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这里我们要深入探讨了，但我还是要说出来。
Here's where we go into off into the deep end, but I'm just gonna say this.
人类很大一部分被隐瞒了这些知识。
Knowledge is being kept from a huge chunk of the human race.
我认为这并不是人类历史上新出现的现象。
I don't think this is a new phenomenon to mankind.
我认为我们面对这种现象已经有一段时间了。
I think we've been faced with this phenomenon for quite some time.
有没有可能他们中的一些人已经渗透到了我们的世界？
Has there been the possibility of an infiltration by some of them into our world?
如果这个物种确实存在，那么这种现象实际上是它的特征之一，即它能够显现或操控自身的生命能量。
If this species truly exists, this phenomenon is actually something, is that one of its attributes is its ability to manifest or ability to manipulate its own life force energy.
早就该这样了。
It is way past time.
有太多人类正在经历这些事，我们现在需要填补这些空白，说出真相。
So many humans who are having experiences, and we now need to fill in the gaps and tell the truth.
我正在与内部遗留项目的人交谈，他们带着强烈的情绪向我表达沮丧，作为科学家，他们非常在意这种知识被隐瞒了人类的很大一部分，只有情报和军事机构内一小部分人能够接触到这些信息。
I'm talking to people inside the legacy program who tell me frustratedly with great emotion how much as scientists they care about the fact that this knowledge is being kept from a huge chunk of the human race, that only a select cadre of people inside the intelligence and military establishment are privy to this information.
他们告诉我，这种做法是毫无根据的。
And they think they tell me it's unwarranted.
这是无法辩解的。
It's unjustifiable.
他们承认，我们不应让潜在的对手——俄罗斯、中国、朝鲜、伊朗——获得这些危险的技术。
They acknowledge that we should not let our potential adversaries, Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, gain access to such dangerous technologies.
但他们看不出有什么理由不能告诉全人类真相，即存在非人类智能体（NHIs），它们已经与这颗星球互动了数千年之久。
But they see no reason why the human race can't be told what they tell me is the truth, which is there are NHIs, nonhuman intelligences, that have been engaging with this planet for many, many thousands of years.
数千年。
Thousands.
不是数万年吗？
Not tens of thousands?
哦，我无法确定是数万年。
Oh, well, I can't specify tens of thousands.
我只是觉得，这远远不止几万年。
I've just you know, it would be more than tens of thousands.
我是听说，它们早已与我们共存，久远得无法追溯。
I mean, they've been with us for for time immemorial, I'm told.
现在
Now
上百万年。
Millions.
那是你的说法，我的朋友。
That's your that's your words, my friend.
我不确定。
I don't know.
我确实不知道。
I don't know for sure.
但简单来说，我目前对这场争论有点厌倦了。
But the the simple fact is I'm kind of I'm bored with this debate at the moment.
你知道吗，我现在不在乎了。
You know, I don't care anymore.
我只是觉得，人们在这里存在一种根本性的监管失职。
I just think, you know, people there's a fundamental failure here of oversight.
我知道很多人会对这项新立法的内容感到兴奋。
I know a lot of people are gonna get excited with what this new legislation says.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我想谈谈这个问题，因为我觉得我们有必要讨论它。
And I wanna deal with that because I think it's important that we talk about it.
但我直觉感到，国会并没有真心实意地推动这件事，而那些希望压制此事的强大军方游说集团正在得势。
But I have a gut feeling that congress's heart is not in this and that the lobby, the powerful military lobby that wants this suppressed is winning.
果然，他们在社交媒体上安排了代言人。
And sure enough, they've got their shills out there in social media.
他们在媒体中也有自己的朋友。
They've got their friends in the media.
你知道吗，每个国家安全记者都被私下告知：哦，别碰这个话题。
You know, every national security correspondent is being told on the QT, oh, you know, stay away from this one.
你知道吗？
You know?
私下？
On the QT?
悄悄地。
On the quiet.
你能解释一下这是怎么运作的吗？
Can you explain how this works?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
我的意思是，我在国家安全问题上是有经验的。
I mean, I mean, I've I've on national security issues.
我觉得可笑的是，我们来打个比方。
The thing I find hilarious is let's use an analogy.
让我们谈谈上次海湾战争期间、基地组织袭击后不久，也就是2003年2月发生的事。
Let's talk about what happened at the time of the last Gulf War shortly after the Al Qaeda attacks, 02/2003.
不知为何，直到现在都从未被彻底合理地解释过，基地组织被莫名其妙地等同于伊拉克和阿富汗，结果我们基于某些情报来源，发动了对这两个国家完全灾难性的战争。
For some reason that has never been even now fully properly explained, Al Qaeda became Iraq and Afghanistan, and we ended up launching totally disastrous wars into both of those countries based on intelligence from sources.
明白吗？
Okay?
现在想想那些天真的国家安全记者，他们因为未能尽职而被公开谴责，却曾全盘接受了中央情报局、科林·鲍威尔在联合国的证词所提供的保证。
Now ask yourself, credulous national security reporters who have since been hung out to drive for their failure to do their job properly accepted assurances from the CIA, from Cole Powell, his testimony to the UN.
这是一个关键时刻，当时世界几乎被说服，以萨达姆·侯赛因拥有大规模杀伤性武器为由，发动了针对伊拉克的战争。
This was an important moment where the world was essentially strict into going to war against Saddam Hussein on the false claim that he had weapons of mass destruction in the Iraqi Desert.
这一切的情报来源，很大程度上可以追溯到一个叫‘曲线球’的人。
That was all sourced back largely in part to one guy called Curveball.
那是他的代号，曲线球。
That was his code name, Curveball.
这个人据我所知住在德国，是个难民，结果发现他是伊拉克国民大会安排的卧底，而这个组织基本上与伊朗立场一致。
A guy based, I think, somewhere in Germany who was a refugee, and it turned out he was a put up by the Iraqi National Congress who were essentially a group that were largely aligned with Iran.
由于那些不负责任的国家安全记者没有尽职尽责，这个消息源误导了全世界，引发了中东战争。
And because of credulous national security reporters not doing their job, a source led the world to war in The Middle East.
数万亿美元被浪费在一场不必要的战争上。
Trillions of dollars have been expended in an unnecessary war.
数十万无辜生命在一场不必要的战争中丧生。
Hundreds of thousands of lives of good people have been lost in unnecessary war.
问题是，当时主要是美国记者，还有英国和澳大利亚记者。
Now the problem with that was you had largely American journalists, but also British and Australian journalists.
我也把自己算在内。
And I count myself in this as well.
我曾参与过一些这类报道。
I was involved in doing some of these stories.
我们盲目接受了美国方面提供的保证，相信伊拉克沙漠中确实存在大规模杀伤性武器，必须对萨达姆·侯赛因采取行动，以制止这个邪恶的人继续作恶。
You know, we credulously accepted the assurances that the Americans were giving that there were weapons of mass destruction in the Iraqi Desert and that there had to be an engagement with Saddam Hussein to bring this to a resolution, to stop this evil man from doing these terrible things.
事实上，入侵后几周内就发现并不存在这些大规模杀伤性武器。
The reality was that it soon emerged within a few weeks of the invasion that there weren't these WMDs.
这场战争的所有借口都是错误的。
The whole pretext for the war was wrong.
情报也是错误的。
The intelligence was wrong.
所以这里存在双重标准。
So you have a double standard here.
在2003年，也就是十八年前，媒体盲目接受了国家安全部门的保证，说‘是的，我们应该相信我们的消息来源’。
You have the media back in 2003, what's that, eighteen years ago, credulously accepting assurances from the National Assure Security Establishment that, oh, yeah, we should believe our sources.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我们应该去中东打仗。
We should go to war in The Middle East.
当然。
Absolutely.
现在我们面临一种情况：一个极具声望且可信的情报来源，此人曾亲自将国家地理空间局提供的总统每日简报直接送至白宫西翼，负责管理两千项特殊访问项目，如今却公开做出极为震撼、我确信在本体论上令人震惊的声明，称地球上存在非人类智能（NHI）或外星生命。
Now we've got a situation where a highly reputable, credible intelligence source, somebody who personally hand delivered the presidential daily briefings from the National Geospatial Agency directly to the West Wing of the White House, entrusted with 2,000 special access programs, goes public and makes very dramatic and, yeah, I'm sure quite ontologically shocking claims about an NHI presence, an alien presence on this planet.
你在《纽约时报》、《华盛顿邮报》或任何电视网络（ABC、CBS、NBC）的新闻版块中，看到过多少相关报道？
And how many stories have you seen in the news sections of the news New York Times, The Washington Post, or any of the TV networks, ABC, CBS, a b NBC?
一条都没有。
Not one.
《纽约时报》或《华盛顿邮报》刊登的仅是质疑性的评论文章，由专栏作家撰写，这些文章很容易被边缘化。
The only stories that have run-in The New York Times or The Washington Post are doubting op ed pieces run by opinion writers that are very easily marginalized.
你认为麦田圈存在的最佳假说是什么？
What do you believe to be the best hypothesis for why crop circles exist?
它们想传达什么信息？
What are they trying to convey?
它们的目的是什么？
What is their purpose?
我第一次去英国是在1992年，那是我第一年。
On my very first year and first trip to England, it was 1992.
当时我正站在一个巨大的图案旁，所有人都被它的规模和完美无瑕震惊了——没有脚印，1992年时这些图案令人惊叹，那时人们刚开始关注这类现象。
And I was out in one of the big patterns that left everybody awestruck because the size and the perfection, no footprints, they were astonishing in 1992 at sort of the beginning of people paying attention.
这时有个人走到我身边，评论说：‘这太惊人了，不是吗？’
And a man walked over to where I was, and he was making comments about, It's remarkable, isn't it?
甚至还有三层结构。
There's even three or four layers.
还有编织的痕迹。
There's braiding.
于是我们现在开始讨论这种图案中令人惊叹的细节。
And so, we're now talking about the astonishing details in a formation.
然后他说：‘你知道吗？我认识一个在中央情报局工作的人。’
And then he said, Well, you know, I know somebody who works for the Central Intelligence Agency.
他很可能就是在说自己。
He was probably talking about himself.
我也有过这样的经历。
I've had that experience.
会有一些在情报部门工作的人说，我认识一个在情报部门工作的人，但通常这都是他们自己的第一手信息。
There will be people who are working in Intel and they'll say, Somebody I know who works in Intel, but it's usually their firsthand information.
他告诉我，他们对这些麦田圈非常感兴趣，并且现在拥有一颗卫星，正在试图拍摄全球每一个麦田圈的图像，因为他们坚信我们所面对的是一种来自其他智慧生命的数学语言，这种语言通过麦田圈来评估他们时间旅行的准确性。
He told me that they're very interested in these crop formations and that they've got a satellite now that is trying to get satellite images of every crop formation that is happening on the world because they are convinced that what we are dealing with is mathematical language from another intelligence that is using the crop formations to judge the accuracy of their travel in time.
你能解释一下吗？
Can you explain that?
他基本上是说，我们美国中央情报局已经得出结论：这些令人惊叹的麦田圈是来自地球之外的某种存在，用这种数学语言在地球表面留下痕迹，以测试他们的时间旅行技术。
Well, he was basically saying that our government in the CIA had come to the conclusion that the astonishing crop formations would be somebody, not earth, somebody else's test of a time travel technology that was leaving this mathematical language on the surface of the earth.
我提起这件事，是因为这是我第一次去英国时，与任何人进行的最早讨论之一。
And I bring that up because that was one of the first discussions that I ever had with anybody on my very first trip to England.
这定下了一个基调：在1992年，当你身处麦田圈中时，那时还没有后来在1995年和1996年涌入田野的那些所谓的撒旦恶作剧者，他们显然是故意想要破坏或做些什么。
And it set a tone that when you were in those crop formations in 'ninety two, this is before all of the team Satan hoaxers that came into the fields in 'ninety five and 'ninety six, and were apparently deliberately trying to destroy or whatever they were doing.
1992年是麦田圈非常纯粹的一年。
'ninety two was a year where crop formations were, it was very pure.
那时候没有恶作剧者。
There were no hoaxers.
那时候还没有人知道几年后会发生什么。
There were nothing about what would come three or four years later.
那个男人跟我谈起这个想法，说我们可能正在面对一种用于测试时间旅行的数学语言，对我来说，这简直是一种突如其来的震撼。
And that man talking to me about the idea that we could be looking at a mathematical language that was being used to test time travel, for me, it was like a sudden, wow.
我以前从来不会这样看待麦田圈。
I never ever would have thought that way about crop formations.
所以他送给了我一份礼物。
And so, he gave me a gift.
那是我第一次旅行，也是我进入的最早的麦田圈之一。
It was first trip, one of the first formations I was in.
我记住了那次对话。
I have that discussion.
它彻底改变了我对麦田圈的看法，我对此深表感激，因为后来我前往英国研究麦田圈，为密歇根州的生物物理学家采集土壤和种子样本。
And it so stretched my mind to looking at crop formations differently for which I'm very grateful because eventually I was in England studying crop formations, doing soil collections, seed collections for the biophysicists in Michigan, W.
C。
C.
爱与善。
Love And Good.
从1992年到大约1999年，每个夏天我都非常投入。
I was very, very involved every summer from 'ninety two until probably up through 1999.
我每年夏天都去，参与研究和科学分析，发现麦穗上有铁质涂层，而没人知道这是怎么形成的。
I went every summer and I was involved in the studies and the scientific analysis and how we found there was coatings of iron on seed heads that no one knew how all of it.
最终，我想说，我亲自用手触摸过、用脚走过那些编织般的图案，它们就像完美的编织，但直径有300英尺或500英尺。
And eventually I would say that I personally had in my hands walked with my feet through woven, where it would be just like a perfect if you were weaving, but 300 feet in diameter or 500 feet in diameter.
这些图案可以非常巨大。
The patterns could be huge.
有着完美的编织结构，但不仅仅是表面的编织。
With perfect weaving, but it would be not just the surface weaving.
你会蹲下，把表面掀起来，发现下面的结构就像一条编织好的辫子。
You would get down and lift up the surface that would be woven just like a braid.
然后还会有另一层，以90度角延伸，你可以把这层掀起来。
And then there would be a whole other layer that was coming at 90 degree angles, and you would lift that up.
有些地方要往下挖12英寸才能接触到土壤。
Some of these were 12 inches down before you could get to soil.
是的。
Yeah.
每一层大约两到三英寸厚，总共四到五层，每层的角度和图案都不同，深度达到四到五层。
And every layer, maybe two or three inches times four or five, it would be a different angle, different pattern, and it would be four or five deep.
天哪，人们是怎么做到的，却一点痕迹都没留下？
How in the world would anybody do that and not leave tracks?
我觉得，那一年——1992年，当我和一群人前往米克山时，我的认知发生了根本性的转变。那里每年都会出现麦田怪圈，后来才被证实。
And I think that it really shifted into a whole other gear for me that year in 'ninety two when I went with a group to Milk Hill, a place where there were crop formations every year, it turned out later.
那是我们看到的第一个图案。
And it was our very first pattern.
我们结识了一些来自美国和英国的人。
We had met people from The United States and England.
你们停在山顶上，然后走进山顶上白马所在的地方，接着往下看这个图案。
And you parked up here on top of the hill and you came into the top of the hill where the white horse was, and then you're looking down on this.
它有400英尺长，我想是430英尺，比一个足球场还大。
It was a 400, I think it was four thirty feet long, bigger than a football field.
这是由螺旋形的圆圈和路径组成的。
And this was spirals of circles and paths.
它非常巨大。
It was huge.
这是第一个麦田圈。
This is the very first crop formation.
我沿着一条小径走下去，因为我们所有人都想确保农民知道我们不会踩踏任何庄稼。
And I started down one of the tram lines because we were all trying to make sure the farmers knew that we were not going to tread on any crop.
我沿着一条小径走下去。
And I started down one of the tram lines.
我身后的一群人则开始走不同的小径。
And the group behind me, they started going down different tram lines.
所以我们每个人都是通过不同的小径走向这个巨大的图案。
So each one of us was coming down to this huge formation in different tram lines.
当我走到我想进入的位置时，根据我从上方看到的情况，我的35毫米尼康相机正挂在我的脖子上。
And when I got down to where I wanted to try to walk in based on what I'd seen from above, I had my 35 millimeter Nikon hanging around my neck.
我在美国从事其他工作时学到过，无论我做什么，比如动物残杀事件或其他事情，我都会这样做。
And I had learned in other work that I had done in The United States, I would always come in anything I was doing, animal mutilations or whatever.
我会把相机举起来，在靠近时就开始拍照。
I would bring the camera up and I would start taking photos as I approached.
我发现这些照片对我的研究非常有价值，这就是我所做的。
And I found those photographs to be so valuable to me in research, and that's what I did.
所以，我现在正走向这个巨大作物图案的边缘，举起相机拍照。
So, I'm walking to the edge now of this big crop formation, and I'm lifting up and taking photos.
我的意图是穿过边缘进入图案内部，拍摄特写镜头。
And my intent was to go through the edge now onto this formation and take closeups.
当我开始试图穿过边缘时，感觉就像温热的果冻。
And as I started to try to move through the edge, it was like a warm Jell O.
我感觉到自己走进了作物图案边缘处某种有实质感的东西。
It's what it felt like that I walked into something that had substance right along the edge of this crop formation.
于是我停下脚步，往后退，伸出手去，又能触碰到它。
And I stopped and backed up and reached out and I could touch it again.
它感觉就像温热的果冻。
It felt like warm Jell O.
我感到非常困惑。
And I was so puzzled.
因为我要往那边走，所以其他人都在另一边的远处。
And everybody else was at the far end this way because I was going to that way.
因此，我没有和任何人交谈。
So, I wasn't talking with anybody.
我拿起相机，拍得比平时更高了。
And I came up with my camera and I went like higher than I would've.
然后我开始拍照。
And I started taking photos.
当我这么做时，我向前移动，感觉到一种释放，仿佛有什么东西放开了那团温暖的果冻。
And as I did, I moved forward and I felt a release, like something let go of whatever this warm Jell O was.
当我走进这个圆圈时，突然觉得我几乎是在侵犯什么。
And when I walked into now the circle, I suddenly felt like that I was almost violating.
我弯下腰，这是最开始的那个麦田圈，我感受到有七层结构。
And I bent down, and this was the one crop formation right at the beginning, that I felt seven layers.
有七层以不同的90度角相互交叉，一直延伸到深处。
There were seven layers crossed with different 90 degree angles all the way down.
我蹲下来，直到能接触到泥土。
And I went down to where I could get dirt.
我能用手指感觉到泥土。
I could feel dirt with my fingers.
泥土一直堆到我的肘部这里。
And it was up to here on my elbow.
所以，它有那么深。
So, it was that deep.
人们以为它们是平的。
People think they're flat.
不，有很多很多复杂的层次。
No, many, many, many complex layers.
所以，琳达，我认为你和那个提出这个观点的人类似，他认为圆圈是一种校准技术的产物，而非有意沟通的迹象。
So, now Linda, I think similarly to you in that person who came up with the idea that this is some Rather an intent to communicate, it's an artifact of a calibration technique that the crop circles are.
那是什么让他这么想的呢？
So what led him to think that?
是那个来找我、说他认识CIA的人吗？
The man who approached me and said that he knew somebody in the CIA?
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
我的整个职业生涯中，每当我开始深入研究某件事、进行调查时——无论你怎么解释——总会有人提供一些关键信息。
I mean, in all of my professional career, it seems to me that when you begin intensely studying something, investigating, however you explain it, there will be people who end up giving you information that becomes a key.
我一次又一次地经历过这种事，几乎有时感觉像是有人在引导我去关注那些我原本不会注意的事物。
I have experienced that over and over and over, Almost sometimes as if there is a sense of being directed to look at things that you would not normally.
那为什么会发生这种情况？
And why does that happen?
我不知道。
I don't know.
但在那些农田图案出现的那天，我想起有多少人走进农田图案后会说出X、Y或Z，然后你就会学到新东西，并不断深入下去。
But in crop formations in that day, I think back of how many people would end up walking into a crop formation and saying X, Y, or Z, and then you are learning something new and you just keep going deeper and deeper and deeper.
还有我和W一起做的所有那些工作。
And all that work that I did with W.
C。
C.
Lovingood收集土壤、种子、植物，以及我们持续了至少十年的各类工作。
Lovingood doing and collecting soil and seeds and plants and all of the things that we did for at least a decade.
他是一位非常非常细致、专注的科学家。
He was a very, very detailed, intense scientist.
他逐渐确信，有能量系统正从电离层穿过，并且它们在旋转。
He became convinced that there were energy systems that were coming through the ionosphere and that they were spinning.
他给出了所有严谨的物理学依据，来解释他为何得出这些结论。
And he gave all of the hard physics reasons for why he came to those conclusions.
他正在撰写自己的独立论文。
And he was doing his own independent paper.
后来我们了解到，另一位荷兰的物理学家也在收集土壤、植物和样本，就像我为利文古德博士所做的那样。
And then we learned that another physicist in Holland also had been collecting soil, plants, and samples like like I was doing for Doctor.
利文古德。
Levingood.
这两位生物物理学家最终都发表了论文，得出相同的结论：有带电粒子形成的旋转涡流从天而降，这些带电粒子影响了植物的直立或倒伏状态。
And both of these biophysicists end up producing papers with the same conclusion that there were spinning vortices of charged particles that were coming down and that the charged particles were then affecting the plants in whether they were gonna stand or go down.
而这些复杂图案的形成，是由他们认为从电离层中涌出的旋涡模式所指示的。
And that the complexity of the patterns was signaled by what they thought was happening in the swirling patterns coming from the ionosphere.
两位完全不同的科学家分别撰写了这些论文。
So two completely different scientists did these papers.
我有幸与这两位科学家见面并合作。
I got to meet and work with both of them.
我的观点是，此前没有任何先例。
And my point is there was no precedent.
这一切都依赖于那些拥有物理学和生物学背景的人，他们对编织现象、90度角以及这些麦田圈中固有的所有几何与数学规律产生了浓厚兴趣，从而吸引了专业的生物物理学家，并最终发表了论文，引发了一个问题：是什么导致了从电离层向下旋转的复杂能量体，贯穿整个星球的农田？
This was all dependent upon people who had physics backgrounds, biology backgrounds, who became so interested in the phenomena of weaving, 90 degree angles, all of the geometry and math that seemed to be inherent in these crop formations that attracted men who were professional in biophysics and then ended up producing papers that led to a question, what would cause a spinning complex of energy coming down through the ionosphere that would go all the way down to crops in fields all over the planet?
这并不仅仅发生在英格兰。
This was not happening just in England.
此前从未有人面对过这样的信息。
And no one had even confronted such information before.
我们来谈谈1975年你被绑架时的一些视觉细节。
Let's talk about some of the visual aspects of what happened when you were abducted in 1975.
你提到，从视觉上看，它们看起来像人类。
So you mentioned that visually they looked like humans.
我记得你在乔·罗根节目中描述过它们是
And I believe on Joe Rogan you described them as
等一下，等一下。
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
类人形。
Humanoid.
类人形。
Humanoid.
“类人形”并不意味着看起来像我所在城镇里路上经过的普通人。
Humanoid does not mean looking like people that pass on the street in my town.
“类人形”指的是有两只手臂、两条腿、头顶一个头，眼睛长在正面，而不是像大螃蟹或蟑螂那样的东西。
Humanoid means two arms, two legs, a head on top, eyes in front, rather than being looking like a large crab or cockroach or something of that nature.
所以很多人对此有误解。
So a lot of people have misconception.
灰色外星人是类人形的，此外还有一些其他生物，如果它们是活体的话，被带进来是为了打断我的反抗。
The greys are humanoid, and then there were other beings that are, if they were living beings, that were brought in in order to interrupt my combativeness.
我当时在和他们搏斗。
I was, fighting them.
我认为他们的目的是完成必要的治疗或修复。
And I think the effort was to complete, healing or repairs that needed to be made.
我太害怕了，所以不允许这种情况发生。
And I was so terrified, I wasn't allowing that.
所以我指的是那些被带进来的人。
So those people who were brought in is who I'm referring to.
你说他们看起来就像城市里普通的路人，你根本看不出他们有什么不同。
You said that they look like people that would pass as regular people just at the in a cityscape, you wouldn't be able to point them out as being different.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，这有助于让我平静下来并配合。
And, you know, that, of course, would fulfill the purpose of getting me to calm down and cooperate.
所以这是你的推测，但你并不完全确定他们是被引入来安抚你、作为抗焦虑手段的吗？
So that's you thinking perhaps that's the reason, but you're not 100% sure that if they were there to be introduced to calm you as an anxiolytic?
也许当时确实有一些持续进行的事情，但毫无疑问，这改变了我的应对方向，因为我非常害怕这些生物。
Well, it's possible that there was some sort of ongoing thing, but it definitely changed the direction of my efforts because I was terrified of these creatures.
我认为这是非常具有威胁性和令人恐惧的事情，我绝不会配合。
This was something I viewed as very threatening and frightening, and I wasn't about to cooperate.
现在，许多关于这些生物的遭遇故事描述它们具有心灵感应或能使用心灵控制的能力。
Now, many stories of encounters with these beings describe them as being telepathic or being able to use mind control.
但我没有感受到任何类似的东西。
But I I didn't sense anything of that sort.
但我要说明的是，根据我个人的理论——当然不能确定——是那股能量冲击可能破坏了那种联系。
But, I'm explaining that in my own personal theory, can't say for sure, of course, is that being hit by that blast of energy, impaired that connection, you know, potentially.
你觉得意识和大脚怪之间有什么联系？
What do you see as the connection between consciousness and Bigfoot?
这是个大问题。
That's a big question.
大脚怪现象是个无底洞。
The Bigfoot phenomenon is a rabbit hole.
一个被冰覆盖、上面还浇了油的无底洞。
A rabbit hole covered in ice with grease poured over top of it.
这真的非常滑。
It's really slippery.
一旦你掉进这个兔子洞，它就会引向另外一百个兔子洞。
And once you go down that rabbit hole, it leads off to a 100 other rabbit holes.
所以你提出的问题很有趣，因为对这一现象感兴趣的人，最初都是在寻找一只又大又毛的猿猴。
So the question you ask is interesting because the journey of someone who wants who's interested in that phenomenon starts off looking for a big hairy ape.
这真的很聪明。
That's really smart.
如果你深入探究，很快就会离开这个最初的认知框架。
If you dig deep enough, you leave that school pretty quickly.
它不再仅仅是大毛猿——巨猿，那个看起来很聪明的生物。
It's no longer Gigantopithecus, the big hairy ape that's really smart.
相反，你会开始想，等等，然后不断冒出一连串的‘等等’，伴随着各种属性，包括潜在的心灵感应、隐身能力，以及各种操控能量的方式等等。
And instead, you start going wait a minute, and then you keep having a whole bunch of wait a minutes with attributes, various attributes, including potential telepathy, and cloaking and all sorts of, you know, various versions of manipulating energy and so on.
所以，我认为关于大脚怪的意识，首先，根本没人知道它们到底是什么。
So, I think consciousness in Bigfoot, where it lands, first of all, nobody has a freaking clue what these are.
但这种现象规模足够大。
But the phenomenon is big enough.
数百年到数千年，众多文化都持相同说法，还有数以万计的目击传闻，包括各种 sightings。
Hundreds of years to thousands of years, hundreds of cultures, all saying the same thing by the way, and tens of thousands of anecdotal references, including sightings.
有什么东西在那里。
Something's there.
我的问题是，别只盯着大脚怪。
My question is, never mind just Bigfoot.
如果这种生物真的存在，而我能再次找到它们，那么还有什么东西可能存在？
If that species is out there and I can come back to them, what else is out there?
我的意思是，你不能一看到大脚怪就说：好了，大脚怪找到了，我可以回家了。
I mean, you can't just go, okay, so there's Bigfoot, I'm going home now.
你应该说：如果大脚怪存在，那还有什么别的东西？
Say, well, if there's Bigfoot, what else?
很多可能性就此打开了。
And a lot of possibilities open up.
例如，我认为这种被称为大脚怪的物种确实有可能存在，还有萨斯夸奇以及其他各种名称，它们可能是人们所描述的所有这些特质的集合，包括心灵感应能力、隐形能力，而有一位先生曾提出一个理论，我认为至今仍有一定道理。
For example, I think that the potentiality is there for this species nicknamed Bigfoot, but for example, Sasquatch and whatever the different names of them, to be a culmination of all of these attributes people talk about, which would include psychic abilities, the ability of telepathy, which would include cloaking abilities, which now one gentleman had a theory that I still think holds some weight.
他的妻子属于一类极度聪慧的自闭症患者，他们的天赋自闭症赋予了他们超凡的捉迷藏能力。
His wife was simply a species of intensely savant autistic individuals and their savant autism gave them such extraordinary ability of hide and seek.
此外，他们还具备天赋的心灵感应能力，并且懂得如何操控自身的能量、自身的生命力。
And on top of that a savant ability of telepathy and savant ability and they have the they understood how to manipulate their own energy, their own life force energy.
在我看来，如果我们讨论的是人类心智的潜力，这一切都是可能的；但一旦提到大脚怪，就立刻被当成胡说八道。
To me, all of that's possible if we're talking about the potentiality of the human mind, but the minute you throw a big foot into it, oh, that's just nonsense.
没错。
Exactly.
你怎么能
How do you
确定它不是
know it's not
一种远超我们的物种呢？
a species that's way ahead of us?
好吧，他们不会创作交响乐。
Okay, they don't compose symphonies.
他们也不会制造飞机和汽车。
They don't build airplanes and cars.
我明白这一点。
I get that.
但这并不意味着他们不能做所有这些其他事情。
That doesn't mean they can't do all these other things.
所以我其实没有回答你的问题，因为我也不知道意识和大脚怪之间的比较答案。
So I didn't really answer your question because I don't know the answer to the comparison of consciousness and Bigfoot.
我所暗示的是，如果它们存在，它们处于一个我们远远无法理解或把握的存在领域。
What I'm suggesting is they, if they exist, they are in a realm of existence that we are far from grasping or understanding.
它们在某些方面比我们先进得多，但在其他方面却远远落后于我们。
And they're farther ahead than we are in certain levels, just way behind us at other levels.
我问这个问题的原因是，莱斯，你并没有贬低大脚怪这个话题。
Why I'm asking is Les, you don't disparage the Bigfoot topic.
我不贬低UFO这个话题，尽管科学界很多人会这么做。
I don't disparage the UFO topic even though plenty of the scientific community would.
而且我非常确定我是受到你的启发。
And I I'm pretty sure I was inspired by you.
但不管怎样，抱歉从你那里借鉴了这个观点，偷了你自己的东西。
But either way so if sorry for stealing that from you, stealing your own
没关系。
That's okay.
好的。
Okay.
不管怎样，当我以前听你的播客或你关于某些大脚怪节目的评论时，我有些不同意见要和你讨论，不过我现在先放一放。
Either way, when I was listening to I believe it was some of your podcasts or your commentary on some of the Bigfoot episodes before, which I have my bone to pick with you, man, which I'm gonna put as an aside right now.
我想告诉你，我睡觉前常常听你的节目。
I'm gonna tell you that as I fall asleep, I used to listen to your shows.
然后，是的，
And and then right and
我有失眠症。
I have insomnia.
每当我快要睡着的时候，你就会吹口琴，我简直在骂你。
And right when I'm about to fall asleep, you'd play the harmonica, and I'm and I'm just cursing you.
我一直在想，真希望有人能给那些口琴段落打上时间戳，这样我就能在那之后开始了。
And I'm just wishing man, I wish someone time stamp when those harmonicas are so that I could Yeah.
从那之后直接开始。
Start it from right after.
不管怎样，先搁置这个话题。
Either way, bracket that.
我听你说话的时候，记得你说过类似这样的话，好吧。
I was listening to you, and I believe you said something like, okay.
我走进了树林里。
I went out into the woods.
我当时在拍摄大脚怪。
I was filming for Bigfoot.
我觉得这发生在剧集结束之后很久。
I think this is way after the series.
你当时在拍摄大脚怪。
You're filming for Bigfoot.
那件事并没有发生。
Didn't occur.
所以你心想，听说有些故事里，它们能通过摄像头感知到周围发生的事，或者以某种方式察觉到。
So you thought, you know, there are stories that they can hear what's going on with the cameras or sense it in some manner.
那我为什么不把摄像头关掉，也许还做一些冥想练习，这就是为什么我提到了意识，一些冥想练习。
So why don't I turn the cameras off, perhaps even do some meditation exercise, which is why I brought up consciousness, some meditative exercise.
然后你看到了光球。
And then you saw orbs.
然后我觉得，当我听你说话时，你说你还不能谈这件事，因为你刚经历过，还在消化中。
And then I think when I was listening to you, you said, I can't talk about it yet because you had just gone through that experience and you were processing it.
我这么说对吗？
Now am I correct?
如果我没错的话，你能向观众重新准确地复述一下我刚才可能说错的内容吗？
And if I am correct, can you just reiterate to the audience correctly what I just perhaps incorrectly stated?
不。
No.
那完全正确。
That was all correct.
那是来自波特兰那一集的内容。
That was, from the Portland episode.
那是我拍摄的最后一段视频。
It was the last thing I ever filmed.
它不属于完整系列，但现在在YouTube上可以看到。
It was outside of the full series, but it's on YouTube now.
是的。
Yeah.
我最好的点子大多不是在采访中产生的。
Most of my best ideas don't happen during interviews.
我的大部分点子都是自发产生的，通常是在洗澡时，或者散步时。
They come spontaneously, most of the time in the shower actually or while I'm walking.
在没有剧情框架之前，我经常失去这些点子，因为当我写下一半时，它们就已经消失了。
Until I had plot, I would frequently lose them because by the time I write down half of it, it's gone.
我以前试过用语音捕捉，比如谷歌家庭，但它总是在中途把我打断。
I tried voice capture before like Google Home, and it just cuts me off in the middle.
这太让人沮丧了。
It's so frustrating.
我的大部分点子并不是那种十秒钟的简短语录。
Most of my ideas aren't these ten second sound bites.
它们是深思熟虑的。
They're ponderous.
它们冗长啰嗦，而且我会绕来绕去。
They're long winded, and I wind around.
它们是发散性的。
They're discursive.
它们长达五分钟。
They're five minutes long.
苹果笔记，甚至谷歌留念，那里的语音转文字效果都很差。
Apple Notes, even Google Keep, the transcription there is horrible.
但Plot让我想说多久就说多久，而且不会被打断。
But plot lets me talk for as long as I want, and there's no interruptions.
这是精准的记录。
It's accurate capture.
它把所有内容整理成清晰的摘要、关键要点和待办事项。
It organizes everything into clear summaries, key takeaways, action items.
我甚至可以稍后回来，说：嘿。
I can even come back later and say, hey.
我之前聊过的关于意识和信息的那个话题是什么来着？
What was that thread I was talking about regarding consciousness and information?
事实上，这一集下面就有Plot生成的摘要，我现在就在用它。
In fact, this episode itself has a plot summary below, and I'm using it right now over here.
我的个人工作流程是启用了他们的自动流转功能，所以每当我记下笔记时，它都会给我发一封邮件。
My personal workflow is that I have their auto flow feature enabled, so it sends me an email anytime I take a note.
看。
Look.
我只需一按，它就能立即启动，像现在这样无延迟地开始录音，这一点被严重低估了。
The fact that I can just press it and it turns on instantly, like right now, it's starting to record without a delay, is extremely underrated.
顺便说一下，这个是Note Pro，这个是Note Pin。
This, by the way, is the Note Pro, and then this is the Note Pin.
我两个都有。
I have both.
全球有超过一百五十万人在使用Plaud。
Over 1,500,000 people use Plaud around the world.
如果你的工作依赖于对话或对话后产生的想法，那就值得一试。
If your work depends on conversations or the ideas that come after them, it's worth checking out.
访问 plaud.ai/toe。
That's plaud.ai/toe.
结账时使用代码 TOE 可享受 10% 折扣。
Use code TOE for 10% off at checkout.
发生了什么？
What occurred?
你现在能谈谈吗？
Can you talk about it now?
嗯，其实我并不介意。
Well, yeah, I don't mind really.
说实话，这并没有那么难。
It it it's it's not that difficult to be honest with you.
但完整的故事，其实是关于心灵感应的潜力以及这个特定物种的故事。
But the full story, it's really it's the story of of the potentiality of of of mental telepathy and this particular species.
你看，当我还在田纳西州时，那个田纳西州的事件，你要是想回顾，可以回去再看那一集。
You see, when I was in Tennessee, in the episode in Tennessee, and you wanna go back and watch that episode for example.
我讲过这个故事，最近还在《大脚怪奥德赛》播客里讲过。
And I've told this story, I told it just recently on Sasquatch Odyssey, a podcast.
总之，我当时正沿着小径往外走，这辈子从未经历过任何类型的灵异或心灵感应现象。
Bottom line was that I was walking on the trail on the way out and never ever before in my life have I ever experienced any kind of psychic or telepathic phenomenon of any sort whatsoever.
我当时既没吸毒，也没喝酒，也不累。
And I wasn't high and I wasn't drunk and I wasn't tired.
我走着走着，突然有一个强有力的声音在我脑海中响起。
I'm walking out and I just had this powerful voice speak to me inside my head.
这声音如此强烈，以至于事后我特意去看了心理咨询师，确认自己没有精神分裂，因为那经历真的让我深受震撼。
And so much so that after the fact, I actually went in to see a counselor to make sure I wasn't schizophrenic because it hit me that hard.
我想，我必须弄清楚到底发生了什么。
I thought, I got to know what's going on here.
心理咨询师安慰我说，不，你离精神分裂还远着呢。
You know, and the counselor reassured me that, no, you're far from schizophrenic.
别担心这件事。
Don't worry about that.
你所经历的，是一种馈赠。
What you received was a gift.
你应该为此感到欣喜，并且充分意识到这一点。
And you should just celebrate that fact and be really aware of that.
然后这件事又发生了两次。
And then it happened another two times.
至于你提到的波特兰那次，发生的情况是，我觉得我在这期节目里没说过这个。
And then for the Portland one that you're referencing, what happened there was I don't think I said this in the show.
但首先，我通过心灵感应把我的能量和想法传递给了那个区域的大脚怪，据一位女士说，她能与它们进行心灵沟通。
But first of all, I put my energy my thought energy out there telepathically to the Sasquatch in that area that I was told were there by a woman who has telepathic communication with them, she says.
所以我知道，我说了：‘我要来见你们了。’我提前大约一周这么做，后来我开始感觉到，仿佛在我的脑海中得到了回应。
So I you know said, you know I'm coming to meet you and I did this for about a week ahead of time and I started to at one point feel like I was getting an answer if you will in my brain.
好吧，行。
Okay fine.
于是我现在去了那里，走进丛林，当时那个光球现象已经发生，后来我躺在地上睡觉，正要迷迷糊糊睡着时，耳边传来篝火轻微的噼啪声。
So now I so now I go up there and I go out in the bush and I'm and I'm the orb thing had happened and later on I'm just sleeping on the ground and I was starting to doze off and that little crackling fire going.
突然间，我感觉到一股非常温暖、甚至有点柔软毛茸茸的东西，虽然也可能是别的东西，但它从我的脚踝上掠过，把我脚踝翻转了一下，把我惊醒了，我立刻跳了起来，感觉就像一只温暖而宽大的手轻轻翻动了我的脚踝，我立刻惊醒。
And all of a sudden I felt a very warm and actually felt a bit soft and furry so it could have been anything but it basically went over my ankle and flipped my ankle enough that it woke me up and I jumped up immediately and it felt like a nice big warm hand flipping my ankle over and I jumped up immediately.
我没看到任何东西。
I didn't see anything.
快进到第二天早上，我们走出去时又遇到了那位女士，我们本来也打算找她。
Fast forward to the next morning we're walking out, we run into the lady again, we were planning on anyway we see her.
我并没有告诉她这件事，但她却说她称他为守护者。
I did not tell her this And she says she called him Guardian.
所以她已经给他取了个名字。
So she's she's given it a minute.
我正在和守护者交谈，他告诉我，昨晚他过来碰了你。
I was speaking with Guardian, and he told me that during the night he came over and touched you.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那你对此有什么反应？
And what do you do with that?
就在第二天早上，她告诉我这件事，而那时我还没跟她说过。
She just that was the next morning she said that to me after it actually happened and I hadn't told her.
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是的。
Mhmm.
这些事情在我一生中发生过大约四次，而且都不是我刻意为之的。
And those things have happened to me about four times in my life without forcing it.
很多时候什么都不会发生。
Lots of times nothing happens.
也要记住这一点：有时候你讲这些故事，别人会以为怪事一直在发生，但其实大多数时候什么都没发生。
It's the thing to remember too sometimes you tell these stories and people think oh shit's going on all the time but most of the time nothing's ever happening.
你看，这些是多年来发生的事件，我有过四次心灵感应的经历。
See, these are occurrences that have happened over a number of years I've had four telepathic experiences.
不管怎样，这就是那个节目里发生的事。
Anyway, so that's what happened though of that particular show.
当时我认为自己还没准备好在镜头前谈论这件事，所以没有提出来。
And I don't think I at the time was ready to talk about that on camera, and I didn't mention it.
因为如果我提了，人们就会说：他疯了。
Because if I mention it, people go, he's losing it.
对吧？
Right?
我害怕的是 Screw
And I fear Screw
你。
you.
嘲笑。
Ridicule.
是的。
Yep.
与其说是害怕和嘲笑。
Not so much fear and ridicule.
不。
No.
我害怕的不是嘲笑。
It's not the ridicule I fear.
是他们无法应对完整的故事。
It's their inability to handle the full story.
是的，我说这话时是在贬低他们。
And yes, I'm belittling them when I say that.
是的，我说这话时听起来有点居高临下，但管他们呢。
Yes, I sound a little condescending when I say that but screw them.
如果我只是说，嘿，来跟我聊聊。
If I just say, hey, to talk to me.
谁啊，然后大家都开始笑，好吧，你知道吗？
Who and all the chuckles starts like, okay, you know what?
但我对很多人这么说时，他们会说：真的吗？
But I could say that to a lot of people that go, really?
告诉我发生了什么。
Tell me what happened.
这才是我愿意分享的人。
That's a person I like to share with.
没关系。
Is okay.
所以，在你外出经历那个球体的一周前，你是否进行过一些练习，比如通过意念和冥想试图联系大脚怪？
So let's say a week prior to you going out and experiencing that orb, you were doing some exercises where you were trying to contact Bigfoot via intention and meditating, something like that?
更多是通过心灵感应的直接沟通，具体来说就是说话。
More via psychic outreach, like specifically speaking.
我试过好几次，但从未发生过任何事，不过有几次我确实得到了回应。
So I've done it several times and and nothing's ever happened, but a couple of times I have gotten an answer.
有一次，事情还挺搞笑的。
One time it was actually rather quite funny.
我会去徒步旅行。
I would go on a hike.
所以人们都在想知道该怎么做到这一点。
So people are wondering how to do this.
我的意思是，我会去徒步，如果我想互动，就会直接说出来，比如：我知道你出来了。
I mean, will go on a hike and I will just if I want an interaction, would just put it out there and just say, know, I'm coming out.
我打算去某个区域徒步，你知道，不确定有没有人在那里，但如果有，我会带着爱欢迎任何互动。
I'm gonna be hiking in an area, you know, don't know if anybody's even there but if someone is there, I would be welcoming in love to have some kind of interaction.
然后通常我什么都没等到。
And then often as I and nothing.
好吧，我就继续往前走。
Okay, and I just go ahead and I just go ahead.
但有一次，突然在我脑子里响起了‘不谢谢，我们在睡觉’。
One time though, bam in the middle of my head, all I got was no thanks, we're sleeping.
我的意思是，这真是最疯狂的事。
I mean, it's just the craziest thing.
而且再次提醒，第一次发生这种事时，我去看了心理咨询师，我这一生总共就遇到过四次。
And again, remember the first time this happened, I went in to see a counselor, and I've only had this happen four times in my whole life.
好吧。
Okay.
但我跟你说，这种事情发生的时候，真是前所未有的奇怪。
But I tell you, is the strangest thing ever when it happens.
这太强烈了。
It's so strong.
任何在生活中拥有这种能力的人都会说，当然了。
Anyone who who is who has this as a skill in their life will just go, yeah, of course.
他们甚至不会对这种对话做出任何评判。
They wouldn't even they would accept this conversation with zero judgment.
现在，这四次发生时，每次都是单独的一句话吗？
Now these four times it's occurred to you, were they each single sentences?
就像，不，我们在睡觉？
Just like, no, we're sleeping?
还是是一整段话？
Or were they So the paragraphs
我来给你念一下当时的原话。
I'll give you the I'll give you I'll give you the scripts.
当然。
Sure.
第一次发生的时候，我们就在这儿。
The the the the first time was, we're right over here.
如果你想见我们，就住一晚吧。
If you wanna meet us, stay the night.
我回答说，这是田纳西州，我回答说，
To which I replied, this is Tennessee, to which I replied,
因为第一次发生这样的事时
because the first time anything
在我一生中，这种事情第一次发生，我吓坏了，脖子后面的汗毛都竖起来了。
like this ever happened in my life, and I was scared and the hair was back up on the back of my neck.
我从未有过这种感觉。
I had never felt that.
我说，我还没准备好。
And I said, I'm not ready.
他们说，没关系。
And they said, that's fine.
他们走开了。
And they walked away.
我心想，好吧，这件事一直在我脑子里。
And I, okay, that was in my mind.
这很酷。
That's cool.
当他们说‘我们在这儿’的时候，是给了你具体位置，还是只是说‘在这儿’，暗示他们就在你附近？
When they said we're here, did they give you a location or they said here and it was implied they were near you?
两者都有。
Both.
那个位置其实就是我从大约150英尺外就能看到的那座小山。
The location was basically the hill right over there that I could see from about 150 feet away.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
那地方一片漆黑。
That's pitch black.
我在这儿
I'm in
黑暗里。
the dark.
嗯。
Uh-huh.
我脑海中烙印着一幅画面：一个高大魁梧的男性身影和一个瘦小的孩子。
And the image in my brain that was seared in my brain was of a large hulking male figure and a small child.
有意思的人。
Interesting man.
典型的大脚怪模样。
In classic Bigfoot look.
好的。
Okay.
如果你愿意这么理解的话。
If you will.
这真的让我吓坏了，然后什么都没发生，我想过了几个星期，不，实际上是
And that really freaked me out And nothing and then I think a couple of well no, actually a
几个月过去了之后
few months went by after
那之后，下一次的经历就更有威胁性了。
that and the next one was a little more menacing.
那是在拍摄德克萨斯大脚怪 episode 的冥想过程中，那次我从未在镜头前告诉过任何人，但在冥想阶段，我确实收到了一个‘嗯，嗯，准备好，准备好’这样的信息，感觉非常阴森可怕，我不喜欢那种感觉。
It was during a meditative process on the Texas Bigfoot episode and that one I never told anybody on camera but there I did get during the meditation stage, I got a yeah, yeah, get ready, get ready for this was kind of sort of the message and it felt menacing and dark and I didn't like it.
我不喜欢，我只是心里默默说：不，不，不，不，我不要去那里。
I didn't, I just kind of like, no, no, no, no, not going here.
第三次是在俄勒冈，我脑中浮现的答案很简单：不，谢谢，别打扰我睡觉。
The third time was the in Oregon and it was the answer in my brain was simply, no, thanks for sleeping.
第四次是在波特兰 episode，那个存在基本上对我说：‘是的，是的，我们在这里。’
And the fourth time is the Portland episode where basically this particular being said, yeah, yeah, we're here.
我们已经准备好迎接你了。
We're ready for you.
你知道吗，那真是一次美妙的经历。
You know, and and that was a wonderful experience.
所以我是疯了吗？
So am I crazy?
我是疯了？还是那些都是幻觉？
Am I am I are they hallucinations?
这是清醒梦吗？
Is it lucid dreaming?
是 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah 吗？
Is it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
我不知道。
I don't know.
但我知道，在所有这些情况下，我都是完全清醒的，非常清醒，状态正常，而且并没有刻意在脑子里制造这些体验。
But I know that in all instances, I was wide awake, very sober, very straight and not trying to make this happen in my brain.
我试过很多次，但再也没有发生过任何事。
And I've tried many, many other times and nothing happens.
但这些时候，它们就像直接在你大脑中央灼烧一样。
But these times they just sears in the middle of your brain.
就是，你根本无法忽视它，你知道吗？
Can just, it's just, you can't not hear it, you know?
当你第一次有来回对话，或者至少你说了一句‘我觉得我还没准备好’的时候，
When the first time you had a back and forth or at least you said one statement, which is I don't think I'm ready.
你是在心里说的吗？
Did you say that in your mind?
你是大声说出来的吗？
Did you say it out loud?
你是怎么说出那句话的？
How did you say it?
是的。
Yep.
我在心里说的。
I say it in my mind.
所以有人会说，哦，是啊，当然。
And so someone's going, oh, yeah, sure.
他们会说英语？
They'd speak English?
当然，当然，当然。
Sure, sure, sure.
不。
No.
他们实际上是在进行一个过程，你的大脑会为你解读你该理解的内容。
What they do is it's a process of your mind deciphers for you what you're supposed to understand.
对我来说，如果我是中国人，那就会是普通话，你知道的，或者类似的语言。
And to me that if I was Chinese, it would be in Mandarin, you know, or something.
所以，是的。
So, so yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，所以，是的，就是这样。
So so so yeah, it's it's a that.
对。
Yeah.
所以你
So you
表达了你的意图。
gave your intention.
比如，嘿，我目前还没准备好。
Like, hey, I'm not ready currently.
好的。
Okay.
现在，他们多次跟你交流，你是立刻理解了，还是一步步理解的？
Now, they spoke to you all of these times, were they instantly understood, or were they understood linearly?
比如，你阅读时，是先理解第一个词，然后是下一个，再下一个，再下一个吗？
Like, when you read, you understand the first word and the next one and the next one and the next one?
还是说他们是一下子就把那句话对你说出来的？
Or was it all at once they said that sentence to you?
有趣的问题。
Interesting question.
这些句子太短了，以至于区分起来会非常困难。
The the sentences were short enough that the distinction would be too hard to make.
我不确定自己是能逐字逐句地理解，还是说是一下子全部理解的。
I'm not sure that I can decipher it linearly or in a linear fashion or if it was all at once.
实在太短了。
It was just too short.
好的。
Okay.
顺便说一下，原因是一些人，当他们与其他存在交流，或者说甚至遇到上帝时，感觉所有这些信息都是这样一次性传达给他们的。
As an aside, the reason is that some people, they speak to other beings or let's say even they have an encounter with God, it's as if all of that is said to them like that.
这并不是像你阅读时一个字一个字地读，而是瞬间理解整个词。
And it's not like it's like when you read one word, don't read each letter, you read the word instantly.
如果非要我做出区分，这就是我会说的。
If I if I was forced to make the distinction, that is what I would say.
我会说，感觉是一下子全部出现的。
I would say it feels like it's all at once.
只是因为句子太短了，所以情况差不多。
It's just that the sentences were short, so it same thing sort of thing.
我可以问你几个关于光球的细节吗？到底发生了什么？好吧。
Is it alright if I ask you a couple of details of the orbs Of what the heck happened Okay.
首先，光球有多大？是什么颜色的？
So firstly, how large were the orbs and what color were they?
它们是从哪里来的？
Where did they come from?
它们是什么时候出现的？
When did they come?
为什么？
Why?
而且，你可能无法回答为什么。
And, well, you won't be able to answer why.
我的意思是，当时我和德文在一起，因为德文那会儿和我在一起。
Well, I mean, I was we were Devin and I, because Devin was with me on that one.
我们正坐着，突然听到德文喊：‘莱斯，过来一下，你得看看这个。’
We were sitting, and I just hear Devin go, Hey, Les, come here, you got to look at this.
我当时也有过类似的经历。
And I and I have something like that.
于是我站起来，朝德文走过去，他离我大概三到五米远。
And I get up and I walk over to Devin, he's 10 feet away, 15 feet away.
在他大约十五英尺远的地方，有两个悬浮的光球。
And about 15 feet away from him were two hovering orbs.
一个像高尔夫球那么大，另一个像派盘那么大。
One the size of a golf ball, one the size of a pie plate.
那个像派盘大小的光球更加模糊，也更不清晰。
The pie plate one was much more fuzzy and less distinctive.
高尔夫球大小的那个更加集中一些，如果你懂我的意思的话。
The golf ball was more focused in, if you will.
它们就那样悬停在那里。
They stayed hovering there.
你可以看到它们的移动带着一种轻柔的悬浮感。
And you could see it like gentle hover in their movement.
但它们在同一个位置停留了大约十五到二十分钟。
But in the same position for I want to say a good fifteen-twenty minutes.
足够让我们仔细看，心想：是不是有车灯照在什么东西上？
Enough for us to look and go, there a car light splashing off something?
会不会是附近有什么？我的意思是，我们可是在森林深处啊，对吧？
Is there a local I mean, we're in the middle of the forest, right?
我们的眼睛是清醒的，你知道的，我们完全清醒，没抽烟也没喝酒，状态很清晰。
Our eyes are, you know, I mean, we're all clear again, straight, you know, no, we weren't smoking anything or drinking anything sober.
我认为，如果这种生物真的存在，这种现象其实是它的一种特性——能够显现或操控自身的生命能量。
And I think what's going on there, if this species truly exists, this phenomenon is actually something is that one of its attributes is its ability to manifest or ability to manipulate its own life force energy.
通过这种方式，它会呈现出一种物理形态，也就是我们看到的那体型庞大、毛发浓密的生物，它会散发气味、排泄、进食、尖叫，还会扔石头。
And in doing so, it has a physical manifestation, which is the big hairy creature we see that smells and shits and eats and screams and throws rocks.
而另一种形态可能是以光能形式存在，我们则会将其理解为光球。
And the other manifestation, which potentially could be as light energy, which we would then translate as being an orb.
而且第二天早上，我们从一位具有通灵和共情能力的女性那里得到了另一个信息，她说她被告知，有一些其他的存在——不是那个晚上要翻动我的人——而是在当晚早些时候来观察过我们。
And also the other message that we got the next morning from the woman who is an empath and a psychic with these beings, that she said that she was told that some of the others, not the one guy that's supposed to flip me over at night, but some of the others came to look at us in the earlier part of the night.
那时光球就出现了。
And that's when the orbs were there.
好的。
Okay.
光球是什么颜色的？
What color were the orbs?
两个都是同样的颜色吗？
Both the same color too?
像你衬衫那样的白色。
Like your shirt, whitish.
你听说过UFO和大脚怪之间有任何关联吗？
Have you heard of any connections between UFOs and Bigfoot?
当然，我经常听到人们这么说，经常，经常，经常。
Of course, I've had people I've heard people say that often, often, often, often.
我最疯狂的经历发生在拉迪姆斯普林斯的山上。
My first craziest experience was on the mountain in Radium Springs.
那里发生了一件事，我之前在节目中没有提到过，因为我不想让观众感到困惑。
And there was a scenario that happened there that I do not believe I mentioned on the show because I didn't want to confuse the viewers.
还有另一件事，有时候你得先让别人尝一口肉，才能给他们上牛排。
It's the other thing, Sometimes you you're forced before you feed somebody filet mignon, you've got to get them a taste of meat first.
好的。
All right.
你知道吗，那天晚上，我抬头看天空，看到了四个巨大的光点。
You know, and so that night, I looked over in the skies and I saw these four big lights.
它们巨大无比，排成一列，绝对不可能是飞机，但它们就在天上，持续了整整二十分钟。
They were massive, huge, and they were all lined up and they could not have been airplanes, but they were up in the sky and they were just there for twenty minutes.
然后我回去的时候，我
And then I went back and I'm
不确定
not sure
我去了哪里。
where I went to go.
也许我是去拿相机了。
Maybe I went to get my camera.
我回来了。
Came back.
它们就不见了。
They just they were gone.
它们消失了。
They disappeared.
我这辈子从未见过那样的东西。
And I've never seen anything like that in my entire life.
我当时就想，天哪。
And I'm just like, oh my god.
我当时在想，虽然现在回头看是这样，但当时我就觉得，哇，这太酷了。
And I can think, and this is but at the time, I'm just like, oh, this is cool.
那时候我心想，那到底是什么鬼东西？
What the hell is at the time, I'm like, what the hell is that?
那是你和德文在一起的那个晚上吗？还是另一个晚上？
And that was the night you were with Devon or that was a different night?
不，那是我一个人的晚上。
No, this is the night I'm alone.
那是拉迪姆斯普林斯的一座山上，山顶上，是我拍摄《幸存者》和《大脚怪》系列的其中一集。
This is on the mountain, top of mountain, a mountain in Radium Springs, but I was one of my Survive and Bigfoot episodes.
就是在那些光出现后的那个晚上，我感觉有什么东西进来，趴在我身上，而我当时正试图睡觉。
That was the night after those lights where I felt I'd had something come in and sit on top of me while I was trying to sleep.
每个人都会说那是老妇人综合征，是睡眠麻痹。
And everybody's going to say that's old lady syndrome, that's sleep paralysis.
我懂。
I get that.
我对这个很熟悉。
I'm familiar with that.
那晚我感受到的不是那样。
That is not what I felt that night.
感觉有个人用巨大的屁股坐在了我身上。
It felt like somebody was sitting on me with very large buttocks.
第二天早上，树上的那些苹果全都不见了，摄像头一直在录，却什么都没拍到。
And then that next morning, these apples had put on a tree, they all disappeared and the camera was filming, didn't catch anything.
就在镜头前凭空消失了。
Just disappeared on camera.
那一整晚都太诡异了。
You know, the whole night was freaked out.
但我想说的是，这一切是从天上那四个大灯开始的。
But my point is that it started with those big four lights in the sky.
你说过，UFO和大脚怪之间有联系。
And you said, you know, connection of UFOs to Bigfoot.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我真的不知道。
I really don't know.
关于大脚怪这个现象，一方面它是一种聪明的、毛茸茸的大猿猴。
The thing about it's the world of the phenomenon of Sasquatch is over on one side here, it's a big hairy ape that's smart.
而另一方面，它又是外星人，以及介于两者之间、能够穿越维度的存在。
And on this side, it's aliens and everything in between, you know, able to travel dimensions.
这就是你所说的，那个充满泥泞的、滑溜溜的兔子洞的意思吧。
That's what you meant by the slippery rabbit hole with mud and so on.
是的。
Yes.
不过我更想说的是，我所谓的兔子洞是指：如果真的存在大脚怪，那还有什么其他东西呢？
Although more so what I need, but what I mean by the rabbit hole is is my line of, well, if there is Sasquatch, what else is there?
嗯嗯。
Mhmm.
你听说过皮肤行者牧场吗？
Have you heard of Skinwalker Ranch?
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以你看，当我研究了一些关于UFO的内容后，我读到了关于皮肤行者牧场以及那里曾观测到传送门的事。
So see, when I was researching a bit about UFOs, then I read about Skinwalker Ranch and the fact that there have been observed portals.
不管这是否真实，确实有人观测到、感知到过传送门。
Whether or not this is true, there's been observed portals, perceived portals.
然后还有大脚怪出现，这个地方不仅有大量UFO活动，还有闹鬼现象。
And then Sasquatch coming out, and then this is a place where there's plenty of UFO activity and poltergeist activity as well.
所以这些无法解释的现象在这里汇聚在一起，非常奇特。
So strange confluence of all these unexplained phenomenon.
作为一名科学家，当你听到有人说，比如，意识与某种个人现象有什么关系时？
And as a scientist, when you hear about, let's say, well, what's consciousness have to do with someone's own phenomenon?
科学家们总是会说，我们有一种倾向，就是把所有无法解释的现象都归为一类。
The scientists would always say there's this tendency in us to say unexplained phenomenon here, unexplained phenomenon.
它们 somehow 是相关的，因为它们都未被解释，但这是一种愚蠢的错误。
Well, they're related somehow because they're both unexplained, and that's a foolish mistake.
但当谈到大脚怪和UFO时，或者说仅就大脚怪和UFO而言，似乎它们之间的联系远不止是人为牵强附会，因为每一种现象都充满疑问。
But when it comes to Bigfoot and UFOs and well, let's just say Bigfoot and UFOs, it seems as if it's more than just the connection being drawn because there's question marks over each.
换句话说，好吧。
In other words okay.
那你来深入聊聊这个观点吧。
Well, you wanna riff on that.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，不是。
Well, no.
但我只是觉得，存在远比我们人类那渺小的头脑所能理解的要宏大得多。
But I just think that I just think existence is so much bigger than our human, little human brains can comprehend.
关键是，这并不可怕。
And the thing is, it doesn't scare me.
深渊并不可怕。
The rabbit hole doesn't scare me.
我只是觉得，当然了。
It's just like, yeah, of course.
我的意思是，我们已经听过太多关于UFO的事了，如果明天真有一艘UFO降落在纽约，每个人都会说：哦，对啊，我就知道它们在那里。
I mean, we've had so much about UFOs that if a UFO landed in New York tomorrow, everybody would go, oh, yeah, I figured they were there.
我们经常遇到这种情况，你知道的，它就成了默认的共识。
We get a lot of that, you know, like, oh, it becomes the de facto.
当然，外星人是存在的。
Of course, the aliens exist.
我认识外星人。
I knew the aliens.
谁不认识呢？
Who who didn't know?
我知道。
I knew.
但我们其实并不了解。
But we don't really know.
我只是觉得，我的头脑一直都在想：这可能吗？
I just think my mind has always been, is this possible?
我脑海中提出的每一个问题，答案都可能是有可能的。
And the answer to every single question that that's asked on in my mind is could be.
是的。
Yep.
我对这个持完全开放的态度。
I'm wide open to it.
接下来我要说的这件事并不会让我害怕。
And here's the thing that doesn't scare me.
如果问题是这件事让很多人感到害怕的话。
And if the problem is that it scares a lot of people.
当然，很多宗教人士确实会被吓到，因为那样你就把撒旦牵扯进来了。
And certainly a lot of religious people really scares them because then you're going bring Satan into it.
对吧？
Right?
所以对我来说，关于它。
So to me, of it.
我只是不感到恐惧。
I just don't feel fear.
我并不是在逞强。
And I'm not being machismo.
我只是觉得可能性是无穷无尽的。
I just think the possibilities are endless.
这难道不很棒吗？
And isn't that awesome?
你是经历过恐惧然后设法克服了它，还是从性格上就不对这种情况感到害怕？
Have you felt the fear and then you managed to overcome it or just temperamentally, you don't feel the fear when it comes to that?
从性格上来说，我不会感到害怕。
Temperamentally, I don't feel the fear.
而且我也很清楚，如果明天我面对面遇到外星人，他、她或它都比我有巨大的优势。
And also, I'm well aware of the fact that if I was face to face with an alien tomorrow, he's got a or she or it has a huge advantage over me.
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
那我该怎么办呢？
So what am I going to do about it?
你知道吗，我到底能做些什么？
You know, what can I actually do?
去拿我的AK-47吗？
Go grab my AK-forty seven?
其实我想说，当然了。
Actually, want to say, of course.
抱歉，我应该退一步。
Sorry, I would step back.
我之所以这么说，是因为有一种观点认为，某些外星人怀有恶意或负面意图，而且他们无法读取我们的思想。
And the reason I say that is that there's some view that certain aliens have, let's say, evil intent or negative intent, and that they cannot read our minds.
虽然你可以像对大脚怪那样，通过意念与他们沟通，但他们无法读取你的思想。
Although you can communicate with them by intending, like you did with the Bigfoot, but they can't read your mind.
而人类的爱的能力，能够熄灭——或者说，能够消除仇恨。
And and the human capacity for love is what extinguishes, well, it extinguishes hate.
所以某种程度上，假设有多种外星人，其中一种是邪恶的，那么你就能用爱来制衡这些邪恶的存在。
And so in some sense, let's say there are multiple types of aliens and one is evil, then you do have a power over the evil ones with your love.
这就是为什么我说，当然我不是说你
So that's why I say, well, I don't say of course that you
拥有这种想法，我觉得这太美好、太富有想象力了。
have I think think that's wonderful, fanciful thinking.
但如果真是这样，那岂不是从来没有人会受伤？
But if that were true, then nobody'd ever be hurt, would it?
因为有很多充满爱与关怀的人却被杀害了。
Because there's a lot of loving, caring people that have been murdered.
为什么他们没有呢？
Why didn't they?
为什么他们的爱没能阻止那个杀害他们的人呢？
Why didn't their capacity for love just stop the human being from murdering them?
我知道，不，想想看，你知道，我听说关于灰人的事，我经常听到关于灰人的事。
I know, no, think, you know, I hear I hear about the grays, for example, I hear about the grays.
当我第一次经历的时候，我对你说过什么？
And I'm not look when I had my first experience, what did I say to you?
我后颈的汗毛都竖起来了。
The hair was up on the back of my neck.
我感到非常非常紧张，害怕得不敢留下。
And I felt very very nervous and I was too afraid to stay.
我说：我还没准备好面对这个。
I said I'm not ready for this.
我会责怪自己吗？
Do I kick myself?
是的，有一点，但我还没准备好。
Yeah, a little, but I wasn't ready.
所以那里存在着恐惧。
So there was fear there.
我说，一般来说，我不会基于对未知的恐惧来指导我的生活。
I'm saying as a general rule, I don't walk around guiding my life based on fear of the unknown.
我喜欢未知，并拥抱未知。
I love that the unknown and embrace the unknown.
只是，未知中有些方面可能会对我造成严重损害，甚至伤害我。
It's just that there will be aspects of the unknown that could be very detrimental to me and could harm me.
我不认为我对爱的信念会让我在独自一人身处森林时，面对灰人靠近并挑衅的情况下退缩。
And I don't think my capacity to love is going to stop me if I'm by myself in the middle of the forest and there actually are grays and a gray comes over to accost me.
我听说大脚怪存在，而且常常保护人类免受灰人的侵害。
You know, I've heard that Sasquatch are there and often protect humans from the graves.
我听过这种说法，人们这么说，所以你知道，我只是觉得，当我的时候到了，那就是时候了。
I've heard that's a storyline people say, I mean, so, you know, I'm just kind of like, you know, when it's my time, it's my time.
我不希望感到痛苦。
I don't want to feel pain.
我不希望受伤害。
I don't want to hurt.
我不希望被绑架。
I don't want to be abducted.
我不希望被进行肛门检查，但算了，我还是继续吧。
I don't want to anal probe, but hey, I'll just go on.
你知道，这不会阻止我体验这些事情中的任何一件。
You know, that's not gonna stop me from experiencing any of these things.
我知道我的消息来源告诉我的内容。
I know what my sources are telling me.
我的消息来源告诉我，私营航天公司一直参与私人回收行动。
And my sources are telling me that private aerospace companies have been involved in private retrievals.
根据参议院情报委员会提出的法案，我认为这些私营航天公司没有义务披露他们所掌握的信息。
And under the Senate Intelligence Committee proposed legislation, I don't think there would be an obligation on those private aerospace companies to reveal what they have.
这项法案中另一个让我担忧的漏洞是：如果一家私营航天公司拥有由政府协助回收、或几十年前由政府转交他们的技术，而他们将这些技术转让出去，那么根据我对该法案的解读，他们无需向国会或‘箭头’报告。
Another loophole in this legislation that's a worry to me is that if a private aerospace company is in possession of technology that was recovered with government assistance or with, you know, passed on to them by government, say, sixty, seventy years ago, if they divest themselves of that technology, then they're not required under my reading of this bill to report it to the congress or to the Arrow.
你说他们转让技术是什么意思？
What do you mean if they divest themselves of the technology?
好的。
Okay.
好吧，我目前了解的就是这些。
Well, I understand at the moment.
我告诉你吧。
I'll tell you.
我的理解是，我就知道这么多。
My understanding, this is how much I know.
我听说，就在这一刻，有一家大型私营航天公司正试图处置一艘飞行器。
I am told that right at this very moment, there is a major private aerospace company that is trying to divest itself of a craft.
它已经接触了另一家公司，表达出将这项技术出售给对方的意愿。
It has approached another company expressing interest in selling that technology to them.
那原因是什么呢？
And the reason why?
我怀疑是因为他们知道这项立法即将出台。
I suspect it's because they've known this legislation is coming.
这就是正在发生的事情。
That's what's going on here.
你知道，有一些私营航空航天公司正在积极试图破坏国会的意图。
You know, you have private aerospace companies that are actively involved in trying to subvert the intention of congress.
现在翻个白眼吧。
Now roll your eyes.
我不在乎。
I don't care.
事实很简单，有一些来自传统项目内部的人告诉我，他们非常担心有人正在试图向国会隐瞒这项技术。
The simple fact is there are people who are telling me this from within the the legacy program who are very concerned that there is an active attempt underway to hide technology from the congress.
这里还有另一个问题。
And there's another issue here.
另一个问题是，如果一家私营航空航天公司参与了回收行动——据我所知，他们确实参与了——那么根据法律，这项物品属于他们。
Another issue is if a private aerospace company has been involved in a retrieval, as I understand they have been, by law, it's their property.
是的。
Sure.
他们可能不得不向国会披露它。
They may have to reveal it to the congress.
但根据法律，有非常充分的理由认为，它们没有义务将该技术或知识交还给政府。
But by law, there's a very, very good argument that they are under no obligation to reveal, To- Sorry, to hand over that technology or to give the knowledge to the government.
这是因为确实有一项法律，叫做陨石的所有权和控制法。
And that's because there's actually a law called the law and ownership and con- The law of ownership and control of meteorites.
本质上，国际法中有相关规定，意味着这不仅限于陨石。
And essentially, there are provisions in international law that mean that it's not just meteorites.
本质上，如果你获得了某物，并且自己出资进行了回收，这就激励人们开发可能由此产生的技术，并享有对该材料的私人所有权。
Essentially, if you come into possession of something and you've spent the money on recovering it yourself, it's an incentive for people to develop the technology that might arise from that recovery, that they enjoy the private ownership of that material.
因此，我们背后所有这些问题中的一个关键点是：假设存在一些私营航空航天公司，已经掌握了某项技术长达五十年、六十年甚至七十年。
So one of the issues that we have behind all of this is let's assume hypothetically that there are private aerospace companies that have been sitting on technology for fifty, sixty, seventy years.
首先，假设罗斯威尔事件发生在1947年，大约在1950年，或者可能在20世纪70年代，罗斯威尔的飞行器被移交给了某家私营航空航天公司。
In the first category, let's say Roswell happened in 1947, and let's say round about 1950 or so, perhaps in the nineteen seventies, the Roswell craft was passed on to a private aerospace company.
那么，如果它们已经拥有该物体五十年、六十年了，会发生什么？
What happens then if they've had possession of that object for fifty, sixty years?
美国政府真的对该技术拥有所有权主张吗？
Does the US government really have a claim on that technology?
在法律上，这存在一个疑问。
In law, there's a question mark.
而且，正如我注意到的，就在过去24小时内，有人在推特上声称，如果美国回收的技术被转移到了加拿大怎么办。
And what if, as I noticed, somebody was recently asserting just in the last twenty four hours on Twitter, what if, say, technology from recoveries in The US has been moved extraterritorially into Canada.
天哪。
Oh, gee.
这很有趣。
That's interesting.
如果加拿大秘密持有由美国航空航天公司所有、并由加拿大政府科学家与美国科学家合作研发的回收技术，那会怎样？
What if Canada was secretly in possession of retrieved technology that is owned by a US aerospace company and being worked on by, oh, say, Canadian government scientists in collaboration with US scientists.
这种情况下的法律是怎样的？
What's the law on that?
美国国会对此项技术是否有域外管辖权？
Does the US Congress have extraterritorial control over that technology?
有趣的问题。
Interesting question.
除此之外，还有一个漏洞大到足以让一辆卡车开过去：如果这些私营航空航天公司是通过私人军事承包商回收了这项技术呢？
And then separately from that, another truck hole a loophole that you could drive a truck through here is what if those what if those private aerospace companies have recovered that technology using private military contractors?
承包商，正如我所理解的，近年来这种情况非常普遍——如果这项技术完全是由这些私营航空航天公司回收的，或许还与美国政府合作，但它们已经把所有资金和资源都投入到了这项工作中呢？
Contractors, As as I I I understand has very much been the case in the last few years, what if it's been entirely recovered by those private aerospace companies, perhaps in collaboration recovered with the US government, but they've spent all the money and all the resources on doing that?
难道它们不应该理所当然地拥有这项技术的权利吗？
Shouldn't they ought properly to have the rights to that technology?
我的意思是，假设这种情况真的存在。
I mean, imagine hypothetically if it is true.
想象一下。
Imagine.
想象一下，如果事实真的是洛克希德·马丁公司的话。
Just imagine if it is true that, say, Lockheed Martin.
假设洛克希德·马丁公司拥有一艘宇宙飞船。
Let's say Lockheed Martin has a a spacecraft.
假设它们真的拥有一架完全正常运行的飞碟，来自，比如说，我不知道，德克萨斯州的金曼，正停放在某个洞穴里的支架上，位于一处私人设施中。
Let's say they've got a a perfectly operating flying saucer from, say, I don't know, Kingman, Texas sitting on blocks somewhere in a cave, sitting in a private facility somewhere.
他们为什么必须把这项技术知识交给国会？
Why do they have to give that technology knowledge to the congress?
他们又为什么要这么做？
And why should they?
他们是一家私营航空航天公司。
They're a private aerospace company.
他们有充分的理由想要在商业竞争对手面前取得优势。
They've got they've got every reason to want to develop an advantage over their over their corporate rivals.
即使这家公司正在与政府合作？
Even if that company was dealing with the government?
这就是问题所在。
Well, that's the issue.
我曾与硅谷一些高层人士交谈过，他们拥有资源和资金，非常愤怒，因为他们相信，五十年前、六十年前这些公司还不存在时，这项技术就被赠予并移交给了私营航空航天公司。
The issue is I've spoken to people at a very high level in Silicon Valley who have resources and money who are very angry that they believe technology was gifted, vested into private aerospace companies fifty, sixty years ago when they didn't exist.
而现在，他们已经知道了这件事。
And they're now aware of this.
他们不生气的是公众对此一无所知。
And what they're not- What they're not angry about is that the public don't know about it.
他们生气的是自己没有被纳入其中。
What they're angry about is that they've not been cut into it.
这就是正在发生的事情。
That's what's going on here.
这听起来可能像是一个荒诞的阴谋论，但让我们来调查一下。
And it may all sound like a wacky conspiracy theory, but let's see it investigated.
格鲁什提出了这些说法。
Grush has made these claims.
他冒了职业生涯的风险。
He has risked his career.
他冒着安全等级被取消的风险站出来提供证据，并且完全是按规矩行事的。
He's risked his security classification to come forward and give evidence, and he's done it by the book.
他现在还保留着那些安全等级吗？
He still has those security classifications?
他有。
He does.
好的。
Okay.
我可以总结一下格鲁什的故事，看看我理解得对不对吗？
Can I summarize the Grush story and see if I have it correct?
当然可以。
Sure.
所以格鲁什是一位高级官员。
So Grush is a senior official.
他曾拥有。
He has Was.
他曾经是高级官员，拥有大量接触政府不同机密部分和秘密活动的权限。
Was a senior official, has or had plenty of access to different secret parts of the government, secret activities.
我试图让自己和观众都能更容易理解。
I'm trying to make this simple for myself and the audience as well.
他就像说，好吧。
He's like, okay.
我在这里看到一些与非人类智能有关的东西。
I'm seeing something here that has to do with nonhuman intelligence.
我是从风声中听说的。
I'm hearing it through the grapevine.
我可能看过一些文件。
I perhaps have seen doc
不。
No.
不。
No.
这不仅仅是道听途说。
It's more it's it's more more than through the grapevine.
他直接与遗留项目中的人交谈过，或者至少与那些声称拥有直接知识和接触非人类技术的人交谈过。
He's spoken directly he's spoken directly with people in the legacy program or people who at least purport to have had direct knowledge and contact with nonhuman technology.
好的。
Okay.
然后他说，人们，也就是公众，应该知道这件事。
Then he's like, people, namely the public, should know about this.
好的。
Okay.
我该怎么去做呢？
How do I go about doing this?
因为我不想坐牢，所以我打算去找政府的一个部门。
Because I don't wanna go to jail, so I'm gonna go to a part of the government.
政府有一个部门叫DOPCR。
There's a part of the government called DOPCR.
所以国防部
So defense
国防部出版前安全审查办公室。
Defense Office of Pre Publication Security Review.
当某人拥有安全许可时，他们需要获得授权才能就自己想谈论的内容公开发言。
It's when somebody's got a security clearance, they need to get authorization to speak publicly about whatever it is they wanna speak about.
他们会写下一份提案，说明想说什么，然后由DOPSA批准。
They write down in a proposal what they want to say, and then DOPSA approves it.
而这正是他在这里所做的事情。
And that's exactly what he's done here.
他去了DOPSA，即国防出版前安全审查办公室，他们已经批准他公开他所披露的内容。
He's gone to DOPSA, the Defense Office Pre Publication Security Review Office, and they have approved him revealing what he's revealed.
好的。
Okay.
于是他告诉他们：这是我想要告诉公众的内容。
So then he tells them, here's what I want to tell the public.
然后他们给出同意或不同意的答复，但那些他们同意的部分呢？
And then they say yes or no, but the parts they say yes to?
当然。
Sure.
只是为了澄清一下，柯特，多普泽给出这个批准，并不意味着他所说的内容一定是真实的。
And just to be- Just to be clear, Curt, the fact that Dopzer gives that approval is not an endorsement that what he is saying is necessarily true.
这仅仅意味着他所说的内容没有违反国家安全，因为这就是他们的职责。
All it is is merely an endorsement that what he is saying is not breaching national security because that's their role.
他们的职责是确保他所发表的言论不会违反他的保密等级。
Their role is to make sure that the the statements that he makes don't breach his security classification.
好的。
Okay.
所以他们并没有说这是真的。
So they're not saying that it's true.
他们只是说你所说的内容不属于机密信息。
They're just saying that what you're saying is not classified.
好的。
Okay.
然后他继续和你一起，接着就爆发了这则重大新闻。
So then he goes on with you, and this huge news story breaks.
他说存在非人类智能或非人类飞行器和躯体。
And he says that there are nonhuman intelligences or nonhuman craft and bodies.
所以我一直在想，这里有一个无解的困境。
So what I was thinking is there's this no win scenario here.
因为如果他提出这些非凡的主张，我们就可以说，是的。
Because if he says extraordinary claims, then we can just say, yeah.
但政府表示这并不属于机密信息。
But the government said that that's not classified.
如果真有这种情况，那肯定是机密的。
If that was going on, that would be classified.
他们会说，请不要谈论这件事。
They would say, please don't talk about that.
这正是我脑海中的想法，也有很多其他人这么想。
Well, that's what's going through my head and plenty of others.
那你对此怎么看？
So how do you think about that?
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，我认为他必须获得DOPSA的批准，才能对我、莱斯利·凯恩和拉尔夫·布卢门撒尔进行那次采访。
I mean, I I think he had to get DOPSA approval in order to do the interview that he did with myself and that he did with Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal.
而他确实获得了批准。
And he did that.
正如我强调的，这种批准本身并不意味着国防部认可他所说的内容是真实的。
And as I've emphasised, that approval in and of itself doesn't mean it's a warranty by the Defence Department that what he's saying is true.
但如果国防部不希望他进行这次采访，他们就必须指出他泄露所知信息所违反的法律。
But if the Defence Department had not wanted him to do the interview, then they would have had to have cited the laws that he was breaching by revealing what he knows.
而正如他向我解释的那样，如果被迫如此，他会诉诸法庭挑战他们，而且他已准备好这么做。
And then, as he's explained it to me, to to be forced to He would have taken them on in court and challenged them on that, and he was ready to do that.
因为如果像他所声称的那样，存在非法甚至可能违法地向国会隐瞒证据的行为，那么这种法律挑战将赋予他呈交证据的权利，从而以国防部无法否认的方式公开证实他的说法。
Because if, as he asserts, there is illegal and possibly criminal withholding of evidence from the congress, that legal challenge would have given him the right to present evidence that would then have validated his claims publicly in a way that would have been incontrovertible for the defense department.
因此，当面对多普泽的指控和申请时，他们唯一的选择就是批准，因为他们不敢冒险。
So the only choice that they had when presented with the Dopzer allegation the Dopzer application was to give him the approval because they couldn't risk.
如果他说的是实话，他们不敢冒险，因为一旦此事被迫在法庭公开听证会上曝光，造成的损害将难以承受。
If he's telling the truth, they couldn't risk the damage that would be caused if they try to cover this up of this being forced out into the open in an open hearing in a court.
因为有一些律师愿意将此事上诉到国家最高法院。
Because there are lawyers who are prepared to take this to the highest courts in the land.
美国一些公司的人对此感到愤怒，因为他们被排除在据称发生在五十年前或六十年前的技术转让之外。
There are people in companies in America who are angry that they have been cut out of the vesting of technology that allegedly occurred fifty, sixty years ago.
而且，他们心怀怨恨，认为军事情报界一小部分与美国政府长期关联的私营航空航天公司，获得了本应属于其他公司的所谓技术访问权限。
And there is bitterness that a small cadre of private aerospace companies in the military intelligence community with a long association with the US government have been given alleged access to this technology in a way that other companies haven't.
尤其是因为这些公司认为，自己在技术研发方面的能力远胜于那些试图从事这项技术开发长达五六十载的私营航空航天公司。
Not least because those companies feel they have a better job, a better capacity of developing the technologies than the private aerospace companies that have been trying to do it for fifty or sixty years.
这一切的背后，正是这个原因。
That's what's behind all of this.
这根本不是一场公众运动。
It's not really a public campaign.
推动国会行动的真正动力，是那些私下里因被排除在外而深感愤懑的公司。
What's driving the moves in congress is that privately, there are companies that are bitterly angry that they have been cut out of the loop.
这是美国资本主义和自由企业的一部分，传统上企业应该能够竞争政府合同，以帮助美国政府完成任务
It's part of American capitalism, free enterprise, good old free enterprise that companies should be able to compete for contracts with you know, to help the American government do
如果它所做的是
If what it does
如果确实有公司获得了非人类外星技术，并且这些公司已经拥有这项技术六七十年甚至八十年之久——如果这是真的，而格鲁什先生正是这么指控的——那么美国其他公司完全有理由感到愤恨和不公，因为他们被排除在了这项交易之外
it's true that there are companies that have been given access to nonhuman alien technology and that they've had that technology now for sixty, seventy, eighty years, if that's true, and that's what mister Grush is alleging, If that's true, then there are other companies in us in America that have every right to feel resentful and bitter that they've been cut out of the deal.
这或许能解释为什么如今国防航空航天领域会出现一些主导型企业
It might explain the reason for some of the dominant companies in in defense aerospace today.
这才是这里真正关乎的核心问题
This is what's at stake here.
因此，幕后的实际情况是，确实有一个强大的军事和情报游说集团正试图压制整个格鲁什事件，阻止参议院情报委员会举行公开听证会
And so what's going on behind the scenes is, yes, there is a formidable military and intelligence lobby trying to shut this whole Grush stuff down, trying to stop the Senate Intelligence Committee from holding public hearings.
顺便说一句，正是参议院情报委员会拥有安全许可，能够听取格鲁什先生所掌握的证据
And it's the Senate Intelligence Committee, by the way, that has the security clearances that would allow it to hear the evidence that mister Grush has got.
但幕后的实际情况是，还有一些不属于国防航空航天利益圈的人，他们同样充满愤怒，并且也在向他们的国会议员施压
But what's going on behind the scenes is quietly and behind the scenes, there are other people who are not part of that defense aerospace loop who are bitterly angry, and they are robbery their congressmen as well.
他们说，如果这是真的，而我认为确实是，因为我已经和一些这些人谈过，如果这是真的，那就太荒谬了。
And they're saying, if this is true, and I think it is, because I've had conversations with some of these people, if this is true, this is outrageous.
这是对美国资本主义和自由企业优良品质的背弃。
This is an abrogation of the good qualities of American capitalism and free enterprise.
为什么这些私营航空航天公司应该获得如此优待？
Why should these private aerospace companies be given a free run?
因此，这项开创性的立法将首次彻底迫使真相公之于众。
Hence, this groundbreaking legislation, which for once and for all is going to force the truth to come to the open.
如果确实有非地球起源的外星技术被某些私营航空航天公司藏匿于世界某处，根据这项拟议的法律，他们将被迫公开这些技术。
If it's true that there is nonhuman technology of non Earth origin held by private aerospace companies somewhere in the world under this law that's proposed, they will now be forced to reveal it.
这就是为什么这件事至关重要。
That's why this matters.
但作为另一个问题，我不确定公众是否会被告知这些真相。
But as a separate issue, I don't know necessarily that the public is going to get told this.
我认为，即使在国会内部，包括一些推动公开的人士中，也存在一种强烈观点：如果我们能在保密的监督委员会、安全隔绝信息设施（SCIF）或其他类似场所，私下向国会披露这些信息，或许才是更好的做法。
I think that there is quite a a strong opinion inside the congress, even amongst some of the people pushing for disclosure, that if we can get away with revealing this to the Congress privately in oversight committees inside secure compartmented information secret compartmented information facilities or whatever the word is for a SCIF, it might be the better way to do it.
我不认为国会中存在一种强烈的政治推动力，认为让美国公众知晓——如果这是真的——有非人类智能正在与地球互动，是一件好事。
I don't think there is a push or a strong feeling in the congress politically that it's a good idea for America to know if it's true, that there are nonhuman intelligences engaging with this planet.
我不认为政界有强烈的政治意愿，认为现在是时候将非人类技术被保留的事实公之于众了。
I don't think that there is a strong political impetus for the politicians to feel that it's time for the existence of the retention of nonhuman technology to be brought to public attention.
但我确实认为，正如人们需要理解的那样，国会现在有一种紧迫感，要求将真相告知那些监督委员会。
But I do feel, and this is what people need to understand, there is an imperative inside the congress now for the truth to be brought to the attention of those oversight committees.
而这些监督委员会如何处理这些信息，将至关重要。
And it's what those oversight committees decide to do with information that will be absolutely fundamental.
我的意思并不是对参议院情报特别委员会主席马克·沃纳不敬，我认为他是一位值得尊重的人。
I mean, no disrespect to, I think, Mark Warner, who's the chairman of the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence.
但他我认为是住在弗吉尼亚州的。
But he's, I think, based in Virginia.
我的意思是，他在弗吉尼亚州的选民是谁？
I mean, who are his constituency in Virginia?
是军方和情报界。
The military and intelligence community.
军方和情报界对于这些保留的尖端技术的揭露，可能希望如何处理？
What does the military and intelligence community likely want done about some revelations of retained highly advanced technology?
如果我是他们，如果是中央情报局、国家安全局、国防情报局，我会希望保密，以便我们能将其用于自身优势，试图在技术上超越俄罗斯或中国。
Well, if I was them, if I was the CIA, the NSA, the DIA, I'd want it kept confidential so that we can develop it for our own advantage and try and develop a superiority over the Russians or the Chinese.
这并不难。
It's not hard.
我不希望它公之于众，而且我会游说参议院情报特别委员会主席保持保密。
I wouldn't want it made public, and I'd be lobbying the chairman of the Senate Select Committee for Intelligence to keep it confidential.
但我认为，正在缓慢发生的是，人们产生了误解，目前社交媒体上关于UAP的大量评论都认为，我们正朝着一场大规模公开事件迈进。
But I think that what's slowly happening is people misunderstand, and I think there's a large amount of the social media commentary at the moment on UAPs who think that what we're heading towards is some mass disclosure event.
我不认为这会发生。
I don't think that's going to happen.
我真的不这么认为。
I really don't.
我认为更可能的情况是，会在幕后、在国会的安全设施内进行高度受控的披露，让国会委员会首次真正了解正在发生的一切。
I think that what is probably going to be happening is that a very controlled disclosure behind the scenes in secure facilities inside the congress where for the first time congressional committees were actually brought up to speed with what's really going on.
我认为他们会了解到，确实存在被回收的非人类技术，并且正在开展一项秘密的逆向工程计划，而你们国家加拿大深度参与其中。
And I think they will learn that, yes, there is retrieved nonhuman technology and that there is a secret reverse engineering program going on in which your country, Canada, is involved intimately.
如果人们深入探究，只要愿意提问，就会发现更多内容。
And if people dug into that, they'd find a whole lot more if they only bothered to ask.
顺便问一下，你觉得这不令人震惊吗，库尔特？
Don't you find it, by the way, extraordinary, Curt?
这封拉里·马圭尔的信件竟然泄露了，这简直太不可思议了。
Absolutely extraordinary that this Larry Maguire letter can leak.
杰里米·科贝尔和纳普泄露了这封信。
Jeremy Corbelle and Knapp leaked this letter.
我早就知道这封信的存在了。
I've known about this letter for some time.
事实上，早在五月，另一个消息源就在推特上发布了这封信，但当时完全被人们忽视了。
And in fact, it was posted back in May by another source on Twitter, and it was completely ignored by people.
丹尼尔·奥蒂斯，来自加拿大右翼的一位非常受尊敬的记者。
Daniel Otis, a very respectable journalist from Canada Right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
指出这份文件早在五月就已经上线了。
Has noted that this document was actually up online as early as May.
但文件中实际上写道，拉里·马圭尔向加拿大国防部长声称：‘您可能并不知晓，加拿大国防研究与发展机构（DRDC），也就是类似于美国国防高级研究计划局（DARPA）的机构，曾参与过对UAP的研究，这一行动可追溯至1950年左右。’
But it actually says, Larry Maguire alleges to the minister of national defense in Canada, quote, you may not be aware, Defense Research and Development Canada, DRDC, that's Canada's equivalent, if you like, of DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, has participated in efforts to analyze UAP, which is publicly traceable to circa 1950.
这些回收的外国材料通过‘五眼联盟外国材料计划’（FMP）进行研究，在加拿大，该计划由加拿大武装部队情报司令部支持，并与多项情报共享协议和条约相衔接。
This recovered foreign material is studied through the Five Eyes Foreign Material Program, the FMP, which in Canada is sponsored by the Canadian Forces Intelligence Command aligned with several intelligence sharing arrangements and treaties.
现在，马圭尔虽然不是议会的高级议员，但他显然已经公开发表过意见，我知道他确实如此。
Now, Maguire, who's not a senior member of parliament, but he's obviously spoken, and I know he has.
他曾经与该计划内部的人士交流过。
He's spoken to people inside that program.
我知道他接触过科学家以及直接了解该回收计划的人士。
I know he's spoken to scientists and people with a direct knowledge of that retrieval program.
但现在发生的是，舆论开始扭曲了。
But what's now happening is the spin is starting.
人们现在又回过头来说，他只知道格兰特·卡梅伦从公开渠道告诉他的那些东西。
People are now coming back and saying, oh, the only thing he knows is stuff that Grant Cameron's told him from public sources.
这并不真实。
That's not true.
麦奎尔先生需要被施加压力。
And mister McGuire needs to be pushed.
加拿大需要有一位优秀的记者打电话给麦奎尔先生，或者把摄像机对准他，问他：先生，您到底在指控什么？
And a good journalist in Canada needs to get on the phone to mister McGuire or stick a TV camera in front of him and say to him, sir, what are you alleging?
当您告诉国防部长DRDC一直在参与分析UAP时，您的依据是什么？
When you told your defense minister that DRDC has been working in efforts to analyze UAP, what is your knowledge based on?
是仅仅基于您在别人书里读到的内容，还是基于与消息来源的直接对话？
Is it just based on what you've read in somebody else's book, or is it based on direct conversations with sources?
我认为他会告诉您是后者。
And I think he will tell you the latter.
拉里·麦圭尔，如果你在看，我很希望你能来，如果你愿意回答这样的问题的话。
Larry Maguire, if you're watching, I would love to have you on if you're willing to answer questions like this.
现在让我担心的是，媒体并没有跟进报道。
Now what worries me is that we're not seeing the follow-up from media.
我受过调查记者的训练，会提出这样的问题，因为我学会了从阿罗的说法中读出言外之意。
I'm trained as an investigative journalist to ask questions like that because I've learned to read between the lines in what Arrow says.
所以当五角大楼的公关人员苏珊·戈夫站出来说，阿罗没有发现任何外星生命的可信证据时，这听起来像是五角大楼的否认。
So when Susan Goff, the Pentagon PR woman, stands up and says that Arrow has found no credible evidence of ET, that sounds like a Pentagon denial.
但这并不是，因为她并不代表阿罗，而阿罗并不是五角大楼内有权限提出必要问题的机构。
But it's not because she's speaking for Arrow, which is not a body in the Pentagon that has the clearances to even ask the questions that need to be asked.
因此，我们正经历着一种荒谬的信息封锁，主流媒体中那些轻率、盲目接受的媒体，正在纵容持续传播虚假信息。
And so we've got this ridiculous containment going on of information where a glib accepting credulous media in the mainstream media is allowing a continued peddling of falsehood.
而像我这样直接与项目内部人员接触、观察事态发展、权衡是否要站出来的人，正变得越来越悲观。
And people like myself who are engaging directly with people in the program, who are watching to see what happens and weighing whether to come forward, I'm getting increasingly pessimistic.
因为尽管这类立法——这项法案很重要，但其中的漏洞大到足以让一辆卡车穿过去。
Because whilst legislation like this, this bill is important, you could drive a truck through the loopholes in it.
正如我所指出的，你知道，一个精明的大型国防航空航天公司的律师可能会说：看，我们只需要设立一家前台公司，把相关信息剥离到这家前台公司名下，我们就不再直接掌握这些信息了。
And as I've pointed out, you know, as I as I've pointed out, you know, a clever lawyer for a big defense aerospace company could go, look, all we need to do is develop a a front company, divest it into that front company, we no longer have physical position of that information.
所以我们就这么干吧。
So let's let's just do that.
我的意思是，他们有无数种方法可以逃避对国会的责任。
I mean, there is any number of ways they can evade accountability to the Congress.
真正需要的，也是我怀疑不会发生的是，像大卫·格鲁什那样主动开展的调查。
What is needed and what I suspect is not going to happen is the kind of proactive investigation that David Grush did.
因为这就是问题所在。
Because this is the issue.
在五角大楼公关人员苏珊·戈斯的发言中，她提到，RO——五角大楼的UFO调查办公室——在接收任何过去或现在与UAP相关的信息时，没有任何限制，这一点至关重要，无论这些信息最初是由国防部还是情报界哪个机构分类的。
In the comments that were made by Susan Goth, the Pentagon PR woman, she said there is no restriction to RO, the Pentagon's UFO investigation office, receiving, that's the important point, receiving any past or present UAP related information, regardless of the affiliation of the original classification authority within DOD or the intelligence community.
而“接收”才是关键用词，因为ARO的设立目的就是接收那些在《国防授权法案》激励条款下决定主动提供信息的证人所提交的内容。
And receiving is the pertinent word because ARO is set up to receive information that witnesses decide to come forward with to ARO under the incentive provisions laid out in the National Defense Authorization Act.
我可以告诉你，因为我正在与一些证人交谈，他们正看着Arrow，却并不认为Arrow是一个公正的参与者。
And I can tell you, because I'm talking to some of them, those witnesses are sitting there looking at Arrow, and they do not think that Arrow is an objective player.
他们认为五角大楼在刻意引导舆论，其言论不真诚，因此不信任Arrow及其负责人。
They think that there is spin coming from the Pentagon, that it's being disingenuous with what it's saying, and they do not trust Arrow or its heads.
尽管肖恩·柯克帕特里克博士动机良好，但人们普遍认为Arrow并非公正的参与者。
People like doctor Sean Kirkpatrick, however well motivated he may be, the perception is that Arrow is not a fair player.
这正是大卫·格鲁什直接向国会举报的原因。
Which is why David Grush went directly to congress, by the way.
因为在去年年底《国家国防授权法案》出台之前，他已经向国会的监督委员会提交了证词。
Because before the National Defense Authorization Act legislation was brought in in late December last year, he'd already given his evidence to the oversight committees in the Congress.
我怀疑，根据新法案，他现在必须先向Arrow提交信息。
I suspect he would now be required to go to Arrow first under the new legislation.
但他很可能不会这么做，因为他不信任他们，因为他亲眼见过他们的运作方式。
And he probably wouldn't do that because he doesn't trust them, because he's seen how they operate.
关键是，当我提醒你注意苏珊·戈夫的评论仅限于Arrow接收任何过去或现在的UAP相关信息时，她的整个回应都建立在人们会主动现身的假设之上。
And the point is, is that when I drew your attention then to the fact that Susan Goff's comment was restricted to Arrow receiving any past or present UAP related information, her whole response is predicated on the assumption that people are going to come forward.
大卫·格鲁什的做法是主动出击，履行他作为UAP特别工作组调查员的职责，并进行了深入调查。
What David Grush did was proactively go out and do his job as a UAP task force investigator, and he investigated.
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