234. 须知：以透明、品格与沉默引领

嗨，我是马特。在开始之前，先插播一条赞助商信息。他们的支持让我们能免费为您提供优质内容。在《快速思考，智慧表达》节目中，我们追求高效——从撰写面试问题到打磨邮件、提案和演讲笔记。

Hi, Matt here. Before we get started, a word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge. Here at Think Fast, Talk Smart, we move fast. From writing interview questions to crafting emails, proposals, and presentation notes.

但在不同工具间切换处理这些内容确实会拖慢效率。切换标签页、在应用间复制粘贴、试图记住最后编辑的位置，这些既耗时又令人沮丧。所以我使用Grammarly，这款专为专业人士设计的工具，能让你在一个平台完成从空白页到完美终稿的全流程。既然人工智能已成趋势，何不善加利用？

But juggling all those pieces across different tools, that can really slow you down. Switching tabs, copying and pasting between apps, trying to remember where the last edit lives, it's time consuming and quite honestly a little frustrating. That's why I use Grammarly. It's tailor made for professionals who need to take a project from blank page to polished finish all in one place. And AI isn't going anywhere, so why not use it to your advantage?

Grammarly的实时建议、语气反馈和AI聊天功能加速了我的构思和润色过程。让创意持续涌动，专注于核心信息。立即免费注册体验Grammarly如何提升你的专业写作，请访问grammarly.com/podcast。高效领导者与沟通者都注重清晰度、语境和品格。

Grammarly's real time suggestions, tone feedback, and AI chat help me brainstorm and fine tune faster. So keep your ideas flowing and stay focused on what really matters, your message. Sign up for free and experience how Grammarly can elevate your professional writing from start to finish, visit grammarly.com/podcast. That's grammarly.com/podcast. Effective leaders, effective communicators focus on clarity, context, and character.

我是斯坦福商学院战略沟通讲师马特·亚伯拉罕斯，欢迎收听《快速思考，智慧表达》播客。今天很荣幸邀请到斯坦利·麦克里斯特尔将军。这位退役四星上将曾任驻阿富汗美军及国际部队司令，是领导力领域的权威专家，以革新反恐行动和在复杂环境中打造高效团队著称。

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. Today, I am grateful to speak to general Stanley McChrystal. General McChrystal is a retired four star general, former commander of US and international forces in Afghanistan, and renowned expert on leadership. He is best known for revolutionizing counterterrorism operations and building cohesive teams in complex environments.

他著有《团队中的团队》等畅销书，最新作品《论品格：定义人生的选择》广受好评。欢迎您！我期待这次对话已久，非常感谢。

He is a highly successful author with books like Team of Teams and his latest On Character, Choices That Define a Life. Welcome. I have been excited for this conversation for a long time. Thank you.

马特，感谢邀请。我也同样期待这次交流。

Well, Matt, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it as well.

太好了。我们开始吧？麦克里斯特尔将军，我是您《团队中的团队》的忠实读者，书中提到的共同意识和信息共享理念令人印象深刻。

Excellent. Should we get started? Please. General McChrystal, I'm a huge admirer of your book, Team of Teams. And in it, talk about shared consciousness and shared information.

在电子邮件和Slack消息泛滥的环境中，领导者能做些什么来建立这种共享意识？我们如何才能围绕一个共同的观点真正团结起来？

What is it that leaders can do to build that shared consciousness, especially in an environment where we're drowning in emails and Slacks? How can we actually come together around a shared point of view?

我在军旅生涯后期发现，信息共享的首要问题是存在天然的垂直孤岛。等级制度还会为信息流动设置其他障碍。在金字塔式的层级结构中，信息往往严格遵循上下级路线流动，横向传播则较为困难——除非被鼓励甚至强制要求。因此我发现，首先需要改变思维方式。过去在军队里，你绝不会因未分享信息而受责，却可能因未经上级批准擅自共享信息遭到批评。

The first thing about sharing information that I found later in my military career is we had natural silos vertically. And then we also had the hierarchy creates other boundaries for the flow of information. So information in structures, bureaucracies, think pyramid shaped hierarchies, tend to follow carefully prescribed routes up and down and whatnot, and not across as easily, unless it is encouraged and in fact demanded. And so what I found was first, you need to change the mindset. In the old days in the military, you never got in trouble for information you didn't share to someone, but you could be criticized if you shared some information that you didn't have approval from your boss or your chain of command.

所以我们尝试彻底扭转这种观念，强调你有责任告知他人他们需要知道的信息。接着你会问：我怎么知道他们需要什么？答案是永远无法完全确定。因此默认做法应该是分享，甚至过度分享。事实上，当我接管反恐部队时（这是个由多机构组成的复杂群体），我就提出过这样的观点。

So we tried to flip that on its head and say that you are responsible for informing other people of things that they need to know. And then you say, how do I know what they need to know? And the answer is you never really do. So the default needs to be to share and then overshare. In fact, I said something when I took over the counter terrorist force, which was a complex community of different organizations.

目标是让所有人随时掌握所有信息。这显然不现实，但共享意识的核心在于：我们对当前形势和任务目标拥有共同的情境认知。这样人们做决策时就不必事事请示，因为他们已掌握背景信息。我最大的发现是：先改变信息共享规则，再逐步改变信息共享文化。情境认知至关重要，方法就是让所有人获取全部信息，不必担忧'信息即权力'可能带来的负面影响。

The goal is to have everyone know everything all the time. Now that's impossible clearly, but the concept of shared consciousness is we all have a common contextual understanding of what the situation is, what we're trying to do. And then people can make decisions without going and get approval for everything they're going to do because they have the context, they're informed. And so the biggest thing I found was first change the rules of information sharing and then more slowly change the culture of information sharing. So context is critical and also the approach being that the idea is get all the information to everybody and not worry about the potential negative ramifications of that that information is power.

人们不愿分享信息是担心自身重要性降低。因此打破这种分享顾虑非常关键。最后一点我在商业领域更常见：我们总想'别吓到孩子'，所以不愿告知收入下滑或市场遇阻的消息。

You don't want to share information because someone knows that you won't be quite as important. So it becomes very important to break down those hesitations in sharing information. And then there's the last one, which I really see more in civilian business. We don't want to scare the children. So we don't want to tell them that revenue's down or that there are headwinds in the marketplace.

现实是当团队处于信息真空时，他们会用最阴暗的猜测来填补——毕竟...

The reality is when we leave a vacuum in our teams, they fill it with the darkest ideas available because there are

外界存在各种信息源，其中很多并不可靠。所以重点不是封锁信息，而是与你团队已接收的信息竞争。这个观点非常有力：如果你不主动沟通，人们会自行填补真空，而结果可能比现实糟糕得多。我完全认同改变思维方式和做法的重要性，对此很感兴趣。

all sorts of information sources out there, many of which are very flawed. So you have to not try to prevent information. You have to compete with information that they're already receiving. That's a really powerful point that if you're not communicating, people will find and fill that vacuum on their own, and it might be much worse than what the reality is. I'm curious, I totally appreciate and understand changing the mindset and approach.

你是否实施或见证过某些确实有助于强化这一点的措施？领导者说‘分享一切，让我们信息同步’是一回事，但很多人天生可能不会这么做。那么是通过树立榜样吗？还是

Were there certain things that you've implemented or have seen implemented that really help reinforce it? It's one thing for the leader to say share everything so we all have the same information, but a lot of people inherently might not do that. So is it role modeling? Is it

在做得好的时候给予奖励？你实际上如何促使人们做到这一点？我可以提到几点。首先当然是榜样作用。高层领导必须尽可能保持透明。

rewarding when it's done well? How do you actually get people to do that? I could mention several. The first of course is role models. Senior leaders have gotta be as transparent as they can.

我们倾向于仰望那些像狮身人面像般偶尔才发声的CEO，但我发现过度沟通反而更好。其次，你必须建立允许这种沟通的流程和技术。如今信息技术无处不在，我们几乎可以随时联系到每个人。我们需要利用这一点。

We like to look up at the sphinx like CEO who only pronounces something occasionally, but I found it's better to over communicate. The second is you've got to set up processes and technologies which allow that. And so nowadays with information technology as omnipresent as it is, we can usually reach everybody almost at any time. We need to leverage that.

所以这实际上关乎人、流程和工具，这些才是真正推动变革的方式。谢谢。你经常在军队、政府、国际合作伙伴和当地民众等非常多样化的环境中工作，这些群体目标、沟通方式和文化规范差异巨大。你如何调整以确保清晰度并建立信任，尤其是在非常模糊和不确定的时期？

So it's really about people, process, tools are the ways that you actually affect that change. Thank you. You have often worked in very diverse situations with military, government, international partners, and local populations. All of these have very different goals, communication styles, and cultural norms. How do you adapt to ensure clarity and build trust, especially when you are in very ambiguous and uncertain times?

是的，马特，首先你必须认识到这一点。我记得并描述过这样的场景：在阿富汗与普什图长老会面时，我们语言不同、宗教不同、文化不同。所以当我坐下来交谈时，沟通中的文化鸿沟显而易见。因此我们在交流时非常谨慎。

Yeah, Matt, first you have to start out by recognizing it. I remember, and I've described this, I'd be in Afghanistan. I'd be meeting with Pashtun elders with a different language than I spoke, a different religion, a different culture. So when I sat with them and talked, it was just absolutely obvious that we had a cultural divide in communicating. And so we were very careful about how we communicated.

然后我会见美国国务院的人，比如他们讲英语。我们有共同的文化、共同的宗教等等。但实际上文化差异依然巨大。我可能用军事术语说话，以为对方能像我期望的那样理解，但事实并非如此，反之亦然。有时仅仅是头衔、制服或组织差异就会造成这种隔阂，但我们似乎对此不够敏感。

Then I would meet with people from the US Department of State, for example, they speak English. We have a shared culture, a shared religion, all of those things. But actually the cultural divide was huge And I could be speaking military and thinking that it is being heard with the same kind of understanding that I hope it will. And that wasn't the case and then vice versa. And sometimes just titles or uniforms or difference in organizations can create this, but we don't seem sensitive to that.

于是我们走出房间说‘马特就是个蠢货，态度恶劣，不听人话’。而实际上，马特看待问题的角度与我完全不同。我们需要理解这一点。

And so we walk out of the room and we say, Matt's just, he's stupid. He's got a bad attitude. He doesn't listen. When in fact, Matt comes at it from a completely different direction than I do. And we need to appreciate that.

确实，我在许多场合被指责为愚蠢和准备不足，但你的观点非常明确：我们必须首先欣赏并理解差异。有时这些文化差异不仅体现在外表或地理位置等外在方面，甚至在同一组织内部也存在文化差异。你和国务院的同事同属美国政府。因此，认识到这一点并相应调整沟通方式至关重要。

I have certainly been called stupid and unprepared in many situations, but the point you are making is very clear that we have to first appreciate and understand the differences. And sometimes those cultural differences aren't just the things you see on the outside, how somebody looks or where somebody is located. Those cultural differences can be within the same organization. You and your colleagues in the State Department are part of the US government. So really important to recognize it and then adjust your communication for sure.

所有领导者都不得不传达困难的消息和具有挑战性的信息。可能是一个失败的项目、战略变更，甚至是负面反馈。你如何着手传达坏消息或挑战性消息？是否有某种结构或方法，你觉得能帮助你更成功地完成这一任务？

All leaders have to give difficult news and challenging information. Maybe it's a failed project, a change in strategy, or even negative feedback. How do you approach giving bad news or challenging news? Is there a structure you use, a way of going about it that you have found helps you to be more successful?

是的。我认为首先要尽可能清晰且迅速地传达信息。试图淡化问题的严重性或粉饰太平并没有真正的好处。所以我认为你应该一开始就说，好吧，我有一些非常严肃的信息要传达。这就是。

Yeah. I think the first is you've got to communicate it as clearly and as quickly as you are capable of doing. There is no real advantage in trying to make it seem not as serious as it is or to sugarcoat it. And so I think you start by saying, okay, I've got some very serious information to pass. Here it is.

不过，还有一点，偶尔领导者会这样做，然后想离开房间，扔下炸弹然后想离开。背景非常重要，因为如果CEO走进公司说，每个人的工资将被削减50%，生活很艰难，然后离开。你会得到每个人的一种反应。如果CEO说，好吧，让我直说吧。每个人的工资都在削减。

Now, the other thing though, occasionally a leader will do that and then want to walk out of the room, drop the bombshell and want to walk out of the room. Context is very important because if a CEO walks into the company and says, everyone's pay is going to be cut 50%, life's hard, and walks out. You get one response from everybody. If the CEO goes, okay, let me be upfront. Everyone's pays being cut.

这是原因。这是背景。这是理由。这是我们要做的。现在你必须避免说，你知道，一切都会好起来的这种诱惑。

Here's why. Here's the context. Here's the rationale. Here's what we're trying to do with it. Now you got to avoid the temptation to say, and you know, it's going to be okay.

如果你不确定是否会好起来，但你可以传达这样的信息：我致力于这个团队。我们将一起度过难关。如果我们回想COVID-19刚开始的时候，最大的问题是不确定性。所以我们不得不与现在地理上分散的队友沟通。他们中的许多人坐在公寓里或厨房桌旁。

If you're not sure it's going to be okay, but you can communicate things like I am committed to this team. We will work through this. If we think back to COVID-nineteen, when it first started, the great thing was uncertainty. And so we had to all communicate with our teammates who are now geographically distributed. And many of them are sitting in their apartments or at their kitchen table.

他们不知道自己是否还能保住工作。他们不知道如何互动。所以我们可以沟通，嘿，这很严重。我们不知道具体会如何发展，但你可以指望的是，我将致力于你们的福祉。

They don't know if they're still going to have a job. They don't know how to interact. And so we can communicate, Hey, this is serious. We don't know exactly how it's going to play out, but here's what you can count on. I'm going to be committed for your welfare.

只承诺那些你能力范围内能做到的事情。

Promise those things that are within your power to promise.

所以在我看来有三点至关重要。首先是清晰度，要非常明确和直接。其次是理解并重视情境，并始终围绕该情境展开。我还听你谈到了连接性，即真正与人建立联系，不只是传递信息后离开，而是将信息和后续步骤与个人紧密相连。我认为清晰度、情境和连接性这三个步骤对任何沟通都极其重要，尤其是面对挑战性沟通时。

So it sounds to me like three things are really important. One is clarity, being very clear and direct. Second is understanding and appreciating the context and sticking in that context. And then what I also heard you talking about was connection, really connecting to the people, not just dropping it and running, but connecting the information and the next steps to the individuals. And I think those three steps of clarity, context, and connection are really important for any communication, let alone that's challenging.

我想跟进你提到的COVID疫情情况，因为它从根本上改变了我们的沟通方式。当时我们都处于远程隔离状态。当你通过屏幕进行领导和沟通，且大家不在同一空间时，你是如何应对的？你采用了哪些最佳实践来保持效率，继续与所领导的人建立联系和信任？

I'd like to follow-up on this COVID situation that you mentioned, because that fundamentally changed the way we communicated. We were all remote and distanced. How have you dealt with leading and communicating when you're doing it through a screen, when not everybody is in the same room? What best practices do you employ to help you be effective and continue to connect and build trust with those you're leading?

是的。马特，让我从头说起。其实我在这方面早有经验，因为从2003年2月开始，在反恐部队时，我的部队就分散在27个国家的76个基地。那时我们刚开始使用安全视频会议系统，基本上所有沟通都通过这种方式进行。

Yeah. Let me start, Matt. I actually had a head start on this because in the counter terrorist force starting in 02/2003, my force was spread across 76 bases in 27 countries. And we were just at the beginning of secure video teleconferencing. And so that's how we communicated essentially all the time.

我从中领悟到几点。首先，这种方式的效率远不如我们想象的那么高，它无法替代面对面交流。因此首要原则是：只要有机会（通常是线下见面）就建立关系，为后续远程沟通打下基础。比如如果你我私交甚笃，我们的虚拟沟通效率就会比陌生人之间高得多。

Now I learned a number of things. I learned first that it's not nearly as effective as we want to believe it is. It's not like being in the room. And so the first is you try to build up whenever you have the opportunity, usually in person that you can then build and communicate later. So if you and I had a real close personal relationship, we could then do virtual things at a much higher level of effectiveness than if we didn't know each other.

所以沟通需要建立在基础上。其次是组织内部不同层级间的沟通尤其容易出问题。比如作为司令官，当我与基层士兵视频时，他们出现在屏幕上明显很紧张——毕竟从未与这么高级别的长官对话。这时我会先问候'苏珊你好吗'，他们往往惊讶'长官怎么知道我名字？'

So you're building upon a foundation. The next thing is communication, particularly between different ranks in an organization can be fraught. So for example, I would communicate with very junior people and I was commanding general and they would come on the screen and clearly they are terrified because they've never spoken to someone that senior before. And I tried to first say, hello, Susan, how are you? And in many cases they go, how does he know my name?

其实答案是我准备了备忘单，因为我知道这很重要。在他们汇报结束后，即使知道答案我也会提问。这有两个目的：一是表明重视他们的工作并认真倾听，二是给他们再次展示专业能力的机会——你在逐步建立他们的信心和彼此的关系。我绝不会只是沉默地说'谢谢'就结束。

Well, the answer is I had a cheat sheet because I knew that was important to do that. And then when they communicated at the end of their communication, I would always ask a question, even if I knew the answer. And that was for two things. It was to communicate to them that what they are doing is important and listening, and to give them another opportunity to demonstrate their expertise because you're building their confidence and you're trying to build this relationship as you go. I would never sit there just quietly and go, thank you.

或者说好吧。因为如果你是个年轻人，向马特·亚伯拉罕汇报工作，结束时只说一句‘谢谢’，我完全不知道你是想说‘谢谢，糟糕透了’还是‘谢谢，太棒了’。

Or okay. Because if you're a young person and you brief Matt Abrahams, and then at the end of it, you just go, thanks. I have no idea whether you're thinking, thanks, that was terrible. Or thanks. That was great.

所以你必须放大积极情绪，谨慎处理消极情绪。我发现如果我 multitasking（多任务处理），比如你汇报时我低头看电脑或和旁边人说话，一是不尊重，二会让你尴尬，更会让人失去沟通欲望，导致交流变得异常困难。最后，传达坏消息时必须格外小心。

So you have to exaggerate your positivity. You have to be very careful about your negativity because I found that if I am multitasking, if you're briefing me and you spend a lot of time and I'm down looking at my computer, I'm talking to the person next to me, one, it's disrespectful and it's embarrassing to you. And two, it just, it makes you not want to communicate. And so it becomes really difficult. And finally, if you got bad news to communicate, that's gotta be done very carefully.

因为面对一群人时，若有人犯错被你当众指正，不像线下会议结束后可以走到对方身边拍拍肩膀，约着喝咖啡什么的。他们会一直纠结于你认为的负面印象。所以这非常重要。另外在大群组里，连面部表情都要注意——有人汇报时，我曾摘下眼镜揉眼睛，结果聊天室立刻炸锅：‘老头为啥不高兴？’

Because if you got a group of people and someone does something and you sort of take them on, it's not like in a room where at the end of the meeting, you can walk to the end of the table and put your hand on their shoulder and go to the coffee maker or something like that. They are going to literally stew in what they think was your negative impression. And so it becomes very important. And then the last thing in big groups, you even have to watch your facial expressions because somebody's briefing you. And I used to take my glasses off and go like this and the chat rooms would light up and they'd say, what's bothering the old man?

其实有时我只是擦擦脸，但我意识到：不在同一空间时，人们依赖的线索更少，所以会过度解读。我们必须清醒认识到虚拟交流完全不同。很多人说‘现在我们是虚拟社会了，不需要面对面’——

Well, sometimes you just had to wipe my face off, but I became sensitive to the fact that without being in the room, they are relying on fewer cues. And so they over index on those. And so I think we've all got to make a real conscious effort to understand that virtual is not the same. And a lot of people say, no, we're a virtual society. Now we don't need to be in person.

我的反驳是：疫情期间我们发现孩子的远程教育效果很差。有人会说‘那是孩子’，不，所有人都一样。既然教育领域证明远程行不通，我们凭什么相信远程工作能达到预期效果？

My counter to that is we found out during COVID that remote education for our children doesn't work very well. And you say, well, that's kids. No, that's all of us. And we ought to pay attention to that because if it didn't work, hasn't worked in education. Why do we want to tell ourselves we're as effective remotely working as we want to believe we are?

最后这点非常关键。想想看，受过专业沟通培训的教师都难以做好远程教学，我们这些没受过训练的人又怎能做到？你提到的非语言存在感很重要——当线索变少时，我们会格外关注它们。

That last point is a really important one, because if you think about it, you have teachers who have been trained in ways to communicate and to connect. And if they can't make it work, how can we expect those of us who don't have that training to be able to do it? So several things there that you said are really important. I'm gonna start with the nonverbal presence. When we have fewer cues, we really pay attention to them.

我们必须做好基础动作，比如说话时看着摄像头，时刻提醒自己：行为传递的信息不亚于语言。主动建立联结和舒适感至关重要，尤其在没有既定关系时。我很欣赏你不仅通过称呼名字建立联结，还会在结束时用提问、复述或总结来确认理解——虚拟环境迫使我们用这些方式证明‘我在认真倾听’。

And we have to make sure that we do things as simple as looking at the camera when we're talking to people, reminding ourselves that what we do signals information, not just what we say. The fact that you would go out of your way to build connection and comfort is really important because when we don't have that preexisting relationship, it really is mandatory that we actually try to connect. And I love that you would not only connect with the person by identifying their name, but at the end, you would check-in with them through asking a question, others paraphrase or summarize. There's a lot you can do to signal that you're interested and that you heard the person. And being virtual really forces us to do that.

非常感谢您分享这些最佳实践。在您最新那本关于品格的著作中——我非常喜爱这本书，认为它在当今时代尤为重要——您提出品格是迭代形成的。它是通过一系列选择和行动构建的。个人如何利用日常行为和沟通作为工具，来促进自身品格的发展呢？

So thank you for those best practices. In your latest book on character, which I love and think is really important, especially in this day and time, you argue that character is iterative. It's built through a succession of choices and actions. How can individuals leverage their everyday action and communication as tools for their own personal development of their character?

是的，马特，我对此感受非常强烈。谢谢你的赞美。当我们开始某件事时，比如开始节食、戒烟或对自己做出其他承诺——我打算以不同于以往的方式行事。

Yeah. I feel very strongly about that, Matt. And thanks for the kind words. We start something, think of a diet you start, or you quit smoking, or you make some other promise to yourself. I am going to do something differently than the way I've done it.

这将在某些方面让我成为更好的人。当你坚持这些行为时，通常持续时间越长，你就越有理由不打破这个连续性。如果你节食两天就中断，可能感觉不太糟；但若坚持了两个月，你会说'我不想破坏它，因为我感觉真的很好'。品格的培养也是同样的道理。

It's going make me a better person in some ways. As you do those things, typically the longer you go, the more reason you have not to break the string. If you've been on your diet for two days, you can break it and you don't feel that bad. If you've been on it for two months, you say, I don't want to break this because I really feel good. On character, the same way applies.

其中有些只是简单的习惯。比如'我要诚实'。你可能会说：'等等，我是个诚实的人，不需要提醒自己'。

Some of them are just simply habits. I am going to be honest. And you might say, no, wait a minute. I'm an honest person. I don't have to remind myself.

但我们确实需要自我提醒。我们必须提醒自己什么是正直，在每个互动中打算做到何种程度的诚实。我们必须以此要求自己——如何待人接物，展现多少尊重，给予多少宽容。这需要我们建立明确的标准：'我对待这类人、这种情况的标准是这样，我不会违背它'。

We do have to remind ourselves. We have to remind ourselves what we mean by integrity, how honest we intend to be in every interaction. And we have to hold ourselves to that. How we treat people, the respect we show for people, the grace we give to people. Again, it's something where we have to establish a clear standard and says, my standard for dealing with this kind of people in this kind of situation is this, and I am not going to violate it.

你会发现有时疲惫或烦躁可能导致失误，但这不能重置标准。你要做的是承认：'我的标准是这样，我这次没做到，这是个错误，我会尽量避免再犯'。

Now you will find you get tired or irritable and you might, but that can't reset the standard. What you've got to do is you say, my standard is this. I didn't do that. I'm gonna, that's a mistake. I will try not to do that again.

我们需要建立一系列准则，就像乔治·华盛顿年轻时著名的那套文明守则。有些非常基础，但对他而言就是提醒——哪些事该做或不该做。我们同样需要这样的自我准则。绝对如此。

But we have a series of things that become almost like the rules of civility that George Washington made so famous when he wrote them down when he was a young man. And some of them were very basic, but they were just reminders to him. There are certain things you do and don't do. We need the same for ourselves. Absolutely.

你强调了你在节目中提到的‘言行差距’问题，即必须对某事做出承诺后，还要实际展示和证明它。现在我们将短暂休息，插播一条赞助商信息。他们的支持使我们能够为您呈现这档节目。《Think Fast Talk Smart》由BetterHelp赞助播出。10月10日是世界精神卫生日。

And you highlight something that you talk about this say do gap, how you have to commit to something and then you actually have to show it and demonstrate it. Now we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors. Their support helps us bring you our show. Think Fast Talk Smart is brought to you by BetterHelp. October 10 is World Mental Health Day.

秋季可能是一年中压力较大的时期。我知道自己常感到匆忙且心绪不宁。获得一些指导和建议确实很有帮助。我相信我们都能从心理治疗中受益。这正是BetterHelp的用武之地。

Fall can be a stressful time of year. I know that I often feel rushed and out of sorts. Getting some guidance and advice can really help. I believe we all can benefit from therapy. That's where BetterHelp comes in.

BetterHelp帮助您找到符合需求的心理治疗师。您只需填写一份关于需求和偏好的简短问卷，BetterHelp便会运用其十二年以上行业领先的匹配经验为您寻找治疗师。若对匹配结果不满意，可随时根据他们的定制推荐更换治疗师。值此世界精神卫生日，BetterHelp正表彰那些帮助数百万人迈出第一步的治疗师们。

BetterHelp helps you find a therapist to meet your needs. You complete a short questionnaire about your needs and preferences, and then BetterHelp uses their twelve plus years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment to find you a therapist. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. This World Mental Health Day. BetterHelp is celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward.

如果您已准备好寻找合适的治疗师，BetterHelp可助您开启这段旅程。我们的听众首月可享九折优惠，访问betterhelp.com/thinkfast即可获取。网址是betterhelp（HELP）.com斜杠thinkfast。嗨，我是Matt。您想探索万物不为人知的一面吗？

If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/thinkfast. That's betterhelp, H E L P dot com slash thinkfast. Hi, Matt here. Do you want to discover the hidden side of everything?

那我建议您收听我最喜爱的播客之一——《魔鬼经济学电台》，由畅销书合著者斯蒂芬·J·杜布纳主持。该节目探索那些您自以为了解实则不然的事物，以及那些从未想过要了解却值得知晓的话题。每周《魔鬼经济学电台》都会探讨诸如‘为何香蕉是世界上最有趣的水果’、‘为何最优秀的员工可能成为最糟糕的上司’、‘为何我们会对航空旅行这一奇迹感到恐惧’等宏大主题。您可在任意播客平台收听《魔鬼经济学电台》。

Then I'd suggest listening to one of my favorite podcasts, Freakonomics Radio, hosted by the co author of the bestselling books, Stephen J. Dubner. Freakonomics Radio is exploring all the things you thought you knew, but didn't, and all the things you never thought you wanted to know, but do. Each week Freakonomics Radio tackles big topics like why the banana is the most interesting fruit in the world, why the best employees can make the worst bosses, and why we dread the miracle of air travel. Listen to Freakonomics Radio wherever you get your podcasts.

结束前，我想问大家三个问题。一个是我专门为您设计的，另外两个是我们做这档节目以来就一直询问的。您准备好了吗？当然。好的。

Before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions. One I create just for you, and the other two I've been asking people for as long as we've been doing this show. Are you up for that? Sure. All right.

我曾与美国军方及情报机构有过不少合作，他们以高度结构化的简报式沟通著称。对于我们这些军界外人士，您认为从中学到的一两项宝贵沟通技巧是什么，它们如何帮助您在所从事的领域取得成功？

I've done a fair amount of work with the US military and intelligence agencies, and they're known for very structured communication with briefings. For those of us who are outside the military, what are one or two valuable communication skills that you learned that help you be successful in the things that you did?

首先是表达要非常清晰。我们称之为'底线先行'，直截了当地说出你想传达的内容。不要用一堆其他数据来混淆它。直接说明X就是X。这就是我的观点。

The first is to be very clear. You know, we call it bottom line upfront, say what you're trying to communicate. Don't obfuscate it in a bunch of other data. Just say X is X. And that's what I think.

其次要明白存在对特定结果的层级压力。有时候人们做简报是因为他们想得到某个特定答案，而你必须明白那不是你的职责所在。

The second is understand that there is a hierarchical pressure for a certain outcome. Sometimes people have a briefing because they want to get a certain answer and you've got to understand that that's not your role.

所以管理甚至抵制这些从众压力非常重要。再次强调清晰性，确保你说的内容直截了当，而不是埋没在细节中。

So managing and maybe even pushing back against those conformity pressures is really important. And again, clarity and make sure that what you're saying is upfront, not buried in the details.

没错。

That's right.

第二个问题，我很好奇你的答案。你欣赏哪位沟通者？为什么？

Question number two, and I'll be very curious to hear your answer. Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

有很多高效的沟通者。如果回溯到富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福或亚伯拉罕·林肯这样的历史人物，他们在与美国民众沟通时有着非常稳健的节奏，总是将沟通内容与价值观和总体目标联系起来。比如罗斯福在首个任期之初，正值大萧条最严峻时期，他试图传递希望，传递行动，传递...

There are a number of very effective communicators. If you go back to someone like Franklin Delano Roosevelt or Abraham Lincoln, they had a very measured cadence in communicating with the American people, and they always tied it to values and general goals. And so like Franklin Roosevelt at the beginning of his first term, you know, depths of the depression, he's trying to communicate hope. He's trying to communicate action. He's trying to communicate.

我们同舟共济的精神。当我阅读和聆听那些历史录音时，能真切感受到他清楚知道自己要通过沟通达成什么目标。他并非仅为沟通之乐而沟通。因此我钦佩这种具有纪律性的沟通者。

We are all in this together. And so I find when I read and listen to the old recordings of that, a real sense of, he knew what he was trying to accomplish with communication. He wasn't just communicating for the joy of it. And so I admire people with that kind of discipline.

所以关键在于自律、专注，并将其与更宏大的价值观相连——这对一位深入研究并长期思考品格的人来说并不意外。最后一个问题：成功沟通的三大要素是什么？我几乎可以肯定清晰度会是其中之一。

So it's the discipline, the focus, and attaching it to bigger values and not surprising for somebody who has studied and thought a lot about character. Our final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? I can almost be sure that clarity is going to be part of that.

没错。沟通必须及时且真诚，因为无论我们是否相信自己传达的内容重要，我们可能会误以为能在众人面前伪装，让他们买账，但时间会揭露真相。所以如果你自己都不信，站在台上宣讲就会有问题。

Yeah. It's gotta be timely and it's gotta be genuine because at some point, whether or not we believe what we're communicating matters, we may get out and think we can disassemble in front of a bunch of people and they'll buy it, but over time it comes back. So if you don't believe it, it is problematic to stand up there and say it.

清晰度、时效性、真诚与真实性，这些至关重要。非常感谢麦克里斯特尔将军抽出时间分享洞见，以及您在品格培养领域所做的杰出工作。显然，这在当今时代极为重要。我受益匪浅。

Clarity, timeliness, and genuine and authenticity, really important. Well, thank you, General McChrystal, for your time and for your insight and for the good work you are doing around character and character building. Clearly, in our time, that's very important. I appreciate the learnings and the lessons.

承蒙邀请，马特。谢谢。

You're kind to have me, Matt. Thank you.

感谢收听《思维敏捷，言谈智慧》播客新一期节目。想了解更多高压下的领导力策略，请收听第155期苏珊·赖斯访谈或第161期珍·萨基访谈。本期由凯瑟琳·里德、瑞安·坎波斯和我——马特·亚伯拉罕斯共同制作，音乐来自Floyd Wonder，特别鸣谢Podium播客公司。欢迎在YouTube及各大播客平台订阅我们。

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To learn more about high stakes leadership under pressure, listen to episode one fifty five with Susan Rice or episode one sixty one with Jen Psaki. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

请务必订阅并评分。同时关注我们的领英、Instagram和TikTok账号，访问fastersmarter.i0观看深度视频、英语学习内容并订阅通讯。高级会员可享受加长版DeepThinks特辑、《马特问答》等专属内容，详情请见fastersmarter.iopremium。过去几个月我有幸与全球听众交流本播客对他们的影响，得知大家如何运用节目中探讨的原则并因此改变生活，这令我无比欣喜。

Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also, follow us on LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok, and check out fastersmarter.i0 for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider our premium offering for extended DeepThinks episodes, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.iopremium. I wanted to share with you that over the past few months, I've had the amazing opportunity of talking to listeners across the globe about the impact the podcast has had on them. I love learning how people are applying the principles and concepts that we cover on the podcast and the impact that it has had on their lives.

这些故事真正鼓舞人心。我代表全体制作团队感谢您的支持，期待为您带来新节目、新技巧和更深度的知识。我们需要您的支持——这档节目的制作需要投入大量时间与精力。

It is truly inspiring. Speaking on behalf of all of us that bring you the show, we thank you for your support. We look forward to bringing you new episodes, new techniques, and deeper knowledge. And we ask for your support. It takes time and effort to put this show on the air.

请继续分享你的想法。如果可以的话，我们非常欢迎你加入我们的高级会员。谢谢，让我们期待下一个200期节目。

Please keep your ideas coming. And if you can, we'd love for you to join our premium. Thank you, and here's to another 200 episodes.