监控与执法的冰河时代

这是一场武器化的剑桥分析公司阴谋。

It's a weaponized Cambridge Analytica scheme.

所以，让我感到震惊的是，这一点。

So so here's then what what is blowing my mind about this.

如果我可以这么说的话，是利用高科技、二十一世纪最前沿的生物识别分析来锁定目标。

If if I can say, like, is high-tech twenty first century cutting edge biometric analysis to find their target things.

所以，拉德利向我解释了这些混蛋是怎么最终在家得宝拿到网，或者在塔吉特停车场错打无辜者的。

So Radley explained to me then how these motherfuckers end up with a net at Home Depot or beating the shit out of the wrong people in a Target parking lot.

他们使用的是人类已知的最复杂的信息分析工具和技术，这些是任何政府以前都从未接触过的。

They're using the most sophisticated information analysis and tools known to man that no government has ever had access to to get these things.

但与此同时，我们却看到他们在街头像拿着锤子一样大喊：‘给我过来！’

And yet we see them out in the streets just like a hammer going like, get over here.

那么，这一切的目的是什么？

Like, so what is the what is the point of all that?

在我看来，这本应是一场针对最恶劣分子的精准、细致、有分寸的执法行动。

The idea seems to me that this could be a targeted, precise, nuanced police action on the worst of the worst.

但实际情况却是，他们在塔吉特停车场里胡乱横冲直撞。

But instead, it's a ham fisted run through a Target parking lot.

这到底是在搞什么鬼？

What the what is going on?

所以，那种针对最恶劣分子、充分利用这项技术的做法——虽然我对这一切都深感忧虑，但如果这真是他们唯一的目的，如果他们真只打算这么做，我想我们大多数人不会像现在这样如此震惊。

So the Targeted, you know, worst of the worst using that technology to its capacity, you know, as worried as I am about all that, if that was only what they were doing, if that was their interest here, you know, I don't think a lot of us would be nearly as alarmed as we are.

问题是，这根本不是他们的目标。

The problem is that's not the goal.

他们的目标是制造恐惧。

The goal is to instill fear.

他们的目标是让整个移民社群吓得魂飞魄散，让他们不敢正常生活，逼得他们告诉亲人别出门，因为这里太可怕了。

The goal is to make entire immigrant communities to scare the shit out of them, to make them not want to live their lives, to make them tell their relatives to stay home because it's too miserable here.

就是为了吓唬人。

It is to scare people.

就是为了让他们受苦。

It's to make them suffer.

我的意思是，这个政府公开表示，他们希望移民尽可能地受苦，因为他们希望移民自己离开。

I mean, this administration has openly said that they want immigrants to suffer as much as possible because they want them to self deport.

他们希望移民离开。

They want them to leave.

他们不想再走任何他们还愿意给予这些人的正当程序。

They don't want to have to go through whatever due process they still, you know, are willing to afford these people.

你知道的，那很贵。

They you know, that's expensive.

嘿，孩子们，怎么样？

What's up, kids?

你们知道我这个人，是个绅士，别的不说，我可是极其有条理的。

You know me as a gentleman, you know, who is nothing if not incredibly organized.

你们也知道，我拥有一切，真的，我就在想，那你们那儿怎么称呼它来着？

You know, as someone who has everything, really, you know, I'm I'm like, what do you call it there?

A型。

Type a.

我想他们称之为type a。

I guess they call it type a.

当你非常有条理并且一切都井井有条时，那叫什么来着？

What is it when when you're completely organized and you have keep okay.

好吧。

Alright.

我一点都不整洁。

I am I am not organized.

我非常邋遢，而且年纪还大，这真是个糟糕的组合。

I am incredibly sloppy and in fact old, which is terrible combination.

生活中大部分事情——90%的生活——都是在管理各种事务。

And life is really, for the most part, 90% of life is keeping track of things.

账单、预约、钥匙，还有你根本不知道自己在付的钱包订阅。

Bills, appointments, keys, subscriptions that you didn't even know you were paying for.

我觉得我每年大概要花三万美元在从未拥有的汽车上的Sirius电台服务上。

I think I spend, I think, maybe around $30,000 a year on Sirius radio for cars I've never even had.

这就是Rocket Money的用武之地。

That's where Rocket Money comes in.

那些你根本不知道自己在付费的订阅服务。

The the subscriptions you didn't even know you were paying for.

Rocket Money是一款个人理财应用，能帮你发现并取消不需要的订阅，监控你的支出，并降低账单费用，从而帮助你增加储蓄。

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

顺便说一句，它不会评判你。

And by the way, it doesn't judge.

它不会像那样给你发通知，说：‘哼。’

It's not like you get notifications where Rocket Money's like, bah.

真的吗？

Really?

你真要为那本杂志花钱？

You're gonna throw money down for that magazine?

我就是这么老派。

That's how old I am.

我只是提到了杂志。

I just made a reference to magazines.

我都不确定现在还有没有杂志了。

I don't even know if they have them anymore.

Rocket Money 可以在这里帮到你。

Rocket Money can help you out here.

它有预算目标功能。

It's at budget goals.

你会收到大额交易和即将到期账单的实时提醒。

You get real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills.

它能让你清晰地了解自己的财务状况。

It gives you a clear view of your financial picture.

活期存款、储蓄、贷款、投资，全部集中在一个仪表盘上。

Checking, savings, loans, investments, all in one dashboard.

别再为那些你从不使用的东西浪费钱了。

Stop wasting money on things you don't use.

让 Rocket Money 帮助你更快地实现财务目标。

Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster.

前往 rocketmoney.com/tws 加入我们。

Join at rocketmoney.com/tws.

就是 rocketmoney.com/tws。

That's rocketmoney.com/tws.

rocketmoney.com/tws。

Rocketmoney.com/tws.

说实话，我以为那是无能；顺便说一下，拉德利现在正和他的狗在一起，因为那里正经历一场可怕的风暴，他得照顾他的狗。

I thought it was incompetence, to be honest And with by the way, Radley is with his dogs right now because there's a terrible storm where he is, and he's had to have his dogs.

我之前在摄像头里看到过它们，不得不说，真的很可爱。

And and I saw them earlier on camera, and I gotta say, pretty adorable.

你那儿有几只又大又可爱的狗呢。

You got you got some big old pretty adorable dogs there.

是的。

Yeah.

我们住的酒店里还有很多其他养狗的人。

We're in a hotel with a lot of other dog owners.

所以奥斯卡听到外面有人，但没关系。

So Oscar hears some people outside, but it's okay.

狗酒店。

Dog hotel.

我想我看过那部电影。

I think I saw that movie.

但通常来说，作为一个持怀疑态度但不一定有阴谋论倾向的人，我一般会尽量不把本可以用无能解释的事情归咎于恶意。

But rather you know, normally as a sort of skeptical, but not necessarily conspiratorial thinker, I generally try not to chalk up to nefarious intent what can be easily explained by incompetence.

但他们的无能让人觉得不能简单地用无能来解释。

But their incompetence feels like we can't chalk up.

它感觉像是有恶意的。

It it feels nefarious.

所以我会说，我觉得两者都有那么一点。

So I I I'll I'll say, I think there's a little bit of both.

我认为他们明显降低了这些机构的招聘标准。

I think that that they are they've they've clearly lowered their hiring standards for these agencies.

他们让边境巡逻队负责这些行动，据一位前ICE人员告诉我，FBI算是主力团队。

They've put Border Patrol in charge of these operations, which is pretty well known as being kind of the was one former ICE person told me, the FBI is kind of the varsity team.

ICE和HSI是替补队，而边境巡逻队简直就像一群喝醉了的办公室软式棒球队。

ICE and HSI are the junior varsity, and Border Patrol is kind of like the drunken office softball team.

而基本上，整个行政体系现在就是由这样的人在掌管。

And like, that's basically who the administration has put in charge of everything.

顺便说一句，如果你是边境巡逻队，你为什么会在明尼阿波利斯？

And by the way, if you're Border Patrol, what are you doing in Minneapolis?

难道他们是在守护通往圣保罗的边境吗？

Is that so are they guarding the border to St.

圣保罗？

Paul?

我们到底在干什么？

Like, what are we doing?

这是

It's

职责扩张，但也是因为边境巡逻队长期以来以肆意妄为、极度暴力且缺乏问责而闻名。

mission creep, but it's also because they border patrol has a long reputation of being rogue, of being extremely abusive, of not having much accountability.

我认为这引出了第二点，即政府希望谁来负责这件事。

And I think this gets to the second point, which that is who the administration wants in charge of this.

他们想制造恐怖。

They want to inflict terror.

他们想吓唬人们。

They want to scare people.

他们想让人们痛苦不堪。

They want people to be miserable.

他们直截了当地说过，第一任期期间实施家庭分离的原因，就是为了让人们知道，如果你来到美国寻求政治庇护，我们会从你怀里把孩子强行带走。

They flat out said, you know, the reason for family separation during the first term is they wanted people to know that if you come to The United States seeking political asylum, we're going to rip your children out of your arms.

我们希望你受苦，因为我们不希望你再来这里。

We want you to suffer because we don't want you to come here anymore.

如果你已经在这里，我们也想让你受苦，因为我们希望你自愿离开。

And if you're already here, we want you to suffer because we want you to leave voluntarily.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

这就是方式。

And that's the way.

所以这一切都是更大计划的一部分，这让我们涉及到这样一个概念。

So this is all sort of it's of a larger plan, which gets us into sort of this idea.

这 supposedly 是一个共和党保守派政府。

So it's a supposedly Republican conservative administration.

我对于保守派的理解一直是小政府、支持第二修正案。

And my understanding of conservatives has been limited government, pro second amendment.

我的意思是，我看着每一个旨在防止这类滥用的宪法保障机制，正被那些崇拜宪法的人一一抛弃——他们把‘我们人民’印在旅游巴士上，挥舞着毒蛇旗，所有这些认知失调的行为简直让我难以置信。

I mean, I'm watching every constitutional guardrail that is in place to prevent these kinds of abuses be thrown away by the people who fetishize the constitution, who who bubble wrap their tour buses with We the People, who stand with the Gadsden flag, who do all the the the the cognitive dissonance of all this is is blowing my mind.

约瑟夫，这个群体现在的精神准则到底是什么？

Joseph, what's what is the ethos anymore of this group?

他们当然不能一边声称自己支持宪法，一边又允许一个人掌控世界上最先进的技术来针对这些个人。

You they they certainly can't argue that they are pro constitution and yet want one man to control the most sophisticated technology in the world to target these individual.

这完全说不通。

It doesn't make any sense.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，当拥有合法持枪许可本应受保护，却反而成了在街头被枪击的借口时，他们怎么能说自己支持第二修正案呢？

I mean, they can't say they're pro second amendment when apparently having a legal firearm that you are licensed to carry apparently gives some sort of justification for you to be shot in the street.

所以他们不能声称自己相信这一点。

So they can't say they believe that.

第四修正案呢？当移民与海关执法局购买这些位置数据时，他们却认为不需要搜查令。

The fourth amendment, when ICE buys this location data, they believe they don't need a warrant.

他们不需要像往常那样向AT&T或Verizon申请搜查令。

They don't have to get a warrant to go to AT and T or Verizon like they normally would.

在这里，他们只需向某些数据经纪商支付数万甚至数十万美元，其法律依据是：如果人们不希望被追踪，早就该关闭手机上的位置服务了。

Here, they just send tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to some data broker and the legal rationale is that, well, if people didn't want to be tracked, they would turn off location services on their phone.

所以他们自愿放弃了隐私权，尽管听我们对话的任何人都不清楚我在说什么，因为这项技术太过隐蔽，没人关注或了解，对吧？

So they're willingly giving it up even though nobody listening to this has any idea what I'm talking about because it's such an obscure technology that nobody reads about it or nobody knows about it, right?

直到我们把它揭露出来。

Until we reveal it.

所以，这当然完全是荒谬和可笑的。

So of course, that's completely facetious and a farce as well.

然后，最令人担忧的是，美联社首先报道的备忘录——正如我所说，ICE认为现在他们可以在没有司法授权的情况下进入私人财产。

And then, of course, most worryingly is the memo the Associated Press first reported on the, as I said, ICE believes it can now enter private property without a judicial warrant.

而且，说实话，在那之前，我已经有很多条红线了，当然，从我个人角度来看。

And, I mean, there was already several of the red lines from me personally, obviously, before that point.

但对我来说，这简直太疯狂了。

But that is just absolutely nuts to me.

你知道吗，当我写《战士警察》这本书时，我做了大量关于建国初期的研究，探究为什么我们会形成不让军队承担国内警务的传统，以及为什么会有‘城堡原则’等等。

You know, when I wrote the Warrior Cop book, I did a lot of research on the founding era and kind of why we have these traditions of not letting the military service domestic police and why we have a castle doctrine and all of that.

在研究过程中，我找到了一份波士顿报纸的档案，当时英国军队被派到波士顿街头执行日常警务。

And in part of that, I found archives from a Boston newspaper when the British had put troops in the streets of Boston to do sort of day to day policing.

当你翻阅这些档案时——我最近在我的通讯里也提到过——你可以找到一些摘录，内容持续了许多年。

And you go through those archives, and I just wrote about this on my newsletter, and you can find excerpts and there's you know, they go on for years and years.

但这些描述就像当时的社会媒体动态，一种老式版本。

But the descriptions it was sort of like a social media feed of the time, like an old timey.

你知道，里面都是第一手的目击记录，比如士兵和市民发生了冲突

You know, it was like firsthand accounts of like, you know, a soldier got into a screen

就像是由小册子作者发布的推特。

Twitter by pamphleteer, sort of.

对，没错。

Right, right.

是的。

Yeah.

但你看看这些记载中描述的场景，它们与我们从明尼阿波利斯看到的情况惊人地相似。

But you look at the scenes described in those accounts, and they are remarkably similar to what we're seeing coming out of Minneapolis.

我认为部分原因在于，这是一个古老的问题——你不该把军队派到城市中去 policing 自己的民众。

And I think that's in part because this is an age old problem of you don't have you don't put the military in the middle of cities to police their own people.

波士顿民众对驻扎士兵的愤怒和紧张，最终导致了波士顿惨案的发生。

And the anger from the tension in Boston of having those soldiers there are why it eventually will beat to the Boston Massacre.

但正是这些原因，才让我们有了第二、第三和第四修正案，因为当时士兵拥有这些泛泛的搜查令。

But it is specifically why we have a second, third, and fourth amendment, because you had soldiers who had these general warrants.

他们有权在任何时间闯入任何人的家中，搜查未缴税的商品，对吧？

They had the power to break into anybody's home at any time to look for untaxed goods, right?

那么，现在ICE试图做什么呢？

Well, what's ICE trying to do now?

他们声称自己可以无需搜查令，随时闯入任何人的家中搜查非法移民，对吧？

They're claiming they could break into anybody's home at any time without a warrant to look for undocumented people, right?

我的意思是，这些相似之处简直令人难以置信。

I mean, the parallels are so incredible.

正如你所说，这种虚伪简直令人震惊，因为保守派总是强调建国时期，强调美国革命是多么正义和正当的事业。

And as you said, I mean, the hypocrisy is just stunning because the conservatives are always pointing to the founding, always pointing to, you know, what a just and righteous cause the American Revolution has.

如果他们当时生活在波士顿，肯定会指责萨姆·亚当斯和保罗·里维尔是煽动者和国内恐怖分子。

If they had been alive at the time in Boston, they would have been accusing, you know, Sam Adams and Paul Revere of being agitators and domestic terrorists.

这绝对是板上钉钉的事。

I mean, it's guaranteed.

还有叛乱分子。

And insurgents.

他们根本不明白，顺便说一句，不管你喜不喜欢唐纳德·特朗普，不管你怎么盲目追随他，像信教一样崇拜他，都没关系。

They don't understand, like and by the way, like, love Donald Trump, say what you want, follow him blindly, religiously, whatever you wanna do.

但别把这和革命与爱国主义扯上关系，因为你们才是真正的保皇派。

But don't tie it to the revolution and patriotism because you guys are the Tories.

你们会站在那一边的。

You'd be the ones that that were on that side.

你知道最让我气愤的是什么吗？

And you know what was, I think, the most galling to me?

你看。

Look.

首先，我根本不知道共和党或保守派现在到底是什么东西。

I first of all, I don't even know what the Republican Party or the Conservatives even are anymore.

我不知道他们究竟建立在什么智力基础之上，因为除了‘唐纳德，你怎么看？’之外，似乎没有任何连贯的价值观。

I have no idea what sort of intellectual foundation they're standing on because it doesn't seem to have any coherent value other than what do you think, Donald?

然后他一说，他们就跟着说：这听起来没错。

And then he says it and they go, that sounds right.

真正让我感到愤怒的是，看到他们都在谈论，我的意思是，这个家伙带着枪出现了，但视频里他只是挥舞了一下，他们就立刻回避了。

So what truly upset me was to see them all talking about, I mean, this guy showed up with a gun and they quickly got off the like, was brandishing it when the video there.

但他们仍然说：你不能这么做。

But they're still saying, I mean, you're not allowed to do that.

他们却对这种行为盲目崇拜。

And they fetishize it.

我觉得让我气愤的是，他们竟然在这个情况下突然质疑自己的第二修正案权利。

And I think what was galling to me is, you know, they're willing to suddenly challenge their Second Amendment rights in this instance.

但当一群孩子在桑迪胡克或乌瓦尔德的幼儿园里被枪杀时，他们却一声不吭。

But when a bunch of kids were gunned down in a fucking, like, grade school at Sandy Hook or in Uvalde, not a word.

他们对‘枪支可能是个问题’这句话连提都不提。

Not a word about, hey, guns might be an issue.

我们或许该好好想想这个问题。

We might wanna think about that.

直到有个男人拿着手机，试图保护一位刚被胡椒喷雾袭击的女性，他们才终于说：也许不该让每个人都持枪。

It it took a guy holding a phone, trying to protect a woman who had just been pepper sprayed for them to finally go, maybe everybody shouldn't be armed.

这让我感到震惊。

And that's the part that stunned me.

而且，卡什·帕特尔说过，别带着枪去参加抗议活动。

Well, and Kash Patel said that, you know, don't bring a gun to a protest.

卡什·帕特尔还主动提出帮助凯尔·里滕豪斯起诉拜登和媒体，指控他们对他进行人格诽谤，而当时他可是带着枪跨州行动的。

Kash Patel offered to help Kyle Rittenhouse sue Joe Biden and the media for, you know, character assassination when, you know, he brought his guns across the state line.

我是说，得克萨斯州州长格雷格·阿博特，当年在乔治·弗洛伊德抗议期间，有个得州男子曾发短信给朋友说‘我要去杀个抗议者’，还在网络论坛上发帖说‘我要去杀个抗议者’，然后真的出去杀了人。

I mean, Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas, there was a guy in Texas during the George Floyd protest who texted a friend saying, I'm gonna go kill a protester, who posted online in a forum, I'm gonna go kill a protester, and then went out and killed a protester.

而格雷格·阿博特赦免了他。

And Greg Abbott pardoned him.

我的意思是，他已经被陪审团定罪了，但格雷格·阿博特还是赦免了他。

I mean, was convicted by a jury, and Greg Abbott pardoned him.

那个人带着枪去抗议，目的就是杀人，而阿博特因为他是右翼分子，杀掉的恰好是个自由意志主义倾向的抗议者，而不是极左翼抗议者，所以阿博特赦免了他。

That guy brought a gun to a protest for the specific purpose of murdering someone, and Abbott, because he was a right winger and killed a turned out to be libertarian ish protester, not a far left protester, but Abbott Abbott pardoned him.

所以这一直都是虚伪的。

So it's hypocrisy all the time.

还有，在佛罗里达，德桑蒂斯态度非常明确。

And look, in Florida, DeSantis has been very clear.

如果你想用车当致命武器对付抗议者，尽管放马过来。

If you want to use your car as a lethal weapon on protesters, be my guest.

是的。

Yep.

约瑟夫，我们现在是不是处于这样一种情况：只要国家机器针对的是他们讨厌的人，就没人关心会发生什么？

Are we in a situation now, Joseph, where all of these tools, nobody cares what happens as long as the tools of the state are used against people that they hate?

这就是现在的理念吗？

Is that the is that the philosophy now?

总的来说，似乎是这样。

Broadly speaking, it seems that.

通常来说，例外情况是，别担心。

And and you usually, the carve out would be, don't worry.

这些工具被卖给了国土安全调查局。

The tools are being sold to HSI.

再说一遍，所谓的好人是国土安全调查局的人，诸如此类。

Again, the the quote unquote good guy is part of ICE, that sort of thing.

但当卡托研究所的数据表明，高达90%的国土安全调查局官员原本是追捕坏人的，现在却在协助移民执法时，情况就变了。

But when you have data from the Kato Institute saying there's something like 90% of HSI officials who would usually be actually trying to catch the bad guys and they get all the fancy tools, now they're helping with immigration enforcement.

我的意思是，政府机构之间的数据壁垒正在瓦解，现在那些拥有先进工具的人正在寻找无证移民。

I mean, it's like, again, the breaking down of data barriers between government agencies and now you have the the guys with really fancy tools trying to find, undocumented people.

我的意思是，这些工具中的一些——我得小心措辞，因为我还没看到确凿证据表明它们被用于对付抗议者，比如手机定位数据之类的东西。

I mean, some of these tools also, and I'll be very careful what I say here because I haven't seen evidence it has been used against protesters, the phone location data stuff.

是的。

Yes.

销售该产品的公司叫PenLink。

The company that sells that is called PenLink.

这是一家大型美国承包商。

It's a big US contractor.

他们曾明确宣传其手机定位工具，用于监控当年发生的BLM抗议活动。

They explicitly advertise their phone location tools to monitor BLM protests back when that happened.

现在，这些产品已被出售给ICE和HSI。

Now that is the product that's been sold to ICE and to HSI.

但如果他们逆向工程这些产品，例如，有些产品可以追踪ICE，这些产品正被禁止。

But if they reverse engineer those products, for instance, there are certain products that can track ICE, those are being banned.

对。

Right.

我曾就此事进行过广泛报道

I I've reported extensively on

对。

Right.

Ice Block 已从苹果应用商店下架。

Ice Block being removed from the Apple App Store.

我的意思是，苹果甚至下架了一个根本没在报告 ICE 官员行踪的应用。

I mean, Apple even removed an app that wasn't even reporting sightings of ICE officials.

它只是一个存档，收集了来自 TikTok 等平台的 ICE 滥用行为视频，而苹果却把它删了，这甚至更进一步。

It was just, an archive of videos from, like, TikTok and stuff of ICE abuses, and Apple took that down, which is going even a step further.

那里没有人肉搜索，也没有监控。

There was no doxing, no surveillance.

它只是我们想保存这些视频。

It was just like, we would like to preserve videos.

以便将来我们能合法合理地追究某些人的责任，而苹果也把这一个应用下架了。

So in the future, we might be able to hold some people accountable legally and justifiably, and Apple took that down as well.

我们脑子里得记住这么多事情。

We have to hold so many things in our head.

你知道吗，拉德利，我相信你记得1984年苹果的广告，当时大兄弟出现在巨大的屏幕上，所有人都在观看，突然有个人拿起大锤砸碎屏幕，倡导不同凡响，等等。

You know, Radley, I'm sure you remember the 1984 Apple commercials where, you know, Big Brother is on the giant screen and all the the people are are watching and somebody takes a sledgehammer, throws it through and think different and all that.

而现在，他们自己成了那块屏幕。

And now they're the screen.

你知道，我认为这里还有一件事值得深思，那就是他们招募人员的方式，对吧？

You know, the other I mean, the other thing that I think is worth pondering here is the way that they're going about recruiting people, right?

我写过很多关于警察招募的内容，讲的是他们在招聘流程的最初阶段如何挑选人选。

I mean, they I've written a lot about police recruiting and how they kind of select people at the very first stage in the process.

过去你可以在YouTube上搜索‘警察招募视频’，看到各种各样的视频，现在可能依然可以。

And you used to be able to you probably still can't go to YouTube and type in police recruiting video, and you'll see this really kind of vast range of videos.

所以，我认为一个有成效的视频应该展示警察在社区中帮助民众的场景，对吧？

So what I think would be a productive video would show cops helping people in a community, right?

协助人们。

Assisting people.

但在另一端

But then on the other end

就像肯德尔·詹纳的百事可乐广告。

of Like the Kendall Jenner Pepsi commercial.

他们出场后，喝了一口百事可乐，所有人都和好了。

They come out, but then they get a Pepsi and everybody's healing.

所有人都——是的，没错。

And everybody yeah, right.

但你想要强调的是，比如这种社区服务的方面，对吧？

But you want to emphasize, like, the community service aspect of it, right?

另一方面，太多警察部门的招募视频都充斥着震耳欲聋的吉他声、警察从直升机上滑降、放狗扑向人群。

Well, on the other end of the spectrum, too many police departments that are recruiting videos are blaring guitars, cops rappelling out of helicopters, sicking dogs on people.

当你在招募过程的最初阶段就诉诸这些元素时，我认为这反映出该警局的优先事项出了问题。

When that's what you're appealing to at the very first step in the process, I think that's indicative of a police agency that doesn't have the right priorities.

而我们现在看到的ICE以及这些联邦反移民组织在社交媒体上，又是如何试图招募人员的呢？

And what we're seeing with ICE and these federal anti immigration groups, on social media, how are they trying to recruit to people?

他们诉诸的是血与土的叙事。

They're appealing to blood and soil narratives.

他们明确引用了白人至上主义的文献。

They are making explicit references to white supremacist literature.

我的意思是，他们使用的那些符号。

I mean, some of that iconography that they're using.

这些符号甚至不是法西斯主义的回声。

The iconography is not even an echo of fascism.

这不是。

It's no.

这是

It's a

他们可能会被布索利尼以侵犯版权为由起诉。

They could be sued by Bussolini for copyright infringement.

这是一种放大。

It's an amplification.

对吧？

Right?

而且除此之外，他们其实也是内容创作者。

And and beyond that, though, I mean, you know, they're also they're content creators.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，还记得我们最早看到的那条来自洛杉矶的视频吗？你看到边境执法官员在人行道上追赶一名移民。

I mean, remember the fir one of the first videos we saw out of Los Angeles, you saw ICE agents chasing this guy this immigrant down the sidewalk.

而在所有边境执法官员身后，你还能看到另一名国土安全部员工举着摄像机跟着他们跑，就是为了把这一切都拍下来，发到社交媒体上。

And then behind all the ICE agents, you saw another DHS employee carrying a camera running behind them to get it all, you know, on video for social media.

哦，这简直是警察的剧集。

Oh, it's cop's episode.

我明白了。

I see.

对。

Right.

如果你想想，谁在看我们看到的这些可怕视频呢？比如那些待业在家的人，他们会想，你知道吗？

And if you think about, like like, who is watching these horrific videos that we're seeing, like, sitting at home unemployed and thinking, you know what?

这就是我想靠它谋生的方式。

That's what I wanna do for a living.

就像，你知道的，想象一下人们对它感到兴奋的样子。

Like, that that is, you know, that is Well, imagine people excited by it.

你刚刚因为1月6日的事件被赦免了。

You've just been pardoned for your role in January 6.

你很难找到另一份工作，你看这个广告，我的意思是，我见过的那些人，真正让我困扰的是。

Having trouble And finding another you see this commercial I mean, that the people that I've seen and here's what what is really troubling to me.

我知道很多警察和消防员，也许是我太贴近这个圈子了。

I like, I know a ton of Cops and Firebuddy, like and maybe I'm too close to it.

我对这些人充满爱与尊重。

I have such love and respect for those guys.

我知道他们怀着善意想要帮助别人。

And I know what they're trying to do and help people in good hearts.

而这种方式让人们看待他们，让他们的工作变得难上加难。

And this makes their jobs infinitely harder because of the way that people are viewing it.

他们根本没有把这两者区分开来。

They're not separating any of the two out.

我要说的是，武器大量涌入我们的街道，而我们连对非法武器进行任何合理监管都做不到，这导致了街头的军备竞赛，最终必然促使警察部队军事化，因为他们不能在火力上处于劣势。

And I will say this, I think that the flood of weapons into our streets and our inability to have any kind of sensible regulation of even the illegal weapons creates an arms race on our streets that inevitably leads to a militarization of police because they can't be outgunned.

我们的枪支政策有多么荒谬，正是这种荒谬让警察首先陷入危险，因此他们才会过度军事化，开始使用这些技术。

Like, the insanity of our gun policy is what leads them to be in danger in the first place, so they overly militarize, start to use this technology.

而现在，我们陷入了一个恶性循环，问题的焦点突然变成了抗议活动中合法持有的枪支，而不是最初引发这场军备竞赛的根源。

And now we're caught in this vicious cycle where all of a sudden, the one problem with it is a legally permitted gun at a at a protest rather than what has started this arms race.

你知道，我对这种说法有一点不同的看法，因为我接触过很多执法人员，尤其是那些一线警察，他们对所看到的一切感到愤怒。

You know, I think the the one way I would push back a little bit on that narrative is that, you know, I I have talked to a lot of law enforcement people, particularly law enforcement people, and they're furious about what they're seeing.

他们确实非常愤怒。

They're absolutely furious.

我同意你的观点。

I agree with you.

但我也要指出，这位总统最大的支持者之一，以及反对控枪措施的主要力量，正是警察团体，尤其是警察工会。

But I will also say that, you know, one of the biggest supporters of this president, one of the biggest supporters of opponents of gun control measures are, you know, police groups and particular police unions.

我本来想说的是工会和治安官。

I was gonna say unions and sheriffs.

我不认为治安官是政治性的。

I wouldn't I wouldn't say like, sheriffs are a they're political.

没错。

Correct.

工会也相对具有政治性。

And unions are are relatively political as well.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我认为基层警员

I think the rank and file

我认为大城市警察局长。

I think big big city police chiefs.

大城市警察局长们觉得，我们必须把这些枪从街头清除掉。

Big city police chiefs are like, We got to get these guns off the streets.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Right.

但工会极其如此，而且你知道，全国步枪协会是世界上最支持警察的组织之一。

But the unions are extremely and also, you know, the NRA is one of the most absolutely pro police organizations around.

你知道，他们根本无法谴责这些枪击事件。

Like, you know, they can't bring themselves to condemn, you know, any of these shootings.

我也经常指出，全国步枪协会做过最奇怪的事之一，就是他们与科林·卡佩尼克开战。

I've also I've often pointed out that, you know, one of the weirdest things the NRA ever did was they went to war with Colin Kaepernick.

而你知道，科林·卡佩尼克其实是个持枪者。

And, you know, Colin Kaepernick was actually a gun owner.

他们本可以真正取得一些进展，但对他们来说，做这样一个象征性的亲警察组织似乎更重要。

Like, they could have actually made some inroads and, you know, but it was more important to them to sort of be this, you know, symbolic kind of pro pro cop organization.

我认为这种关联很难摆脱，我觉得。

And I think that nexus is is hard to get around, I think.

但如果你是一个觉得社会中存在不公的人，这也很难回避。

Well, it's also hard to get around if you are somebody who feels you see something wrong in your society.

很难搞清楚什么是被允许的抗议方式。

It's hard to get around what are the rules of acceptable protesting.

你不能带着iPhone上街。

So you can't go out there with an iPhone.

你不能带着哨子上街。

You can't go out there with a whistle.

你不能去扶起被喷了催泪瓦斯的女性。

You can't try and help a woman up who's been maced.

你不能开车去。

You can't bring your car.

你不能，但你也不能

You can't but you also can't

在橄榄球比赛中单膝下跪。

kneel before a football game.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

不能在橄榄球比赛前下跪。

Can't kneel before a football game.

那么，这个世界上究竟什么才是被接受的呢？

Like, what exactly is is acceptable in this world?

约瑟夫，我想问你，保护我们免受这种权力集中侵害的界限在哪里？

And, Joseph, I wanna ask you, and what are the what are the guardrails to protect us against this consolidation?

科技力量与政府权威正在前所未有的集中。

There is an unprecedented consolidation of tech power and government authority.

而国会却缺席了。

And Congress is absent.

即使他们没有缺席，也完全无法抗衡。

And even if they weren't absent, they're so fucking overmatched.

是的

Yeah.

当然

Absolutely.

说实话，情况并不乐观。

I mean, frankly, things do not look good.

你知道，民主党议员曾试图对ICE的面部识别应用设置一些限制，说你们不能把它推广给地方警察，而这正是他们原本想做的。

You know, democratic lawmakers have tried to introduce some sort of guardrails on ICE's facial recognition app saying, hey, you can't roll out to local cops, which is what they wanted to do as well.

你刚才提到的那些县治安官部门和治安官，他们也可能在手机上安装ICE的面部识别应用，以便使用。

All of those sheriff departments and those sheriffs you were talking about, they would potentially have ICE's facial recognition app on their phone as well so they could use it.

民主党议员正试图遏制这种情况。

Democratic lawmakers are trying to rein that in.

我不认为。

I don't.

说实话，我不觉得这会发生。

Frankly, I don't see that happening.

很明显，这是六个人对上无数人。

Obviously, it's a group of six against however many.

再往前推几年，ICE曾被告知：你们非法使用了一些位置数据。

And then even going back a couple of years, ICE was told, hey, you're using some of this location data illegally.

他们基本上说：我们不在乎，还是会继续这么做。

They basically said, we don't care and we're going keep doing it.

所以即使有内部监督，比如来自国土安全部内部监察机构的监督，也根本没什么用。

So even when there is internal oversight, you know, from inspector of, you know, the the oversight bodies inside DHS and that sort of thing, it doesn't really mean anything.

而那还是几年前情况更好的时候。

And that was when things were better a few years ago.

所以我对这一点几乎没有希望。

So I have very, little hope for that.

所以各位，你知道的，我就是那种特别烦人的人，总爱说：嘿，我有个主意。

So folks, you know, I'm one of those people, the people that are very annoying, who always saying things like, oh, I got this idea.

我有个商业点子。

I got a business idea.

我确实有一个商业点子。

And I actually do have a business idea.

其实这个点子是关于怎么养狗的。

It's actually for you know how do have a dog?

你知道吗，当你进家门把外套扔在地上，突然一转身，你的狗就坐在上面，因为它们喜欢地形起伏。

You know how like when you throw your coat on the floor when you come into the house and then all of a sudden you look turn over and your dogs are sitting on it because they love topography.

它们不只是喜欢一块垫子。

They don't just love a mat.

它们喜欢有一点高低起伏的地形。

They like a little topography.

所以我发明了‘褶皱毯’。

So I've invented the crumple.

‘褶皱毯’是一种可以扔在地上的狗用毯子。

The crumple is a blanket for dogs that you throw on the ground.

每次你把它扔下去，它都会呈现出不同的地形起伏。

And each time you throw it down, it gives a different topography.

所以你的狗，这个产品叫Crumple，这才是关键。

So your your dog it's called the crumple is is the whole point.

事实上，我还没能把这个想法付诸实践。

And and the fact is, I haven't gotten it off the ground yet.

这甚至算不上一个原型。

It's not really it's not even a prototype.

我只是说，这会是个爆款。

I'm just saying it's a winner.

这会是个爆款。

It's a winner.

你知道，也许你不知道该如何开始这项生意。

And, you know, look, maybe you're not hept to like how to start this business.

也许你没学过计算机科学，或者其他那些相关领域，但你可以用Shopify在线打造你的梦想店铺。

Maybe you didn't go to school for computer science, you know, or any of those other kinds of things, but you can build your dream store online with Shopify.

它提供易于使用且可自定义的模板。

It's got an easy to use and customizable templates.

Shopify 提供了在线和线下销售所需的一切。

Shopify has got everything you need to sell both online and in person.

内置营销工具，可创建自己的电子邮件和社交媒体活动。

Marketing built in, create your own email, social campaigns.

随着业务增长，Shopify 也会与你一同成长。

And as it grows, Shopify grows with you.

数百万创业者，从家喻户晓的品牌到初次创业者，都已迈出这一步。

Millions of entrepreneurs, household names to first time owners, have made the leap.

所以我准备好了。

So I'm ready.

我已经有了 Shopify。

I've got, I've got the Shopify.

我已经有了在线商店。

I've got the online store.

我有了简单易用的工具。

I've got easy to use.

我只需要有人帮我做那个皱巴巴的东西。

I just need somebody to make me the crumple.

因为我跟你说，皱巴巴的东西才是正在发生的事，皱巴巴的才是未来。

Cause I'm telling you, crumples what's happening, crumples the future.

所以在2026年，别再等待，立即用Shopify开始销售吧。

So in 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify.

注册你的每月1美元试用版，今天就去shopify.com/tws开始销售吧。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/tws.

前往shopify.com/tws。

Go to shopify.com/tws.

就是shopify.com/tws。

That's shopify.com/tws.

在新的一年里，让Shopify陪伴你开启你的第一声欢呼。

Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side.

欧洲更成功吗？

Has Europe been more successful?

我的意思是，我现在正在关注伊朗革命。

I mean, I'm watching right now in the Iranian revolution.

他们在这方面进步得很快，利用技术手段来封锁互联网，对抗民众。

They they've gotten so much better at shutting off the Internet, using the technological tools against people.

欧洲有没有找到更积极的方式去监管这些滥用行为？

Is is Europe finding a way to be more proactive at at regulating these abuses.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我不想用太多术语，但归根结底就是

And not to get, like, too jargony, but it really just comes down to

别整那些花里胡哨的术语了，宝贝。

Jarging it up, baby.

走起。

Let's go.

坦白说，根本原因就是美国没有联邦层面的隐私法。

It really just frankly comes down to there is no federal privacy law in The United States.

加州有他们自己的规定。

California has their thing.

伊利诺伊州有一项关于生物识别面部识别的法律。

Illinois has a biometrics facial recognition one.

美国没有一项全面的法律能够对此提供帮助。

There's no overarching law in The US that could help with this.

在欧洲，你有GDPR（通用数据保护条例），它阻止了私营公司与政府如此紧密地相互勾结、互相利用。

In Europe, you have GDPR, the general data protection regulation, which stops that melding of private companies and states in such a way where they're just feeding off one another.

当然，欧盟仍然存在监控，但不会到我作为德国人，就能去买走所有公民数据的程度。

Of course, surveillance still happens in EU, but not to the extent where I'm Germany, let me go buy all of the data from my citizens.

而在美国，这种情况已经成为常态，因为你缺乏这一基本的保障机制，而一切乱象都由此蔓延开来。

Whereas that's just that's the norm now in in The US because you don't have that foundational guardrail, which then everything would spiral out from that.

我们甚至连这个都没有。

We don't even have that.

这简直令人难以置信，因为你想想，他们的根本宗旨究竟是什么——我们必须阻止精英阶层掌控我们的生活。

Which is so fucking mind blowing because you think about what is their general raison d'etre, which is we have to get the elites from being able to run our lives.

所谓精英，他们指的是社会学教授之类的人。

And by elites, they mean sociology professors or whatever it is.

但真正的精英却可以为所欲为。

But the actual elites are allowed to run amok.

拉德利，关于乔的事情，我们有没有什么应对办法？

Radley, is there any- is there any recourse to kind of what we're talking about with Joe?

因为在我看来，没有什么比亿万富翁科技阶层与一位获得最高法院完全豁免权的总统联手、为所欲为更精英主义的了。

Because this is I can't think of anything that's more elitist than the trillionaire tech class joining forces with a president that is granted total immunity by the Supreme Court, and them joining forces to do whatever they want.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我觉得你问的是改革问题，我会让约瑟夫谈谈科技方面的改革，因为那超出了我的专业范围；但就警察问责而言，我认为我们其实可以做一些非常基础的事情，前提是民主党能掌控众议院、国会，甚至可能赢得白宫。

You know, I think your question's about sort of reforms, and I'll let Joseph talk about the tech reforms because that's a little outside my wheelhouse, but in terms of police accountability, there are some very basic things I think that we could do, you know, assuming the Democrats take control of the House and the Congress, possibly the White House.

目前，如果联邦执法人员侵犯了你的宪法权利——无论是杀了你、殴打你，还是对你进行种族 profiling——你根本无法起诉他们。

I mean, currently right now, there is no real way to sue a federal law enforcement officer if they violate your constitutional rights, whether they kill you, whether they beat you, whether they racial profile you.

他们拥有绝对豁免权吗？

Do they have absolute immunity?

这就是J.

That's what J.

D.

D.

万斯说的，他们拥有绝对豁免权。

Vance was saying, is they have absolute immunity.

所以万斯是错的。

So Vance is wrong.

他们并不享有刑事指控的绝对豁免权。

They don't have absolute immunity from criminal charges.

他们仍然可能在联邦和地方层面被起诉犯罪，但在民事责任方面，比如你起诉一名州警察侵犯了你的权利——假设他们殴打你或不公正地杀害了你的亲人——你可以依据《三K党法案》提起联邦诉讼，也就是所谓的第1983条诉讼，但他们享有有限豁免权，这很难突破。

They can still be charged both federally and locally with crimes, but in terms of civil liability, so if you sue a state police officer for violating your rights, let's say they beat you or kill your relative unjustly, you can sue, you can file a federal lawsuit under the Ku Klux Klan Act, called a Section nineteen eighty three suit, but they have qualified immunity, which is hard to get by.

但它是可以被克服的。

But it can be surmounted.

如果是联邦官员，他们甚至拥有绝对豁免权，因此又多了一层保护。

If it's a federal officer, you can't even they don't even they have absolute immunity, so it's another layer of protection.

在联邦法院起诉他们几乎是不可能的。

Almost impossible to sue them in federal court.

国会明天就可以改变这一点。

And Congress could change that tomorrow.

他们明天就可以通过一项法案，规定联邦警察享有与州警察相同的有限豁免权，这仍然相当重要，但我们不会让他们完全凌驾于法律之上，你知道，这太疯狂了。

They could pass a bill tomorrow saying, We're going to give federal police officers the same qualified immunity that state officers have, which is still pretty significant, but we're not gonna make them completely and utterly above the law, which is, you know, insane.

所以，拉维，他们是不是在利用移民与海关执法局来规避这种有限豁免权？这就是他们在做的吗？

So, Ravi, are they are they using ICE to get around that even qualified immune are they is is that what they're doing?

他们是在规避责任，所以不会被追责吗？

Are they circumventing so that they aren't gonna be liable?

是的。

Yeah.

他们没有。

They're not.

我的意思是，斯蒂芬·米勒在发表言论时说你们有绝对豁免权，他的意思是，没有人能以民事损害赔偿为由在联邦法院起诉你们，对吧？

I mean, they're these that's what that's what Stephen Miller, when he goes on and says, You have absolute immunity, what he's saying is, Nobody can sue you in federal court civilly for damages, right?

我们不会在联邦法院对你提起刑事指控，因为我们支持你的行为，所以这件事不会在联邦层面发生。

We're not going to charge you criminally in federal court because we support what you're doing, so it's not going to happen at the federal level.

你所能期待的最好结果，或许是州检察官或总检察长能对这些人提起刑事指控，但这些案件很可能会被移送到联邦法院，而司法部很可能会为这些人辩护，对抗地方检察官。

The best that you can hope for is maybe a state prosecutor or an attorney general could criminally charge these people, but those cases are going get removed to federal court, and then the DOJ is probably going to be defending those people against local prosecutors.

因此，说到问责，目前唯一剩下的真正手段就是羞辱和社会污名化。

And so, you know, in terms of accountability, the only real thing that's left at this point is shaming and social stigma.

那么，你为什么觉得他们现在都戴着面具呢？

Well, why do you think they're all wearing masks now, right?

因为这剥夺了我们最后一种问责途径。

Because that takes away that last kind of vector of accountability that we have.

但我想说的是，这件事中令人欣慰的部分是，国会明天就可以改变这一切。

But the thing is, I guess what I'm saying, the hopeful part of this is Congress could change all this tomorrow.

他们明天就可以通过一项法律，规定你可以对联邦官员的民权侵犯行为提起诉讼。

They could pass a law tomorrow saying, Here's a way that you could sue federal officers for civil rights violations.

他们仍然会享有有限豁免权，这已经不错了，但不再是绝对豁免。

They're going to get qualified immunity, which is still great, but not absolute immunity.

这将是一个非常重要的进步。

And that would be a a I think a really important step forward.

约瑟夫，你知道，那些在街头的移民与海关执法局特工、他们追捕的嫌疑人、最终被针对的无辜者，这仍然是那种老式的、面对面的人际互动。

And, Joseph, you know, that's still, you know, the the ICE agent on the street, the the the perp that they're going after, the innocent person that they end up targeting, that's still a kind of old fashioned analog interaction, human to human, face to face.

在一个我们甚至都不确定的情况下，问责机制又在哪里呢？

Where can there be accountability in a world where we're not even sure?

你知道，在科技界，这些人根本不是通过选举产生的，所以那里没有任何补救途径。

You know, when you're in the tech world, a, those guys aren't elected in any way, so there's no recourse there.

而且，B，这根本不是一个面向消费者的业务。

And B, it's not really a consumer facing business.

这是一个面向政府的业务。

It's a government facing business.

所以我们连消费者的力量都没有。

So we don't even have consumer power.

根本不会有像抵制百威淡啤那样的针对帕兰蒂尔的抵制。

There is no Bud Light boycott of Palantir.

我根本不知道他们是从哪儿搞到这些的，你知道的？

I wouldn't have any fucking idea where they get their you know?

特斯拉可以继续，但只要埃隆知道SpaceX会有上万亿的收入，那还有什么动力呢？

Tesla can go again, but as as long as Elon knows he's got a trillion dollars coming in for SpaceX, like, what are the incentives?

我们该如何在这片反乌托邦的新现实中做出反击？

What how do we, in any way, push back on this dystopian new reality?

是的。

Yeah.

当我发布一篇关于Palantir的文章时，有人会在社交媒体上回复说该抵制Palantir了，我就会摇头，心想你在说什么？

I I have seen it when I'll post one of my Palantir articles, and somebody will reply on social media, it's time to boycott Palantir, and I'm shaking my head like, what are you talking about?

这根本不是这么回事。

That's not how this works.

我再也不会去他们的商店了。

I'm not going to their store ever again.

我想他们大概是把我跟Peloton搞混了，大概吧。

I think they're confusing me with Peloton or something like that probably.

我要把我的健身单车烧了。

I'm gonna burn my exercise bike.

但说到你的问题，普通人能做的其实很少。

But mean, to get to your question, there isn't much an ordinary person can do.

作为一名记者，我真的觉得现在太难了，已经持续了好几个月、好几个月的大规模驱逐行动。

And I'll just say as a journalist is really, really hard is now months and months and months into the mass deportation campaign.

直到现在，我们才终于弄清楚，原来Palantir在构建的东西是这个。

And only now are we finally figuring out, oh, that's actually what Palantir is building.

那是一个用来寻找移民目标的小地图，当然我们本可以猜到，但现在才真正确认。

It's the little map to find immigration targets, which of course we could have assumed, but now we only really know.

要了解正在发生的事情真的非常困难。

It is really hard to even get an idea of what is going on.

当然，这些公司就是这样。

And of course, these companies like that, obviously.

而且当然，它们根本不对公众负责。

And even, of course, they're not really accountable to the public.

他们对自己的员工都几乎不负责任。

They're barely accountable to their own employees.

当你拥有帕兰蒂尔时

When you have Palantir

更不用说他们的股东了。

Certainly not their shareholders.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Right.

当你看到帕兰蒂尔的员工说，嘿，我们不喜欢这样。

When you have Palantir workers saying, hey, we don't like this.

他们还在Slack内部表达这种意见。

And they're saying this internally in Slack.

我们报道过这件事，最近怀亚特也又做了一次类似的报道。

We reported that and then Wyatt just did another one recently as well.

他们继续为这项工作辩护。

They continue to defend the work.

除非公司内部发生翻天覆地的变化，否则很难做出任何改变，因为坦白说，他们靠这个赚得盆满钵满。

Like it would require like a tectonic shift inside the company to make any sort of change because frankly, they are making bank on this.

这可是数千万，甚至上亿美元的收入。

It's tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars.

Palantir的股价表现非常出色，对吧？

Palantir's stock is performing exceptionally well, right?

我不认为不仅Palantir，就连Meta和扎克伯格等人也有任何动力去与这个政府保持距离。

I don't see any incentive for not even just the Palantirs, but even the Metas and the and the Zuckerbergs as well.

我看不出他们有任何动机去与这个政府脱钩。

I don't see any incentive from them to disalign themselves with this administration.

嘿。

Hey.

如果未来出现另一个政府，

If there's another administration, if there's another administration in the future,

哦，这有点黑暗。

maybe Oh, that's dark.

抱歉。

Sorry.

也许这些科技公司又会再次倒戈。

Maybe those tech companies will then flip again.

当然，他们会希望我们完全忘记他们在特朗普第二任期期间所做的一切。

And of course, they'll expect us to just forget everything that they just did during the second Trump administration.

但当然，他们反复无常。

But, of course, they flip flop.

这就是这些科技公司所做的。

That is what these tech companies do.

你知道，这些新工具——我不确定这是否属实，但我的感觉是，它们比那些会派游说者去国会山的国防承包商更具明确的政治倾向，但它们根本不在乎你是谁。

You know, these new tools and I don't know this to be a fact, but it my feeling is these are more explicitly overt political actors than even what you would consider defense contractors who would send lobbyists to Capitol Hill, but they don't really give a shit who you are.

它们只知道，我想要更多不受监管的资金。

They just know, I I want more unaccountable money.

我不希望通过审计。

I don't wanna pass an audit.

我只是希望你继续供养军事工业复合体。

I just want you to keep feeding the military industrial complex.

这是军事工业复合体的一种新形态，显得更加公开地带有意识形态色彩。

This is a new kind of appendage of that military industrial complex that feels much more overtly ideological.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

百分之百。

A 100%.

就像你提到的，洛克希德·马丁公司只是做自己的事的那种日子已经一去不复返了。

Like, gone are the days where, as you alluded to, Lockheed Martin just doing their thing or whatever.

来参加派对吧。

Come to a party.

我们有虾。

We have shrimp.

我们只是卖武器，随便吧。

We just sell the weapons, whatever.

现在你有了这些极具魅力的创始人和所有者，比如安朱里尔的帕尔默·卢基，这家公司为美国、墨西哥和加拿大边境提供人工智能赋能的哨塔。

Now you have these very charismatic founders and owners, you know, there's Palmer Luckey of Anjuril, which provides AI enabled towers for the for The US, Mexico and the Canadian border.

他明显地站出来了。

He's very obviously coming out.

我们需要保卫家园。

We need to defend the homeland.

当然，帕兰提尔的卡普也说我们需要保卫西方。

Of course, have carp from Palantir as well saying we need to defend the West.

而且卡普确实经常跟硅谷较劲，说你们这些年就只会做外卖应用。

And carp actually, you know, constantly beefs with Silicon Valley saying you guys have just made like food delivery apps for years.

我们实际上在努力带来真正的改变。

We're actually trying to make, a difference.

现在这一切都明明白白了。

It's completely explicit now.

这甚至都不是潜台词。

Like, it's not even a subtext.

他们在美国各地的公交站都投放了广告，试图吸引更多人加入Palantir，说来做一些真正有意义的事。

They have I mean, there were adverts on bus stops, I think, throughout The United States for Palantir trying to get more people to come join the company saying, you know, come and do something that actually matters.

这些人的立场已经完全摆在明面上了。

It's completely front and center from these people.

这是一门意识形态驱动的生意。

It is an ideological business.

对他们来说，这不仅仅是赚钱。

It is not just making money for these people.

没错。

Right.

我们以前怎么可能看到雷神公司的CEO谈论反基督呢？

Like we never would have seen the CEO of Raytheon, you know, giving lectures about the Antichrist, Right?

我的意思是，我觉得你说得对。

I mean, this is I think you're right.

这完全是另一种层次。

Like, this is an entirely, like, different class.

但会不会是格蕾塔·通贝里呢？

But could it be Greta Thunberg?

我的意思是，咱们坦诚点吧。

I mean, let's be honest.

对我来说特别有趣的是，那个讲格蕾塔·通贝里可能是反基督的人，我们说的其实是彼得·蒂尔——一个强大却不透明的亿万富翁，掌控着这些科技公司？

You know what's so interesting about to me is the guy that like, the guy giving the lecture about how Greta Thunberg might be the antichrist, and we're talking about Peter Thiel, Like, is this powerful, not transparent billionaire who runs these tech companies?

如果你要拍一部关于反基督的电影，别搞什么中产阶级选角，我觉得我肯定会选这个有权有势的亿万富翁当反基督，而不是那个坐在小艇上的女孩。

And you're like, if I'm making a movie about the Antichrist, not to be a Joe Central casting, but I think I'm gonna go with the powerful billionaire guy as Antichrist, not the girl on a flotilla.

这感觉一点都不像反基督的设定。

Doesn't doesn't feel as anti Antichrist esque.

我们才刚进入这一年的阶段。

We're only a year into this.

我觉得这里已经展现出来的一点是，这种形式对很多美国人来说完全是个陌生的东西。

You know, the one thing that I think has been demonstrated here is that this is an alien format to a lot of Americans.

你在明尼阿波利斯看到的这些人，我知道右翼常说这些都是受雇的煽动者。

And what you're seeing in Minneapolis and the people, and these are just, I know that the the big word on the right is these are paid agitators.

他们就是一群拿着哨子的普通人。

They're fucking regular people with whistles.

这就是他们在街头使用的工具。

That's their technology out on the streets.

是的，也许他们像大多数Facebook群组或Signal聊天那样通过社交媒体组织起来。

And yes, maybe they organize on social media like most Facebook groups do or signal chats or whatever it is.

但这些根本不是什么所谓的谎言。

But this these are not you know, that that's that's a lie.

嗯，我同意。

Well, I would yeah.

这是我的一种乐观看法，我想，因为我最近做了很多关于移民的报道。

Well, this is this is my my optimistic take, I guess, which is that I've been doing a lot of reporting on immigration.

这并不是我职业生涯中经常涉及的领域，但这迫使我去恶补相关知识。

It's not something I reported on a lot in my career, but that's required me to kind of bone up.

但这同时也让我看了大量这些令人痛心的视频，我看了很多，有时真的让人感到不堪重负。

But it's also required me to watch a lot of these really horrific videos that we see, and I've taken in a lot of them, and it could be a little overwhelming sometimes.

但这跟人们实际所经历的相比，根本算不了什么。

Nothing compared to what the people are actually going through.

但我想说的是，真正激励并鼓舞我的，正是你提到的这一点——我最早在芝加哥看到这种情况，因为那是我开始深入报道这一议题的地方。

But I will say that the thing that has just really inspired and invigorated me is exactly what you're talking about, which is I first saw it in Chicago because that was where I first kind of started covering this in-depth.

我浏览了这些口哨队和相关团体的Facebook页面，看到一些我大学时的同学，他们过去从未参与过政治，现在却在建立在线数据表格，安排谁去当地学校护送移民孩子回家以免被捕，谁去为这些不敢出门的移民群体洗衣服，谁去为他们采购食物。

And going into the Facebook pages of these whistle brigades and these groups and seeing people that I went to college with who have never been political in their lives, who are now setting up online data spreadsheets for who's going to go to the local school to chaperone immigrant kids back home so they don't get arrested, who's going to do the laundry for these immigrant groups who are afraid to leave their homes, who's going to get groceries for them.

还有表格记录了ICE何时出现在家得宝，以便靠建筑行业谋生的移民能趁机去采购物资，而不必担心被逮捕。

There were spreadsheets about where people were writing down when ICE was at Home Depot so immigrants who make their living in construction could go get supplies without having to worry about being arrested.

我的意思是，在明尼阿波利斯，有五万到十万民众在零度以下的严寒中走上街头，因为他们对ICE对社区和邻居所做的事情感到愤怒。

I mean, I found it I mean, in Minneapolis, had 50,000 to 100,000 people come out in zero degree weather, because they were angry about what ICE was doing to their communities and what it was doing to their neighbors.

我的意思是，所有主要的精英机构都彻底崩溃了。

I mean, this is it's every all the major elite institutions have just completely buckled.

目睹这一切，真的让人感到幻灭、不堪重负、心灰意冷。

And it's been really disillusioning, overwhelming, disheartening to watch.

但话说回来，看到普通人挺身而出，亲自站出来保护自己的社区和邻居，真的让人深受鼓舞。

But man, on the flip side of that, watching people stand up, just individual regular people putting their, like, bodies on the line, putting their, you know, just defending their neighborhoods and their neighbors, you know?

这非常鼓舞人心，而且确实有效。

And it's been inspiring, and it worked.

对吧？

Right?

你看波维诺发生了什么。

I mean, look at what happened to Bovino.

你知道的。

You know?

看吧，这招是管用的。

Like, it works.

但他是个卡通人物。

But he's a cartoon character.

而且，赶走波维诺让我想起轰炸委内瑞拉的毒品快艇——你只是牺牲了一个低级别的无名之辈。

And, you know, getting rid of Bovino reminds me of bombing a Venezuelan drug boat where you're like, okay, you you you've sacrificed a low level non entity.

我想说一件事，也想听听你们的看法。

One thing I'll say about and I'll ask your guys' opinion of it.

我通常认为，我不是在纳粹那种‘我只是奉命行事’的意义上说的。

I generally think and I'm not talking about in the Nazi sense of we're just following orders.

但一般来说，执法部门是遵循社区意愿的。

But generally, law enforcement follows the will of the communities.

比如，警察往往被派到某些地方进行隔离，把坏事挡在富人区之外。

Like, the police go to places as a quarantine to keep bad things away from the richer people, generally.

而那些地方发生的虐待行为，人们不想看到，也不想知道。

And the abuses that go on there, people don't want to see and they don't want to know about.

但警察本身并不是去实施虐待的。

But the police themselves are not there to abuse.

他们只是在尽力完成人们所要求的工作。

They're there to just try and do the job that people have said.

赶走贝维诺，等于暗示这一切的策划者斯蒂芬·米勒、执行者唐纳德·特朗普，是被一股过于激进的力量蒙骗了，而这股力量把一项正义的使命搞砸了。

To get rid of Bevino is to suggest that the architect of this, Stephen Miller, the executor of this, Donald Trump, are somehow have been hoodwinked by an overly aggressive force that has bungled what is a righteous job.

我只是不认为情况是这样的。

And I just don't think that's that's the case.

他们被下达了指标，要驱逐那些属于社区根基的人。

They have been given a quota to get rid of people in communities that are part of the fabric of community.

没有人上街去确保抓到强奸犯。

Nobody's out in the streets trying to make sure that you can't find the rapists.

这根本不是真的。

That's just not true.

他们只是想说，对不起，老兄。

They're just trying to say, I'm sorry, man.

我认识这个人，作为一个普通人。

I know this person as a human.

他们工作很努力。

They work hard.

他们只是在尽力做自己的工作。

They're just trying to do what they do.

把它当作民事问题，而不是刑事问题，也不是军事问题。

Treat it as a civil matter, not a criminal matter, not a military matter.

这对我来说就是这种感觉。

That's what it that's what it feels like to me.

但是

But

有趣的是，移民与海关执法局刚刚经历了多次领导层更替。

Well, it's funny because ICE has just cycled through all of these leadership changes.

对吧？

Right?

我记不清具体有多少次了，但确实有好几次，我们因为某人抓的人不够多就把他换掉，然后换上另一个人，结果这个人又被撤了。

I can't remember how many there were, but there were, like, several where we'll kick out this guy because he's not bringing in enough, then we'll bring in somebody else and that person's out.

然后，正如你所说，行动被移交给了边境巡逻队，现在他也被撤了。

And then operations are moved, as you say, to border patrol, and now he's out as well.

当然，特朗普政府正在与之划清界限。

And, of course, the Trump administration is distancing itself from it.