240. 信不信由你：如何改写那些阻碍你的叙事

嗨，我是Matt。

Hi, Matt here.

非常高兴地告诉大家，我们十一月的通讯已经发布了。

I'm super excited to let you know that our November newsletter is out.

在通讯中，你将学到如何成功主持问答环节，无论是用于面试、演讲后还是会议期间。

In it, you'll learn about how to run very successful question and answer sessions, be it for interviews or after a presentation or during meetings.

此外，你还能抢先一睹我们全新的'快速思考 智慧表达'学习社区。

Plus, you'll get a first glimpse into our new Think Fast Talk Smart learning community.

在LinkedIn或fastersmarter.io网站的'资源与通讯'板块查看详情。

Check it out on LinkedIn or at fastersmarter.i0 under resources and newsletter.

现在插播一条赞助商信息。

Now a word from one of our sponsors.

他们的支持使我们能免费为您提供优质内容。

Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge.

你好。

Hi.

我是Matt。

Matt here.

最近我进行了一些国际旅行，每当看到人们能说所访国家的语言时，我总是感到惊叹。

I recently have done some international travel, and I'm always amazed when people can speak the language of the country they're visiting.

所以为即将到来的旅程，我会使用Babbel——这个基于科学语言学习方法的首选应用。

So for my upcoming trip, I'll be using Babbel, my go to app for science backed language learning.

Babbel让我能循序渐进地练习真实对话，毫无压力。

Babbel lets me practice real life conversation step by step without the stress.

它帮助我在关键时刻建立自信开口说话，无论是点咖啡还是与新朋友聊天。

It helps me build the confidence to speak up when it matters, from ordering a coffee or chatting with new friends.

无论你最适合哪种学习方式——听、说、读或写，Babbel都能适应你的风格，并通过个性化学习计划、实时反馈和进度跟踪保持你的学习动力。

However you learn best, by listening, speaking, reading, or writing, Babbel adapts to your style and keeps you motivated with personalized learning plans, real time feedback, and progress tracking.

现在，Babbel正在babbel.com/tfts提供订阅服务最高55%的优惠。

Right now, Babbel is offering up to 55% off your subscription at babbel.com/tfts.

这就是Babbel，访问babbel.com/tfts可享受最高55%折扣。

That's Babbel, babbel,.com/tfts to get up to 55% off.

可能有相关规则和限制适用。

Rules and restrictions may apply.

对我们许多人来说，成功被阻碍了，被我们的信念和方式所阻碍。

For many of us, our success is blocked, blocked by our beliefs and approaches.

如果我们消除这些障碍，就能产生更大影响并创造持久价值。

If we remove these barriers, we can have more impact and add lasting value.

我是马特·亚伯拉罕斯，在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略沟通课程。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，智慧表达》播客节目。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天，我非常激动能再次与穆里尔·威尔金斯进行对话。

Today, I'm really excited to have another conversation with Muriel Wilkins.

穆里尔是一位高管教练、作家兼播客主持人。

Muriel is an executive coach, author, and podcast host.

她主持哈佛商业评论播客《教练真实领导者》，并出版了新书《领导力破局：突破限制你潜能的信念》。

She hosts the HBR podcast, Coaching Real Leaders, and she has a new book out, Leadership Unblocked, Breakthrough, the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential.

欢迎回来，穆里尔。

Welcome back, Muriel.

我非常喜欢我们在第102期节目中的对话，期待再次向你学习。

I really enjoyed our previous conversation in episode one zero two, and I look forward to learning from you again.

我也是，马特。

Likewise, Matt.

谢谢再次邀请我。

Thank you for having me back.

太好了。

Excellent.

我们可以开始了吗？

Shall we get started?

当然。

Absolutely.

我们开始吧。

Let's do it.

好的。

Okay.

你的很多工作都集中在帮助领导者提高效率上。

A lot of your work focuses on helping leaders be more effective.

根据你的经验，阻碍领导者发展的最常见信念有哪些？

In your experience, what are the most common beliefs that hold leaders back?

确实有不少，我花时间研究过这些，但要知道，我想先说明一点，我认为信念对每个人来说都是非常独特的。

Yeah, there are quite a few, I've spent some time looking at them, but you know, let me caveat that by saying, I think beliefs are very unique to the individual.

虽然我已经识别出一些常见的障碍，但关键是要找出哪些可能正在阻碍你自己。

So while I have identified some common ones, the work is to identify which ones might be getting in your own way.

作为开场，我先列举任何领导者都可能面临的几种常见障碍——根据我的教练经验，其中有七种最为普遍。

But to get us started, and that might be a little bit of an appetizer to tease out some of the ones that might exist for any leader, there are seven that are most common amongst the leaders that I've coached.

第一个是'我必须参与其中'。

And so the first is I need to be involved.

第二个是'我需要立即完成'。

The second is I need it done now.

第三个是'我知道我是对的'。

The third is I know I'm right.

第四个是'我不能犯错'。

The fourth is I can't make a mistake.

第五个是'我能做到，你也应该能做到'。

The fifth is if I can do it, so can you.

第六个是'我不能拒绝'。

The sixth is I can't say no.

最后一个是'我不属于这里'。

And the last one is I don't belong here.

我发现十有八九，当你感到沮丧或遇到领导障碍时，往往源于这些潜意识的信念——它们可能曾在你人生的某个阶段帮助过你，但在当前情境中却适得其反。

And what I have found is that nine times out of 10, if there is frustration that you're feeling, or something is getting in the way of you being able to lead effectively, many times they might end up being one of these beliefs that are completely in your subconscious or another that has helped you in some form at some point in your life, but may not be helping you in the situation that you're in.

我认为梳理这些障碍和信念并识别它们很有价值，这样我们才能集中精力去解决。

I always think it's useful to think through some of these barriers and beliefs and identify them so that we can then become focused on trying to fix them.

看着你列出的清单，我不禁感叹：天啊，我自己就有好几条这样的问题。

And looking at your list, I'm like, oh boy, I've got a few of these going on.

是啊。

Yeah.

马特，我告诉你，当我写这本书并逐一审视这些信念时，我几乎确信自己只符合其中两条。

Matt, I'll tell you, as I wrote this book and I worked through each of the beliefs, I was pretty sure I only had, like, maybe two of them.

每次完成一个章节时，我都会惊呼：天啊。

And every time I would finish a chapter, I'd be like, oh my god.

见鬼。

Damn it.

这条我也中枪了。

I have this one too.

对我而言最感同身受的是‘无法拒绝别人’。

The one that rings really true for me is the can't say no.

其实我们上次节目就聊过这个，你给过些好建议后我有所改善，但这个问题依然存在。

And in fact, when we were last on the show, we talked about that and you gave me some good advice and I've dialed that one down a bit, but it's still there.

我确实经常害怕犯错。

And I do have a lot of being afraid of making mistakes.

鉴于我的工作性质，总感觉必须对所有事情都给出完美答案，压力很大。

And there's a lot of pressure given what I do to feel like I have to have a good right answer for things.

这可能是因为我们与这些特质过度认同了。

It can be because we associate, we identify with them so much.

或许这些特质正是你成功的关键。

Maybe it's been what's been the key to your success.

所以我认为部分关键在于：你是否花时间重新定义过现阶段对你而言的成功模样？

And so I think a part of it is to what extent have you taken some time to potentially redefine what success might look like for you now?

那么按照对成功的新定义，这个驱动性原则是否依然对你有用？

And does that belief that driving principle still serve you in terms of the new definition of success?

哇。

Wow.

对我个人来说已经提供了非常有用的信息。

Already providing really useful information for me personally.

而且我认为所有听众都会发现，这些信念很多都与我们如何构想成功有关。

And I think everybody listening in that a lot of these beliefs are tied to how we envision success.

如果你改变对成功样貌的构想，可能会带来巨大改变。

If you change that vision of what success looks like, that can make a big difference.

我很感谢这一点。

I appreciate that.

这自然引出了下一个问题。

Which leads me naturally to the next question.

你谈到突破隐藏信念的三个阶段。

You talk through three stages on how to get unblocked from your hidden beliefs.

能带我们过一遍吗？

Can you walk us through these?

我们生活在一个非常崇尚行动的文化中。

We live in a very action biased culture.

我自己作为一个一生中大部分时间都倾向于尽快采取行动的人。

I myself, as somebody who, for most of my life, have been very prone to take action as quickly as I can.

我发现虽然我们可以通过行动改变方法，但如果不花时间思考导致这些行动的原因，我们最终又会回到原点。

And what I found is that while we can move to action to change our approach, if we don't also take some time to think through what might be leading to that action, we'll come back right to where we started to begin with.

这个三步流程旨在减少我们反复回到起点的次数。

So the three step process is to try to mitigate us having to return to that starting point over and over again.

第一步是揭示。

The first step is to uncover.

第二步是剖析。

The second step is to unpack.

第三步是疏通。

And the third step is to unblock.

让我逐一深入讲解。

Let me take a little bit of a deep dive on each one of those.

关于揭示，首要的是理解你的目标与实际成果之间可能存在的不协调，对吧？

So with uncover, it's number one, understanding that there might be dissonance between the way that what you want to achieve and what you're actually achieving, right?

以你为例，当'无法拒绝'的信念驱使你时，可能你发现自己的待办清单上实际有50项任务，而理想状态只有5项。

So in your case, maybe when the, I can't say no belief was driving you, maybe you were finding that, Hey, I'd really only like to have five things on my to do list, but here I have 50 instead.

这暗示着某些地方出了问题，感觉不太对劲。

So there's something that's queuing you up that something is off, something doesn't feel right.

接着你可以自问：是什么信念导致了我当前的处境、行为或眼前显现的结果？

And you can then ask yourself, what is the belief that is driving this potential situation that I'm in, or the behavior that I'm having, or what I'm seeing manifest itself in front of me?

这样你就能揭示出背后的信念。

So you uncover the belief.

那么什么是信念呢？

And what is a belief?

信念就是你对自己讲述的故事。

A belief is a story that you tell yourself.

这不是好与坏的问题。

It's not a bad or a good.

这不是对与错的问题。

It's not a wrong or a right.

它只是存在。

It just is.

正是这一运作原则在驱动着你的行为或你做出的决定。

It is the operating principle that is driving your behavior or the decisions that you make.

一旦你能发现这一点，就可以开始解构。

Once you can uncover that, then you can go to unpack.

解构的过程是让你熟悉自己最初为何会形成这种思维模式。

And the unpack is to familiarize yourself with why you have that mindset to begin with.

迄今为止它是如何影响你的？

In what way has it served you up until now?

就像我们刚才讨论的，它是如何让你获得成功的？

As we just talked about, in what ways has it made you successful?

那么现在它还能让你成功吗？

Then is it making you successful now?

它是否能推动你达成想要的结果？

Is it driving to the outcomes that you wanna drive to?

如果不能，你就可以进入第三阶段——突破障碍，这也是大多数人想立即跳到的阶段。

And if it's not, then you can allow yourself to move into the third stage, which is unblock, which is what most people wanna run to right away.

在突破阶段，你需要重构信念，对吧？

And in unblock, you reframe the belief, right?

你用语言重构与自我的对话，将其转化为一条讯息、一句箴言、一个能在当下为你所用的叙事。

So you reframe in your language, the communication that you're having with yourself, and you reframe it to a message, to a mantra, to a narrative that actually is going to serve you in this moment.

你如何知道它在为你服务？

And how do you know it's serving you?

它更符合你想达成的目标，并增加你实现这些目标的可能性。

It's more aligned with the outcomes that you want to achieve and increases the probability that you will get to those outcomes.

完成这一步后，你可以自问：既然这是我现在的信念，我能采取什么行动？

Once you've done that, you can then ask yourself, okay, so if that is what I believe now, what actions can I take?

这为我开启了什么可能性？

What does it open up for me?

我能做些什么，既能帮助达成目标，又能强化这个信念？

What can I do that not only helps me get to those outcomes that I desire, but also reinforces that belief?

这样你就铺设了一条道路，使你的领导、行为或沟通方式比直接行动更具可持续性。

And then you have set the path to actually leading or behaving or communicating in a way that's more sustainable than if you just move to action right away.

是的。

Yeah.

我和许多共事者都有这种倾向——总想直接跳到'破除障碍'阶段。

The tendency I have and many people I work with is, Hey, let's get to that unblock stage.

但我很感谢你详细解析了'发现'、'剖析'和'破除'这三个阶段。

But I really appreciate you breaking down the uncover, the unpack, and the unblock.

归根结底在于我们讲述的故事、那些信念，然后质疑并改写这个叙事。

And it boils down to the stories we tell ourselves, those beliefs, and then questioning that and then changing that narrative.

这引导我们采取新行动，帮助我们缓解、改变、进化并从中成长。

That leads us to the new action that can help us mitigate, change, evolve, grow from those problems.

非常感谢你。

I really appreciate that.

我最近花时间思考并做了一个价值观练习，试图帮助我真正理解成功对我意味着什么。

I just recently spent some time thinking through I did a values exercise to try to help me really understand what success looks like for me.

这让我觉得，自己在解决问题方面变得更好了。

And from that, that led me to, I think, be better at unblocking.

我正在把这个过程融入你的步骤中，我能看到这些价值观。

And I'm putting this process, put myself through into your steps, and I can see the values.

你知道，即使是价值观，有时我们也需要重新审视它们，对吧？

You know, even with values, we sometimes have to kick the can on them, right?

这些价值观是从哪里来的？

Where did those values come from?

它们真的是你的价值观，还是你为了在原生部落或早期社群中获得价值感、认同感和安全感而习得的？又或者是在职业生涯早期形成的、但与你现在所处职位或领导角色所需的价值观并不完全一致的那些？

Are they truly your values or are they the learned values that you adopted as a way of making you feel worthy, accepted, and safe in your original tribe or the original community that you're a part of, or early on in your career that may not be necessarily the values that you need now in the position that you're in, or in the type of leadership role that you're in that are gonna help you get to, again, the success that you want.

这有点诡异，Mural，因为你刚才说的正是我经历的过程。

It's a little spooky, Mural, because what you just said is exactly the process I went through.

问题在于这些价值观源自何处？

It was where are the values coming from?

对我来说很多都来自职业生涯早期。

And a lot of it for me was my early career.

我曾有一些导师和非常钦佩的人，他们向我灌输了一些这样的价值观。

I had some mentors and some people I really admired, and they inculcated in me some of these values.

但现在处于职业生涯完全不同的阶段，那些价值观已经不同且需要进化了。

Yet now being in a very different stage in my career, those values are different and needed to evolve.

区分健康的生产力和有毒的生产力。

Distinguish between both healthy and toxic productivity.

这两者有何区别？我们该如何专注于健康的部分？

What is the difference and how can we focus on the healthy stuff?

因为我从未考虑过有毒生产力这个概念，但我觉得自己可能正深陷其中。

Because I had never thought of toxic productivity, but I think I might be waiting in that.

你知道吗，这很有趣，因为我们常把生产力单纯理解为完成任务。

You know, it's so interesting because sometimes we just talk about productivity, which is about getting things done.

但实际上生产力分为健康型和有毒型两种。

And there's healthy productivity and toxic productivity.

有毒生产力是指不惜一切代价完成任务。

Toxic productivity is getting things done at any cost.

这种观念会蔓延到任何需要完成的事务上。

And it is universally applied across anything that has the notion of needing to be completed.

顺便说一句，有毒生产力本质上源于'我现在就要完成'的心态。

And by the way, the toxic productivity is really driven by a mindset of, I need it done now.

对所有事都抱有紧迫感，觉得每件事都必须立刻完成。

There's a sense of urgency in everything, and everything needs to be done.

而健康生产力更关注做重要的事。

While healthy productivity is more about doing things and focusing on things that matter.

因此你首先需要明确什么才是真正重要的，对吧？

So beyond that, you have to understand then what is it that matters, right?

这涉及到优先级的划分问题。

There's a certain level of prioritization that needs to happen.

推动健康生产力的信念更接近于：在我拥有的时间里尽力而为。

And the belief that will drive the healthy productivity is more around something like, I'll do the best that I can with the time that I have.

我喜爱这种理念的原因在于它承认了我们存在限制，无论我们是否喜欢。

So what I love about that is that it takes into account that we have constraints, whether we like it or not.

我们存在边界。

We have guardrails.

这些边界就是我能做到的最好程度——即在我个人、团队或组织能力范围内，以及在我拥有的时间限制内。

And the guardrails are what is the best that I can do, meaning what is within my capabilities or my team's capabilities or the organization's capabilities, and what is the time limit that I have?

然后是在这个时间框架内可实现的目标。

And then what's doable within that timeframe.

无论是毒性生产力还是健康生产力都存在代价，我们能看到它们在组织内部产生的影响，也包括对我们自身的影响。

And there is a cost to both toxic and an opportunity with healthy that we can see happen within organizations, but also on ourselves.

大多数人其实并不区分这两者。

So most people don't really discern between the two.

他们只考虑提高生产力，而不是转变思维模式以获得不同类型的高效。

They just think about being productive rather than shifting their mindset so that they can have one type of productivity versus the other.

我确实需要区分这点，因为我一直抱有‘完成就行’的心态。

I really do need to distinguish that because I have that mentality of just get it done.

受影响最严重的是我的睡眠。

And the biggest thing that suffers is my sleep.

我有了一个新的信条。

And I have a new mantra.

我要在我拥有的时间里尽力而为。

I'm going to do the best that I can with the time that I have.

你提出的这个区分让我想起了紧急与重要之间的区别。

And the distinction that you make really reminds me of that distinction between what's urgent and what's important.

如果你生活在那种紧急状态中，那就是你所说的毒性——虽然你能完成待办事项清单，但却让自己处于不利地位。

And if you live in that world of urgency, that's that toxicity you're talking about where while you might get things checked off your checklist, you put yourself at a disadvantage.

我很感谢你给我的这个新座右铭。

And I do appreciate you giving me that new mantra.

这个公式还有另一面：如果你认为每件事都重要，那么实际上并非每件事都重要。

There's also the other side of that formula, which is if you regard everything as important, not everything is important.

这又回到了你的价值观和信念，这些才是真正重要的。

And then again, back to your values and your beliefs, which really are important.

上次我们谈话时，讨论过心态的重要性。

You know, last time we talked, we discussed the importance of mindset.

我知道自从上次谈话后，你花了更多时间思考和研究心态对幸福与成功的影响。

I know you've spent even more time since we last talked thinking about and studying the impact of mindset on well-being and success.

能分享一下你对心态的新见解吗？

Can you share the new thoughts that you have about mindset?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

这些见解并非我原创。

And these thoughts aren't mine.

我对心态产生更多好奇是因为发现——不仅在我个人生活经历和领导经验中，也在客户案例中——他们虽然采取了行动，但这些行动难以持续。

I just became more curious about mindset because I found that not only with myself and my own life experience and leadership experience, but also with my clients, that they were moving to action, but the actions weren't sustainable.

这让我开始好奇：为什么会这样？

And so it got me curious around why is that?

我是逆向工程的忠实粉丝。

I'm a big fan of reverse engineering.

当我进行逆向工程时，我就想，好吧，让我们从头开始。

And when I reverse engineered, I'm like, well, let's start at the beginning.

而最初的故事，就是我们对自己所做的事情讲述的故事。

And the story in the, the beginning is the story we tell ourselves about what we do.

你知道，最让我着迷的一项研究是塔莉亚·克鲁姆的研究，她是一位社会科学家。

You know, one of the studies that really fascinated me was a study by Thalia Crum, and she's a social scientist.

于是她针对酒店服务员做了那项研究，询问那些服务员：你认为你的工作是锻炼吗？

And so she did that study with the hotel attendants where they asked those hotel attendants, do you think that the work that you do is exercise?

他们回答：不是。

And they were like, no.

于是研究人员说：那么如果你继续工作，唯一需要改变的就是你对工作的看法呢？

And so they said, well, what if you did your work and all you had to do was change the way you think about your work?

你要把它当作锻炼。

You think about it as exercise.

四周后，仅仅因为这个小小的观念转变，他们就发现这些人的健康状况和体能有了显著改善。

Four weeks later, with that small shift, they saw significant enough improvement in the health and fitness of these individuals just by the mindset change.

她的结论让我着迷：重要的不仅是我们做什么，而是我们对所做的事情的看法——这种认知彻底改变了我。

And that fascinated me in her conclusion, which is that it's not just about what we do, but it's about what we think about what we do that makes all the difference literally was a game changer for me.

我开始在指导客户时采用这种方法，深入探索'你如何看待与同事的对话？'

And I started taking that approach with my coaching clients in terms of really exploring how are you thinking, or what is it that you're thinking about the conversation you're having with your colleague?

你对即将要做的演讲有什么看法？

What is it that you're thinking about that presentation that you're about to go make?

你在想什么关于那份报告或需要整理的演示文稿？

What is it that you're thinking about that report or that deck that you have to put together?

通过转变你对事物的思考方式，不仅直接影响事物本身，更重要的是，马特，它会改变你做这件事的体验，对吧？

And by shifting the way that you think about the thing, not only may have a direct outcome on the thing itself, but even more importantly, Matt, it changes your experience of doing the thing, right?

所以在我的世界里，我真的只希望领导者能更轻松地领导，对吧？

And so in my world, I really just want leaders to be able to lead with a little more ease, right?

事情不必像我们搞得那么困难。

Doesn't have to be as difficult as we make it.

挑战本身已经足够艰巨了。

The challenges are challenging enough.

但如果我们能以更轻松的方式应对和回应这些挑战，天啊，那将打开多少机会之门。

But if we can approach them and respond to them with a little more ease, boy, would that open up opportunities.

我认为心态——你对待工作的方式或对工作的看法——正是开启更轻松领导可能性的关键。

And I think the mindset, the way that you do the work or what you think about the work is what can open up that possibility of leading with more ease.

我热爱阿利亚的工作，和你一样，我从中看到了巨大的力量。

I love Aliyah's work, and like you, I see a tremendous amount of power in it.

关键在于我们如何构建和重构它。

It's how we frame and reframe it.

我来举个生活中的例子。

I'll give an example from my life.

对我来说，工作中最困难的部分是作为教师必须完成的评分环节。

One of the things that had been difficult for me was the grading part of the job I do as a teacher.

我必须给学生打分，而我总认为这不是那种能让我早上兴奋起床去做的事情。

I have to give grades, and I always saw that as it was not something that I would get up in the morning excited to do.

当我将评分重新定义为教学的另一种形式——这是我所热衷的——这就像一场革命性的改变。

When I reframed grading as actually another form of teaching, which I am very passionate about, it was like a game changer.

重构思维确实能改变你与人互动的方式。

Reframing can really change the way in which you interact.

我想为大家强调另一个要点。

I want to highlight something else for everybody.

你通过逆向工程获得了关于心态和思维重构的独特见解。

The way you got to where you did on your perspective on mindset and reframing is by reverse engineering.

我认为这是个非常强大的工具。

I think that is such a powerful tool.

我知道你经常用它来理解自己生活中的事情，以及你指导对象的生活。

I know you use it a lot to understand things in your own life and the lives of those that you coach.

你能详细说说你是如何思考逆向工程的吗？

Can you walk us through how you think about reverse engineering?

因为对很多人来说，这不是件凭直觉就能做到的事。

Because for many people, that's not an intuitive thing to do.

我的思维倾向是非常结果导向的，对吧？

My tendency is to be very results oriented, right?

非常注重成果。

Very outcomes driven.

我自我修炼的很大一部分就是不要太执着于结果。

A lot of the work on myself is to not be so attached to the outcome.

但当我审视结果时，无论是已发生的结果还是我期望的结果，我都能审视并说：好的，这就是我想要的。

But when I look at the outcome, either the outcome that has occurred or the outcome that I want, or that I desire, I can then look and say, okay, this is what I desire.

这就是我想要实现的目标。

This is what I want to achieve.

让我倒推一下，对吧？

Let me work backwards, right?

我需要做什么才能——这就是行动。

What would I need to do to be able- So that's the action.

我需要做什么才能实现那个结果？

What would I need to do to be able to achieve that outcome?

如果这是行动，我需要对此产生怎样的感受，才能增加我真正付诸行动或我们实现它的可能性？

If that's the action, how would I need to feel about that action in order for it to increase the probability that I would actually do it or that we could make it happen?

然后从感受出发，我可以倒推并思考：我需要想些什么？

And then from the feeling, I can work backwards and say, What would I need to think?

我需要相信什么，才能增加我既能感受又能完成那些行动的可能性？

What would I need to believe in order to increase the probability that I could feel and also fulfill those actions?

然后——这就是逆向工程的精髓所在。

And then- and that's where the reverse engineering is.

这些想法或我需要相信的内容，它们与我当前的信念体系一致吗？

Are those thoughts or what I need to believe, are they aligned with the way that I believed right now?

如果一致，那很好。

If it's yes, great.

如果不一致，那么这就是重构信念的机会。

If it's not, then here's an opportunity to reframe the belief.

不是抛弃已有的信念，只是暂时把它放在一边，直到它再次派上用场。

Not lose the one that I've had, just put it to the side momentarily until it's useful again.

但要实现特定目标，我的思想、感受和行动之间必须保持一致。

But there needs to be alignment between how I think, how I feel, and how I act in order to achieve a particular outcome.

从目标出发逆向思考：这种一致性对我来说意味着什么？

Start with the outcome and then work it backwards to say, okay, what would that alignment look for me?

当我们感到沮丧、不协调或卡住时，通常是因为在某个环节出现了不一致。

When we feel frustration or we feel dissonance or we feel stuck, it's often because there's somewhere along the line, there's some misalignment.

感谢你带我们梳理这个逆向映射过程。

Thank you for walking us through that backward mapping.

我经常强调人们在沟通中要有明确目标。

I spend a lot of my time talking about how people should have a clear goal in their communication.

我使用'认知-感受-行动'框架，而你用截然不同的方式应用这个框架，帮助我们通过内在沟通调整信念，使之与目标相符。

And I use this structure of no feel do, and you've just applied no feel do in a very different way to help us with our internal communication, to align ourselves to the beliefs we have and the beliefs we should have to achieve our goals.

我非常欣赏这个逆向映射方法。

I really appreciate that backward mapping process.

你真是位专业教练。

You are an expert coach.

这次对话让我受益匪浅。

I certainly have benefited from this conversation.

但上次你指导我解决设定界限的难题时，就展现出了极大帮助。

But last time you were kind enough to coach me through a challenge I was having around setting boundaries.

你的建议极具价值，从根本上改变了我处理某些事情的方式。

Your advice was incredibly helpful and foundationally changed how I do some things.

想听这个建议的听众可以回听第102期节目。

And anybody wanting to hear that advice can go back to episode 102 to hear.

你愿意就我遇到的另一个问题给我一些指导吗？

Would you be willing to coach me on another issue I'm having?

当然，只要你愿意，我随时奉陪。

Of course, if you're willing, I'm down.

我面临的一个困扰是，我对工作过于情感投入，结果常常感到精疲力竭。

One of the things that I struggle with is I get very emotionally invested in my work, and as a result, often find myself exhausted and run down.

有什么建议吗？

Any advice?

我不想失去我的热情。

I don't wanna lose my passion.

我认为这是我做事时的优势之一，但也不想再牺牲更多睡眠和精力了。

I think that's one of the strengths I bring to the things I do, but I also don't wanna lose more sleep and energy.

让我问问你，当你说情感投入时，具体是什么情感？又投入了什么？

So let me just ask you, when you say emotionally invested, what's the emotion and what's the investment?

我怀有强烈的好奇心和助人热情。

I have a lot of curiosity and passion to help.

因此在许多情况下，我看到的是学习的机会、帮助他人学习的机会、以及助人的机会。

So in many of these situations, I see opportunities to learn, to help others learn, and to help.

驱动我的主要情感正是这种好奇心和助人愿望。

And so the biggest emotions that drive me are those curiosity and the desire to help.

而投入的往往是时间——不仅是用于交谈和工作的时间，更是精神上的持续思考。

And the investment is often time, not just time in conversation and work to accomplish that, but it's just mental time.

我是个习惯反复思考、不断反思的人。

I am somebody who ruminates, who reflects.

所以即便我不在工作时，当我试图放松、坐在电视机前或散步时，这些念头仍占据着我的脑海。

And so even when I'm not doing the work, when I'm trying to vegetate, sitting in front of the TV, or I'm going for a walk, it occupies my time in my head.

投入是巨大且持续的。

The investment is a lot and constant.

是啊。

Yeah.

那么对你来说，既要保持那份帮助他人的热情与渴望，又不让它像你感受到或描述的那样消耗你，这会是什么样子？

And so what would it look like for you to still be able to exercise that passion you have and the desire you have to help others and not let it consume you as much as you feel it does, or you stated it does?

其实我不知道这个问题的答案。

I actually don't know the answer to that question.

我确实有一些榜样，一些我非常钦佩、似乎能做到这一点的人。

I do have some role models, some people that I really admire who seem to be able to do it.

我注意到他们能做到的是——他们擅长划分界限。

So what I've noticed that they can do is they're able to compartmentalize.

他们能够说：'好，刚才已经花时间处理那件事了。'

They're able to say, okay, just spent time doing that.

给这件事画个句号，可能稍后再回来处理，现在我要转向其他事情。

Gonna put a bow on it, might come back to it later, and I'm gonna move on to something else.

我还注意到人们会做的是——他们有种转换状态的仪式。

The other thing I've noticed that people do is they have some kind of transitioning ritual.

可能是散个步。

It could be taking a walk.

可能是给朋友打个电话。

It could be calling a friend.

可能是查看邮件。

It could be checking email.

我注意到自己一直没能找到一个好的过渡仪式来帮助我从专注状态中抽离。

And I've noticed that I haven't been able to find a good transitioning ritual to get myself out of whatever I'm focused on.

你认为是什么阻碍了你进行任务区隔的能力？

What do you believe that you think gets in the way of you being able to compartmentalize?

当我回顾我们之前的谈话内容时，我认为存在一个潜在信念：对我热爱之事物的承诺就意味着全身心投入。

When I reflect on what we've talked about just previously, I think there is an underlying belief that commitment to something I'm passionate about is full on commitment.

某种程度上，如果我没有持续投入，就会让自己或相关人士失望。

And in some way I'm failing either myself or the other people involved if I'm not constantly working on it.

这是我们对话前半部分给我带来的关键启示。

And that was an unlock for me from our earlier part of this conversation.

或许我需要重新审视那个'失败等于没有110%投入'的信念。

And perhaps I need to revisit that belief that failure is nothing less than 110% investment.

是啊。

Yeah.

那么，我们试试看。

Well, let's try it.

现在你会如何重新定义这个信念，使之既能推动你追求热情，又能获得更多睡眠？

How would you redefine that belief now in a way that would allow you to both drive to your passion and get more sleep?

嗯。

Yeah.

所以，我认为首先要做的是询问他人的看法。

So I, I think the first thing I have to do is ask other people.

我意识到我一直在假设成功对我来说应该是什么样子。

I'm realizing I make the assumption of what success looks like for me.

也许在那个时刻或项目中我想要帮助的人，他们对成功的定义可能与我不同，没有那么高涨和强烈。

And perhaps those that I'm trying to serve in that moment or with that project or whatever it is might have a different version of success that is not as amped up and intense as the one that I have.

所以我认为为自己寻求外部视角可能会有所帮助。

And so I think getting external for myself might be helpful.

然后或许应该围绕投入设定一些界限，明确这是重要的，并与其他重要事项进行优先级排序。

And then perhaps setting some boundaries around investment, well, this is important, prioritize it relative to the other things that are important.

因此我的建议是，就像我们之前谈话中说的，回去重新定义成功。

So what my advice to you would be to go back and redefine, as we said earlier in the conversation, redefine success.

因为如果成功意味着我必须完成所有事情，而只有完成所有事情才能帮助他人，对吗？

Because if success means I can do all the things and I need to do all the things in order for other people to be helped, right?

因为它的根基在于助人。

Because it's grounded in helping.

明确这一点对你会有帮助。

Defining that would be helpful to you.

正如你所说，或许需要获取一些外部标准来衡量，因为对他人足够好的标准可能不符合你对自己的要求。

And as you said, maybe getting some outside measure of what that looks like, because what might be good enough for others might not be the way that you're defining good enough for you.

所以获取这个外部指标能真正帮助你重构对成功的定义——这本身就是一种信念——然后让它驱动你如何确定优先级、如何设定界限以及你刚才提到的所有其他事项。

And so getting that outside metric to really help reformulate your definition of success, which is a belief in and of itself, and then let that drive how you're prioritizing, how you're creating boundaries and all of the other things that you just said.

你真的很擅长你所做的事。

You are so good at what you do.

我认为从外部和内部重新校准我对成功的定义，在这种情况下会非常有帮助。

I think an external recalibration and an internal recalibration of what success is for me will really help in this circumstance.

我们马上回来继续我们的对话。

We'll be right back to finish our conversation.

但首先，我们要短暂休息一下，插播一条赞助商信息。

But first, we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

这些赞助支持了我们节目的制作成本，使我们能够免费为您呈现。

These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring it to you free of charge.

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

我努力磨练技能，不断提升自己作为沟通者和教师的能力。

I work hard to sharpen my skills and keep improving as a communicator and teacher.

这就是为什么我喜欢从大师课中学习。

That's why I love learning from master class.

我能直接向塑造行业的专家和领袖学习。

I get to learn directly from experts and leaders shaping their industries.

在为我的新书《即兴演讲》做研究时，我从演员兼播客主持人艾米·波勒的大师课《为不可预知做准备》中学到了很多。

As I was doing research for my latest book on spontaneous speaking, I learned a lot from actress and podcaster Amy Poehler's masterclass on preparing to be unprepared.

最低只需每月10美元（按年计费），您就能无限访问200多门课程，全部由世界顶尖的商业领袖、作家、厨师和创新者授课。

For as little as $10 a month billed annually, you get unlimited access to more than 200 classes, all taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, innovators.

每节课都简短实用，真正鼓舞人心。

Each lesson is short, practical, and genuinely motivating.

非常适合热爱学习但时间有限的人。

Perfect for anyone who loves learning, but doesn't have a lot of time.

此外，每个新会员都享有30天退款保证，绝无风险。

Plus, every new membership comes with a thirty day money back guarantee, so there's no risk.

大师课不是额外学分，而是你的优势。

Masterclass isn't extra credit, it's your edge.

所以何不看看今天能学到什么？

So why not see what you can learn today?

现在，《快速思考 聪明说话》的听众可在masterclass.com/thinkfast享受年度会员15%优惠。

Right now, Think Fast Talk Smart listeners get 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/thinkfast.

网址是masterclass.com/thinkfast。

That's masterclass.com/thinkfast.

向最优秀的人学习，成就最好的自己。

Learn from the best to become your best.

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

畅销书作家迈克尔·刘易斯的《大空头》讲述了2008年美国房地产市场从繁荣到崩盘的故事。

The Big Short by bestselling author Michael Lewis tells the story of the buildup and burst of The US housing market back in 2008.

十年前，这个故事被改编成奥斯卡获奖电影。

A decade ago, the story was made into an Academy Award winning movie.

现在，迈克尔·刘易斯首次亲自献声，将其改编为全新有声书。

Now, Michael Lewis is bringing it to life in a new audiobook narrated by the author himself for the first time.

《大空头》的故事——做空市场的意义，以及谁真正为失控的金融体系买单——其现实意义至今未减。

The Big Short story, what it means to bet against the market and who really pays for an unchecked financial system is as relevant today as it has ever been.

立即在pushkin.fm/audiobooks或各大有声书平台获取《大空头》。

Get The Big Short now at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or wherever audiobooks are sold.

你知道结束前我总爱问三个问题。

You know that before we end, I always like to ask three questions.

一个是我为你准备的，另外两个是我一直向人们询问的。

One I create for you and the other two I've been asking people forever.

你愿意接受吗？

Are you up for that?

当然。

Absolutely.

你曾提到，在撰写关于阻碍某些领导者的障碍时，你其实在自己身上也发现了一些。

So you had mentioned that when you were writing about the barriers that get in the way for some leaders, that you actually recognize some in yourself.

所以我很好奇，你是否愿意分享一下你面临的其中一个挑战是什么，以及你正在如何应对它？

So I'm curious if you're willing to disclose, what's one of the challenges that you have and how are you working on that?

我最终发现自己每条都中枪。

I ended up recognizing myself in all of them.

但最根深蒂固的一个——我已经学会与之共处，因为它既不会消失，我也不需要它消失——就是我总觉得自己必须参与其中。

But the one that probably has been the longest standing one and that I have learned to befriend because it's not going away, nor do I need it to go away, is that I need to be involved.

这背后潜藏着一个错误信念：如果我不参与，一切就会分崩离析。

And underlying that is this false belief that if I'm not involved, everything's gonna fall apart.

我明白这种想法的根源。

And I understand where it comes from.

正因理解其来源，我更能宽容待己，因为我意识到这个信念孕育形成的地方，已非我当下所处之境。

And by understanding where it comes from, I give myself a lot more grace because I also recognize that where that belief was cultivated and formed is not the place that I'm in right now.

所以我需要不断提醒自己：我活在此时此地，而非那个需要靠这种信念才能成功的旧环境。

And so the work for me is constantly reminding myself that I am in the here and now, and I'm not in the place where that belief was actually critical to my success.

因此我可以暂时放下它，或搁置一旁，改用其他方式来完成工作，在当下更高效地行事。

And therefore I can let it go for a little bit or put it to the side and use a different one to help me get my work done and be more effective in the here and now.

非常感谢你与我们分享这些。

I really appreciate you sharing that with us.

谢谢。

Thank you.

所以你之前曾有机会回答过这个问题。

So you had an opportunity to give an answer to this question before.

我想知道答案是否有变化，你钦佩的沟通者是谁？为什么？

I'm wondering if it has changed at all, but who is a communicator that you admire and why?

今天首先浮现在我脑海的是马特博士。

The one that's coming to mind for me today is Doctor.

加博尔·马特，他在心理健康和思维模式方面做了大量工作。

Gabor Mate, who does a lot of work around mental health and mindset.

我特别欣赏他的沟通方式：第一，他能够将看似复杂的概念用非常简单的语言分解，让任何人都能真正理解。

What I really appreciate about the way that he communicates is number one, he's able to take what feels like complex ideas and break them down in very simple terms for anyone to really understand.

第二，他是个了不起的讲故事的人。

Number two, he is an amazing storyteller.

通过讲述与概念相关的故事，这些内容变得既容易产生共鸣又令人难忘。

And by telling the story associated with the concepts, it allows it to be relatable and also memorable.

第三，他浑身散发着真诚，对吧？

And number three, he just exudes authenticity, right?

不知道你是否听过他的演讲，但你会真切地感觉他就坐在你面前，正在和你交谈。

Like he I don't know if you've ever heard him speak, but you literally feel like he's sitting right in front of you, just having a conversation with you.

他不需要刻意模仿任何人，也完全不会给人这样的感觉。

And it's not him trying to be anyone else, or it doesn't feel like that.

这并不显得做作。

It doesn't feel performative.

这就是他本来的样子，无论是和你喝咖啡闲聊，还是站在成千上万人面前的舞台上。

It just feels like him like that's who he would be, whether he is having a coffee chat with you or whether he's on stage in front of thousands of people.

因此我非常钦佩他，不仅是因为他的工作成果，还有他的沟通方式。

So he's someone I hugely admire, not just in terms of the work that he does, but also his communication approach.

能够把事情讲得通俗易懂，同时保持真实，这是非常强大的能力。

The ability to make things accessible, but also be very authentic, very powerful skills.

自从去年以来，我想知道你对最后一个问题的答案是否也有所改变。

So since you were last year, I'm wondering if your answer to our final question has changed as well.

成功沟通的三个首要要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

我认为必须从'为什么'开始。

I think you have to start with the why.

你为什么要传达你正在传达的内容？

So why are you communicating what you're communicating?