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你好。
Hello.
我是迈克尔·麦库兰。
I'm Michael McMullan.
欢迎收听WPBSA官方播客的新系列节目。
Welcome along to the start of a new series of the WPBSA official podcast.
每年这个时候，斯诺克圈子里的人最容易陷入回忆和怀旧，因为这时候大家都会想到我所说的‘斯诺克圣诞节’。
And, you know, if there's ever a time of year for snooker folk to get into nostalgia and history, this is it as all our thoughts turn to what I like to call snooker Christmas.
再过几天就是世锦赛了，而这项赛事辉煌的历史正是大卫·亨顿新书《金杯》的核心内容，本周我们请来了作者大卫。
It's time for the world championship in a few days from now, and so much of the great events glorious history forms the backbone for the new book, Pots of Gold, written by David Hendon, who joins us this week.
大卫，咱们先来澄清一个误区，其实这不过是斯诺克界众多误解中的一个。
And, Dave, let's start by clearing up a myth, one of many in the game, actually.
很多人说世锦赛始于1927年，但实际上，今年是第一届世锦赛对决一百周年的纪念年。
It's often said that the world championship began in 1927, but, actually, this year is the hundredth anniversary of the first World Championship match.
没错。
Indeed.
是的。
Yes.
因为那场比赛是在1926年11月开始的，不是连续两周打完的。
November 1926 because it wasn't played over a fortnight.
它是以一系列比赛的形式，持续了好几个月才完成的。
It was played as a series of matches over many months.
所以虽然赛事是在1927年结束的，但其实早在1926年就启动了。
So it the tournament ended in 1927, but it began in 1926.
而且那时候，这一切都是全新的。
And, obviously, it was all new.
实际上，那时候还不叫世界锦标赛。
Actually, it wasn't called the World Championship then.
当时就叫职业锦标赛。
It was just the professional the professional championship.
尤其是乔·戴维斯，他多年来一直努力推动设立正式的职业斯诺克锦标赛。
They lobbied for many years, Joe Davis in particular, to to get a a a professional snooker championship.
台球当时是最重要的台球类运动。
Billiards was the preeminent cue sports.
1927年乔·戴维斯在伯明翰赢得决赛时，那场比赛只是当晚台球活动结束后加插的一场。
And in the end of final which Joe Dobis won in Birmingham in 1927, it was actually just tacked on to the end of a night of billiards.
台球圈和Q体育圈根本看不到斯诺克的前景，他们只是觉得，好吧，让他们占几个小时玩玩，之后我们再回到正经项目上来。
Billiards community, the Q Sports community didn't see any future for snooker but they sort of thought, oh we'll let them have their little couple of hours, and then we'll get back to them to the proper stuff.
正如你在书中所提到的，戴夫，你也刚才说过，如今我们熟知的这项锦标赛，跟当年相比已经完全不一样了，根本认不出是同一个东西。
And as you outlined in the book, Dave, as indeed you've alluded to there, the championship as we know it now is just a million miles away from what it was like then, just completely and utterly unrecognizable from the sporting phenomenon we know today.
是的。
Yeah.
这背后当然有好几个原因。
And, of course, there's several reasons for that.
电视是主要原因，但另一个关键节点是亚历克斯·希金斯在1972年夺冠。
Television is the main one, but also a key moment was Alex Higgins winning in 1972.
那场比赛是在萨利公园英国军团俱乐部举行的。
That was played at the Sally Park British Legion.
我亲自去过那儿。
I actually went there.
现在那儿已经没了。
It's no longer there.
改成了办公楼和公寓楼。
It's just offices and apartments.
根本看不出来曾经有过什么，连个标记都没有，但那个地方特别重要，因为当时真有不少人专程去看亚历克斯·希金斯比赛。
You would never know, there's no sign that was ever there, but that actual location, very important because the crowds did come to see Alex Higgins.
1972年的那届锦标赛，其实断断续续打了一整年。
That tournament in '72 was played over a year.
比赛从1971年就开始了，但他夺冠之后，主办方一看，咦，公众对斯诺克还真有兴趣？
It started in '71, but he won it and promoters looked at it and thought, well, is a public appetite for snooker.
到了第二年，比赛就缩短成两周了。
And then the following year, it was played over a fortnight.
后来到了1977年，比赛搬进克拉伦斯，BBC也开始大力关注，这才慢慢形成了我们今天熟悉的这个锦标赛模样。
And, of course, eventually, when we got to the Crucible in '77 and the BBC started to take a lot more interest, you know, the tournament as we know it now took shape.
是的。
Yeah.
不过为了澄清一下，你说你去过苏利公园，不是指1972年吧？
Now just to clarify, when you say you went to Sully Park, you don't mean in 1972.
不过我们的合作方当时在场，就是我们的那位同事，他经常提起那段经历，说那是斯诺克历史上一个关键的时刻。
But our affiliate was there, of course, our our colleague, and he's often talked, you know, about the experience of being there for what was a pivotal moment, as you say, in snooker's history.
但说实话，斯诺克能从边缘走到台前，根本不是必然的。
But, you know, it wasn't inevitable that snooker was going to emerge from the shadows.
它在英国一直很受欢迎。
It was always played massively in Britain.
甚至在热潮兴起之前，就有人估计，英国 alone 就有大约三百万人经常打斯诺克。
It was estimated even before the boom began, there were already about 3,000,000 people in The UK alone who were playing snooker on a fairly regular basis.
但光有人玩，并不意味着它就能成为主流、大受欢迎。
But that didn't guarantee at all that snooker was ever going to become mainstream and big time.
真正让斯诺克走到今天这一步的，是几年间各种条件刚好凑在了一起。
It was a real coming together of circumstances over a period of a few years that paved the way for what we now know.
是的。
Yeah.
最关键的因素其实是电视，尤其是彩色电视。
I mean, the most important element was television, and and in particular, of course, color television.
我想很多人可能听说过这个故事，但如果你不知道的话，当年BBC二台开播、彩色电视服务启动时，他们正在找一些能突出彩色效果的节目，好吸引大家去买彩色电视机。
And I think people kind of know the story, but if you don't, when BBC Two launched and the color service launched, they were looking for programs that would showcase color and give people an incentive to buy a color television.
当时负责BBC二台的是大卫·阿滕伯勒。
David Attenborough was the controller BBC Two.
他拍板定了《波克·布莱克》这个节目。
He commissioned Pop Black.
当然，那和我们现在看到的《斯诺克锦标赛》完全不一样，那时候才半小时一集。
And of course that's nothing like Tornment Snooker we see now as a half hour programme.
它只是为了让斯诺克上电视的一个办法，但很快就火起来了。
It was just a way of getting snooker on the television, but it was really popular very quickly.
从那以后，一切就慢慢发展起来了。
And things went from there.
另外值得一提的是，当时 ITV 各地方台也播过不少斯诺克比赛，但后来爆出丑闻，原来为了凑时间，他们根本就是在操纵比赛结果。
I mean, it's worth saying as well, ITV in their regions at the time showed various snooker, but it was a big scandal because it turned out that actually to fit the sort of slot, they were just manipulating the matches.
在六十年代末、《Pop Black》开播前，斯诺克一度被人当成笑话。
And snooker at one point in the sort of late 60s, just before Pop Black actually, was seen as a bit of a joke.
《星期日泰晤士报》做过一次深入调查，揭露了大量比赛被操控，但球员根本没责任，他们只是按指示打球。
There was a big stink in the Sunday Times that did an investigation and all these matches have been manipulated, not the players fault, were just doing what they were told.
所以说，我们今天看到的斯诺克，和当初相比已经天差地别，而这一切，电视绝对是推动力。
So it's fair to say we've come a long way and television absolutely the driver of that.
某种程度上，我觉得斯诺克简直是完美的运动。
In some ways I think snooker is the perfect sport.
比赛场地大小正好适合电视屏幕的构图。
The playing area fits on the frame, on the television screen.
当然，我们现在已经明白，它不只是体育竞技的戏剧性。
And we've seen of course that it's not just about sporting drama.
它更是人性的戏剧。
It's about human drama.
我相信听这个节目的人根本不用我多说，但英国乃至后来更广地区的观众，确实是经过多年才意识到，这种比赛简直太吸引人了。
I'm sure people listening to this don't need to be told that, but but that's what the sort of nation British nation and eventually further afield kinda learned over the years that this is just compelling television.
我们最近刚去了曼彻斯特的巡回锦标赛，戴夫，那里所有比赛都是十九局十胜制，大家都说这是场马拉松式的耐力战。
And we've recently been to the Tour Championship in Manchester, Dave, where all the matches are best of 19, and people are talking about this as a marathon and long distance.
但其实，在克鲁西布时代之前，也就是这项运动的早期，比赛的局数要长得多得多。
But, actually, in those early years of the game, before the the the the crucible era, let's say, the matches were much, much, much longer.
这确实拖了这项运动的后腿，对吧？
And it really held the game back, didn't it?
因为当时对改变的抵触太强烈了。
Because there was so much resistance to change.
如果你还坚持打三十局、四十局这么长的比赛，根本不可能把它当成主流电视娱乐来推广。
And you couldn't possibly have sold it as a mainstream television entertainment while still pursuing this agenda of matches where the target was maybe 30 or 40 frames.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，很多人对这一点有点误解。
And it's also I think people slightly misunderstand.
比赛之所以那么长，是因为他们想卖尽可能多的票。
The reason they were long was because they wanted to sell as many tickets as they could.
他们想打上三周，好卖三周的票。
They wanted to play for three weeks to sell three weeks worth of tickets.
连没意义的局也要打完。
They play the dead frames.
有一年，他们甚至把每一局都打完了。
In fact, there was one year where they played out every frame.
哪怕你已经80比0领先，台面上还剩四个红球，你也会把剩下的局打完，就为了延长比赛时间。
Even if you're 80 nil up and there were four reds on, you would just play the rest of the frame just to sort of maximize the time that you could spend out there.
并不是因为他们觉得，赢70局才算真正的考验，所以比赛才那么长。
So it wasn't necessarily that the matches were massively long because they thought, oh it's a proper test if it's first 70.
真正的原因只是想多卖票，因为那是他们唯一的收入来源。
It was actually just to sell as many tickets as they could because that was the only source of revenue.
所以那个年代的球员看到现在打35局制，会觉得这算不上真正的考验。
And it's inevitable some of the players of that era then looked at, like, a best of 35 and thought, well, that's that's not a proper test.
但时代变了，潮流也变了，现在没人会这么看了。
But, you know, times change, fashions change, and and and no one would look at it now.
事实上，就连一些现在的球员也觉得比赛太长了。
In fact, some people, even players now, say it's too long.
是的。
Yeah.
那时候，上世纪七十年代末，斯诺克开始真正走进主流视野。
There there was an era then, you know, when the game did start to become very big in the mainstream in the late nineteen seventies.
那个年代有雷·里尔登、约翰·斯宾塞、亚历克斯·希金斯——你刚才提到的，还有特里·格里菲斯、克里夫·索本，这些人。
You've got an era of Ray Reardon, John Spencer, Alex Higgins, who you mentioned there, Terry Griffiths, Cliff Thorburn, guys like that.
我觉得可以说，他们的水平比之前任何一代都高得多。
They they were a good deal better, I think it's fair to say, in terms of their standard than what had gone before.
但跟八九十年代乃至今天相比，还差了一截。
And yet, not at the level that we were to see in the eighties and nineties and and into the present day.
不过，我们不妨称他们为里尔登一代，他们正好是承前启后的关键一代——从当年没人关注职业斯诺克的冷清时期，过渡到后来真正火爆的黄金年代。
But that Reardon generation, if we wanna call it that, they were the bridge between the sort of low key era when nobody really knew what was going on in professional snooker and the years when it it really did hit a boom time.
是的。
Yeah.
在他去世前，我有幸对他进行了长时间的采访。
And I was very fortunate to interview Ray at length before he passed away.
那天我们在他的高尔夫俱乐部度过了非常愉快的一天，他当时是俱乐部的主席，完全如鱼得水。
It was a great day we had down there at his golf club, and he was absolutely in his element down there, the president of the club.
大家都围着他转，对他言听计从。
He everybody wrapped around the palm of his fingers.
太棒了。
Was brilliant.
有意思的是，他直到三十多岁才转为职业选手。
And so interesting about, I mean, didn't turn pro to his thirties.
所以当人们比较不同时代时，我觉得这不太公平，因为他当时能向谁学习呢？
So when people compare eras, I think it is unfair because who did he have to learn from?
那时候根本看不到斯诺克的电视转播。
He didn't have snook on television to watch.
他当然在威尔士的联赛体系和业余圈子里打过球。
He played obviously in the league's system in in Wales and in the amateur scene.
但真正提升水平的，是竞争。
But what drives up standard is competition.
他刚转职业的时候，那些人其实都是真职业选手。
There were when right turn pro, they're right professionals.
但那时候的竞争没那么激烈。
So it wasn't that competitive.
他在那个时代最终成了最出色的那一个。
He turned out to be the best of them in his era.
能做到这一点，就已经足够了。
That's all you can ask to be.
不过那些先驱者——斯宾塞、希金斯、里德恩，尤其是70年代这三位，真正为斯诺克奠定了方向。
But those guys, pioneers, Spencer, Higgins, Reardon, those three in particular in the 70s really set snook on its course.
后来当然还有特里·格里菲斯崭露头角。
Then of course Terry Griffiths coming through.
1979年那会儿太关键了，他第一次参加世锦赛就夺冠，这让所有业余选手都意识到：特里刚转职业就能赢下最高赛事，我们为什么不行？
That was massive in '79 because when he won the World Championship at his first attempt, it said to all the amateurs in the game, well Terry's just turned pro and can win the biggest tournament, why can't we?
这确实推动了斯诺克的发展，更多职业选手涌现，整体水平也因此提升。
And that definitely moved the sport forward because more professionals came through, and then the standard went up as a result.
接着，史蒂夫·戴维斯把标准又推高了一截。
And then, of course, Steve Davis, raised the bar.
是的。
Yeah.
你书里有一章叫《同袍》，讲的是史蒂夫在转职业三年后就拿下世界冠军，还有巴里·赫恩。
Well, you have a chapter in the book called Brothers in Arms, and it's about Steve who became world champion in 1981, only three years after he turned pro, and, of course, Barry Hearn.
我甚至敢说，他们两人共同塑造了斯诺克历史上最具影响力的局面。
I would go so far as to say that they are, between them, possibly the two most influential figures in snooker history.
如果非得挑出一个最具影响力的人物，那肯定是史蒂夫。
And I guess, in a sense, if you're looking for the single most influential figure, it's gotta be Steve.
因为没有史蒂夫，巴里根本不会涉足斯诺克。
Because without Steve, Barry doesn't get involved in snooker.
当然，多年后我们都知道，巴里接管了这项运动，让它重焕生机，才有了今天的局面。
And, of course, as we know many years later, Barry took over the game and revived it and brought it to where it is now.
但早在上世纪八十年代，我们就说那是一个新时代的开端，他的理念和竞争精神把水平推上了一个新高度，这也是为什么雷在七十年代能如此成功、长期统治的原因。
But even back in the nineteen eighties, we talk about that reared an era, and his thinking on the game, his competitiveness really did take things on a level, and that was why Ray had so much success and dominated the seventies.
而史蒂夫彻底改变了人们对这项运动的看法，尤其是对职业斯诺克选手的生活方式和职业路径的理解。
But Steve completely reshaped how people saw the game, and in particular, how they saw the life and the career of a professional snooker player and how you needed to go about it.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，我之前有幸采访过约翰·维尔戈，就在他去世前。
And, I mean, John Virgo said again, I was lucky to speak to to JV before he passed away.
他说，其他选手看到史蒂夫，都意识到有些东西不一样了。
He said, you know, the other players looked at Steven, and and they realized something had changed.
这个人是真把斯诺克当职业来干的，晚上从不去酒吧。
You know, this was somebody who was treating it as a profession who was, he wasn't in the bar at night.
他也不会早上十一点才起床。
He wasn't sort of getting up at eleven in the morning.
他把斯诺克当成一份正经职业来对待，就像其他顶级运动一样。
He was treating it as a profession like you would any other top level sport.
当然，我们还提到过亚历克斯·西金斯，他吸引了一大批工人阶级观众，带来了特定的观众群体。
And of course, what he also did, we talked about Alex Siggins who brought a real sort of working class audience and a particular kind of audience.
而史蒂夫则带来了另一面。
Steve brought the other side.
他吸引的是更体面的观众群体——中产阶级、家庭，还有许多女性。
Steve brought the, if you like the respectable audience, he brought the middle class audience, families, a lot of women as well.
这反过来又让来自不同领域的赞助商开始关注斯诺克。
And that in turn convinced sponsors from maybe a different sphere to get involved in snooker.
其实回过头看，八十年代虽然还有吸烟这些情况，但整体氛围已经很干净了。
It was the 80s actually, if you look back at it, okay, it was smoking and all that, but it was quite sanitized.
他们有意让这项运动显得更友好、更包容。
They made an effort to actually make the sport welcoming.
而当时英格兰的足球正深陷流氓行为的泥潭，声誉也大不如前。
And of course, against the backdrop of football in England at the time, which was sort of riven with hooliganism and had fallen out of favor a little bit.
斯诺克填补了当时国民对体育和电视节目的巨大空白。
Snooker filled a massive gap in the sort of national consciousness in terms of sport and indeed television.
而史蒂夫正是那个象征性的人物。
But Steve was the talisman as that.
虽然亚历克斯·希金斯在另一方面影响深远，但史蒂夫正好平衡了这一切。
And as much as Alex Higgins was very influential on one side of the coin, Steve balanced it out.
老人们都喜欢史蒂夫。
Nams love Steve.
我奶奶特别喜欢史蒂夫·戴维斯。
My nan love Steve Davis.
她都管他叫‘我的史蒂夫’。
She called him my Steve.
因为他形象干净利落。
He was because he was clean-cut.
他做什么都得体到位。
He did everything right.
说大家不喜欢这种风格，其实是个误会。
And it's a bit of a myth that people don't like that.
实际上，很多人还挺喜欢这样的。
Actually, a lot of people do like that.
他真是个了不起的象征人物。
And he was an incredible talisman.
再加上巴里一直支持他，你知道吧，史蒂夫根本不在乎钱。
And, of course, with Barry backing him, you know I mean, Steve never cared about money.
这话是巴里说的。
Barry said that.
巴里确实这么说过。
Barry did, by the way.
两人合作，赚了不少钱。
And and and and made them both a lot of it.
不过，说真的，他们真是绝配。
But, yeah, it was a dream partnership.
这简直就是斯诺克界的列侬和麦卡特尼，两人在台面上和台面下都是八十年代的王者。
It was sort of the Lennon and McCartney of snooker, really, and and the two of them, they were the kings of the eighties on and off table.
是的。
Yeah.
在社交媒体还没出现、还没彻底改变人类生活方式的那些年，粉丝来信可是主流。
And, you know, in the days before social media came along and just changed humanity, basically, fan mail was the thing back in the nineteen eighties.
每年世锦赛期间，BBC都会收到成堆的信件、明信片和贺卡，都是寄给选手们的，他们甚至专门统计数量。
And the BBC, during the World Championship, used to get loads and loads of letters and postcards and greetings cards sent to the players, and they actually used to keep a tally.
每届比赛结束，他们还会公布一份排名，看看谁收到的粉丝来信最多。
And they would publish a ranking list at the end of which players had got the most.
史蒂夫在我们这儿永远是第一名。
Steve was always number one on us.
但确实有种说法，说他不受欢迎。
But so there's this notion that he was unpopular.
我觉得真相是，有很多人不喜欢他，但那些人声音更大。
I think the real truth of it was that there were a lot of people who didn't like him, and they were a lot more vocal.
史蒂夫其实拥有更多的粉丝。
Steve had a lot more fans.
只是他们平时不太爱发声而已。
They were just a lot quieter about us.
对，他还拿过年度最佳运动员奖。
Well, he won sports personality of the year Yeah.
要知道，这可不是什么容易做到的成就。
Which, you know, was was no no mean feat.
我觉得他有一段时间，排名一直保持在前三，比任何人都多。
And I think we I think he finished at one point, he finished in the top three more than anyone else.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，
I mean,
他经常上电视。
he was on he was on TV.
八十年代时，他的名字被提及的次数比任何人都多，甚至超过了首相撒切尔夫人。
It it was said more than anyone else in the eighties, including Margaret Thatcher, the prime minister.
所以，没错，他曾经一度是英国收入最高的运动员。
So, yeah, he was and at one point, he was the highest paid sports person in Britain.
说实话，现在人们看他上电视，总觉得他把一切都轻描淡写，史蒂夫就是这性格。
I mean, he I think people now because, obviously, you see him on TV now, he plays everything down, Steve.
你知道的。
You know?
他这个人一向面无表情，后来还转战音乐圈，做起DJ来，完全换了个领域。
He's he that's his his personality, he's deadpan obviously he's gone into his music, he's DJing as well, so a completely different sphere.
我们不该忘记他有多大的影响力，他不仅影响了史蒂芬·亨德利——不是教他怎么打球，而是教他怎么做人。
We shouldn't forget how influential he was and of course he influenced not only Stephen Hendry in terms of not necessarily how to play but how to conduct yourself.
还有罗迪·奥沙利文、约翰·希金斯、马克·威廉姆斯，他们小时候都把他当偶像。
Also Roddy O'Sullivan, John Higgins, Mark Williams watching as boys, they all looked up.
整个那一代人，包括我们，都是看着他长大的。
All that generation, we're part of it, looked up to Steve.
斯诺克就这么打。
This is how you play snooker.
成功就是这么来的。
This is how you're successful.
当然，过去这十年里，整体水平也明显提高了。
And, of course, we've therefore seen standards, you know, in the decade since go up as well.
时代真是一直在变，是不是啊，戴夫？
It's funny how things move on, isn't it, Dave?
现在恐怕在英国电视上，出镜率比基尔·斯塔默还高的人，就数你了。
Because probably nowadays, the only person on British television more than Keir Starmer is you.
咱们这不正聊着呢嘛。
Here we are discussing it.
我觉得我们这一代人，确实就是这么过来的。
But I I do think that we are part of that generation.
你和我，戴夫，简直就是八十年代的典型代表。
And you and I, Dave, are the ultimate nineteen eighties cliches.
我们那会儿赶上下班后电视上老播斯诺克，家家都买个小台球桌，一玩就停不下来。
Kids who got into snooker when it was on TV all the time, got our little junior snooker tables, and off we went.
这么多年过去了，我们俩还一直深陷在这项运动里。
And here we are all these years later, still very much involved in the game.
我总跟比我们年轻的人说——现在几乎人人都比我们年轻——你没法让他们明白，八十年代斯诺克有多火。
I always say to people who are younger than us, which is pretty much everyone now, you you cannot convey anyone who wasn't around in the eighties how colossal snooker was at that time.
不过我觉得，你在书里确实把这点讲得挺到位的。
But I think in the book, you've actually done a pretty good job of that.
你写的时候，是特别想让没经历过那个年代的人感受到它的分量吗？
Was that something you were really trying to put across to people who weren't there to see it?
那时候，在这片地方，斯诺克的影响力真的大到离谱。
This is how enormous snooker was, in this part of the world in the nineteen eighties.
确实如此。
Very much so.
对。
Yeah.
你说得对。
I mean, you're right.
你看亚历克斯·希金斯，他当时因为头撞裁判被处罚，结果他上了沃根访谈秀——那可是BBC一频道黄金时段每周播三次的热门节目。
I mean, when Alex Higgins when he he was on a disciplinary headbutting, the tournament director, and then the way the punishment was announced, he went on the Wogan chat show, which is a big big deal on the it was three times a a week on BBC one primetime.
那时候斯诺克的影响力就是这么大。
That's how big snooker was.
我们现在公布一个处罚决定，都得上那种最火的节目才行。
You know, we went and announced a disciplinary result on it'd like the one show now, basically.
对。
Yeah.
我想特别说明一下八十年代的情况，因为斯诺克那么火，它早就渗透到其他文化领域了。
I wanted to, particularly in the eighties, you know, explain how other parts of the culture, because snooker was so popular, took bits of it.
比如音乐里有斯诺克主题的歌，拍过斯诺克题材的电影，还进了情景喜剧，连周六早上的儿童节目里都常有斯诺克选手出现——那种节目现在早就没了，但那时候几乎每周都有。
So, obviously, you know, snooker loopy in terms of music, there were films about snooker, it got into sitcoms, it got into, Saturday morning kids TV, which again doesn't exist now, but there'd be a snooker player on most weeks.
各种你想不到的节目都会请斯诺克选手，因为他们本身就是流行文化的一部分。
There'd be a snooker player on all sorts of programs that you wouldn't expect because they were part of culture.
那时候的情况，现在的人可能很难想象，足球曾经一度这么不受欢迎。
And were again, it'd be difficult for people who maybe weren't around then to understand football had fallen out of favor in a big way.
有一年，电视台根本没跟任何机构签转播协议，一场比赛都没播。
In fact, was one year where there was no deal struck with the TV companies to show any.
于是斯诺克填补了这个巨大空缺，而且像我说的，看斯诺克很安全，不可能闹出乱子。
So snooker filled a big gap and as I say, was safe, there was not going to be any riots at the snooker.
去看斯诺克，你根本不用担心出什么问题。
There were not, you wouldn't be in any trouble at the snooker.
正如克莱夫·爱佛顿说的，蜜月期总不会一直持续。
Obviously, as Clive Everton said, you're not on honeymoon forever.
它不可能永远保持那样的热度，但确实为后来的发展埋下了种子。
It was never gonna last at that level, but it it planted the seeds for what has come.
当然，之后发生的变化是，这项运动变得越来越国际化。
And, of course, what's happened since is we've become far more international.
八十年代的时候，斯诺克基本上还是个英国故事。
It was very much a British story really in the eighties.
情况已经不一样了。
That has changed.
对。
Yeah.
戴夫，我得纠正你一件事。
I gotta pull you up on one thing there, Dave.
你说斯诺克在音乐方面很疯狂。
You said snooker loopy in terms of music.
我觉得这个说法实在有点牵强。
I think that's way too much of a stretch.
嗯，我确实这么说过。
Well, I've been Yeah.
很多人都这么觉得，因为那首歌当年一度冲到流行榜第六名，对咱们这代人以下的年轻人来说，可能根本没法理解这有多了不起。
The well, so did a lot of people because famously, it got to number six in the pop charts, which, again, for people younger than us, I have no idea what a big deal that was
对。
Yeah.
四十年前的事，我们现在聊的就是这个。
Forty years ago, which is what we're now talking about.
有意思的是，你刚才提到了儿童电视节目。
And funny enough, you mentioned Kids TV there.
我还记得1986年世锦赛开赛那天早上的场景。
I actually remember the opening morning of the nineteen eighty six World Championship.
我猜那段节目是提前录好的。
I'm assuming it was prerecorded.
丹尼斯那天早上本来要开始卫冕之战，对手是迈克·哈莱特，但他那天一早却上了儿童节目。
Dennis, obviously, that morning was starting his defense of the title against Mike Hallett, but he appeared on Kids TV that morning.
有意思的是，他当时跟一个英国小孩对打，解说员还说这孩子将来肯定能成大明星。
And funny enough, he was playing against a kid who was was British, but they were talking about him as, oh, this guy's gonna be a big star in the future.
但我之后再也没听说过这个人，其实他祖籍是中国的。
Now I never heard of him again, but he was actually of Chinese origin.
所以那时候的预测还挺准的，是吧。
So it was actually quite prescient Yeah.
就这件事来说。
In terms of what happened here.
那天早上，第四十二层的那些人也都是节目的嘉宾。
Level forty two were were also among the guests on the program that morning.
所以这些
So These
这些都是没人认识的名字。
these are all names that that nobody knows.
不过嘛，你也不用非得翻出这些旧人来。
But, anyway, well, you you don't have to dredge them up.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
那就是我们当时所处的时代。
But that was the era we we were in.
你刚才提到了克利夫，其实。
And, you know, you mentioned Clive there, actually.
我想稍微聊一下他，因为我想提这件事。
I'm gonna talk about him for a moment because I wanted to bring this up.
他是这项运动里真正的巨人，以后再也不会有像克利夫这样的人了。
An an absolute giant of the game, we'll never see the like of Clive again.
这一点我们可以完全肯定。
We can absolutely say that.
不过你为这本书采访了他很多次。
But you interviewed him quite a lot for the book.
从某种意义上说，戴夫，克利夫对斯诺克最后的贡献，就是接受这本书的采访。
And in a sense, Dave, that was Clive's last contribution to snooker, was being interviewed for this book.
这些话就是他最后的遗言，这位见证了所有、始终身处中心的人留下的。
So these were his his final words, the man who had been there to see it all and be at the center of it.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实值得提一提。
I mean, it's worth saying.
当然，克莱夫自己也写过斯诺克的历史。
Of course, Clive written his own histories of snooker.
我做这本书的初衷是，克莱夫的书内容非常详尽，也特别出色，但里面缺少其他人的声音。
What I wanted to do with this book is I mean, Clive's books are very detailed and and and, you know, terrific, but they didn't have any other voices in them.
我想尽量收录更多亲历者的趣闻，尤其是那些世界冠军们。
What I wanted was to have as many anecdotes from people who had who had been there, particularly world champions.
其实我最初想做的时候，是打算聚焦在世锦赛上，但出版方希望内容更偏向于整体历史。
I mean, when the book was first when I first thought of it, it was gonna be more about the world championship, but the publisher wanted it to be more general history.
所以，说实话，谈到历史，克莱夫肯定是第一人选，可惜在本书撰写和出版期间，我们失去了太多那个时代的传奇人物——雷、J.V.、特里、格里菲斯，还有其他几位。
So yeah, obviously Clive is kind of the first person you go to really for history, because sadly in the course of the book being written and coming out, we've lost so many of the giants of that time, Ray, JV, Terry, Griffiths, various others as well.
那个年代的人，现在剩下的已经不多了。
That kind of generation, there's not that many of them to go to now.
因此，我特别庆幸在写作过程中，能有机会采访到这么多位前辈。
So I'm really pleased I had the opportunity to speak to so many of them in the course of writing it.
是的，克利夫一向很擅长用一句精辟的话，就把某个瞬间精准地抓住。
Yeah and obviously, Clive's always been really good at just crystallizing you know, a moment with just a really intelligent comment.
不是那种动不动写两千字的长篇大论。
It's not like 2,000 words of anecdote.
就几句话而已，但恰恰是最需要的，对这本书特别有帮助。
It's actually a couple of sentences, which is all you need, and and and they they were very valuable for the book.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
克利夫 famously 到七十多岁才学会打字，所以他根本不可能写两千字的长篇内容。
Well, Clive famously didn't learn to type until he was in his seventies, so there's no way he was ever gonna do 2,000 words on anything.
不过咱们聊聊怎么写出关于1985年黑球决赛的那一章吧，还得避开那些年复一年被人说烂了的老生常谈。
But let's talk about the impossible feat of getting a full chapter, about the nineteen eighty five Blackball final without just saying a million things that have been said, you know, over and over again down the years.
说来有趣，我觉得那一章反而是我最喜欢的部分，本来我以为这章最不可能写好，毕竟那场比赛和那届锦标赛，早被说遍了。
Funnily enough, I would actually say it was my favorite chapter in the book, and I would have thought it was the least likely one because you would have thought there's nothing left to say about that match in that championship.
但我觉得你做到了，戴夫，你真的为这个被讲了四十遍的故事带来了许多新的视角。
But I think you you managed to do that, Dave, and I I think you managed to bring, you know, many new angles actually to a story that's been told a million times over the last forty years.
谢谢夸奖。
Well, thank you.
这是我写的第一个章节，因为我有了一个想法。
It's actually the first chapter I wrote because I had an idea.
它的写法和其他章节有点不一样。
It's slightly different to the other chapters be just the way it's written.
而且整体用了很多现在时，就是想让读者感觉身临其境。
It's quite a bit sort of present tense as well, trying to sort of bring people into as if they're in the moment of it.
我采访了丹尼斯和史蒂夫，所以你已经拥有了这两位当事人的叙述。
I mean, I'd interview Dennis and Steve, so you've already got the two competence involved.
巴里当然也很棒，他当时也在现场。
Barry is always good, obviously he was there.
特雷弗·伊斯特，他当时负责解说，就是丹尼斯在结尾时朝他晃手指的那个人。
Trevor East, who was, always calling the waggy, he was the person who Dennis was wagging his finger at the end.
约翰·维戈是第一个在史蒂夫·戴维斯输球后去更衣室见他的记者。
John Virgo, who went to his first person to see Steve Davis in his dressing room after the defeat.
所以当时这些人物都在场。
So all these sort of characters were there.
那时候正是斯诺克热潮的顶峰，你知道的。
And I wanted to, that was the zenith of the snooker boom, okay?
那绝对是巅峰时刻，收视人数高达一千八百五十万。
That was the absolute peak, obviously eighteen point five million.
我想聊聊当时还发生了哪些其他事情。
I wanted to talk about what else was happening at the time.
那一年在英国文化上，方方面面都很重要。
It was a big year in a lot of ways in British culture in particular in The UK.
然后我想探讨一下，为什么我们到现在还在谈论它。
And then I wanted to just talk about why why we still talk about it.
为什么我们至今仍然在谈论它。
Why why we still talk about it.
而且很多事我其实最近才想起来，虽然我也没闲着，但最近我重新看了决赛的第三阶段，那部分你从来都没提过。
And so much of it I mean, I actually recently, not that I've got time on my hands, but actually recently, the the third session of the final isn't you never really talked about.
我回去翻了翻，因为YouTube上能看得到。
I went back and sort of looked at it because it's on YouTube.
说真的，戴尼斯·泰勒本该轻松赢下那场决赛的。
The fact is Dennis Taylor should have won that final really easily.
史蒂夫·戴维斯第二天完全不在状态。
Steve Davis on the second day was all over the place.
但说来讽刺，他下午靠几杆黑球偷下几局，才勉强没被拉开。
But he actually, ironically, he stole a few frames on the black in the afternoon to keep in touch.
其实戴尼斯明显是更强的选手，但最后还是靠那个戏剧性的结局定了胜负。
But, actually, Dennis was by far the better player, but, obviously, it came down to the dramatic finish.
我觉得这场比赛的结局太经典了，大概会永远被记住为史上最著名的收官时刻，所以值得专门写一章，讲清楚为什么它这么特别，尽量把背景说全。
And I think because it's not gonna go away as probably the most famous, you know, finish, the most famous match ever, it was worth doing a chapter on it just to explain why and and to put try and put it in as much context as possible.
史蒂夫对这事的态度特别坦然。
Steve was very good about it.
你知道吧？
You know?
他已经放下了这一切。
He's made peace with it all.
毕竟你拿过六次冠军，确实能做到。
I suppose when you've won six of them, you can.
要是他从来没赢过，可能就没那么容易释怀了。
If he'd never won it, it might be more difficult.
丹尼斯早就习惯谈论这件事了。
Dennis is very practiced at talking about it.
但要采访特雷弗、约翰·维戈这些人的看法，材料实在太多了，光是聊这个就足够撑起一章。
But to get the perspectives of people like Trevor and and and John Virgo and and Barry was meant there was a lot of material, I think, to just to talk about it.
是的。
Yeah.
这可不只是台球比赛那么简单。
I mean, it wasn't just a snooker event.
这不仅仅是一场体育赛事。
It wasn't just a sporting event.
这实际上是英国文化中的一个重大时刻。
It was a huge moment in, the culture of of the British nation, really.
像我这样的人，或许对它有更深的体会，因为上世纪八十年代，我的家乡北爱尔兰正经历着非常糟糕的状况。
And, you know, I I think people like me have maybe an extra layer of perspective on it because, again, something that was very big in the nineteen eighties was the terrible situation we had in my home country of Northern Ireland.
所以，你无法想象，当像丹尼斯这样的人，还有三年前的亚历克斯赢得这些大赛时，家乡的人们有多激动。
So, you you know, I cannot tell you what it meant back home when people like Dennis and indeed Alex three years earlier were winning those those those big events.
所以，这件事背后还有这一层意义。
So there was all that aspect to it as well.
我想念一段来自那章的文字。
And there's one chap passage I want to read from that chapter, actually.
讲的是1985年决赛，尤其是那场著名的夜晚，四十年前现场那千名幸运观众是如何看待那场巅峰对决的。
It's about, you know, the way that 85 final and the climax of it was seen by the public, and in particular, the thousand or so who were lucky enough to be there on that famous night forty one years ago.
让我念给你听。
So here's how it goes.
观众们既感到震惊，又充满共鸣。
The audience are both amazed and empathetic.
我们谁没在追求目标的过程中犯过错呢？
Haven't we all messed up at some point in pursuit of our goals?
很明显，泰勒得到了绝大多数人的支持。
It's clear that Taylor is getting the majority of the support.
这里的人见过戴维斯赢过好几次，对他充满敬意。
The people here have seen Davis win several times and have every respect for him.
但英国到处都是被政客和经济困境压得喘不过气、社会分裂中挣扎的小人物。
But Britain is full of underdogs who feel trodden down by politicians and economic strife, fracturing of society.
而在泰勒身上，他们看到的正是那种可能逆袭、绝处逢生的普通小人物。
And in Taylor, they see a quintessential little guy who might, just might, triumph against the odds.
戴夫，你读到这儿可能会想，他是不是有点夸大其词了。
Now anyone reading that, Dave, might think, oh, he's stretching us.
他好像在强行构建一个叙事，暗示人们对那场比赛的感受比实际情况要深刻得多。
He's trying to force a narrative and trying to suggest that there was much more going on in people's perception of that match than was really there.
但说实话，这根本不算夸大其词。
But, honestly, it's not pushing things at all.
那场决赛中，这一点非常关键。
That was a big element of that final.
正如你所说，史蒂夫是个高高在上、神秘莫测的传奇人物。
The fact that Steve, as you say, was this untouchable, unknowable icon.
丹尼斯当时三十多岁，在那个年代，对于一个职业选手来说，这年龄已经算很大了——他过去十年才拿过一次大赛冠军，而且心态和打法也完全不一样。
Dennis was a a guy in his mid thirties, which at the time was was considered quite old for a sports person who had won one big title before in a decade or so as a professional and had a completely different outlook and approach.
所以你这么一说，我真心觉得，这正是那场决赛被如此广泛讨论、至今仍让人难忘的主要原因。
So the way you've put it there, I I genuinely think that was a huge part of why that final was talked about so much and still resonates today.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得关键在于，如果史蒂夫赢了，其他一切都没变，那这场决赛就不会这么令人印象深刻。
I think I think the point is if Steve had won if if everything had played out the same way, but it was Steve who had won, it would not be as memorable.
丹尼斯·泰勒出生于1949年，那时战争刚结束，社会上正弥漫着团结一心的精神。
Dennis Taylor was born in 1949, so he was born after the war when there was a great spirit of pulling together.
但到了80年代，实际上整个国家正在分崩离析，社会充满分裂，刚经历过矿工罢工，那是个极度分裂的年代，伤痕至今都没愈合。
But by the time of the 1980s, actually the country was pulling itself apart, there was division, just had the miners strike and it was a time of division, which has never really been healed.
当时有暴乱，有经济困境，有富人，也有穷人。
There were riots, there was economic strife, there were the haves, have nots.
很多人觉得，人生就是命定的，没什么好改变的。
A lot of people thought that life was kind of inevitable.
你生来就在你的位置上，就这样了。
You you you're in your place, that was it.
所以大家觉得史蒂夫一定会赢，因为他向来都是赢家。
So Steve's gonna win because Steve always wins.
戴尼斯赢了，反而让人感到振奋，因为这说明了，不可能的事真的可能发生，意想不到的结果真的会出现。
Dennis winning, I think, actually was inspirational in as much as actually this, the unlikely can happen, the impossible can happen.
他看起来像体育界的冠军吗？
He didn't look like a sporting world champion, did he?
戴尼斯·泰勒戴着眼镜，一副普通人的样子，可他偏偏赢了。
Dennis Taylor with his glasses and all the rest of it, but he won it.
我觉得你说得对，人们确实情感上认同这种信念——普通人也能赢，命运并非注定被碾压。
And I think that definitely what you say is true, that definitely people are invested emotionally in that idea that the little guy can win and it's not just inevitable that you'll be trodden down.
这正是体育的魅力所在，我真替那些不喜欢体育的人感到遗憾，他们错过了生活本身。
And that's the thing like sport, I feel sorry for people who don't like sport because they don't know what they're missing out on, is life actually.
你可以像接触艺术与文化一样，从体育中获得启发。
You can learn it's like, you know, the arts and culture.
通过你对体育的反应，你能深刻地认识自己，从中汲取很多东西。
You can learn so much about yourself through how you react to sport and what you can take from it.
那不仅仅是一场戏剧性收尾的斯诺克比赛。
And so it wasn't just another snooker match that finished dramatically.
它还承载了更多深层的意义。
There was there was a lot of other elements as well.
是啊。
Yeah.
挺有意思的。
It's funny.
我记得那时候我们俩做的那个播客。
I remember the podcast you and I were doing at the time.
我记得在疫情期间说过，我常常好奇没有体育的生活会是什么样子。
I remember saying something during COVID, about how I'd often wondered what a life without sport would be like.
当然，六年前，我们确实经历了好几个月这样的日子。
And, of course, six years ago, for a number of months, we got to find out.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
不过说到1985年，我知道我们反复提这个，但我觉得它确实是这本书里特别重要的一部分。
But, you know, another thing about '85, and I know we're we're laboring it, but I I do think it is, you know, a a massive part of the book.
我当时谈到丹尼斯在家赢得冠军带来的影响。
I was talking there about the impact of Dennis winning the championship back home.
我从小看的报纸是《爱尔兰时报》，那是爱尔兰一个非常重要的媒体，到现在依然非常有影响力。
Now the newspaper I grew up with was the Irish Times, you know, a huge institution in Ireland, and and it's still very much going strong today.
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这是《爱尔兰时报》历史上第一次为了报道决赛和丹尼斯夺冠而暂停印刷。
It was the first time in the history of the Irish Times that the presses were held was to to carry the report on the on the final and and Dennis winning us.
但那只是在爱尔兰的情况。
But that was just in Ireland.
你知道，在英国，那可是个大得多的国家。
You know, in Britain, which obviously is a much bigger country.
我老是提到这一点。
Again, I keep coming back to this.
你根本没法让别人明白，那时候斯诺克在媒体上有多火，所有大赛有多受重视。
You cannot convey to people how big snooker was in the media and how big a deal all the big tournaments were.
那时候只有六个排名赛。
There were only six ranking events at that time.
全都安排在英格兰举行。
They were all played in England.
BBC、ITV和第四频道都给了它们空前的报道力度。
They were all given colossal coverage on either BBC or ITV in conjunction with channel four.
但还不只是这样。
But it wasn't just that.
我的意思是，就算你没看电视转播，也能知道所有比赛情况，因为报纸上到处都是相关报道。
I mean, even if you didn't see the coverage, you'd find out everything that had happened because it was all over the newspapers.
那时候，BBC广播里也全是相关内容。
It was all over, you know, BBC Radio at the time.
而且经常在主要新闻节目中，哪怕比赛才刚开始，也会有斯诺克的专题报道。
And, you know, frequently, on the main news bulletins, there would be, you know, items about snooker even when it was quite early on in an event.
我记得有一次BBC早上六点的新闻，因为我们爱尔兰也能收到所有英国频道。
I seem to remember the 06:00 news on the BBC once because, you know, we got all the British channels in Ireland.
我甚至听到过关于罗特曼斯大奖赛三十二强赛果的报道。
I had a report on, like, last 32 matches from the Rothmans Grand Prix.
现在想想，这简直难以想象，尽管斯诺克如今依然很受欢迎。
I mean, it's just inconceivable, nowadays, even though snooker obviously still remains massive.
不过你书里也有一章专门讲当时媒体对斯诺克的报道，以及多年来斯诺克与媒体的关系，标题叫《看看我们有多火》。
But you have a chapter anyway about all the media coverage at that time and and snooker's relationship with the media over the years called read all about us.
所有的章节标题都是取自那些家喻户晓的歌曲。
All the, chapter titles are are named after well known songs.
媒体和斯诺克的关系，根本没法分开，因为这一直是斯诺克故事里非常重要的一部分。
The media's relationship with snooker, you you cannot separate it from the sport because it's been such a big part of snooker's story.
是的。
Yeah.
既然斯诺克在电视上火了，报纸自然会紧跟大众感兴趣的话题。
And because snooker became big on TV, the the newspapers will always obviously, they under they wanna write about what people are interested in.
电视上播什么，报纸就拿什么当素材，尤其是小报。
So what's on TV has always been, you know, fodder for for tabloid newspapers.
八十年代的时候，报纸会跟球员签合同，让他们写专栏文章，那时候竞争可激烈了。
I mean, in the eighties, they would sign up players to do sort of ghosted columns, you know, and they'd they'd be bidding wars.
到底谁能签下约翰·帕罗特？
Who who who's gonna get John Parrot?
谁能签下特里、丹尼斯，或者其他人呢？
Who's gonna get, you know, obviously, Terry or Dennis or whoever?
这两者本来就是密不可分的，对吧？
They go hand in hand, don't they?
只要一项运动在电视上很火，自然就会吸引观众关注，媒体也就一定会跟进报道。
If it's prominent on television, then it follows that people are interested, therefore you're going to get coverage.
这种关注并不总是让球员感到舒服，过去确实有不少球员因为跟小报扯上关系而陷入麻烦。
Not always welcome for players and there have been times where players have sort of fallen into sort of trouble getting involved with the tabloids.
托尼·诺尔斯就是个典型的例子。
Tony Knowles will be the classic example of that.
但这只是另一个迹象而已。
But it's just another sign.
我们刚开始报道这项运动的时候，已经是90年代末了，那时候英国每一家报纸都会派记者去现场报道比赛。
I mean, we started covering the sport, and this was the 90s by now, late 90s, still every newspaper in Britain would send a journalist, a correspondent to cover the tournament.
那会儿的影响力真是没得说。
That's how big it was.
不过过去三十年媒体环境变了，现在早就不是这样了。
Now the media's changed obviously in the last thirty years, doesn't happen now.
但这其实是个信号，说明当时的报业非常关注这件事——这根本就是一场发生在公众生活中的肥皂剧。
But it was a sign that, yeah, the the newspaper industry was very much across the fact that that this was a soap opera really going on in national life.
而且当时有那么多性格鲜明的人物，大家特别喜欢其中几个，自然就想了解他们的事。
And there were so many distinct characters, and they've one of their favorites, and therefore people wanted to know about them.
要说肥皂剧倒不至于，八十年代那时候，真正火的电视节目只有《笨人晚宴》。
Not a soap opera, but a sitcom, in the eighties was only Fools and Horses.
几年前我偶然看了几集那个老节目，就是《笨人晚宴》。
It was just about the biggest, television program on the BBC, and I was watching a couple of years ago an old episode of us.
我印象中应该就是《笨人晚宴》没错。
I think it was only Fools and Horses anyway.
那是那个年代特别火的节目，不管叫什么名字，反正特别轰动。
It was something from that era, huge program, whatever it was.
有个人在看报纸，头版头条居然是亚历克斯·希金斯对史蒂夫·戴维斯的评论。
And someone's reading a newspaper, and the back page lead story is Alex Higgins just making some comments about Steve Davis.
那新闻压根儿没提他们当时打的比赛，也没说接下来要打什么。
It wasn't even about the match they played or we're going to play.
就是说，哦，这是亚历克斯对史蒂夫的看法。
It was just, oh, this is what Alex thinks of Steve.
报纸头版头条可是件大事。
Back page lead was a massive deal.
但说实话，那时候看到报纸头版登的是斯诺克选手的新闻，根本不算稀奇。
But, you know, we're not exaggerating when we say there was nothing unusual in those days about seeing a newspaper and seeing the front page lead being a story about a snooker player.
是的。
Yeah.
这挺有意思的。
And it's interesting.
雷·里尔登去世的时候，你可能会想，他早就淡出公众视野了，说不定都被人忘了，可他的消息居然上了各大报纸的头版。
When when Ray Reardon passed away, you know, you might think, well, he's been out the public eye for a long time and, maybe had been even forgotten about, but that was really prominent on the front of papers.
那一代人，现在还买报纸的，对雷·里尔登特别有共鸣，约翰·维尔戈也是同样，他们的新闻都能上头版，因为这些人物在特定年龄层的人心里，至今仍有着极深的印记。
That generation who, I suppose, got older people buy newspapers now, that generation he really resonated, same with John Virgo actually, that was like the headline news, front page news, because those characters are so so resonant still in the public mind of people of a certain age.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我记得，上一次看到斯诺克新闻登上头版，还是在三家全国性报纸上。
I remember, actually, the last time I remember a snooker story being front page lead was in three national newspapers.
就在今年的二十年前，当时是肯和约翰推迟了从马耳他返程的航班，不过这事还是别多提了。
Twenty years ago this year, it was the story about the time Ken and John have put off the flight coming back from Malta, but the less said about that, the better.
还有一件事，我觉得我们很难让现在的人真正理解。
The other thing as well, you know, that I I don't think we can get across to people.
斯诺克作为一项参与性运动，至今依然非常流行，尤其是在全球范围内，中国更是如此。
Snooker's still very popular as a participation sports, you know, obviously, around the world, well, China more than anywhere.
但说回我们这片小地方——大概就是大西洋中部这一带——八十年代到九十年代那会儿，就像你书里也深入写过的，感觉人人都在打斯诺克。
But just talking about in, you know, our little corner of the world and, you know, the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, I guess, around that time in the nineteen eighties and into the nineties, and this is something you you also cover in-depth in the book, felt like everyone was playing.
可现在，在很多地方，如果孩子想学这运动，问题往往是离家五十甚至六十英里内都找不到一家台球俱乐部。
And, you know, nowadays, in a lot of places, sadly, if kids want to take up the game, the problem is there might not be a snooker club within 50 or 60 miles of their house.
这种情况已经太普遍了。
That's become all too common a thing.
那时候，要是想打斯诺克，去附近的台球室就行。
Then the issue, if you wanted to take up the game, was you could go to your local club.
可能得等上一个小时才能轮到一张球桌。
You might have to wait for an hour to get a table.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那会儿简直爆火。
It it exploded.
很明显，只要电视上播，大家就都想亲自试试，而且这游戏上手也不难。
Obviously, again, it follows if it's on TV, people wanna play it themselves, and it was relatively easy to play the game.
像你说的，家里可以放张小球桌，我就有一张，或者干脆去台球室玩一玩。
You could get, as you say, a small table at home, which I had, or sort of venture into the snooker club.
书里有一章讲台球俱乐部，后来这些地方也变得越来越整洁，跟比赛的氛围保持一致。
There's a chapter on snooker clubs in the book and they started to become more sanitized as well in line with the tournaments.
那时候，烟雾缭绕的厅堂已经不常见了，因为俱乐部之间的竞争太激烈了。
It wasn't all smoky halls by then, because there was so much competition between clubs.
实际上，你得更讲究一点了。
Actually, you had to be a bit smarter.
你得是个愿意让孩子去那儿打球的地方才行。
You had to be a place where it was you'd be willing to drop your son or your daughter off and play.
台球的流行确实推动了这种变化，但问题来了：它还能维持当年的热度吗？其实已经有点撑不住了。
So the popularity of snooker certainly moved that forward but again I suppose the question is could it continue and it couldn't quite at that level.
后来禁烟令出台了，对一些人来说，去台球俱乐部那种社交的乐趣就没了。
We know that later on the smoking ban came in, that took away for some the social aspect to go into snooker clubs.
但社会总在变，潮流也在变，我们现在明显更沉迷于科技产品。
But society changes anyway, fashions change, we're obviously far more obsessed now with technology.
所以，花六个小时打台球，可能已经不是十三岁孩子想做的事了。
So it may be that spending six hours playing snooker is not you know, the the sort of thing a 13 year old wants to do.
真可惜。
Shame.
我们得想办法激励他们。
You we have to incentivize them.
中国在这方面已经做到了，靠的是基础设施和大量投入。
They've done that in China with the infrastructure and the investment they've had.
我知道杰森·弗格森最近提到过，可能要建一所国家级学院，要是真能成，那可太好了。
And I know Jason Ferguson recently was talking about potentially setting up a national academy, which would be brilliant if they could do that Mhmm.
试着吸引我们未来需要的那一代年轻人。
To try and sort of, you know, appeal to that to that generation that we need in the future.
大卫，今年我们都五十岁了，活到这个年纪，总会有不少让人烦心的事。
You and I are both 50 this year, Dave, and you can't reach that age without developing quite a few bugbears in life.
我知道对我们俩来说，有一件事特别让人头疼，我以前问过他们
And I know for both of us, one of the biggest I asked them
我二十岁的时候。
when I was 20.
确实如此。
Well, indeed.
对。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
我完全可以证实这一点。
I I I can certainly vouch for that.
但有一件事，我知道咱们俩都烦，其实所有斯诺克爱好者也都烦，就是那种经常被传出来的懒惰观点。
But one thing that I know irritates us both and irritates all snooker people actually, is this lazy notion that's often peddled.
八十年代的时候特别盛行。
It was massive in the eighties.
那时候一切都特别好。
Everything was fantastic.
可到了1990年1月1日，突然间一切就变糟了，没人再关心斯诺克了。
And then on the 01/01/1990, suddenly everything was rubbish and nobody was interested in snooker anymore.
你完全说反了，实际上，如果回看斯诺克历史上的辉煌时期，上世纪九十年代初的亨利·怀特时代绝对独一无二——他们连续四次在世锦赛决赛相遇，每一场都有自己的故事，虽然最终结果都是斯蒂芬赢了。
Well, you could not be further from the truth because actually, in many ways, if you're looking back on great eras in the game, there is nothing like what we call the Henry White era of the early nineties when they met in four world finals, each of which told its own story in a way, although the the net result of all of them, of course, was was that Stephen won them all.
你在《这个小镇容不下我们两个》这一章里，对这段历史做了非常详细的描述。
And you refer to, that in great detail in a chapter called This Town Ain't Big Enough for the Both of Us.
我觉得，对经历过八九十年代的人来说，回忆起那段斯诺克岁月，远比前一个十年更深刻、更难忘的，正是亨利和怀特之间的竞争——当然，那是一种非常友好的竞争。
I think, actually, people of a certain age, probably, when they look back in their snooker memories of the eighties and nineties, there's far far more about that Henry White rivalry as it were, although it was obviously a very friendly one, than there are memories from the decade that went before us.
我们之前也聊过泰勒和戴维斯，他们之间的风格和个性差异很明显。
And in a way, perhaps, we talked there about Taylor and Davis and the contrast between them and their personalities and their approaches.
他们只在世锦赛决赛碰过一次面。
They just had that one world final.
而这两位，虽然在风格和性格上截然不同，却四次在世锦赛决赛对决。
These guys, who in many ways were such a contrast between them in in their own way, they had four world finals.
那时候，对我们所有人来说，这简直是场盛宴。
What a treat that was for all of us at the time.
是的。
Yeah.
这正好印证了我之前说的，斯诺克不仅是体育竞技，更是人性的戏剧。
And it goes back to what I said, you know, of snooker is sporting drama and human drama.
对这两个人来说，这简直像一场心理剧，核心就一个问题：吉米·怀特能不能赢一次？
In the case of those two, it was a kind of psychodrama based purely around could Jimmy White win it?
就连那些特别喜欢史蒂芬·亨德利的人，也盼着吉米最终能赢，毕竟他太受欢迎了，看他的比赛简直是一种享受。
And even people who love Stephen Hendry kind of wanted Jimmy eventually to win it because such a popular player, such a great player to watch.
还有一点值得提一下，可能很多人没意识到，吉米其实赢过史蒂芬·亨德利好多次，大型赛事、决赛里都赢过。
And it's worth saying as well, maybe again people don't realize, Jimmy beat Stephen Hendry lots of times, you know, the tournaments, in big tournaments, in finals.
但他只在世锦赛上赢过他两次。
But he beat him the world championship twice.
没错。
Exactly.
是啊。
Yeah.
但不是在真正关键的那场决赛里赢的。
But not in the but not in the final, the match that really happens.
但这里形成了鲜明的对比。
But a classic contrast there.
一方是极度专业的选手。
You've got, you know, the ultra professional.
史蒂芬·亨德利赛前准备充分，全神贯注于眼前的任务——赢球。
Steven Angel been better early preparing, totally focused on the job in hand, which is winning.
他心里根本没什么情绪波动。
Not any emotion about it.
对他来说，就是专心打球、赢下比赛。
Not any you know, it's all about just playing and winning.
这正是他参赛的目的。
That's what he's there to do.
吉米呢，性格外向，可能太外向了，朋友一大堆，后台通行证要不完，这些事儿占了他不少时间。
Jimmy, sociable, probably too sociable, lots of friends, lots of people wanting backstage passes, all that is sort of time taken up with other people.
尼尔·福尔兹在书里提到过，约翰·维尔戈也说过，身边全是盼着他赢的人，但这种环境，真能撑得住像世锦赛这样漫长的赛事吗？
Neil Folds mentions that in the book and John Virgo as well, just surrounded by so many people who want him to win, but is that kind of setup going to be a recipe for success over a long tournament like the World Championship?
但最终结果并不是这样。
Well, ultimately it wasn't.
不过那些决赛，确实堪称盛况空前。
But yeah, those finals, I mean, were absolutely huge.
尤其是92年，亨利一度落后48分，却连赢十局；还有94年，吉米在决胜局没打进黑球。
The two in particular, obviously 92 when Henry was 48 down, won the last ten and ninety four when Jimmy missed that black in the decider.
那真是一个激动人心的时代。
A thrilling era.
当然，那时候这些比赛也激励了很多人。
And of course, again, that is inspirational for around that time.
当时有哪些新人冒头了？
Who's coming through?
罗尼·奥沙利文、约翰·希金斯、马克·威廉姆斯，这批‘92届天才’，正是在那时崛起，被眼前的比赛深深吸引。
Ronnie O'Sullivan, John Higgins, Mark Williams, the class of '92 were coming through at that time, mesmerized by what they're watching.
对。
Yeah.
也许从某种角度来说，吉米从未赢得那些世锦赛决赛倒也不是坏事，因为他确实在1990年12月的老世界邀请赛中，以35局18胜的赛制击败过史蒂文，赢得过一场重要的电视转播决赛。
It's perhaps in some respects just as well Jimmy never won any of those world finals because he did win a big televised final over best of 35 against Steven once in the old world match play in December 1990.
但说真的，他那个周末的结局相当狼狈——具体细节我实在记不清了，但就在第二天晚上，吉米穿着圣诞老人的衣服，在电视节目里给史蒂夫颁奖，节目结束后，他又直接上场和史蒂夫·戴维斯打起了比赛。
And, it's fair to say, his weekend had quite an ignominious end because in circumstances I certainly can't remember, the very next night, Jimmy was on TV dressed as Santa Claus making a presentation to Steve, and at the end of a TV spectacular, he played against Steve Davis.
所以，赢下这场击败伟大冠军的35局大战，换来的回报其实没那么体面。
So what wasn't much of a reward for beating the, the great champion over best of 35.
不过你刚才提到亨利·怀特时代那两场经典的决赛。
But you you talked there about those two standout finals from the Henry White era.
1994年那场，无疑是世锦赛决赛历史上极少数打到最后一局才分出胜负的比赛之一。
'94, obviously, was one of those very rare instances of a world championship final that went to the last frame.
但我觉得大家印象更深的，其实是1992年那场——吉米当时状态绝佳，第一轮就打出了满分杆，那在当时可是轰动新闻，决赛里他还一度大比分领先，结果却连输十局，彻底崩盘。
But I think probably the one people remember more is the one from '92 when Jimmy went into the championship in brilliant form, had the maximum in the first round when when when that was huge news, and then had the big lead in the final, lost 10 frames in a row.
我觉得在普通观众心里，可能更记得的反而是这一场。
I think probably, you know, among the wider public, that's that's one that's maybe remembered more.
那也是职业斯诺克历史上最后一场正式比赛。
And that was the last professional snooker match that was played.
嗯，从技术上讲，也许那会儿还有赛季末的什么比赛之类的。
Well, you can argue, technically, maybe there was some end of season thing or whatever.
但这么说吧，到了下一个赛季开始时，你提到的那些人——罗尼·奥沙利文、约翰·希金斯、马克·威廉姆斯——都已经转为职业选手，正式开始了他们的职业生涯。
But put it this way, by the start of the following season, the guys you alluded to there, Ronnie O'Sullivan, John Higgins, Mark Williams, had all turned pro and were off and running.
而且，说真的，这不就是天作之合吗？
And, you know, it was just perfect, wasn't it?
他们仨正好在同一时间转为职业选手。
They all turned pro at the same time.
一个来自英格兰，一个来自苏格兰，一个来自威尔士。
One from England, one from Scotland, one from Wales.
但我一直这么看：就像我们之前说的，八十年代英国有数以百万计的孩子在打斯诺克，从小就在这项运动里长大。
But the way I always put it is that because as we were talking about earlier, there were so, so many millions of kids around The UK playing snooker and growing up in the nineteen eighties.
所以，从那个年代冒出这么多史上最伟大的球员，其实一点都不奇怪。
It was inevitable that you were going to get many of the greatest players of all time coming through from that era.
而事实也确实如此，你刚才提到的这三位，绝对能排进史上最强的六七位选手之列。
And we did because you're talking there about, I would say, three of the best six or seven snooker players we've ever seen.
现在人们还在谈论这件事。
People talk about it now.
他们怎么还能这么厉害？
Why are they still so good?
这其实一点都不神秘。
Well, there's no mystery to it at all.
因为后来涌现的那些选手，都没能撼动他们的地位。
It's because, you know, what what's come through has not been able to knock them off that perch.
我觉得我刚才说的这一切，再次说明了当年英国有多少孩子全身心投入斯诺克，数量和水平都极其惊人。
And I think all of what I've said there just reflects again the sheer depth in terms of numbers and quality of kids around Britain who were spending their lives playing snooker at that time.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且，这简直就是一部绝佳的肥皂剧题材。
And, also, what a gift, again, in sort of soap opera, you know, theme.
真是再完美不过了。
What a gift.
如果你在写一部Netflix剧集，安排三个年轻斯诺克选手登场，
If you were sort of writing a, like, a Netflix show and okay, we're gonna have three young snooker players come through.
那就让一个来自埃塞克斯的，有点张扬，家庭背景跌宕起伏，但天赋异禀，
Okay, well we'll have one who's from Essex, who's a bit flash and he's got this sort of vivid backstory with his family, but he's also a genius.
一个来自威尔士的，特别调皮，出身极其普通，
We'll have one from Wales who's really cheeky, he's come from a very humble background.
他爸爸在罢工期间只是个普通工人，
His dad was a minor during the strike.
再加一个来自苏格兰的，性格中庸但极其执着，一心想要效仿那位统治过这项运动的苏格兰传奇，
And we'll have one from Scotland who's a bit more sort of middle of the road but very driven and he's trying to emulate another great Scott who's dominated the game.
他们三人简直是天造地设的对照组，
They were perfect foils for one another.
当然，他们本身也是顶尖选手，
And I think, I mean, obviously great players.
但他们至今仍在巅峰，原因之一就是三个人都还在坚持。
One of the reasons though they're still going is because they're all still going.
他们还在彼此竞争。
They are still competing against each other.
他们都在关注对方在做什么。
They're looking at what one another is doing.
他们互相激励着。
They're inspiring one another.
是啊，真了不起。
Yeah, remarkable.
但他们也是那个繁荣时代的产物，对吧？
But again, they're products of the boom, aren't they?
他们小时候在八十年代看着电视里的斯诺克长大的。
They grew up watching in the eighties, the the snooker on the TV.
突然间，打球的机会多了起来，球馆多了，青少年赛事和业余比赛也多了。
And suddenly, all the playing opportunities came along, more clubs, more junior events, amateur events.
通过不断比赛，他们的水平不断提升。
And through competition, they improved.
不过有意思的是，他们去布莱克浦的时候，正好是1991年台球开放之后，到了1992年夏天，大家又去诺布罗克打所有资格赛。
It's interesting, though, when they went to Blackpool, you know, that was when when the game went open in '91, and then in '92, went to the Norbrook in Blackpool to play all the qualifiers during the summer.
一打就是好几个月，时间特别长。
Long months, many months of playing.
有些孩子一没人管就放飞自我，彻底失控了。
Some of the kids who did that let off the leash, went off the rails.
你知道的，整天泡在酒吧里喝酒。
You know, they'd spend their time drinking.
他们根本没心思练台球了。
They they weren't focusing on snooker.
但这三个人都没这样，都坚持下来了。
Those three all did.
罗尼·奥沙利文每天都在打，因为他天天赢，但他中间也会找点别的事做。
Ronnie O'Sullivan, I mean, playing every day because he was winning every day, but he's sort of pursuit in between.
他就跑去海边跑步。
He'd just go and run along the beach.
他就会去跑步。
He would run.
马克·威廉姆斯当时也在，和朋友们在一起，但他没跟着瞎闹。
Mark Williams was there with his friends, but he wasn't getting involved in mischief.
约翰·希金斯是他爸管着，没让他掺和那些事。
John Higgins was kept out of that by his dad.
所以他们仨从小就特别自律。
So they were all very disciplined at a young age.
你难免会想，也许还有别的选手，要是也有这份自律，本可以取得更了不起的成就。
And you do wonder, I mean, there may have been other players who could have actually, you know, gone on to have great careers if they did have that same discipline.
不过我刚才说的这三位，确实是体育界的榜样。
But I've said something about those three as as sports people.
说到底，他们心里就只有斯诺克。
It was all about the snooker, really.
《金罐子》是那本书。
Well, Pots of Gold is the book.
戴夫，你用几句话给我们总结一下吧。
Sum it up for us in a couple of sentences, Dave.
假如你跟人说你写了一本书，对方问你这本书讲什么，你会怎么回答？
If if you were trying to tell someone, oh, I've written a book and they say, what's it about?
你会怎么用两三句话把这本书的核心讲清楚？
How would you sum it up in sort of two or three sentences?
这本书试图梳理斯诺克的历史，讲述职业斯诺克头一百年里亲历者的故事，并结合当时英国社会的变迁，解释为什么斯诺克会融入文化，为什么至今仍保有这种地位，又为什么能持续吸引这么多人。
It's an attempt at the history of snooker, the first hundred years of professional snooker told by the people who were there and put into context in terms of how, in particular, British society changed over that time and why snooker became part of the culture and why it remains part of the culture and why it is that it's a sport that still fascinates so many people.
我觉得归根结底，原因有两个。
It ultimately comes down to two things I think.
一个是这项运动本身，我们知道它古怪，但又特别精彩。
One is the actual game itself, which as we know is eccentric but also fantastic.
另一个是那些球员，他们各自的人生故事为这项运动增添了丰富的内涵。
And the other is the people who played it and what they contributed in terms of their personal stories.
我的目标就是尽可能把这些故事都收录进书里。
And my goal was to try and get as many of those stories in the book as I could.
最近，关于这项运动的未来，我们有了个大消息。
We've recently had big news about the future of the sport, of course.
我对此感到非常高兴。
I'm absolutely delighted about it.
我想你也一样。
I think you are too.
世锦赛会继续在克鲁西布举行，直到2045年，对吧？
The championship is gonna be staying at the Crucible until was it 2045?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
假设到了那时候，有人来找你。
It goes up to so let's suppose someone comes to you at that time.
他们甚至会说：‘你那本2025年写的书，我们想请你更新几章，讲讲之后发生的事。’
They even said, yeah, that book you wrote, back in 2025 or whatever, you know, we want you now to update us with some more chapters about everything that's happened since.
你觉得那些章节里会写些什么？
What do you think would be in those chapters?
我的意思是，你对这项运动未来几十年的发展有什么看法？
Essentially, what I'm asking is, how do you see the next couple of decades for the game?
我觉得最简单的回答就是，它会越来越不像以前那样以英国为中心。
I think the easy answer is to say it will be less UK centric.
中国在体育投资方面显然是主力，但我们还不知道这一代中国选手是不是最强的。
Obviously, China are the powerhouse in terms of investment in the sport, but we don't know whether this generation of Chinese players might be the best.
你知道的。
You know?
这谁也说不准。
There's no way of knowing that.
但我希望它能变得更加国际化。
But I hope that it does become more international.
我们从克鲁西布现场就能看到，现在有越来越多的观众来自世界各地。
We know from going to the Crucible, so many fans now come from all around the world.
这项运动在全球各地的电视频道、流媒体平台和WST Play上都能看到。
It's viewed all around the world on various TV channels, streaming platforms, WST Play.
现在观看的人比以往任何时候都多，来自的国家也比以往更广泛。
So more people than ever in lots of more different countries than ever are watching it.
我希望这种扩散趋势能持续下去。
So I hope that that spread continues.
我担心的是，这项运动本身别为了迎合大众而变得肤浅。
What I hope is that the game itself doesn't change in terms of we don't decide to start dumbing it down.
我们有快攻赛，那玩四天没问题，过去也试过六红球，但核心玩法经得起时间考验。
We have the shootout and that's fine for four days, they've had six reds in the past, but the actual game itself has stood the test of time.
差不多一百年了，这项运动的基本规则一直没变。
We're talking over a hundred years now of essentially the same game.
规则上有些小调整，比如米斯特规则之类的，但本质上还是同一个游戏。
The Mist rule has changed or that sort of thing, but essentially the same game.
我希望别有谁突然灵光一现，非要把它改得花里胡哨的。
So I hope that, you know, some bright spark doesn't come along and try and jazz it up too much.
我觉得不会，因为喜欢斯诺克的人，都是有原因的。
I don't think they will because I think there's an understanding that the people who like snooker like it for a reason.
而且到2045年我们还能在克鲁斯堡办比赛，这简直太了不起了，真的太了不起了。
And the fact that we're still going to be at The Crucible as well in 2045 is incredible actually, it is incredible.
你和我都在那里有过很多美好的经历。
And you and I have had a lot of great experiences there.
我记得我第一次去的时候才13岁，走进那个场馆，那场比赛其实一般，但我一进去就知道，这就是我想加入的世界。
And I mean, I said this, when I went there for the first time at 13, walked into the theater, the match I saw wasn't great, but I walked into a world that I knew I wanted to be a part of.
现在有这么多人在几十年间也能有机会亲身感受这一切，真是太好了。
And it's great now that so many other people over the decades will get a chance to be part of it as well.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得是玛蒂娜·纳芙拉蒂洛娃，她其实是个斯诺克迷，那位传奇人物
I think it was Martina Navratilova, who actually is a snooker fan, the legend Makes
让你成了铁杆粉丝。
you a big enough fan.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
几年前有人问过我，如果只能选择一次网球体验，而且是这辈子最后一次，你会选什么？
I've never heard being asked some years ago, you know, if you could just have one tennis experience, you know, now for the you know, and it would be the last tennis experience of your life, what would it be?
她说，我会和施特菲·格拉芙一起走上温布尔登的中央球场，她们曾经是死对头，后来格拉芙最终成了世界第一。
And she said, I'll just go on to the center court at Wimbledon with Stephie Graff, who she had a great rivalry with and who eventually usurped her as the best player in the world.
而且现场不会有观众。
And there'd be no crowds.
我们甚至都不记分。
We wouldn't even keep score.
我们就站在中央球场，打打球，聊聊过去的那些日子。
We'd just stand on center court, and we'd hit balls, and, you know, we'd reminisce about times past.
如果我能拥有一次斯诺克体验，这和你刚才说的很搭，我想我会去克鲁西布剧院坐一坐。
I think if I could have won snooker experience, and it ties in with what you're saying there, I think I'll just go and sit in the crucible.
没人比赛，什么都没有，就静静地坐着，感受这一切，回想那些美好的时光，就像你说的，我们真是特别幸运。
And no match or anything just going on, and just sit and take it all in and, you know, remember the great times, as you say, that we've been so, so lucky.
我觉得我们俩一直都明白，这些年能亲眼看到这些，是多么难得的机会。
And I think we've both always appreciated, you know, the chance that we've got to see things up close over the years.
是啊，我也是这么想的。
Well, yeah, and I just yeah.
就在上周，这个消息公布后，我刚和一个人聊过，他父亲不久前去世了，以前他父亲总带他去克鲁西布剧院。
I I just finally I I I spoke to someone just last week after this was announced, and he recently lost his father who used to take him to the crucible.
但他跟我说，今年我要带我儿子去。
But he said, this year, I'm gonna take my son.
这种经历，多少钱都买不到。
So, you know, money can't buy that.
这说明了，虽然体育的商业层面确实很重要，但有些东西比这更重要。
That that just tells you it's not all about you know, the commercial side of sport is really important, but some things are more important.
而这种传承现在还会继续，至少到2045年，说不定还能更久。
And that continuity now is gonna continue, you know, well, up to at least 2045, maybe, and hopefully beyond.
是的。
Yeah.
等真到了那时候，我们还得面对多少头疼的事啊。
And imagine how many bugbears we'll have by the time that comes around.
不过先说说近一点的，戴夫，二月份。
But much more short term future, Dave, the February.
最大的问题就是，到底谁能赢我们？
And the big question is who's gonna win us?
这一直都是个大问题。
Well, it's always the big question.
我的心里其实一直都有个大概的想法。
I mean, I I always have quite a firm idea.
我通常都猜错，但我心里有个人选。
I'm usually wrong, but I have a firm idea.
今年别选他。
This year, don't.
我有五个名字，正打算尽快缩小范围。
I've got five names, which I'll try and whittle down quickly.
首先是肖国栋，卫冕冠军，当然还有克鲁斯堡魔咒这些因素。
They are Xiao Zing Tong, who obviously, defending champion, Crucible Curse, etcetera.
凯伦·威尔逊，两年前他夺冠那会儿状态特别好，拿过大师赛和上海大师赛，但最近参加球员巡回赛的次数少了。
Kyren Wilson who like two years ago when he won it as a quite well a quite season he won the Masters and the Shanghai Masters but he hasn't been in the player series as much.
他最近打的斯诺克比赛不多。
He hasn't played as much snooker.
所以如果你想找个人状态好、休息充分的，也许凯伦是个不错的选择。
So if you're looking for someone a bit rested maybe Kyren.
特鲁姆普，我从来不会小看他。
Trump I would never count out.
我觉得他们还会再赢一次。
I do feel they'll win it again.
马克·塞尔比我从来不会忽视，他可是真正的克鲁斯堡高手，还有罗尼·奥沙利文，毕竟他是罗尼·奥沙利文。
Mark Selby, I would never count out because he's a proper Crucible man, and Ronnie O'Sullivan because he's Ronnie O'Sullivan.
所以我觉得冠军就在这五个人中间产生。
So I think it'd be one of those five.
目前嘛，我改主意了。
At the moment And I've changed
谢谢收听，关于前五号种子，戴夫，基本上就是这些了。
the Thanks for listening off the top five seeds, Dave, which is basically more or
不客气。
No problem.
嗯，那从这五个人里挑一个你最看好的吧。
Well, yeah, well, pick pick pick one out for
你最喜欢的那一个。
us, is your favorite.
变化挺大的。
Has changed a lot.
明白吧？
Okay?
是的。
Yeah.
很长一段时间，我看好塞尔比。
For a long time, it was Selby.
最近我有点偏向齐ington了。
I kind of veered towards Zington.
我现在觉得是凯尔和威尔逊，但我真没多大把握。
I'm actually gonna say Kyle and Wilson, but I'm not in any way confident.
我去年还押过他呢。
I mean, ticked him last year.
结果第一天就输了。
He lost for day one.
但我觉得，如果他能把排位问题解决好——这赛季这一直是个大问题——我确实觉得他内心是真觉得自己配得上世界冠军的头衔。
But I I think that I think that if he could if he sorted his queue out, and that's been a big issue this season, I do feel that he is someone who genuinely feels he should be world champion.
我说这话是褒义的，毕竟两年前他已经证明过了。
And I mean that in a good way, and of course he proved it two years ago.
不过话说回来，这个赛季赛程这么分散，比赛结果也太分散了，根本找不到一个清晰的主线。
But look, it's going to be really interesting because the season we've had with so many tournaments shared around, there's no real narrative to hold on to.
所以归根结底，只能靠直觉来判断了。
It So really is just gut instinct.
就像巴里·戴维斯以前常说的，可能有些人不记得了，他以前是足球解说员。
And like Barry Davis used to say when he took Barry Davis was a football commentator for people who don't remember.
他每次去看球赛，总有人问他：‘巴里，你觉得谁会赢？’
And he used to turn up at football matches and people would always say, who's gonna win Barry?
他就说：‘这正是我来这儿的原因啊。所以我几周后也会去谢菲尔德，看看结果到底怎样。’
And he said, that's why I'm here to find That's why I'll be going to Sheffield, you know, in a few weeks.
是的。
Yeah.
其实挺有意思的。
It's funny, actually.
你知道的，每当有新冠军诞生，就像我们这几年几乎每年都有新王登基时，大家总会议论纷纷。
You know, there's always talk when we have a new champion as we seem to have most years at the moment.
到现在为止，我们已经连续看到三位首次夺冠的选手了。
We've had, what is it, now three first time champions in a row.
大家总是把话题集中在这些首次夺冠的选手身上。
Always the talk of, first time champions.
他们根本应付不来。
They can't handle it all.
而且我觉得，如果你是个英国人，从小听到大的都是这些说法，那确实会在心里留下点影响。
And and I think if you're British and you've been listening to that your your whole life, it does get in your head a bit.
这次不一样，咱们这位冠军可不是听着这些长大的，他可能压根儿就不太清楚什么所谓的克鲁斯堡魔咒。
This time, we've got a champion who hasn't grown up listening to all of that and probably, you know, is barely aware of what the so called curse of the Crucible is.
我觉得这对他来说是个很大的优势，再加上他这个赛季表现也很棒，更是锦上添花。
And I think that'll be very much in his favor, and the fact he's had a great season as well also helps.
所以如果乔再次夺冠，没人会觉得意外。
So nobody would be surprised if we saw Joe win it again.
我选特朗普。
My pick is Trump.
你懂的。
You know?
当你成为多次世界冠军的时候，那完全是另一个层次了，对吧？
You're in a different level, aren't you, when you become a multiple world champion?
因为在克鲁西布，到底有多少人赢过呢？
Because I think at the Crucible, it's what is it?
到目前为止，只有六位选手在那里赢过不止一次。
Still only six players have won there Yeah.
赢过多次的？
More than once?
他们大概算是历史上最伟大的六位选手了。
They're probably the sixth greatest players of all time.
是的。
Yeah.
如果乔治真想跻身那个行列，他就得再赢一次。
And if George really wants to put himself in that group, he's he's gotta win another one.
我时间还多，但就是有种感觉，今年可能会是时候了。
I still got plenty of time, but I I just have a feeling this year, it might be the time.
但说到底，这全都是直觉，对吧？
But it's all hunches, isn't it?
你知道吗，现在打比赛，跟我们小时候完全不一样了——那时候，你猜冠军，基本就是挑赛季表现最好的那个选手。
You know, when you're going into it now, it's a long way from the days that we grew up in where most years, if you, pick the winner beforehand, you could just say whoever had been the best player of the season.
大多数年份，最后赢的还真是那个人。
And most seasons, that was who ended up winning us.
但现在不一样了，我们所处的时代，斯诺克从主流化算起，也就半个世纪左右的历史。
We're in a different time now, though, and we've come from, you know, a wonderfully rich history that, you know, in terms of snooker being mainstream, is basically stretching back about half a century now.
而这一切，还有更多精彩，都像金矿一样丰富。
And it's all outlined and so much more in pots of gold.
这部作品反响非常好，我觉得想全面了解斯诺克这项运动、它的历史，以及它在台面上下所代表的意义，这里就是最好的去处。
It's been really well received, and, that is, the place to go, I think, to get a, you know, a really comprehensive account of the game, its history, and what it's meant both on and off the table.
大卫，感谢你参与我们的节目。
Dave, thanks for joining us.
这是WPBSA官方播客全新系列的开篇。
This is the start of a new series of the WPBSA official podcast.
接下来几周我们还有更多精彩内容，敬请持续关注，也感谢你今天的陪伴。
We've got so much coming up over the next few weeks, so, stay with us for more episodes, and thanks for your company today.
再见。
Bye bye.
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