201. 从球场到董事会：亚历克斯·罗德里格斯如何打出沟通全垒打

从许多方面来看，沟通就像打棒球。你挥棒击球，有时能打出全垒打，有时也会三振出局。但无论如何，你都能从中学到东西。我是马特·亚伯拉罕斯，在斯坦福商学院教授战略沟通课程。欢迎收听《快速思考，智慧表达》播客。

In many ways, communication is like baseball. You take some swings, sometimes you hit it out of the park, and sometimes you strike out. But regardless, you learn something from that experience. My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天我们要做些不一样的尝试。我将与斯坦福商学院的同事杰弗里·菲佛合作，采访从运动员转型为企业家的亚历克斯·罗德里格斯（A Rod）。杰夫曾在《快速思考，智慧表达》第34期节目中担任嘉宾。他教授的课程《权力之路》广受欢迎，并著有包括最新作品《权力七法则》在内的多部书籍。

Today, we're doing something a little different. I'm partnering with my Stanford GSB colleague, Jeffrey Pfeffer, to interview the athlete turned entrepreneur Alex Rodriguez, A Rod. Jeff was a guest on Think Fast, Talk Smart in episode 34. He teaches the super popular course, The Paths to Power. And he's the author of many books, including his latest, which is called Seven Rules of Power.

今天我们将轮流采访亚历克斯，你们将从我们两人的视角了解他并向他学习。让我们认识一下亚历克斯。作为A Rod Corp的董事长兼首席执行官，他最广为人知的身份是世界顶级运动员之一——14次入选美国职棒大联盟全明星赛，2009年随纽约扬基队获得世界大赛冠军。如今他是明尼苏达森林狼队和山猫队的老板，并领导专家团队打造高增长企业。

Today, we'll be taking turns interviewing Alex, and you'll get to learn about him and from him from our two perspectives. Let's meet Alex. Alex Rodriguez is the chairman and chief executive officer of A Rod Corp. He is best known as one of the world's greatest athletes, a 14 time Major League Baseball All Star, and a two thousand nine World Series champion with the New York Yankees. Alex is now an owner of the Minnesota Timberwolves and Lynx and leads a team of experts building high growth businesses.

欢迎你，亚历克斯。感谢你和杰夫一起参加这次接力访谈。谢谢你的到来。

Welcome, Alex. Thank you for joining both Jeff and me for this tag team interview. Thanks for being here.

谢谢。我非常兴奋，不过对两位都有点敬畏。

Thank you. I'm very excited. A little intimidated by both of you.

我们可没那么可怕。我是马特。在开始前提醒大家：我们九月份的通讯简报已发布。你将学到如何在即兴发言（如闲聊、纠错和回答问题）时表现得更加从容自信。

We are not very intimidating. Hi. Matt here. Before we get started, our September newsletter is out now. Learn ways to feel more comfortable and confident in spontaneous speaking, like small talk, fixing mistakes, and answering questions.

欢迎在LinkedIn或fastersmarter网站的「资源」板块查看详情。现在插播一条赞助商信息，他们的支持使我们能免费为您提供优质内容。本期节目由Grammarly赞助播出。

Check it out on LinkedIn or at fastersmarter. Under resources. Now a word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. This episode is brought to you by Grammarly.

在《快速思考，智慧表达》节目中，我们制作从社交媒体帖子到新闻简报、嘉宾邀请函到赞助提案的各类内容。为了提升效率并产出高质量内容，我们依赖Grammarly。Grammarly是提升生产力的必备AI沟通助手，无论你在写什么或在哪里写，都能更快完成更多任务。它帮助我们提高效率，为各类信息找到恰当的表达方式。我相信你会发现它非常实用。

Here at Think Fast, Talk Smart, we create a lot of content from social media posts to newsletters, guest invitations to sponsorship proposals. To help us be more effective and produce high quality content, we rely on Grammarly. Grammarly is the essential AI communication assistant that boosts productivity so you can get more of what you need done faster, no matter what or where you're writing. Grammarly helps us be more efficient and strike the right tone for our many messages. I know you'll find it very useful.

让Grammarly替你处理繁琐工作，这样你就能专注于高影响力的事务。免费下载Grammarly请访问grammarly.com/podcast。再次强调，网址是grammarly.com/podcast。我们开始吧？当然。

Let Grammarly take the busy work off your plate so you can focus on high impact work. Download Grammarly for free at grammarly.com/podcast. That's grammarly.com/podcast. Should we get started? Sure.

好的。我想请你聊聊是什么让你来到斯坦福，来到校园。我知道在你众多工作中，你还在GSB联合教授一门课程。能和我们说说这门课吗？你希望学生们从你这里学到什么？

Okay. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what brings you to Stanford, brings you to campus. I know among your many jobs, you co teach a class at the GSB. Can you tell us a little bit about the class and what you hope the students learn from you?

是的。这门课叫《战略转型》。我和Alison Kluger共同执教。信不信由你，这已经是第七年了。通常我们有25到30名学生，这段经历非常美妙。

Yeah. The class is called Strategic Pivoting. I co teach it with Alison Kluger. Believe it or not, this is our seventh year. And, usually we have 25 to 30 students and it's just been a marvelous experience.

就像我，我相信你们两位也有过某种转型经历，我们只是试图让它更具战略性。我们采用'扎根、扫描、试飞'的框架——在开这门课之前，我几乎一生都在实践这个模式。所以现在能在课堂上指导学生、帮助他们，这个过程充满乐趣。说到'扎根'，你需要思考自己的竞争优势是什么？你能为这个领域提供什么独特价值？

And like me, I'm sure like both of you, you've had some type of pivot and we just try to make it strategic. And we use the framework of planting, scanning, and piloting, which I've done pretty much my whole life before coming to this class. So the fact that now I'm in class teaching our students and helping our students, it's been a lot of fun. I think when you think about planting, you start thinking about what are your competitive advantages? What can you offer this particular space?

我的竞争优势或能力圈在这个特定环境中会如何发挥作用？接着你开始'扫描'机会：这个方向的可扩展性如何？这里是否能找到合适的合作伙伴？至于'试飞'，我始终认为初期应该小规模试行。

How would my competitive powers or my even circle of competence be influenced in this particular place? And then you start scanning for opportunities. How scalable is it? Is this a good place for me to find the right people to collaborate with? And then pilots, I always feel pilots should be done small at the beginning.

这样如果遇到挫折或困难，你总能退回调整，重新尝试、修改、精简，然后继续前进。这个框架一直很受欢迎

That way if you falter or if you struggle, can always lean back and try again, edit, cut, and then move forward. But that framework has been very popular

与我们的学生们一起。太棒了。感谢你让我们深入了解课堂上的情况，我想特别表扬一下艾莉森。杰夫和我都是艾莉森的朋友。对于正在收听的各位，艾莉森曾与我们合作过一期关于声誉和声誉管理的精彩节目。

with our students. Excellent. Thank you for giving us insight into what happens in the class, and and I I wanna give a shout out to Allison. Both Jeff and I are friends with Allison. And those of you listening, Allison did a great episode with us on reputation and reputation management.

因此，我在我的‘权力通行证’课程中试图教授的一点是，为未来做好准备。因为我总是告诉我的学生，如果你在飞机上，你需要在需要之前知道紧急出口在哪里。你需要在需要之前知道氧气面罩的位置。我真正钦佩你的一点是，事实上你确实让自己做好了准备。这很有趣。

So one of the things I try to teach in my Pass to Power class is to get ready for what's next. Because I always tell my students, if you're flying in an airplane, you need to know where the emergency exits are before you need them. You need to know where the oxygen masks are before you need them. One of the things that I really admire about you is that in fact you did get yourself ready. It's interesting.

有些人会意外被解雇，但如果你是一名职业运动员，你知道迟早运动能力会衰退，你将不得不做其他事情。所以，跟我谈谈你是如何为运动生涯结束后的生活做准备的。

Some people will be fired unexpectedly, but if you're a professional athlete, you know that sooner or later, the athletic prowess will wane and you'll have to do something else. So talk to me about how you got ready for what came after your athletic career.

是的。谢谢。也许我会从结果开始说起。我指导并与数十名运动员和前运动员共度大量时间。他们说，运动员会经历两次死亡——当你退役时和真正的死亡。

Yeah. Thank you. And maybe I'll start at the end. I mentor and spend a lot of time with tens and tens of athletes and former athletes. And they say that athletes die twice when you retire and real death.

我发现这是真的。而且我发现很多运动员会经历严重的抑郁。他们会经历离婚，而你只能打高尔夫和钓鱼那么久。幸运的是，对我来说，自从我10岁起，我就一直在思考我的两个B，即棒球（baseball）和商业（business）。我一直对棒球和数字充满热情。

And I find that to be true. And I find a lot of athletes go through major depression. They go through divorces, and you can only play golf and fish so much. I think luckily for me, ever since I was 10 years old, I always thought about my two Bs, which were baseball and business. And I've always had a passion for baseball and a passion for numbers.

所以，在我的新秀赛季之前，我就已经在思考棒球之后的生活了。

So I've been thinking about life after baseball before my rookie year.

正因如此，你可能在远未准备好或其他人还未考虑之前，就已经看到了机会。

And because of that, you were able to see opportunities probably way before you were ready or others were thinking about it too.

我认为自己很幸运，因为我从很早就开始思考这个问题，并且对此充满热情，这让我从不同于其他运动员的视角来看待机遇。

I think I was fortunate that because I was thinking about it so early on and I had a great passion for it, that I came at it from a prism of looking at opportunities different than perhaps other athletes.

你做了哪些准备？

What did you do to get yourself ready?

尽管我没有走传统的大学路线——因为我1993年从迈阿密被西雅图队以状元签选中进入职棒大联盟，18岁就站上了大联盟赛场——但我始终保持着终身学习的态度。我一直在思考投资机会、学习机会，以及如何与更聪明的人为伍。我总是将这些视为令人兴奋的机遇，而很多运动员却把机会视为恐惧而退缩。我认为最好的方式就是尽可能多地自我教育，学习理解后从小规模开始尝试。

So I've been a lifelong student even though I didn't go the traditional college route because I was in the major leagues from Miami, drafted by Seattle in 1993 as the number one pick overall. And I was in the major leagues at 18. And I've always thought about opportunities to invest, opportunities to to learn, to surround myself with much smarter people. I always saw it as an opportunity that was exciting, and I think a lot of athletes looked at opportunities as fear, and they ran the other way. And I think the best way you can do is educate yourself as much as possible, learn it, understand it, and start small.

我不想一开始就投入数百万美元。首先我没有那么多资金，其次我认为那样做是不明智的。你们很多角色

I didn't wanna come out of the gates investing millions of dollars. A, I didn't have it. And, b, I just thought it was imprudent. Many of your roles

都让你置身于董事会或棒球场这类高压高风险的场合。在这种极端压力下，你如何保持冷静镇定并清晰沟通？

have found you in really high pressure, high stakes situations in a boardroom, in a baseball field. How do you work to stay calm and collected and communicate clearly when you're under that high stress?

我很幸运打了近25年职棒大联盟比赛——在西雅图7年、德州3年，最后在纽约待了约12、13年。我有超过1万次打席经历。我深信经验与模式识别的重要性。从观察许多运动员中学到的是：当你说为洋基队效力时，那身条纹球衣很沉重。

I've been lucky because I played almost twenty five years of Major League Baseball. I played seven in Seattle, three in Texas, and then finally landed in New York for about twelve or thirteen years. And I've had over 10,000 at bats. And I'm a big believer in, experience and pattern recognition. And what I've learned from watching a lot of athletes, they say when you come play for the Yankees, the pinstripes are heavy.

这句话的意思是比赛环境有时会让人窒息。我注意到很多人在高压环境下情绪失控，无法保持冷静，因此在关键时刻——我们称之为比赛最紧要关头——会犯低级错误。而那些伟大球员如基特、里维拉、派提特等人，他们拥有在最高压力下保持心跳平稳的罕见能力。

And what they mean by that is the kitchen sometimes is too hot. And what I sensed was that a lot of people in the kitchen got hot, so did their temperature. And they weren't able to control their emotions, and they weren't able to stay calm. And therefore they will make a lot of silly mistakes and what we call clutch time, the most important part of the game. And those who are great, like Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Andy Pettit, and many others, they have this rare ability to keep a very slow heartbeat when the stakes are highest.

我发现世界上的鲍勃·伊格斯、沃伦·巴菲特或杰米·戴蒙们也是如此。他们具备同样的能力，只是没穿细条纹西装，而是穿着普通西装。

And I found the same thing is true with the Bob Igers of the world or the Warren Buffets or the Jamie Dimons. They have the same ability. They're just not wearing pinstripes. They're wearing suits.

对。你会刻意做深呼吸之类的来减缓心率，保持高度专注吗？是有具体的身体训练，还是已经达到心念一动就能进入状态的水平？

Right. Do you consciously do deep breathing or something to help slow that heart rate so you can be very present? Is there something physical you do, or do you just are you just at a place where you can think it and it happens?

是的。你知道，疫情过后我一度迷失了方向。我有点疏于锻炼，全天候工作。所以后来我重新规划，从早上八点开始...

Yeah. You know, post the pandemic, I came out of it and I lost my ways. I I got a little bit out of shape. I was working around the clock. So coming out of it, I focused basically from 08:00 in the morning.

我彻底改变了作息。早八点到中午是我的私人时间——训练、冥想、瑜伽、阅读、录制播客。之后十二点到六点是我在迈阿密办公室的工作时段。这个模式效果极佳，既让我专注公司要务，又能放心授权给五位直接汇报的高管。

I changed my routine. From eight to noon, I was gonna say that's my me time. That's the time where I train, I meditate, I do yoga, I maybe read a book, do some podcasting, and then I'm in the office every day from twelve to six when I'm home in Miami. And that's been a really wonderful formula. The reason why it's allowed me to focus on the most important things at our company, and then it allowed me to delegate to the five senior members that report to me and really trust my team.

就像当年我在洋基队想实现的「接力棒传递」。如今作为企业领导者，我秉持同样的理念。

Exactly what I wanted to do with the Yankees. We call it pass the baton to the next guy. I'm doing the same thing as a leader of our company today.

我注意到你和许多橄榄球运动员都建立了强大而高效的媒体影响力，涵盖电视和社交媒体。你如何规划这种形象建设？有哪些确保'亚历克斯·罗德里格斯'家喻户晓的战略？

So one of the things that I've noticed about you, and I noticed about some other athletes in football as well, is that you have built an enormous and very effective presence on media, both TV, but also social media. How have you thought about doing that? What have you done strategically to make sure that everybody knows who Alex Rodriguez is?

我认为关键在于保持连贯性，同时保持真实。看看乔·罗根等成功案例，他们都在消除中间环节——绕过新闻媒体直接触达受众。这既能掌控信息传达，又能创造连接。比如我最近分享了一位失业女性斩获格莱美的励志故事。

I think it's important to be consistent with whatever you're doing. I also think it's important to be genuine and authentic. If you look at whether it's Joe Rogan or whoever platforms are winning today, they're ones that they're taking the broker out of the way, meaning the news, the media, they're going direct to the consumer. So I think that's really important that you can control your own message. And then two, I also think it allows you I recently posted a young lady who was out of a job and won a Grammy the other day, and it was a beautiful story.

所以你能突出展示社区中其他人在商业、体育或娱乐领域所做的美好事情。

So you're able to highlight others that are doing beautiful things in the community, whether it's business, sports, or entertainment.

你做了些什么确保自己能登上众多棒球谈话节目？你从多早开始准备，又采取了哪些措施让人们给予你这样的曝光机会？

What did you do to make sure that, you got, you're on a bunch of baseball talk shows and all? How early did you begin and what did you do to make sure that people would give you that kind of visibility?

我从未真正考虑过退役后进入媒体行业的生活，这是我从未想过的事。但我确实拥有的是——我感觉自己几乎获得了棒球博士学位，因为从10岁左右开始，我每晚都要看三四场比赛。所以我一直在参与、观看或研究棒球。然后问题就变成了：好吧，

I never really thought about life after baseball in media. That was one thing that I never thought about. But the one thing that I did have was I basically felt like I had my PhD in baseball because I've been watching three, four games per night ever since I was, like, 10 years old. So I've been playing or watching or studying of some sort. And then the question becomes is, okay.

你拥有专业知识，但能否在平台上清晰表达，用简洁易懂、有趣的方式讲述？我总认为目标听众是四五年级从没打过棒球的孩子，所以要让内容非常简单。目前看来效果不错。

You have the knowledge, but can you actually articulate it in a platform and say it in a concise, understandable, digestible, entertainment way where you're speaking to I always think my target audience is a fourth or fifth grader that has never played baseball and just make it very simple. And that's so far so good.

我很喜欢你分享的几点关于明确目标受众的思考。你会考虑受众，会斟酌表达方式。回顾你之前关于如何冷静下来的回答，我很欣赏你有固定流程和练习。你还提到了授权分工。

I love hearing a few things that you've shared about you target an audience specifically. You think about that. You think about your message. Going back to your previous answer about how you calm down, I like that you have routine and there's a practice. And you also talked about delegating.

在我看来，你对团队协作和建设有非常独到的见解。对于刚担任领导职务的年轻人，关于如何物色成员、建设团队以及在团队中沟通，你会给什么建议？

And it seems to me that you have a really interesting perspective on teaming and building teams. What advice would you have to a young leader or somebody who's new to the leadership role about what to look for and how to build a team, how to communicate within that team?

我们此刻就建立了很好的合作关系。我们三人会成为绝佳搭档，因为首先你们比我聪明得多，经验也更丰富。但我们都为这个组合带来不同的特质，都能互相学习。有时候如果房间里只有两位科学家，反而可能是个错误。

We have a great partnership right here. The three of us will be great partners because, a, you guys are way smarter than me. You have a lot more experience than me. But we all bring something a little bit different to the party, and we can all learn from each other. I just think sometimes it's a mistake if you get two scientists, and they're the only two in the room.

人们往往只会固守一种思维方式。正因如此，我坚信在组建团队、顾问委员会或董事会时，多样性至关重要。这也是我认为艾莉森·克鲁格和我能成为绝佳搭档的原因——尽管听起来有些奇特，我们都来自媒体背景，都是桥梁搭建者，都热衷于激励他人、传授知识并持续学习。

They're only gonna think one way. That's why I do believe that diversity is so important in how we select teams or board of advisers or board of governors. And that's why I think Alison Kluge and I are such great partners because, again, we come from, in a weird way, similar backgrounds from media. We're both bridge builders. We both like to inspire, teach, and learn.

这感觉太美妙了。当你身边聚集着优秀人才时，那便是无与伦比的礼物。

It's just wonderful. When you can surround yourself with great people, there's no better gift.

但要做到这点，你必须放下部分自我。因为我发现很多人总觉得自己在所有方面都比别人强。要实现你刚才描述的境界——我认为这非常了不起——就必须学会放手，承认他人掌握着自己所不知的知识。想必你在棒球界内外都见过无法做到这点的同行。那么，是什么让你保持了这种恰到好处的谦逊呢？

But one of the things you have to do if you're going to be able to do that is you have to let go of some of your ego. Because one of the things that I've seen among people is they think that they're better than anybody else at everything. And in order to do what you just described, which I think is amazing, you have to be willing to let go and to say, there are other people who know things that I don't know. And I'm sure you've seen some of your colleagues in baseball and outside of baseball who aren't able to do that. So what has permitted you to have what I would call appropriate modesty?

杰弗里，如果让你和马特来洋基球场教我打曲线球就太荒谬了——尽管你们既聪明又擅长运动；同样，让我来GSB给你们上课也很可笑。所以我总是以倾听为先导，而且是高度专注的倾听。这世上夸夸其谈者众，善始者多，但真正的倾听者和善终者却寥寥无几。

Well, Jeffrey, it would be silly for me to have you and Matt come to Yankee Stadium and teach me how to hit a breaking ball. As smart as you guys are and athletic as you guys are, and it would be silly for me to come to GSB and try to teach you guys something. So I lead with a lot of listening, and I mean very intentional listening. There's a lot of great talkers. There's a lot of great starters and not a lot of great listeners or closers.

当你真正学会专注倾听时，沟通能力就会提升。当发言者发现听众全神贯注时，对话也会变得更有趣。你提到的自我问题，我认为更多是不安全感作祟。事实上，我特别喜欢置身于满屋更聪明的人之中，这样就能通过精彩对话继续我的求知之旅。

And if you're a real intentional listener, I think you become a better communicator. And the conversation becomes more fun when that person that's delivering an important message that he has a captive audience. So I think, one, you say ego, I think, is more insecurity. Right? So I actually love throwing myself in a room where everyone else is smarter, and I just get to go out and have great conversations and continue to in my educational journey.

我认为求知欲是成功的关键，而你似乎拥有强烈的求知欲。这个评价中肯吗？

I think intellectual curiosity is a key to success and you seem to have a lot of intellectual curiosity. Is that fair?

非常准确。事实上我每天清晨双脚落地前，都会用约三十秒做两个祷告：一是消减自我，二是增强自知之明。

Very much. As a matter of fact, I have two prayers I say every morning. Before my feet hit the ground, I say a prayer and usually about thirty seconds. And it revolves around two things. One is diminishing your ego and enhancing self awareness.

所以你想要自我意识提升而自负感降低。我发现当你在2009年2月赢得世界大赛时——就像我们洋基队打败费城人队那样——这两者的关系就会逆转。明白吗？自我意识下降，自负感上升。这是失败的配方。

So you want the ego to come down and self awareness to go up. What I found is when you win the world series in 02/2009, like we did with the Yankees and we beat the Phillies, those two kind of work backwards. Right? Self awareness goes down, ego goes up. That's a formula for failure.

因此要提醒大家，时刻检视自我意识和自负感真的非常重要。

So as a reminder, just really important to check the self awareness and the ego.

我很欣赏你谈论自我意识并以倾听为先导的方式，这非常有力量。我能想象你在指导运动员或经营创业公司时，经常需要给予反馈，有时甚至是建设性的批评反馈。你是否有某种行之有效的哲学或方法来进行这类反馈？

I love that you're talking about self awareness and that you lead with listening, and I think that's really powerful. I can imagine you're in situations, either in the mentoring you do with athletes or the entrepreneurial businesses you run, that you have to give feedback, and you have to give sometimes constructive, critical feedback. Do you have a philosophy or approach that you see working for you when you give that kind of feedback?

马特，我认为首要的是建立信任。因为没有信任，无论传递什么信息都无济于事。如果我觉得你的反馈带有贬低意味，或并非出于真心想帮助我，那么无论建议多好都会失效。我早年就推行过这个方法。

I think first, Matt, you have to have trust. Because if you don't have trust, forget what the messenger is saying. It doesn't matter how good the message is. If I feel like you're gonna do it in a demeaning matter or not coming from love or a place to really help me, then the message is lost no matter how great the message is. I actually introduced this in my early days.

我称之为'绿黄红'机制，我们在ARED公司对所有团队成员都采用这种方式，每周或每月进行一次。本质上是通过游戏化来提供反馈：绿色代表做得好的方面，黄色是需要警惕的事项——它们不算严重但也不够理想。

I call it green, yellow, red, and we do this with all our team members at ARED Corp. And we do this either weekly or once per month monthly. And, basically, what it is, you gamify the feedback, which means greens are all the things you're doing well. Yellow are all the things you gotta watch. They're not quite red, but they're not quite green.

需要小心对待。红色则是必须立即停止的事项。有趣的是，现在几乎每个成员都会首先要求：'先告诉我红色部分'。这更像是个游戏，而且你是带着善意进行的。

Be careful. And then red is things you should stop immediately. And what's fascinating is when members now almost to every person, you know what they start with? Give me the red. It's, it's more of a game and you're doing it from love.

你稍微将其游戏化后，当你能转变这种范式，让人们真正期待建设性反馈时，这就是制胜之道。

You gamify it a little bit. And when you can shift the paradigm on that, where people are actually looking forward to the constructive feedback, that's a winning formula.

让我跟进一下。你是否营造了一个环境，让他们也能给你那种反馈？

Let me do a follow-up. Do you set an environment where they can give you that type of feedback as well?

哦，天哪。一直都是。一直都是。那是什么样子？我团队的凯利·拉费里尔，她是我的首席商务官，她在迪士尼和ESPN工作了很长时间。

Oh, my gosh. All the time. All the time. How does that look? Kelly Laferriere from my team, who's my chief business officer, she spent a long time at Disney and ESPN.

她是个很棒的女人。毕业于乔治城大学。她录了一段音频，对我直言不讳。前几天，大概五分钟，就是那种非常严厉的爱，我为此很喜欢。我说，好吧，你忘了绿色，也许还有黄色。

She's a wonderful woman. Went to Georgetown. She did, a little audio where she teed off on me. The other day, was, like, five minutes of just, like, really tough love, and I loved it for it. And I said, well, you forgot the green and maybe the yellow.

然后她说，不。黄色是这部分和那部分。我就说，哦，好吧。但是，绝对地，我认为这是我从体育中带来的主要东西之一。我有过一些很棒的经理，乔·托里，很多人赢得过四五个冠军，卢·潘内拉。

And she goes, no. The yellow is that part and that part. I'm like, oh, okay. But, absolutely, I think that's one of the main things I bring from sports. I've had some great managers, Joe Tory, many won four or five championships, Lou Panella.

这些人都是很棒的沟通者，但他们也有激励和鼓舞的能力，他们的话语非常有力量。

These guys are great communicators, but they're also they have an ability to inspire and motivate, and their words are very powerful.

实际上没有人需要知道他们做对了什么。你真正需要知道的是你做错了什么。

And nobody actually needs to know what they're doing right. You actually need to know what you're doing wrong.

没错。

Right.

所以这是一种积极的反馈。

So that's a good kind of feedback.

是的。顺便说一句，杰弗里，我对此有点不同意见。我确实认为，尤其是对那些才华横溢的人来说，他们有时也需要知道自己做对了什么。我常说球员需要偶尔拍拍后背鼓励，嘿，继续加油。因为不能总是红灯或黄灯警告。

Yeah. And by the way, Jeffrey, I disagree with that a little bit. I do think that, especially with highly talented people, they also need to know what they're doing right sometimes. I always say a player needs a pat, you know, on the back sometimes, Hey, come on, keep it moving. Because you it can't always be red or yellow.

有时候你得告诉他们，有些表现真的非常出色，值得继续保持。

Sometimes you got to tell them that something really good is jumping off the page and to keep that up.

当然，你曾因禁药丑闻遭遇挫折。这很有趣。我常对学生说，几乎每个职业生涯中都会发生坏事。问题不在于坏事是否会发生——因为它们当然会——而在于你如何恢复？

So you of course had a setback with the banned substances scandal. It's interesting. I tell my students all the time that in almost every career, bad things happen. And the issue is not are bad things gonna happen because of course they will. The question is how do you recover?

你如何培养韧性？所以谈谈这个吧，你是如何度过难关的，如何在商业生涯等各方面建立抗挫能力的。我认为韧性确实是成功的关键。

How do you build resilience? So talk about that, how you came through that, how you've built resilience to survive setbacks, not only in that, but in your business career, etcetera. I think resilience is really the key to success.

在讲述我人生低谷——那无疑是我最黑暗的时刻，也是我宝贵的学习经历之前，先说说失败。作为前棒球运动员的最大优势之一，就是身处一个行业：如果你70%的时间都在失败，最终却能进入名人堂。这很不可思议。想象一下，如果你们每教十节课，只有三节是好的，你们就会被解雇对吧？

Before I get into my low point, which was my darkest hour for sure, an incredible learning experience for me, a little bit on failing because one of the great advantages of being a former baseball player is that I live in an industry that if you fail 70% of the time, you end up going to Cooperstown, which is the hall of fame. It's remarkable. Imagine if out of every seven, ten classes you guys teach, three of them are good. You guys would be fired. Right?

但在我们这行，失败是被歌颂的。我常对人说，我是这项运动史上三振出局次数第五多的人。这意味着人类历史上只有四个人比我失败得更多。所以我总告诉女儿们：爸爸有失败博士学位，但拥有重新站起来的硕士学位。关键是要记住如何以同样的活力和热情重新振作。

But for us, it's celebrated. So what I mean by that, I always tell people that I'm fifth all time in the history of the game, fifth in the history of strikeouts. That means there's only four people in the history of mankind that have ever failed more than me. So I always tell my daughters that daddy has a PhD in failing, but I have a master's in getting back up. And I think that's the key to remember is how you get back up with the same energy and enthusiasm.

因此，若将这一框架与我因违反药物规定而遭受的禁赛——我服完了美国职棒大联盟历史上最长的禁赛期——结合起来看，我花了很长时间才走到今天。但有三件事我由衷感激：第一，你必须完全承担责任，这关乎自我认知，即全然的担当。没有借口可找，无人可指责，镜中直视的那个人就是我自己。

So if you put that framework with my suspension, my PDs, which I served the longest suspension in Major League Baseball history for PDUs, it took me a while to get here, but I think it was three things that I really I'm thankful for. Number one is you gotta take full accountability, and this falls into self awareness, full accountability. There's no excuses. There's no one to blame. There's only one person and you're looking at them in the mirror and that's me.

这是第一点。我认为第二点是这促使我在过去十到十一年间持续接受心理治疗。治疗极为关键，因为它让我学会将审视的目光转向内在。你必须明白，从我15岁被称作全国最佳青少年球员，注定在两三年后成为选秀状元开始，直到近40岁被禁赛为止，我从未听过'不'字。这导致自我认知极度匮乏，而自我却极度膨胀。

That's number one. I think number two is that led me to over the last ten, eleven years being in therapy. And therapy was really important because it allowed me to turn the lens inward. And you gotta understand that ever since I was 15 years old, when they said Alex is the best 15 year old in the country and is gonna be the number one pick in two or three years to the time I got suspended almost 40, I never heard the word no. So you build very little self awareness, and the ego gets pretty inflated.

因此讽刺的是，心理治疗成为我重大错误带来的非凡副产品，其次是信息传达。这正是我们在战略转型中所做的。但若缺乏前两项基础，信息传达就毫无意义，只是空洞的形式。所以我坚信你必须承担责任，必须完成内心所需的任何功课。

So I think therapy has been an incredible byproduct, ironically, of my great mistake and then messaging. And this is what we do in strategic pivoting. But the messaging without the first two means very little, is hollow. So I do think you gotta take accountability. You have to have whatever work you have to do in yourself.

我通过一位拯救我生命的杰出治疗师完成了这个过程，所获教训令人难以置信，这让我现在能站在这里向年轻一代讲述我的错误，希望他们能避免重蹈覆辙。然后要沟通未来方向，但你必须先直面错误，立即解决它们——

I did it via therapy through a great therapist that saved my life, and lessons learned have been unbelievable, which has now put me in a position here where I'm able to talk to the next generation of young men and women about my mistakes, and hopefully they can avoid my mistakes. And then communication about what's next, and but you have to lead with the mistakes and just address it right off

——直接了当地。顺便感谢你如此坦诚真实的分享。我想谈谈真实性这个话题，你给人的感觉非常真实，我相信这是发自内心的。

the bat. Thank you, by the way, for opening up and being so candid and authentic. I'd like to talk a little bit about authenticity. You come off in a very authentic way. I believe it's very genuine.

你如何看待真实性带来的价值？正如你提到的，这需要自我认知。我很好奇你对真实性的看法。

How do you think about authenticity in terms of the value it brings? And it requires self awareness, as you've mentioned. I'm just curious your perspective on authenticity.

马特，你问这个很讽刺，因为在我接受治疗前的头二三十年里，这确实是我的痛点。我以前给人的印象非常圆滑——并非找借口，但我成长环境里充斥着圆滑之人。拉丁文化里有句'假装成功直到真正成功'。而我伟大的母亲，我心目中的英雄，年近九十的她，我曾看着她打两份工，凌晨三点起床在纽约通用汽车工作，晚上还要端盘子。我目睹了这种惊人的职业道德，但那是好的一面。

You know, it's ironic, Matt, that you're asking me about this because this is something that I really struggled for the first, I would say, twenty five, thirty years of my life before therapy because I came across as very slippery and not to make any excuses, but I grew up with a bunch of slippery people. You know, in the Latin culture, say fake it till you make it. And my great mom, who's one of my heroes, who's almost 90, I saw her working two jobs, getting up at 03:00 in the morning, working at General Motors in New York City, and then serving tables at night. And I saw this incredible work ethic. But that was the good.

糟糕的是，我从未从任何人那里得到过太多真相。当我完成治疗后，我开始能听出谁在胡说八道。以前我根本听不出来。这对我来说是个分水岭时刻——突然意识到，哇，这太神奇了。就像从看不见到能看见，从听不出别人胡扯到能识别出来，这也包括对自己说话方式的觉察。

The bad is, is like, never got a lot of the truth from anybody. Once I got through my therapy, I started developing an ear for saying, that person is really full of it. I was never able to hear that before. It's like a watershed moment for me that I'm like, oh, this is an incredible thing. It's like not being able to see, and now I can see, not being able to hear when somebody's full of it, and now you hear it, which also includes self awareness of how I sounded.

所以我和密友常做的一件事就是：'马特，注意看这儿。我可能会在这件事上耍滑头，所以盯紧我。确保我没问题。'这种互相指导的方式成了非常有效的工具

So one of the things I do with a lot of my close friends is, like, watch me here, Matt. I can become I can be slippery here, so watch me. Make sure that I'm good here. And that type of back and forth coaching and mentoring has been a great tool

对我来说，你能意识到这点已经很棒，更难得的是你会主动寻求他人反馈来改进。你对'可能不够真诚'的敏感度，值得我们所有人学习——既要提高自我觉察，也要借助他人帮助变得更好。在结束对话前，请听一段赞助商信息。

for me. I think that's wonderful that you actually, one, are aware, but you also ask others to give you that feedback so you can make those changes in the future. And the fact that you have a sensitivity to this might be a situation where I might have some inauthenticity. I think all of us can take a lesson from that to, one, raise our awareness, but two, enlist the help of others to help us be better. Before we finish our conversation, a word from one of our sponsors.

他们的支持让我们能免费提供优质内容。我信任大多数分享隐私的对象，但对网络供应商就没这么放心。和挚友不同，ISP可能不尊重你的隐私。某些地区的ISP被要求记录用户网络活动。在美国，ISP甚至可以合法出售你的浏览历史牟利。

Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. I trust most of the people I share personal information with, but I'm not as confident when it comes to my internet provider. Unlike your close friends, your ISP may not respect your privacy. Depending on where you live, ISPs may be required to keep logs of your online activity. In The United States, ISPs can legally sell your browsing history for profit.

好消息是：只要使用ExpressVPN就无需信任ISP。我一直在用ExpressVPN，最近出国旅行时更是靠它保护安全。它操作简单、全设备兼容且速度极快。立即访问expressvpn.com/thinkfast守护你的网络隐私。

The good news is you don't have to trust your ISP as long as you use ExpressVPN. I use ExpressVPN all the time. In fact, I relied on it heavily recently to keep me protected when I was traveling abroad. ExpressVPN is easy to use, works on all your devices and is super fast. Protect your online privacy today by visiting expressvpn.com/thinkfast.

再次重申：expressvpn.com/thinkfast。现在注册可额外获赠4个月服务。expressvpn.com/thinkfast。你以为更幸福的生活需要什么？更多金钱？更好的工作？或是ins风度假？

That's expressvpn.com/thinkfast. To find out how you can get up to four extra months free. Expressvpn.com/thinkfast. You might think you know what it takes to lead a happier life. More money, a better job, or Instagram worthy vacations.

你可能大错特错。耶鲁大学教授Lori Santos博士研究幸福科学发现，我们很多人正在做与真正幸福背道而驰的事。在她的播客《幸福实验室》中，她通过科学研究与惊人案例，彻底改变你对幸福的认知。今年秋季，跟随她为成年人精心挑选的返校书单，开启更幸福的人生篇章。

You might also be dead wrong. Yale professor, Doctor. Lori Santos has studied the science of happiness and found many of us do the exact opposite of what will make our lives truly better. On her podcast, The Happiness Lab, she takes you through scientific research and shares some surprising stories that will change the way you think about happiness. Join her this fall with episodes on our handpicked back to school reading list for adults looking to lead happier lives.

在您获取播客的任何平台收听《幸福实验室》。结束前，我会向所有嘉宾提出三个问题。第一个是为你量身定制的，其余问题则大同小异。你提到自己指导运动员。嗯。

Listen to The Happiness Lab wherever you get your podcasts. Before we end, I ask all my guests three questions. One, make up for you, and the rest are similar across everybody. You mentioned that you mentor athletes. Mhmm.

我很好奇，你通常最注重帮助他们退役后适应生活的哪方面？

I'm curious. What's the number one thing you tend to focus with them on to help them post playing?

我认为首要的是制定计划。其次是保持耐心。作为运动员你可能年长，也许三十出头或三十五岁左右，但在商业领域你还是个新手。我常引用两位偶像——查理·芒格和沃伦·巴菲特。查理将近百岁高龄，沃伦也正朝着这个目标迈进。

I think the number one thing is to have a plan. I think second is take your time. You may be old for an athlete, maybe you're in your early thirties or mid thirties, but you're a child in business. And I always refer to two of my heroes, Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett. Charlie almost went to a 100 and Warren is well on his way.

想想沃伦·巴菲特这样的人，他99.5%的净资产都是在五十岁生日后积累的，永远为时不晚。年龄从不是限制，思维模式才是。所以我总鼓励运动员们：保持耐心，与优秀的人为伍。就像打篮球，如果要选三人组队，你可能会选斯蒂芬·库里、迈克尔·乔丹和勒布朗·詹姆斯。

And to think about a guy like Warren Buffett that he's made 99.5% of his net worth after his fiftieth birthday is never too late. Your age is never a limit, but your mindset's the limit. So I always encourage athletes to take your time, surround yourself with great people. If you're playing basketball, if you had a one, who would be your top three? You'd probably say Steph Curry, Michael Jordan, LeBron James.

商业领域也应如此思考。去寻找世界上最优秀的人。作为运动员，这正是你的竞争优势之一。主动提问，没有愚蠢的问题。多做笔记，复盘跟进，就像训练那样反复实践。

Well, think about business the same exact way. Go find the best people in the world. And because you're an athlete, that's one of your competitive advantages. Go out there and ask questions, and there's never a dumb question. Take a bunch of notes, review, follow-up, and get your reps in.

所以核心在于思维模式和专注力。第二个问题：你欣赏哪位沟通者？为什么？

So it's about mindset, really, and that focus. Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

商界有几位，比如鲍勃·艾格的沟通方式我很欣赏。沃伦当然是传奇，他永远是房间里最聪明的人，但你从不会听到他打断别人。他的表达通俗易懂，连我的两个女儿都能理解得很清楚。

A few in the business world, I would say, I really enjoy the way Bob Iger communicates. Obviously, Warren's a legend. He's the smartest in every room he walks into, but yet you never hear him talking over anybody. Everyone's really understandable. Both my daughters can understand Warren really well.

这正是他和他朴实无华的证明。然后是玛丽·奥多斯，她是摩根大通的CEO，向杰米·戴蒙汇报。她是那里的资产财富管理负责人。她也是一位出色的沟通者，既是超级明星，又非常真诚、讨人喜欢，在沟通技巧上令人信服。

That's a testament to him and his simplicity. And then Mary Ordos, who's the CEO at, JPMorgan reports up to Jamie Dimon. She's the asset wealth management leader there. She's another wonderful communicator who is a superstar, but is also very genuine and likable and believable in her communicating skills.

所以我听到你说，你欣赏领导者身上那种平易近人和善于建立联系的特质。我的最后一个问题是，成功沟通的三大要素是什么？

So I hear you saying that being relatable and being connected are what things you admire in leaders. My final question for you is, what are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

我认为，首先这个人必须对所谈论的话题有足够的经验积累，也就是所谓的‘一万小时定律’，因为可信度无法替代。其次，要能充满激情且清晰地表达，避免过多行话和缩略词，尽量用最简单的语言传达。最后，这个人应该能引导我提出下一个问题，形成互动。独白从来都不有趣，我更喜欢对话。

I think someone that, I would say, has their ten thousand hours on whatever they're talking about, right, because you can't replace credibility. Someone who can speak passionately and clearly, and don't speak in too many jargons and too many acronyms, like really give it to me like as simple as possible and someone who can actually lead me to my next question. So there's a little bit of a revolver. Monologues are never fun. I much more have a dialogue.

这样更有活力，更具商业价值，更容易被接受，也更适合电视传播。保持简洁也非常重要。

It's more dynamic. It's more commercial. It's more sellable. It's better for television. Keeping it tight, I also think is really important.

我觉得很多沟通者常纠结于‘如何让自己听起来更聪明’，但真正该问的是：‘我的听众是谁？我能带给他们什么核心价值和收获？’因为沟通的本质是关于他们的。

I think a lot of communicators sometimes think about what do I have to do to be a great communicator to sound smart? I think you should be asking, who am I talking to? Who am I communicating with? And what nuggets and value can I bring them? Because it's really about them.

这是无私的行为，而非自私之举，两者天差地别。

It's an unselfish act. It's not a selfish act, and that's a big difference.

将沟通视为无私的行为，专注于他人，这绝对是核心要义。非常感谢你加入我们并分享这些真知灼见，以及所有其他的——

Seeing communication as an unselfish act, focus on others, absolutely the bottom line. I appreciate, you joining us and sharing those nuggets, as well as all of the other

你分享的信息。谢谢。

information you've shared. Thank you.

感谢您加入我们这期特别的《快速思考，智慧对话》播客，与我的同事杰弗里·菲佛一起探讨《菲佛谈权力》。请务必收听。想从著名运动员和教练那里学到更多，请收听第166期与安德鲁·拉克的对话和第153期与塔拉·范德比尔的访谈。本集由瑞安·坎波斯和我，马特·亚伯拉罕斯制作。音乐来自弗洛伊德·旺德，特别感谢Podium播客公司。

Thank you for joining us for this special Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast episode with my colleague Jeffrey Pfeffer of Pfeffer on Power. Be sure to check it out. To learn more from famous athletes and coaches, please listen to episode one sixty six with Andrew Luck and episode one fifty three with Tara Vandebeer. This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

请在YouTube及任何您获取播客的平台找到我们。记得订阅并为我们评分。同时，在领英和Instagram上关注我们，并访问fastersmarter.io获取深度视频、英语学习内容和我们的新闻通讯。考虑订阅我们的高级服务，获取扩展的DeepThinks剧集、《向马特提问》等内容，详情请访问fastersmarter.iopremium。我想分享的是，过去几个月我有幸与全球听众交流，了解播客对他们的影响。

Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended DeepThinks episodes, Ask Matt Anythings, and more at fastersmarter.iopremium. I wanted to share with you that over the past few months, I've had the amazing opportunity of talking to listeners across the globe about the impact the podcast has had on them.

我很高兴了解到听众如何应用我们在播客中讨论的原则和概念，以及这对他们生活产生的改变。这真的非常鼓舞人心。我代表所有制作团队成员感谢您的支持。我们期待为您带来新剧集、新技巧和更深度的知识，同时也恳请您的支持。制作这档节目需要投入大量时间和精力。

I love learning how people are applying the principles and concepts that we cover on the podcast and the impact that it has had on their lives. It is truly inspiring. Speaking on behalf of all of us that bring you the show, we thank you for your support. We look forward to bringing you new episodes, new techniques, and deeper knowledge, and we ask for your support. It takes time and effort to put this show on the air.

请继续提供您的想法，如果可能的话，我们非常欢迎您加入我们的高级会员。谢谢，期待下一个200期。

Please keep your ideas coming, and if you can, we'd love for you to join our premium. Thank you, and here's to another 200 episodes.