英国博物馆是否应该向游客收费？此外，大都会艺术博物馆的拉斐尔与白教堂美术馆的塞娜·内古迪

我们稍后回来。

We'll be back after this.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

现在，在世界许多地方，这一集在复活节前的星期五发布，这是基督教纪念耶稣基督受难与死亡的圣日。

Now in many parts of the world, this episode is published on Good Friday, the Christian holy day commemorating the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.

这一天也恰逢拉斐尔的诞辰（1483年）和逝世（1520年）周年纪念，因为4月6日在那两年都恰好是复活节前的星期五。

It also marks the anniversary of both the birth in 1483 and death in 1520 of Raphael since April 6 coincidentally fell on Good Friday in both those years.

这进一步强化了拉斐尔作为近乎神圣天赋艺术家的形象——据他在罗马万神殿墓碑上的铭文记载，连大自然都害怕在他面前败北。

It only amplifies the view of Raphael as an artist of almost divine talent who, according to the epitaph at his grave in the Pantheon in Rome, prompted mother nature to fear defeat.

拉斐尔短暂一生中非凡的成就，是纽约大都会艺术博物馆首次在美国举办的全面回顾展的主题，展出了约200件作品，其中包括170件拉斐尔真迹，以及来自世界各地的珍贵借展绘画、素描和挂毯。

The extraordinary achievements of Raphael in his short life are the subject of the first major career survey ever staged in The US at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York with some 200 works, including a 170 by Raphael, among them extraordinary loans of paintings, drawings, and tapestries from across the world.

这些作品展现了他早年在乌尔比诺的生活、1504至1508年间在佛罗伦萨的非凡岁月，以及他在罗马度过的最后十二年——在此期间，他成为当时最负盛名的艺术家，为两位教皇完成了诸多宏伟项目，包括梵蒂冈宗座宫的‘签字厅’壁画，以及1508至1511年的《雅典学院》和1509至1511年的《圣礼之争》等巨幅壁画。

They reflect his early life in Urbino, his remarkable years in Florence between fifteen o four and fifteen o eight, and his final twelve years in Rome when he became the most celebrated artist of his time, completing great projects for two popes including in the Stanza Della Senga Tora in the Apostolic Palace in The Vatican, the great frescoes including the school of Athens from fifteen o eight to ten, and the Disputer from fifteen o nine to eleven.

本次宏大展览的策展人是卡门·班巴赫，我与她就此次展览进行了交谈。

The curator of this epic exhibition is Carmen Bambach, and I spoke to her about the show.

卡门，你八年前就开始了这个项目。

Carmen, you started this project eight years ago.

我想知道，如今这个项目实际呈现的样子，和你多年前最初对展览的设想相比如何？

I'm wondering how this project looks now it's in reality compared to your first thoughts about the exhibition all those years ago.

这完全取决于我们与借展机构的合作有多出色，这非常令人兴奋。

It all depends on how wonderful our lending institution partnerships are, and that's very exciting.

但就像任何大型展览一样，你会根据想要表达的论点，不断调整展品选择，而这又取决于可获得的借展作品。

But as with any large show, you continue refining a selection according, of course, to the argument that one wishes to present depending on the loans that are available.

因此，这是一个持续演变的展品选择和论点，事实上，是否按时间顺序、部分按时间顺序、按主题，或者哪些观点需要在学术文献中重新审视，这些决定都需要不断调整。

So it is a continuously evolving selection and argument, in fact, the decisions, you know, whether to do it chronologically or partly chronologically or thematic or how are points that might need more reframing in the literature.

因此，展览的重点也会发生很大变化。

So the emphases also evolve a great deal.

那么告诉我，你最终是如何处理的？

And so tell me, how have you ended up approaching it?

因为展览主要是按时间顺序安排的。

Because it's mostly chronological.

对吧？

Right?

但展览中某些主题穿插其中，特别是与肖像画相关的部分。

But with certain thematics sort of puncturing the show, particularly in relation to portraiture, for instance.

是的。

Yes.

这实际上再次取决于我把哪些重点放在哪里，因为我感觉这些方面在文献中没有被充分探讨。

It all really, again, depended on where to put certain emphases that I felt had not been covered as deeply in the literature.

我非常感兴趣的是，将肖像画作为一个主题，深入探讨达·芬奇与拉斐尔之间的关系，以及拉斐尔的回应。

I was really interested in discussing the portraits as a theme to attempt to dive into the relationship of Leonardo and Raphael, Raphael's response.

在很多方面，这种回应并不是关于吸收和模仿。

And in many ways, it's not a response that is about absorbing and imitating.

而是更多地关于采纳，然后将其转化为自己的风格。

It is so much about appropriating and then making it his own.

我认为，从文献的角度来看，有必要重新审视拉斐尔与达·芬奇之间的关系，以及拉斐尔对达·芬奇《波茨亚·普伦托》的回应，比如拉斐尔的风格如何因接触达·芬奇的作品而发生彻底变化。

I felt that in many cases, actually, I felt that it was necessary from the point of view of the literature to try to reframe this relationship between Raphael and his response to Leonardo, whether it was in the way that Raphael's style completely changes as an exposure to Leonardo's Pozzare Pronto.

我认为，他在纸上释放创意和灵感的方式发生了非常根本性的转变，这与他早年在翁布里亚和德马尔凯地区工作、深受佩鲁吉诺影响时的做法截然不同。佩鲁吉诺更像是一位——如果我可以这么说的话——工匠型的素描家和画家。

And really, there is a very radical break, I think, in the way in which he allows his inventive, creative juices flow on the paper, which was very different from what he had been doing when he was working more in Umbria and in De Marcheo, and very tied to Perugino, who was more of a, if I may allow to say, artisanal kind of draftsman and painter.

因此，情感表达、创作的迅捷性，这些达·芬奇在理论上重视的问题，都引起了我极大的兴趣。

So, the idea that emotion, rapidity of execution, all those issues that Leonardo cared about theoretically, these were of great interest.

关于肖像画，我认为，他对达·芬奇的回应在某种程度上重新调整了时间线。

With respect to the portraits, I felt that, again, the response to Leonardo does reframe a bit the chronology.

我们现在确切知道，达·芬奇于1503年10月开始绘制《蒙娜丽莎》。

We know for a fact now that Leonardo began painting the Bonanisa in October 1503.

因此，我们可以将对达·芬奇肖像风格的回应时间，往前推至比文献中以往假设的更早一些。

So, we can probably move the responses to Leonardo's manner of portrayal to a bit earlier than has been assumed in the literature.

这是一点。

That would be one point.

我也非常关注女性肖像的研究。

I was also very interested in giving greater attention to the portraits of women.

我还特别希望深入探讨一些关于行为举止的论著。

I was very interested in also looking at some of the treatises of comportment.

因此，显然巴尔达萨雷·卡斯蒂廖内的《廷臣论》提供了一个绝佳的框架，而卡特琳娜·斯福尔扎关于化妆品和《实验集》中各种神奇配方的论著也同样如此。

So obviously, the Book of the Courtier by Baldassaro Castiglione does provide a wonderful framework, but as does also Caterina Sforza's treatise on cosmetics and all sorts of magical recipes in the L'Asperimenti.

因此，我非常感兴趣的是，将某些主题更紧密地与我们其实相当熟悉但尚未有针对性地应用于这些肖像的文献证据或文学来源联系起来。

So I was really interested in sort of tying certain subjects more closely to documentary evidence or literary sources that we know actually quite well, but that we have not really applied more pointedly to some of these portraits.

例如，在卡斯蒂廖内的案例中，书中明确讨论了时尚，以及关于秃头、染发和染须的幽默段落——这些也适用于男性。

For example, in the case of Castiglione, clearly, the discussion about fashion and also the jokes in the book of the courtier about being bald, baldness, and coloring one's hair and beard, also for men.

当然，这与卡塔琳娜·斯福尔扎在《阿耶斯·佩里门蒂》中记载的众多配方形成了绝佳的呼应。

Of course, this was a great sort of touch moment with Catalina Sforza's many recipes in the Ayes Perimenti.

所以，这一点是存在的。

So there is that.

此外，在讨论技法时，我非常感兴趣的是引入红外反射成像技术的证据，它能让我们清晰地看到设计草图与最终颜料层之间的关系，以及与最初构思的关联。

And, of course, in terms of the discussion of techniques, I was very interested in bringing in the evidence from infrared reflectography, which allows us to really see designs and the final paint layer in relationship to the more initial thoughts.

我认为，所有经过红外反射成像技术检验的肖像，都对此有所贡献。

And I think every one of the portraits that has been examined with infrared reflectography has something to contribute about that.

我特别希望深入探讨的一点是，正如你们所知，本次展览中展出了大约140幅拉斐尔的素描。

Among the things that I was really, really interested in developing is that, as you know, we have about 140 drawings by Raphael in the exhibition.

因此，这为我们提供了一个绝佳的机会，去深入审视——正如我之前提到的——不仅是他抵达佛罗伦萨时那些关键的转折时刻，还包括我们对一系列完整创作过程的观察。

So, this provided an opportunity to really look at, I had mentioned, not only those moments of great transition as he arrives in Florence, but also for us to look at entire sequences.

人们常常在展览中把拉斐尔的素描当作填充墙面的点缀。

There is often a tendency to treat the drawings by Raphael in an exhibition as if it's a bit of wall filler.

这绝对不是我的做法。

That definitely is not my approach.

而且我认为，即使是一般公众也会说，拉斐尔或许因为太过完美而失去了青睐。

And I believe that when one hears even from the general public, oh, Raphael perhaps fell out of favor because he was too perfect.

因为从技术上讲，他的构图完全基于均衡的几何、完美的色彩和谐等等。

Because technically speaking, his compositions are all about balanced geometry, perfect harmony of color, etcetera.

我在此要反驳的是，这种看法源于我们仅仅从绘画作品出发，并且是以一种过于概括的方式去看待的。

One of the things that I contest in this is that that is the product of having really only looked at the paintings and in a somewhat summary manner.

因为一旦我们开始审视他的初稿，再去看他的写生或构图草图——他探索并发展到一定程度后，却发现并不奏效，于是全部丢弃，重新开始——情况就完全不同了。

Because as soon as we look at the, say, the primipensieri and then to the life drawings or the composition drafts that he explores and then develops to a certain point of refinement, but then he sees that it doesn't work, so he throws all that away and begins anew.

他的创作方法中蕴含着严谨与自律，如果我们只关注他的油画作品，就很容易忽视这一点。

There is a studiousness, a discipline in his method that I think we really miss out on if we just treat his paintings.

因此，我认为我们可以重新回到这些画作，说这些确实是来之不易的胜利。

And I think that, therefore, we can come back to the paintings and say, Yeah, those were really hard won victories.

它们是非凡的自律、专注与实验的成果。

They are the product of extraordinary discipline and application and experimentation.

我们通常不会把拉斐尔看作一个善于实验的人。

We don't often think of Raphael as somebody who experiments.

但我想，如果我们仔细观察这些画稿的序列，就会以非常有趣的方式认识到这一点。

But I think, again, if we look at the sequences of drawings, we say this in very interesting ways.

当然，他还创作了多种类型的素描。

Then, of course, there is a variety of drawing types that he produces.

当我们观看他的草图碎片时，会发现尤其是在他设计《圣礼之争》等作品时，他对上帝父的形象的草图呈现出一种激烈、近乎野性的特质。

When we're looking at his cartoon fragments, we see that he especially by the time that he's designing, say, the Disputa, there is a kind of aggressive, almost feral quality to his cartoon fragments, say, of God the Father.

因为他明白，无论是素描还是绘画，要传达信息，就必须能在远距离上被感知。

It's because he has understood that for a drawing to communicate and a painting to communicate, it has to communicate at a large distance.

因此，细致入微的素描固然有其作用，但若不面对那面空白的墙，这种做法实际上是非常局限的。

And therefore, the whole idea of doing detailed drawings is, yes, it serves a certain purpose, but it's really rather limiting until one faces the blank wall, so to speak.

对。

Right.

另一个非常重要的观点，同样从技术角度出发，是我们现在通过技术分析圣室的湿壁画，特别是塞纳图拉室，得知尽管我们知道他几乎同时构思了《辩论》和《雅典学院》，但他始终非常谨慎地考虑建筑结构，显然他在绘制《辩论》之前就已经开始设计并绘制《雅典学院》。

The other points that have been very important, and again, thinking very much from the point of view of technique, is we know now from the technical examination of the frescoes, particularly in the Stanza Della Senatura, that although we know that he thought of essentially Disputa and the School of Athens more or less contemporaneously, he always tends to consider architecture very carefully, that he clearly started painting and started designing the school of Athens before the Disputa.

我认为，梵蒂冈负责清洗湿壁画的同事们——尤其是负责清洗《雅典学院》的保罗·维奥利尼——注意到干燥方面的问题，并指出拉斐尔在灰泥配方上采用了若干前所未有的手法。

And I think that our colleagues in the Vatican who did all the cleaning of the frescoes, Paolo Violini, who did the cleaning of the School of Athens, noting, especially the drying problems, noting that there were several aspects about the composition of the intonaco that were very new to Raphael.

因此，从这个角度来看，《雅典学院》湿壁画似乎证实了这一点。

So, the School of Athens frescoes seem to, from that point of view, prove that.

如果我们观察《雅典学院》的草图，也会注意到他倾向于在经过处理的纸上使用金属尖笔，这是一种非常精细的绘画方式。

If we look at the drawings for the School of Athens, we also notice that he tends to use a metal point on prepared paper, which is a very delicate manner of drawing.

总体来看，所有这些使用金属尖笔和处理纸张的草图，都让人感受到他对细节仍有一种珍贵的执着。

And essentially, one would have to say that looking as a group at all these drawings in metal point and prepared paper, that one has a sense that there is still a kind of a precious attachment to detail.

它们非常写实，但本质上只能近距离仔细研究。

They are very naturalistic, but essentially they can only be studied quite close-up.

当我们转向《辩论》的草图时，会发现数量极其庞大，如果再稍微从图像学角度思考，我会觉得教皇尤利乌斯二世不可能在没有对较不复杂、压力较小的主题先行预演的情况下，就允许直接绘制神学主题的湿壁画。

And when we come to the drawings for the Disputa, for which there is an enormous number of them, and if we think a little bit also iconographically, it would be seem to me strange for Pope Julius to have permitted to do the fresco about theology first without any kind of pretrial at a perhaps less taxing doctrinally, more taxing subject.

因此，我认为我提出的关于重新梳理这些壁画和草图时间顺序的建议是合理的。

So I think in many ways, therefore, the proposal that I've made about reframing the chronology of those frescoes and the drawings does make sense.

这真的很迷人，不是吗？

It's fascinating that, isn't it?

回到你之前提到的一个观点，我想进一步探讨一下他始终充满好奇心这一点。

And just going back to a point that you made earlier on, I just wanted to explore this idea that he's perpetually curious.

正如你所说，关于拉斐尔完美的形象几乎已经形成了一种神话。

As you say, there is almost a a kind of myth that's developed about Raphael, about his perfection.

但这种观点——他不断探索、不断追寻，而不仅仅是精雕细琢——其实是比较新颖的。

But this idea that he continually pushes and is always searching as much as he is refining is kind of new.

是的。

Yes.

正如你所说，这种额外的维度确实动摇了人们对拉斐尔的传统认知，而这在某种程度上解释了为什么列奥纳多和米开朗基罗如今被公众视为比拉斐尔更受喜爱。

As you say, it kind of shakes up this idea of Raphael, which is in a way one of the reasons that's often provided for the fact that Leonardo and Michelangelo are currently seen as sort of somehow more publicly loved than Raphael.

通过增添这种来之不易的、充满张力的拉斐尔形象，你实际上将他重新带回了那种在他那个时代及之后激励了无数人的活力之中。

That in a way, by adding this kind of extra layer, this hard won feeling about Raphael, you're returning him to the kind of the dynamism that actually inspired so many people in his time and immediately afterwards.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Absolutely.

这非常有趣，因为如果我们仔细观察这些素描，就会发现拉斐尔并不害怕创作出可能不够美观的素描。

And it's very interesting because if we continue to look at the drawings in a very attentive way, we will see that Raphael is not afraid to produce a perhaps not the most attractive drawing.

对他来说，一切都关乎功能。

That for him, it's all about function.

我认为在很多方面，我们一直从收藏家的视角来看待拉斐尔。

And I do think that in many ways, we've tended to look at Raphael from the point of view of a collector's ethic.

也就是说，我们想要最美丽的画作、最美丽的素描，当然还有无可争议的真迹。

That is we want the most beautiful painting, the most beautiful drawing, and also of course of unquestioned authorship.

因为我非常重视功能，所以我深信，我们不仅能通过他简化手部、脚部等部位的方式，或者他在铅笔上施加的压力来确认某件作品确实出自他手。

Because I'm so keen on function, I feel very much that we can also not only ascertain that something is indeed by his hand just because of the way that he will abbreviate, I don't know, hands, feet, etcetera, or the amount of pressure he will put on the chalk stick in drawing.

而且我们还能看到，他始终在探索，这种探索是为了服务他的创作目的，而非我们作为收藏家或观者的审美需求。

But that we see him at all times searching in a way that will serve his purposes, not our purposes as the collectors or the viewers of his work.

我认为拉斐尔在二十世纪乃至二十一世纪不受欢迎的原因之一，正是人们觉得他不够富有表现力。

And I do think that one of the reasons that Raphael felt so out of favor, perhaps in the twentieth century, perhaps in twenty first century, has been because of this idea that he's not really expressive enough.

我邀请任何人去仔细看看他的一些全尺寸草图、构图草稿或速写。

Well, I invite anybody to look at some of his full scale drawings or the composition drafts or his sketches.

当我们看到他，比如说，摆布圣母与圣子的姿态时，会感受到一种野性的能量。

And we will see a feral kind of energy when he is, I don't know, posing a Madonna and child.

但这些都源自于他使用人体模型进行的严谨研究，在那里他完全释放自我，留下大量重叠的线条。

But all studied from mannequins where he just lets himself go and we see lots of reinforcement lines.

这可能是最鲜活、最即兴的绘画行为，看起来几乎像抽象画。

It is probably the most fresh and spontaneous act of drawing, and they look almost abstract.

因此，以今天的眼光，我认为我们完全有能力重新审视拉斐尔，给予他应有的空间，并停止对艺术家进行等级评判。

So that's the way in which today I think we are very well equipped to look at Raphael again and really concede him this space and stop ranking artists.

我讨厌这种做法。

I hate that.

对。

Right.

当然。

Absolutely.

我们真的得停止这样做。

We've gotta stop doing that.

但这真的很有趣，不是吗？

But it's really fascinating, isn't it?

这个观点，我非常喜欢，你正在探索影响这一概念，深入研究他与其他艺术家之间的互动方式。

This idea, and I love this, that you're exploring that idea of influence, really going into how he worked in relation to other artists.

而且你从最开始就入手，比如重新确立他父亲在他教育中的重要性。

And you start right at the beginning, right, in terms of reestablishing the importance of his father in his education, for instance.

因此，从这个阶段开始，你就真正关注他是如何与他人互动的，他从别人那里汲取了什么，又是如何加以转化的，等等。

So even from that stage, you're really looking at how he relates to other artists, what he takes from them, how he transforms it, and so on.

我知道自己做了一个有些冒险的尝试，不确定是否会有回报。

I did know that I was taking a bit of a leap that I wasn't sure was going to pay off.

但当我更深入地研究乔瓦尼·桑蒂，以及1495到1505年左右的佩鲁吉诺——这正是拉斐尔最有可能在画室与他重叠的时期——我发现了一些产生共鸣的地方。

But the more I explored Giovanni Santi, explored also Perugino at this moment, say, in 1495 to 1505, which would have been the years where Raphael probably would have most coincided in his workshop, that there were certain things that resonated.

合作工作的理念，成为工坊体系一员的理念。

The idea of working in collaboration, The idea of being part of a workshop system.

我认为，关于乔瓦尼·桑蒂，我们越了解，就越能证实这一点。

Both Giovanni Santi, I think the more we learn about him that is being born out.

毫无疑问，佩鲁吉诺是一位在工坊体系中极为成功的商人。

Certainly Perugino was an extraordinarily successful businessman working in a workshop system.

因此，从这个意义上说，拉斐尔有着非常优秀的榜样。

So, Raphael in that sense had very good role models.

我认为，拉斐尔来自乌尔比诺，那里有着数学和建筑的文化背景，我们不必等到拉斐尔在罗马时期才将他视为建筑师来讨论。

I do think that, again, the fact that Raphael comes from Urbino, a culture of mathematics perspective, architecture, that we don't need to wait for Raphael, say, in the Roman period to discuss him as architect.

这些元素从一开始就已存在。

This is all right there, part of his beginnings.

有趣的是，看看一些早期的草图，比如为祭坛画《天使报喜》面板所作的草图。

And it's interesting to look at some of the early drawings, say, the cartoon for the Annunciation predella for the audio altarpiece.

在那里，我们看到了大量的结构设计。

There we see an enormous amount of construction.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

这个殖民地在某些方面确实呼应了乌尔比诺的卡勒宫的中庭。

That colony does really, in some ways, echo the cortile do notre of the Palazzo Do Calle in Urbino.

是的。

So Yes.

以及几何的运用，包括圆规标记、轴线、垂直轴线、水平轴线、圆规交点。

And the use of geometry, using of compass marks, axial lines, vertical axial lines, horizontal axial lines, compass intersections.

他会在地平线上上下移动。

And he moves up the and down the horizon lines.

我们可以在这些草图中看到这一点。

We can see this in the drawings.

有趣的是，我认为直到大约1507年，他在绘画技法上往往比绘画技法更超前。

And interestingly, I would say that until about 1507, more or less, that he often tends to be ahead in his drawing technique than in the painting technique.

如果我们看看一些早期的画作，再比如柏林库普费斯蒂夫博物馆中玛德琳的大型完整草图，就能看到纸上对人物形象的建筑式构建。

If we look at some of the early paintings and look at, say, again, a very developed full scale cartoon, say, as for the Magdalene in the Berlin Kupfestive Cabinet, we see an architect of the human figure on that paper.

这一切都是经过规划和构建的。

It's all plotted and constructed.

这幅画在很多方面看起来都非常飘渺，至少那个几乎漂浮着的人物形象是这样。

The painting looks very, very elusive in many ways, at least the figure that almost floats

在

in

空间中。

space.

所以我觉得这很重要。

So it is important, I feel.

而且，我觉得自己在尝试沿着这一发展脉络思考时，又迈出了另一大步。

And again, I felt that perhaps I was taking another leap by trying to think along this development.

我对艺术家的生平，尤其是艺术家的成长过程非常感兴趣。

I'm very interested in the biography of artists and especially the becoming of an artist.

是的。

Yes.

我们现在都知道，看拉斐尔的作品时，早期的圣母像与晚期罗马时期的圣母像看起来截然不同。

Now we all know in looking at Raphael that say an early Madonna by Raphael looks very different from a late Roman period Madonna by Raphael.

我认为这不仅仅是风格或形象词汇上的区别。

And I think that that is not merely about a distinction of style or a figural vocabulary.

不，这比那更深一层。

No, it's deeper than that.

这完全关乎我们所讨论的这种实验阶段。

It's all about how this phase of experimentation that we're talking about.

我觉得另一件非常有趣的事是，我们可能需要更多地关注他在罗马时期与工作室的合作，将其视为他艺术个性的另一个方面。

The other thing that I think is really interesting is we probably need to look more and more at his workshop collaborations, say, in the Roman period as just another facet of his artistic personality.

他如此投入于创作过程，尤其当他繁忙且同时处理多项任务时，他的工作室结构井然有序，由朱利奥·罗马诺和乔瓦尼·弗朗切斯科·佩蒂担任工头，再加上一群年轻有才华的助手，这使他能够高效产出，同时最大限度地释放自己的创造力。

He is so invested in the process of invention that at times, and especially when he is so busy and multitasking, that the workshop had a very orderly structured workshop as his was with Giulio Romano and Giovanni Francesco Petti as a foreman, say, of the workshop and then the whole other team of younger, talented assistants, that there is a certain way in which he's able to produce and free himself to invent as much as possible.

没错。

Right.

但至关重要的是，赞助人喜爱拉斐尔的部分原因，正是因为他总能如期交付作品。

But it's crucial, isn't it, that that part of the reason that the patrons love Raphael is because he delivers.

他源源不断地交付作品。

He endlessly delivers.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Absolutely.

但他同时也进行创新，这正是拉斐尔的奇妙之处——他并不是简单地一遍又一遍地重复相同的东西。

But he also invents, and that's the kind of miracle of Raphael in the sense that he's not just churning out the same thing over and over and again.

他不断创作出非凡的作品，每一件都有新的特色，因为他拥有自由创新的空间，身边还有一支杰出的团队。

He's creating extraordinary works all with a new aspect to them because he's free to invent, but has this brilliant team around him.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

而且，我的意思是，当然，我们不可能把这些作品搬到展览中，因为它们是壁画。

And, I mean, I of course, not that one can transport this work to an exhibition since they are frescoes.

但当你观看梵蒂冈长廊，看着那52个圣经场景时，会发现每一个场景都是一个引人入胜的叙事，让人感受到其中非凡的创造力和想象力的丰富性。

But to look at the Vatican loge and look at those, I don't know, 52 biblical scenes and see the way in which each one of those scenes is an arresting narrative that there, one senses, the powers of invention and just prolixity of imagination.

当然，有些画作在执行上存在一些问题，诸如此类。

And yes, some of them are painted, you know, with their problems execution and all this.

但如果我们退后一步，审视这些图像的创意，这就是为什么这些场景成为诠释宗教文本或教理问答时的首选——你总会选拉斐尔。

But if we just like step back and look at the invention of that imagery, this is why those scenes then become how would one say, if you want to illustrate anything in a religious text or catechism, you pick always Raphael.

因为他已经掌握了如何在情节的高潮时刻讲述故事。

Because he has figured out how to tell the story at the climactic point.

他从未偏离故事主线。

He never loses sight of the plot line.

我特别喜欢观察他的构图过程，看他不断添加人物，然后意识到人物太多了。

One of the things I love about, again, looking at his compositional process is to see him adding and adding and adding figures, and then realizes that there are too many of them.

于是他开始删减。

And he starts omitting.

某种程度上，他回归了一种更极致的简约。

And in a way, he comes back to a greater minimalism.

这也正是为什么这些构图看起来如此完美。

And this is also why the compositions look perfect.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

这太迷人了。

That's fascinating.

我还被目录中你谈到的那些佛罗伦萨时期的圣母像深深打动了，这些非凡的圣母像真正奠定了他的名声，并为他走向罗马铺平了道路。

I was also really, really struck by the passage in the catalog where you talk about the Madonnas, those extraordinary Madonnas of the Florentine period, which really made his name and sort of set him on the path to Rome.

对吧？

Right?

但你把它们放在当时的历史背景下来看，也就是说，那时有太多婴儿夭折，你的解读方式我认为非常不同。

But you set them in the context of the conditions of that time, meaning that so many children were dying in infancy, and you frame it very differently, I think.

跟我们讲讲这个吧。

Tell us about that.

为什么这样做很重要？

Why was it important to do that?

也许这有一个有点平凡的解释。

Maybe there is a bit of a banal explanation.

我渐渐听腻了人们说：‘这么多圣母像，你打算怎么处理这么多圣母像？太多了！’

I grew a little tired of hearing from people, oh, what are you gonna do with all those Madonnas after Madonnas after Madonnas or too many Madonnas?

我深感我们可能从未真正以圣母像原本应有的深刻意义去审视过它们。

And I felt very much we haven't really looked at the Madonnas probably with the profundity of meaning that they were intended.

它们不仅仅是用来放在家里的宗教图像。

They're not just devotional imagery to put in the house.

但在很多方面，它们是一种理想化的追求。

But in many ways they are an aspirational ideal.

我觉得，如果我们思考当时育龄妇女和婴儿的高死亡率。

And I felt that if we think about what was going on with the mortality of women of childbearing age and infant mortality.

如果我们记得拉斐尔自己的故事——他的母亲玛吉亚·查拉于1491年去世，而当时拉斐尔才八岁。

And if we remember Raphael's own story, the mother Magia Charla, who died in 1491, and that Raphael is only eight years old.

现在，我不会过度将他的生平投射到这些作品中，但这只是生活的一个方面。

Now, I'm not going to be projecting overly into his biography, but this is just an aspect of life.

因此，在展览中，我非常坚持展示这本名为《Libro delle Cherry》的账簿，它本质上是一本关于蜂蜡销售及收入的账本，用于制作蜡烛。

So, in the exhibition, I felt very committed to the idea of having this account book, the Libro delle Cherry, that is an account book basically of the sales and revenues from the sale of beeswax, so for candles.

这本账簿向我们揭示了大量关于丧葬费用的信息。

So, it's a book that tells us a great deal about funeral expenses.

而它恰好包含了大量与拉斐尔家族相关的内容，比如他的弟弟、妹妹、母亲，还有父亲、祖母等人的去世记录。

And it happens to contain a great deal relating to Raphael's family, the baby brother, the baby sister, the mother, also the death of the father, the grandmother, etcetera, etcetera.

当我偶然发现这本账簿，看到玛吉亚·查拉丧葬费用所在的那一页，翻过一页后又看到他妹妹的丧葬费用时，我觉得非常有意思——显然，这位母亲极有可能，几乎可以肯定，是死于分娩并发症。

And it was an interesting thing for me to just find this as an object, look at the page where Medjia Charla's funeral expenses appear, and turn the page and look at what the baby sister, again funeral expenses, clearly this was therefore a case where the mother probably, almost certainly, I would say, died of childbirth complications.

所以，这就是其中的一部分。

So, there is that.

我深深感到，在很多方面，拉斐尔作品的核心正是对比与理想化的追求。

And I felt very much that, in many ways, what much of Raphael is all about is contrast, aspirational ideals.

如果生活对女性和婴儿而言是残酷的，那么他就用画笔描绘出如此美丽的圣母像。

So, if life is ugly for women and infants, he's going to paint these beautiful Madonnas.

如果教堂正在崩塌，宗教改革正在进行，而他的时代却充斥着完全的平庸。

If the church is crumbling and there is reformation and there is complete, I don't know, banality happening during his time.

他将创作出伟大的系列作品，即为西斯廷教堂制作的教宗祭坛挂毯。

He is going to produce the great series that is all about the Maestas Papalesi, Tapestries for the Sistine Chapel.

因此，在许多方面，拉斐尔为我们构建了一个宇宙，这在某种程度上也与当时文学理想相去不远。

And therefore, in many ways, Raphael is creating a universe for us, which in some ways is also not so far apart from literary ideals of the time.

如果我们仅仅想想卡斯蒂廖内的《廷臣论》，就会记得，尽管这些理想化的对话发生在乌尔比诺宫廷，而那个伟大的黄金时代已然逝去，但别忘了乌尔比诺当时正被切萨雷·博吉亚洗劫，随后又将再次被洛伦佐二世·美第奇入侵。

If we just think about Castiglione for a minute, about The Book of the Courtier, and remember that despite the fact that these are idyllic conversations happening at the court of Urbino, at a time when the great golden age had passed, But if we remember that Urbino was being sacked, it was being invaded by Cesare Borgia, then it would be invaded again by Lorenzo II Medici.

所以，这再次关乎创造这些完美理想化的世界，而拉斐尔正是这一文化的重要组成部分。

So it is, again, about creating these perfectly idealized worlds, and Raphael is very much part of that culture.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

这其中蕴含着一种无限的美。

There's something infinitely beautiful about that.

至少是的。

At least Yeah.

他们真的，我觉得

They're really I feel

个人上被深深打动了。

personally so moved by that.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得就连看目录时，我也有这种感受。

I mean, I think that's the thing is that just even looking at the catalog, I feel this too.

往往是因为技法太过炫目，色彩如此美丽甚至近乎装饰性，因为他作为艺术家如此卓越，我们反而会忽略其中的情感。

Is that so often because the technique can be so dazzling, because the colors are so utterly beautiful and almost decorative, because he is so accomplished as an artist, we can lose the emotion.

是的。

Yes.

但你说得对。

But you're you're right.

比如，一页一页地翻看，也许这正是以这种诗意的方式结束的好方法。

Just going from page to page, for instance, and maybe this is a good way to end with the poetry of the thing.

看到那幅描绘圣家族和婴儿施洗者约翰的宏伟画作时，我深受触动，那是他晚期的作品，也在你的展览中。

I was really, really deeply moved seeing that great painting of the holy family with the infant John the Baptist, the very late painting, which is in your show.

我认为，我们需要重新认识拉斐尔的一个方面，那就是他是一位善于表现情感与感受的伟大画家。

And I think that there's something that, again, we need to reconnect with about Raphael, which he is a great painter of emotion, of feeling.

是的。

Yes.

这正是我在目录中真正感受到的。

That's what really struck me in the catalog.

我还在看展览的布置照片。

And I am just looking at the installation shots too.

这确实准确地反映了展览的特质。

It seems absolutely true of the show.

这是一场充满深厚情感的展览，显然你正是希望营造出这种氛围。

It's it's a show of immense feeling, and it seems that you've really wanted to create that.

我非常高兴你能有这种感受。

I'm so thrilled that you feel that way.

正如我所说，我常常会做出很多跳跃式的联想。

As I say, I tended to take many leaps.

然而，我想要从一种刻板印象中拯救拉斐尔，那就是他可能只是一个绘制甜腻、过度感伤图像的画家。

And one thing, however, that I wanted to rescue Raphael from is the feeling that he might be a painter of saccharin kind of imagery, overly sweet imagery.

这种看法完全误解了他艺术的真谛。

And that is totally to miss the point of his art.

好了，卡门，非常感谢你加入我们的对话。

Well, Carmen, thank you so much for joining us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

《拉斐尔：崇高的诗意》正在纽约大都会艺术博物馆展出，将持续到6月28日。

Raphael, Sublime Poetry is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York until the June 28.

现在，让我们进入本周的作品。

And now it's time for the work of the week.

本周，伦敦白教堂美术馆举办了一场档案展览，探索雕塑家兼行为艺术家塞娜·内古迪的作品。

The Whitechapel Gallery in London this week opened an archival exhibition exploring the work of the sculptor and performance artist Senga Nengudi.

内古迪尤其以她的系列作品《RSVP》而闻名，该系列作品使用尼龙丝袜和沙子制作雕塑，并由表演者激活。

Nengudi is particularly well known for her series of works called RSVP involving a sculpture made from nylon pantyhose and sand, which is activated by a performer.

展览中展出了一组名为《1977年行为作品》的三张照片，展示了内古迪的长期合作者莫林·哈辛格在洛杉矶珍珠海伍德画廊进行的一次激活活动，当时内古迪正定居于此。

In the exhibition is a group of three photographs called Performance Piece from 1977 in which we see Nengudi's long term collaborator, Maurin Hassinger, engaged in one such activation at the Pearl Sea Wood Gallery in Los Angeles where Nengudi was based at the time.

白教堂展览的策展人是汉娜·伍兹，我与她探讨了这些照片以及更广泛的RSVP项目。

The curator of the Whitechapel exhibition is Hannah Woods, and I spoke to her about the photographs and the wider RSVP project.

汉娜，塞娜·内古迪从1977年开始创作她的尼龙丝袜作品，最初是为JAM画廊——琳达·古德·布莱恩特在曼哈顿创办的传奇画廊——制作的。

Hannah Senga Nengudi made her nylon pantyhose pieces beginning in 1977, and she made it first for JAM or the Just Above Midtown, Linda Good Bryant's absolutely legendary gallery in Manhattan.

是的。

Mhmm.

这真的很关键，不是吗？

That's really significant, isn't it?

因为这些作品诞生于她所处的社群之中，而这个社群由一群极具才华的人组成，他们以高度跨学科的方式进行创作，等等。

Because it it's part of that community that she was making this work, and and it was an extremely dexterous group of people who were working in a very multidisciplinary way and so on.

是的，这个团体的重要性真的怎么强调都不为过。

Yeah, you really can't understate the importance of this group.

我认为几年前MoMA举办的Just Above Midtown大型展览，确实认可了他们激进的创作方式——不仅作为纽约的一群艺术家，更以一种有意识或无意识的方式，对全球的艺术创作产生了深远影响。

I think there was obviously this large scale exhibition of Just Above Midtown a few years ago at MoMA that really recognised how they were working so radically, not just as a group of artists in New York, but having this really, whether conscious or unconscious, effect on art making all around the world.

Senga Nengudi是Just Above Midtown展出作品最多的艺术家之一。

And Senga Nengudi was one of the artists that was shown most at Just Above Midtown.

Linda Goodbrien长期以来一直支持她的作品。

Linda Goodbrien advocated for her work for a very long time.

正是在这个空间里，那些极具颠覆性、令人惊叹的作品，以及Senga Nengudi参与的大量精彩合作表演，才得以真正实现。

And it was this space where just really radical, incredible work and lots of amazing collaborative performances that Senga Nengudi was also part of could really manifest.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而表演元素至关重要，对吧？

And the performance element is really crucial, isn't it?

因为她实际上接受过雕塑和舞蹈的训练。

Because she studied actually sculpture and dance.

对吧？

Right?

所以从一开始，舞蹈就融入了她的创作生活。

So it was embedded in her creative life right from the start in a way.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而这正是那个时刻对她如此重要的原因。

And that's kind of why this moment was so important to her.

她已经创作雕塑多年了。

She'd been making sculpture for several years.

她创作了这些美妙的水 compositions，那些是大型塑料袋，底部装着染色的水。

She'd made these wonderful water composition works, which are these kind of large scale plastic bags with water coloured by dye sitting at the bottom of them.

它们很美，很棒，但她真的想找到一种方式，将雕塑与表演结合起来。

They're beautiful, they're wonderful but she really wanted to find a way to bring sculpture and performance together.

她希望创作出能打动人心、并包含动作的表演。

She wanted to make performance that moved people and had movement part of it.

所以找到尼龙袜、使用连裤袜，对她来说是一个灵感迸发的时刻。

So finding the nylons, the use of tights, was for her a light bulb moment.

我很喜欢她称之为‘灵感迸发的时刻’。

I love that she called it a light bulb moment.

她确实用了这个词，对吧？

That's actually she actually used that phrase, didn't she?

是的。

Yes.

但这对她的个人自传来说意义重大，对吧？

But it was really significant in terms of her own autobiography, right?

所以，是的，这不仅关乎当时主流的雕塑语言和运动语言。

So yes, it's about a kind of prevailing sculptural language of the time and a kind of movement language at the time.

但它与她的个人经历密切相关，不是吗？

But it relates very directly to her personal experience, doesn't it?

是的，毫无疑问。

Yes, definitely.

因此，你可以将其视为关于后极简主义和艺术对象去物质化这一对话的一部分，但这也深深植根于她的个人经历，因为塞娜刚生下第一个孩子，这彻底改变了她的思维方式和创作方式。

So you can see it really as part of this conversation about post minimalism and dematerialising the art object, but it's also deeply biographical because Senga had just had her first child and this really changed her way of thinking and working.

她曾说过一段很动人的话：‘在我生下自己的儿子后，我想到黑人女佣们哺育一个又一个孩子，包括她们自己的和别人的，直到乳房垂至膝盖，精力耗尽。’

So it was a lovely quote where she says: After giving birth to my own son, I thought of black wet nurses suckling child after child, their own as well as those of others, until their breasts rested on their knees, their energies drained.

因此，这真正体现了下垂感、衰老的身体，以及身体所承受的巨大负荷。

So it's really this sense of sagging and the ageing body and the body enduring so much.

这不仅仅是为了材料本身。

It's not just for material sake.

它还深刻地揭示了身体，尤其是女性、特别是黑人女性的身体。

It's also something which really tells so much about the body and particularly the body of women and black women specifically.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为强调这一点很重要，不是吗？

And I think that's important to stress, isn't it?

它特别关乎黑人女性，因为紧身裤的颜色是深棕色的。

The fact that it is about black women specifically, because the color of the tights is they're a dark brown.

所以她在创作这件作品时，更多地是在唤起黑人身体，而非普遍意义上的身体。

So she was evoking the black body more than the general body when she was making this piece.

这一点在当时的语境和那个时期创作的作品中非常重要。

And that was important in that context of jam and the context of the the work that was being made at that moment.

当然。

Absolutely.

有趣的是，她走上了这个方向，因为长期以来，人们认为她的作品并不符合黑人艺术家应该创作的内容，因为她并没有制作明显具有政治性的作品。

And it was really interesting that she took in this direction because actually, for a long period I think her work had been seen as not what a black artist should be making because she wasn't making something that was really overtly political.

但她找到了一种极其敏感而细腻的方式，将她的所有兴趣融合在一起，以一种独特的方式表达出如此人性、如此个人化的内容。

But she found this really, really sensitive and nuanced way to bring together all her interests and speak to something so human and so personal, but in a really unique way.

你这么说真的很有趣，因为我最近有幸为《笔触之间》这一集采访了苏珊娜·杰克逊。

It's really interesting you say that because I had the great privilege to talk to Suzanne Jackson recently for an episode of A Brush With.

苏珊娜·杰克逊当时在洛杉矶，和塞娜一起工作，比如在SITA项目中与她密切合作，这是一个关于公共艺术的精彩项目。

Suzanne Jackson was in LA and she worked with Senga there and for instance, worked with her very closely in the SITA program, which was this amazing program for public art and so on.

她也提到，当时人们对黑人艺术家能表现的主题、雕塑的语言等存在一些刻板印象。

And she too said that there were perceptions about what black artists could do in terms of their subject matter, in terms of the language of the sculptures and so on.

那些艺术家所做的部分工作，就是摆脱了对他们创作的某些限制，对吧？

And that part of what those artists were doing was breaking free of certain restraints that were on their practise, right?

是的。

Absolutely.

我认为这正是Senga希望在纽约和洛杉矶之间来回工作的原因之一，因为两地的氛围完全不同。

And I think that's one of the reasons why Senga wanted to work between both New York and Los Angeles, because there was a completely different vibe.

人们对艺术家可以和应该做什么有着不同的看法。

There was a different idea of what artists could and should be doing.

对她来说，在这两个地方之间工作非常重要，这样她可以说：我想这样创作，或者像纽约人那样做，或者像洛杉矶人那样做。

And it was really important for her to work between both of these spaces to be able to say, well, I want to do this like that, or this how New Yorkers do it, and this how they do it in Los Angeles.

但归根结底，她最终创造出了某种全新的东西。

But actually, the end of the day, come someplace different.

洛杉矶真的很重要。

LA is really important.

显然，她长期定居在洛杉矶，实际上她是在加利福尼亚长大的，对吧？

Obviously, she was based in LA, actually she grew up in California, right?

她在70年代初在纽约待了三年，但后来回到了洛杉矶。

And she'd spent three years in New York in the early 70s, but returned to LA.

事实上，她以洛杉矶为基地，尽管她现在在纽约展出这些作品，但她在创作这些作品时确实是以洛杉矶为基地的，对吧？

And in fact, she's based in LA, even though she's showing this work in New York, was based in LA when she begins making these pieces, right?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，她在纽约度过的那段时光至关重要。

So the time that she spent in New York was really pivotal.

尽管只有三年，但她住在哈莱姆区，结识了所有这些激进的思想家。

Although it was only three years, she was living in Harlem, and she was meeting all these radical thinkers.

但真正让她长期作为艺术家工作的地方是洛杉矶。

But really, Los Angeles is the city where she was working as an artist for the longest.

她一直待在那里，直到八十年代末才搬去科罗拉多，以便抚养家庭并照顾年迈的父母——这一点我们稍后再谈，但它充分说明了她作为艺术家的身份以及她如何开展创作。

She still was only there until I think the late eighties before she moved to Colorado to raise her family and also look after her aging parents, which I mean, we'll get onto it, but says a lot about her status as an artist and how she was able to work.

但没错，洛杉矶非常重要，她当时参与了一个名为Studio Z的团体，那是一个松散的集体，成员包括她自己、大卫·哈蒙德、玛丽恩·哈辛格——你在这件作品中能看到他，还有休斯顿·康威尔。

But yes, Los Angeles was really important and she was involved in this group there called Studio Z, who are kind of loose collective her, David Hammonds, Marin Hassinger, who you see in this work, and Huston Conwill.

然后还有一群轮流受邀的嘉宾，他们与这些人一起创作了非常激进的作品。

And then a kind of whole rotating group of invited guests who they made really, really radical work with.

非常协作、即兴创作，占领停车场、立交桥下和游乐场等非艺术空间，并在其中进行表演。

Very collaborative, very improvised, taking over non art spaces like car parks and underpasses and playgrounds and performing in them.

因此，这非常令人兴奋，她的作品很大一部分正是在这种环境中创作的。

So it was really exciting and definitely a large part of her work is making in this environment.

你刚才提到了玛丽娜·哈辛格。

You mentioned Marin Hassinger there.

她对这一点至关重要。

She's so crucial to this.

正如你所说，她出现在这件作品中，但塞娜·内古迪在谈到与玛丽娜合作时，用了一个很美妙的表达。

As you say, she features in this work, but there's this lovely phrase that Senga Nengudi uses about working with Marin.

她说，玛丽娜成了我的伴侣。

She says, she became a couple with me.

对于塞娜来说，她自己承认在表演方面非常害羞，因此并不想亲自表演这些作品，但某种程度上，她把玛丽娜·哈辛格看作是自己的替身。

It's almost like for Senga who admits that she's very shy in terms of performing, So she didn't want to perform the pieces herself, but in a way, she sees Marianne Hassinger almost as a sort of surrogate for her.

她认为玛丽安在作品中代表了她自己。

She sees Marianne as embodying her in the piece.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

我认为她们的关系非常美好，而我们在本次展览中只能触及其中的一小部分。

And I think their relationship is such a beautiful thing that we're only able to touch on a small amount in this exhibition.

但她们已经合作了五十年。

But they've been working together for five decades.

她们至今仍保持密切联系，即使生活在不同的州、不同的时区，并承担着不同的家庭责任，依然能够持续合作。

They still are in very close contact and have managed to continue working together whilst living in different states, in different time zones with different family responsibilities.

这真的非常了不起。

It's really, really wonderful.

但正如你所说，她们的合作最初源于彼此对对方作品的深深欣赏，同时也是一种必然，因为塞娜非常害羞，不愿意亲自表演自己的作品。

But yes, as you say, it started out as a kind of collaboration because they both admired each other's work so much, but also as a necessity because Senga was very shined and didn't want to perform in her works.

但从中发展出的东西却远远超出了最初的意义。

But from that it became something so much more.

我认为这正是她作为艺术家如此特别的地方。

And I think that's something that's so special about her as an artist.

这并不是有人在她的作品中扮演某个特定角色。

It's not someone performing a specific role in her work.

这是一种非常流动的互动与邀请，甚至连名称RSVP（Raphael Subhuppe）都体现了这一点。

It is a very fluid encounter and an invitation, which we get even from the name, RSVP, Raphael Subhuppe.

是的，我的意思是，完全正确。

Yes, I mean, absolutely.

她希望观众在面对这件作品时，即使没有表演者去激活它，也能产生共鸣。

She wanted the audience when they confronted this work, and it didn't have a performer activating it.

她希望吸引观众以某种方式与作品互动。

She wanted to entice the viewer to somehow engage with it.

对吧？

Right?

完全正确。

Absolutely.

这非常有趣，因为剩下的雕塑现在都收藏在博物馆机构中，难以接触，而且绝对无法像她希望的那样被我们亲身遭遇和激活。

Which is very interesting now that the remaining sculptures are in museum institutions and, you know, they're hard to access and they're definitely not something we can encounter and activate in the way that she would like.

没错。

That's right.

但在白教堂美术馆的展览中，你确实有一段很棒的视频，可以看到梅琳·哈辛格在激活这件作品。

But you do have this wonderful video in the exhibition at the Whitechapel where you see Merin Hassinger activating it.

这在我眼中以多种方式都极其有趣。

It's so interesting to me in so many different ways.

首先，声音是一个关键组成部分。

One, there's a crucial component of sound.

一位大提琴手正在演奏，观众在摇动——是他们在摇动种子吗？

A a cellist is playing, and the audience is shaking the is it seeds that they're shaking?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，声音这一元素非常重要。

And so there's this sound aspect.

但看到玛里翁使用这件作品也真的很有趣。

But also, it's really interesting to see Marion using the work.

所以通过使用雕塑来激活它，让它变得不同，以多种方式转化它。

So using the sculpture to activate it, to make it different, to transform it in in so many ways.

跟我们说说她是如何做到的吧，因为我觉得这在森加作品的语境中非常引人入胜。

Tell us about how she does that because I think that's so fascinating in terms of the context of Senga's work.

她是在激活它，但方式似乎相当有编排性。

She's activating it, but it seems in quite choreographed ways.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

而且，玛里昂·哈辛格一直是这件作品的主要表演者。

And I mean, Marian Hassinger has been the main performer of this work.

因此，她确实已经与这件雕塑建立了深厚的关系，我认为这正是森加希望我们理解的方式。

So definitely, she's really honed her relationship to the sculpture, which I think is how Senga would want us to understand it.

她说，她希望表演者对雕塑的敏感度，就像对待舞伴一样，而雕塑也会对此做出回应。

She said that she wants the mover to be as sensitive to the sculpture as they would to a dance partner and the sculpture would then respond to it.

所以正如你所说，这就像雕塑与表演者之间的对话。

So as you say, it's like a dialogue between the sculpture and the performer.

但确实，看到森嘉将尼龙材料悬挂在空间中，营造出这样一个场域，然后玛丽安·哈辛格对其进行操控、转化，使之完全变样，这真是太惊人了。

But yeah, it's really amazing to see Senga has set up the nylon kind of suspended in the space, making this kind of arena, then Merin Hassinger manipulates and transforms and makes into something entirely different.

有一刻，她把尼龙的一部分从墙上取了下来。

At one point, takes part of the nylon off the wall.

所以她基本上改变了雕塑的形态。

So she changes the form of the sculpture basically.

对吧？

Right?

所以这不仅仅是某种意义上的互动。

So it's it's not just about somehow interacting with it.

实际上，它也在某种程度上塑造了雕塑本身。

It's actually, in a way, forming it as well.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

所以它们是活生生的、有呼吸的雕塑。

So they're living, breathing sculptures.

我认为这正是桑加·内古迪作品如此激进的地方。

And I think that's what's so radical about Senga Nengudi's work.

它既不仅仅是表演，也不仅仅是雕塑，也不仅仅是画廊中展出的这些照片。

It's neither just performance or just sculpture or just these photographs that we have on display at the gallery.

它们都是活生生的、有呼吸的作品，彼此相互影响，形成对话。

They are all living, breathing works and they all inform each other and they're in dialogue.

看到这一点真的非常特别。

And that's just really special to see.

确实如此。

Indeed it is.

我想问问你与桑加在展览宣传册中的交流里，这件作品更广泛的引用来源。

I wanted to ask about the wider references to the piece in the exchange that you have with Senga for a leaflet accompanying the show.

其中有一个关于莉迪亚·克拉克的精彩引用。

There's a wonderful reference to Lydia Clark.

我觉得这非常有启发性。

And I thought that was just so instructive.

而且这也反映了那个时代的特点，因为她提到自己看到过一幅莱迪亚·克拉克作品的图片。

And also it says a lot about the time because she says that she saw an image basically of a Lydia Clark work.

我想那可能是感官手套，是一件包含球和手套的作品。

I think it might be sensorial gloves, which is a piece with a ball and a glove.

同样，这关乎互动性。

Again, it's about interactivity.

但在那个年代，令人惊叹的是，这么多艺术家都在艺术杂志上看到过图片。

But it's amazing in that time, how many of those artists were seeing images in art magazines.

这些图片会成为一种触发点。

And it would be a trigger.

他们实际上未必亲眼见过那些作品，但仅仅在杂志上看到一张图片就足够了。

They wouldn't actually necessarily have seen the pieces, but it was just enough to have an image in a magazine or whatever.

而这足以激发他们创作出一整套作品。

And that would trigger a whole body of work for them.

是的，当然。

Yeah, no, absolutely.

当她谈到贝利热伦·克拉克的联系时，我感到非常高兴。

And I was very happy when she was talking about Belligerent Clarke connection.

我之前对这方面了解不多。

I hadn't really known about that so much before.

但她确实吸收了大量不同的参考元素。

But she was really, really taking in so many different references.

她提到了凯瑟琳·邓汉姆关于海地舞蹈的图像，这同样是她通过二手途径、图像或幻灯片等方式接触到的内容。

I mean, she speaks about Catherine Dunham's images of Haitian dances, which again is something she would have encountered secondhand or through images or slides or something like that.

但她确实也旅行过，尽可能多地汲取其他文化的影响。

But she did also travel and try and soak in as much in terms of other cultures as she could.

她曾在日本待过一段时间。

So she spent time in Japan.

她深受舞踏表演和Gutei团体的启发。

She was really inspired by Buto performance and the Gutei group.

但她真的、真的只是在尽可能地吸收一切。

But she really, really just was trying to take in as much as possible.

这些都渗透到了她的作品中。

And it was soaking into her work.

我认为，是的，她当时关注的是一些与其他艺术家非常不同的影响。

And I think, yeah, I think she was looking at really different influences to other artists at the time.

我认为她并不太在意后现代主义那些宏大的问题，也不太关注当时那个领域里谁在做什么。

I think she wasn't so concerned about, you know, the big questions of postmodernism and who was working at the time in that field.

我认为她真正寻找的是某种与众不同的东西，努力发掘那种能在她的作品中真切感受到的精髓。

I think she was really looking for something different and really trying to find the essence that you can really feel in her work.

有趣的是，我再次提到音乐，因为音乐在展览的表演中扮演了重要角色。

It's also interesting that again, I mentioned music in terms of the performance in the show.

音乐对她作品来说至关重要，不是吗？她曾谈到用作品创造一种爵士乐。

Music is so central to her work, isn't She talks about creating a kind of jazz with her work.

是的，是的。

Yeah, Yeah.

我的意思是，她非常喜爱孙·拉，但她也把爵士乐视为自己的创作过程。

I mean, she's a big fan of Sun Ra, but she talks about jazz as her process as well.

她想要找到一些新的音调。

Like, she wants to find these new tones.

她想要找到一些与众不同的东西。

She wants to find, like, something that sits differently.

但我想，当你观看马林·赫辛格的视频时，也能明显看到这种即兴创作，因为这完全是一种探索，同时也在于理解你的搭档接下来会提供什么，这是一种……

But I think also you can really see this improvisation when you watch the video of Marin Hessinger, because it's all about testing, but it's also all about understanding what your partner will provide next, know, it's the kind of

这是雕塑家之间的应答互动。

It's a call and response between the sculptor

没错，正是

and Exactly, the

应答互动。

call and response.

是的，这正是最贴切的表述，真的非常精彩。

Yeah, that's exactly the term for it, which is really amazing to see.

谈谈这件作品的遗产。

Tell us about the legacy of this work.

正如我所说，她曾在JAM展出过，是那些正在从事非凡工作的社群中的一员。

So as I say, you've shown at JAM, she's part of these communities that are doing really amazing work.

她是否延续了这种精神？

Does she carry that on?

你提到她仍然与玛丽恩·哈辛格保持联系，但她的作品在多大程度上持续保持突出和可见？又在多大程度上，直到现在我们才真正重新发现它的全部价值？

You mentioned that she stays in touch with Maren Hassinger, but to what extent does her work then stay prominent, stay visible and to what extent, you know, is it only now that we're really rediscovering the full extent of it?

正如我所说，她不得不搬回科罗拉多。

Well, as I said, she had to move back to Colorado.

尽管如此，她一直持续创作，同时也在教学。

She kept making throughout all of us, but she was also teaching.

而那正是她谋生的方式。

And that was, you know, how she made her income.

在她创作一些最具影响力作品的时期，她实际上并没有靠艺术赚钱。

She really wasn't making money as an artist for while she was making some of her most influential work.

直到2000年代中期，她才获得了更多的认可。

And it really wasn't until the mid 2000s that she received more recognition.

那时有一些极具开创性的群展，比如《艺术与女性主义革命》和现在的《洛杉矶黑人艺术》，这些展览展现了她作为艺术家的先锋地位和重要性。

So there were some really pioneering group exhibitions around that time, such as Art and the Feminist Revolution, and now Art in Black Los Angeles, which showed how pioneering and prominent she was as an artist.

但我感觉我们至今仍在感受着那种影响。

But I feel like we're still feeling the effects of that now.

我的意思是，她在美国举办过个人展览，也在少数国际场合展出过，但就在几周前，她刚刚获得了劳申伯格奖。

I mean, she's had solo shows in The US and a few internationally, but she just won the Rauschenberg Award a couple of weeks ago.

我觉得我们此刻才真正意识到她影响的深度。

I feel like we're only really realizing the extent of her influence at the moment.

确实如此。

Indeed, we are.

好吧，汉娜，能够谈论这位伟大的艺术家真是太好了。

Well, Hannah, it's great to be able to talk about this great artist.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

塞娜·内古迪的表演作品1972至1982年正在伦敦白教堂美术馆展出，展期至6月14日。

Senga Nengudi Performance Works 1972 to 1982 is at the Whitechapel Gallery in London until the June 14.

此次展览还与美术馆的其他展览同步举行，包括维罗妮卡·莱恩的《多重对话》，同样展至6月14日。

The exhibition accompanies other shows at the gallery, including Veronica Ryan Multiple Conversations, which also continues until the June 14.

你可以在2月25日播出的《A Brush With》播客中收听我对维罗妮卡·莱恩的采访，并在《艺术新闻报》的YouTube频道观看这段对话的视频。

You can hear my interview with Veronica Ryan on the A Brush With podcast from the February 25, and watch a video of that conversation on The Art Newspaper's YouTube channel.

本期节目就到这里。

And that's it for this episode.

本播客由亚历山大·莫里森和大卫·克拉克制作，大卫同时也是音效设计师和剪辑师。

The podcast is produced by Alexander Morrison and David Clack, and David's also the sound designer and editor.

也要感谢我们的设计师达尼埃拉·哈瑟韦，以及我们的嘉宾加雷思、戴尔、卡门和汉娜。

Thanks also to our designer, Daniela Hathaway, and to our guests, Gareth and Dale, Carmen and Hannah.

你可以在Facebook、Instagram、Threads和Blue Sky上找到我们。

You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Threads, and Blue Sky.

谢谢收听。

Thank you for listening.

我们下周见。

We'll see you next week.

暂时再见。

Bye for now.