If We Can Make Genetically Engineered Designer Babies - Should We?

2018年，中国诞生了两名女孩，她们是世界上首批经过基因编辑的人类。

In 2018, two girls were born in China who were the first ever genetically modified humans.

不久之后，又有一名女孩也接受了基因编辑。

They were followed a little bit after by a third girl who'd also been gene edited.

这三个孩子都是从经过基因编辑的胚胎发育而来的，目的是让她们对艾滋病产生免疫力。

They'd all been grown from embryos gene edited with the intent to give them immunity to HIV.

但这个过程并没有按预期那样成功。

But the process didn't work out as planned.

负责创建这些胚胎的科学家贺建奎，被判了三年监禁。

And the scientist who made those embryos, Hei Zhangqui, he was jailed for three years.

他还被处以罚款。

He was fined.

在世界上大多数国家，修改人类胚胎都是非法的。

And it's illegal to modify human embryos in in most of the world.

但尽管如此，这个领域仍然吸引了大量资金投入。

But there is a lot of funding, nevertheless, a lot of funding flowing into this area.

这周，我们要报道一项直接相关的研究，它解决了2018年那三个女孩身上出现的某些问题。

This week, we're gonna report on research that has a direct bearing on this because it gets rid of some of those problems that occurred in 2018 with those three girls.

所以问题是，我们离安全地基因编辑婴儿、制造所谓的‘定制婴儿’，是不是越来越近了？

So the question is, are we getting closer to be able to safely gene edit babies to make designer babies, so called?

如果真能实现，那大概什么时候会发生？

And when might that happen, if so?

来自《新科学家》，这里是世界、宇宙与我们。

From newscientist, this is the world, the universe, and us.

我是罗文·胡珀博士。

I'm doctor Rowan Hooper.

今天我邀请到了迈克尔·利佩奇。

I'm joined by Michael Le Page.

迈克尔，你多年来一直跟进这方面的报道。

Michael, you've been reporting on this for years.

我们先聊聊你最近发现的关于CRISPR基因编辑的新研究吧。

Let's start with this new work that you've uncovered now about CRISPR gene editing.

这比之前的技法有了改进，而那项技术本身已经被认为是21世纪最重要的生物技术革命。

That's an an improvement on that technique, which already is has a claim to be the most important biotech revolution of the twenty first century.

是的。

Yeah.

从宏观来看，关于基因编辑婴儿，有两个关键问题：首先是，我们能安全地做到吗？

So just standing back there, these two big questions about gene editing children, which the first of all is, can we do it safely?

其次是，即使能安全做到，我们到底该不该做？

And then the second, of course, is if we can do it safely, should we do it at all?

明白。

Mhmm.

到目前为止，大家一直毫无疑问地认为，这技术根本不安全。

Now up until this point, there's just been no doubt that it's not safe at all.

当年在中国诞生的那些孩子，人们主要的反对意见并不是说让她们抵抗艾滋病毒不对，而是技术还没成熟到能安全操作。

When those kids were created in China, the main objections were not necessarily that trying to make them HIV resistant was wrong, but that the technology wasn't there to do it safely.

这一直是个大问题。

So that was a big problem.

当然，那次用的是比较老的CRISPR技术，现在人们已经开始用更新、更先进的CRISPR版本了。

And, of course but this was done using an older form of CRISPR, and now people are starting to use, you know, more updated and better forms of CRISPR.

所以那种旧技术会给那些孩子带来意想不到的基因突变。

So because that old form introduced, like, unwanted mutations into those children.

对吧？

Right?

结果也没能达到预期的效果。

It didn't work as as intended.

那现在这种碱基编辑的新方法呢？

And is this new sort of base editing way of doing it?

它能解决这个问题吗？

Is that's gotta get around that?

是的。

Yeah.

最初的CRISPR技术其实更像是一种精准的破坏，而不是精确的编辑。

So the the original form of CRISPR was actually more like a a sort of targeted destruction rather than precise editing.

我尽量不讲太细，但简单说吧，我们体内都有这些DNA链。

So I'll try not to go into too many details, but, basically, you know, we've got these strands of DNAs in ourselves.

就是这些双链结构，早期的CRISPR会直接把它们切断，结果就留下两个游离的断端。

You know, these sort of double stranded bits of DNA, and the original form of CRISPR cut right through them, so you had two ends floating around.

当细胞试图修复时，可能会引入突变，比如几个碱基变了，正好把某个基因打掉——这本来就是我们想达到的效果。

And then when the cell tries to repair them, it can introduce these mutations, and, you know, there might be of a couple of letters change, which would sort of knock out a gene, which is what you want to do.

但问题也来了，那些DNA断端可能错误地连到别的地方，导致大规模的结构重排。

But then also what can happen is those ends of DNAs, they can be joined up to the wrong things, and then you get these big rearrangements.

另外还有一个问题，DNA可能被切在了错误的位置，这就带来了不该有的突变。

And, of course, the other issue is that that DNA can be cut in the wrong place, and then you you get these unwanted mutations.

所以这里面能出错的地方太多了。

So there are all these things that can go wrong.

现在如果你只是想编辑植物，想试多少次都行，反复调整也没关系。

Now if you just sort of, you know, trying to sort of edit a plant and you can do it as many times as you'd like to get it right.

这样就没问题。

That's fine.

如果你要编辑的是孩子，就没这种机会了。

If you're trying to edit children, you don't have that luxury.

这种事根本就不该尝试。

It should never have been tried.

对。

Yeah.

实际上，我知道你报道过一些改进版的CRISPR技术，它们正朝着更高的精准度发展，现在连碱基编辑都更精确了。

And, actually, I know you've reported on different variations of CRISPR that are trying to get more precise, and now base editing is is even more precise.

顾名思义，它能直接修改DNA中的单个碱基对。

And as it suggests in the the name, it can edit a single base pair of DNA.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

没错。

That's right.

这些技术不再切割DNA，而是对CRISPR酶进行了改造。

So instead of cutting the DNA, these are these are modified forms of the CRISPR enzyme.

它们会化学改变其中一个DNA碱基，同时在另一条DNA链上做一个单切口。

They they sort of chemically alter one of the DNA letters, and then at the same time, they make a little cut, a single cut in the opposite strand of DNA.

当修复酶过来时，它们会看到这种被修改过的DNA形态。

And then when repair come repair enzymes come around, they go they see that altered form of DNA.

觉得这是个错误，于是就把它修正了，顺便把那个碱基给改回来了。

I think, oh, that's a mistake, and they correct it, and they change the DNA letter in the process.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你根本没把DNA完全切断，所以这种方法安全得多。

And so because you're not you're never cutting completely through the DNA, this is much safer.

出错的概率低很多，正因如此，它的精准度也让它更安全。

It's much rarer for things to go wrong, and so that precision means it's a lot safer.

它已经用过了，但不是用在生殖细胞上，不是在胚胎、精子或卵子里面，而是用在患有白血病的儿童身上，去修正他们的白血病细胞。

And it's already been used, but not in in in the germline, not in in a sort of in an embryo or in sperm or eggs, but it's been used in in children to correct, leukemia, cells with leukemia.

对吧？

Right?

对。

Yeah.

这个挺复杂的，我尽量简单解释一下。

This is quite complicated, so I'll try and explain it simply.

所以大多数白血病都是由一种叫B细胞的细胞引起的，这些细胞本来是负责制造抗体的。

So most forms of leukemia are caused by cells called B cells as antibody making cells.

它们开始不受控制地分裂。

They start dividing out of control.

所以治疗的一种方法，是提取另一种免疫细胞，叫做T细胞，然后对它进行改造，让它去消灭那些B细胞。

And so one way of treating that, you can take another kind of immune cell called a T cell, and you can program that to go off and destroy those B cells.

这种方法叫做CAR-T疗法，在某些情况下效果非常好。

And that's known as CAR T therapy, and it it can work extremely well in some cases.

之前有个叫Alyssa的女孩，她得的是一种由T细胞引发的白血病。

Now this there was a girl called Alyssa, and now what she had was a form of leukemia caused by T cells.

所以，如果你改造T细胞去消灭T细胞，它们只会互相残杀。

So if you modify T cells to destroy T cells, they're just gonna kill each other.

是的

Yeah.

所以他们没法使用常规疗法。

So they couldn't use a standard therapy.

于是他们用了碱基编辑技术，改造了用来攻击B细胞的T细胞。

So what they did is they used base editing to change the T cells that they're using to kill the B cells.

他们修改了这些T细胞，让它们彼此不再识别为T细胞，也就不会互相攻击了。

They changed those T cells so they didn't recognize each other as T cells, and they didn't destroy each other.

Alyssa是在2022年接受治疗的，我几周前刚采访过她。

So Alyssa was treated in 2022, and I interviewed her just a few weeks ago.

事实上，她现在状态非常好。

In fact, she's doing she's doing really well.

完全没有复发的迹象。

No signs of recurrence.

太惊人了。

Amazing.

我们大多数人随着年龄增长都会担心记忆力下降。

Most of us worry about memory lapses as we age.

但你怎么知道这是否已经超出了正常范围？

But how do you know when it's something more serious?

在我们最新与《新科学家》合作的专题中，蒂姆·比恩兰医生帮你厘清了痴呆的迷思与科学事实。

You can explore this question in our latest newscientist collab feature where doctor Tim Beanland separates dementia myths from scientific facts.

他谈到了有望延缓阿尔茨海默病的突破性药物、简易指尖采血检测的前景，以及一个惊人的发现：全球近一半的痴呆病例其实可以通过调整生活方式来预防。

He discusses the breakthrough drugs showing promise in slowing Alzheimer's, the potential for simple finger prick diagnostic tests, and the incredible finding that nearly half the dementia cases globally could be prevented through lifestyle changes.

这是一份关于大脑健康的实用指南，绝对不容错过。

It's a road map for brain health, and you can't afford to miss it.

在新科学家官网搜索‘痴呆’，获取你所需的一切信息，或者访问 alzheimer's.org.uk。

Search dementia everything you need to know at newscientist.com or visit alzheimer's.org.uk.

本节目由阿尔茨海默病协会赞助播出。

This message was sponsored by the Alzheimer's Society.

关于这一点，其实并没有什么争议。

So there's not really any controversy around that.

当时只是修改了她的血细胞，特别是白细胞，并没有涉及她的生殖细胞或基因序列。

The edits were just being done on her blood cell, her white blood cells, and it wasn't in her germline, in her gene line.

所以对于这种方式，我们都觉得没问题。

So we're all happy with Yeah.

用这种方法来做，大家都能接受。

With that way of doing it.

那如果用这种精准的碱基编辑技术来处理胚胎呢？

What about using this precise base editing on an embryo?

嗯，这件事在美国已经有人做了。

Well, that's been that's now been done in The US.

不过得澄清一下，他们并没有制造出孩子。

This team they haven't created children, to be clear.

他们只是用了一些来自接受试管婴儿治疗的夫妇捐赠的胚胎进行测试。

They've just tested it on human embryos that were donated by parent, donated by couples, I should say, having IVF.

他们只是用这些胚胎来验证这种技术的效果如何。

They've just tested it on those embryos to see how well it works.

他们尝试了两种不同的修改。

And so they tried making two different changes.

其中一种修改导致了少数脱靶突变。

With with one of those changes, they got a few off target mutations.

也就是说，当他们想改变某个特定碱基时，有时会连带改变附近的碱基，结果就偏了目标。

That is the letter they when they try to change a specific letter, it sometimes change letters to either side of that target, so it went slightly off target.

而第二种修改，我做的那个，完全没有脱靶突变。

With the the second change I made that had no off target mutations.

那为什么一种有效，另一种却不行呢？

Now why why did it work in one case and not the other?

CRISPR的关键在于，蛋白质会和一种叫向导RNA的分子结合，正是这个向导RNA把蛋白质精准带到基因组上需要修改的位置。

So but the key thing with CRISPR is you have these sort of you the protein hooks up with what's called a guide RNA, and that guides the protein to the precise point in the genome that you want to change.

我觉得第一次的向导RNA设计得不够好，所以才出现了脱靶突变。

I think in the first case, their guide RNA was was not ideal, and that's why they've got some off target mutations.

如果你能把向导RNA设计得当，像第二次那样避免脱靶，那这种方法就很有希望解决中国那批孩子身上出现的大量非预期变异问题。

So if if you can get your guide RNAs right and you don't get these off target mutations as in the second case, then this is looking very promising for avoiding those issues we had with the the children in China where there are lots of undesired changes.

好的。

Okay.

这些胚胎大概处于什么阶段？

And what sort of age are these embryos?

它们应该是受精后几天的胚胎吧，具体能操作多久我也说不准。

They're they're probably I don't know what how many days you're allowed to muck around with the embryo.

是两个细胞的胚胎。

They were two cell embryos.

对，非常早期。

Oh, so very early on.

非常早期。

Very early

非常早期。

on.

非常早期。

Very early on.

是的。

Yes.

如果这个方法开始奏效，是不是意味着我们可以考虑对胚胎进行基因编辑，并让它们发育到足月？

So if if this is starting to work, does it suggest that we can start to think about making actually making edits and bringing these embryos to term?

不过还有另一个问题，就是在这些胚胎里，他们并不总能成功修改每一个细胞。

Well, there's another issue, and that is in in these embryos, they didn't always succeed in making the changes they wanted in every single cell.

所以为什么呢，

So why Of

是那两个细胞吗？

the two cells?

在那两个细胞的基础上，如果再往前发展一点的话，

Of the well, of the two cells and if they'd advance a bit further.

对。

Yeah.

那为什么这会是个问题呢？

So why why is that a problem?

所以你想想，假如你想要纠正一种遗传性疾病，你修改了胚胎，成功改变了部分细胞，但其他细胞没改到。

So you think about if suppose you were trying to correct a disease that someone might inherit, you edit the embryo, you succeed in making that change in some cells, but not in other cells.

这个胚胎后来发育成婴儿，成长为一个人。

That embryo then develops into a baby, into a person.

其中一些细胞带有修正后的基因。

Some of those cells will have that correction.

另一些则没有。

Some of them won't.

具体会怎样，取决于是什么病——他们可能还是会发病，那样你就失败了。

Now depending on what disease it is, they might still go on and develop that disease, and then you will have failed.

你的基因编辑算是失败了，因为胚胎并不是所有细胞都得到了修正。

Your your gene editing will have failed because you haven't got corrected it in all the cells of the embryo.

所以胚胎里部分细胞和另一些细胞不一样，这种情况叫嵌合体，这对基因编辑来说是个大问题，因为你根本没法提前知道它有没有发生。

So this issue of some cells in the embryo being different to the others is called mosaicism, and it's a big problem for gene editing applications because there's no way of telling if it's happened.

当父母有遗传病风险，做试管婴儿时，如果不涉及基因编辑，直接检测胚胎，那所有细胞的基因都应该是一致的。

So when people have been sort of if parents have a risk of passing on a disease and you do IVF and then you can test the embryo, if that embryo has come from there's no gene editing involved, then all those cells should be the same.

你可以从胚胎中取出单个细胞。

And you you can take a single cell from the embryo.

你可以对它进行检测，从而确定这个胚胎将来不会发育成患有该疾病的孩子。

You can test it, and you can be sure that child or that embryo will not develop into a child with the disease.

但如果你进行了基因编辑并且出现了嵌合现象，即使取出胚胎中的单个细胞，它也可能来自那个未被修正的部分。

If you're gene editing and you've got mosaicism, you can take a single cell from that embryo, but it might still The wrong part of the mosaic.

是的。

Yeah.

它可能是嵌合体中那个没被修正的部分，所以你无法确定。

It might be the wrong part of the mosaic, so you can't be sure.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这对基因编辑来说是个大问题。

So this is a huge problem for

所以我们必须解决嵌合问题，但我还不知道该怎么解决。

So so we have to solve the mosaic problem, but I don't know.

这其实并没有阻碍资金流入这个行业，对吧？

It's not really holding back the money the flow of money going into the industry, is it?

现在关于各种可能性的炒作和讨论非常多。

And there's a lot of hype and talk about what is possible.

为什么在这个非常早期的阶段就有这么多资金涌入呢？

Why is it all this money going in at this very early stage?

确实如此。

Yeah.

我是说，如果我是投资方面的专家，我就不会坐在这儿跟你聊这些了。

I mean, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you if I was an expert on investments and things like that.

不过我能说的是，辅助生殖治疗这行当规模非常大。

But but what I can say is is that fertility treatments are are it's a huge business.

我是说，我查了一下，全球每年这个市场的规模大概在四百亿美元左右。

I mean, globally, I I I checked it, and it's something like $40,000,000,000 a year around the world.

确实。

Yeah.

所以如果你能说服那些想当父母的夫妇，多花几千美元来编辑胚胎、获得一些额外的特性——我觉得很多父母确实希望这样——那这个市场潜力就非常大了。

So if you think and if you can add something on top of that that parents if, you know, you can persuade would be couples who want to be parents if you can persuade them to pay a sort of few thousand more dollars in order to edit an embryo and have something extra, which I think a lot of parents do want, then there's there's potential potentially huge market there.

我们先不谈这是否道德，但你得承认，现在听到的说法已经不止是‘让孩子更高’或‘更聪明’这么简单了。

Well, we'll get on to whether that's going let alone the morals of that, but whether the claims are going too far because, you know, you do start to hear about, not just have a taller child or have a more intelligent child.

不过这个我们待会儿再聊。

But we'll we'll get on to that in a sec.

那关于嵌合体这个问题，你有什么办法解决吗？

But what about how to get around this problem of the mosaic?

是的。

Yeah.

出现嵌合体的原因是，你把基因编辑工具注入的是已经受精的卵子，而它可能要等到胚胎开始分裂后才起作用。

So the reason why you get mosaicism is you put your gene editor into an egg after it's been fertilized, and it may not act until after the embryo starts dividing.

在最近这项研究里，胚胎其实已经分裂了，他们却还想在后期进行编辑。

Or in the case of this recent study, they would the embryo had already divided and now trying to edit it at a later stage.

所以要避免这个问题，最好的办法是在受精前直接编辑卵子或精子，这样修改就从一开始就存在，所有细胞都会包含这个改变。

So the way you can avoid that, if you can sort of gene edit the egg before it's fertilized or the sperm before fertilized, then that change is already there, and it's gonna be in all those cells.

目前我们还做不到这一点，但有一家公司刚刚宣布，他们成功从男性的睾丸中提取精原干细胞，并在实验室里将其培育成了精子。

Now we can't do that at the moment, but there's a company which has just announced that it succeeded in, taking sperm stem cells from people's testes and growing them into sperm in the lab.

如果这真的可行——当然我们目前还不确定是否属实。

Now if you can do that if that's true, and we don't know that it is yet.

他们还没有提供任何证据。

They haven't provided any evidence.

但如果这是真的，那么他们应该能够对这类精原干细胞进行基因编辑，从而制造出经过基因编辑的精子。

But if it's true, then they should be able to gene edit those sperm stem cells and create gene edited sperm.

当然，这样做也有合理的理由，因为这项技术可以用来治疗不孕不育。

And, of course, there's potentially a good reason for doing this because one one thing you could do with this would be to treat infertility.

有些男性因为基因突变导致无法产生精子，但他们的睾丸里仍然保留着精原干细胞。

So there's some men who have mutations that prevent any sperm developing, but they still have sperm stem cells in their testes.

所以理论上，我们可以把这些细胞取出来，进行基因编辑，让它们能够发育成精子，然后就能——

So, potentially, you can take those out, gene edit them so they can now turn into sperm, and you then Yeah.

拥有一个完全正常的孩子，只是纠正了导致父亲不育的那个基因突变。

Have a child that's completely normal except that you've corrected the mutation of causing infertility in the father.

是的。

Yeah.

正如你所说，这个市场非常庞大。

And as you say, the the market is huge.

我毫不怀疑这件事迟早会发生，因为会有巨大的压力推动它实现。

I've no doubt that this this will happen because there's a there will be a lot of pressure to do it.

而且，就像你提到的，一旦这项技术被用于治疗不孕症，它很可能会被挪作他用——没错。

And then, as you say, once that's dead for to to treat infertility, it can then be co opted for Exactly.

用于基因编辑。

For for gene editing.

我刚才浏览了一家美国公司的网站，他们做试管婴儿筛查，标语写着：‘生出你最好的宝宝。’

Was I just looking at a website for a US company offering IVF screening, and the tagline says, have your best baby.

科学驱动，爱来引导的现代育儿方式。

The modern way to plan and have a baby driven by science guided by love.

他们声称已经能够筛选出最理想的试管婴儿胚胎。

And they claim they came to be able to say they get the IVF embryo.

他们能检测多达两千种疾病，这已经很普遍了。

They can test it for 2,000 diseases, so that's quite common.

对。

Mhmm.

就是那种，你知道的，植入前遗传学检测。

That way of, you know, what's it, pre implantation genetic Testing.

是的。

Yeah.

检测。

Testing.

是的。

Yeah.

但他们还说，他们会检测眼睛颜色，因为你不想孩子有某种颜色。

But then they also say they they'll they'll test for eye color because you wouldn't want your child to have a certain color.

你知道，你可能希望孩子的眼睛是某种颜色。

You know, you might make you know, you want your child to have a certain color eyes.

身高、体重，甚至智商，他们都说能测。

Height and weight, even intelligence, they claim.

但这还不是基因编辑，只是胚胎筛选。

So this is not with gene editing yet.

这纯粹是胚胎筛选。

This is with embryo selection.

你看，需求确实是存在的。

So you can see the appetite is is there.

市场上确实有定制婴儿的需求。

There is this market for designer babies.

没错。

Absolutely.

胚胎筛选的选项其实很有限，因为女性通常能拿到的胚胎数量很少。

So embryo selection, the options because the women generally have very few embryos available to choose from, that what you can do with that is very limited.

当然，如果能进行基因编辑，选择的空间就会大得多。

Of course, if you can edit them, the options are gonna be much greater.

咱们先退一步，看看整体情况。

Let's step back and look at the bigger picture here.

想想我们是谁，本质上是什么，其实我们只是盲目进化的产品。

So if you think about who we are, you know, what we are, you know, we are these products of mindless evolution.

我们的基因组一团糟。

Our genomes are a complete mess.

我的意思是，它们大部分都是遗传寄生虫的残骸。

I mean, they, you know, they consist mostly of the rotting remains of genetic parasites.

我的意思是，这

I mean, it's just

你可别这么说，迈克尔。

Speak for yourself, Michael.

所以你知道吗？

They so you know?

而且我们通常觉得，孩子健康是理所当然的。

And it's also, you know, we tend to think, oh, it's normal to have healthy children.

这看起来是常态，但进化根本不是这么回事。

That's the norm, but evolution doesn't work that way.

进化根本不关心孩子是不是都健康快乐。

Evolution doesn't care if all children are not sort of healthy and happy.

如果从我们基因其实一团乱麻这个角度去看，我觉得未来使用基因编辑是必然的，而且迟早会变得很普遍。

So if you come at it from that perspective of, you know, we've got this sort of real mess of a genome, I do think that it's inevitable that we are gonna start to use gene editing in the future, and, fact, it's gonna become routine and and so on.

问题是，我们现在真到那一步了吗？

The question is, have we got to that point yet?

还差得远呢。

And I'd say not even close.

还差得远呢。

Not even close.

首先，就连想通过基因手段改善孩子健康这种事，我们对遗传变异的理解也还很有限。

To start with, you know, even the case of, like, trying to improve the health of our children, we don't have a great understanding of genetic variants at all.

所以，你可能改了一个基因，以为这样能让孩子更健康。

So, you know, there's a chance that you you sort of tweak a gene because you think it's gonna make your child healthier.

它可能会达到预期的效果，但也可能带来我们完全没料到的副作用。

It might have that desired effect, but it might also have some adverse consequence that we haven't anticipated at all.

对。

Yeah.

我们的基因组知识还处在非常初级的阶段。

I mean, we we've got really our understanding of the genome is in its infancy.

大多数基因变异，我们根本不知道它们有什么作用。

Know, You most genetic variants, we've got no clue what they do.

至于那些我们认为了解的，也只是基于统计研究——比如观察十万人，发现有这种基因变异的人，患心脏病的概率低百分之十。

And the ones that we do know what they do or we think they do, that's based on these sort of statistical studies where you sort of look at a 100,000 people and go, oh, well, if they've got this genetic variant, they've got sort of a ten percent less chance of developing heart disease.

这根本不是因果关系。

So it's not like a cause and effect at all.

这些统计结果，其实很可能并不准确。

These are you know, this is sort of, you know, statistics that could be wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

你可能是在说我们对遗传和发育的理解有局限，这确实是一个问题。

Maybe you're talking about the limitations of our knowledge of of genetics and development, but and that that's one objection.

对。

Yeah.

另一个问题是，这会导致人类出现两极分化，甚至可能演化出不同的人群——比如，假设你刚才说的那些问题都解决了。

The other objection, of course, is that this would lead to this two tier or or maybe even speciation amongst humans because rich people would be let's say we did solve all those problems you just say.

有钱人肯定会用这项技术，毕竟做这些基因调整成本太高了。

You know, rich people will avail themselves of this technology because it would be very expensive to do all this tweaking.

这样一来，孩子可能会携带一些基因，能让他们更不容易得某些病。

And then you do start to get you you would start to get children with genes, maybe protect them against certain diseases.

还能帮助他们更好地吸收营养。

It would help them with their nutrition.

再往后，说不定还会涉及智力之类的特质。

Maybe then maybe down the line, you get other things like maybe like intelligence or something.

但那些经过改造的孩子，可能就不愿意和未经改造的人繁衍后代了。

But then, you know, those children wouldn't want to mate with children who are unmodified.

所以就可能出现这种两级分化。

So you could get this two tier system.

这不仅是不平等问题，还有那个……

It's just the objection of inequality as well as the Yeah.

我的意思是，事情不一定非得这样。

I mean, it doesn't have to be that way.

比如说，英国就有国家医疗体系，我们可以参考这个模式。

I I mean, you know, we could have for example, we've got the national health system in The UK.

如果这个体系决定把这项技术纳入公共服务，那就能避免这种情况。

If that decided to offer this as a service, then you could potentially avoid that Mhmm.

不平等的问题。

Inequality.

我的意思是，是的，这种事可能要很久以后才会发生。

I I mean, yes, that could I think we're a long way from happening.

离真正实现还远着呢。

That's a long way from happening.

我的意思是，更现实的问题是，我们会开始出现这样的想法吗？比如希望孩子更聪明、更优秀，或者长得像某某人。

I mean, the more immediate thing is, you know, are we gonna get people going, oh, want to sort of, you know, have more intelligent children or smarter children or I want them to look like x.

作为父母，你真的会想要拥有这种程度的选择权吗？

I mean, can I mean, personally, as a parent, you're like, do you actually want to be have that degree of choice?

你能想象吗？有一天孩子跑来跟你说：‘我有金发蓝眼睛，但我更希望像妈妈一样，有棕色头发和棕色眼睛。’——你真想生活在一个需要做这种决定的世界里吗？

I mean, can you imagine your arguments that you go have a sort of like someone saying, you know, I've got blonde hair and blue eyes, but I wanted to have brown hair and brown eyes like mommy, and and you're gonna get these you know, do do you really want to be in that world and have those sort of choices to make?

我们现有的难题已经够多了，没必要再深入到孩子长什么样这种细节上去。

I I mean, we've got enough hard choices to make as it is without going into the nitty gritty of what our children are like.

是的。

Yeah.

咱们先把改造婴儿基因的事儿放一放，改天再说吧。

So let's let's leave genetic engineering of our babies for the for for another time, please.

是的。

Yeah.

这些都别提了。

None of that.

别提这个了。

None of that.

我们还没到那一步。

We're not there.

还没到那个阶段。

We're not there at the point.

是的。

Yeah.

这迟早会来，但希望至少还得等上一阵子。

It's this is it's gonna come, but hopefully not for Probably some time.

你那些基因编辑公司的投资，恐怕短期内别指望回本了。

Probably not soon enough to get your investment back on those gene editing companies that you might be tempted to invest in.

对。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

我们就说到这儿吧。

We'll leave it there.

这周就先这样了。

That's all for this week.

感谢我的嘉宾迈克尔·勒佩奇，也别忘了在你听播客的平台订阅我们。

Thanks to my guest, Michael Le Page, and do subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

我们很快再见。

We'll be back soon.

暂时再见。

Bye for now.