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正如你可能已经注意到的,这个月我们为您带来‘人生目标’系列,并重温一些最具变革性的节目。
As you probably noticed, this month we're bringing you our Life of Purpose series and revisiting some of our most transformative episodes.
敬请收听,探索关于健康、表现力和社区福祉的专家见解与实用策略,所有内容都旨在帮助您实现个人与职业上的满足。
Tune in to explore expert insights and practical strategies on health, performance, and community well-being, all aimed at helping you achieve personal and professional fulfillment.
如果您订阅简报,不仅能获得每期访谈关键观点的摘要,系列结束时还将免费获得我们的《人生目标》电子书。
If you sign up for the newsletter, you'll not only get recaps of the key ideas in each interview, but at the end of the series, you'll receive our free Life of Purpose ebook.
您只需访问 unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose 即可。
All you have to do is go to unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose.
再次提醒,网址是 unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose。
Again, that's unmistakablecreative.com/lifepurpose.
那么我们来谈谈 Q 因子是什么。
So let's talk about what the Q factor is.
对吧?
Right?
其中一个关键点是,每个项目都有同等的概率成为你一生中最成功的项目,这实际上催生了一个关于创造力运作的数学模型。
So one of the things that the fact that each project has exactly the same probability of being the most successful of your life, that actually led to a mathematical model of how creativity works.
这种方式实际上是,你开始的每一个项目都像一个随机数。
And the way this works really is that every project that you start is like a random number.
你从一个帽子中抽出一个随机数,而你和我都能接触到同一个帽子。
You pick a random number from a hat, and you and I have access to the same hat.
所以我们从这个帽子中抽出一个随机数。
So we pick a random number from that.
这个数字可能是1,也可能是6,就像掷骰子一样,对吧?
And that could be one or six, throw a dice, right?
这完全是随机的。
It's totally random.
然后你将你的知识和专长投入到这个项目中,这就是你的Q因子,把想法转化为产品。
And then you bring your knowledge and expertise on that, and that's your Q factor, and turn that idea into a product.
如果你是科学家,它可能是一篇论文。
If you're a scientist, it could be a paper.
如果你是播客主持人,它可能是一档节目;如果你是作家,它可能是一本书,等等。
If you are a podcast host, it could be actually a show, or it could be a book if you're a writer, whatever that is.
然后你观察这个产品的成功或影响,比如它获得了多少引用、有多少人购买了它,等等。
And then you look at the success or the impact of that product, like how many citations it got, how many people bought it, and so on.
我们发现,这种影响无非就是你从帽子中抽出的随机数乘以你的 q 因子。
And what we find is that the impact of that is nothing but that random number that you pick from the hat times your q factor.
你的 q 因子是一个衡量你将随机想法转化为有影响力产品的能力的数值。
That is your q factor is a number that characterizes your ability to take a random idea and to turn into an impactful product.
如果你的 q 因子很低,即使你掷出了一个六,也不会产生高影响力的产品,因为你不知道该如何利用它。
Now if you have a low q factor, even if you throw a six with a dice, it's not gonna be a high impact product because you don't have you don't know what to do with that.
对吧?
Right?
所以实际上,你并没有把那个想法推得太远。
So effectively, you're not accelerating that idea very far.
然而,如果你的 q 因子很高,即使你抽到一个很低的随机数,比如一个糟糕的想法,也不太可能成功。
However, if you have a high q factor, you could still pick a low number, random number, better pick a bad idea and not to be very successful with it.
但当你偶然遇到那个伟大的想法——高随机数乘以高 q 因子时,就会产生突破。
But in the moment you hit across by chance through that great idea that the high random number times your high q factor becomes a breakthrough.
我是斯里尼·拉奥,欢迎收听《无可争议的创意》播客,在这里你可以深入了解那些开创潮流、打造成功企业、撰写畅销书以及创作令人惊叹艺术作品的最具创新力和创造力的头脑们的故事与洞见。
I'm Srini Rao, and this is the unmistakable creative podcast, where you get a window into the stories and insights of the most innovative and creative minds who started movements, built thriving businesses, written best selling books, and created insanely interesting art.
如需了解更多,请访问我们的500期节目档案:unmistakablecreative.com。
For more, check out our 500 episode archive at unmistakablecreative.com.
拉斯洛,欢迎来到《无可争议的创意》。
Laszlo, welcome to The Unmistickable Creative.
非常感谢你抽出时间参与我们的节目。
Thanks so much for taking the time to join us.
这是我的荣幸。
It's my pleasure.
谢谢你的邀请。
Thanks for having me.
是的。
Yeah.
很高兴你能来到这里。
It is my pleasure to have you here.
说实话,我都想不起来是怎么发现你的书的。
So I honestly don't even remember how I came across your book.
我想是在Pocket Reader上看到一篇推荐给我的文章时,它突然出现了,我立刻被其中的内容吸引,因为我觉得,哇,这是一种基于研究的成功方法,因为我觉得,大家普遍都喜欢这种‘成功有公式’的想法。
I think it showed up, in an article that was recommended to me on Pocket Reader, and I was immediately drawn to the work because I thought, wow, here's a research backed approach to, you know, success because I think that, you know, the idea that there's a formula for this, I think, is something that we we all love that idea.
但另一方面,如果真有明确的成功公式,那每个人都会成功了。
And yet, I think in a lot of ways, if there was a formula for exactly how to do it, everybody would be successful.
但在深入讨论这些之前,我想先问你,你是在哪里长大的?你成长的环境对你的人生和职业选择产生了怎样的影响?
But before we get into all of that, I would like to start by asking you where in the world did you grow up, and what impact did where you grew up end up having on the choices that you've made with your life and your career?
当然可以。
Sure, absolutely.
我是匈牙利人,但我在一个叫特兰西瓦尼亚的地方长大,那里确实存在。
So I am Hungarian, but I grew up in a place called Transylvania, which does exist.
它现在属于罗马尼亚,部分人口是匈牙利裔。
It's part of Romania now and it's partly Hungarian populated.
我成长的时候,那里是一个封闭得严严实实的地方,因为那时处于共产主义时期,你根本无法以任何理由离开国家。
And when I was growing up, actually, there was a hermetically close place because it was during the communism that you could not really leave the country for any reasons.
因此,我成长于一个特定的环境中,学校教育让我深信,学习和教育的一切都是为了带来成功,对吧?
And so I grew up in a particular environment where I certainly taught, my schooling taught me that it's really school and education and everything is to kind of bring you success, right?
因为最终,你必须接受教育,必须培养技能。
Because at the end, you need to be educated, you need to develop skills.
如果你具备了这些,那么成功就会随之而来。
And if you do have that, then actually that will result in success.
所以,某种程度上,我们所讨论的这本书、这个公式,让我意识到事情并没有那么简单——学习和教育是必要的,但不足以保证成功。
So in a way, the book, the formula that we're talking about was for me a reckoning with the fact that it's not so simple and schooling and learning it's necessary, but it is not sufficient success.
不过我们稍后再详细讨论这一点。
But we'll go into more details on that later.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
所以我想知道,在你成长的这种共产主义国家环境中,这对你的表达观点和想法的能力产生了什么影响?
So I wonder in a a place, you know, where you grew up in a communist country, what impact does that have on, your ability to express opinions and express ideas?
在那样的环境中,有什么会被压抑吗?
And what any if any gets stifled by being in an environment like that?
我的意思是,我已经离开那个环境很久了,我不再觉得受到那种影响,因为我的职业社会化主要是在美国完成的。
Well, I mean, you know, I've been long enough out that that that I'm not any more I don't believe that I'm very much stifled with that because I was really socialized professionally professionally in in the The US.
美国。
US.
我是在开始研究生学业时来到这里的,但那段经历确实留下了印记。
I I I arrived arrived here here when I started graduate school, but it does have an imprint.
我倾向于先想想积极的一面,对吧?
And I tend to think, I wanna first think about the positive part, right?
那就是一个参照体系。
Which is a reference system.
有了那些经历,我对美国的教育体系和生活方式有了可能并不常见的视角。
And having had those experiences, it gives me a perspective on the American both educational system and way of life that is probably not common.
举个简单的例子,我发现美国这么多选择反而让我感到难以应对,对吧?
Just a simple example to say, I find it difficult the many choices we have in The US, Right?
我小时候,货架上只有一种黄油,如果能买到一辆车,也只有一种车型,那就是罗马尼亚的达契亚车。
When I grew up, there was one butter on the shelf and there was one car, if you could get one, right, one type of car, the Romanian ditch tachia.
所以,当时我只能上一所高中,能选择的大学也只有一两所,继续深造。
And so, like, you know, there was one school I could go to high school and there was really one or two universities that I could choose to go to, to study further.
因此,一旦你决定想做什么,选择就非常有限。
So there wasn't much choice once you kind of decided what you want to do.
作为一名科学家,我发现西方世界在教育、职业乃至各种物质资源上的丰富选择让我有点不知所措,而这些是我过去根本无法拥有的。
And that and being a scientist, I find it a little bit overwhelming, the abundance of offering at every level from educational to professional to all the way to the materials that the Western world offers that obviously I didn't have to.
是的。
Yeah.
所以,我从你写的书里了解到,你也是一位家长。
So I I know from reading the book that you're a parent as well.
我一直很好奇移民父母的做法,因为我就是在一个移民家庭长大的。
And I this is something I always wonder about immigrant parents just because I grew up with immigrant parents.
很长一段时间里,我一直觉得你们有一套刻板的期望,比如一定要上学,当医生、律师、工程师,尤其是我们印度家庭,这几乎成了固定叙事。
And for the longest time, I thought, you know, you guys have this, you know, cookie cutter version of what we're supposed to do, you know, go to school, become a doctor, lawyer, engineer, particularly because we're Indian, and that's just kind of the narrative.
作为一个从这种背景过来的移民,同时又是一名教育者,你向自己的孩子传递了怎样的关于人生、教育和职业选择的观念呢?
And I wonder as an immigrant who has come from this background, who had limited choices and somebody who is also an educator, what is the the narrative that you've passed on to your own children about making choices about their life, their education, and their career?
我的意思是,这种观念并没有发生太大变化,因为事实上,美国社会在某种程度上变得非常精英化和技术化,对吧?
Well, I mean, I don't think the narrative has significantly changed because if anything, what has happened in The US society that it became, to some degree very meritocratic and technocratic, right?
当然,我们可以就这一点展开很多讨论,涉及它的方方面面,但现实中,社会各阶层之间存在着巨大差异,而造成这些差异的最主要驱动力就是知识和获取知识的途径。
And of course, we can talk a lot about that, many aspects of that, but virtually we are right to the society there's a major differences between the different strata of the society, and the biggest driving force of those differences is really knowledge and access to knowledge.
对吧?
Right?
如果说我带过来什么的话,那就是对知识的重视。
And if anything, that what I brought with me is kind of an appreciation for knowledge.
和许多其他移民父母一样,我的核心信念就是:知识是最重要的,你必须在智力和物质上都投入,把知识传递给你的孩子。
Kind of my driving force, as many other immigrants' parents, is that that's the most important aspect, and that's where you have to invest both intellectually and materially to kind of bring that knowledge to your children.
共产主义社会,或者说更普遍的欧洲社会,一个优势在于,不同社会阶层之间的流动性更强。
That, One advantage of a communist society, or in general, the more European society, is that it has much more mobility between the different strata.
因此,你真的有机会从底层一步步上升到顶层。
So you have actually a real chance to kind of moving from the bottom to the top.
在美国,这类流动在过去二三十年里已经停滞了。
US, those type of movement has been frozen out in the last twenty, forty years.
所以,作为父母、教育者,或者任何作为 metaphor 的家长,确保孩子拥有接受教育和向上流动的机会非常重要,因为如今这非常困难。
So in a way, I think it's very, very important as a parent, as an educator, or for any parent in metaphor, to kind of pay attention to make sure that your children have that opportunity for education and to move up because it's very difficult these days.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我觉得你提到社会阶层之间流动的能力很有趣。
So I think it's interesting that you bring up the ability to have mobility between social stratas.
然后,我想从一个拥有两个学位的人的角度来思考这个问题——一个来自精英学府加州大学伯克利分校,另一个是佩珀代因大学的MBA。
And then, you know, I I think about this from the standpoint of somebody who's had two degrees, one from an elite school like Berkeley and an MBA from Pepperdine.
我记得看过几分钟哈桑·明纳吉的纪录片《爱国者法案》,他专门做了一期关于学生贷款债务的节目。
And I remember watching just a few minutes of this documentary called the Patriot Act with Hassan Minaj, and he actually did an entire segment on student loan debt.
他说,不妨这样想。
And he said that think about it this way.
他说,想象你正在参加奥运会赛跑,但在起跑线前,有人朝你的脚开了一枪。
He said, imagine that you're running a race in the Olympics and somebody comes up before the starting gate and shoots you in the foot.
他说,这实际上就是我们给学生施加巨额债务时所做的事情。
He's like, that's effectively what we do to students when we hamper them with all this debt.
所以作为教育者,我想知道你是如何解决这个矛盾的——即,没错,教育确实对我们能力的培养至关重要。
So you as an educator I wonder how you you resolve that that paradox of the fact that, yes, education is is necessary in terms of, you know, equipping us.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道的。
You know?
当由于互联网和技术的发展,我们前所未有地能够获取知识时,你如何看待正规教育及其结构在我们生活中的作用?
And then when you have access to knowledge like we've never had before because of the Internet, because of technology, How do you think about the role that formal education and the structure of formal education plays in our lives?
我的意思是,正规教育实际上是非常重要的。
I mean, formal education is essential, actually.
尽管有关正规教育消亡的新闻层出不穷,但我并不认为它会很快消失。
And and I don't think, you know, no despite of all the news about the demise of the formal education, I don't think it's gonna go anytime soon away.
所以我们必须正视这个问题。
So we have to kind of, be dealing with that.
而且,实际上我们会谈到,不同的学校提供的内容是不同的。
Also, that there are actually and we'll we'll probably talk about it, you know, like different schools offer different things.
当谈到长期成功时,学校提供什么是一个非常有趣的问题。
And what does the school offer is a very interesting question when it comes to long term success.
这里有两种不同的方式。
There are there are two different ways.
首先,作为一名教育者,我认为许多美国人无法获得教育,而这种状况几乎在他们出生时就被决定了,这令人心碎。
First of all, as an educator, I think it's heartbreaking the fact that there is this that that many Americans do not have access to education, and that's kind of almost decided for them at birth.
这是第一点。
That's number one.
这是我从欧洲缺失的一种参照框架,因为那里有更大的流动性。
That's a reference frame that I'm missing from Europe because there's much more mobility there.
作为一名家长,我解决这个问题的方式是,我坚定地相信我接受了免费教育,我的孩子也应该享有免费教育,也就是说,我不会让他们背负债务,对吧?
As a parent, the way I resolve that is that I actually have a very firm conviction that I got a free education and my children should have a free education, meaning that I will not load them with debt, right?
因此,我觉得作为父母,我的责任是支持他们,让他们能够实现自己的潜能。
So I feel like it's my responsibility as a parent to kind of lunge them so that they can live their potential.
当然,我说这些是因为我负担得起教育费用,对吧?
Now, of course, I can say so because I can afford the schooling, right?
很多孩子申请贷款,并不是因为他们的父母不这么想,而是因为他们实在负担不起。
And many of these kids are taking up the loan, not because their parents think otherwise, but because they just can't afford it.
对吧?
Right?
所以,这个问题短期内不会得到解决,不是在这档节目里,也不是通过什么公式能解决的。
So so that we're not gonna resolve that anytime soon, not on this show and not through the formula.
是的。
Yeah.
那么,你觉得这是不是我一直在想的问题?
Well, do you think that this is something I I wonder.
会不会有一个临界点,学生贷款危机就像当年的住房危机一样,导致整个系统崩塌?
Is that like, is there a point at which the student loan debt crisis causes just a roof to cave in kind of the way, yeah, the, the housing crisis did?
因为在我看来,你一直不停地放贷,却收不回资金,这样的情况能持续多久,直到出现系统性后果?
Because in my mind, I'm like, how long can you keep giving money out and not having it come back in until there's systemic consequences?
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是,我觉得确实有一些人坚持认为,这将成为美国经济下一个重大危机。
I mean, I think if, you know, like, there are some some some some people who kind of insist that that will be the next major crisis in the American, economy.
我不是经济学家,所以无法给你一个非常精确的答案。
I'm not an economist, so I can't really give you a very precise answer on that.
也没人能给出精确答案。
Not that anybody could.
对。
Yeah.
那我们换一个话题吧。
Well, let's do this.
让我们稍微换个角度,聊聊你是如何走到这一步的,以及是什么样的职业轨迹让你写出了这本书?
Let's let's shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about how you kind of, you know, got to this point and and, you know, what has been the the trajectory of your career that has led to this book?
嗯。
Mhmm.
当然。
Sure.
我实际上是一名数据科学家,更具体地说,是一名网络科学家,这意味着在过去二十年里,我一直在努力理解大型数据集以及数据点之间的依赖关系。
So so I'm actually a data scientist, and more precisely, I'm a network scientist, and which meant that I spent kind of the last twenty years, trying to understand large datasets and the dependence between the data points.
比如,我们研究了全球网络数据集,我们是第一个研究全球网络数据集的团队。
Like, we studied the worldwide we were the first to study the worldwide dataset network.
我的实验室位于哈佛医学院,主要研究细胞内的基因网络,以及这些网络的崩溃如何导致人类疾病。
My lab actually, at Harvard Medical School is focusing a lot on the genetic networks within the cells and how the breakdown of that network leads to human disease.
但我的实验室的一部分也专注于社交网络,得益于科学出版物等数据的可获得性。大约五到八年前,我们开始思考:也许这些专业网络——比如科学家之间如何合作、如何互动——实际上决定了他们作为科学家的成功与否。
But also part of my lab is focusing on social networks, with the availability of data on science and kind of scientific publications and so on, But five or eight years ago, we kind of started thinking that, well, maybe these professional networks, like how scientists collaborate with each other, how they interact with each other, may actually determine their success as a scientist.
这成了一个契机。
And that was kind of a spark.
我们想到,既然我们对网络有如此多的了解,而且描述科学演变的数据也越来越丰富,也许我们可以基于这些知识来预测科学上的成功。
We said, well, given that we know so much about networks, and given the fact that the data is increasingly available to describe how science has evolved, maybe we can build on the knowledge and kind of predict scientific success.
这就是我们走上这条研究道路的初衷。
So that was the motivation why we went down that path.
但很快我们意识到,当我们谈论成功时,网络固然是故事中不可或缺的一部分,却并非唯一因素。
But then we soon realized that really, when we talk about success, it's really network are integral part of the story, but not the only one.
于是我们逐步不得不重新审视我们对成功的理解、用来描述成功的词汇,以及我们用来量化成功的数据和方法。
And then step by step, we had to kind of go and revise both the way we think about success as well as the vocabulary we use to speak about it, as well as kind of rethink about what is the data and approach that we take to kind of really quantify success.
而这正是这个公式所要表达的核心。
And that's really what the formula is about.
我应该先提一下,已经有很多关于成功的精彩著作。
And what I should just say as a preliminary thing is that fabulous books have been written about success.
其中一些是由非常成功的人撰写的,他们回顾了自己的成长历程。
Some of them are actually written by very successful people who have kind of recounting their own trajectory.
另一些则是由那些总结了一群成功人士经历并提炼出极具启发性信息的人所写。
Others were written by people who kind of summarize the trajectory of a group of successful individuals and distill information that is very inspiring.
我对这些方法的疑虑在于,虽然它们让我深受启发,但却缺乏安慰剂效应或对照研究。
The problem I have with these approaches is that I'm very inspired by them, but they're missing the placebo effect or the control study.
我的意思是,它们只关注成功的人,而没有去研究那些没有成功的人。
And what I mean by that is that they only look at successful individuals, and they're not looking at the individuals who did not succeed.
在医学领域,我曾研究过一个非常相关的案例:如果没有安慰剂,你就无法确定药物是否真正有效。
And we know from medicine, a very scenario that I've worked on, that if you don't have a placebo, you don't know where the drug works.
例如,如果你观察商业领域中100位极其成功的人,会发现他们全都早上6点起床开始工作,这很容易让人得出结论:早上6点起床是成功的秘诀。
For example, if you look at the 100 super successful individuals in the business sphere, and you would notice that all of them actually wake up, start working at 6AM, it's tempting to actually conclude that getting up at 6AM is the secret of success.
是的。
Yeah.
但当你环顾四周,会发现有上千万人也每天早上6点起床,却并未达到你样本中那种成功水平。
But then you look around and you find 10,000,000 people who do get up at 6AM and they don't achieve the success at the level that your sample did.
那么,问题出在哪里呢?
And then you say, what's wrong with that?
这是因为早上6点起床可能并不是成功的根本驱动力。
Well, because getting up at 6AM may not be the driving force for success.
它可能只是众多成功特征中的一种表现,也就是我们所说的相关因素。
It may be just one of the signatures of the many of success, what we call correlates.
因此,在撰写这本书以及背后的研究中,我们谨慎地不仅关注成功,也关注了失败的情况。
So therefore, when I wrote the book as well as the research we did behind that, we were careful of not just to look at success, but to also look at the lack of success.
因此,我们获得了大量数据集,这些数据不仅涵盖了科学领域的诺贝尔奖得主,还包括自1900年至今所有发表过论文的科学家。
So we got access to massive data sets that describes not just the Nobel Prize winners in science, but all sciences that all scientists that have written papers since 1900 till today.
当我们研究艺术领域的成功时,我们不仅关注梵高和安迪·沃霍尔这样的艺术家,还考察了过去四十年中所有参展的艺术家,从而将失败与成功一并纳入分析。
When we look at success in art, we're not just looking at the Van Goghs and the Andy Warhols, but we're looking at every single artist that exhibited in the last forty years, so we have the failures together with successes.
这正是我们看待成功故事这一数据问题的核心精神。
And that's that's really the spirit in which we approach as a data problem of the success story.
哇。
Wow.
这引发了许多问题。
So so many questions come to that.
接下来,我们将深入探讨你在书中提到的五大法则。
So we will actually get into the the five laws that you you wrote about in the book.
但我最近一直在思考一个问题,并为此写了一篇文章,标题是‘那个让所有成功公式失效的显而易见的因素——那就是人本身。’
But one of the things that I've been thinking about, and I wrote a post about this recently, and it was titled the blatantly obvious variable that throws off every formula for success, which is the person.
对吧?
Right?
因为我可以带某人参加我们的在线课程,他们却会因为自身特质而得到截然不同的结果。
Because I can take somebody through one of our online courses, and they will get drastically different results just because of how they're built.
比如,有人完全可以完全复制我生活中的所有做法。
Like, somebody could literally replicate everything that I do in my life.
另一个例子。
Another example.
对吧?
Right?
两个孩子在同一个家庭中长大。
Two kids raised in the same house household.
我妹妹和我都上了加州大学伯克利分校,父母也一样。
My sister and I both went to Berkeley, same parents.
她表现优异,成功考入医学院。
She kicked ass, got into med school.
而我差点被伯克利开除。
I nearly failed out of Berkeley.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我在想,作为一位写过名为《公式》这本书的人,你是如何看待这种差异性的呢?
And so I wonder, as somebody who has written a book called The Formula, how do you think about that sort of variability?
因为对我来说,这种差异正是破坏每一个公式的最关键变量。
Because that to me is the the the sort of critical variable that throws off every formula.
当然。
Oh, absolutely.
我经常思考这个问题,这正是《公式》第十章的内容,也就是第五条法则,我们称之为Q因子。
I think a lot about that, and that's chapter 10 in the formula, the fifth law, and we call it the Q factor.
我们必须承认,有些人天生具备某种职业所需的天赋,而其他人则没有,对吧?
We must acknowledge that some people have talents and others don't for a certain profession, right?
在我们拥有足够数据的情况下,我们能够量化出一个人在特定职业中真正脱颖而出的潜力。
And we're able to quantify in cases where we have enough data, what's your aptitude to really kind of kick ass in that particular profession.
对吧?
Right?
所以,如果数据存在,这是可以量化的。我认为我们在科学领域已经取得了成功,现在正将这一理念扩展到其他领域。
So this is something that is quantifiable if the data is there, and we I think we did we were successful in the science space, and we're now extending that idea to other areas as well.
所以,是也不是,我们之间确实存在差异。
So yes and no, there are differences between us.
这是可以量化的。
That is quantifiable.
你不可能同时是一位出色的医生、一位画家,以及世界上跑得最快的人,对吧?
You cannot be at the same time a fabulous doctor and a painter and the best runner in the world, right?
这不仅仅是时间不足的问题,还涉及天赋。
It's not only simply a lack of time, but it's also an aptitude.
成功的一部分就在于找到那个你的Q因子最大的职业或事业,我们会讨论什么是Q因子。
And part of the success story is to find that, find that that profession or vocation for which your q factor is maximal, and we'll talk about what the q factor is.
是的。
Yeah.
我们会深入探讨这个话题。
We'll we'll get into that.
那我们来具体谈谈这五条法则吧。
So let's let's actually get into the the five laws.
我的意思是,我记得你提到第一条,你说,表现推动成功,但当表现无法衡量时,网络则推动成功。
I mean, I remember the the first one, you said, you know, performance drives success, but when performance can't be measured, networks drive success.
你还说,即使我们认为自己是独自工作的,实际上也从不孤立。
And you say that, you know, we never work in isolation even when we think we do.
我们对成功的共同定义,要求我们思考自己的工作如何影响他人。
Our collective definition of success requires to think about the ways that our work impacts others.
如果我们想让世界更贴近我们的生活,就需要找到能加速我们前进轨迹的枢纽,并与之建立联系。
If we wanna bring the world up there nearer to our doorsteps, we need to find the hubs that can accelerate our trajectories and reach out to them.
你该怎么做呢?
How do you do that?
然后我觉得另一件让我印象深刻的是,你说即使一个孩子申请了顶尖大学但没被录取,也更有可能成功,这个观点非常有趣。
And then I think the other thing that really struck me was you said just the the fact that a kid applied to an elite college, even if they didn't get in, actually made them more likely to succeed, which thought was fascinating.
这本来是打算作为一个问题提出的吗?
This was this was meant to be one question?
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
我的天啊。
My goodness.
好吧。
All right.
所以让我们稍微退一步,谈谈我们该如何定义成功。
So let's just step back a little bit and talk about how do we define success.
显然,我们学习并被教导说,表现会带来成功。
And so obviously, we learn and we've been told that performance leads to success.
在教育、锻炼和练习中,一切都围绕着提升你的表现。
And when it comes to schooling and exercise and practice, it's all about enhancing your performance.
正如我们前面所说,这也是我真正对待生活的方式。
And this is how, as we said earlier, this is how I really approach my life.
我必须把我的工作做得非常出色,因为这样才能让我成功。
I have to be really good at what I do because that will make me successful.
那有什么不同呢?
What's the difference?
我们实际上区分二者的标准是,表现是你所做的事情,比如你跑得多快、你主持什么广播节目、你画什么样的画。
And the way we define actually the difference between them is that performance is something that you do, how fast you run, what radio shows you kind of do, what kind of paintings you paint.
然而,成功是社区从你的表现中看到、认可的,并最终如何奖励你的部分。
Success, however, is what the community sees, acknowledges from that performance, and eventually, how do they reward you for that.
换句话说,你的表现关乎你自己,但你的成功关乎我们——也就是能够注意到你所做事情的整个社群。
And the distinct so in other words, your performance is about you, but your success is about us, us being the community who can notice what you are doing.
鉴于此,成功始终是社群赋予你的集体性评价,而且成功有无数种衡量标准。
And given that, always success is a collective measure that the community provides to you, and there are many, many measures of success.
可能是有多少人收听你的节目,可能是商人赚了多少钱、他或她创办的公司规模有多大、收入有多少。
Could be how many people listen to your show, could be how much money a business make a businessman makes or how big the company that he or she funded and how much our revenues.
也可能是科学家的论文被引用了多少次,或者是哪些机构展出了艺术家的作品等等。
Could be simply how many citations a scientist's paper get, or could be who exhibited what institutions and artists work and so on.
所以成功并没有单一的衡量标准,但多种成功衡量方式的共同点在于,它不是由个人决定的,而是由社群决定的。
So there's not a single measure of success, but what is common between the multiple measures of success is that it's not not decided by the individual, but decided by the community.
我在听你的节目,因此我在为你的成功添砖加瓦。
I'm listening to your show, and therefore, I'm adding to your success.
我在购买你的艺术作品,因此我在为你的成功贡献力量。
I'm buying your art, and therefore I'm adding to your success.
我在听你的音乐。
I'm listening to your music.
我在阅读你的研究论文,等等。
I'm reading your research paper, and so on.
所以,一旦你理解了这个区别,接下来的问题就是:表现如何以及何时转化为成功?
So once you have this distinction, then the question is how and when does performance lead to success?
如果你是一名跑步运动员,这个问题就很简单。
And, well, if you are a runner, the question is simple.
对吧?
Right?
你跑得越快,作为跑步者的成就就越高。
The faster you run, the more successful you are as a runner.
这种关系没有任何歧义。
And there is no ambiguity about that relationship.
真正的问题出现在我们没有计时器的领域。
The problem really comes in areas where we do not have a chronometer.
坏消息是,我们大多数人一生都处在没有单一计时器来衡量我们表现如何的领域。
And the bad news is that most of us spend our life in areas where there is not a single chronometer to tell us how well we're doing what we're doing.
对吧?
Right?
如果你不考虑听众数量,该如何客观衡量你的节目有多好?
How do you objectively measure, if you don't factor in the number of listeners, how good your show is?
如果不看社区对这篇论文的反应,你如何判断它是否具有革命性?
How do you decide whether this paper is revolutionary or not without looking at the community's response to that?
对吧?
Right?
如果你忽略有多少人听这首歌,你怎么判断它是不是真的好?
How do you decide whether the song is really good or not if you are ignoring how many people listen to it?
所以,我们大多数人实际上都在没有计时器、或根本无法真正衡量自己表现的领域里工作。
So so most of us actually are really working in areas where we don't have a chronometer or we have no way of truly measuring our performance.
这并不是说我们无法区分弱的和强的,你不需要是专家就能做到,但要区分出强者中的强者却非常困难。
That is not to say that we cannot distinguish a weak from a strong one, that you don't have to be an expert to do that, but it's very difficult to measure distinguish the strong from strong one.
所以当表现无法衡量时,问题就来了:如果不是靠表现,那什么决定成功?
So now when performance is not measurable, then the question, what determines the success if it's not your performance?
这时候,网络就发挥作用了。
And that's where the networks come in.
而这方面最好的例子大概是艺术。
And the best example probably for this is art.
对吧?
Right?
我讲话的时候,面前放着一杯水。
I have a glass of water in front of me as I'm speaking to you.
这真的是一杯值一美元甚至更少的水,还是一幅价值百万美元的艺术品?
And is this really a glass of water worth a buck or maybe less, or is this really a million dollar artwork?
现在,它只是一杯水,因为它在我办公室里,但如果你看到同样的这杯水在奥马展出,你对它的讨论就会完全不同。
Well, right now, it's a glass of water because it's in my office, but if you would see the same glass of water exhibited in OMA, it would be a completely different discussion you would have about that.
对吧?
Right?
因此,艺术的价值,换句话说,并不是由物品本身的内在价值决定的,而是由那些几乎看不见的网络决定的,这些网络将这杯水视为艺术。
So the value of art, in other terms, is really not determined by the intrinsic value of the object itself, but by almost invisible networks who kind of dedicate their glass of water as art.
这些网络包括:谁接触过它、谁把它放在那里、它此刻所在的位置、哪些机构曾展出过它,以及艺术家在这件作品之前或之后的职业生涯如何。
That is who touched it, who put it there, where it is at that moment, what other institutions have exhibited it before, and what did the artist do before in his or her career or after that particular artwork.
对吧?
Right?
所以,如果孤立地只看这件物品本身,而忽略所有这些因素,你就无法判断它是否是艺术,也无法确定它的价值。
So so so just looking at the object itself in isolation from all of these factors, you're unable to decide, first of all, whether it's art or not, and what is its valuation.
我们最终通过分析全球五十万位艺术家的艺术生涯来探讨这个问题,研究他们在过去四十年中是否曾被展出,而这一分析基于一个由某机构提供的宝贵数据集。
And we ended up kind of going after this question by analyzing the artistic career of half a million artists all over the world and were they exhibited in the last forty years through a very valuable dataset that was provided to us by an institution.
在那种情况下,我们展示的是,我可以通过观察艺术家在各个机构之间的展览迁移来绘制出这些机构之间的无形网络——比如安迪·沃霍尔的作品今天在哪儿展出,明天又会在哪儿展出,这种关联为我构建了一个网络。
And and what we showed in that case that I can map out this invisible network between the institutions by simply looking how this the artist moved from one institution to another one in their exhibits, that where was Andy Warhol this exhibited today, and where here will be exhibited tomorrow, and that kind of connects the institutions to me for me and creates a network.
而这个网络本身非常、非常能预测你未来的艺术生涯。
And that network itself is very, very predictive how what will be your artistic career.
如果你能给我你作为艺术家之前的五个展览经历,我就能提前二十年预测你未来的艺术成就,告诉你你将会有多成功。
That if on your network, you give me the five exhibits that you had before as an artist, I can fast forward your more over your career twenty years into the future and tell you how successful will you be as an artist.
为什么会这样?
Why is that?
因为你在网络中的位置决定了公众对你艺术价值的评判,也决定了你的未来走向,因为只有通过这个从机构到机构的网络链接,你的作品才能得以传播。
Because where you are in that network determines the community's valuation of, you know, what's your art is perceived to be worth and determines your future trajectory because only along the links of this network from institution to institution your art can travel.
而且你没有可量化的表现会破坏这个故事。
And because you don't have a measurable performance that can mess that story up.
所以一旦我确定了你的网络位置,我就能预测你的未来。
So once I place your network, I can predict your future.
退一步想想。
Step back.
我们通常发现,在绩效无法衡量的领域,网络真正起到了主导作用。
What we in general are finding is that in areas where performance is not measurable, it's the network that really takes over.
这里我们谈论的不是盲目地结识尽可能多的人,而是要精准理解那些在你特定职业中创造价值、评估或成功地位的隐形网络。
And here we're not talking about mindless networking to just go out and know as many people as possible, but talking about precisely understanding those invisible networks that create valuation or value or success in your particular profession.
每个领域都非常不同。
And each area is very different.
在艺术领域,我们成功地揭示了这种网络,并提取了它的预测能力。
In the in the case of art, we were able to kind of uncover that network and extract the predictive power.
因为如果你从事商业,可能涉及的是完全不同的网络类型,我们刚刚在实验室启动了一个项目来绘制这种网络。
Because if you are in business, maybe a completely different type of network, and we just started a project in my lab to map that out.
所以,如果你是一名创业者,就要弄清楚绩效和隐形网络如何真正影响你创办一家成功公司的能力。
So if you are an entrepreneur, find out how does performance and the invisible networks really affect your ability to start a company that will be successful.
我们相信在这方面会取得良好进展,因为数据正在变得可获取,我们在艺术和其他领域观察到的相同概念在这里也同样适用。
And we think we're gonna do a good progress on that because the data is becoming available and the same concepts what we saw in art and other areas apply here as well.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣,因为当你描述这些时,我不禁想到我们打造‘不可否认的创意’的方式——毕竟我采访了700个人,我自己已经成了一个中心,周围连着许多分支。
Well, it's it's interesting because as as you're describing that, I couldn't help but think about kind of the the way that we've built unmistakable creative because having interviewed 700 people, like, I've made myself a hub with all these spokes to it.
我不禁想知道,这种结构在我走到今天——能够写书、做演讲——的过程中究竟起到了什么作用。
And I wonder, you know, at times what role that has actually played in me, you know, getting to the point where I get to write books and give speeches and all that stuff.
我确信你扮演了非常重要的角色,也许你无意中碰巧找到了正确的网络,让你的才华得以最充分地展现。
And I'm sure you played a very important role, and it may have been you may have intuitively stumbled across the right network that your talents can be expressed in the best way.
对吧?
Right?
所以,如果你说,比如,我采访了一百位非常成功的企业家,然后自己开了一家公司,这或许是一种理解方式。
So if you would have said, for example, that, oh, I interviewed these 100 very successful entrepreneurs, and now I went and started a company, maybe that that's one way to think about it.
或者,你实际上开了一家艺术画廊。
Or or or then you actually and opened an art gallery.
我不确定你从那里面获得的网络信息是否真的对路。
I'm not so sure that was the right network information you gained from it.
对吧?
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你说,嘿,我现在要写一本书,真实地传达我的发现,那么你很可能就接入了与你所面对问题相匹配的正确网络。
But if you say, hey, now I'm gonna write a book and I'm gonna actually communicate about my findings, then you probably kind of tap yourself into the right network for the problem that you're dealing with.
是的。
Yeah.
所以关于这一点,我很好奇,我们在谈论衡量标准,我记得我们曾和我的朋友哈尔·纽波特交谈,他说,衡量标准本质上是一把双刃剑。
So one one thing I wonder about this, know, we're talking about measurement, and I remember we're talking to, you know, my friend, Hal Newport, and he said, you know, metrics are kind of a double edged sword.
对吧?
Right?
因为一旦你有了衡量标准,不可避免地会导致比较,因为总有人比你落后,也总有人比你领先。
Because if you have metrics, inevitably, what that's going to lead to is comparison because there's always somebody who's either behind you or ahead of you.
总有人卖出了更多的书,赚了更多的钱,也总有人赚得更少。
There's always somebody who has sold more books, has more money, and there's always somebody who has less.
你该如何在这种动态中保持清醒,不被逼疯?
How do you navigate that dynamic without losing your mind?
这确实是真的,但这是因为我们的指标太少,而且过于针对某些大问题。
Well, it is certainly true, but that's because we have too few metrics and they're too tailored to some big problems.
对吧?
Right?
实际上,我坚信多样性,我们每个人都可以在这个世界中拥有属于自己的空间,这些可能无法被大指标捕捉到,但依然非常宝贵。
So and I actually believe in diversity, that that we can all have kind of space in the world that maybe is not captured by the big metrics, but is still very valuable.
让我举一个具体的例子。
So let me give a specific one.
我们身处美国。
You know, we're in America.
在美国,有一个至关重要的大指标,那就是金钱。
In America, there's one big metric that really matters, which is money.
对吧?
Right?
但我是一名科学家。
Well, I'm a scientist.
我确实需要钱来生活和做科研,但我的成功标准并不是金钱。
I do need money to actually live and to do my science, but my measure of success is not money.
对吧?
Right?
如果你真的开始根据净资产或收入来排名,这完全不会让我困扰,也不会影响我的行为,因为这不是我思考自己影响力的方式。
And if you actually start ranking people based on their net worth or income, it doesn't bother me at all or doesn't affect my actions because that's not the way I think about it, where where my impact should be.
如果你说,也许我们应该根据引用次数来排名,那么我会说,好吧,这确实更接近我所做的事情。
Now if you say, well, maybe we should actually rank people by citations and so on, then you would say, okay, yeah, that's kind of getting closer to what I do.
但我不仅做科研,还写书、搞教育,也提出一些不会变成论文的想法,但会转化为其他形式的成果等等。
But I not only do science, I also write books, I also educate, and I also come up with ideas that don't turn into papers, but turn into some other, you know, outputs and so on.
所以没有任何一个单一指标能真正定义我的人生。
So there's not a single metric that can really define my life.
我想,过去二三十年我们学到的是,世界变得如此多元化,已经没有任何单一指标能涵盖一切。
And if anything that we learned, I think, the last twenty, thirty years is that the world became so diversified that there are no single metrics that can capture the whole thing.
所以我不认为大多数人会因为自己不在最富有的100人名单上而感到沮丧,我们生活中还有其他更重要的事情要做。
So I don't think that most people will actually go depressed if they are saying, hey, I'm not really on the list of the 100 richest person, We have other things to do in our lives.
所以我实际上认为,我们拥有的衡量标准太少,而且这些标准太过粗糙。
So I actually think that we have too few metrics, and the metrics are too crude.
当人们试图用这些粗糙的标准来衡量自己时,他们并不会因此感到沮丧,而是觉得这些标准根本与我无关。
And when people try to measure themselves with those crude metrics, it's not that they get depressed, it's more so like, this is just not relevant for me.
是的。
Yeah.
那我们来谈谈第二条法则,你提到表现是有限的,但成功是无限的。
So let's get into this idea of law number two, which you said performance is bounded, but success is unbounded.
你提到,理解每个选拔过程中固有的随机性,我们往往能更好地认识到,成功往往是一场数量的游戏。
And you said understanding the inherent randomness in every selection, we can often better appreciate how success is often a numbers game.
如果你想赢得比赛,就要参加大量的比赛。
If you wanna win competitions, you enter a slew of them.
如果你想找工作,就必须投出大量的简历。
If you wanna get a job, you must send out plenty of resumes.
如果你想获得主角角色,就需要不断参加试镜。
If you want a starring role, you need to step up for audition after audition.
你无法控制自己是第一个还是最后一个上台,但就像你需要买多张彩票来提高中奖几率一样,只要你持续参与,就更有可能获得心仪的机会。
You can't control whether you're first or last to take the stage, but just as you need to buy multiple tickets to widen your odds of winning the lottery, you're far more likely to score a preferred shot on the roster if you keep showing up.
哇。
Wow.
对我来说,这真是其中一件让我深受触动的事情,因为说实话,我曾经开玩笑说,我写的东西有98%都是垃圾。
And that to me was, you know, one of those things that really struck me because, you know, I I honestly I have jokingly said, I'm like, you know, I 98% of what I write is complete crap.
我只是写得很多,正因如此,我才得以达到能写出一本书的水平。
I just write a lot, hence the reason I've been able to get to the point where I could write a book.
是的。
Yes.
所以确实,这一切都源于表现是有限的这一事实。
So indeed, this kind of it's really it all comes from the fact that performance is bounded.
让我们谈谈这意味什么。
And let's talk about what that means.
对吧?
Right?
正如我们所说,表现是我们每个人作为个体所做的事情,这与社群无关。
So as we said, performance is something that we do, you do as an individual, so that's not about the community.
每次当我们能够衡量表现时,都会发现,在同一领域中努力表现的个体之间没有显著差异。
And and every time we're able to measure performance, we find that there are no major differences between the individuals who are trying to perform in the same space.
我这话是什么意思呢?
What do I mean by that?
再想想地球上的情况。
So think about for on Earth again.
尤塞恩·博尔特显然是地球上跑得最快的人。
Usain Bolt is clearly the fastest man on earth.
对吧?
Right?
没有人对此有异议。
No one is questioning that.
但当你真正分析他的跑步表现时,会发现他比奥运会亚军的速度只快了大约百分之一。
But when you actually look at his performance as a runner, it turns out that he's only a purse one percent better in terms of speed than the loser of the Olympics.
对吧?
Right?
而且他不仅比排在第二的人只强了一点点,你知道的,他并没有比我快十倍、五倍甚至十倍,而我根本就不是个好跑者,对吧?
And not only that he's only just slightly better than the next one on the list, but, you know, he's not running ten five 10 times faster than I do, and even though I'm not a good runner at all, right?
所以我们可以看到,当谈到健康人跑步的速度时,这个范围其实非常有限,是一个相对狭窄的区间,当然尤塞恩·博尔特处于顶端,但不同竞争者或个体之间的差异并不大。
So case so what we see that when it comes to the speed that people run with, healthy people run with, it's really bounded in a relatively small region, a small range, of which obviously Usain bought at the top, but there are not huge differences between the different competitors or individuals.
而且这并不仅仅局限于速度。
And this is not unique to speed.
在大多数涉及人类表现的领域,你所做的事情,结果都显示其范围非常有限,个体之间的差异并不显著。
In most areas, when it comes to human performance, things that you do, it turns out to be very bounded, that there are no huge differences between the individuals.
这带来了一个后果。
Now that has a consequence.
从数学上讲,我们称这些分布为有界分布或指数分布。
Mathematically, we call that these distributions are bounded or exponential distributions.
其中一个后果是,当你观察顶尖表现时,这些顶尖成绩在数学上注定非常接近,几乎无法区分,除非你拥有极其精确的表现测量手段。
And one of the consequences that when you look at the top, the top performance, those are mathematically bound to be very virtually indistinguishable unless you have very, very accurate measures of performance.
因此,在缺乏精确计时设备的领域,很难真正区分顶尖表现。
So as a result, in areas where we lack lack a chronometer, it's difficult to really distinguish the top performance.
一个很好的例子是音乐。
And a beautiful example is music.
例如,我在公式中提到的伊丽莎白女王大赛,自1937年以来一直是古典音乐界的造星工厂。
And, for example, I talk in the formula about the Queen Elizabeth competition, which is really the star maker in classical music since 1937.
这项比赛每两到三年举办一次,具体取决于乐器类型。
And this is a competition that kind of happens every two or three years depending on, instrument.
他们的目标是找出最优秀的小提琴手或钢琴家,而赢得比赛的人会一夜之间成为明星,因为各大音乐厅会向他们敞开大门,录音也会随之展开等等。
And and what they try to do is to find the best violinist or the best pianist, and whoever wins that competition becomes overnight a star because the major concert host will open their doors, it will be recorded, and so on.
这是一场组织得非常严谨的比赛,确保没有人获得不公平的优势。
And it's it's a very well put together competition, making sure that no one has an unfair advantage.
大约每轮有100人参赛,最终筛选出12名决赛选手,这12名选手将在六天内轮流演出,每天两人,顺序随机,确保公平。
About every time about 100 people start, they are narrowed down to 12 finalists, And then the 12 finalists get to perform over six days, two per day, in a randomly chosen order, so no one has an advantage.
最重要的是,所有选手都演奏为该比赛特别创作的同一首钢琴或小提琴协奏曲。
And most important, they all play in the same piano or violin concerto that was composed specifically for that competition.
所以你们不会因为提前知道曲目而占到不公平的优势,所有人都会在一周前才拿到曲目,演奏顺序也是现场抽签决定,以确保没有任何不当影响。
So you don't have an unfair advantage by knowing the piece ahead of time, and everybody gets it exactly one week before, and the greats are assigned on the spot so that would be no undue influence and so on.
尽管有这些谨慎的注意事项,但当你回顾自1937年以来这项比赛的记录时,还是会发现一些非常奇怪的现象。
Despite all of these cautionary notes, actually, when you look at the at the record of the competition since 1937, there are some really odd things that pop up.
首先,从未有人在第一天演奏后赢得比赛,这有点奇怪,因为演奏顺序是随机安排的。
The first is that no one has ever won the competition who played on the first day, which is kind of odd because the the order is randomly chosen.
所以,最优秀的钢琴家完全有可能被随机抽中成为第一个登台的选手。
So it could very well be that the the best pianist is kind of randomly picked to be the first one to open the competition.
而且我认为,只有一位获奖者是在第二天演奏后胜出的。
And and I think there's only one winner that won who played in day two.
所有的获奖者几乎都来自第四、第五、第六天,也就是比赛的后半段。
All the winners really come from the day kind of four, five, six, towards the end of the competition.
不仅如此。
Not only that.
如果你在同一天是第二个演奏的,平均而言,你的排名会比第一个演奏的人高出两个名次左右。
If you are actually the second on the same day, you have about two you get you get ranked about two spots higher on average than if you are the first the same day.
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所以你出场越晚,无论是当天还是整个比赛周期内,获胜的机会就越大。
So so the later you play, even in terms of the day as well as during the week, the more chances you will have that you win the competition.
这怎么可能呢?
Now how is that possible?
答案其实很简单。
Well, the answer is very simple.
首先,由世界顶尖音乐专家组成的评审团,面临着一项几乎不可能完成的任务:在12位同龄最优秀的钢琴家中选出最出色的一位。
First of all, the jury who is made of the top music experts in the world has this almost impossible task to decide who is the best pianist among the 12 best pianist in the world in their age generation.
这些选手个个都极其出色。
These guys are all fabulous.
老实说,他们根本无法区分彼此。
And, honestly, they cannot distinguish them.
对吧?
Right?
当他们无法以客观方式衡量选手表现时,比如这么说:
So be and when they are unable to measure their performance in an objective way to say, okay.
这位演奏者比另一位更好,于是评委们开始使用其他机制来决定胜者。
This is a better player than the other one, they start using other mechanisms to arrive to a winner.
你最后听到的那位演奏者,你记得比之前听到的更清楚。
That the one that you actually listened last, you remember better than the one that you actually listened earlier.
你最后听到的那位,因为你已经通过前面几位的演奏训练了耳朵,所以你对什么是好的演奏有了更好的参照标准。
The one that you listened last, you have a better reference frame of how should he or she sound for because your ears got trained on the first few ones.
因此,近因效应占据了主导,而这种近因效应不仅存在于古典音乐中。
And therefore, the recency effect takes over, and the recency effect is not only in classical music.
如果你看花样滑冰比赛,总会发现,选手出场越靠后,获胜的可能性就越高。
If you look at the skating competition, you will always find that the figure skating competitions that the later someone plays, the higher chances they have winning.
而且,如果你想成为西班牙的法官,你可以从周一到周五参加考试。
And, you know, if you wanna become a judge in Spain, you can take an exam from Monday to Friday.
如果你被安排在周一参加考试,你成为法官的概率是百分之四十。
If you're chosen to be take to take the exam on Monday, you have forty percent chance of becoming a judge.
如果你在周五参加考试,你成为法官的概率是百分之六十。
On Friday, you have sixty percent chance of becoming a judge.
所以最终,在这种情况下,顶级表现其实难以区分,而我们是人类。
So at the end, what happens in this case is that, you know, on the top performance is indistinguishable, and we are humans.
我们必须做出决定,因此我们最终用其他特征来替代对表现的评判。
We must come to a decision, and therefore, we end up replacing the performance with other characteristics.
让我分享一个在这个案例中我特别喜欢的最后小故事。
And let me just share a final anecdote that I really loved in this case.
当这个公式刚面世时,大约有七家出版社想出版它,所以我们在这几家之间展开了一场竞争。
So when I when the formula was kind of on the market, about seven publishers wanted to publish it, so we had a competition between them.
竞争的一部分是我们对每家出版社进行访谈,询问编辑们为什么想出版这本书。
Part of the competition is that we interviewed each publisher and asking the editors why they want this book.
其中一位编辑说:‘我之所以想出版这本书,是因为它帮我解开了一个困扰我多年的谜题。’
And one of the editors said, You know, the reason I really wanna publish this book is because it helped me understand the puzzle that I've been wondering about for several years.
他说:‘每年,我都会为我工作的出版社面试五到六名实习生候选人。',
He said, Every year, I actually interview about five to six candidates for an internship in the publishing house where I work.
我不明白为什么,但每次来面试的最后一位候选人总是最优秀的。
And I do not understand why, but always the best candidate is the last to come for an interview.
所以我们进行了长时间的讨论,当然,这些候选人的到来完全是随机的。
So, and we had a long discussion, and of course, the candidates are completely random in the way they come.
但当他进行最后一次面试时,他变得最擅长提出正确的问题。
But by the time he arrives the last interview, became the best to ask the right questions.
他知道他想要从那个人身上得到什么。
He knows what he wants from that person.
当他提出正确的问题时,就能得到正确的答案。
And when he asks the right questions, he gets the right answer.
因此,我总是告诉我的学生:哦,你得到了某个职位的面试机会。
And for that reason, I always tell my students, oh, you got an interview for so and so job.
这意味着你具备胜任这份工作的能力。
That means that you have the performance to get the job.
但为了确保成功,你要弄清楚决策是什么时候做出的,并找尽一切理由把你的面试推迟到最后一刻。
But you in order to nail it, find out when the decision is made, and find every excuse possible to postpone your interview till the last moment.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得读过这个。
I remember reading that.
我想,我的天。
I thought, holy shit.
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
就像,是的。
Like, yeah.
我甚至一直感到疑惑。
I I I keep even wonder.
我有点想,哇。
I'm kind of like, wow.
你可以把这用在你的恋爱生活中。
You could apply that to your dating life.
如果某个女孩刚和别人分手,确保你不是她分手后第一个约出去约会的男生
If some girl has just broken up with somebody, make sure you're not the first guy she goes out on a date with after
分手后。
a breakup.
是的。
Yeah.
我们没有这方面的数据,但我们可以尝试一下。
We don't have data for that, but we could try.
你知道,如果你们真的这么做了,我会很好奇。
Well, you know, I'd be curious if if you did.
你提到的另一件事是,第三定律是:过去的成功乘以适应性等于未来的成功。
So another thing you mentioned is that the, you know, the third law was that previous success times fitness equals future success.
这让我很感兴趣,因为作为一个写过好几本书的作者,我在写第二本书时立刻发现,它在四分之一的时间内销量就超过了第一本书。
And this is interesting to me because as an author who's written multiple books, one of the the things that I saw immediately with my second book was that it outsold the first book in, like, a quarter of the time.
也就是说,它卖出的册数已经达到了我上一本书两年内才达到的水平。
Like, it's already reached as many copies sold as it you know, as my previous book did in two years.
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
那么这一切是怎么发生的呢?
So how does this all happen?
确实是。
Like, are the Absolutely.
背后的步骤是
Steps behind
所以,这个定律的一个关键要素是,成功会带来更多的成功。
So so so this there one of the key element of the of this law is that success breeds success.
你拥有的越多,下一次就会得到越多。
That is the more you have, the more you will get next time around that.
部分原因是因为你有了更多的能见度,但这一点其实早在二十年前,当我们研究万维网时就发现了——我们试图用定量的方式解释,为什么像谷歌和Facebook这样的网页会获得数亿个链接,而背后的机制是什么?
And and and partly because you have the visibility, but this is something that we actually discovered twenty years ago when we looked at the worldwide web, and we tried to explain in a quantitative terms why do we have such a highly connected web pages like Google and Facebook that, you know, hundreds of millions of other web pages linked to it, and what's the mechanism behind that?
我们意识到,这是一种我们称之为‘优先连接’的现象。
And what we realized is that there is what we call preferential attachment.
也就是说,一个网站在网页上的链接越多,它将来就会获得越多的链接。
That is the more links you have on the web as a website, the more you will get.
结果发现,这是一个非常慷慨的表述。
And it turned out this to be a very generous statement.
你的论文被引用得越多,它将来就会获得越多的引用。
The more citations your paper have, the more they will get.
你的听众越多,未来你就会获得越多的听众。
The more listeners you have, the more you will get in the future.
现在你可能会说,好吧。
Now you would say, okay.
这没问题。
That's fine.
但这一点或许可以用才华或质量来简单解释。
But this could be simply explained by talent or quality.
对吧?
Right?
因为也许谷歌之所以获得如此多的链接,是因为它们在自己擅长的领域真的非常出色。
Because maybe those the Google the reason why it gets Facebook so many links is because they're really very, very good at what they do.
对吧?
Right?
因此,收集更多链接的人比收集较少链接的人更优秀。
And therefore, the one who collect many links are better than those who collect fewer.
并不是影响力让强者更强,而是才华让强者更强。
And it's not the reach gets richer, but the talent that gets richer.
于是,有人做了非常出色的对照实验,证明情况并非如此简单。
So that's where actually the data comes in that people who did very nice control experiments to show that it's not that simple.
我最喜欢的一个实验是由社会学家阿诺德·范尼施进行的,他现在住在荷兰,他通过分析维基百科上每位编辑每天的编辑次数及其对网站的贡献,找出了前200位最活跃的编辑。
And my favorite experiment was done by Arnold Van Nisch, who's a sociologist who now lives in Holland, and he actually went to Wikipedia and identified the 200 most active editors on Wikipedia by simply how many edits they did per day and what was their contributions to the site.
然后他将这些编辑随机分成两组。
And then he grouped them into two groups where the people were randomly placed on group one or group two.
于是他得到了两组完全相同的编辑群体。
And so he had two identical pool of editors.
他们之间的共同点是,所有人都是杰出的编辑,非常活跃于维基百科,除此之外,他们之间没有任何区别,因为在这前200名名单中,谁进入第一组或第二组完全是随机分配的。
What was common between them, they were all fabulous editors, very active in Wikipedia, and otherwise there was no distinction between them because it was randomly chosen who goes into group one or group two on this top 200 list.
他接下来的举措是,给第一组中的一半人发放了奖励。
What he did next is that he took one group one and gave them a reward.
所谓奖励,就是在维基百科上,你可以为编辑的贡献授予一种叫做‘谷仓星’的荣誉。
A reward means that on Wikipedia, you can award each editor what we call a barn star for their contributions to Wikipedia.
于是,第一组的每个成员都获得了一个巴拉巴西奖。
And so half of group one, every member got a Barabasi.
第二组的成员则没有人获得巴拉巴西奖,尽管他们的表现与第一组一样优秀。
Group two, no member got a Barabasi even though they were just as good as the group one.
然后他观察了接下来几个月里发生的情况。
And then he watched what happened, you know, in the coming months.
三个月后,他发现,那些没有获得奖励的100名编辑,在这三个月内总共获得了三个谷仓星,这意味着其他人因为他们的出色表现而奖励了他们,因为他们确实非常优秀。
And what he saw three months later is that the group who did not get an award, the 100 editors, in that three month period got three bar stars, which means that people have rewarded them for their exceptional performance because they were really good.
但那些被他提前奖励过的小组,却额外获得了十二个奖项。
But the group that he rewarded got 12 more awards.
所以,现在来看看这个。
So so now look at this.
这两个群体之间没有任何区别,只是其中一个得到了奖励,另一个没有,而得到奖励的那组在未来获得的奖励远远多于没有得到奖励的那组。
There's no difference between the two groups except one of them got an award, the other one didn't, and the one who got are way getting way more awards in the future than one who didn't.
这纯粹是‘富者愈富’现象在发挥作用。
And this is purely kind of rich get richer phenomena in action.
你知道,你更有可能把奖励给那些你相信值得获得的人。
You know, you're much more likely to give an award to someone that you trust that it deserves that.
那你怎么知道这个人值得获得奖励呢?
And how do you trust that the person deserves that?
当你无法客观地评估表现时,你就看还有谁给过他们奖励,以及你是否信任那个决定。
Well, when you cannot objectively see the performance, well, you look at who else gave an award to them and whether you trust that decision or not.
所以,要想获得奖励,你首先得变得值得被奖励。
So in order to get an award, you have to become awardable.
也就是说,要想成功,你首先得已经成功了。
That is that in order to become successful, you have to become successful in the first place.
对。
Right.
所以这就是我们所说的成功带来成功,甚至还有一个特定的公式:通常,你的成功与之前获得的成功呈线性关系。
So that's that's what we call success beats success, and there's even a particular formula to say, you know, typically success goes linearly with the previous success that you acquired.
所以当你谈论书籍时,你的销量与过去卖出的书籍数量成正比。
So your your sales are proportionate to how many books you sold in the few in the past when it comes to books.
但当然,我们之间仍然存在差异,所以在这个故事里,质量和天赋并不重要。
But of course, there's still differences between us, so that quality and talent doesn't matter in this story.
因此,最终的规律是:过去的成功乘以适应性,等于你未来的成功。
And that's why the law actually at the end says is previous time success times fitness is your future success.
让我给你举一个关于书籍的例子。
And let me give you an example of a book.
对?
Right?
所以你卖出了第一本书,而且卖得非常好,然后你的第二本书出版了。
So you have sold, you know, one book that has sold very well, and then your second book comes out.
所有之前读过你作品、喜欢你写作风格的读者,可能会读到你的第二本书,然后说:其实我不太喜欢这个。
And all your readers who read you before who like what you wrote may get to the second book and say, you know, I really don't like that.
第一本可能是关于冰淇淋的,而这本讲的是足球,而我根本不是个足球迷。
The first one maybe was about ice cream, and this one is about football, and I'm really not a football guy.
对吧?
Right?
顺便说一下,我读了这本书,发现它和我的喜好不太契合。这意味着,你每一本书或每一个推出的产品,都有一个‘契合度’参数。
And by the way, I read the book, and it's not really fitting with my So that means that your sec that that, you know, each of your book or each of the products that you put out have a fitness parameter.
你可以把契合度理解为该作品或产品的内在价值,但它其实不是关于产品本身,而是关于大众对其质量的评价。
You could think of fitness as being the intrinsic value of that object or that product, but it's really not something about the object itself, but about the community's perception of how good that is.
我们可以在许多系统中衡量这种契合度。
And we can measure that in in in many systems.
实际上,契合度越高,成功的增长就越快。
And effectively, the higher the fitness, growth the faster of the success.
最终,成功带来成功,但这条增长曲线的速率,实际上是由这本书的内在价值决定的。
At the end, success leads to success, but the growth rate of that curve is really determined by the intrinsic value of that particular book.
两者都是必要的,我认为我提供了一些例子来说明它们各自的重要性。
They're both necessary, and I think I offer a couple of examples to show how both of them are necessary.
其中一个例子是哈利·罗林斯写的书,她当时用笔名出版了一本侦探小说,但并未公开作者身份,结果这本书几乎无人注意,总共只卖出了大约500本。
One of them, of course, is the Harry Rollins book when she wrote actually a book under a pseudonym, not releasing that actually was her book, a detective story, and actually really didn't release, no one noticed, about 500 copies were sold altogether of the book.
这是一种情况:这本书本身可能具有很好的内在价值,评论也非常正面,但作者缺乏以往的成功背景。
And that was a situation where the book may have had actually good intrinsic fitness and the reviews were very, very positive, but the author lacked previous success.
而当有人发现真正的作者其实是罗兰时,这本书突然一夜之间成了畅销书。
And in the moment somebody figured out that actually the real author is Roland, then suddenly became overnight a bestseller.
所以,以往的成功确实很重要,因为它能为产品带来关注。
So really, previous success matters because that brings attention to the product.
但内在价值也很关键,因为一旦我接触到这个产品——无论是读书、听音乐还是看节目——我的评价就会决定我是否推荐给别人,对吧?
But fitness matters because once I encounter the product, I evaluate it by reading the book, listening to music, listening to the show, and then that evaluation determines whether I'm gonna tell others to listen to it or buy it, right?
这两者共同决定了未来的成功。
And they together are the factors that determine the future success.
这就是公式的第三条法则。
That's the third law of the formula.
哇。
Wow.
哇。
Wow.
好的。
Alright.
所以你说的第四条法则是:团队成功依赖于多样性和平衡,但个人却会获得整个团队成就的荣誉;然而你又说,当我们挑选人才时,如果优先考虑个人成就而非团队成果,我们很少能得到期望的结果。
So the fourth law you say is while team success reverse diversity and balance, a single individual will receive credit for the group's achievement, yet you also say when we handpick for talent, prioritizing individual accomplishment over achievement, we rarely get the results that we hope for.
那么,你如何解决这两个悖论呢?
So how do you resolve those two paradoxes?
所以第四条法则实际上确实是关于团队的。
So the fourth law really is indeed about teams.
对吧?
Right?
我们为什么关心团队?
And why do we care about teams?
我们关心这些事情,是因为过去几十年世界变得极其复杂,几乎没有什么事情能靠一个人单独完成。
We care about things because the world got really complex in the last decades, and there's almost nothing that we can achieve alone.
我们需要依靠他人来实现我们的梦想。
We need to rely on others to kind of achieve our dreams.
这一点在科学领域尤为明显,因为在1990年代之前,最具影响力的科研成果都来自单作者。
And this is particularly true in science where until the 1990s, the highest impact research came out from single authors.
但自1990年代以来,最具影响力的研究成果始终来自团队,即两名或更多合作者共同合作完成的发现。
But since the 1990s, the highest impact work is always associated with teams, two or more collaborators working together to make that discovery.
因此,当涉及到团队时——而参与团队已是不可避免的——就会出现两个问题。
So so when it comes to teams, and it's unavoidable that we have to participate in teams, two questions come up.
如何组建正确的团队?
How do you form the right team?
第一个。
Number one.
第二个是,一旦你成为团队一员,假设团队取得了成功,当这么多人都为这个想法或产品做出了贡献时,你该如何获得应有的认可?
And the second one is that once you're part of a team, and let's say the team is successful, how do you get credit for the team's work when so many of you have contributed to that idea or the product?
那我们来谈谈第一个问题。
So let's talk about the first one.
如何组建一个正确的团队?
How do you form the right team?
这实际上是名为‘团队科学’的一系列长期研究的一部分,许多经济学家、商业研究者以及科学家都在从事这项研究。
And this is actually part of a long line of research that is called team science that quite a number of economists and business researcher as well as scientists are working on.
在这个领域中,已经有一些明确的结论。
And there are a couple of clean results in that space.
其中之一是关于表现良好的团队是什么样子的。
One of them is actually has to do with how the how does a team with good performance look like?
那么,什么是表现良好的团队呢?
And what does it mean to have a team with good performance?
当团队的目标是实现某个我们知道可以达成但具有挑战性的事情时,比如构建一条供应链。
It's when the team's goal is to achieve something that we know it's achievable but is difficult, right, is to kind of generate a supply chain.
我们知道这是可能的,但会很困难。
We know it's possible, but it's gonna be difficult.
到达一个艰难的地形,开车通过,是的,等等。
Get to a difficult terrain, a car through, yeah, and so on.
而研究实际上表明,对于那些以绩效为目标的团队来说,关键并不在于团队中必须有很多天才,事实上,这反而对团队不利。
And what the research actually shows is that when it comes to teams that are really aimed for performance, then the the what is key is that that not necessary to have lots of geniuses on the team, actually, that's not good for the team.
因此,团队成员的个体智商和个体表现并不是影响因素,个体成员的教育水平也不是影响因素。
So the individual IQ and the individual performance of the team members is not a factor, nor is the education level of the individual team factor team members.
真正重要的是多样性,让各种不同类型的人聚集在一起。
What really matters is diversity to have many different type of people together.
第二,关键在于能够互相关注,也就是说团队要横向协作,没有人主导讨论。
Second, what is key is the ability to pay attention to each other, that is that the team to work horizontally and no one to kind of dominate the discussion.
第三个因素是,团队中拥有女性非常重要。
And the third factor is effectively it's important to have women in the team.
那么,对于以绩效为导向的团队来说,就是这样。
Now so that's for performance oriented teams.
然而,当你试图组建一个目标不明确、旨在发现新事物的团队时,会发生什么呢?
However, what happens when you try to have a team that it doesn't have a very clear goal, but it's about to discover something?
它旨在推出一种全新的产品,比如一款前所未见的新手机。
It's about to produce a new product, like a new phone that no one has seen before.
对吧?
Right?
或者为一个尚未被认知的问题开发软件。
Or produce a software for a problem that it's not known that exists.
对吧?
Right?
那么,真正具有创新性的团队是如何运作的呢?
So really innovative teams, how do they work?
在这种情况下,我们看到的是相反的模式。
And in that case, we see the opposite pattern.
在那里,横向协作并不重要。
There, the horizontal, it doesn't matter.
我们发现,在真正卓越的创新团队中,大部分工作是由一个人完成的,而其他成员只是在支持那个人的工作。
What we see is that in teams that are really excelling innovation, much of the work is done by one individual, and the rest of the people are really just contributing to that person's work.
在创新团队中,你需要一个领导者,那个真正推动故事发展的人,这个人需要其他人帮助他实现自己的愿景,但这并不是关于团队内部的平等和一致性。
That is in innovative teams, you need a leader, the one that actually drives the story, and that person needs others to kind of help him kind of achieve his vision or her vision, but it's really not about having equality and uniformity within the team setting.
所以对我来说,这真的非常有趣,因为我们总是寻找万能的答案。
So really, this is for me, this was really fascinating because we always look for one size fits all answers.
对吗?
Right?
而这恰恰告诉我们,不,这不是一个万能答案。
And and this was kind of telling us, no, it's it's not one size fits all.
你必须非常清楚自己想要实现什么。
You have to be really clear about what you're trying to achieve.
在这种情况下,你是想创新,还是想解决一个你已知有解决方案或存在困难的问题?
In this case, are you trying to innovate or are you trying to solve a well known problem that you know there's a solution or it's difficult?
而你组建的团队很大程度上取决于你所设定的目标。
And the team you put together very much depends on the goal that you have there.
哇。
Wow.
所以,我的意思是,你所描述的第二种情况,在我看来,就像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样。
So, I mean, it sounds like the second version that you're describing is very much like, in my mind, as you're describing that, oh, that's Steve Jobs.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
当然。
Absolutely.
当然,说到史蒂夫·乔布斯,我们现在进入第二部分了,那就是说,好吧。
And and and, of course, when it comes to Steve Jobs, now we're in the second part of the lob is to say, alright.
你觉得有多少人参与了iPhone的开发?
How many people do you think that contributed to developing the iPhone?
可能有一千人吗?
Maybe a thousand?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
几百人?
Hundreds?
一千人?
A thousand?
那你真正了解其中有多少人呢?
And how many of them do you actually know about?
就他和乔尼·艾维。
Him and Johnny Ive.
就这两个。
That's it.
你觉得乔尼·艾维有多少次像史蒂夫那样被大家熟知?
Think Johnny Ive has had had more moments where Steve Everyone knows Steve Jobs.
对吧?
Right?
而他却完全独占了所有的功劳。
And he totally walked away with the credit.
是的。
Yep.
对吧?
Right?
这就引出了一个深刻的问题,实际上第四条法则讨论的就是:团队工作的功劳该归谁?
And so then kind of raises this deep question that actually the the the fourth law discusses about is who gets the credit for the team's work?
嗯。
Mhmm.
之所以这个问题很难回答,是因为一旦团队完成了任务,外人就很难判断是谁提出了这个想法、谁做了大部分工作、谁找到了实现它所需的资金,以及谁的角色仅仅是确保咖啡总是温热、桌上总有甜甜圈。
And the reason why this is difficult is because once the team's job is achieved, it's very difficult for an outsider to kind of decide who was the one who came up with the idea, who did the lion's share of the work, who who found the financing to make that possible, and whose role was just simply make sure that the coffee is always warm and there are donuts on the table.
对吧?
Right?
最终,这些人的其中一个会因为团队的成功而获得晋升,甚至如果这是一篇科学论文,他或她还可能获得诺贝尔奖。
And and and at the end, one of those people will actually get promoted for the team's success, and, he or she may even get a Nobel Prize for if it's a scientific paper or whatever.
那么,委员会是如何决定该奖励谁的呢?他们根本不知道团队内部究竟发生了什么。
And and and how did the committee decide who's that, not knowing what really happened within the team?
是的。
Mhmm.
这在科学界也同样重要,因为正如我所说,如今领先的论文大多是团队合作的成果,但诺贝尔奖最多只能授予三人。
And this is something that is very important in science as well because, you know, as I said, the leading papers now, the highest in the papers are team papers, yet only maximum three people can get the Nobel Prize.
而且通常一篇论文只会授予其中一人。
And typically from one paper, only one person gets it.
那么这个人是谁?我们该如何决定?
So who's that person and how do we decide?
于是我们着手研究这个问题,最终开发出一种算法,能够查看像有175位作者的科学论文,并说:显然,第137位作者会获得诺贝尔奖。
So we went after that, and we ended up building an algorithm that can look, for example, at a scientific paper with, say, 175 authors and say, obviously, the one hundred and thirty seventh author will get the Nobel Prize.
这其实是一个真实案例。
And this is actually a real example.
这是一项有170多位作者的诺贝尔奖,获奖者正是第137位作者。
So this is a Nobel Prize which had 170 something authors, and the one hundred and thirty seventh was the one who got the Nobel Prize for it.
真正富有洞察力的,并不是我们能开发出这样的算法来决定人选,而是这个算法究竟是如何做出决定的?
And and what is really insightful, not the fact that we could do an algorithm to decide that, but how did the algorithm decide?
而该算法是通过简单地询问:这一部分属于谁的知识探索历程来做出判断的。
And the algorithm decided by simply asking whose line of intellectual journey was this part of?
也就是说,那篇论文前后发表的作者们做了什么?以及社区在引用这篇论文时,还同时引用了他们的哪些其他作品?
That what did the authors of that paper published before and after, and what did the community cited from their other work together with this one?
让我举一个具体的例子来说明这是如何运作的。
Let me give a very specific example how this works.
如果你和我正在做的这件事——比如现在我们正在进行的这种播客——假设这将成为有史以来最成功的播客,顺便说一句,我相信它一定会,那么问题来了:这份功劳该归谁?
If you and I do, which we're doing right now, or a kind of a podcast, and let's say that this will be the most successful podcast out there, and I'm sure it will be, by the way, then the question is, whose credit is that?
坦白说,这应该归你,因为这是你的节目,我只是个嘉宾,纯粹是个嘉宾,而你已经做过许多同类节目了。
And frankly, it's yours because this is your show, and I'm just guest I'm just a guest on the show, and you have done many other shows in the same genre.
人们会去看,然后说:哦,这正是我需要听的节目。
And people will look and say, oh, this is actually the show I need to listen.
而主持人的角色实际上是把这一切整合起来,营造出一个让我感到非常愉快的环境,我也从中受益良多。
And the host role was actually to bring it together and create that environment that is really fun for me, and I learned a lot.
然而,我之所以没有获得太多认可,是因为尽管我是这个节目的嘉宾,但我在这个领域没有任何其他活动。
However, if and the reason why I don't get much credit, that even though I was the guest on the show, I don't have any other activity in that space.
然而,如果你和我合写一篇网络科学论文,假设是你提出了想法,甚至承担了大部分工作,很抱歉,这篇论文还是会归到我名下。
However, if you and I write the network science paper, and let's say you are the one who brings the idea, and you even do the lion's share of the work, I'm sorry to say it's gonna be my paper.
这会是我的论文,因为你在这个领域没有任何过往记录,对吧。
And it's gonna be my paper because you have no track record in this area, Right.
因此,学术界不会将这项工作与其他任何人的研究一起引用。
And therefore, there's nothing that the community co cite together with that particular work.
所以,当团队的成果问世时,学术界通常会看这项工作属于谁的研究脉络,并将荣誉归于那个人——这又回到了我们开头谈到的观点:成功其实取决于学术界。
So when a product of a team comes out, what the community typically does is that it looks whose line of work this was part of and gives the credit to that person, which comes back to the very idea that we talked at the beginning, success is really about the community.
你的成功取决于学术界,而不是你自己。
Your success is about the community and not about you.
在这一点上,实际上,成功是根据学术界的认知来分配的,而不是基于团队内部的真实表现。
When it comes to this, actually, really, the the success is really assigned based on the perception of the community rather than what the real performance was within the team.
这带来了重要的后果,我们需要在进入团队环境之前就意识到这一点。
And that has important consequences that one actually needs to use before we enter actually a team setting.
所以,如果你被邀请加入一个团队去实现某个目标,你可能需要问自己:我参与这个团队的目的是什么?
So if you are invited to be part of a group to achieve something, you may ask yourself, what is my goal by participating in this team?
如果我觉得这个团队有着非常崇高的目标,而且我真的很想参与其中,我不在乎功劳归属,我只是希望帮助推动这件事成功,那你就去做好了。
If I feel this team has some really noble goals and I really wanna be part of it, I don't care about the credit, but I think I wanna make this help help to make this happen, then you say, go for it.
当然。
Absolutely.
你这么做是因为你有充分的理由。
You're doing it because you have a good reason for that.
然而,如果你加入团队只是为了获取你所做工作的功劳,那你就必须问自己:我会得到应有的认可吗?
However, if you're entering the team because you wanna get credit for what you did there, then you have to say, will I get credit?
我甚至可以在你加入团队之前就给你答案,因为你需要回顾自己过去做过什么,你的研究方向和学术成就是什么,以及这个团队的工作如果成功,是否能融入你一直以来的研究脉络?
And I can give you that answer even before you engage with the team because you would need to look at what did you do before, what's your line of work and intellectual achievement, and does that team's work, if it's successful, fit into that line of work that you've been doing?
如果是这样,那就去参与吧,因为社区实际上会因为团队的成果而认可你。
And if it is, go for it because the community will actually reward you for the team's credit.
但如果完全是无关的方向,比如你加入我们关于网络科学的论文,这对你作为播客主持人的职业生涯将毫无影响。
If, however, it's something totally tangential, like you join a paper of ours on network science, it will have no impact whatsoever on your career as a podcast host.
太棒了。
Amazing.
那我们用第五条法则来结束吧,你基本上说的是,持久的成功随时都可能发生。
Well, let's let's finish this up with, the fifth law, like, what you basically say with persistent success comes at any time.
你说过,在创造力的模式上,天才和我们其他人并没有不同。
And you said that when it comes to patterns of creativity, geniuses are no different than the rest of us.
我们也在职业生涯早期就达到顶峰。
We too peak out early in our careers.
一旦创造力的浪潮消退,我们就放松了警惕。
We let our guard down once that wave of creativity wanes.
天才并不特殊,我们大多遵循相同的基本模式。
Geniuses are not, we mostly conform to the same fundamental patterns.
当我思考这个观点——成功可能在任何年龄出现时,我想到的一个问题是:为什么那些儿童音乐神童最终没有成为职业音乐家呢?
And, you know, when I was thinking about that idea that it can come at any age, the question that came to my mind is, why do you have situations where, you know, child prodigies who are are musicians don't end up becoming professional musicians?
而另一方面,你有摩根·弗里曼,他直到50岁才成为摩根·弗里曼。
And then on the flip side of that, you have Morgan Freeman who doesn't become Morgan Freeman until he's 50 years old.
因为我记得曾和安德斯·艾利克森讨论过这个问题,他说,是的。
Because I remember talking to Anders Ericsson about this, and he said, yeah.
他说,通常早期的疯狂成功和神童并不能很好地预测他们成年后是否会成功。
He said often early, you know, crazy success and and child genius is not a good predictor of whether they'll be successful as adults.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
这些都是非常好的问题。
And these are all fabulous questions.
而我知道,我已经年过五十,我需要问自己:考虑到我的创造力可能已经衰退,我是否还应该继续从事科学工作?
And, you know, I just, you know, I'm just beyond 50, and I need to ask myself, should I be still doing science at all given the fact that maybe my creative time is over?
我们为什么这么说?
Why do we say that?
其实我们认为年轻等于创造力的原因是,这个领域有大量的数据支持。
Well, the reason we actually think that youth equals creativity is because there's lots of data in this space.
这些数据表明,天才研究者——那些研究天才职业生涯的社会学家和心理学家——已经很好地观察并记录了,许多重大突破确实与相对年轻的人密切相关。
And the data means that genius researchers, people who actually sociologists and psychologists who study the career of geniuses have observed and have documented very well that many major breakthrough are really associated with relatively young individuals.
例如,让我以我的专业——物理学为例。
And for example, let me take my profession, physics.
我作为一名物理学家学习过,爱因斯坦曾声称,如果你作为一名物理学家到了30岁还没有取得突破,那你永远也不会有了。
I studied as a physicist, and Einstein once claimed that if you, a physicist, haven't made your breakthrough by the age of 30, you will never do so.
他为什么这么说?
Why did he say that?
他说这话是因为他观察了自己周围环境中那些他钦佩的人,主要是那些帮助创立量子力学的人,比如海森堡、玻尔、狄拉克等等。
Well, he said so because he looked around in his environment at the people whom he admired, mostly the people who helped creating quantum mechanics from Heisenberg to Borg and Dirac and so on.
他看到这些人都是在二十多岁到三十岁出头的时候做出了重大突破。
And he saw people who made their major breakthroughs, all of them in their kind of mid to late twenties, maybe early thirties.
因此,确实有数据支持重大发现与年轻人相关的观点。
So the and indeed, so there is data to back up that major discoveries are associated with young people.
但我们实际上并没有只关注天才,而是研究了所有科学家。
But we we actually went after this question by looking not only at geniuses, but looking at all scientists.
因为你知道,我们虽然好奇,但我自己也好奇,那我呢?
Because, you know, we while we're curious, I was curious, what happens with me?
我的创造力已经结束了吗?
Is my creative time over?
根据爱因斯坦的说法,确实如此。
According to Einstein, it is.
我们实际上分析了自1900年以来所有科学家的职业生涯,询问每位科学家:他们在职业生涯的哪个时刻做出了最大的发现?
And we analyzed actually the career of all scientists since 1900, asking for each of them, when was the time, at what moment of their career, when they made their biggest discovery?
其中一些重大发现确实是诺贝尔奖级别的,但绝大多数只是科学界内普通的发现,只不过对那位特定科学家而言,那是他们最出色的成果。
And some of those bigger discoveries, a few of them were actually Nobel prize winning, but the vast, vast, vast, vast majority were just ordinary discoveries within the scientific world except that that was the best for that particular scientist.
令我们惊讶的是,我们发现爱因斯坦和天才文献中的观点在某种程度上是正确的:即使是普通科学家,也往往在职业生涯的早期——大约发表生涯开始后的十年到十五年内——做出他们的主要发现。
And and to our surprise, we saw that to some degree, Einstein and the genius literature is right, that even ordinary scientists tend to make their major discoveries in kind of relatively early within their career, kind of like ten, fifteen years after they start their publishing career.
所以这是对的。
So that's right.
所以我可能该把白大褂挂起来了,转而继续写书,对吧?
So I should probably hang up my coat as a and start to continue writing books, right?
这正是我们今天谈话的原因。
Which is why we're talking today.
但我们是数据驱动的人,于是我们说,让我们再仔细一点,看看参照数据是什么?
But then we're data people, so we said, let's look a little bit more carefully and say, what's the reference data?
简而言之,我们提出了一个问题:你的生产力如何随年龄变化?
And to make a long story short, we said, what's your productivity and function of age?
结果发现,当我们考察科学家在不同年龄阶段发表论文的数量时,所得到的曲线与他们发表最高影响力论文的可能性曲线完全一致。
And it turned out that when we looked at the productivity, how many papers you publish as a scientist in function of age, we saw exactly the same curve as we saw in the case of what's your likelihood of publishing your highest impact paper.
在其他项目中,当我们分析数据时,发现创造力与年龄完全无关。
In other programs, when we analyze the data, it turned out that there is no age dependence whatsoever when it comes to creativity.
相反,人们在职业生涯早期往往更加多产。
Rather, people tend to be much more productive early in their career.
在职业生涯的前十年到十五年里,我们发表了大部分论文。
First ten, fifteen years of our career, we write most of our papers in that age group.
到了人生后期,我们的产出速度会减慢。
And we slow down later in our life.
我们发表的论文越来越少,部分原因是健康问题、家庭事务、行政工作等。
We write fewer and fewer papers partly because of health, family reasons, administrative reasons, and so on.
但分析表明,科学生涯中的每一项成果,都有完全相同的概率成为该生涯中最具影响力的工作。
But the analysis showed that every single product of a scientific career has exactly the same probability of paying the highest impact work in that career.
这在各个领域都普遍成立,而不仅仅是科学领域,实际上并没有年龄依赖性。
And this is generally true, not only in science, in other areas, that there's really no age dependence.
相反,你所做的每一个作品——每一幅画、每一档你录制的节目——都有同等的机会成为你最具影响力的作品。
Rather, every product that you do, every painting you pay, every show you actually record has the same chance of becoming your highest impact, the product.
但年轻人往往更频繁地创作,而随着年龄增长,这种热情逐渐消退;我们在人生早期购买了更多的彩票,而晚年则停止购买。
But because young people tend to do more of these and with age, kind of the ferocity leaves, we're buying many more locker lottery tickets early on in our life, and we stop buying lottery tickets later in our life.
因此,看起来我们似乎不再有创造力,其实只是不再那么有生产力了。
And therefore, it appears as if we would not be creative, we're just simply not productive.
我们停止了尝试。
We stop trying.
这对我来说无疑是个巨大的宽慰,因为我年过五十后依然在管理实验室,生产力和二十多岁时一样高。
So so this was, of course, a huge relief for me because I still continue beyond 50 running the lab, and I'm just as productive as I was in my twenties.
数据显示,我仍然有可能做出一项超越我以往所有成就的发现。
And the data is indicating that I could still make a discovery that could overshadow anything that I ever did in my life.
是的。
Yeah.
哇。
Wow.
我的意思是,这是一次我会反复回味好几次的对话,因为你把这么多内容都浓缩进去了。
So what I mean, this has been, you know, one of those conversations I think I'm gonna have to go back to a dozen times just to to get everything you packed into it.
所以我还有最后两个问题想问你。
So I have I have two last questions for you.
首先,考虑到你现在的年龄,以及你还在职业生涯之外出版书籍,我猜你已经获得终身教职了,你是如何定义自己的成功的?
One, you know, at this point in your life, I'm assuming that you're tenured given your age and and, you know, given the fact you're publishing books outside of your your career, how do you define your own success
到现在这个阶段?
at this point?
所以,这当然会随着年龄变化。
So that changes with with age, obviously.
当我二十多岁、三十多岁的时候,我衡量成功的唯一标准就是发表一些具有重大影响的论文。
So So when when I I was was in in kind of in twenties and thirties, kind of my only measure of success was like, let's publish some papers that really have a major impact.
我在三十岁出头的时候做到了这一点。
In my early thirties, I managed to do that.
我实现了这一点。
I achieved that.
我们发表的关于偏好连接或Ritzkat开关现象的论文,实际上是当年所有科学领域中被引用次数排名前十的论文。
The paper that we published about preferential attachment or the Ritzkat switcher phenomena was actually the decade's top 10 most cited papers in all sciences.
所以这确实是一项重大发现,并催生了网络科学这一新领域。
So it was like it was really it was a major discovery and led to a new field of network science.
当然,我的数据显示,如果我继续下去,我仍然有可能超越这项工作。
Now, of course, my data indicates that if I carry on, I still have a probability to actually overshadow that work.
因此,我继续前行,但优先事项发生了变化。
And for that reason, I carry on, but priorities shift.
优先事项的变化在于,现在我同样热衷于帮助我的学生、博士后和实验室成员取得成功。
And priorities shift in the sense that now I'm just as excited about helping my students and postdocs and my lab members succeed.
所以,坦白说,二十年前我并没有太认真对待我的精神压力。
So for example, to be honest, I didn't take my mentally wrong too seriously kind of twenty years ago.
这只是我工作的一部分。
It just came with my job.
现在我更加关注如何帮助他人成功。
Now I pay much more attention to to let other people succeed.
我这样做部分是因为我的想法发生了变化,也因为我明白,在我人生的这个阶段,我的遗产不仅由我自己的成就决定,还取决于与我共事的人们将取得的成就。
I do so partly because my thinking has changed, and I also do so because I understand that at this point of my life, my legacy is determined not only by things that I did, but also what the people who worked with me will do.
对吧?
Right?
所以我有了更长远的视角。
So so I'm have a much longer perspective.
有了这种转变,衡量标准也随之改变。
And with that, the impact measures change.
对吧?
Right?
所以,我的价值衡量标准不再是再发表十篇论文。
So it's not anymore my impact measure to publish yet 10 more papers.
对吧?
Right?
我告诉我的学生们,我不需要论文。
I tell my students, I don't need papers.
在这个年纪,我只需要发现。
I only need discoveries at this age of my life.
但当我以前的学生和博士后出去发表被《自然》或《科学》封面刊登的论文时,我觉得非常兴奋,因为我觉得这也是我的成就。
But it's just exciting for me when my former students and postdocs go out and publish a paper that is featured on the cover of Nature or Science, because that, I feel, is also my achievement.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我才意识到,我忘了问你一件事。
So I did realize I forgot to ask you about a thing.
我们之前没聊到这个。
We didn't talk about it.
你是怎么计算你之前提到的q因子的?
How do you calculate the q factor that you mentioned earlier?
有没有办法实际计算它?
Is there a way to actually calculate it?
是的。
Yes.
那我们来谈谈什么是q因子吧。
So let's talk about what the q factor is.
对吧?
Right?
每个项目都有同等概率成为你一生中最成功的项目,这一事实实际上催生了一个关于创造力如何运作的数学模型。
So one of the things that the fact that each project has exactly the same probability of being the most successful of your life, that actually led to a mathematical model of how creativity works.
其原理是,你启动的每一个项目都像从一个随机数中抽取。
And the way this works really is that every project that you start is like a random number.
你从一个帽子里随机抽取一个数字,而你和我都能接触到同一个帽子。
You pick a random number from a hat, and you and I have access to the same hat.
所以我们从这个帽子里抽取一个随机数。
So we pick a random number from that.
这个数字可能是1,也可能是6,就像掷骰子一样。
And that could be one or six, throw a dice.
这完全是随机的。
It's totally random.
然后你把自己的知识和专长投入到这个想法中,这就是你的q值,它能将这个想法转化为产品。
And and then you bring your knowledge and expertise on that, and that's your q factor, and turn that idea into product.
如果你是科学家,它可能是一篇论文。
If you're a scientist, it could be a paper.
如果你是播客主持人,它可能是一档节目;如果你是作家,它可能是一本书,等等。
If you are a podcast host, it could be actually a show or it could be a book if you're a writer, whatever that is.
然后你观察这个产品的成功或影响,比如你获得了多少引用、有多少人购买了它,等等。
And then you look at the success or the impact of that product, like how many citations you got, how many people bought it, and so on.
我们发现,这种影响无非就是你从帽子中抽出的随机数乘以你的q值。
And what we find is that the impact of that is nothing but that random number that you pick from the hat times your q factor.
你的q值是一个衡量你将随机想法转化为有影响力产品的能力的数值。
That is your q factor is a number that characterizes your ability to take a random idea and to turn into an impactful product.
如果你的q值很低,即使你掷出了六点,也不会产生高影响力的产品,因为你不知道该如何利用它。
Now if you have a low q factor, even if you throw a six with a dice, it's not gonna be a high impact product because you don't you don't know what to do with that.
对吧?
Right?
所以实际上,你并没有把那个想法推进得太远。
So effectively, you're not accelerating that idea very far.
然而,如果你的q因子很高,即使你抽到一个很低的随机数,选了一个糟糕的想法,也未必能成功。
However, if you have a high q factor, you could still pick a low number, random number, better pick a bad idea and not to be very successful with it.
但当你偶然遇到那个伟大的想法时,高随机数乘以你的高q因子,就会带来突破。
But in the moment you hit across by chance through that great idea that the high random number times your high q factor becomes a breakthrough.
这正是我们看到的成功人士的情况。
And that's exactly what we see in the case of successful individuals.
并不是他们做的每一个项目都成功,而是我们发现,他们的职业生涯中充满了糟糕的项目,史蒂夫·乔布斯也是如此。
It's not that every project they do succeed, but rather what we see is that they have lots of crappy projects in their career, so does Steve Jobs.
但当他们遇到对的想法时,他们有能力将那一个想法转化为巨大的成功。
But when they hit across the right idea, they have an ability to turn that one into a major success.
我们能衡量q因子吗?
And can we measure a q factor?
是的。
Yes.
我们能够在科学家职业生涯的早期阶段就测量出他们的q因子。
We were able to measure the q factor for scientists from relatively early in their career.
我们从中学到的是,q因子——这实际上是这个故事中最令人震惊的部分——它在整个职业生涯中都不会改变,这完全出乎意料。
And what we learned actually from that is that the q factor, and that was really the most shocking aspect of the story, it doesn't change throughout our career, which was totally unexpected.
当我刚开始科研生涯时,最初的几篇论文就定义了我的q因子,而这个因子将伴随我直到退休。
That when I start my career as a scientist, the first few papers define my q factor, and that q factor will stay with me till retirement.
这让我感到非常意外,因为我以为自己正变得越来越优秀的科学家,越来越出色的沟通者。
And that was so unexpected because I thought that I'm becoming a better and better scientist, a better and better communicator.
所以我比二三十年前好太多了,但数据却显示我的q因子并没有真正改变。
So I'm so much better than I was twenty or thirty years ago, yet the data was indicating that my q factor has not really changed.
我仍然属于那个随机选择想法并将其转化为论文的过程的一部分。
And I'm still part of the same random process that picking these random ideas and turning them into paper.
因此,通过乘以我的q因子,产生了截然不同的影响。
So very different impact, by multiplying it with my, q factor.
我们也可以在其他领域测量q因子。
And we can measure q factor in other areas as well.
我们最近刚刚测量了q因子,甚至推出了一款应用,你可以在qfactor.com上体验,我们能够测量社交媒体上的q因子,也就是你与受众互动的效果,比如你的推文是否被转发。
We were we recently just measured the q factor, and we even have an app out there that you can play with qfactor.com that we're we're we're able to measure the q factor for social media, that is how well you are engaging with your audience that are your tweets retweeted or not.
这完全取决于你的q因子,即你将那些随机涌现的想法转化为社区真正欣赏、觉得值得转发或点赞的信息的能力。
That's really up to your q factor, your ability to turn your ideas, which are kind of coming randomly to you into messages that the community is really appreciating and that they find it worthwhile to retweet it or like it.
哇。
Wow.
我还有一个最后的问题,这是我们所有访谈结束时都会问的标志性问题。
Well, I have one last question, which is how we finish all of our interviews with the unmistakable creative.
你认为是什么让人或事物变得独一无二?
What do you think it is that makes somebody or something unmistakable?
你最后说的那句话。
The last message you say.
对吧?
Right?
所以我认为,首先我想强调的是,尽管这本书叫《公式》,但里面并没有一个单一的公式。
So I actually think that first of all, what I would like to kind of emphasize is that even though the book is called The Formula, there's not a single formula in it.
实际上,书中的五个部分各自都有其背后的公式,这是第一点。
Actually, each part, there are five parts, have their own formulas behind them, number one.
这一点之所以重要,是因为职业生涯有不同的阶段,不同类型的职业,适用的法则也不同。
And the reason why that is important is because really there are different stages of a career and different type of careers and different laws apply to you.
就像你飞行时,空气动力学对你至关重要。
In the same way that when you are flying, the the aerodynamics matters for you.
当你走路时,牛顿力学对你起作用,你不该把这两者混淆——同样地,职业生涯的不同阶段也适用不同的法则,这是第一点。
When you are walking, Newton's mechanics matters for you, and you shouldn't mix the two of them up the same way different laws apply in different parts of your career, number one.
但我认为,如果非要从这些内容中提炼出一条最重要的信息,那就是我认为对我而言最核心的一点,也希望我能清晰表达出来:你的表现关乎你自己,但你的成功关乎我们所有人。
But I think that if one message should be taken away from that and the one that I really think is the most important for me, and I hope I articulate it well, is that really your performance is about you, but your success is about us.
如果你真正内化了这一点,这将彻底改变你的格局。
And if you internalize that, that will be a game changer.
哇。
Wow.
我真不知道该怎么感谢你才好,感谢你抽出时间加入我们,与听众分享你的故事和见解。
Well, I can't thank you enough to for taking the time to join us and and share your story and your insights with listeners.
这真是太棒了。
This has been phenomenal.
我的天,你让我头都疼了,但这是种特别好的疼。
Like, I you know, you're making my head hurt in the best way possible.
我读过这本书,我真的被深深震撼了,简直不知道该怎么表达。
And I read the book, so I was kind of I I just I'm really blown away, and I can't think enough.
那么,人们在哪里可以了解更多关于你、你的工作、这本书以及你正在做的其他事情呢?
So where can people find out more about you, your work, the book, and everything else that you're up to?
我们确实有一个网站,但如果你简单地在谷歌上搜索我的名字——Barabasi,拼写是 b-a-r-a-b-a-s-i,或者访问 barabasi.com,又或者直接搜索《The Formula》,你就能找到大量资源,包括关于我们这本书的网站。希望你能从中进一步探索,看看哪些规律适用于你,以及你该如何运用它们。
Well, we do have a web page, but if you just simple go Google my name, Barabasi, b a r a b a s I, or look at barabasi.com or just Google the formula, you will find lots of resources including our website on the book, and hopefully you can build on that and, you know, see which of the laws apply to you and how you can apply it.
太精彩了。
Amazing.
对于所有正在收听的听众,我们就以这段话结束本期节目。
And for everybody listening, we'll wrap the show with that.
感谢您收听本期《不可忽视的创意》播客。
Thank you for listening to this episode of the unmistakable creative podcast.
在您收听的过程中,有没有哪些时刻让您感到着迷、鼓舞人心、富有启发性,甚至温暖人心?
While you're listening, were there any moments you found fascinating, inspiring, instructive, maybe even heartwarming?
您能否想到某个人,比如朋友或家人,会欣赏这个时刻?
Can you think of anyone, a friend or a family member who would appreciate this moment?
如果是这样,请花一秒时间,把本期节目分享给那个人,因为好的想法和信息本就该被分享。
If so, take a second and share today's episode with that one person because good ideas and messages are meant to be shared.
您是否曾对人工智能接管您的工作或削弱您的创造力感到一丝担忧?
Have you ever felt a twinge of worry about AI taking over your job or diluting your creativity?
那么,如果您能将这种恐惧转化为创意的动力呢?
Well, what if you could turn that fear into creative fuel?
我们刚刚发布了一本名为《AI世界中的四大成功关键》的精彩电子书,这不仅仅是一本指南。
We've just published an amazing new ebook called The Four Keys to Success in an AI World, and this is more than just a guide.
它深入探讨了人工智能无法触及的人类技能,这些技能对于在技术不断演进的环境中脱颖而出、蓬勃发展至关重要。
It's a deep exploration into the human skills that AI can't touch, the skills that are essential for standing out and thriving no matter how much technology evolves.
我们在这里讨论的是真正的差异化因素,比如创造力、情商、批判性思维,以及其他更多能力。
We're talking about real differentiators here, like creativity, emotional intelligence, critical thinking, and much more.
书中包含切实可行的见解和策略,帮助你培养这些技能,无论你是创意工作者、商业人士,还是单纯热爱个人成长的人。
Inside, you'll find actionable insights and strategies to develop these skills, whether you're a creative person, a business person, or just simply someone who loves personal development.
这不是一个关于科技接管的故事。
This isn't a story about tech taking over.
这是一个关于人类创造力与人工智能共同繁荣的故事。
It's a story of human creativity thriving alongside AI.
想象一下:人工智能是你的创意副驾驶,不仅仅是一个工具,更是一个能提升你独特人类能力的合作者。
Picture this: AI as your creative co pilot, not just as a tool, but a collaborator that enhances your unique human skills.
《四大关键》电子书将明确告诉你如何做到这一点,并以一种赋能你、而非掩盖你的新视角来看待人工智能。
The Four Keys ebook will show you exactly how to do that and view AI in a new way that empowers you instead of overshadows you.
今天就释放你的创意潜能。
Transform your creative potential today.
立即访问 unmistakablecreative.com/fourkeys。
Head over to unmistakablecreative.com/fourkeys.
使用数字四,k-e-y-s。
Use the number four, k e y s.
那就是unmistakablecreative.com/4keys,免费下载你的
That's unmistakablecreative.com/4keys, and download your free
副本。
copy.
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