254. 重新开始：如何通过框架、时机和沟通改善你的财务状况

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

你是否害怕闲聊？

Do you dread small talk?

那种尴尬、不知道说什么、担心如何开始和结束的焦虑？

The awkwardness, the not knowing what to say, the worry over how to start and how to end?

别再担心了。

Well, worry no more.

你可以学会提升这项重要技能。

You can learn to be better at this important skill.

通过参与我们‘快速思考，聪明表达’学习社区的免费闲聊学习挑战，正确开启2026年。

Start 2026 right by participating in a free small talk learning quest on our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community.

从1月20日太平洋时间上午8点开始，我将主持一场为期四天的免费学习挑战，教你最佳实践，让闲聊变得更轻松、更高效，也更有趣。

Beginning January 20 at 8AM Pacific, I will host a free four day learning quest that will teach you best practices to make small talk not only easier and more productive, but fun.

在免费挑战期间，每天你都可以在太平洋时间上午8点登录参与直播，或观看录播。

Each day during the free quest, you'll either log in live 8AM Pacific or watch the recording of it.

我会向你介绍每天的任务，并提供一些快速指导。

I'll introduce you to your daily task and give you some quick guidance.

你可以随时加入。

You can join in at any point.

每天的技能本身就能帮助你。

Each day's skill will help you in and of itself.

你还将有机会在探索活动的第二天加入我们的常规读书会。

You'll also get to join one of our regular book clubs taking place on the second day of the quest.

这是一种有趣、免费、低压力的方式，让你与来自世界各地的志同道合的人一起学习。

This is a fun, free, low stress way to learn with like minded people from around the world.

请在1月19日前注册我们的学习社区以参与活动。

Sign up for our learning community by January 19 to participate.

前往 fastersmarter.iolearning。

Go to fastersmarter.iolearning.

再次提醒，网址是 fastersmarter.iolearning。

Again, that's fastersmarter.iolearning.

现在让我们听听一位赞助商的话。

Now a word from one of our sponsors.

他们的支持使我们能够免费为您提供优质内容。

Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge.

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

我最近进行了一些国际旅行，每当看到人们能说他们访问国家的语言时，我都感到非常惊讶。

I recently have done some international travel, and I'm always amazed when people can speak the language of the country they're visiting.

所以对于我即将开始的旅行，我将使用Babbel——我首选的、基于科学验证的语言学习应用。

So for my upcoming trip, I'll be using Babbel, my go to app for science backed language learning.

Babbel让我能够循序渐进地练习真实生活中的对话，而且毫无压力。

Babbel lets me practice real life conversation step by step without the stress.

它帮助我在关键时刻建立自信，无论是点咖啡还是与新朋友聊天。

It helps me build the confidence to speak up when it matters, from ordering a coffee or chatting with new friends.

无论你最适合通过听、说、读还是写来学习，Babbel都会根据你的学习风格进行调整，并通过个性化学习计划、实时反馈和进度追踪让你保持动力。

However you learn best by listening, speaking, reading, or writing, Babbel adapts to your style and keeps you motivated with personalized learning plans, real time feedback, and progress tracking.

现在，Babbel 正在 babbel.com/tfts 提供高达 55% 的订阅折扣。

Right now, Babbel is offering up to 55% off your subscription at babbel.com/tfts.

这是 Babbel，访问 babbel.com/tfts 即可享受最高 55% 的折扣。

That's Babbel, babbel,.com/tfts to get up to 55% off.

规则和限制可能适用。

Rules and restrictions may apply.

我们所能进行的最具挑战性的对话之一，就是关于财务的对话。

One of the most challenging conversations we can have is about finances.

我叫马特·阿布拉姆斯，我在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略沟通。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，明智表达》播客。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天，我期待与温迪·德·拉罗萨对话。

Today, I look forward to speaking with Wendy De La Rosa.

温迪是宾夕法尼亚大学沃顿商学院的教授，也是常识实验室的联合创始人。

Wendy is a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and she's the cofounder of the Common Sense Lab.

那就是 sense，c E N T S。

That's sense, c E N T S.

她的研究专注于理解和改变消费者的财务行为。

Her research focuses on understanding and changing consumer financial behavior.

她研究了个人财务环境中的微小变化如何对其消费和储蓄习惯产生重大影响。

She studies how small changes in a person's financial environment can have a large impact on their spending and saving habits.

好吧，温迪，我非常期待这次对话。

Well, Wendy, I am super excited to have this conversation.

感谢你莅临。

Thanks for being here.

很高兴能来。

Happy to be here.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

是的。

Yeah.

我们是不是

Should we

开始吧？

get started?

就这么办。

Let's do it.

在您关于财务决策的研究中，您曾花时间研究过‘全新开始效应’。

In your work on financial decision making, you've spent some time working on the fresh start effect.

您能分享一下这是什么，以及我们如何在自己的动机中利用它吗？

Can you share what that is and how we can actually leverage that in our own motivation?

这是个非常好的问题。

That's such a great question.

我要向真正做出贡献的人致谢。

I want to give credit where credit is due.

‘全新开始效应’是由我的一位杰出同事凯蒂·米尔克曼发现的，她在这里领导着我们的‘行为改变造福社会’计划。

So the fresh start effect is identified by Katie Milkman, one of my amazing colleagues here who leads our initiative Behavior Change for Good.

在她的研究中，她指出每个人都希望改变。

And in her work, she sort of identifies the fact that everybody wants to change.

我们希望成为更好的人。

We want to be better humans.

我们希望成为更好的父母、更好的配偶，等等，更好地管理我们的金钱。

We want to be better parents, better spouses, etcetera, better with our money.

但如何以及何时实现，总是难以弥合意图与行动之间的差距。

But this how and the when is always a little bit hard bridging that gap between intention and action.

因此，行为研究的一个关键发现是，我们需要精准把握干预时机，以激活并达到我们行动的动机高峰。

And so one of the key findings in behavioral research is that we need to time our interventions really well so that your motivation to act is activated and peaked.

研究表明，人们在App Store下载财务管理应用的最高峰时间是12月31日和1月1日——新年新我。

And so we know from research that the number one time when people download financial management apps on at the App Store, for example, is December 31 and January 1, New year, new me.

但新鲜起点效应并不仅仅局限于这个时候。

But fresh start effect doesn't just have to start there.

我们也可以考虑自己的生日。

We can think about our birthdays.

我们可以考虑新季节、每个月的开始、每周的开始。

We can think about new seasons, the beginning of every month, the beginning of every week.

我与一家名为Silverness的公司合作进行了一项实验，我们利用这个想法做了一些我认为非常独特的事情。

One of the experiments that I conducted with a company called Silverness, we used this idea to do something that I think was really unique.

Silverness是一家致力于连接老年人以解决某个问题的公司。

So Silverness is this company that tries to connect older adults with each other to try to solve a problem.

第一，如今在美国住房成本如此高昂；第二，我们正面临孤独症流行的问题。

One, housing is so expensive now in The United States, but two, we have a loneliness epidemic.

我们知道，影响我们长期健康乃至寿命的最重要因素之一，就是我们每天与他人进行有意义互动的次数。

And we know one of the biggest predictors of our long term health, even our longevity, is the number of daily meaningful interactions we have with another human being.

因此，他们试图将老年人配对。

And so they try to pair up older adults.

正如你所想象的，这很难开口，对吧？

As you can imagine, that's a hard ask, right?

让我邀请一个我不认识的人住进我的家。

Let me invite somebody that I don't know into my home.

因此，我们在他们的营销上做了一些实验，主要是在Facebook广告上说：嘿，你即将从64岁迈入65岁。

So we ran a couple of experiments on their marketing, mostly on Facebook ads to say, Hey, you're 64 turning 65.

你有没有考虑过做出一些改变？

Have you thought about a change?

或者你即将从49岁迈入50岁，或者正处在50岁出头的阶段。

Or you're 49 turning 50 or your fifties returning 54.

你有没有考虑过做出一些改变，而不是仅仅在变老？

Have you thought about a change versus you're getting older?

你有没有考虑过做出一些改变？

Have you thought about a change?

这并不令人意外。

It's not a surprise.

人们都知道自己的年龄。

People know their age.

这并不是什么新信息，但它是一个提示，表明正在发生一场有意义的转变。

It's not new information, but it's a cue to say there's a meaningful change happening.

也许我应该重新审视一下我的生活方式。

Maybe I should reexamine how I'm living my life.

我们发现这导致了广告的点击率更高。

And we saw that it led to higher click through rates on the ads.

它还带来了网站上更多的活动。

It led to more activity on the website.

因此我们对这一点感到非常兴奋。

And so we were really excited about that.

找到能够帮助人们从意图转向行动的信号，这一点非常重要。

This idea of finding signals that can help move people from intention to action is really important.

它可能是一个特定的日期。

And it can be a particular date.

它也可能是其他一些重要的事件，只是帮助我们重新聚焦。

It can be some other significant event that just helps us refocus.

听起来这不仅带来了更多的专注，还带来了更多的实际行动。

And it sounds like it leads to not only more focus, but actually more action.

对我来说，时机就是一切。

For me, I think timing is everything.

不仅仅是在关系中，对吧？

Not just in relationships, right?

我们有句老话：时机就是一切。

We have that old saying, timing is everything.

但在行为改变方面，时机同样至关重要。

But timing is everything when it comes to behavior change.

这是我论文中的一个核心发现，即我们领取金钱的时间点。

It was one of the core sort of findings in my dissertation that even the timing of how we receive our money.

所以，如果你每周领工资、每两周领一次，还是每月领一次，这会从根本上改变你对自己拥有多少钱的感受。

So if you receive your paycheck every week versus every two weeks versus every month, that fundamentally changes how much money you think you have.

所以，更高的支付频率，对吧？

So higher payment frequencies, right?

当我们领工资的时间间隔更短时，会让我们感觉稍微富裕一些。

When we have shorter time intervals between when we get paychecks, it makes us feel a little bit richer.

因此，我们更有可能在边际上消费。

And so therefore we're more likely to spend on the margins.

所以这反而可能损害我们的财务状况。

So it paradoxically can undermine our financial well-being.

在收入客观水平不变的情况下，对吧？

Holding constant the objective level of income, right?

所以我们俩的收入都是5万、10万、15万美元。

So we're both earning whatever it is, 50,000, 100,000, 100 and 50,000.

但仅仅改变发放时间，我们对金钱的关系就突然改变了。

But just by changing the timing of it, all of a sudden, relationship with money changes.

我们有大量例子表明，时机的重要性是一个被忽视但非常关键的方面，我们都应该在生活中思考它。

And we have so many examples of showing the importance of timing as this underexplored but really important aspect that we should all be thinking about in our lives.

所以，如果我是一名管理者，如何利用你关于时机的见解来更好地激励员工，提高效率和生产力？

So if I'm a manager running an organization, how could I leverage your insights into timing to perhaps motivate my employees more, help with efficiency and productivity?

对此有什么建议吗？

Any ideas on that?

我认为有两个关键建议。

Well I think there's two key recommendations I would have.

首先，我们知道生产力与财务健康状况密切相关。

The first one is we know that productivity is fundamentally tied to financial well-being.

所以，如果你的员工财务压力大，他们就无法在工作中全身心投入。

So if your employees are financially stressed, they can't show up with their full self at work.

他们的大脑活动和注意力会集中在其他事情上。

Their brain activity, their attention is going to be focused on something else.

因此，作为管理者，我总是说，你知道当员工生病时，你会给他们病假。

And so as a manager, I always say, look, you know that when your employees are sick, you give them a sick day.

当他们需要休假、需要休息以避免倦怠时，对吧？

When they need vacation, when they need to rest to avoid burnout, right?

我们有休假天数。

We have vacation days.

我建议给每个人放一天财务健康日，因为每个人，再次回到意图与行动之间的差距，我们都明白应该回去重新审视自己的退休申请并增加投入。

I suggest giving everybody a financial health day because everybody, again, back to this intention action gap, we all know that we should go back and revisit our retirement application and increase that.

我们都明白，应该最终去为孩子开设一个529教育储蓄账户。

We all know that we should finally get around to opening up a five twenty nine account for our children.

我们都明白，应该去立遗嘱，以及所有那些人们知道该做但一直拖延的事情。

We all know that we should probably create a will and all of these things that people know they should do.

关键在于时间。

The critical piece is time.

因此，如果你在组织中建立一种规范，设立一个财务健康日，让大家在这一天共同努力，整理好自己的财务事务。

So if you create a norm in your organization, create a financial health day to say, everybody on this date, we're all going to try to get our collective act together.

抽出时间，终于给你的信用卡公司打电话，要求降低利率。

Take the time to finally call your credit card company and ask for a lower interest rate.

抽出时间，终于取消那些你早就该取消的旧订阅服务——不管那是二十年前就该取消的，还是其他情况，因为这不仅仅是件好事。

Take the time to finally cancel that old subscription that you know you should have canceled twenty years ago or whatever the case may be, because it's not just something good to do.

研究表明，这能提高员工的生产力。

Research has shown it increases the productivity of your workers.

所以，这是第一条建议。

So that's tip number one.

我喜欢这个想法。

I like that idea.

你刚刚激励我去修改一些订阅计划。

And you've just motivated me to go change some subscription plans.

谢谢。

So thank you.

我总是告诉人们，把它写进日历里，爱自己，今天就优先照顾自己。

You know, I always tell people, put it in your calendar, love yourself to prioritize you today.

但第二点是，要认真思考你让员工做出财务决策的时间点。

But the second piece is to really fundamentally think about the timing of when you're asking your employees to make financial decisions.

例如，我们要求员工在入职第一周就做出关键的财务决策。

For example, we ask our employees to make critical financial decisions in the first week of employment.

比如，你的退休金投资比例如何分配？

Like what's your retirement allocation going to be?

在你刚雇用某人的第一周，他们可能正忙着和IT部门多次沟通，弄清楚自己的登录名、用户名和密码，甚至都记不清自己到底叫迪克、乔还是哈里。

In the first week that you've just hired somebody, they're probably trying to have multiple calls with IT to figure out what their login and username and password is going to be to remember whether or not your name is, you know, Dick, Joe or Harry.

对吧？

Right?

在入职的第一周，有太多事情在发生。

There's so many things that are happening in that first week of employment.

这根本就不是一种可持续的安排。

Like it's just not set up in a way that's sustainable.

所以我认为，第一点是为员工创造空间，积极鼓励他们回头重新考虑这个决定，如果你还没有实现自动化的话。

So I think that's one, like create space for employees to go back and actively encourage employees to go back to really think about that decision if you don't already automate it.

我觉得你说得非常对，当我们让刚步入职业生涯的人早早做出这些根本性决定时，他们自己都还在摸清方向。

I think you're dead on right when we ask people early on in their careers to make all these fundamental decisions that they're just trying to get which end is up figured out.

当我和我妻子订婚时，我也感到过同样的压力。

I felt the same way when my wife and I got engaged.

当时有各种各样的问题，比如你想要什么礼物等等。

There were all these questions about what do you want for your gifts, etcetera.

如果我当时已经结婚一年了，我一定会彻底改变我当初想要的东西。

And had I had a year into the marriage, I would have changed everything about what I was asking for.

因此，我们认为可以帮助员工，让他们在对工作有更深理解之后再做出这些长期决策，这是一个非常好的想法。

And so the idea that we can help our employees by having them make these decisions that are long term a little later once they have a more appreciation, think is a great idea.

你研究过框架效应在财务决策中的力量。

You've studied the power of framing on financial choices.

你能举一个具体的例子吗？比如，领导者或经理在传达预算削减或新的财务政策时，其沟通方式如何触发稀缺心态，或激发解决问题的心态？

Can you give a specific example of how a leader or manager's communication framing of, let's say, a budget cut or some new financial policy can either trigger a scarcity mindset or inspire a problem solving mindset?

为什么我们使用的词语以及表达方式会影响人们如何看待这些事情？

How come the words we use and the way we position it influence how people see it?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

我和斯蒂芬妮·塔利以及伊莎·沙马一起研究过一种叫做心理所有权的概念，它指的是人们对事物、地点、想法的感受。

I, along with Stephanie Tully and Isha Sharma, have looked at this concept called psychological ownership, which is like people's feelings about things, places, ideas.

我会不会觉得我拥有斯坦福大学，或者斯坦福的一部分？

Do I feel like I own Stanford, a piece of Stanford?

我会不会觉得斯坦福大学是我的？

Do I feel like Stanford is mine?

我会想到自己的笔记本电脑。

I think about my own laptop.

我甚至会说这是我的笔记本电脑，尽管它实际上属于宾夕法尼亚大学。

I even say this is my laptop, even though the ownership of it is actually the University of Pennsylvania's laptop.

思考员工对组织的心理所有权至关重要。

It's really important to think about what is the psychological ownership that your employees feel over the organization?

因为如果这是我的组织，我显然会更加关心它，并竭尽全力确保其成功；而如果沟通和表述方式都在强调你只是临时在这里，情况就完全不同。

Because if this is my organization, clearly I'm going to care much more about that organization and go out of my way to make sure it succeeds versus if the framing and the communication is all about you are just on loan here.

那些仅仅意识到这并非自己拥有的梦想的人，不会投入同样的热情、动力和注意力。

You're not going to get the same level of investment, motivation, attention from people who just recognize that this is not something that this is not a dream that I own.

我并不拥有它的一份。

I don't own a piece of it.

我甚至不被邀请去畅想在这里的未来。

I'm not invited to even dream about a future here.

因此，当负面事情发生时，如果你能让人参与其中，保持透明，并以尊严对待他们，使他们感受到心理上的归属感，我认为这非常重要。

And so when negative things occur, if you involve people in the process and are transparent and treat people with dignity so that they can feel psychological ownership, I think that's really important.

康奈尔大学的苏珊娜·朱做了一些研究，探讨如果增强公民对公共土地的心理所有权感，人们会更愿意保护这些土地。

Suzanne Chu at Cornell has done some work looking at if you increase the sense of psychological ownership of citizens over public lands, people are much more likely to take care of that land.

所以，这是一种超越单纯物品所有权的心理建构，对吧？

So this is one of the psychological constructs that goes beyond just ownership of a thing, right?

我们可以思考对地方、想法、成员身份、机构和组织的所有权，而我们常常忽视了这一点。

We can think about ownership of places, ideas, membership, institutions, organizations, and oftentimes we ignore that.

因此，我鼓励每一位聆听此内容的领导者自我检视一下，对吧？

And so I encourage any leader listening to this, check yourself, right?

我来自布朗克斯，所以就请自我检视一下吧。

I'm from The Bronx, so just check yourself.

你用什么样的词语来描述你的组织？

What are the words that you're using to describe your own organization?

我回家后要试着用这种方法对待我的孩子们。

I'm gonna go home and try this with my kids.

多跟他们谈谈他们的房间、整洁度，看看能不能让他们主动收拾周围的物品。

Talk a lot about your room, your cleanliness, and see if I can get them to pick up the stuff around.

但这种理念在于如何将人们与他们的工作和所做的事情联系起来，从而改变他们与工作之间的关系，以及他们投入的关怀和关注。

But this idea of it's how you can connect people to their work and to what they do, and then that changes the relationship they have and the care and concern they put forward.

你提到了财务羞耻这个概念。

You discussed the concept of financial shame.

这是什么？我们该如何与朋友和家人更开放地谈论金钱，以克服这种障碍，从而进行更真诚的对话？

What is this, and how can we talk about money more openly with friends and family to overcome this barrier so we can actually have more honest, conversations?

是的。

Yeah.

羞耻是一种具有麻痹作用的负面情绪。

Shame is one of these negative emotions that's paralyzing in many ways.

我认为我们确实如此，我会更多地从美国的语境来谈这个问题。

And I think we have and I'll talk about this more in sort of The US context.

我们一直把财务健康视为一种个人追求，对吧？

We have thought about financial well-being as this individual pursuit, right?

如果我在财务上取得了成功，我们通常会归因于个人特质。

If I am financially successful, by and large, we make dispositional attributions.

基本上，这是因为你的工作 ethic，你的智力，所有这些内在因素 versus 外在因素，对吧？

Basically, it's because of your work ethic, it's because of your intelligence, all of these internal versus external factors, right?

我们往往低估了运气、我们的社区、支持系统以及我们的导师等所有这些因素。

We tend to downplay luck, our communities, support systems, our mentors, all of these things.

因此，当人们发现自己处于经济不安全的状态，觉得自己已经竭尽全力却依然挣扎时。

And so when people find themselves in a place where they are not financially secure, where they feel like they are doing everything they can and yet they're struggling.

因为我们已经构建了这样一种叙事，认为财务福祉是一种个人主义的追求，那么除了我自己，还能怪谁呢？

Because we've created this narrative about financial well-being being this individualistic pursuit, then who is to blame other than myself?

只有我。

Only me.

因此，这种恶性循环催生了羞耻感——我该如何公开谈论这件事呢？

And so that vicious cycle creates the shame where how can I even talk about this openly?

因为如果我公开谈论这件事，只会让我一遍又一遍地意识到自己的个人感受。

Because me talking about this openly is only going to lead to me recognizing my own personal feelings over and over again.

而羞耻感，比其他任何负面情绪都更让我们选择忽视。

And shame, more so than any other negative feelings, emotions leads us to ignore.

在财务健康方面，这可能是你最不该做的事，对吧？

And in financial well-being, that's the worst thing you could do, right?

什么都不做是你能做的最糟糕的事。

Not doing anything is the worst thing you could do.

所以我常告诉人们：让我们深呼吸，试着化解财务上的羞耻感，因为我们必须认识到，如今所有的公司都在变得更快、更聪明、更高效。

So what I like to tell people is let's breathe and try to melt the financial shame away because we have to recognize that every company out there is getting faster, smarter, more efficient.

我们甚至还没在这段对话中提到人工智能，而它正让你更容易花掉钱。

Of course, we haven't even talked about AI in this conversation at getting you to part with your money.

这甚至不是大卫对抗歌利亚的隐喻，如果你想要这个隐喻，那更像是大卫对抗成千上万个歌利亚。

It's not even a David versus Goliath metaphor, if you'd like that metaphor, it's a David versus thousands of Goliaths.

因此，一旦你意识到环境并没有为你成功而设计，我们就能对自己多一些同理心，然后重新塑造我们的环境。

And so once you recognize that the environment is not necessarily set up for you to succeed, then we can have a little bit more empathy with ourselves and then recreate our environment.

这才是关键所在。

And that's the critical piece.

对吧？

Right?

我们不能只是坐在当前的环境中，期待事情自己改变。

We can't just sit in the current environment and expect things to change.

让我们想想如何尽最大努力重塑我们的环境。

Let's figure out how we can do our best to recreate our environment.

人们可以做些什么来重塑这种环境，从而感受到掌控感，而不是成为因未能做应做之事而自责的受害者？

What are some things people can do to recreate that environment so they feel a sense of agency rather than being the victims of not doing what they should be doing?

这是个很好的观点。

That's a great point.

首先，我告诉人们，你比任何人都更了解自己的财务状况。

So first, I tell people, you know your financial situation better than anybody else.

你了解自己的缺点和优点。

You know your vices and your virtues.

正如我们之前谈到的，财务健康日有助于掌控你的缺点。

The financial health day, as we talked about earlier, to get a handle on your vices.

这对一些人来说意味着什么？

And what does that mean for some people?

我意识到，我一次可以拒绝买那件新夹克，但当它在我整个在线旅程中日复一日地跟踪我时，我可能没有足够的意志力在第一百次时说不。

It's I recognize that I can say no to that new jacket one time, but when it follows me throughout my entire online journey, day in and day out, I may not have the willpower to say no the hundredth time.

那么，我们该如何重建环境，在整个财务生活中安装广告拦截器呢？

And so how do we recreate our environment and install ad blockers throughout your entire financial life?

DoorDash、Instacart 或 Uber Eats 的便利性实在太高了。

The convenience of a DoorDash or an Instacart or Uber Eats is just so high.

所以我建议人们要么决定将这个应用从手机上删除，要么将其链接到一张预付卡，从而为自己设定一个强制性的消费限额。

And so I tell people either make the decision to remove that app from your phone or link it to a prepaid card where you're installing and instilling a mandatory limit on yourself.

第三点是，时机至关重要。

And then the third piece is timing matters so much.

我现在听起来可能像老生常谈，但这真的非常关键。

So I sound like a broken record now, but it just, it is so critical.

看看你什么时候发工资，再看看你的账单什么时候到期。

Take a look at when you receive your pay and take a look at when your bills come in.

如果你的发薪日是每月一号，而你的大额信用卡账单直到十七号才到期，这就造成了根本性的不匹配，从而为过度消费创造了机会。

And if there's a fundamental mismatch there because you get paid on the first and your big credit card bill is not due until the seventeenth, then now you're allowing opportunities for overspending.

打电话给信用卡公司，调整你的还款日，使其与你的发薪日对齐。

Call the credit card company and change your payment days so it aligns with your paydays.

听起来你在谈论自动化一些事情来保持你在那条轨道上，同时审视所有已经存在的自动化设置，并对其中一些提出挑战，这样你就不一定会成为某些工作的受害者。

It sounds like you're talking about automating some things that keep you on that path and also looking at all the automations that already exist and challenging some of them so that you can not necessarily fall victim to some of that work.

作为可能想要提供建议或帮助那些对自己的财务状况不如预期那样有掌控力的人。

As somebody who might want to give advice or to help someone who is perhaps not in as much control of their finances as they'd like to be.

你有没有建议和指导，关于如何以不具威胁性、真正能被听到且有益的方式给予那种反馈？

Do you have advice and guidance on how to give that kind of feedback in a way that doesn't feel threatening and can truly be heard and helpful?

我想从爱的角度来阐述这个问题。

I'd like to frame it from the concept of love.

就像我们看到所爱之人手臂骨折时，我们不会置之不理。

Like, when we see somebody that we love with a broken arm, we don't just ignore it.

我们不会转过头去假装无事，只握住他们另一只手。

We don't just turn our head and pretend and hold their other hand.

那不是我们的做法。

That's not what we do.

我们试图去解决它。

We try to address it.

我们鼓励他们去看医生，无论是什么原因。

We encourage them to go see the doctor for whatever reason.

我们对财务状况却不是这样做的。我想说，财务是餐桌下那个隐形的人。

We don't do that with financial well And finances, I like to say, are the hidden person at the dinner table.

如果你知道有一位朋友正在经历重大的人生变化，无论是有了新孩子、结婚、上大学、为新工作搬去另一个国家、离婚，还是接受癌症治疗——我们生活中所有重要的事情，几乎都会伴随着一些财务上的变化。

If you know and you have a friend that's going through a major life change, whether that's a new child, getting married, going to college, moving across the country for a new job, getting divorced, going through cancer treatment, everything that's meaningful in our lives, sadly, also come by and large with some financial change.

因此，忽视这一点实际上并不是爱的表现。

And so to ignore that is actually not loving.

所以，我首先要说的是，从爱的角度出发去处理。

And so the first thing I would say is approach it from a place of love.

我真的很关心你。

I really care about you.

我爱你。

I love you.

帮我理解一下发生了什么，我们能怎么帮忙？

Help me understand what's going on and how can we help?

帮助并不总是意味着借钱或给钱。

And help doesn't have to be always lending or giving money.

帮助可以是陪某人度过难关、帮他们连接到合适的资源，或者只是提供时间和支持。

Help can be helping someone walk through a situation or connecting them to the appropriate resources or just providing time and support.

我们有这么多方式可以提供帮助。

There's all of these ways that we can help.

我所说的第二点是，有令人担忧的数据表明，人们更愿意和朋友谈论自己的政治观点、过去的恋爱史和性经历等事情。

And the second thing I was saying is that there are troubling statistics showing that people are much more likely to talk with their friends about their political ideology, their past dating history and sexual escapades and all of these things.

但不知为何，金钱仍然是个禁忌话题。

But for whatever reason, money is still taboo.

以至于有高达百分之四十的订婚情侣尚未向对方公开自己的收入情况。

So much so that engaged couples, like forty percent of engaged couples have not shared their income with one another.

你即将说，我准备和你共度一生，但你却不想分享你的财务状况。

Like you're about to say, I'm ready to go through life with you, but I don't you don't want to share your financial picture.

那里有些根本性的问题。

There's something fundamentally broken there.

这也许有点老生常谈，但如果你打算和某人共度一生，那就谈谈财务吧，把它当作约会，开一瓶葡萄酒，记在日历上，说：让我们一起敞开心扉。

And this is maybe a little cliche, but if you're gonna spend life with someone, have the financial conversation, make it a date, get a bottle of wine, put it on the calendar and say, let's be vulnerable together.

因为爱如果不是脆弱，又是什么呢？

Because what else is love if not vulnerability?

把这视为爱和对他人关怀的礼物，我认为这是一种很好的方式，而不是说我拥有你没有的东西，让我来帮你。

Framing it as love and as a gift of concern for somebody, I think, is a great way of doing it rather than I have something that you don't have and let me help you.

我真的很喜欢把这件事变成一种仪式的想法。

I really like the idea of turn it into an event.

让它成为一件不费力的事。

Make it something that isn't a labor.

如果你愿意，它实际上可以变得很有趣，以建立这种联系。

It's something that actually can be fun if you will just to have this kind of connection.

改变关于这种讨论的常态。

And change the norms around the discussion.

我和朋友们过去每个月都会举办一次早午餐，专门讨论财务问题。

One of the things that my girlfriends and I used to do is we used to have monthly brunches just to talk about finances.

你是怎么要求加薪的？

So how did you ask for a raise?

你现在拿多少薪水？

What are you getting paid right now?

这些都是非常重要却从未被提及的对话，而它们能帮助每个人。

These are all important conversations that aren't had and that help everybody.

但要进行这样的对话确实很奇怪。

But it's odd to have that conversation.

所以你需要建立一种规范。

So you have create a norm.

嘿。

Hey.

我们要彼此坦诚相待，因为我们关心对方，而且我们要互相支持。

We're gonna be transparent with each other about this because we care and we're gonna lift each other up.

所以，是的，咱们就来个醉醺醺的早午餐吧。

And so, yeah, let's do it over boozy brunch.

我觉得这很棒。

I think that's great.

在我的生活中，我发现对于许多禁忌话题，只要开启对话，就会为他人分享创造机会。

I have found in my life with lots of topics that are taboo that just initiating the conversation opens up the opportunity for others to share.

我喜欢这个想法：让我们让它更有趣，建立联系，并展示我们如何互相支持。

And I love this idea of let's make it funner, let's connect, and let's show how we're supporting each other.

我们稍后回来继续我们的对话，但首先，我们要插播一段来自赞助商的广告。

We'll be back to finish our conversation, but first, we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

这些赞助支持了我们节目的制作成本，让我们能够免费为您带来这一集。

These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring you this episode free of charge.

本集《快速思考，明智表达》由Squarespace赞助播出。

This episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart is brought to you by Squarespace.

你好，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

如果你管理团队、经营业务或带领一个群体，你已经知道清晰度和可信度至关重要，尤其是在你在线上的表现方式上。

If you manage a team, run a practice or lead a group, you already know clarity and credibility matter, especially in how you show up online.

无论这是针对客户、合作伙伴，还是你想要服务的人群。

Whether that's for clients, partners or the people you're trying to serve.

Squarespace 是一个一体化平台，让你无需陷入技术细节就能轻松创建专业的网站。

Squarespace is an all in one platform that makes it easy to build a professional website without getting buried in the technical details.

他们的前沿设计工具能帮助你打造外观精致、意图明确的作品，即使设计并非你的本职工作。

Their cutting edge design tools help you create something that looks polished and intentional, even if design is not your job.

如果你提供辅导、咨询、工作坊或培训等服务，Squarespace 能让你在一个平台上展示你的服务、预约时段、发送账单并收款。

And if you offer services like coaching, consulting, workshops, training, Squarespace lets you showcase what you do, schedule sessions, send invoices, and get paid all in one place.

他们还内置了分析功能，让你了解用户真正感兴趣的内容以及需要专注的方向。

They also have built in analytics so you can see what people are actually engaging with and where to focus.

前往 squarespace.com 申请免费试用。

Go to squarespace.com for a free trial.

当你准备上线时，使用优惠码 TFTS 可享受网站或域名首笔订单10%的折扣。

And when you're ready to launch, use offer code TFTS to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

温迪，这场对话真是太棒了。

Wendy, this has been a fantastic conversation.

在结束之前，我想向所有嘉宾提三个问题。

Before we end, I like to ask three questions of all my guests.

第一个是专为你定制的，另外两个是针对所有人的相似问题。

One, create just for you, and two are similar across everyone.

你准备好了吗？

Are you up for that?

我准备好了。

I am.

温迪，你做了大量非常有趣且深入的研究。

So, Wendy, you've done a lot of really interesting in-depth research.

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

在你的工作中，最让你感到惊讶的是什么？

What has surprised you most in the work that you've done?

我认为最让我印象深刻的核心发现是，我们总是倾向于把收入看作一个单维的结构。

I think the core finding that has sort of always stuck with me is that we always tend to think about income as this unidimensional construct.

对吧？

Right?

它只是关于我赚5万美元，你赚7万美元，或者我赚10万美元，你赚20万美元，而这实际上只是收入的一个维度，即收入水平。

It's all about I earn 50,000 and you earn 70,000, or I earn a 100,000 and you earn $200,000 And that's actually just one dimension of income, which is level.

最让我惊讶的是，通过改变收入的其他维度——比如频率、收入波动性、来源（是奖金还是工资）——我们能多么显著地改变、调整和影响消费者行为。这些我们在对话中没有深入探讨的方面，其实非常重要，它们塑造了人们对这笔钱的看法，并从根本上影响了他们的消费方式。

The thing that has surprised me the most is how much we can change and alter and influence consumer behavior by altering the other dimensions of income, like the frequency, like the income volatility of income, like the source, whether it's coming as a bonus or as a salary, all of these things that we didn't really get into in our conversation really matter and frame how people think about that money and fundamentally spend that money.

将视野放宽，不再把收入视为单一的单位，这一理念真的能产生巨大影响。

That idea of widening the aperture to look beyond income is just one unitary thing can really make a difference.

谢谢你分享这一点。

Thank you for sharing that.

第二个问题，你钦佩的沟通者是谁？为什么？

Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

哦，太多了。

Oh, so many.

我要说，亚当·格兰特一直是一个极具影响力的人物。

I will say Adam Grant has just been such a powerful force.

他加入马丁团队的第二年，我还是他的学生。

I was a student his second year when he joined Martin.

我觉得他有一种非凡的能力，通过分享自己的脆弱来与人建立联系。

I think he has like such an amazing way of connecting with people by sharing his own vulnerabilities.

因此，我希望以他为榜样，改进我的教学方式。

And so I'd like to emulate a lot of my teaching based on him.

他对我人生的影响非常深远，我感到非常幸运。

He's been highly influential in my life, and I'm so lucky.

但我认为，在我生命中最具直接和深远影响力的沟通者是我的母亲。

But I think the most direct and most influential communicator in my life has been my mother.

她是加勒比地区俗语的女王和大师，这些俗语总能以他人无法企及的方式直击人心。

She is the queen and master of Caribbean idioms that just cut deep in a way that no one else can.

对。

Right.

我最近在分享时发现，我现在经常重复她的话：要学会爱那些爱你的人。

I was sharing recently and I just find myself now repeating her idioms, learn to love those who love you.

还有那些话都是我母亲说的，比如每个锅都有对应的盖子。

And that was that those are just words from my mother or there's a lid for every pot.

或者像这些充满智慧的种种说法。

Or, like, all of these things that have so much wisdom.

我只是想说，智慧就体现在日常俗语中。

I was just gonna say wisdom in common vernacular sayings.

是的。

Yes.

以一种极其简洁的方式。

In a way that is so succinct.

她从不浪费任何一个字。

It doesn't waste any words.

她是个了不起的人，但真正让她如此出色的是她能自如地运用这些谚语。

She is a great order, but it's her ability to just pull on these idioms that make her so amazing.

它们能引起共鸣。

And how they hit a chord.

它们触动心弦。

They strike a chord.

如果你的母亲像我母亲一样，这些话总会在恰到好处的时候出现。

And if your mother is like my mother, they come at just the right time.

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

有时候你并不想听，但你却需要它们。

Sometimes when you don't want them to, but you need them.

它们会久久回荡，让你真正体会到它们的分量。

And they reverberate for a while and you really see how they hit.

最后一个问题。

Final question.

成功沟通的配方中，前三个关键要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

所以我认为第一个是好奇心。

So the first I would say is curiosity.

如果你不对对方感到好奇，就无法真正参与对话。

You can't actually engage in a conversation without being curious about the other person.

如果不是这样，那你只是在自言自语。

If not, then you're just engaging in a soliloquy.

第二个是谦逊，要明白你听到的并不一定就是对方真正想表达的意思。

The second would be humility to understand that what you're hearing is not necessarily what the person is saying.

在倾听过程中，信息的流失非常严重。

There's so much loss in hearing.

然后我认为第三个是清晰。

And then I think the third is clarity.

为了成为一个有效的沟通者，你需要清楚地表达自己的需求、愿望和信息。

So in order to be an effective communicator, you need to be clear in your own wants and your own needs and in your own message.

太多东西都因含糊不清而丢失了。

And so much gets lost in vagueness.

我认为人们常说清晰即仁慈。

I think people keep saying clarity is kindness.

我觉得这太对了。

I think that's so true.

好奇心、谦逊和清晰度。

Curiosity, humility, and clarity.

一个绝妙的配方。

A wonderful recipe.

关于好奇心的观点是建立连接的桥梁，谦逊让我们意识到我们带入对话的很多东西可能会阻碍真正要表达的内容，而确保我们专注则能让人们更好地理解。

The point about curiosity is the bridge to connection, humility to realize that we bring a lot to our conversation that might actually get in the way of what's really being said, and making sure that we are focused so that people can understand.

谢谢。

Thank you.

也感谢你提供了我们都需要思考的关注点，无论是在财务方面，还是更广泛地关于我们如何学习和应对生活中非常困难且具有挑战性的情况，财务信息和财务问题就是其中之一。

And thank you for providing the focus we all need to be thinking about when it comes to our finances, but more broadly about how we learn and approach very difficult challenging situations in our lives, and financial information and finances are one of those things.

这次交流非常棒。

This has been wonderful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢您收听《Think Talk Smart》播客的又一期节目。

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Talk Smart, the podcast.

要了解更多关于如何更有效地进行财务沟通的信息，请收听第104期与凯蒂·米尔克曼的对话，以及第59期与黄素姬的对话。

To learn more about how to be more effective in your financial communication, please listen to episode one zero four with Katie Milkman and episode 59 with Suji Huang.

本集由凯瑟琳·里德、瑞安·坎波斯和我，马特·阿布拉姆斯制作，特别感谢沃顿播客团队。

This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams, with special thanks to the Wharton podcast crew.

我们的音乐来自Floyd Wonder，特别感谢Podium播客公司。

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

请在YouTube以及您收听播客的任何平台找到我们。

Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

别忘了订阅并为我们评分。

Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

此外，请在LinkedIn、TikTok和Instagram上关注我们。

Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram.

并访问fastersmarter.io，获取深度视频、英语学习内容和我们的通讯。

And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

请考虑我们的高级服务和扩展的DeepThinks节目——AskMadAnything，地址为fastersmarter.iopremium。

Please consider our premium offering and extended DeepThinks episodes, AskMadAnything at fastersmarter.iopremium.

在结束之前，我想衷心感谢您的收听。

Before we wrap up, I just wanna say thank you for listening.

听到世界各地的人们如何在自己的生活中运用这些理念，真的让我深受感动。

It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives.

这激励着我以及所有为您制作这档节目的团队成员。

It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show.

如果您希望获取更多节目和资源，欢迎关注、订阅并探索以往的对话内容。

If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations.

我们非常感激您对《Think Fast, Talk Smart》的支持。

We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.