20VC：开源模型 vs 前沿模型：谁真正胜出？| 每位工程师都需要的10万美元令牌预算 | 为什么前移工程师是企业AI的未来——与Sierra联合创始人Clay Bavor对话

以前是写代码。

It used to be writing code.

现在大概是审代码。

Now it's probably reviewing code.

很快就要变成决定哪些东西值得做，以及把可能存在的东西调整成应该存在的样子。

Pretty soon it will be deciding what is worth building and editing kind of what could exist to what should exist.

这里面的变化会很有意思。

The dynamics there will be interesting.

我觉得对我们来说，一个关键问题是：如果所有东西都稍微有点被夸大了，那未来开发者薪资中有多少比例会花在令牌上？

I think the cool question for us to understand if if everything is slightly overhyped is what percent of developer salary will be spent on tokens in the future?

马克·贝尼奥夫提到大公司时说，他每年在Anthropic上为开发团队花三亿美元。

Marc Benioff, you said larger companies, said that he spends 300,000,000 a year on Anthropic for his dev teams.

算下来大约占开发者薪资的3.8%。

That works out about 3.8% of developer salaries.

其实没听起来那三亿美元那么吓人。

Not actually as much as the headline 300,000,000 makes you feel.

如果维持在3.8%，我们投资和看到的很多公司实际上都被严重高估了。

If it stays at 3.8%, a lot of the companies that we're investing in and see around us are actually grossly overvalued.

如果涨到20%，那它们就被低估了。

If it goes to 20%, they're undervalued.

我请过麦科里的布兰登来节目里聊过，他说他花在令牌上的钱比付给员工的工资还多。

And I had Brandon at McCore on the show who says he spends more on tokens than he does headcount.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得3.8%离最终的稳定水平差得太远了。

I think 3.8% is wildly off from where the steady state will converge.

你认为会到20%吗？我不指望你五年后还能记得，但你觉得有可能吗？

Where do you think it I'm not going hold you to it in five years' time, but do you see it being a 20%?

我觉得会。

Oh, I do.

我也觉得会。

I do.

所以这100美元

So the $100

每年其实会变得正常，因为你想想硅谷里顶尖的开发者，我猜他们的薪资大概在50万美元左右？

a year actually will be normalized, because you think about a great dev in the valley, I presume 500 ks dollars is kind of where they're at?

没错，那已经是顶配了。

Sure, that would be the upper end.

所以感觉还挺正常的。

So it feels kind of normal.

是的。

Yeah,

我不觉得利率会停留在3.8%。

I would not bet on 3.8%.

我更看好它接近20%。

I would bet on much closer to 20%.

在软件工程领域，我觉得收益的提升是显而易见的。

In software engineering, the gains to me seem unequivocally there.

你可以讨论，到底是两倍、十倍还是二十倍？

You can debate, is it 2x, 10x, 20x?

哪怕只是两倍，好吧，这实际上就等于让你的工程团队规模翻了一番。

Even if it's 2x, okay, you've just effectively doubled the size of your engineering team.

这非常了不起。

That's remarkable.

你提到过，Fortune 500 的企业是客户。

You mentioned the fortieth, Fortune 50 being customers.

你在很多营销材料里都经常提到这一点。

You use that quite a lot in a lot of your marketing materials.

这让我觉得你们是一家非常典型的大企业。

And it strikes me as like a very enterprise company.

当公司规模变得这么大、这么企业化之后，要保持对产品的专注，以及和客户保持紧密的联系，是不是很难？你是怎么做的呢？

Is it difficult, or how do you retain a real product focus, a real closeness to customers when you're so enterprise?

很难吗？

Difficult?

我觉得你这里设定了一个虚假的二选一。

I think it's a little bit of a false choice you're implying there.

大企业并不意味着就得跟客户保持距离。

I think being large enterprise doesn't necessarily mean you need to be distant from your customers.

在我们这儿，客户的是客户的客户。

In our case, our customers' customers.

所以，布雷特和我一直在亲自开发各种智能体。

So, Brett and I are constantly building agents ourselves.

过去六个月里，有一件事特别有意思，我们推出了Ghostwriter。

One of the more interesting things of the last six months, we released Ghostwriter.

这是一个用来构建智能体的智能体。

This is an agent for building agents.

可以说是智能体层层嵌套。

It's kind of agents all the way down.

挺厉害的。

It's pretty cool.

但我们自己一直深度参与产品开发。

But we are constantly in the products ourselves.

布雷特实际上依然是个极其出色的软件工程师。

And Brett is actually still an extraordinarily capable software engineer.

这真的令人印象深刻。

It's remarkable.

所以，那些上线的代码里，有不少是他写的。

So, you know, some of the code that is in production, right, he has written.

我可能就改过几行，但完全没法跟他比。

I've probably got a couple lines here or there, but it pales in comparison.

当然，单靠我们自己，没法模拟出许多大型企业客户那种复杂的多系统环境。

And so, of course, we can't, on our own, simulate the complex multisystem environments that characterize many of our largest enterprise customers.

所以我们只能在脑子里去推演这些场景。

So that, you know, we have to kind of simulate in our heads.

但我们都实实在在地泡在产品里。

But we're in the product.

而且我觉得，很快我们就会成为规模最大的B2C公司之一。

And then one of the things I think a lot about is we will, in short order, be in a way one of the larger B2C companies.

我们是通过客户实现这一点的。

We're doing that via our customers.

我们每天处理数亿次交互，对吧？

We're serving hundreds of millions of interactions, right?

很快就会达到上百亿次交互。

Soon billions of interactions.

所以，我们也要紧紧贴近最终用户的体验。

So, staying close to the end experience there as well.

语音的流畅度、延迟、体验的质量——这些方面都让人充满干劲，而且我们就在前线。

Voice fluency, latency, the quality of the experience, all of that stuff is very energizing and things that we're close to.

因此，无论是从客户的角度，还是从他们用户的视角来看，我都觉得离产品一点都不远。

So, I don't feel distant from the product, either from our customers' perspective or from their customers' perspective.

我一直以来都盯着这个领域，心想：这真是个了不起的市场，规模太大了，问题也够棘手，而AI恰恰最擅长解决这种问题。

I always looked at the space itself, and I was like, Amazing space, what a huge TAM, what a problem, and AI perfectly suited for it.

然后我偷偷看了看幕后，发现居然有十几家公司，每家都拿到了一亿美元的投资，比如Salesforce、Atlassian、Zendesk，还有其他那些老牌企业，天哪。

And then I kind of peek under the covers, and I'm like, oh my god, like 15 companies funded with $100,000,000 Salesforce, Atlassian, Zendesk, all the other incumbents, oh my god.

这个领域的市场成熟度到底怎么样？

What is the market maturation of this space?

你能帮我分析一下，未来五到十年，这个领域会怎么发展吗？

Help me understand how this evolves in like a five to ten year period.

是的，首先说个显而易见的事，身处一个巨大的市场，最大的好处就是它真的很大。

Yeah, I think first of all, to state the obvious, the great thing about being in a giant market is it's a giant market.

但身处巨大市场的挑战也在于，它真的太大了，而且别人都看得清清楚楚。

The challenging thing about being in a giant market is it's a giant market, and other folks know it too.

不只是初创公司，还有那些老牌企业，全是竞争对手。

And it's startups, it's longstanding companies, it's the incumbents.

所以你说竞争激烈，这点完全没错。

And so, your point on it being competitive is certainly right.

五年、十年，尤其是在我们现在的这个时代，时间可不短。

Five or ten years, especially, you know, in the age that we're in, is a long time.

我觉得关键在于，初创公司之间，客户正在用实际行动投票。

I think what I would point to is amongst the startups, customers are voting with their feet.

我们的规模已经远超其他同阶段的竞争对手，增长速度也更快，而且合作的都是全球顶尖企业。

So, we are at multiple larger size than one of our next nearest similar vintage startup competitors, growing faster, as I said, working with many of the great companies in the world.

你觉得这是像Uber和Lyft这样的市场，还是像AWS、谷歌云、Azure那样的市场？

Do you think it's like an UberLift market, or do you think it's an AWS, Google Cloud, Azure market?

这点很难说准。

It's hard to know.

因为平台在深度和广度上的规模效应，加上对特定行业的经验积累，会不断叠加放大。

I think because the economies of scale in terms of depth and breadth of platform, experience in specific industry verticals and so on, really compounds.

我猜最终会更像Uber和Lyft这样的格局。

My hunch is it will be more like an Uber, Lyft market.

而我们显然觉得自己处在领先位置，有望成为其中更大的那一个。

And we obviously think we're in the pole position to be the bigger of

这两个中的一个。

those two.

我们服务的客户中，有不少是全球最大的企业。

Again, we sell some of the biggest enterprises in the world.

前几天我请了一位嘉宾来节目，他说，不搞企业级销售，根本进不了大企业。

I had a guest on the show the other day say, You can't sell to enterprise without an FDE motion.

以你现在对这行的了解，尤其是已经拿下50家里的40家，你认同这个说法吗？

Would you agree with that, knowing all that you know now, selling to 40 of the 50?

在人工智能领域，我觉得我们其实是重新发现并借鉴了Palantir的模式。

We, I would like to think, at least in the AI space, I would say rediscovered and borrowed this model from Palantir.

我们几乎是无意中走到这一步的。

And we came to it almost accidentally.

公司刚成立时，我们第一件事就是联系那些我们信任的人，问他们眼下最头疼的难题是什么。

So, we started the company, and the first thing we did was reach out to people we trusted to understand what are the biggest unsolved problems that you were looking at.

结果发现，服务和支持其实是个很好的切入点，能帮客户贯穿整个生命周期。

And saw, oh, interesting, service and support as a foothold into something much broader, helping support customers across the entire lifecycle.

之后，我们找了六家设计合作伙伴，一起打磨出我们产品和平台的第一个版本。

We then enlisted half a dozen design partners that we built the first version of our product and platform with and for.

这些公司在公司历史上都是传奇级别的企业。

And these are, in the history of the company, legendary, legendary companies.

Olakai、SiriusXM、Sonos、健力宝。

Olakai, SiriusXM, Sonos, Weight Watchers.

我们和工程师深度嵌入这些公司，一起打造了平台的第一个版本。

We built the first version of our platform with our engineers deeply embedded inside those companies.

甚至我们的创始工程师米海，当时真的是健力宝的员工，还收到过他们的绩效评估邮件之类的。

So much so that our founding engineer, Mihai, was actually an employee of Weight Watchers, including getting like its performance review time emails and so on.

我们当时意识到，从来没有人真正部署过一个AI代理。

What we realized in that was no one has ever deployed an AI agent.

也从来没有人以这种方式把AI直接推到客户面前。

No one has ever put AI in this way in front of their customers.

为了能最快地做出最棒的产品，满足我们和客户的需求，我们必须贴近业务、了解运作机制、熟悉相关人员和他们的商业模式——虽然不敢说比客户自己还懂，

And in order for us to build the best thing as quickly as we and our customers would like, being so close to the business, the mechanics of it, the people, their business model, that we understand it, I won't say as well as our customers.

但正是这种贴近，让我们看到了巨大的潜力。

But approaching that, we saw so much power in that.

所以从2024年初开始，我们真正开始组建这支前移部署团队。

So, starting in early twenty twenty four, we really started building out this Forward-Deployed team.

客户们用它的方式多种多样。

Customers use it in widely ranging ways.

我们的平台高度可扩展，而且非常透明。

Our platform is highly extensible and very transparent.

你可以清楚地看到一个智能体是如何搭建起来的。

You can see exactly how an agent is built.

你可以导出智能体的定义，完全自己从头构建一个。

You can export agent definitions and completely build your own.

如果你不需要前移部署服务，完全可以不用。

So, no need for Forward Deployed if you don't want it.

不过我们通常发现，刚开始时，让西耶拉和我们的团队开车，客户坐在副驾驶位上，帮他们规划第一版的路线，效果最好。

What we generally find, though, is in getting started, having Sierra and help from our teams kind of drive while our customer is in the passenger seat, but navigating for the first version.

这让我们能用六周时间就把Next这样的公司顺利上线。

It's what has enabled us to take companies like Next live in six weeks.

从启动到上线，使用他们自己的电话号码和聊天功能，只用了六周。

From kickoff to live behind their phone number and chat in six weeks.

还有Cigna，对，全球最大的医疗公司之一，上线只用了五十八天左右。

Or Cigna, right, one of the largest healthcare companies in the world, live in I think it was fifty eight days.

所以，从上市速度、产生影响的速度，到实现价值的速度，再加上最终成果的质量，我们认为这差别很大。

And so, time to market, time to impact, time to value, and then the quality of the result, we think it makes a big difference.

不过，你刚才说的这种非黑即白的说法，我并不完全认同。

I wouldn't say it's binary, though, as you framed it.

当然，没有前向部署团队，你照样能卖产品。

I do think you can sell without a Forward-Deployed team.

但要想尽快、最大限度地发挥这项技术的潜力，前向部署团队真的至关重要。

But I think for getting to the impact of this technology as quickly as possible and at the magnitude that we know is possible, boy, is it an important catalyst.

我们是不是正处在一个特殊的历史时刻，买家恰好在这个时候对这类产品感兴趣？

Are we at a unique time in history where for this specific moment in time, buyer is in the market for the product?

通常来说，并不是所有人都在同一时间对某个产品感兴趣。

Normally, not everyone is in the market for a product at the same time.

每个首席执行官都被董事会问：你们是怎么用人工智能的？

Every CEO is being told by their board, How are you using AI?

现在这个时刻，买家对这类产品的需求前所未有，这是不是独一无二的时机？

Is it a unique time because there is buyer pull like never before for this specific moment?

我觉得，目前有两个领域的市场需求几乎是无限的。

There is effectively unbounded demand, I think, in two areas.

第一，我们之前聊过编程代理。

One, we've talked about coding agents.

第二，这是我们占据领先地位的领域。

The other is a space where we're the category leader.

我们能这么快成长，就是为了抓住这个机遇，满足这种需求。

One of the reasons we've grown as quickly as we have is to meet that moment and meet that demand.

我们现在在欧洲已经有100人了。

We're now 100 people here in Europe.

我们最近收购了一家日本公司，叫Opera Technologies。

We recently acquired a company in Japan, Opera Technologies.

你和我之前聊过，为了在那边迅速起步，得组建一支能把握日本文化细节的团队。

You You and I were talking about this to hit the ground running there and to have a team that can be attuned to the cultural nuances of Japan.

比如‘おもてなし’这种极致待客之道，这在日本服务行业是基本要求，我们就是要在那里打造这样的体验。

You know, the concept of Omotanashi, which is extreme hospitality, that is what is expected in Japanese service, and that's what we intend to build there.

从

Starting with the

客户支持和服务这个切入点开始。

kind of beachhead in customer support and customer service.

要想把公司发展成你理想中的样子，就得从客户服务扩展到完整的客户生命周期管理。

To scale into the company you want to be, you have to move out of customer support into complete lifecycle management, I guess.

未来，Sierra 会成为一个销售平台吗？

Is Sierra a sales platform in the future?

它会是一个转化平台吗？

Is it a conversion platform?

它会成为一个营销平台吗？

Is it a marketing platform?

它到底是什么？

What is it?

我觉得 Rocket 其实很好地体现了我们未来的方向。

I think Rocket is actually a pretty good indicator of the direction that we're headed.

想想 Rocket 客户的一生，最初是从寻找和发现他们可能想买的房子开始的。

You think about the life of a Rocket customer, it begins with search and discovery of a home they might want to buy.

我们和 Redfin 合作，重新设计了他们的房源搜索体验。

We worked with Redfin to rethink their search experience.

我们帮助 Rocket 联系那些有再融资意向的人，主动建立联系。

We help Rocket reach out to folks who've expressed interest in a refinance, make contact that way.

我们帮他们开发了 Rocket Assist，用来吸引客户，协助他们确定贷款金额和类型，收集所有必要的信息等等。

We worked with them to build Rocket Assist to help bring people in and help them shape and size their loan, gather all the information needed, and so on.

这些都不属于客户服务或支持的范畴。

None of that is service and support.

我们当然也做客户服务，对吧？

We do do that, right?

贷款服务之类的。

Loan servicing and so on.

所以，我觉得这很好地说明了未来的发展方向。

So, I think that's a good example of where things are headed.

这简直就是一种主动获客的机器。

That's an inbound sales machine.

主动和被动，你说得对。

Inbound and outbound, you're right.

这不仅仅是Rocket一家的事。

And it's not just Rocket alone.

接下来，我们会帮他们做个性化的产品推荐。

Next, we work with them on personalized product recommendations.

你怎么帮用户搭配出一套他们真正喜欢的完整组合？

How do you help someone build an outfit, a bigger basket of things they will love?

这 again 更偏向销售，而不是支持。

Again, that's much more sales than support.

所以

So

这听起来和感觉上更像是一家面向消费者的版富达500强公司，像是Palantir，但你们在为这些产品打造真正贴合客户需求的出色解决方案。

This sounds and feels more like a 50, Fortune 500 Palantir, but more consumerized, where you're building these amazing solutions for these products to fit their needs.

我这么说公平吗？

Is that unfair of me?

首先，Palantir是一家非常了不起的公司。

First of all, Palantir is an amazing company.

我们在Forward Deployed模式上借鉴了不少他们的做法。

We have taken a lot of inspirationcopied from them elements of our Forward Deployed approach.

据我了解，Palantir的客户数量只有几百家左右。

My understanding is Palantir has kind of low hundreds of customers.

我们的目标是要做到比他们大得多的规模。

We are and intend to be at a lot larger scale than that.

我认为这主要会来自于我们在特定行业领域里建立起真正的专业能力。

And I think where that will come from in particular is building real domain expertise in specific industry verticals.

当然，我们的前三个客户部署，从定义上讲都是独一无二的。

You know, of course, our first, second and third customer deployments were by definition unique, one of a kind.

我觉得我们在零售和其他一些行业里，已经学到不少关于如何构建商品组合的经验。

I think we've learned some things about how to help build a basket in the retail setting and in some of these other industries.

比如怎么妥善处理医疗理赔的状态查询，或者储蓄账户收费相关的问题。

How best to handle a question about the status of a health care claim, a health care insurance claim, or questions about a fee around a checking account.

所以，我们会在各个行业里积累越来越深的洞察，并且能更广泛地应用这些经验。

And so, I think we're going to have these deeper and deeper lessons in specific industries and be able to apply those in much more scaled way.

你们会开发一些只适用于特定客户群体、不能通用的产品吗？

Will you build products that aren't uniformly applicable across customer bases?

比如说，如果有客户需要专门的购物车放弃功能，我们会为此开发吗？

So if one customer needs specific cart abandonment product features, is that something we build?

还是说，这种需求不属于平台的通用范围？

Or is it, no, that's not applicable to the platform?

我们在打造公司时的一个做法，其实跟我们一开始说的是一致的：你可以先搭建一个平台，然后等着用户自己找上门，对吧？

One of our approaches in building the company, and this kind of goes back to where we started, you can build a platform and hope that people come, right?

应用程序都是在这个平台上开发出来的。

The applications get developed on it.

或者你可以先开发一些应用，用它们来指导平台的建设，让后续第三、第四、第五个应用变得更容易做。

Or you can build applications to inform a platform that makes building the third, fourth, and fifth that much easier.

所以，只要有机会，我们都会去寻找能增强平台能力的点。

And so, wherever we can, we're scanning for opportunities to strengthen our platform.

通用性远比单独定制的东西更有价值。

So, commonality is much better than something that is truly a one off.

不过，如果我们正在和财富50强、20强、10强甚至5强的企业合作，而对方确实有独一无二的需求，那我们当然也会做。

That said, if we're working with a Fortune 50 or Fortune 20 or Fortune 10 or Fortune five company, and there is some element of that company that is literally unique, of course we'll build that.

有意思的是，现在因为有了代码代理，开发速度也快多了，做这种定制变得切实可行。

And one of the neat things is it's actually become feasible to build that because of coding agents, because of the pace at which you can move.

在已经很成熟的平台上开发解决方案，同时又能为单个客户做个性化扩展，这真的打开了新的可能性。

There's a real unlock there in being able to build a solution on an already deep platform, but extend it in ways that may apply to a single customer.

不过我觉得，如果你为一个客户做了这个功能，很可能别的客户也会遇到同样的问题。

My hunch though is that if you build it for one, someone else is going to have that same problem, right?

所以，真正独一无二的情况其实比你想象的要少得多。

And so, it's less common than you would think, true one of ones.

我想聊聊你是怎么管理公司的。

I do want to go to the way that you run the company.

在之前很多次对话中，这一点都特别关键。

It was so important in so many of my conversations before this.

咱们从董事会会议说起吧，就像我之前说的，很多投资人都是每六周开一次，而不是每季度一次。你能跟我分享一下，你是怎么让董事会发挥最大作用、开好每次会议的吗？

If we start with the board meetings, suppose, as I said many of the investors, every six weeks, not every quarter, can you talk to me about your biggest lessons on how to really get the most out of your board and run the best board meetings?

我们做了几件事。

We do a couple of things.

你提到了每六周一次的节奏。

You mentioned the six week cadence.

我们安排了两个会议：一个像TikTok那样短平快的，大概三小时；另一个是一个半小时的。

We have kind of a TikTok, a three hour meeting, and a one and a half hour meeting.

从公司成立第一天起我们就这么做了，因为我们很清楚，在AI领域，节奏快得惊人。

We've done this since the beginning of the company because we could just see if you're on the AI time clock, it moves a lot faster.

事情一直在变。

Things are changing.

最近我们刚过完冬假，突然发现代码助手变得特别厉害。

And most recently, we came back from winter break and suddenly coding agents were amazing.

有了Claude 4.5，还有Codex 5.2。

You had Claude 4.5, Codex 5.2.

这些模型的能力有了根本性的飞跃。

There was a fundamental step change in the capabilities of these models.

这彻底改变了我们做软件开发的方式。

It changed our approach to software development.

也改变了我们对核心产品的思路。

It changed our approach to the core product.

所以，保持一个六周一次的节奏，及时吸收最新信息，更新判断，然后调整方向，我觉得特别关键。

And so having a cadence where you can take in information even from the last six weeks, update your priors, and then change course, I think is quite important.

至于开董事会，我们根本不用PPT。

As for running board meetings themselves, we don't have board decks.

我们有董事会备忘录。

We have board memos.

布雷特和我通常会写一份六到十页的备忘录。

So, Brett and I write a usually six to 10 page memo.

有句话说，写作就是把思考写在纸上。

There's a saying, Writing is just thinking on paper.

我觉得写作根本没法糊弄过去。

And I think it's very hard to hide from writing.

所以把我们的想法清晰地写下来，提前发给每位董事会成员，让他们有时间消化、思考问题，做好准备，而不是被动听汇报、被牵着走，这一点非常重要。

And so getting our thoughts clearly out onto paper, sending that in advance, giving each of our board members some kind of soak time to think through the issues and come prepared rather than be like presented to and managed, I think is a big part of it.

至于董事会备忘录的内容本身，我觉得也很有特点。

And then the contents of the board letters themselves, I think is notable.

我们在上市后的前八个季度里表现相当不错。

We've done quite well in our, you know, first eight quarters in market.

通常来说，董事会备忘录的格式就是：我们又一次大幅超越了预期。

And generally, the format of board letter is like, we exceeded forecast by a wide margin yet again.

事情进展得不错。

Things are going well.

我们签下了这些客户。

We landed these customers.

以下是七件我们认为可以做得更好的事情。

And here are the seven things we think we could be doing better.

哪些地方我们不满意，比如可以更快推进，需要在某个领域增派人手，等等。

Where we're unhappy, we could be going faster here, need to hire in this area, and so on.

董事会会议也就自然而然地围绕这些内容展开了。

And then the board meetings kind of take form on their own based on that.

只要把框架搭好，人选定准，把我们要讨论的重大问题提前摆出来，真心邀请董事会成员来挑战我们、帮助我们完善和深化思考，就够了。

You get the scaffolding right, you get the people right, you get kind of setting the table of the big questions we're asking, and then genuinely, genuinely inviting our board members in to challenge us and improve and sharpen our thinking.

这些就是一些关键要素。

Those are some of the ingredients.

我听说你们还会写自己哪些地方做得不好。

I heard that you write also about everything that you suck at.

是的

Yeah.

你写过哪些关于自己短板的特别让人印象深刻的内容？

What was one of the most memorable writings on what you suck at?

早期有一次，我们其实已经有了非常清晰的需求增长信号。

One, early on, was we had such good indicators of the demand we were going to see.

但我们招人太慢了，跟不上需求。

And we just didn't hire fast enough to meet that demand.

简直让人懊恼，我们本可以拿下更多客户。

It was like, Ugh, like we could have taken on this additional set of customers.

数据就在眼前，清清楚楚，可我们没果断行动，没及时组建招聘团队，没加速扩张。

We had the data in front of us, like we could see it, and we didn't act decisively enough to build out a recruiting team, like scale faster.

那是2024年初的事。

This was early twenty twenty four.

那时候公司刚起步，现在我们已经改过来了，但这件事印象特别深。

So early days in the company, we've since corrected, but that was one that stands out.

接下来我们聊聊招聘的事。

We are going to go to hiring.

你刚才提到了在座的几位。

You mentioned some of the people around the table.

很多人这么说，但你们俩真的是顶尖运营人才的黄金组合。

Often people say this, but you really can, You and Brett, I mean, it's the dream team of the best of the best operators.

在几乎任何价格下，你都能挑到任何投资人，这其实挺难得的。

You can choose any investors at almost any price, which is kind of hard.

你和布雷特是怎么坐下来讨论新一轮融资的价格的？

How do you and Brett sit down and discuss price on a new round?

因为投资人愿意出任何价钱来入股。

Because investors will pay anything to get in.

价格当然想高一点，但也不能太高。

You want it to be high, obviously, but also not too high.

你们是怎么具体考虑这个问题的？

How do you actually think about that?

意思是，明年目标定在三年后？

Is it like, okay, three years on next year's target?

具体是怎样的？

What does it look like?

答案通常是被动上门的。

It's generally been inbound, is the answer.

说实话，我们根本不会从估值角度去想这个问题。

We think about it, honestly, not in terms of valuation.

我们想的是，要融多少资金，才能让公司的收入、规模这些关键指标，真正迈上一个明确的新台阶？

We think, what is the amount of capital that we need to raise to get to the next unequivocally higher watermark in terms of revenue, company scale, and so on?

所以，我们是按里程碑来分阶段融资的。

So, we think of it as like milestone to milestone funding.

我们会在稀释程度上保持敏感，但不会一味追求最小化。

And then we're sensitive, but not maximally so, to dilution.

那你是怎么平衡这些因素的？

And so, how do you balance those things?

我们每一轮融资，都主动引导并接受了比原本能拿到的更低的估值。

And every one of our rounds, we actually guided to and took a lower price than we could have.

我再次跟他们聊过。

I, again, spoke to them.

他们谈到了公司内部的一些价值理念。

They said about the values within the company.

工艺精神、专注投入，还有家庭。

Craftsmanship, intensity, and family.

工艺精神、专注投入和家庭——这些词我平时真不太会见到。

Craftsmanship, intensity, and family are three that I wouldn't normally see.

你能跟我讲讲，为什么这些价值观这么重要吗？

Can you talk to me a little bit about why those are so important?

我先说说工艺精神。

I'll start with craftsmanship.

布雷特和我，因为性格使然，都很在意把事情做好。

Both Brett and I, just because of the way we are, we care about doing things well.

既然要做一件事，就要做到最好。

If you're going to do something, do it with excellence.

把事情做到极致，意义远不止于纠结细节，主要有两方面。

Two ways in which doing things with excellence mean much more than just sweating the details.

那什么是优秀的企业呢？

One is what is a great company?

一家优秀的企业，是由成千上万件出色的小事汇聚而成的。

A great company is an aggregation of thousands and thousands of things that are themselves great.

是优秀的人才。

It's great people.

是精心设计的流程。

It's processes that are well designed.

是出色的产品。

It's a great product.

是良好的企业文化。

It's a great culture.

那么，怎样才能打造一家卓越的公司呢？

And so, how do you build an excellent company?

那就是每一件事都要追求卓越。

Well, you build everything with excellence.

我觉得，坚持一个标准很重要——只要值得做，就一定要做好，这一点很关键，因为这些积累起来才能成就一家伟大的公司。

And so, I think holding ourselves to the standard, like if it is worth doing, it is worth doing well is one part of that, because that adds up to a great company.

还有别的途径吗？

How else do you get there?

另一个关键是，想想客户托付给我们的是什么。

The other is you think about what our customers are trusting us with.

还是回到信任这个价值上，不过我要把它和匠人精神联系起来。

Back to the trust value, but I'll make the connection with craftsmanship.

客户托付给我们的，是他们最宝贵的资产。

It is with their most precious asset.

那就是他们的客户。

It is their customers.

公司怎么才能知道呢？

How will a company know?

那些考虑和我们合作的人，怎么知道我们会如何对待他们的客户？

How will a set of people who are considering working with us know how we will show up with their customers?

很大程度上，取决于我们如何与他们互动。

A lot of it is how we show up with them.

我们得在与客户接触的每一个细节上都做到极致。

Sweating the details in how we show up and interact with our customers.

专业的态度、用心的程度，还有当事情真正重要时，立刻放下手头一切去应对。

The level of professionalism, care, dropping everything when something matters.

我举个例子吧。

I'll give you an example there.

在我们第一次参与黑色星期五和网络星期一促销时，和一批零售商合作，我们的首席工程师、运营主管、我或者布雷特，都会实时亲自阅读每一位客服人员与客户的每一条对话。

In our first Black Friday, Cyber Monday with a set of retailers, one of our lead engineers, our head of operations, me or Brett, was in real time personally reading every single conversation that our agents were having.

我们只想确保，真的对得起客户的信任。

We wanted to make sure we were doing right by our customers.

这就是工匠精神。

So, that's craftsmanship.

而且这累积起来就是一个优秀的公司，我认为这对帮助我们的客户理解我们会如何对待他们的客户非常重要。

And again, adds up to a great company, and it's, I think, very meaningful in helping our customers understand the care we will have for their customers.

专注和家庭感。

Intensity and family.

对。

Yeah.

你能再详细说说这两点吗？

Can you expand on those again?

这两个词我平时很少听到。

Two that I don't often get.

我觉得这又回到了Giant Market的亮点，Giant Market的难点，Giant Market和其他公司也都面临同样的问题。

So, I think it's back to this great thing about Giant Market, Giant Market, hard thing about Giant Market, Giant Market, and others are in it, too.

我认为，公司通过高度智能的客服代表来与客户互动是必然趋势——这些代表能全面掌握公司的知识和能力，替客户把事情办妥，而不是简单地把人推到网站上去。对话本身，就是交互界面，对吧？

I think there is an inevitability to companies interacting with their customers via really sophisticated agents that capture all that they know and all they can do on behalf of their customers and get the job done on their behalf, that handle the complexity as opposed to pointing you to websites and so on, where the conversation is the interface, right?

我觉得这一点是必然的。

I think there's an inevitability to that.

所以，要想胜出，要想成为这个领域最好的公司，关键就在于速度。

And therefore, in order to win, in order to build the best company in this space, it is about pace.

关键是赢，是做出最好的产品，是保持竞争力，全身心投入。

It is about winning, it is about building the best product, it is about being competitive and being intense about it.

要知道，我们没时间慢慢来，未来没有谁注定会成为那个赢家。

Knowing that, you know, we don't have the luxury of patience, there's nothing written in the wind, right, that any particular company will be the company.

无论是在第五次还是第五百次接触客户时，都要像第一次那样全力以赴。

Showing up in our fifth engagement and five hundredth engagement as intensely as we did our first.

你必须这么做。

Like, you have to do that.

所以，我觉得我们招聘时也有一套标准，就像一个交集图。

And so, I think there's also, I talk about the Venn diagram of who we hire for.

聪明、友善、有冲劲。

Smart, nice, intense.

要同时找到具备这三点的人，其实挺难的。

And it's hard actually to get all of those three in a single person.

真找到了，那简直太棒了。

When you do, it's fantastic.

在办公室里你就能感受到那种氛围。

You can feel it in the office.

另一种理解‘专注’的方式，就是把事情做到极致。

And another way of translating intensity is doing things with excellence.

快速推进事情，其实也跟匠人精神分不开。

Doing things with pace, relates to craftsmanship as well.

有没有什么办法，比如设定时间表、奖励机制，能帮助组织保持或提升这种专注度？

Is there anything that you can do or add to an organization to increase or to maintain intensity, be it timelines, be it rewards, incentives?

随着规模扩大，怎么维持这种专注度？

How do you keep intensity with scale?

我觉得关键还是从创始人开始。

I think it starts with the founders.

我和布拉德都很拼。

Like, Brad and I are quite intense.

我们得带头做表率。

We have to be the pacesetters.

我们得展现出什么叫全力以赴。

We have to be the examples of intensity.

这体现在我们管理公司的方式上。

It shows up in how we manage the company.

他和我都深陷细节，总在问：这够好吗？

He and I are deep in details and are constantly, Is this good enough?

还能怎么改进？

How could this be better?

怎么才能更快推进？

How could we go faster on this?

为什么不能明天就做完，非得等到下周？

Why can't it happen tomorrow instead of next week?

所以，我认为这必须从创始人们作为一个整体开始。

So, I think it has to start with the founders as one.

你怎么判断哪些事情该亲自参与，哪些不该？

How do you determine what you should be in versus what you shouldn't?

我们看到创始人模式正在回归，创始人重新深入细节。

We've seen the resurgence of founder mode, of founders being in the weeds.

对。

Yeah.

但也不是每件事都适合这样，也不是每件事都该这么做。

It's also not possible in everything, and it's not right in everything.

那你怎么决定呢？

How do you determine that?

你得学会取舍。

You have to edit it.

你得有判断力。

You have to have judgment for it.

我觉得你得看清楚，哪些事情如果没有我们其中一人或两人亲自推动，根本不会发生，或者会拖得很慢。

And I think you have to look at what is the thing that is not gonna happen or won't happen as quickly without direct applied force from one of us, or both of us.

所以，盲目地陷在‘创始人模式’里，深究十七层细节，去管那些根本不重要的事，完全是浪费时间。

And so, you know, it's pointless to be in, quote, founder mode, 17 layers in the details, and something that doesn't matter.

但如果这件事关乎我们下一代代理架构，而且我们能带来关键突破，那它就极其重要。

It matters a lot if it's our next generation agent architecture and there's something that we can add.

我们尽量选择在哪些地方深入参与，但这绝对不是放任不管的管理方式。

We try to be selective about where we engage at that level, but it's anything but kind of hands off management.

我觉得，这要从创始人的雄心壮志说起，这些目标往往能自我实现。

So, I think it starts with the founder's ambitious goals have a way of becoming self fulfilling.

你定下一个目标，不管是产品的质量，还是营收数字，你都得问：要达成这个目标，必须有哪些前提条件成立？

You set out a goal, whether it's the quality of a product or a revenue number, it's like, well, what would have to be true in order to get there?

咱们先别怀疑，就假设一下：要这么快走这么远，到底需要什么条件？

Like, let's suspend disbelief and just imagine like what would have to be true to cover this much ground this quickly.

我们为什么不能做到？

Why can't we do that?

那我们为什么不能呢？

Okay, why shouldn't we?

日本就是一个很好的例子。

Japan is an interesting example of that.

我们今年为什么不能在日本做成一笔大生意，而不是等到明年？

Why can't we have a giant business in Japan this year and not next year?

需要满足什么条件？

What would have to be true?

我们得在当地有十个人才行。

Oh, we'd have to have like 10 people on the ground.

我当时就想，我们为什么不直接收购一家那里的公司呢？

I was like, why don't we buy a company there?

你看，这些事情都是连在一起的。

You see how this stuff hangs together.

远大的目标，有时候就体现在一个具体的时间点上。

Ambitious goals can take the form of a date.

当然，按截止日期推进工作有时候是管用的。

Sure, you know, date driven development can sometimes work.

我觉得工作就像气体，会自动填满你给它的一切空间。

I think also work is like a gas and tends to expand to fill all available space that you give it.

所以定截止日期也有风险，比如你给了这么长时间。

And so there's a danger in setting dates as well, where it's like, well, we've got this long.

其实可能根本不需要这么久。

It may not need to take that long.

这跟第三点有关，就是工作会膨胀到你给它的所有空间里。

It ties to the third one, which is like work expands to the room that you give it.

我把全部精力都投入工作，我特别享受这一点。

I give everything to my work, and I love that.

第三，把家庭当作一种价值吗？

Third, family as a value?

是的。

Yeah.

我对这一点特别感兴趣。

I'm just interested by that one.

是的，我们的每一条价值观都直接来自布雷特和我，而且我觉得我们做过的最好的决定之一，是在公司只有五六个人的时候。

Yeah, each of our values comes directly from Brett and me, and actually one of the best decisions we made was, I think it was the time we were five or six employees.

我们花了半天时间。

We spent half a day.

布雷特和我有个方法叫‘独立思考，一起讨论’，就是先各自针对一个话题独立思考，避免互相影响。

Brett and I have a technique we call Think Apart, Think Together, where we'll initialize on a prompt, and the idea is not to group think one another.

我们想尽量发挥各自独立思考的优势。

So, we want to get kind of the best of our independent thinking.

所以我们对价值观做了次‘独立思考，一起讨论’，各自花了一个小时写下自己的看法，然后回来对比。

And so, we did a Think Apart, Think Together on values, went off and spent an hour kind of writing up what our view was, came back and compared notes.

首先，我们发现重合的地方多得惊人，回头想想，其实也不该觉得意外。

There was, first of all, a shocking amount of overlap, which I guess shouldn't have in retrospect been surprising.

因为我们本来就想一起共事。

Was like we had wanted to work together.

我们早就认识了。

We'd been friends.

我们在很多价值观上都非常相似。

Think we're deeply similar in many of our values.

我敢说，我们所有的核心价值观都是一致的。

Really all of our core values, I would say.

家庭这个价值观，是因为我有四个年幼的孩子。

Family comes from, I've got four young kids.

布雷特也有三个孩子。

Brett's got three kids.

我娶了高中时的初恋。

And I married my high school sweetheart.

对我们俩来说，唯一比西耶拉更重要的，就是我们的家人。

And I think for both of us, the only thing that's more important than Sierra is our families.

我们相信，你可以参与一个快速成长的事业。

Our belief is that you can be part of something that is growing fast.

你可以全身心投入工作。

You can be intense about your work.

需要的时候，你完全可以加把劲。

You can turn on the afterburners when you need.

这可不只是指孩子的事。

And it doesn't just mean kids.

是去机场接从外地来的父母。

It's picking up your parents at the airport when they get in from out of town.

是参加朋友家的延长版生日聚会。

It's going to the friends, you know, extended birthday weekend.

是参加家长会，或者类似的事情。

It's being, yes, at the parent teacher conference or whatever it is.

我觉得，在硅谷的初创公司里，常常有一种表演式的拼命文化，这其实太多了。

And I think there is too often an image of kind of a sometimes performative grind in certainly Silicon Valley startups.

我们并不是不认可努力工作。

It's not that we don't believe in hard work.

我们可不就是吗？

Like, boy, do we?

再说一遍，就是这种投入。

Like, again, intensity.

但真正重要的是聪明地工作，找到平衡，这样才能腾出空间去陪伴家人，关注那些对你整个人生真正重要的事，而不仅仅是工作。

But it's in working smart and finding some balance that gives you space translate family to things that matter to you in the sense of your whole being beyond just work.

但你真的能像以前那样拼命工作吗？毕竟你有家庭，还有四个孩子——克莱，你配偶，四个孩子？

Are you literally able to work as hard, though, when you have a family and you have four, I mean, Clay, a mate, four kids?

这可是四个孩子啊。

That's a lot of kids.

我觉得

I find

我确实工作很多。

I work a lot.

当然，如果你能凭空给我多出每周十五个小时，不用陪孩子，我肯定也会用在别的地方。

Of course, if you just magically handed me fifteen hours in a week that I wasn't with kids, I'd probably do something with those.

我发现我特别专注，效率也很高。

I find I am intensely focused and efficient.

所以，我每个小时都能榨出很多东西来。

And so, boy, do I get a lot out of every hour I have.

我做的一件事就是每天花很多时间在101号公路上往返办公室。

One of the things I've done, I spend a lot of time on 101 going to and from the office.

我们始终坚持面对面工作。

We are all about in person.

疫情刚结束那会儿，坚持要线下办公还显得挺特别的。

And coming out of the pandemic, it was something of, you know, a novelty being opinionated about being in person.

每天通勤要花一个半小时，有时候甚至两个小时。

So, spent like an hour and a half, sometimes two on the road every day.

我现在弄了个特别复杂的网络设置，把两个蜂窝网络和一个星链迷你设备结合起来，每天往返市区都能保持稳定流畅的连接。

I now have a very complex networking setup that combines two cellular networks and a Starlink Mini so that I have uninterrupted, beautiful connectivity to and from the city every day.

你真会安排。

You're efficient.

你每个小时都能榨出全部价值。

You get everything that you can out of every hour.

你为什么这么坚持要面对面工作？

Why are you so opinionated about in person?

尤其是对于一家年轻公司，我认为要建立一种文化、一套共同的准则和团队凝聚力，虽然不是完全不可能，但真的非常困难。

In particular for a young company, I think it is, I won't say impossible, but very challenging to build a culture, a set of shared norms, camaraderie.

我们经常说，企业软件就像一场团队运动，能成为一支顶尖团队的一员，感觉特别棒。

I think so many of things we talked about, enterprise software as a team sport, it feels great to be part of an amazing team.

但当你和这支顶尖团队的联系，只是靠一屏幕的Zoom小方块时，感觉就不一样了。

And it's different when your connection to that amazing team is via a Brady bunch of Zoom squares.

我们有一些只有在办公室里一起工作时才会形成的固定习惯。

We have rituals that we've developed that we only would have developed if we were all working in person.

我觉得对年轻员工来说，那种言传身教的指导真的会发生。

I think for younger employees, apprenticeship and mentorship that happens.

我很多东西都是从有经验的人那里学来的，我职业生涯的起点，就是靠他们主动带我、让我在一旁亲眼看着他们怎么做事。

So much of what I learned, and I think the initial conditions of my career, were from experienced people taking me under their wing or letting me, in cases, literally look over their shoulder at how they were doing something.

我觉得这种传承也很重要，而面对面交流在这方面也起着关键作用。

I think there's an element of paying it forward that's important, and in person has a role to play in that as well.

我特别喜欢一位著名计算机科学家哈明的一场演讲，讲的是你和你的研究。

There's a talk that I love by the renowned computer scientist, Hamming, you and your research.

对任何新毕业生来说，我认为从字数效率来看，这可能是读过最有价值的内容。

For any new graduate, probably the single best thing on a per word basis, I think, can read.

其中一个核心观点是：找到优秀的人，和他们一起工作，并向他们学习。

One of the central theses is find great people, work with them, and learn from them.

听起来很简单，但其中蕴含着深刻的道理。

It sounds obvious, but there's something deeply correct.

我们人类到底是怎么学习的呢？

Like, how do we learn as human beings?

我们通过观察别人怎么做，然后模仿他们。

We observe someone doing something, and we effectively copy it.

所以，找到优秀的人，然后去模仿他们。

So find great people and copy them.

这就是你积累技能和能力的方式。

That's how you accumulate skills and capabilities.

哈明在这次演讲中还提到一点，知识和努力就像复利。

And one of the other points Hamming makes in this talk is knowledge and hard work are like compound interest.

我们都明白，越早开始积累，因为复利的神奇效应，就能彻底改变你的人生轨迹。

And we all know the earlier you start saving because of the miracle of compounding interest, it can massively change the trajectory of your life.

所以，年轻人越早开始拼命学习越好，尽早把这些经验和能力内化下来，这真的能改变你的人生走向。

And so, any young person should be intensely focused on learning as much as they can, as early as they can, locking in those kind of lessons and capabilities, if you will, cause it is literally trajectory changing.

你想听两件有趣的事吗？

Do you want to hear two funny things?

第一，我们以前每周做五期节目。

One, we used to do five shows a week.

我刚起步的时候，比谁都拼。

I just worked harder than anyone else when I was starting out.

这节目量也太多了吧，哈里。

That's a lot of shows, Harry.

是的，那是十一年前的事了，但那时候每周做五期节目。

Yeah, yeah, it was eleven years ago, but it was five shows a week.

第二点，我前三年每期节目听众都没到一千，三年里也没从节目里赚过一分钱。

And then two, I didn't have a thousand listeners per show for three years, and I never made a dollar on the show for three years.

我从来不是为了钱或者名气做这个。

It was never about money or recognition.

我真正关心的，只是把这当成向你学习的方式。

I only cared actually about using this as a method to learn from you.

尤其是我十八岁那会儿，要认识厉害的人真的很难。

And probably when I especially when I was 18, it was harder to meet amazing people.

所以我对这两点完全认同。

And so I completely agree with those two.

现在年轻一代的人可真多。

There are a lot of young people today.

你也有孩子。

You have kids.

我能想象那些刚毕业、对这个世界还感到迷茫的年轻人。以你现在的见识，你会给他们什么建议？

I can picture them leaving university who are uncertain about where the world is, what to What would you advise them, knowing all that you know?

即将到来的明显趋势是人工智能。

The obvious kind of tsunami coming is AI.

那么，这对工作会带来什么影响？

Okay, what are the implications on jobs for that?

我理解大家很担心，尤其是入门级岗位会怎么样。

I think there's been a lot of concern, understandably, about, okay, what happens to entry level jobs?

新人该怎么学习、怎么积累经验呢？

How do you apprentice and so on?

我觉得刚毕业的年轻人最大的优势在于，你们刚刚花了四年时间，拥有几乎无限的自由时间。

I think the unfair advantage that young people have coming out of university is you've just had four years to spend effectively unlimited time.

你得去上课、应付考试，就这么简单。

You've got to go to class and pass some exams and stuff.

你对自己的时间有极大的掌控权，空闲时间也特别多。

You have huge control over your time and disposable hours.

从大学毕业时，如果你已经精通这些AI工具，我敢说有一千家公司都抢着要你，把你的本事用到他们的业务里。

Coming out of university as a master of these AI tools, boy, let me point you to a thousand companies that would love to have you infuse what you know into how they're doing things.

我记不得什么时候，一个没有工作经验的年轻人，只要心态对、会用这些工具，就能这么受重视。

I can't remember a time when a young person with no work experience, but with the right mindset and experience using some of these tools, has ever been so valued.

我们公司里最有成效的一些员工，才二十二三岁，完全被AI赋能了，对这些工具的熟练程度，连很多资深员工都比不上。

Some of our most effective employees at the entire company are 22 or 23 years old and have been completely AI pilled and have a comfort and facility with these tools that many of our more experienced folks don't.

你们在招聘时，对这个AI赋能时代的人才标准有什么调整吗？

Has the way that you hire changed for the profile that wins in this AI pilled world?

有。

Yes.

我们彻底改了工程师的面试流程。

We completely changed our engineering interview process.

现在更像是给你一个指令，

So, it now looks much more like, here's a kind of prompt.

然后想想你打算开发一个什么样的应用。

Think through an application you would like to build.

不错。

Cool.

好，给你150美元，去选一个你心仪的编码助手。

Okay, here's $150 to spend on choose your coding agent.

你可以用任何你喜欢的配置。

You can use whatever setup you want.

想用什么工具都行。

Use whatever tools you want.

自带笔记本，自带工具都没问题。

Bring your own laptop, bring your own tools.

我们来承担你的调用费用。

We're going to pay for your tokens.

然后就把项目做出来。

And then build it.

跟我们说说你是怎么一步步完成这个项目的。

Tell us how you went through building it and so on.

所以在工程领域，这已经是一场原生的AI面试了。

So, at least in engineering, it is an AI native interview.

当然，我们会考察架构、系统设计、产品思维、文化契合度，还有候选人是否聪明、友善、专注，以及他们是否真正体现了我们的价值观。

And of course, we test for architecture, systems design, product thinking, culture, smart, nice, intense, the extent to which we think people manifest our values.

但这些标准已经发生了巨大变化。

But that's changed very significantly.

如果在未来两个月内，我们的每一场面试还没有明显的AI原生元素，我会非常失望。

I will be disappointed if in the next no more than two months, not every one of our interviews has some strong AI native component to it.

你刚才提到了架构，你是怎么想的？

Do you think You mentioned architecture there.

考虑到AI生成的代码可能不够安全，你认为我们正进入网络安全的黄金时代吗？

Do you think we are entering a golden age for cyber and for cybersecurity, given the proliferation of code generated by AI that may not be as secure as it needs to be?

就重要性而言，我清楚地看到，现在比以往任何时候都更重要，因为攻击能力已经提升了五个档次。

In terms of importance, it is obvious to me that it has never been more important, given that the kind of offensive capabilities just ratcheted up five notches.

在我看来，网络安全是个非常有前景的方向。

I think cybersecurity seems like a pretty good bet to me.

关键在于，这些攻击性工具会不会反过来变成防御性工具？比如Mythos和Codex 5.5 Cyber，它们本身是不是就是解决方案，而不是更狭义的网络安全产品？

The question is whether the offensive tools turn to be defensive tools, if actually Mythos and Codex 5.5 Cyber, if they themselves are the solution, not a more narrowly focused cybersecurity product.

你和布雷特最近一次争执是什么时候？

What was the most recent disagreement you and Brett had?

几周前，我们正想办法让某个项目在某个领域提速。

A couple of weeks ago, we were trying to figure out how to get something to move much faster in one space.

这挺有意思的。

It's interesting.

我们基本上最后总能达成一致。

We basically always converge.

我们特别追求真相。

It's like we're highly truth seeking.

我们有个挺特别的说法。

It's like, what is We have a funny expression.

这就对了。

It's like, this is correct.

好的。

Okay.

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

从追求客观真相的角度来看，这就是正确的做法。

From some objective truth seeking perspective, like, this is the right way to do it.

所以我们努力去弄清楚，到底什么才是正确的解决方案。

So we try to get to, okay, what is the correct solution?

我当时觉得，我们需要为这件事建立更好的流程和结构。

I was on One side was like, I think we need better kind of process and structure around this thing.

布雷特则更看重人。

Brett was on the side of people.

也许这个领域需要换不同的领导者。

Maybe we need different leaders or a different leader in this space.

答案呢，和大多数事情一样，其实是两方面都有道理，对吧？

The answer, as with most things, like turned out to be some of both, right?

结果发现是两者兼有。

Turned out to be some of both.

我们一开始觉得，这问题不能光靠解决办法来搞定。

We started from, No, it can't just be solved with a problem.

意思是，这也不光是人的问题。

It's like, No, it's not just people.

然后我们就顺着这些线索深入探究。

And, you know, we pull on those threads.

这并不是要分开想或者一起想，而是彼此不断追问，目的就是找到最正确、最好的做法。

And this wasn't think apart, think together so much as just kind of interrogating each other, again, with the goal of just getting to the right and best approach to something.

当布雷特说出什么观点时，你会不会觉得，‘没错，他在行’？

What when Brett says something, are you like, Yep, I'm sure he's a G at that?

当你提出看法时，

And what when you say something,

布雷特会不会就摆出一副专家的样子，说‘没错’？

is Brett like, Yep, plays the expert?

我们考虑问题的方式，不是把公司拆分成部门，而是给每个部分都设定主修和辅修方向。

We think about, rather than dividing up the company, we think about majors and minors for every part of the company.

布雷特的主修领域肯定是销售，其次是工程。

So, Brett's majors are definitely sales and then engineering.

他在卖软件方面特别在行。

He's really good at selling software.

他作为软件工程师的本事也一点没落下。

He's really good as a software engineer still.

我主修的是我常说的公司运营部分。

I major in what I've called like the running of the company.

比如运营、财务、法律这些方面。

So, operations, finance, legal, and so on.

我经常负责打第一通电话。

I do a lot of first calls.

他非常清楚我们最重要的那些合同，毕竟这些事直接关系到公司怎么运转。

Like he understands our most important contracts, you know, for things that are highly consequential on how we run the company.

我们手里有两把关键的钥匙，用来掌控这些事。

You know, we have kind of two nuclear keys that we turn on those.

布雷特在Salesforce待过，从最顶尖的人身上学到了很多。

Brett, having spent time at Salesforce, really learned from the best.

马克真是非同凡响。

Like, Mark is extraordinary.

听上去他确实是我见过的最厉害的销售。

It does sound like he's the best seller I've ever met.

简直难以置信。

Unbelievable.

史上最强，史上最强，太厉害了。

The GOAT, the GOAT, unbelievable.

马克那边天气怎么样？

How's the weather on Mark?

我跟你提过Agent Force吗？

Have I told you about Agent Force?

说到销售的直觉，那种公正又真诚的尊重，真的让人觉得没错，就这么回事。

The just but honest respect, when it comes to instincts on how to sell, it was like, yep, okay, makes sense.

布雷特在系统设计和架构方面的直觉，没人比得上。

Brett's instinct on system design and architecture are second to none.

所以，我对他的判断的信任，甚至超过对自己的信任。

And so, I trust his judgment more than I trust my own.

在人员管理、公司建设与运营这些事上，只要克莱说了算，我一定听他的。

On people stuff, on kind of the building and running of the company, it was like, whatever Clay size, I would go with that.

我觉得这大概就是主要和次要的阴阳平衡了。

So, I think that's probably the rough yin yang major minor split.

老兄，如果可以的话，我想来个快问快答。

Dude, I would love to do a quick fire round if it's okay.

好啊，来吧。

Yeah, let's do it.

和桑达尔共事，你学到的最大一课是什么？

What was your biggest lesson from working with Sundar?

真是莫大的福气。

Such a gift.

桑达尔有一种非凡的能力，能从完全不同的角度看待问题。

Sundar has a remarkable ability to look at a problem from wildly different zoom levels.

他的思维广度无人能及，既能站在最高层面制定战略，又能深入到最细微的细节。

His dynamic range and thinking is second to none, zoomed all the way out, highest level strategy.

从未来五年的大局走向，到每一个像素、阴影、声音、材质的精准把控，他都能兼顾。

How is this going to unfold over the next five years, all the way into the details, the pixels, the drop shadows, the sound, the texture of something.

我也一直在努力向他学习。

And I have tried to emulate that.

谈谈身边有杰出人物，或者有幸为这样的人工作是什么感觉。

Talk about surrounding yourself by great people or having the privilege of working for someone.

我见过一位领导者，他对产品、工作和打造卓越事物有着极致的专注，同时本身也是一个极其温暖的人，真正关心身边每一个人。

I observed a leader who is extraordinarily focused on the product, the work, building something great, also is just a wonderful human being and deeply focused on the humanity and folks around him.

关于谷歌，有什么事情是外人不知道、但每个人都该知道的？

What does no one know about Google that you think everyone should know?

人们常常低估了谷歌的力量——当一个雄心勃勃且持久的使命，加上一群极其聪明的人，再配上一种崇尚真实、致力于实现这一使命的文化三者结合时，这家公司几乎能解决任何问题。

What people underestimate about Google is when you have the alignment of an ambitious, enduring mission, incredibly smart people, and a culture that values truth and building in service of that mission, that company can kind of solve anything.

有些人会批评谷歌搞得太杂，百花齐放。

People sometimes criticize Google for thousand flowers bloom.

但如果那些聪明又真诚的人，真心照料着每一寸花圃，并且方向对了，这种模式就会成为创新、发现和创造新事物的强大动力。

If you have smart, well meaning people caring for every one of those flower beds and they're they're directed in the right way, it is quite a force for invention and discovery and building new things.

有人让我问你一下你的书单。

I got asked to ask you about your book list.

我听说你读很多书。

I hear you read a lot.

这问题有点蠢，抱歉啊。

That's a shit question, forgive me for it.

听完你这番话，我最该读哪本书？

What's the must read for me leaving this conversation?

哦。

Oh.