a lot of noise.

那平平无奇的人呢？留着吗？

Do you keep to mediocre?

我不这么说，但每个组织里都有那么一些人，他们走了你也不会太心疼。

I wouldn't put it like that, but I think in any organization, there's people that you wouldn't be devastated if they left.

我总是问一个问题：以你现在的眼光来看，你还会再雇他们吗？

The question I always ask is knowing what you know now, would you hire them again?

这是最重要的问题。

It's the most important question.

是的，确实有不少人，答案可能是肯定的，但就算他们走了，你也不会痛哭流涕、砸墙发泄。

Yeah, mean, there's a lot of people where the answer might be yes, but you're not gonna be sobbing and punching the wall if they're no longer

离开你。

with you.

作为CEO，融资是你工作的重要组成部分。

Fundraising is a big part of your job as a CEO.

你最近不是融了15亿美元吧？

You recently raised, I think, 1.5?

对，是1.3亿。

Yeah, 1.3.

1.3亿，来自TCV。

1.3 from TCV.

我特别喜欢TCV，也特别喜欢约翰·多兰，节目开始前我还跟他聊过。

Love TCV, love John Doran, spoke to him before the show.

你现在已经经历了监管前、监管后，还有收入快速增长阶段的融资，回过头看，最核心的一课是什么？

What are your single biggest lessons on fundraising, having raised now across pre regulated, post regulated, revenue scaling very fast?

你融了上亿美元之后，最出乎意料的收获是什么？

What are the most non obvious lessons you have from raising several $100,000,000?

说实话，我不确定自己算不算真懂这个。

You know, don't know if I'm actually an expert there or anything like that.

你觉得你自己是个擅长融资的人吗？

Do you think you're a good fundraiser?

我觉得我还行吧。

I think I'm alright at it.

我已经干了这么多年了。

I've had to do it for years now.

所以我觉得，只要一件事你坚持做很多年，总能做得不错。

So I think if you have to do anything for years, you can

你现在知道了哪些事情，要是当初一开始就知道就好了？

What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started?

是的。

Yeah.

我刚开始的时候，路演讲得一点都不好。

When I started, my pitch was not very good.

还记得我第一次路演吗？

Like, remember my first pitch.

是讲给谁听的？

Who was it to?

第一次路演应该是给First Round Capital讲的。

Probably First Round Capital was my first pitch.

明白了。

Okay.

很久以前，我第一次接触的风投是谷歌风投。

From way back in the day, the very first VC I ever talked to was at Google Ventures.

不过说实话，我当初为Corgi做的第一次融资演示，应该是找的第一轮资本。

But, yeah, I mean, my first pitch for Corgi, I think, was maybe First Round Capital.

我记得前一天晚上赶了红眼航班。

I remember I took a red eye the night before.

我眼睛真的是红的。

My eyes were actually red.

看起来就像刚吸了什么似的。

I looked like I was high or something.

我特别紧张，因为我们得在24小时内筹到500万美元。

I was so nervous because we had to get $5,000,000 and we had twenty four hours.

我周四晚上飞回去的。

I flew back Thursday night.

我当时还说，哎，几天内就把钱打给你。

I was like, Oh, we'll get the money to you in a couple days.

你知道银行那边是怎样的。

You know the banks are.

转账得花点时间。

It'll take some time to transfer the money.

所以我就从星期五开始继续路演。

So I started pitching Friday.

我们有星期六和星期天，必须在星期一之前把钱拿到手。

We had Saturday, Sunday, and had to get the money by Monday.

说实话，那次路演效果并不怎么样。

And, you know, I think the pitch was not very good, honestly.

我 basically 就是让他们别多问，信我就行。

I think it was a lot of, Just trust me.

我没告诉他们保险公司的名字，怕他们直接打电话过去把事情搞砸了。

I wasn't telling them the name of the insurance carrier because I was afraid they'd call them and ruin it.

我最早那几场路演都不怎么样。

First set of pitches I did weren't that good.

你当时是想融两百万，估值一千万？

And you were raising two on 10?

那次我们是用28万融资5万。

We were raising five on 28 with that one.

那是2024年的事，当时并不容易。

And that was 2024, so that wasn't super easy.

那确实是最近的事。

That was recently.

我的意思是，也就是两年前吧。

I mean, it was like two years ago.

是的。

Yeah.

你最好的一次风投会面是哪次？

What was the best VC meeting you had?

最糟糕的是那些特别死板的会面，他们一上来就问些没用的问题，比如我们的资产负债表，或者钻那些细枝末节。

The worst are when it's super structured, and when they start asking me BS about our balance sheet, or they're getting the nitty gritty.

我不是那种人。

Not that type of guy.

我觉得最好的那些会面，通常是对方特别注重增长或者产品思维的时候。

Think I that the best ones tend to be when someone is very growth minded or product minded.

我们就能轻松聊聊未来的方向，怎么才能赢。

We just get to vibe about where we're going and how we're gonna win.

那没投资你的那次最佳VC会面是哪次？

So what was the best VC meeting that didn't invest?

我遇到过好多没投资但特别棒的会面。

I've had plenty of great ones that didn't invest.

我不会让那些人难堪，毕竟他们后来还是投了。

I'm not gonna put them on the spot because they invest later on.

啊，明白了。

Ah, okay.

最差的是哪一次？

What was the worst?

哦，我确实遇到过几次特别糟的。

Oh, I've had some really bad ones.

你有没有遇到过特别差的？最差的是哪一次？

Have you had some really bad What was worst?

我遇到过一些人，尤其是第一轮的早期投资人，态度非常不尊重。

I've had people, especially the first round, The early stage investors are disrespectful.

我遇到过开车来见我的。

I've had people driving.

有人一边开会一边刷牙，边吃东西，比如烤肋排，吃得满嘴满脸都是。

I've had people flossing their teeth on the meeting, chowing down food, barbecue ribs or something where it's getting all over their face.

什么稀奇古怪的场面我都见过。

I've seen it all.

他怎么说的？

What did he say?

我当时就想，麻烦你先把牙线用完吧。

I'm like, please finish flossing.

没关系。

It's okay.

是的。

Yeah.

有一次在FaceTime上，有个家伙一边吸电子烟，我还以为他睡着了，眼睛闭着靠在墙上。

I had one on FaceTime where the guy was hitting his vape, and I thought he was asleep because he just had his eyes closed leaning against the wall.

我见过不少离谱的路演，尤其是在早期阶段。

I've had some crazy pitches, particularly at the early stage.

对于创始人来说，定价你最大的建议是什么？

What are your biggest advice to founders on price?

定价确实是个难题。

Price is a difficult one.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得价格方面，布莱恩·切斯基曾经告诉我，永远不要接受出价最高的那个，我一直记在心里。

I think price Brian Chesky told me one time to never take the highest price, and I've taken that to heart.

所以我们从来不会选出价最高的。

So we never take the highest price ever.

这确实是个很实用的经验法则。

That's just a good rule of thumb.

比如，我们通常会选第二高或者第三高的价格。

Like, we always go with, like, the second or third highest price.

我不太喜欢在价格上讨价还价。

I don't do a lot of negotiating on price.

我主要是看看市场情况，如果觉得价格合适，就直接定下来。

I just kind of see where the market's at, and then if something seems reasonable, I just stick with it.

而且，你知道，我们本来可以以更高的价格完成所有融资轮次，但我们从未这样做。

And, you know, we could raise all of our rounds at higher prices, but we never do.

通常需要多长时间？

How long does it take

完成一轮融资？

to raise rounds for you normally?

最多也就几天。

Couple days at most.

如果你在市场上拖得太久，那可不是好事。

If you're in the market for a long time, it's a bad thing.

也许这对你的估值、融资金额或者筹集的资金有好处，但我认为对公司来说是坏事，因为你开始专注于卖股权，而不是卖产品和服务。

Maybe it's a good thing for your, like, valuation or for the amount of money you're raising or funds you're raising from, but I think it's a bad thing for the company because you start to optimize for, like, selling equity instead of, like, selling your goods and services.

融资特别耗精力。

Fundraising is, like, super distracting.

虽然没到签了投资条款清单后做审计那么糟，但也够让人分心的。

It's not quite as bad as audits after you get the term sheet, but it is pretty distracting.

最多几天，我明白你的意思。

Couple of days at most, I hear you.

我站在投资方这边，真的完全理解你。

I'm on the other side of that deal, and I'm like, dude, I'm with you.

谁都不想搞融资。

You don't wanna do it.

我也不希望跟你一起经历融资过程。

I don't wanna be in a fundraise process with you either.

但我真的想了解你，也希望你了解我。

But I do wanna get to know you, and I do want you to know me.

投资人总这么说，但问题是，他们明明可以花时间去了解你，却从不这么做。

VCs always say that, but the thing is, they could put in the work to get to know you, but they never do.

我觉得这正是问题所在。

And I think that's

我不太明白，这挺有意思的，因为我们完全站在了桌子的另一边。

I don't, like so again, is interesting because we're totally on the other side of the table.

我们真的努力了，你知道结果是什么吗？

We fucking try, and you know what we get?

谢谢你的邮件，我们正在评估中。

Thanks so much for your email, we're Well, heads

我正埋头忙重要的事。

what the I'm heads down.

如果你正在推进一个能让你收入翻倍的关键项目，最后一件事就是去见投资人。

Because if you're working on an important deal that's gonna double your revenue, the last thing you wanna do is meet with some VC.

我明白，但你能不能帮我理清楚一点？

I get it, but then help me understand.

你知道吗

You know

有位投资人曾经跟我说过一件事？

what an investor told me one time, actually?

他说，真正优秀的公司都能把交易谈成。

He said, Good companies get deals done.

一开始我挺生气的。

At first, I was mad.

听到这话，我其实挺不爽的。

I was kinda pissed to hear that.

那话听着就像个拐着弯的讽刺，根本算不上夸奖。

Like, it was, you know, like a like a backhanded, like, wasn't even a compliment, guess.

那就是赤裸裸的贬低。

It was just an insult.

他言下之意是，我们不是一家好公司，因为我们谈不下来单子。

He was implying that we weren't a good company because we weren't getting deals done.

我后来真的把这话放在心上了，因为我觉得他说得对。

I've actually taken it to heart because I think it's true.

真正的好公司，确实都能把单子谈成。

Good companies do get deals done.

从那以后，我们调整了做法，开始频频拿下订单。

Since then, we've, like, shifted our approach, and we started getting deals done.

我们不再那么死板了，做事也变得果断起来。

You know, we stopped being such absolutists, and we move with haste.

拖延会毁掉所有交易，作为一家公司，我们就是要把单子搞定。

Time kills all deals, and we, like, as a company, we, like, get deals done.

这才是关键。

Like, that's the key.

我觉得一家风投公司其实有很多层面。

I think that a venture capital firm is a lot of things.

它是一个品牌。

It's a brand.

它是一种生活方式型生意。

It's a lifestyle business.

但有一件事是肯定的，那就是公司。

But one thing is certainly a company.

优秀的企业能促成交易，我觉得这一点对风险投资公司也同样适用。

Good companies get deals done, and I think that applies to venture capital firms too.

有些交易，你知道的，是在危机时刻谈成的。

Some deals, you know, are made in times of crisis.

我最敬佩的风险投资交易，是听我的基金说起的那些案例——当时被投公司快撑不下去了，结果有风投出手救了他们。

I think the venture deals that I respect most of all are the ones that I hear about from my funds, where their company was not doing well at all, and a VC came in and saved them.

创始人对这种帮助的感激之情，真的非常强烈。

And the amount of gratitude, I think, that founders have for something like that is extreme.

在公司处境艰难、争议很大、数据一路下滑的时候还能出手，这种行为需要极大的勇气。在风投行业，做这种难事的人太少了，很遗憾。

The amount of courage it takes to do something where the company might be contentious or controversial, or the metrics might be going the wrong direction, not the right direction, that type of behavior, I think, is hard, and I think doing the hard thing in venture is rare, unfortunately.

但说真的，如果你知道对方几天内就能把交易敲定，你宁愿跟一个不太熟的人合作吗？

But genuinely then, you would rather do a deal with someone you don't really know if it's in a few days?

我唯一了解的是，他们办事效率特别高。

The one thing I know about them is they can get deals done quickly.

没错，但他们也可能很讨厌。

Sure, but they can also be assholes.

这没错，我这辈子确实遇过不少糟糕的投资人。

That's true, and had plenty of bad investors in my life.

糟糕的投资人比没有投资人更糟，而且想甩掉他们很难。

Bad investor is much worse than no investor, and it's hard to get rid of them.

但关键是，如果你公司表现不错，定价又合理，主动去市场上找，交易很快就能搞定。

But the the thing is, if you're doing well and if you're pricing your company cheap and if you go out to market, you can get a deal done very quickly.

这只是一个事实。

It's just the fact.

为什么要浪费时间呢？

Why would you waste time?

你觉得你们公司定价偏低吗？

Do you think you price your deal your company cheaply?

是的。

Yeah.

我们所有交易都定得比较低。

We price all our deals cheaply.

为什么呢？

Why?

别人看到我们公开的信息，可能不觉得是这样，但每次融资，我们其实都能拿到更高的估值。

I mean, people might not think that when they see, like, our our stuff posted, but I think, you know, we every round that we raise, we could raise at a higher valuation.

这一点我很确定。

I'm very sure of that.

如果不这么做，会不会损害现有投资人的利益？

Are you not doing a disservice to your existing investors by not?

我觉得不会。

I don't think so.

他们也都拿到了不错的条件。

They all got good deals too.

你知道，如果我们是上市公司，估值可能反而更低，因为公开市场不懂怎么评估高增长或潜力。

You know, if we if we were a public company, we'd probably be worth less because the the public markets don't know how to evaluate high growth or potential.

你跟我详细说说这个。

Talk to me about that.

你看看公开市场的金融服务公司。

Look at the financial services companies on the public markets.

它们都表现得很差。

They're all terrible.

它们都不增长，但你知道，它们的估值倒是挺稳的，或者说是

They all don't grow, but they you know, they're they're good for like priced or

它们的估值真的合理吗？毕竟不增长，利润率还低。

are they actually accurately priced because they don't grow and they have poor margins?

有些公司的利润率其实还不错。

Some of them have good margins.

你知道吧，他们其实赚钱的。

You know, they make money.

在我看来，私募市场更像在为增长估值，而公开市场则更像是在为现金流定价。

Private markets feel to me like they're a vehicle for for valuing growth, whereas public markets feel like they're a vehicle for valuing, like, cash flow.

过去我们管这个叫分红股。

In the past, we'd call, like, dividend stocks.

如果你是个想追求高回报的投资者，可能就不那么占优势了，因为你很难接触到私募项目。

You know, maybe that's not so favorable if you're looking for asymmetric upside and are an investor because you don't have access to, you know, private deals as much.

但从公司自身的角度看，情况就不一样了。

But certainly from a company perspective.

你不觉得，最终所有公司的价值都体现在未来的自由现金流上吗？

Do you not think at some point all companies are an embodiment of their future free cash flow?

公司估值不就是这么回事吗？

That is what a company valuation is?

我不这么认为，毕竟从理论上讲，也许在某个终极节点是这样，但品牌和企业身份本身也是有價值的。

No, I don't think so because, I mean, maybe at some terminal point from a theoretical perspective, but brand is worth something and identity is worth something.

你为什么买一块劳力士手表，而不是买一块中国仿制的劳力士？

Why do you buy a a Rolex watch instead of a a Chinese copy of a Rolex watch?

它们的材质可能一模一样，或者其他方面也都差不多。

They might be the same materials or the same whatever.

两块表都能看时间。

Both tell the time.

如果你有花不完的钱，你会做些什么你现在没做的事？

If I gave you unlimited money, what would you do that you're not doing today?

比如说，我会去开一级方程式赛车。

So for an example, I'd be on the side of an f one car.

我会去日本开一家店。

I would be opening Japan.

如果你有花不完的钱，我觉得你肯定有更重要的事要做，而不是去当F1赛车的陪跑。

If you had unlimited money, I think you'd have, you know, bigger things to do than than be on the side of an f one car.

对吧？

Right?

不过说实话，我特别想做很多事情。

But, I mean, there there's a lot of things I'd I'd love to do.

比如在Corgi这个领域，现在那些极度监管的金融机构，还在用传真机，操作的都是老一辈的人。

Like, I think within the context of Corgi, like, every single, like, super, super regulated, like, financial institution type, where right now it's, like, run on, like, fax machines with, like, boomers.

我们希望能让这些机构别再浪费大家的时间，降低收费，让整个系统更安全、更高效，也更有利可图。

Like, we'd like to, like, you know, have those not waste people's time and charge less fees and make everything a little more protected and a little more efficient and a little more profitable.

抛开这个领域，我本身是个技术乐观派。

I think outside of that context, I'm a techno optimist.

我坚信技术有能力在众多行业里让这个世界变得更好。

I believe very strongly in the power of technology to make the world a better place across a wide variety of industry sectors.

Corgi主要押注在监管最严的领域，但几乎没什么问题是技术解决不了的，医疗和心理健康这些方向其实特别有潜力。

Corgi is a bet mostly on the most regulated sectors, but there's very few problems that technology can't solve, and probably there's a lot of areas that are exciting, like in medicine and mental health.

现在好多领域同时面临危机，我觉得技术完全能帮上大忙。

There's crises in a lot of concurrent areas where I think technology can make things a lot better.

五年后，你觉得我们目前没有、但会变得很普遍的角色会是什么？

What role do we not have today that you think we will have and be very commonplace in five years' time?

我不确定是不是某个具体的角色，但我觉得AI让销售和营销变得比过去重要多了。

I don't know if it's like a role in particular, but I think that actually AI makes sales and marketing much more important than it was in the past.

过去呢，如果你有个特别扎实、技术超强的工程和产品团队，做出的东西就能直接惊艳所有人。

In the past, I think, if you had a really rock solid, like super hardcore engineering and product team, you could come out with something that would just like blow everyone away.

那东西会更快。

It'd be faster.

而且更好用。

It'd be better.

现在你也能做出更快、更好的产品。

Now you can make something faster and better.

但如果你不让人去卖、不去推广、不去告诉大家它的存在，那这产品根本值不了多少钱。

You know, you don't want people to sell it or to market it or to tell people that it exists, it's not really worth the whole lot.

尤其是B2B产品的发布，现在几乎不再有以前那种自然的传播效应了。

There's like organic network effects around particularly B2B product launches just don't really exist in the same way that they used to.

你觉得传统的B2B营销做得怎么样？

Do you think traditional B2B marketing is good?

我觉得传统的B2B销售还不错。

I think traditional B2B sales is good.

我觉得市场营销简直一团糟。

I think marketing is awful.

为什么？

Why?

B2B领域其实可以向消费行业学不少东西。

There's a lot that B2B could learn from consumer.

那些展会根本不是办法。

The conferences are not it.

我不喜欢跑去一间屋子里，跟一群满身是汗的人瞎混。

Like, I'm not a fan of going and hanging out with a bunch of sweaty people in a room.

我真的不感兴趣。

I don't really like that.

消费类公司把营销玩得明明白白，而B2B公司则把销售做到了极致。

I think that consumer companies have perfected marketing and B2B companies have perfected sales.

就像一家公司主打一款产品，这款产品几乎就成了公司的代名词，其他次要的收入来源就很难让人上心了。

Much like in a company where you have a dominant product, how that kind of becomes the company, and it's hard to really care that much about auxiliary revenue streams.

作为一个行业，如果你卖的是B2B产品，那肯定会把销售做得非常精通，而营销在大多数情况下往往被当成次要的事。

As an industry, if you're selling B2B products, you're gonna get very good at sales, and marketing will tend to be an afterthought in most instances.

我想来个快速问答，我每说一句简短的话，你马上说说你的第一反应。

I do want to move into a quick fire where I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.

这样可以吗？

Does that sound okay?

好啊，没问题。

Yeah, sure.

我觉得改变想法很重要。

So I think changing one's mind is important.

过去一年里，你有哪些想法是彻底改变了的？

What have you changed your mind on in the last twelve months?

我改变想法的地方可多了。

There's a lot I've changed my mind on.

我越来越重视经验了。

I've grown to value experience a lot more.

以前吧，我可能说过一些关于婴儿潮一代反应慢、能力差的话，也确实低估了那些长期做同一件事的人，因为很多时候，他们掌握着一些细微的技巧或者特殊情况。

In the past, you know, I've probably made certain statements around boomers being slow and bad, or I've definitely undervalued people that have been doing something for a long time, because a lot of times there's these little nuances or edge cases.

一个人干得久了，就会积累很多东西，也许没那么快、没那么高效，也不太会用最新的工具，但老一辈，尤其是即将退休的人，身上藏着惊人的知识量。我觉得现在最大的问题在于，有上万亿美元的潜力等着被挖掘——把这些人脑子里的知识提取出来，放进能思考、能对话的系统里。

When you do something for a long time, you pick up, and maybe you're not as fast or as efficient or as able to use the latest tools, but there's an extraordinary amount of knowledge that lives in kind of the older generations, especially the retiring ones, and I think it's a big problem in that there's trillions of dollars to make getting that knowledge out and putting it inside of computers that can think and talk.

我以前没从这个角度看待过这些问题。

I don't think I viewed those problems in that lens.

以前我觉得，老年人用传真机、行动迟缓，就是纯粹的坏事，但现在我明白了。

Know, I think I just considered old people using fax machines moving at two miles per hour to be, like, you know, something uniformly bad, but now I see

他们的知识其实很有价值。

that there's value in their knowledge.

如果你能请任何一个人加入董事会，最想请谁？

Who do you not have on the board that you would most like to have on the board?

我不太喜欢董事会。

I don't like boards.

为什么？

Why?

我信奉由管理层直接做决定。

I believe in executive decision making.

我们董事会其实挺好的，各种前提都先说好，但归根结底，你得能拍板，能动手干。

You know, our board's great and yada yada yada, all the disclaimers, but I think you just need to be able to decide, and you need to be able to do things.

你觉得马斯克或者扎克伯格会在意董事会怎么想吗？你真觉得他们会说，‘好了，各位’？

You think Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg are caring what their board thinks or their board you know, you think that they're like, alright, guys.

咱们开个会吧。

Let's huddle up.

咱们赶紧做个决定。

Let's, like, make a decision.

我觉得所有靠委员会投票的决定，都是扯淡。

Like, every committee decision, I think, is, like, BS.

有时候你必须敢站出来，哪怕不受欢迎，也得坚定地亮出自己的立场。

Like, sometimes you need to be able to take an unpopular stance, and you just need to be able to plant your flag in the ground.

董事会只是走个形式吗？

Is the board a check the box?

我觉得是吧，有一点吧。

I think so, a little bit.

就是，你知道的，有点像演戏。

Like, it's, you know, a little theatrical.

至少能确保你不是骗子，也没在干明目张胆的违法事。

I guess it's good to make sure you're not, like, a scam or, like, doing, like, blatantly illegal stuff.

但如果管理层本身就够无耻，想骗人或者违法，那有没有董事会他们照样干，这根本是管理问题。

But if management is, like, unethical or unscrupulous enough to scam people or do illegal stuff, then they're gonna do it anyways probably with or without a board, that's a management problem.

今天你可以用同样的价格900万美元买到OpenAI或者Anthropic。

You can buy OpenAI or Anthropic today, both at the same price, 900.

你会选哪一个？

Which one do you choose?

我这么说可能要挨骂，但得先说明一下，这可能是我说的偏好，而不是实际选择——毕竟我们现在每个月花在Anthropic上的钱大概40万美元，而对OpenAI是一分没花。

Yeah, I'm gonna get in trouble for this probably, but I guess the disclaimer is this might be a stated preference versus a revealed preference given that we spend maybe, like, $400,000 per month on Anthropic and $0 on OpenAI at the moment.

但我觉得，从精神层面来说，OpenAI 更纯粹一些，毕竟他们是最早提出‘AI实验室作为公司’这个概念的，从 YC Research 就开始了。

But I think that, like, spiritually, like, OpenAI is, I guess, little more pure because they kind of created, you know, this idea of, like, a AI lab as a company, getting all the way back to YC Research.

而 Anthropic 的诞生，是因为一些员工对管理层或公司方向不满意。

And, you know, Anthropic is a result of, you know, employees that didn't like the management or the direction.

当时有人抱怨利润导向、伦理问题，还有 EA 运动之类的各种事。

There were complaints about profit and ethics and all this other stuff, and, you know, the EA movement and all of that.

当你起步的时候就带着这些杂质，想要超越领头羊，确实挺难的。

You know, I think when you're, like, when your origins are that impure, it's a little hard to overtake the king.

说实话，目前 Anthropic 在执行上已经甩开 OpenAI 了。

And, you know, right now, Anthropic, frankly speaking, has been out executing OpenAI.

他们的产品明显更优秀。

Their product's much better.

我们用的都是最好的产品。

We use the best product.

无论哪个领域，至少从企业级或工作流自动化的角度看，Anthropic 都更胜一筹，所以 OpenAI 得赶紧追上。

In every category, at least from an enterprise or, like, workflow automation perspective, Anthropic's better, so OpenAI needs to lock in.

你回头用回它们的产品，容易吗？

Easy is it for you to switch back?

我觉得没那么难，不过各家实验室总想让我们签合同，只要他们给的token折扣够大，我们还是会考虑的。

I don't think it'd be that hard, although all of the labs are always trying to make us sign contracts, and if they give us a big enough discount on tokens, then we'd consider it.

现在没人讨论，但你最近越来越在意的是什么？

What is no one talking about that you're spending more and more time thinking about?

在我看来，公司就分两种：优秀的，和其余的。

To me, there's good companies and there's everyone else.

真正优秀的公司非常少，而那种想赢、能改变世界的公司，一百年后人们还会提起。

I think the number of good companies is very small, and a good company wants to win is world historic will be talked about in, like, a hundred years.

这样的公司之所以少，是因为大多数人并不真想赢。

Those companies, you know, there's just not many of them because people don't wanna win.

他们不愿意付出努力。

They don't wanna put in the work.

他们不想，这也没关系。

They don't wanna and that's okay.

觉得平庸、随大流也没什么大不了的。

Like, it's okay to be average and part of the mediocre masses or whatever.

这样也没问题。

That's alright.

但我认为，那些优秀公司的文化或内在特质，其实被严重低估了。

But I think that the cultural or internal kind of character of the companies that are good companies is something that's not appreciated enough.

从本质上看，Androil 和 Anthropic 这两家公司差别巨大。

From a metaphysical level, there's a really big difference between Androil and, like, Anthropic.

对吧？

Right?

这两家公司真的完全不一样。

Those are, like, super different companies.

我觉得它们都有可能成为优秀公司，但人们根本没搞清楚自己投资的管理团队背后的理念。

I think both those could be good companies, but I I don't think people really understand the philosophy behind the management teams that they're investing in.

你觉得谁是最被低估的首席执行官，Stae？

Who do you think is the most underappreciated CEO, Stae?

你看看自己的风格，谁最跟你相似？

When you look at your style, who most aligns to your style?

我的风格就是我自己的风格。

My style is my own style.

我就想做真实的自己。

I try to just do me.

其实有很多特别被低估的CEO，尤其是在风险投资公司之外的领域，我更希望看到风投机构多出来谈谈这些重要的议题。

I think there's plenty of super underappreciated CEOs that, like one area where more more than kind of venture backed companies, what what I would love to see more of are venture funds, you know, speaking out about these sort of important topics.

我知道初创创始人总爱调侃风投，说他们对某些话题其实懂不了多少，但我觉得风投机构其实很有发言权，尽管他们得向有限合伙人募资，而LP们也确实能施压。

And I know, like, startup founders love to clown on VCs for chiming in about, like, topics that they might not know a lot about, but I think that venture funds are actually in, you know, despite the fact that they're, you know, need to raise from LPs, and LPs, you know, can crack the whip or whatever.

我觉得风投机构其实处在非常有利的位置，能影响整个创业生态的走向，因为他们掌握着激励机制，而激励往往决定行为。

Like I think that venture funds are in a really strong position to influence the way that the startup ecosystem looks, because they're setting the incentives, and incentives often drive behavior.

我特别希望看到风投的负责人或掌舵者，能更主动地把投资方向跟他们想看到的社会改变对齐。

One thing I would love to see are the CEOs or the people that are running venture funds actually taking a more active stance in aligning their deployed capital with the changes that they'd like to see in the world.

在我看来，这比任何一家公司的CEO或管理团队都更关键，从宏观角度来说。

And to me, that's perhaps a more important issue than, like, any particular company's CEO or management team, broadly speaking.

你会把欺诈行为激增，尤其是关于ARR的，归咎于风投吗？

Would you blame VCs for the dramatic increase we've seen in fraud, especially around ARR?

我们太看重在短时间内从零做到一亿了，难怪创始人会撒谎。

We put so much emphasis on zero to 100,000,000 in X amount of time, no wonder founders lie.

我们看到的很多欺诈问题，其实根源在于对头衔的迷信，或者说是对合法性的过度追求。

I I mean, like, a lot of the issues with fraud we've seen are downstream of, like, credentialism or that quest for, like, legitimacy in a lot of ways.

我不会点名具体哪些欺诈案例，但我想你心里肯定能想到几个符合这些特征的。

You know, I'm I'm not gonna speak about specific frauds, but I'm sure some come to mind that kind of check those boxes.

我觉得风投确实负有部分责任，但作为投资人，投完之后能做的其实非常有限。

I think VCs are partially responsible, but as a venture investor, after you invest in a company, there's very little you can do.

如果管理层本就品行不端，打算骗人，产品根本没法用，那他们搞欺诈，你真不该替他们背锅。

So if the management is unscrupulous, is going to be scamming people, the product doesn't actually work or whatever, then I don't think you're really responsible for that management team committing fraud.

回过头看，几年前很多加密货币投资者会鼓励创始人承担巨大个人风险，甚至包括刑事责任，然后趁机炒作代币。

I think on the extreme, you have, if you go back in time a couple years, a lot of the crypto investors would encourage company founders to take on quite a lot of personal liability, including criminal liability in many cases, and basically they'd be like arbitraging that and pumping the tokens or whatever.

现在回头看，那些代币本身就不该被炒作，那种情况下，风投的责任确实更大一些。

In hindsight, I guess that was the wrong type of tokens to work on, and I think in those cases, probably venture investors bear more responsibility.

我觉得，把一些公司造假的责任归到YC这样的机构头上，方向上其实不太对，毕竟没有哪家风投真想投一个骗局。

I think that people blaming, like, you know, YC or whatever for some of their companies being frauds is probably not, like, directionally correct, because it's not like any venture fund really wants to, like, invest in a fraud.

那些做假的人特别擅长包装和掩饰，做得天衣无缝，尤其是当融资节奏很快的时候——而真正好的公司，融资本来就会很快。

And people that are, like, doing these things, they're very good at wrapping it up and disguising it in such a way that it will pass muster, especially if a round is moving quick, which most good companies rounds do.

Corgi项目上，第一个相信你的人是谁？

Who was your first believer with Corgi?

应该是YC的贾里德·弗里德曼。

Was probably Jared Friedman from YC.

是的。

Yeah.

有段时间，他是我们唯一的支持者。

There's been times where he was our only believer.

别人都持怀疑态度，唯独贾里德一直站在我们这边。

You know, everyone else is a doubter, is a naysayer, but Jared Jared's always been there for us.

你还会再参加一次YC吗？

Would you do YC again?

是的。

Yeah.

我还会再参加一次。

I'd do it again.

最后一个问题给你。

Final thing for you.

展望未来十年，你最期待的是什么？

What are you most excited for when you look forward to the next ten years?

你最盼望的是哪一件事？

What are you like, this I can't wait for.

这其实不太好说，因为如果你十年前问这个问题，当时人们特别兴奋的那些技术根本还不存在。

You know, it's a little hard to say because if you ask that ten years ago, the technology that people were really excited about didn't exist yet.

直到2022年底，随着ChatGPT 3.5的出现，大家才真正意识到大型语言模型有多么重要、多么令人兴奋。

It was only late twenty twenty two that people actually started getting, with ChatGPT 3.5, that large language models were obviously very important and very exciting.

在未来十年里，技术将会解决很多问题。

Like within the next ten years, technology will solve a lot of problems.

也许它也会带来一些新问题，但我认为它解决的问题会远多于制造的问题。

Perhaps it'll create some too, but I think it'll solve a lot more than it creates.

我觉得有些领域以前风险投资一直没搞起来，但未来可能会出现颠覆性的成果，甚至催生全新的行业，吸引聪明人去投身其中。

I think that there's certain areas where venture investing hasn't worked before, where there could be, like, category defining outcomes and where there could be new kind of industries where smart people are actually interested in going into.

比如生物学就是其中一个例子。

Like, biology is one that comes to mind.

我坚信，再过几年，我们可能会看到更多类似‘聊天小火花’的时刻，真正改变整个局面。

I just really strongly believe that, you know, we're gonna probably see more, like, chatty bitty moments maybe a couple years from now that that will really shake things up.

老兄，我得说，能请您来参加这个节目真是太棒了。

Dude, I have to say, it's been so wonderful having you on the show.

就像我开头说的，我一些最不被认同的观点，您完全认同，能遇到志同道合的朋友真好。

As I said at the beginning, some of my most unpopular beliefs, you align with completely, and so it's nice to have a kindred friend.

非常感谢您今天抽时间来和我交流。

Thank you so much for joining me today, man.

谢谢您的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

但在今天结束之前，假设你的健身房就在家里，那你会更健康，比你开车去的那家健身房效果还好。

But before we leave you today, so what if your gym was already home, but one, I'd probably be a lot fitter and actually better than the gym you're driving to.

说实话，这听起来真不错。

Sounds pretty good, to be honest.

这就是AMP，一款壁挂式的智能健身设备，把力量训练、高强度间歇训练、普拉提、柔韧性和瑜伽整合成一个出色的系统。

Well, that's AMP, a beautiful wall mounted smart gym that brings strength training, HIIT, Pilates, mobility, and yoga into one incredible system.

不用通勤、不占空间、不用配合时间表，AMP会适应你，提供个性化训练、AI指导、自动调节重量，还能追踪真实进展，设计也完全融入你的家居和生活。

Without the commute, the clutter, or the schedule, AMP adapts to you, personalized gains, AI coaching, automatic weight adjustments, and real progress tracking, all in a design that fits your home and your life.

我们20 VC工作室里就有一台。

We actually have one right here in the 20 VC Studio.

我特别爱利用短短十五分钟练练二头肌，虽然看视频可能看不出来。

I'm a complete sucker for fitting in a quick fifteen minute bicep pump, which you wouldn't tell from watching the videos.

整个团队都在用，现在没人再惦记去健身房了。

The whole team, though, has been using it, and no one is now missing the gym.

所以AMP已经有两万多名用户，荣获2026年《福布斯》认证最佳产品奖，还被《快公司》、《今日美国》等媒体争相报道。

It's why AMP has over 20,000 users, won the 2026 Forbes vetted best product award, and was featured in Fast Company, USA Today, and more.

你得练得更聪明，而且现在就得开始。

You need to train better, and you need to start today.

去 amp.ai 开始你的训练吧。

Go to amp.ai to get started.

就是 amp.ai。

That's amp.ai.

AMP 记录你的训练组数，Granola 记录你的会议要点。

While amp fitness logs your sets, granola logs your cools.

你一整天都在连轴转的开会。

You're in back to back meetings all day.

你努力保持专注，可又怕忘了关键决定、待办事项，或者下一步该做什么。

You're trying to stay present, but you're also worried you'll forget the decision, the action item, the important next step.

这时候，Granola 就派上用场了。

That's where granola comes in.

Granola 是专为会议设计的 AI 笔记工具。

Granola is an AI powered notepad for meetings.

你还是像往常一样随手记点笔记，而Granola在后台自动转录，等会议结束时，就把这些笔记整理成清晰有用的要点。

You jot down rough notes like you always do, and in the background, granola transcribes and turns them into really clear useful notes when the meeting ends.

没有老板突然加入你的通话。

No boss joining your call.

没有任何干扰。

No distractions.

只有一个干净简洁的记事本，帮你专心专注。

Just a clean notepad that helps you focus.

会议中或会后，你都可以和你的笔记对话。

During or after the call, you can chat with your notes.

你可以问Granola提取行动项、帮你谈判、甚至写一封跟进邮件，或者用预设的提示模板来指导你。

Ask granola to pull out action items, help you negotiate, write a follow-up email even, or coach you using recipes, which are premade prompts.

这其实和我们做播客笔记用的是同一套技术。

It's actually the same technology we use to create our podcast notes.

只要你用它开过一次会，就再也回不去了。

Once you try it on a first meeting, it's really hard to go back.