232. 暂停，勿慌：在高压时刻寻找平静

嗨，我是马特。在开始之前，先插播一条赞助商信息。他们的支持让我们能免费为您提供优质内容。我们醒着的时间约有三分之一在工作，但许多人却困在已不再适合的岗位上。这些困扰我都听过。

Hi, Matt here. Before we get started, a word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. We spend about a third of our waking hours working, but so many people feel stuck in their jobs they've outgrown. I've heard it all.

万一跳槽后情况更糟呢？我承受不起错误决定。失去现有头衔后我是谁？这些焦虑真实存在，也正是人们陷入职业困境的原因。今天的赞助商strawberry.me能解决这个问题。

What if the next move is even worse? I can't afford to take the wrong step. Who am I without the title I have? These feelings are real, but they're also why so many people feel stuck. That's where today's sponsor, strawberry.me comes in.

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网址是strawberry.me/smart。别再将就，开始打造你真正想要的职业生涯。沟通的本质是连接，但首先我们需要给自己预留连接的时间与空间。

That's strawberry.me/smart. Stop settling. Start building the career you actually want. Communication is all about connection. But first, we have to give ourselves time and space to connect.

我是斯坦福商学院战略沟通讲师马特·亚伯拉罕斯。欢迎收听《思维敏捷，言谈机智》播客。今天非常荣幸邀请到丹·哈里斯。他曾任美国ABC新闻台国家新闻主播，现主持《快乐10%》播客，著有《快乐10%》和《多动怀疑者的冥想指南》两本书。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I'm really excited to speak with Dan Harris. Dan is a former national news anchor for ABC News in The United States. He is the podcast host of 10% Happier and author of two books, 10% Happier and Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics.

欢迎你丹，期待今天的对话。

Welcome, Dan. I look forward to our conversation.

我也很期待，谢谢邀请。

Me too. Thanks for having me.

好的。我们可以开始了吗？好的。行。你对自己在直播中经历的恐慌发作非常坦率。

Yeah. Shall we get started? Yeah. All right. You are very open about an on air panic attack that you had.

能和我们聊聊那次经历吗？它如何改变了你以及你对生活的整体态度？

Can you tell us about the experience and how it changed you and your approach to life in general?

是的，那发生在2004年2月，二十一年前在《早安美国》节目中，当时我正在播报新闻，突然在直播过程中发现自己无法呼吸。其实你谷歌一下'电视上恐慌发作'，第一个结果就是我，这挺棒的。

Yeah, this happened back in 02/2004, twenty one years ago on Good Morning America, where I was anchoring the news and found myself unable to breathe in the middle of my shtick. Actually, you Google it, just Google panic attack on television. It's the first result, which is great.

所以你想回忆的时候随时都能看到。没错。

So you can be reminded of it whenever you want. Exactly.

正是我最想走红的那种方式。那次经历很可怕。后来我得知原因是我的消遣性药物使用，而这又源于911事件后我作为记者在战区长期工作。整件事就像一连串的失控。但好消息是它让我开始接受心理治疗，最终引导我接触冥想。

Just the type of thing I want to go viral for. Yeah, it was horrible. And afterwards, I learned that the cause of it was my recreational drug use, which had come about as a result of my having spent a lot of time in war zones as a reporter after nineeleven. And so the whole thing was just a cascade of mindlessness. But the good news is that it landed me in therapy and then ultimately led me to meditation.

后来我写了本关于冥想的书，大约十一年前出版的。无论是冥想实践还是写书这件事，都彻底改变了我的人生轨迹。从这个意义上说，它成了一种恩赐。

And then I wrote a book about meditation that came out about eleven years ago and that, you know, both the practice and writing a book about it completely changed the trajectory of my life. It's in that sense, it's been a blessing.

首先感谢你分享这个故事。公开谈论不幸经历需要勇气，谢谢你。我最初是通过你的书认识你的，我是这个历史悠久的读书会成员。我们读了你的书，它确实从根本上改变了许多人的行为方式。所以谢谢你。

Well, first, I thank you for sharing this story. It's hard to share publicly when bad things happen, but thank you. I first got to know about you through your book, and I'm part of this long standing book club. We read your book and it actually fundamentally changed some of the things that a lot of us do. So thank you.

我们的许多听众都在努力在沟通中感到更加自信和舒适。作为一个曾面对数十万、数百万观众进行交流的人，你能提供哪些具体策略或实践方法，帮助他们管理在这种交流中的焦虑感？

Many of our listeners are working to feel more confident and comfortable in their communication. As somebody who communicated in front of hundreds of thousands, millions of people, what specific tactics practices can you suggest to help them manage their anxiety around that type of communication?

成功人际沟通的目标之一，是让大脑的压力中心杏仁核保持离线状态，而让负责理性和逻辑的前额叶皮层保持在线。因此，你该如何构建对话框架，使其符合对方大脑的运作方式？如果你能提前规划并深思熟虑——比如思考'我这次对话的积极意图是什么'——这确实能降低你在重要对话前的血压。

One of the goals of successful interpersonal communication is to keep the amygdala, the stress center of the brain, offline and the prefrontal cortex, the locus of reason and rationality online. And so how are you going to frame this in a way that, you know, works with the brain of your interlocutor? And if you do that planning in advance and think through it, so what's my positive intention in this conversation? It really can reduce your blood pressure going into a high stakes conversation.

是的，这种专注和意图确实能带来巨大改变。通过构建框架，你可以专注于积极价值而非焦虑触发点。我很好奇，你当年做播音时是否会紧张？还是说只想象自己在对镜头说话，而忽略镜头后的观众？

Yeah, so that attention and intention can really make a big difference. Framing it is a way that you can be focused on the good and the value rather than the triggering of all the anxiety. I'm curious, when you were doing broadcasting, did you get nervous at all or were you just imagining talking to a camera and not all the people that were behind the camera?

噢，我每次都会紧张。现在上电视前依然如此。那次电视直播中的惊恐发作暴露了我患有恐慌症，至今仍在与之抗争。这是非常强烈的生理心理现象。但对着镜头说话时，明知镜头另一端有数百万实时观众，这种真实感确实难以忽视。

Oh, I got nervous every time. I still get nervous every time I have to go on TV. Mean, what the panic attack on television revealed is that I have panic disorder, so and I still struggle with it. It's very powerful physiological, psychological phenomenon. And yet there's something really so real about talking to a camera and knowing there are millions of people on the other side of it live.

没错。你看不见他们。某种程度上，这比现场面对成千上万的观众更让我恐惧。

Right. But you can't see them. And that in some ways to me is even more terrifying than getting up in front of thousands of people live.

是啊，某种程度上我们都在Zoom、Teams、Meets和WebEx会议中经历着迷你版这种情况——虽然能看到对方...我好奇，如果每次都会紧张，你会如何平复这种情绪？

Yeah, and in some ways we all do this in our own mini version of it when we are on Zooms, Teams, Meets, and WebExes, I'm although I guess we get to see curious, how would you calm some of that if it happened every single time?

首要方法是提前规划、练习和排练。我知道有些台词要表达，就会反复预演。这是任何人都能使用的技巧，无论是公开演讲还是与上司进行艰难对话——不仅要仔细构思内容，更要排练表达方式。当然要避免显得刻板或机械，而是让内容融入骨髓，从而带着一定自信进入对话。

The number one was planning and practicing and rehearsing. I knew I had some lines to deliver. I would really practice them and rehearse them in advance. That's another technique anybody can use, whether you're doing public speaking or going into a potentially tough conversation with your boss, is to really rehearse not only to think carefully about what it is you want to say, but to rehearse how you're going to say it. Hopefully not in a way that you come across as programmed or melodic, but in a way that you've got the content in your bones such that you have some measure of confidence going into the conversation.

非常好，是的。那种练习，那种排练能让你感觉更自在。是的。所以我百分百相信正念和冥想的价值，但我很难让心静下来保持不动。我发现自己更倾向于那些包含动作的冥想方式，比如瑜伽。

Excellent, yes. So that practice, that rehearsal helps you feel just more comfortable. Yes. So I 100% believe in the value of mindfulness and meditation, but I struggle to quiet my mind and just be still. I find myself gravitating towards types of meditation where movement is involved, so yoga.

多年来我一直在练习气功。我很好奇，对于像我这样理解冥想价值却难以静心的人，你有什么建议和指导？

For many, many years I've been doing Qigong. I am curious, what advice and guidance do you have for people like me who understand the value of meditation? It's just hard to quiet the mind.

嗯，有两点要说。首先，我认为你应该做对你有用的方式，听起来你已经找到了适合自己的方法。我没有任何原教旨主义倾向，有时甚至说自己教条地反对教条。所以你应该选择适合自己的方式。第二点是要破除关于清空或静止心灵的迷思。

Well, two things to say. First, I think you should do what works, and it sounds to me that you found things that work for you. I'm not a fundamentalist in any way, sort of sometimes say that I'm dogmatically non dogmatic. So you should do what works for you. The second thing is just to do a little myth busting on the clearing the mind or stilling the mind.

这不是正念冥想的目标。这实际上是对该练习一个有害的误解，可能是最具破坏性的误解。目标不是坐着让所有念头消失或感到平静之类。事实上，目标不是要达到某种特定状态，而是清晰地感知你当下的感受，这样你的情绪总体上就不会过多地支配你。

That is not the goal of mindfulness meditation. It's really a pernicious misconception about the practice, probably the most damaging misconception about the practice. The goal is not to sit and get all of your thoughts to evaporate or to feel calm or anything like that. The goal is, in fact, not to feel any kind of way. It's to feel whatever you're feeling clearly so that your feelings in general don't own you as much.

具体来说，如果你在冥想时尝试专注于呼吸，比如注意到自己走神了，然后从分心中醒来重新开始，紧接着下一秒又分心，再醒来重新开始——这才是正确的练习。你告诉自己这是失败的过程，实际上正是成功。整个目标就是尝试一次专注于一件事，分心，再重新开始。在那个分心又重来的瞬间，你正在见证某种重要而强大的事实：你拥有一个会思考的头脑，这些念头是狂野、失控、常常消极且重复的，而你不必对它们太过认真或代入。

So, just to get super granular, if you sit in meditation and try to focus on your breath, for example, and then notice that you're getting carried away, and then you wake up from distraction and start again, and then there's another distraction a nanosecond later, and then you wake up from that and you start again. That is correct practice. The thing that's happening that you're telling yourself is a failure is actually success. The whole goal is just to try to focus on one thing at a time, get distracted, start again. And in that moment of getting distracted and starting again, you are seeing something really important and powerful, which is that you have a mind and you are thinking, and that these thoughts are wild and out of control and often negative and repetitive, and you don't have to take them so seriously or personally.

你不必把每个神经质的冲动都付诸行动，就像我的冥想老师说的，把它们当作'微型独裁者'。总结来说：一，做对你有用的方式；二，别被误导认为冥想需要强行清空头脑——除非开悟或死亡，否则这不可能实现。你认为是冥想失败的迹象，实际上正是成功的标志。

You don't have to act out every neurotic impulse as if it was, in the words of my meditation teacher, a tiny dictator. So just to sum up, one, do what works for you. Two, don't be fooled into thinking that meditation requires you to forcibly clear your mind, which is impossible unless you're enlightened or dead. The thing that you're telling yourself is a sign of failure in your meditation is in fact a sign of success.

我非常感谢这点，因为这减轻了一些压力。我被你使用的语言吸引了。你说'醒来'。所以这是一种你正在建立的觉察。当你的思绪游离时，你会突然回到那个'哦，我刚才走神了'的瞬间。

I really appreciate that, because that takes some of the pressure off. And I'm drawn to the language you use there. You said you wake up to. So it's an awareness that you're building. So when your mind wanders, you then sort of snap back to that moment of, Oh, my mind was wandering.

与我惩罚自己的做法不同，你所说的是：好，现在我又重新集中注意力了。这其中蕴含着一个有趣的学习点。这对我很有帮助。这就是修行。这就是修行。

And instead of what I do, which is punish myself, what you're saying is, Okay, now I'm focused again. There's an interesting learning there. And that to me is helpful. That is the practice. That is the practice.

这不是阻碍或出了什么问题，也不是我要教你如何处理冥想中的这个难题。不，这就是修行本身。而觉醒才是关键，因为你正在意识到一个根本事实——你有这么多疯狂的想法，心智失控了，这很荒谬。你不想被它主宰。

It's not a hindrance or something gone wrong or like, I'm going to tell you how to deal with this problem in your meditation. No, that is the practice. And the waking up is the point because you are waking up to something fundamental that you have all these wild thoughts that the mind is out of control. It's ridiculous. And you don't want to be owned by it.

这种不断觉醒、重新开始的过程至少有两个作用：一是培养正念，即不被脑海中闪过的每个随机念头牵着走的自我觉察力；二是这种觉醒重启的练习，就像给大脑做二头肌弯举，它能改变与专注力相关的脑区结构。在这个注意力被不断攻击的时代，你正在重塑它们。

And this waking up, starting again, waking up, starting again does at least two things. One is it gives you mindfulness, which is the self awareness to not be yanked around by every random thought that pulses through your mind. And two, that practice of waking up, starting again, waking up, starting again. It's like a bicep curl for your brain in that it changes the part of the brain associated with focus. So in an age where our attention spans are under attack, you are rewiring them.

我非常喜欢这个观点。所以益处不仅在于你与想法之间产生的距离。我常教学生一个实用的焦虑管理技巧：只需对自己说'这是我在感到紧张'，给自己这点心理距离。但在这样做的同时，你也在强化专注能力。你讨论过回应与反应的区别，提到是从多年武术训练中学到的。能否详细阐述你如何看待这两者的差异？

I really like that idea. So the benefit is not just the distance that you get from your thoughts. There's a very useful anxiety management technique that I often teach my students, which is just to say to yourself, This is me feeling nervous and giving yourself that little distance and then you But need to do in so doing, you're also strengthening the ability to focus. You've discussed the concept of responding versus reacting in the work I've that you learned about this distinction in the martial arts training that I've done over the years. Can you elaborate on the difference between responding and reacting in terms of how you see it?

然后谈谈这对我们与他人或生活的互动意味着什么。

Then talk about what this can mean for how we interact with others or life in general.

是的。没有正念，没有自我觉察，与自己的念头、冲动和情绪毫无距离，你就像被自我这个恶毒傀儡师操控的木偶。当愤怒在脑海中升起，你会完全被它吞噬，深陷其中无法抽离，接着言行失控事后懊悔，最后把愤怒转向自我。有些人一生都活在愤怒里。

Yeah. Without mindfulness, without any self awareness, without any distance from your thoughts and urges and emotions, you're like a puppet controlled by the malevolent puppeteer of your ego. Anything that happens in your mind, get anger arises, and then you're fully engulfed by it. You're in it, and you have no distance from it, and then you say and do a bunch of stuff that you later regret, and then you direct the anger inwardly. We can live a whole lifetime in anger.

这虽是极端案例，但可悲的是并不罕见。很多人愤怒后会沉浸数小时。但要知道，情绪本就会自然来去。愤怒出现时，它并非铁板一块。

That's on the extreme edge, but sadly not uncommon. Many of us, you know, we get angry and then we spend hours in it. But, you know, emotions will come and go of their own accord. So anger arises. It's not a monolith.

这是一系列生理和心理状态，就像气象现象暂时汇聚在你的身心之中。你可以从正念的角度去关注它。哦，是的，我的胸口在发紧，耳朵开始发红，脑海中迸发出自以为是的念头或诸如此类的想法。

It's a set of physiological and psychological conditions like a temporary coming together meteorologically in your mind and body. And you can get interested in it from a mindful perspective. Oh, yeah, my chest is buzzing. My ears are turning red. I'm having a starburst of self righteous thoughts or whatever it is.

你可以任由这些感受来去。与其条件反射地付诸行动，不如在事后明智地回应。这是我们每个人都拥有的超能力，是与生俱来的权利。我们具备这种能力。

And you can let that come and go. And instead of acting it out reflexively, you can respond wisely on the other side. And that's a superpower available to all of us. It's a birthright. We have this ability to do this.

但在西方文化背景下，我们很少被教导如何运用这种能力。可想而知，掌握这种能力会如何改善你的人际关系。当然，没人能做到完美——至少我认识的人里没有。就我而言，虽然有所进步，但若前一天睡眠不足，我仍会更容易情绪化。不过现在，当对话中产生可能毁掉我接下来48小时婚姻的冲动时，多数情况下我能看着它升起又消散。

But in the Western context, we're rarely taught how to do it. And so you can imagine how this would redound to the benefit of your interpersonal relationships. And again, you're not going be perfect at this, or at least I don't know anybody who's perfect at this. And in my case, I've gotten better, but I still, you know, if I haven't slept enough the night before, I can be more reactive. But now, you know, if I'm in a conversation and I feel the urge to say something that's going to ruin the next forty eight hours of my marriage, more often than not, I can watch it come and go.

没错。这种训练能帮助你做到。你精准描述了我对这两个概念的体验——反应（reacting）本质上是重复行动，意味着你带着情绪反复在脑海中演绎；而回应（responding）则是当下即刻的处理。

Right. And that training helps you do that. You articulated well the experience I have with these two concepts, where reacting literally means to act again. So you're carrying it with you. You're acting it out in your mind again, and responding is dealing with it in the moment.

在你的播客中，我听过你讨论正念与效率的交集。你是否运用某些结合正念训练的技巧或最佳实践来提升工作效率？

On your podcast, I've heard you discuss the intersection of mindfulness and productivity. Do you have any hacks or best practices you employ to increase your productivity that leverages the mindfulness that you train?

是的，这是个反常识的技巧。有次我与我的冥想导师约瑟夫·戈德斯坦交谈——这位了不起的老人即将81岁，我跟随他学习约十五六年——我描述自己如何像跨栏般度过每一天：带着前冲的势头，不断完成待办事项清单。

Yeah, so this is a counterintuitive hack. I was talking once to my meditation teacher, who's this incredible guy, Joseph Goldstein, about to turn 81. And I've worked with him for, I don't know, fifteen years, sixteen years. And I was telling him how I kind of hurdle through my day. There's a kind of forward momentum, a toppling forward, checking things off my to do list.

在进行创造性工作时，我常感觉胸口有群蜂躁动，这种紧张感虽非持续存在，但已深植于我体内。仿佛需要这种内在紧绷才能完成任务。喜欢调侃我的约瑟夫说：'好东西不会来自紧绷状态，那只是你在犯傻罢了。'

And often while I'm doing creative work, I can feel kind of a swarm of bees in my chest. I'm nervous and not all the time, but that conditioning runs deep in me. And there's like this inner clench that has to happen to get anything done. And Joseph, who likes to make fun of me, said, The good stuff doesn't come from the clench. That's just you being stupid.

要知道，他说得完全正确。好的想法、深思熟虑的回应、扎实细致的工作并非来自匆忙行事，也不是靠强行压制和粗暴解决问题。我至今仍会这样，但已学会用正念觉察——‘啊，我内心又在紧绷了，我正在草率处理这件事’。我尝试将其作为反馈，一种唤醒觉知的正念钟声，提醒自己此刻反直觉的高效做法或许是躺在地上休息几分钟。

Which, you know, he's absolutely right. The good ideas, the thoughtful responses, the solid careful work doesn't come from rushing, doesn't come from clamping down and bulldozing through your problems. I still do this, but I've learned with mindfulness to notice, Oh yeah, yeah, I'm clenching internally. I'm rushing through this. And I try to use that as a feedback, a kind of mindfulness bell to wake up so that, you know what, actually the counterintuitive productivity move right now might be to lie down on the ground for a couple of minutes.

也可能是走到户外，赤脚踩在草地上之类的。这同样有违直觉，因为我们深信——我内心深处也如此认为——必须榨取每一天每一刻的生产力。但从长远来看，这反而会适得其反。

It might be to go outside and put my feet on the grass or whatever it is. And again, this is counterintuitive because we believe we need to and I have this in me in a deep way that we need to squeeze every moment of productivity out of the day. But that actually is counterproductive in the long run.

我听到你提到两点，对我个人和听众都极为重要：首先，我们必须关注身体的信号。我很容易忽视这些感受——‘我累了，但还是要硬撑’。其次，要敢于尝试看似‘不正确’的做法，这能创造灵感、创意与联结的机会。包括我在内，很多人固守‘成功就该如此’的刻板印象。

Two things I heard you say there that I think are really important for me personally and hopefully the others listening in is we have to pay attention to what's going on in our body and use it as a signal. It is very easy for me to bulldoze my way through those feelings. I'm tired, so I'm just going to keep chugging and listening to those feelings. And then the second is to be open to doing something that might not feel like the right thing to do that opens up the opportunity for creativity, for inspiration, for connection. And a lot of us, myself included, get locked into this is what success looks like.

比如认定‘会议必须此时以某种形式进行’，但或许取消会议或改到户外才是正解。倾听内心并保持开放心态，我认为这非常关键。

This meeting needs to happen in this way at this time. And maybe you cancel the meeting or you take it outside or whatever. Listening to ourselves and then being open, I think, are really important.

是的，这是很好的反思性倾听。你说得完全正确。我们的文化很少教导我们倾听身体信号，这又是另一个例证。

Yes. That was good reflective listening. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Again, this is another thing that we're not often taught in our culture, listening to the body.

所有这些都源于停顿与反思，这正是正念的意义所在。现在我想转换话题，从正念冥想转向您作为记者和采访者的专业领域。您经历过许多艰难场合的采访，能否分享优秀访谈的要素？以及关于提问与回答的建议？

And all of that comes from taking that beat and reflecting. That's where mindfulness comes in. I'd like to switch gears away from mindfulness and meditation and dive into your expertise as somebody who is a reporter, as an interviewer, etcetera. You've certainly interviewed lots of people, sometimes in very harrowing circumstances. Can you share some insights into what makes for a good interview and any recommendations for what makes for good questions and answers in an interview?

我个人感觉近年作为播客主持人，采访水平显著提升。关键进步在于反思性倾听——就像你刚才示范的那样——全神贯注聆听后，用自己语言简要总结。训练这项技能迫使我更专注地倾听。这对听众是种服务：我常需澄清受访者的回答，因为他们多是资深佛法修行者，使用听众陌生的术语。我会先确保理解其核心意思，若理解有误他们会纠正，我再反馈修正后的内容。

I personally feel that I've gotten to be a much better interviewer in recent years as a podcast host. And one of the things that I have found that has boosted my ability to be a good interviewer is reflective listening, which you were demonstrating earlier, which is just listening very carefully to what's being said and then giving the summary in your own words, often very briefly. And I found training that skill has forced me to listen much more closely. It's a service to the audience because I am summing up and often clarifying the answers, because many of the people I interview are deep dharma practitioners, and often they're using terms that the audience may not know, so I'll clarify that and then make sure that I understand the gist of what they're trying to say. And if I've got it wrong, they'll correct me and then I will reflect the correction.

因此，我确实在人际交往中运用了这项技巧。它彻底改变了我的面试技巧和人际交往能力。回顾这次访谈的开头，我们讨论过紧张时该怎么办。实际上，若你在重要对话前感到紧张，只需带着'复述、复述、再复述'的信念入场。这会给你时间让神经系统平静下来。

And so this has really I use this interpersonally to this technique. It has revolutionized my interviewing skills and my interpersonal skills. And I would say just to go back to the beginning of this interview, we talked about what do you do if you're nervous. Actually, if you're nervous for a big conversation, just going in with a tattoo on your arm to reflect, just reflect, reflect, reflect. It will give you the time to let your nervous system settle.

这种方式能软化对话对象，因为人们都渴望被倾听。当对方感到倾吐殆尽并获得你的反馈时，此时你可能已进入放松流畅的状态，这时就能畅所欲言了。

It will really tenderize your interlocutor because people love to know that they've been heard. And then once that other person has they feel like they've gotten it all out, you reflected it, you might be relaxed and in the flow at this point, and then you can say what you need to say.

我特别喜欢'深度倾听是让自己放松从而更好表达的工具'这个观点，这确实至关重要。你所实践和传授的正念，正是进行反思式倾听所需的。我常指导那些问我'如何成为更好的倾听者'的人：带着复述目的去听。因为当我们为复述而听时，我们是以更深层的方式捕捉核心要义。

I really like the idea that listening deeply is a tool to relax so you can speak better, and that's really, really important. Certainly the mindfulness that you practice and teach is what's required to listen in a reflective way. I will often coach people who ask me, how can I become a better listener? I will say, listen to paraphrase. Because when we listen to paraphrase, we listen for the bottom line in a way that's deeper.

正如你所说，这能建立更深连接，从而获得更多信息。所以这是适用于任何场合的绝妙建议，无论是朋友闲聊还是初次见面。现在我们将短暂休息，插播赞助商信息。他们的支持使我们能持续制作节目。关于秋季，我有几件挚爱之事。

And as you said, it allows for more connection, which invites more information. So great, great advice for any type of interview, be it just hanging out with a friend or meeting somebody for the first time. Now we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors. Their support helps us bring you our show. There are several things I love about fall.

我可以重返讲台授课，观赏最爱的体育赛事，在假期与亲友团聚。但这也意味着我会比平时更忙碌，尤其是备餐时间更少。这时HelloFresh就派上用场了——它将全新的晚餐解决方案直接送到您家门口。

I get to start teaching again. I can watch my favorite sports. I can see my family and friends at the holidays, but it also means that I am busier than usual with less time, especially for meal preparation. That's where HelloFresh comes in. HelloFresh brings a whole new way to do dinner right to your door.

本季度他们再创新高，推出史上最丰富的菜单：健康食谱包含高蛋白和蔬菜搭配。最佳烹饪方式现已升级。立即访问hellofresh.com/thinkfast10fm，即可获赠10份免费餐食加终身免费赠品（每箱一件，需活跃订阅，首箱以折扣形式兑现）。

This season, they've taken things to the next level with their biggest menu yet with healthy menus filled with high protein and veggie packed recipes. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com/thinkfast10fm now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. One per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discounts on the first box.

仅限新用户，具体条款因套餐而异。登录hellofresh.comthinkfast10fm领取10份免费餐加终身赠品。大家好，我是Matt。幸福是可习得的技能，何不尝试掌握它？每周在《10% Happier》播客中，资深记者兼畅销书作家Dan Harris会与顶尖科学家、冥想导师乃至特邀名人展开广泛对话，探讨效率、焦虑、觉悟与人际关系等话题。

New subscribers only varies by plan. That's hellofresh.comthinkfast10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. Hi, Matt here. Happiness is a skill you can learn, so why not try to master it? Each week on the 10% Happier podcast, veteran journalist and bestselling author Dan Harris chats with top scientists, meditation experts, and even the occasional celebrity in wide ranging conversations that explore topics like productivity, anxiety, enlightenment, and relationships.

你最近在《Think Fast Talk Smart》节目中听到丹分享了一些很棒的建议。每周跟随丹一起汲取古老智慧、现代科学和一点幽默，让自己感觉更好、做得更好、成为更好的自己。《10% Happier》播客，现在就在你获取播客的地方收听吧。在结束前，我想向所有嘉宾提出三个问题。

You recently heard Dan on Think Fast Talk Smart share some great tips to help you. Join Dan every week for a dose of ancient wisdom, modern science, and a little humor to help you feel better, do better, and be better. The 10% Happier Podcast. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. So before we end, I'd like to ask three questions of all my guests.

第一个问题是我专门为你设计的，第二个则是问过每位上过节目的嘉宾。你准备好了吗？当然。你沟通中的一项超能力就是善用类比和语言。我记下了你说的一些话。

One, I create just for you, and then two, I've asked everybody who's ever been on the show. Are you up for that? Sure. One of your superpowers in your communication is your use of analogies and language. I was keeping track of some of the things you said.

你提到了牵线木偶、大脑的二头肌、肚子里的一群蜜蜂。你是刻意使用这类工具来帮助人们理解吗？因为你做得非常出色，不仅在这次访谈中，在你的写作和我听过的演讲里也是如此。你对这些手法的运用有多自觉？

You talked about puppeteers, biceps for the brain, swarm of bees in our belly. Are you consciously thinking about using tools like that to help people understand? Because you do a very good job on it, not just here in our interview, but in your writing and in the things that I've listened to you speaking on. How conscious of those things are you?

谢谢你的肯定。我非常重视这一点。要知道，我并非受过完整训练的冥想导师、佛教大师或人类福祉领域的合格科研人员。我并没有真正的专业资质。

Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. Very conscious. You know, I am not a fully trained meditation teacher or a Buddhist master or a qualified scientific researcher into areas of human flourishing. I don't have any real expertise.

我唯一的专长是将这些极其有用的理念普及给大众，用幽默开场——通常是我自己的尴尬故事，然后为他们提供清晰的生活价值主张，最后示范这些方法的好处。我痴迷于思考：如何找到吸引人们接触这些理念的方式？我认为这些理念能极大改善个人生活，坦白说，对人类整体也极具价值。

The only area where I have some expertise is popularizing these incredibly useful ideas for broad audiences and communicating it to them in a way that first of all engages them with some humor and usually an embarrassing story on my side, and then a very clear value proposition for them in their own lives, and then modeling the benefits of that for them. And so, I'm obsessed with this idea of like, how can I come up with ways to engage people in these ideas that I think can massively improve an individual human life, and frankly, I think could be very valuable for, you know, the species writ large?

你花时间思考这些让我由衷欣慰。各位听众如果留意丹的实践方式，就会发现类比的力量——它能扎根记忆，帮助理解那些技术性解释可能晦涩的概念。通过类比和生动的描述，你完美示范了如何让知识更平易近人。

It really does my heart well that you spend time thinking about this. I think everybody listening, if you listen to what Dan has done and how he does it, the power of analogies to stick in someone's mind and to help you understand something that might not quite be as accessible if it were explained in a technical way, but using analogy, using descriptive words makes it more approachable. And you do a great job of role modeling that.

谢谢。每个行业的人都会形成让外行却步的行话，尽管他们不自知。这种现象存在于冥想或佛法圈，存在于心理科学研究，也存在于新闻行业。

Thanks. You know, people in every industry learn a kind of lingo that is off putting to outsiders, even though they don't know that that's what's happening. That happens in meditation or dharma circles. It happens in scientific psychological research. It happens in the news.

我们有一种奇怪的说话方式，就像机器人似的。但如果你能打破这种模式，用真正能触达人心的方式交流，那将非常有价值。

We have our own weird way of talking as if like we're kind of robots or something like that. And if you can shatter that and start talking in a way that actually reaches people, it's pretty valuable.

完全同意。翻译和可理解性的力量是巨大的。让我问第二个问题：你欣赏哪位沟通者？为什么？

Absolutely. The power of translation and accessibility is huge. Let me ask the second question. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

我立刻想到的是巴拉克·奥巴马。不仅因为他的修辞技巧，还经常在于他运用幽默的方式。另一个或许是我见过他最有力的沟通时刻，是在一个黑人教堂里——曾有枪手在那里杀害了许多人——他唱《奇异恩典》时唱得很糟糕。我觉得正因为他不擅长唱歌，反而让那一刻更具震撼力。

The name that just comes to mind is Barack Obama. Not only for his rhetorical skills, but also often through his use of humor. Another perhaps the most powerful moment of communication I've ever seen from him is when he sang poorly at a black church where a gunman had come in and killed a bunch of people. He sang Amazing Grace while speaking to the church. I think it was made even more powerful by the fact that he doesn't sing well.

这需要很大勇气，也非常感人。是的，我认为作为一对多的沟通者，他是独一档的存在。

So it took a lot of gumption to do that and it was very moving. And yeah, so I think as a one to many communicator, he is in his own league.

是的。人们常提及他的许多特质，但没人提到这种发自内心去做可能令人尴尬之事的勇气。感谢你为他的形象增添了这样的深度。丹，我的最后一个问题是：

Yeah. He is often mentioned for many characteristics. Nobody has brought up the gumption and willingness to do something from the heart that might be embarrassing. I appreciate you adding that richness to his description. My final question for you, Dan.

成功沟通的前三个要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

信息清晰、对自己和他人的温情，以及倾听。

Clarity of message, warmth for yourself and the other person, and listening.

清晰、温暖与倾听。这些我们都有所谈及，但我想深入探讨一点：对自己与他人的温暖。我们已讨论过对他人的温暖，现在谈谈对自己的温暖。

Clarity, warmth and listening. We've talked about all of these to some extent, but the one thing I'd like to just dive a little deeper in: warmth for self and other. We've talked about for other. Talk about warmth for self.

若想提升温暖指数——即爱、联结与共情的能力，你不能将自己排除在外。爱或温暖，无论你如何称呼它，都是一种全方位的能量。我并非说必须先爱自己才能爱他人。我们都知道许多人对外慷慨善良，却对自己相当苛刻。但若你不断自我贬低，这种能力就更难施展；若能拥有更温和的内在氛围——因为你更少防御、更易接纳、更少陷入自我思绪——这会提升你的人际关系质量，进而改善你的内在状态，因为人际关系是你幸福最重要的组成部分。

If you're going to try to boost your warmth quotient, your ability to love, to connect, to be compassionate, you can't leave yourself out. Love or warmth or whatever you want to call it is an omnidirectional force. And I'm not saying that you need to love yourself before you can love other people. I think that we all know many people who are really generous and kind and yet quite cruel to themselves. But it's harder to do if you're constantly kicking your own ass, and it's easier to do if you can have a balmier inner climate because you're less defensive, you're more available, you're less stuck in your own head, and that improves the quality of your relationships, which will in turn improve your inner weather because your relationships are the most important aspect of your happiness.

然后你的人际关系会改善，内在状态会更好。这就是我称之为‘老套的上升螺旋’的现象。这正是你想要的，而非相反的情况——我朋友称之为‘马桶漩涡’，即你对自己刻薄，迁怒他人，继而更加苛责自己，不断沉沦。

And then your relationships will improve, and then your inner weather will get even better. And that is what I call the cheesy upward spiral. And that's what you want to be on as opposed to the opposite, which a friend of mine calls the toilet vortex, where you're just, you know, mean to yourself and then you take it out on other people and then you're The mean to yourself even more and down you

我们与他人的联结始于自身，这是双向的。你所说的方向正是上升螺旋。丹，非常感谢，这番讨论极具启发性。我们涵盖了广泛话题，但归根结底都关乎‘在场’——确保你是在回应而非反应，并为自己留出时间，才能更好地为他人存在。真的非常感谢。

connection we have with people starts with ourselves and it's bidirectional and the direction you're talking about is the upward spiral. Dan, thank you. This was very enlightening. We covered a broad range of topics, but all fundamentally come down to this notion of being present, making sure you're responding and taking time for yourself so you can be available for others. Really appreciate it.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

感谢收听本期《快速思考，智慧对话》播客。想了解更多关于幸福与福祉的内容，请收听第179至182集的专题迷你系列。本期节目由凯瑟琳·里德、瑞安·坎波斯、H·阿什和我——马特·亚伯拉罕斯共同制作，音乐来自Floyd Wonder，特别鸣谢Podium播客公司。

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about happiness and well-being, please listen to our mini series on these topics in episodes 179 through 182. This episode was produced by Kathryn Reed, Ryan Campos, H. Ash, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

请在YouTube及您获取播客的任何平台关注我们。务必订阅并给予评分。同时，在LinkedIn和Instagram上关注我们，并访问fastersmarter.io获取深度解析视频、英语学习内容及我们的新闻通讯。欢迎考虑我们的高级会员服务，享受加长版DeepThinks剧集、AMA问答、向Matt提问环节等更多内容，详情请访问fastersmarter.iopremium。我想分享的是，过去几个月里，我有幸与全球听众交流，了解本播客对他们产生的深远影响。

Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended DeepThinks episodes, AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.iopremium. I wanted to share with you that over the past few months, I've had the amazing opportunity of talking to listeners across the globe about the impact the podcast has had on them.

我欣喜地发现听众们如何运用我们在节目中探讨的原则与概念，以及这些内容如何改变了他们的生活。这实在令人振奋。我代表全体制作团队，感谢大家的支持。我们期待为您带来新剧集、新技巧与更深入的知识。同时也需要您的持续支持。

I love learning how people are applying the principles and concepts that we cover on the podcast and the impact that it has had on their lives. It is truly inspiring. Speaking on behalf of all of us that bring you the show, we thank you for your support. We look forward to bringing you new episodes, new techniques, and deeper knowledge. And we ask for your support.

制作这档节目需要投入大量时间与精力。请继续提供您的宝贵建议。若条件允许，我们诚挚邀请您加入高级会员。感谢相伴，愿我们共同迎接下一个200期。

It takes time and effort to put this show on the air. Please keep your ideas coming. And if you can, we'd love for you to join our premium. Thank you, and here's to another 200 episodes.