262. 掌控全场：声音、呼吸与身体如何协同作用

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

回想一下，曾经你明明知道自己想说什么，却怎么也找不到合适的词句。

Think back to a time when you knew exactly what you wanted to say, but couldn't quite find the right words.

也许那是一次艰难的对话，一个非常重要的时刻，或者是你不想搞砸的事情。

Maybe it was a tough conversation, a moment that really mattered, or something you didn't want to mess up.

如果当时有个贴心的沟通教练在你身边，那该多好啊？

Wouldn't it have been great to have a helpful communication coach right there with you?

这正是我们打造AI CoachMat的原因——一个帮助你理清思路、思考如何表达的工具。

That's exactly why we built AI CoachMat, a tool you can use to help you think through what you want to say and how to say it.

这就像你直接向我这位沟通教练倾诉，而我会立即回应你。

It's as if you were speaking directly to me as your communication coach, and I respond immediately.

它已经在我们的学习社区中上线一段时间了，现在我们开放免费试用，让你也能体验。

It's been available inside our learning community for a while, and now we're opening it up so you can try it for free.

前往 fastersmarter.iolearning，点击右下角弹出的AI教练图标。

Go to fastersmarter.iolearning and click on the AI coach map pop up in the bottom right corner.

请访问 fastersmarter.iolearning 尝试一下，并在我们的任何社交媒体平台上告诉我你的想法。

Give it a try at fastersmarter.iolearning, and let me know what you think in any of our social media platforms.

现在插播一条我们赞助商的信息。

Now a word from one of our sponsors.

他们的支持使我们能够免费为您提供优质内容。

Their support allows us to bring you quality content free of charge.

大家好，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

职业指导通常通过我们的工作场所提供，这可能是一个很好的起点。

Career coaching often comes through our workplaces, which can be a great starting point.

但有时你希望有空间专注于自己的优先事项，而不是组织的。

But sometimes you want space to focus on your priorities, not your organization's.

这就是strawberry.me发挥作用的地方。

That's where strawberry.me comes in.

它是你可以为自己选择的职业教练。

It's career coaching you choose for yourself.

你只需回答几个简单问题，系统就会为你匹配一位经过审核的教练，而且在很多情况下，你可以在24小时内开始咨询。

You answer a few quick questions, get matched with a vetted coach, and in many cases, you can start within twenty four hours.

你可以自行选择教练，设定自己的目标，并坦诚地讨论真正重要的事情，无论是晋升、转行、职业倦怠，还是离职。

You choose the coach, you decide the goal, and you get to talk honestly about what actually matters, whether that's a promotion, a pivot, burnout, or even leaving.

这里没有人力资源部门介入，没有绩效考核的视角，如果感觉不合适，你可以随时更换教练。

There's no HR involved, no performance review lens, and if it's not the right fit, you can switch coaches.

我欣赏的是这种自主感。

What I appreciate is the sense of agency.

当你感到停滞不前时，等待通常无济于事。

When you're feeling stuck, waiting rarely helps.

如果你一直觉得有些事情需要改变，你不需要获得许可才能去探索。

If you've been thinking something needs to change, you don't need permission to explore that.

前往 strawberry.metfts。

Go to strawberry.metfts.

这是一种以你为中心的教练服务。

It's coaching focused on you.

把它看作是为你职业生涯提供的心理治疗。

Think of it as therapy for your career.

要真正地全神贯注于当下，你必须唤醒自己的声音。

To fully be present and in the moment, you must awaken your voice.

我叫马特·阿布拉姆斯，在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略沟通。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，明智表达》播客。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天，我非常高兴能与帕齐·鲁登伯格对话。

Today, I am delighted to speak with Patsy Rudenberg.

帕齐是声音、演讲和表达领域的世界知名专家，拥有超过四十五年的创意与企业行业教练经验。

Patsy is a world renowned expert in voice, speech, and presentation with over forty five years of experience coaching across creative and corporate industries.

她曾担任英国皇家国家剧院的声音总监，并担任皇家莎士比亚剧团的导演。

She's the former head of voice at the UK Royal National Theatre and a director for the Royal Shakespeare Company.

她彻底改变了演员、首相、首席执行官和全球领袖的沟通方式。

She has transformed how actors, prime ministers, CEOs, and global leaders communicate.

她撰写了许多书籍，包括《存在感与权威演讲》。

She's written many books, including Presence and Power Presentation.

欢迎你，帕茜。

Welcome, Patsy.

我早就期待着我们的这次对话了。

I've been excited for our conversation for quite a while now.

谢谢你来到这里。

Thanks for being here.

我非常高兴。

I'm so delighted.

而且，马特，我认为你在沟通方面所做的事非常重要，因为我认为这正是

And, Matt, I think you're doing something so important about communication because I think it's what

当今世界所需要的。

the world needs now.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

我们开始吧？

Shall we get started?

好的，请吧。

Yes, please.

太好了。

Excellent.

你曾帮助许多名人提升他们的气场和声音表现。

You have worked with a number of famous people to help them with their presence and voice.

我想先从声音谈起。

I'd like to start with voice.

当你进行指导时，会提供哪些基础的声音原则？

What are some of the foundational vocal principles you provide when you coach?

我的工作关乎身体感知，是一种帮助人们回归本真自我的技艺。

My work is about embodiment, and it's about a craft that is returning people to their natural selves.

好消息是，绝大多数人生来就拥有出色的声音，只是在某个阶段失去了它。

The good news is the vast majority of people are born with amazing voices, and somewhere along the line, they lose them.

我的工作是帮助人们重新获得身体、呼吸系统、声音以及说话能力的全部力量，并以激动人心的方式运用语言。

And my job is to return people to their full power in their body, in their breath systems, in their voices, in their ability to speak, and use language in an exciting way.

除了身心合一的部分，你还会在呼吸或发音方面帮助人们掌握哪些原则呢？

Beyond the embodiment piece, are there principles you help people with around breathing or articulation?

你能带我们做一些这样的练习吗？

Can you walk us through some of those exercises?

所以我要做的第一件事是观察一个人的身体，从脚部开始检查身体的紧张状态。

So the first thing I would do is I would look at somebody's body, and I would look at the tensions in the body starting with the feet.

身体就像一段相互连接的旅程。

The body is like a connected journey.

我们必须连接整个身体才能找到自己的声音。

We have to connect to our whole body to find our voice.

所以双脚，前脚掌要站稳，膝盖不要锁死。

So the feet, the front of the feet, the knees not being locked.

如果你锁死膝盖，那种紧张感会一直传递到全身，直至喉咙。

If you lock your knees, that tension goes all the way through the body into the throat.

很多声音紧绷的人，如果你看下去，他们的膝盖是锁住的。

A lot of people with very tight voices, if you look down, they're locking their knees.

身体中下一个极其重要的部位是骨盆位于髋部之上。

The next thing that's incredibly important in the body is that the pelvic area is on top of the hips.

但如今大多数人站立时，要么向前挺髋，要么锁住膝盖，这些紧张都会累积在身体里并向上延伸到喉咙。

But most people today, when they stand, they're either pushing their hips forward, locking their knees, and all that builds into the body and up into the throat.

但关于骨盆区域，重要的是我们必须从这里呼吸。

But the important thing about the pelvic area is that that is where we have to breathe from.

那是一种非常低沉的呼吸。

It's a very low breath down there.

我们还需要快速呼吸，以便快速思考。

We also have to breathe quickly to think quickly.

如果我们不呼吸就思考，就会变成胡言乱语。

If we think without breath, it becomes a gabble.

所以，如果你把手放在下腹部，轻轻感受一下，你应该能感觉到呼吸是向下沉的。

So if you put your hand on your lower abdominal area and just feel that, you should feel the breath goes down.

这需要一点时间，而且能让你平静下来。

And that takes a bit of time and it calms you.

我们说话时会感到害怕，是因为我们忘了呼吸。

We get frightened when we speak because we forget to breathe.

所以如果我向上移动身体，脊柱必须保持挺直，不是绷紧，不是向后拉肩膀，也不是无精打采地耷拉着。

So if I move up through the body, the spine has to be up, not braced, not pulling your shoulders back, not slumped.

如果我们绷紧或耷拉，就会减少呼吸，能量卡在喉咙里，这时你那些绝妙的想法就会以单调的方式表达出来，不是因为你无聊，而是因为你的声音被压抑且紧绷。

If we brace or slump, we reduce our breath and the energy gets stuck in the throat, which is when those wonderful ideas you have, they come out on a monotone, not because you're boring, because your voice is held and tight.

最后还有两点，肩膀要保持放松。

And the two last things, the shoulders being free.

如果你开始紧张，感觉声音变尖了，首先要做的就是告诉自己：放松肩膀，放松下巴。

If you're getting nervous, if you feel your voice is getting thinner, the first thing you can do is just to think to yourself, release my shoulders, release my jaw.

因为身体姿势不到位，就无法正常呼吸，我们要确保上胸部没有紧张感。

Because until the body's in place, you can't breathe, and we're looking to see no upper chest tension.

你可以把手放在上胸部，如果吸气时胸部抬起——大多数人在紧张时都会这样——就说明有问题。

You can put your hand on your upper chest, and if you breathe in, which most people do when they're nervous, the chest lifts.

它不应该抬起。

It shouldn't lift.

因为当它抬起时，我不确定你是否能感觉到，肋骨后部收紧意味着你没有在呼吸，因为肺部位于背部。

Because as it lifts, I don't know if you can feel, the back of the rib cage tighten means that you're not breathing because the lungs are at the back.

所以这是身体的平衡和让自己扎根于地面。

So it's balance of body and rooting yourself into the ground.

是的。

Yes.

并且关注外界。

And looking out at the world.

当然，我们在他们开口之前就已经知道会听谁的了。

And of course, we know who we're going to listen to long before they speak.

我们通过他们的身体来判断。

We know through their body.

如果你内心安定，当你进入一个空间时，就会带着权威和清晰感。

And if you're centered, you come on or you walk into a space with authority, with clarity.

所以接下来我要做的是，在气息的支撑下打开声音。

So the next thing I would do is open the voice with the breath underneath it.

如果你坐在桌子旁边，用手推桌子，你就能感受到这一点。

And you can feel this if you're sitting beside a desk, if you push your hands against the table.

记住你的脚踩在地板上，前脚掌着地，然后你呼吸，你会感觉到气息下沉得更深。

Remember your feet on the floor, the front of the feet on the floor, and you breathe, you will feel the breath go down more.

哇，这个活动真棒。

Wow, that's a great activity.

我一边说话一边就在这么做，我明白你的意思了。

I'm doing that as I speak and I see what you're saying.

身体引导呼吸，呼吸再引导声音，这让我觉得非常奇妙。

It is fascinating to me that body leads to breath, which leads to voice.

通过将这些元素连接起来，你就能改善并打开你的声音，让它做到我们想要它做的事情。

And by connecting those together, you can improve and open up your voice to do the things that we want it to do.

我经常说，你的声音就像一件管乐器。

I often will say your voice is like a wind instrument.

你通过它的气越多，就能用它做越多的事情。

The more air you put through it, the more you can do with it.

我所做的有限的发声训练中，我会建议我的学生和我指导的人，大声朗读可以作为一个工具，因为它模拟了大声说话，但能让你有更多认知空间去关注呼吸，因为我不需要思考我要说什么，我只是在读而已。

The limited voice work that I do, I recommend to my students and the people I coach that reading out loud can be a tool to help because it mimics speaking out loud, but it gives you a little bit more cognitive bandwidth to pay attention to breath because I don't have to think of the words I'm reading them.

大声朗读。

Read out loud.

当然。

Absolutely.

不过，这里还有一个小技巧。

Here's another trick, though.

所以，如果你站着看书，也许你在大声朗读时把书举起来，这样你就不会低头看，而低头是没有帮助的。

So if you stand with your book, maybe you're reading out aloud and you're holding the book up so that you're not looking down, which is not useful.

如果你一只手拿着书，背靠墙，用另一只手轻轻推墙，就像你推桌子时那样激活呼吸，你就能感受到呼吸。

And if you hold the book with one hand and stand against a wall and gently push with your other arm, which engages the breath just like it did when you were pushing the table, you'll feel the breath.

现在吸一口气，让你的声音朝着眼睛上方一点的位置发出。

Now take a breath and read out, your voice to a point just above eyeline.

这样一来，声音不仅能够顺畅发出，还会变得更加有力。

And then the voice not only leaves you, but it grows in strength.

我遇到的大多数声音，本身并没有什么问题。

Most voices I meet, there's nothing wrong with them.

它们可以变得更好，马特，只是有些生疏和蒙尘了。

They can be improved, Matt, but they're just rusty and dusty.

你知道，它们只是没有被好好使用。

They're not used, you know.

我经常在心里告诉自己，我的口才其实非常出色，但一开口就没那么走运了。

I often tell people in my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent, but when I open up my mouth, I am not as lucky.

你刚才提到的几点让我印象非常深刻。

You said several things there that really stand out to me.

你所遇到的那些声音。

The voices you meet.

我特别喜欢这个观点：我们就是自己的声音，我们遇见一个人，但真正相遇的是他们带来的声音。

I love that idea that we are our voice, and we meet the person, but the voice they bring.

而且我很喜欢这个观点：要足够慷慨，让你的声音被听见。

And I like this idea of being generous enough to let your voice out.

你的声音是一份礼物，你正在把它献给这个世界。

Your voice is a gift and you're giving it to the world.

我想在这里谈得非常具体和实用。

I want to get very tactical and practical here.

我认识的很多人都觉得自己的声音很轻。

Many people I know feel that their voice is quiet.

他们说话声音很轻。

They speak quiet.

你说了一些让我好奇的话。

You said something that made me wonder.

你说要想象你的声音越过你的视线。

You said visualize your voice going out over your eyeline.

我在想，就像运动员热身一样，我们也可以做一些事情来帮助预热我们的声音。

I imagine like an athlete warms up that there are some things we can do to help warm up our voice.

我常常惊叹，人们竟然认为可以从沉默直接进入声音的精彩表现，而无需热身。

I often marvel that people think they can go from silence to vocal brilliance without warming up.

你有一两个最喜欢的热身活动可以分享吗？或许我们可以一起练习一下？

Do you have a favorite warm up activity or two that you could share that we could practice perhaps?

我会让人站起来。

I'd get somebody standing.

当然，你站起来，感受一下，稍微伸展，让肩膀放松，你可能会向一侧弯腰并呼吸，这样胸腔就开始工作了。

Of course, you stand, you feel, you stretch a bit, you let the shoulders go, you might flop over to one side and breathe, the rib cage starts working.

胸腔很快就会变得非常僵硬。

The rib cage gets very rusty very quickly.

两边都做一下，这样我们就能得到非常轻柔的呼吸。

Do both sides so that we just get that very gentle, breath.

所以如果你安静地呼吸，你会惊讶地发现喉咙感觉多么美妙。

So if you breathe quietly, you'll be amazed how wonderful it feels in the throat.

它是开放的。

It's open.

另一个很好的方法是给自己一个拥抱。

And the other one which is great is to give yourself a hug.

从腰部稍微前倾，双臂贴在胸前，在这个姿势中吸气和呼气，这样可以打开肋骨的后部。

Just flop over a bit from the waist with your arms up against your chest and in that position breathe in and out and you will open the back of the rib cage.

我必须说，今天大多数人甚至不认为肋骨后部很重要。

I have to say most people today don't even think that the back of the rib cage is important.

但我们知道，从生理上讲，一旦让这些肌肉活动起来，早上第一件事就是要让气息支撑住声音。

But we know it organically so that if you get those muscles working and then first thing in the morning you have to get the breath underneath the voice.

所以这里有一个比喻，你是运动员，应该懂这些——把声音像投掷一样送出去。

So here's an image, I mean you're an athlete, you know these things, to throw the voice.

如果你能扔球，只要吸一口气，有个停顿，然后在呼气时把球扔出去。

So if you can throw a ball, if you just breathe in, there's a suspension and you throw the ball on the breath.

就像你之前推墙时那样，感受气息的流动。

Just like you did when you were pushing against the wall, you're feeling the breath.

如果你能做到这一点，可以试着在热身时用轻柔的哼鸣来练习气息的支撑。

If you can do that and to a point, say you're just warming up the support of the breath humming, very light.

你可以在整个表演中自由发挥。

You can play all over the play.

嘛，嘛，嘛，嘛，嘛，嘛。

Ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma.

你可以用你的声音玩出花样。

You can play with your voice.

你试图让嘴唇产生嗡鸣感，这是声音向前传递的生理标志。

And you're trying to get a buzz on the lips, which is the physical sign that your voice is coming forward.

如今大多数人声音都卡在喉咙深处，因此在那里含糊不清地嘟囔。

Most people today, their voice is stuck back down the throat, So they're mumbling down there.

如果声音卡在喉咙里，你就无法清晰说话，因为发音肌肉感受不到声音的能量。

And if the voice is stuck down the throat, you can't speak clearly because the speech muscles can't feel the energy of the voice.

保持呼吸。

Keep the breath.

保持声音从你体内流出的感觉。

Keep the idea of it leaving you.

然后也许可以发一个'哦'的音，这是让声音向前传递的好方法。

And then maybe on an oh, That's a lovely way of getting the voice forward.

哦。

Oh.

只需活动你的嘴唇，如果你这样做几分钟，然后大声说出一些文字，或者如果你要进行一场艰难的对话，就大声练习它。

Just bringing your lips and literally if you did that for a few minutes and then you spoke a bit of text out aloud or if you're having a difficult conversation, practice it out aloud.

带着目的和存在感在房子里走动，四处看看，望向窗外，呼吸，并练习你需要说的话。

Walk around the house with purpose, with your presence, walk around looking around, look outside a window, breathe, and practice what you have to say.

大声练习。

Practice out aloud.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

我听说过通过嘴唇振动和吹气来进行声乐热身，但我从未听说过要配合身体动作，比如拉伸身体。

I have heard of vocal warmups where you buzz your lips and puff out air, but I have never heard of working with the body, stretching the body.

我喜欢侧身倾斜、打开肋骨、前倾以及拥抱自己这些动作。

I like just leaning to the side, opening up the ribs, leaning forward, hugging yourself.

非常有用。

Very useful.

我喜欢这种想象把声音向前拉的理念，这样我们就不会含糊不清。

And I like that idea of visualizing pulling the voice forward so we're not mumbling.

我现在做的就是想象声音向外传递。

What I'm doing now is I'm just imagining the voice projected out.

不是强行推出来。

It's not pushed.

只是让它自然释放出来。

It's just you let it out.

几天之内，你就会感受到差异。

And within a few days, you will feel the difference.

这些简单的东西，人们常常忘记。

This is the simple stuff that people forget.

他们只想直接进入演讲。

They want to get onto the speech.

演讲是整个链条中的最后一环。

Speech is the last thing in the chain.

所以，一旦你热身了身体、呼吸和声音，就可以开始稍微动动嘴巴了。

So once you've warmed up your body and your breath and your voice, you can start moving your mouth about a bit.

但只要这些肌肉有声音和呼吸作为支撑，它们很快就能调整好状态。

But these muscles will tune up very quickly as long as they've got the voice and the breath behind them.

你又一次强调了身体、呼吸和声音之间的关联。

Yet again, you are emphasizing the connection of body, breath, and voice.

我想接下来谈谈肢体表现力，我知道这对你来说非常重要。

I'd like to transition to talk about physical presence, something I know is very important to you.

对于那些希望提升自己在沟通中肢体表现力的人，你有什么建议？

What advice do you have for anyone wishing to improve their physical presence in how they communicate?

我认为人的肢体表现力是我们拥有的最重要的东西。

I think the physical presence of the human being is the most important thing we have.

除非我们全身心投入，否则在生活中做任何事都不会出色。

We don't do anything well in life unless we put our full presence on it.

但如果你和人类学家交流，会发现让我们在地球上如此强大的原因是我们能够组建团队。

But it's, if you talk to anthropologists, what made us so powerful on the planet is that we could build teams.

只有当每个人都全神贯注时，团队才能真正存在。

A team doesn't exist until everyone is present.

而存在感就是拥有一种与周围世界连接的能量。

And presence is having an energy connecting to the world around you.

我们每个人都拥有这种能量。

And we all have it.

这是我们为了生存而做的事。

It's the survival thing that we do.

但存在感是一种向外的关注，不是关注自己，而是关注其他事物。

But presence is an outward focus, not on yourself, but to something else.

这也是我们在乡间漫步时所做的事。

And it's what we do when we walk in the countryside.

我们变得专注，因为我们看着一棵树或树上的鸟。

We become present because we look at a tree or a bird in a tree.

艺术就应该是这样的。

That's what art is supposed to do.

它应该把我们带回当下的状态。

It's supposed to bring us back to our presence.

我们去剧院。

We go to the theater.

演员必须全神贯注。

The actor has to be present.

整个剧组都全神贯注。

The ensemble is present.

他们帮助我们回归，正如莎士比亚所说，生存还是毁灭，这是个问题。

And they help bring us back, as Shakespeare says, to be or not to be, that is the question.

这是个问题。

That is the question.

因此，我相信我们生来就完全活在当下。

And so I believe we're all born fully present.

我们大多数人都是这样。

Most of us.

地球上几乎没有几个人缺乏存在感。

Very few people on the planet haven't got presence.

所以我们必须重新找回它。

So we have to refind it.

我在七十年代就开始了这项研究，创造了所谓的‘能量三圈’，因为我发现人们总说‘那个演员有气场，这个没有’，这完全是胡说。

I started this in the seventies and I created something called the three circles of energy because I found people were saying, oh, that actor has it and that one doesn't have it, which is rubbish.

我们每个人都有。

We all have it.

所以我在谈存在感时，指的是如果我们能理解自己在哪里把存在感丢掉了，这就是第一圈。

So what I talk about in presence is if we understand where we take our presence away from ourselves, and that's first circle.

第一圈的人，你常常能在他们的身体姿态上看到：他们把存在感收回去，低头看地，呼吸浅薄，把自己缩进一个小壳里，声音也随之变化。

First circle people, you will often see it in their body, they're pulling their presence away, they're looking down, they're shallow breasts, so they're going into a little shell and the voice follows.

所以现在我要演示一下第一圈的声音——当一切向后收缩时的声音。

So I'm going to do a voice of first circle when everything falls back.

所以声音不是向外传递，而是向内收缩。

So instead of the voice going out, he's falling back.

我们可以通过各种方式训练存在感，但我会要求人们完全按照我在声音训练中谈到的那样，向外看世界，并确保他们不处于第一圈状态，也就是那种退缩的状态。

We can work in all sorts of ways on presence, but I would ask people to do exactly what I've talked about in the voice and look out to the world and make sure that they're not in first circle, which is that pulling back.

我过去常称之为否定状态。

I used to call it denial.

我过去常把第二圈称为准备就绪的状态。

I used to call second circle a state of readiness.

所以，任何与我合作的运动员，我都能让他们立刻进入状态，因为他们知道必须全神贯注才能赢得比赛。

So any athlete I'd work with, I can get them immediately present because they know that they have to be present to win the game.

第三圈能量是指人们在虚张声势时，他们会向外推，你会看到那种第三者的能量让他们挺起胸膛。

Third circle is when people are bluffing and they push out and you'll see third person energy pushing out their chest.

他们声音太大，在派对上遇到时，他们的目光会越过你看向别处。

They're too loud that you meet at a party and they're looking beyond you.

他们并没有真正与你同在。

They're not with you.

因此，我们在沟通中所能做的最有力的事情，就是与某人、与一个群体保持在场的状态；当这种状态发生时，人们也与我们同在，我们就有了真正的交流。

So the most powerful thing we can do in communication is stay present with somebody, present with a group, and when it works and people become present with us, we have an exchange.

除非你和对方都真正处于在场状态，否则你永远无法向对方传达任何重要的事情。

You can't ever say anything important to somebody unless you're present and they're present.

所以我们每天都在练习保持在场的状态。

So we practice every day being present.

你可以通过静坐、深呼吸，注视房间另一端的某物，或想象自己擅长的某项活动，来意识到自己正处于在场状态。

And you can by just sitting, breathing to a point and looking at something across the room or imagine doing something that you do very well and you'll realize you're present.

如果你开车技术很好，那你就是在场的。

If you drive very well, you're present.

如果你是一个手艺人，你也是在场的。

If you a craftspeople are present.

没有投入你的在场感，你就做不出一张出色的桌子。

You don't make a great table without putting your presence into it.

我们可以对自己说：看，我刚刚向后收了脚跟，肩膀圆缩，胸骨塌陷，头部和呼吸变得非常浅，我已经从这个世界抽离了。

And we can physically say to ourselves, look, I've just pulled back on my heels, my shoulders have rounded, my sternum has collapsed, my head and my breath is very shallow, and I've just absented myself from the world.

我喜欢这种关于圆圈的说法，认为幸福的中间点在于拉与推之间。

I like this notion of the circles and that the happy medium is in between the pulling and the pushing.

在我看来，这始于觉察。

It seems to me that it starts with awareness.

你必须意识到自己此刻处于什么位置。

You have to have that awareness of where are you in that moment.

当然，不同的情绪和情境可能会让你从不同的地方开始。

And certainly different emotions, different situations might cause you to start in one place.

但一旦你有了这种觉察，你就能做出调整。

But once you have that awareness, you can move.

在我看来，我们可以通过关注身体来检视自己，身体会有一些外在信号，帮助我们回到更中立的状态。

And it sounds to me that we can check-in with our bodies, that there are physical tells of where we are to bring us more to that neutral place.

这关乎慷慨与好奇。

It's about generosity and curiosity.

如果你充满好奇且心怀慷慨，你通常就会处于当下。

If you're curious and you're generous, you're generally present.

你刚才说的非常重要的一点是，我们讨论的这种身体状态——无论是第一圈的退缩还是第三圈的向外推挤，都会抑制呼吸和声音——这阻碍了我们感知自身的存在。

Now the thing that you've said that's so important is that the physicality that we're talking about that stops the breath in the voice, either pulling away in first circle or pushing out in third, that stops us being aware of our presence.

它切断了我们与世界的联系。

It cuts us off from the world.

回想我们最初聊天的时候，那是一次非常愉快的初次交谈，你说的一些话让我印象深刻。

When you and I very first chatted, and it was a lovely first chat we had, you said something that really stuck with me.

你曾告诉我，你认为充分利用我们周围的空间对沟通至关重要。

You told me your thoughts on how important leveraging the space around us is for our communication.

我们大多数人认为沟通就是把我脑子里的东西放进你的脑子里，但我们进行沟通的空间以及我们如何利用这个空间可能真的非常重要。

Most of us think of communication as getting what I have in my head into your head, but the space in which we do it and how we leverage that space can be really important.

你能分享一些关于为什么我们应该关注沟通环境的见解吗？

Can you share some insights on why we should pay attention to our communication environment?

因为，我们谈论的是我们的物理能量，也就是我们周围的物理能量。

Because a, we're talking about our physical energy, which is a physical energy around us.

我们设计中的一个问题是我们没有三百六十度的视野。

We have a problem in our design is that we haven't got three sixty in sight.

所以我们必须感知周围的空间。

So we do have to feel around us.

所以当你与人交谈时，你必须意识到他们的空间和你的空间。

So when you're speaking to people, you have to be aware of their space and your space.

这也可以意味着确保你坐在一个每个人都能看到你的位置。

Now that could also be making sure that you sit in a place where everyone can see you.

这是一种简单的舞台技巧，但你必须感受到周围存在空间和呼吸，让每个人都能感到足够安全。

It's a simple stagecraft, but you have to have the sense that there's space and breath around you and everyone for them to feel safe enough.

我们谈论安全空间，但任何空间是否安全？而那位允许每个人拥有自己空间、让我们彼此都能看见并相互认可的领导者，是一位非常优秀的领导者，能够让人感到放松。

We talk about a safe space, whether any space is safe, but the leader who allows everyone their space and that we can all see each other and recognize each other is a very good leader and has a chance to make people feel at ease.

这涉及到我们周围的物理空间，然后我们进入舞台技巧的层面：站在哪里最好？

It's the physical space around us and then we get into stagecraft when what is the best place to stand?

最好的位置在哪里？

What is the best place?

你看到有人做主题演讲时站着，但实际上，如果有500人，有50个人因为位置不对而看不到他们。

You see people giving keynotes and they're standing and actually, if it's 500 people, 50 can't see them because they're not in the right place.

但这并不意味着你不能走动，你必须先建立一些东西，并在你的空间内营造一种安全感。

Now that doesn't mean to say you can't walk around, but you've got to establish things and you have to establish a safety in a way within your space.

我坐在哪里？

Where am I sitting?

我是在俯视你们吗？

Am I looking down at you?

我是在做这个吗？

Am I doing this?

我对老师们说，你们知道吗？大多数学生其实看不到你，而你却在纳闷他们为什么无聊？

You know, I say to teachers, do you know that most of the students can't see you and you're wondering why they're bored?

这些就是类似的问题。

So those are the sorts of things.

我们的身体存在本身就带有空间感，当有人未经允许进入这个空间时，可能会让人感到害怕。

So it's our physical presence which does have space and when somebody enters it without permission, it can be scary.

当我们处于第二圈层、保持自己的空间并彼此看见时，我们就处于平等状态。

And when we're in second circle with our space and we're seeing each other, we have equality.

第一圈的人，通过后退，他们未必是低人一等，但他们在传递一种低人一等的信号。

First circle people, by pulling back, they're not necessarily inferior, but they're signaling inferiority.

第三圈的人，他们扩张自己的空间，占用了太多空间。

Third circle people, they're pushing their space and they're taking up too much space.

他们在传递一种高人一等的信号。

They're signaling superiority.

因此，我们必须尊重彼此的空间，这样我们才能平等。

So we have to have an regard for each other's space because then we can be equal.

思考空间以及我们如何使用空间来传达信息，是非常重要的。

Thinking about how space and our use of space helps communicate things is really important.

我想到一个非常具体的例子。

I have a very particular instance that came to mind.

我曾辅导过一家家喻户晓的公司的高级领导者，他正在台上演讲。

I was coaching a very senior leader of a company everybody has heard of, and he was up on stage presenting.

他有一些非常重要的事情要说。

He had something very serious to say.

他们打算进行裁员。

They were going to do a reduction in force.

很多人将失去工作。

People were going to lose their jobs.

而他完全自发地——这并非事先排练过，因为我之前帮他打磨过内容——走下舞台，走进观众中传达这个消息。

And totally spontaneously, this was not rehearsed because I worked with him on his content, he stepped off the stage and walked into the audience to deliver the message.

尽管这个消息并不令人愉快，人们听到后也不开心，但感觉却完全不同。

And while the message was not pleasing, people were not happy to hear the news, it felt different.

当他走下舞台的那一刻，人与人之间建立了一种联系。

There was a connection that happened in that moment when he walked off the stage.

这并非虚伪或做作。

It was not inauthentic or disingenuine.

我认为他在那一刻确实是发自内心的。

I think he really felt that in that moment.

你把自己放在哪里，透露了很多信息。

Where you put yourself says a lot.

嗯，这是一个很好的例子，说明他意识到必须更贴近他们。

Well, that's a wonderful example of him realizing that he had to meet them closer.

我们必须思考这一点，并且需要避开那些让我们与观众保持距离的讲台和讲坛。

We have to think about it and and we need to avoid the lecterns and podiums that cause us to be back from the audience.

这会导致我们进入第三圈并戴上伪装。

Which takes causes us into third circle and masked.

我们变得伪装起来。

We we become masked.

我们将短暂休息一下，插播一条赞助商信息。

We're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

他们的支持使我们能够免费为您带来本期节目。

Their support allows us to bring you this episode free of charge.

在我家里，一些最棒的对话都发生在餐桌旁。

Some of the best conversations in my house happen around the dinner table.

对我来说，HelloFresh让这成为可能，即使生活看似忙碌。

And for me, HelloFresh makes that possible even when life seems full.

和很多人一样，我很忙。

Like a lot of people, I'm busy.

我的日程排得很满，但我仍然关心吃得好，而且我非常在意美味的食物和愉快的交谈。

My days are packed, but I still care about eating well, and I really care about yummy food and good conversation.

HelloFresh 帮助实现这一点，而不会让晚餐变成另一件让我压力山大的事情。

HelloFresh helps make that happen without turning dinner into another stressful thing for me to deal with.

每周，你可以从超过100种食谱中选择，包括高蛋白和地中海选项，食材既健康又美味，所有东西都准备就绪直接送达。

Each week, you can choose from over a 100 recipes, including high protein and Mediterranean options, with ingredients that feel good and taste great, and everything shows up ready to go.

在那些非常忙碌的日子里，它确实帮了大忙。

It's been a real help on really busy days.

对我来说，我最欣赏的是它能让我少操心后勤琐事，多关注真正重要的事情——美味的食物和共度的美好时光。

For me, what I appreciate most is that it helps me focus less on logistics and more on what matters, good food and good times together.

访问 hellofresh.com/thinkfast10fm 即可获得10份免费餐食外加一把免费的Zwillich刀具。

Go to hellofresh.com/thinkfast10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free Zwillich knife.

这相当于您的第三盒订单价值145美元。

That's a $145 value on your third box.

优惠数量有限，售完即止。

Offer valid while supplies last.

免费餐食将在首箱订单中抵扣。

Free meals applied at discount on first box.

仅限新订阅用户，具体因计划而异。

New subscribers only varies by plan.

帕茜，在结束之前，我想向我采访的每个人提三个问题。

Patsy, before we end, I like to ask three questions of everybody I interview.

第一个是我专门为你设计的，其他几个是所有人都类似的。

One, I create just for you and the others are similar across everybody.

你愿意接受吗？

Are you up for that?

好的。

Yep.

根据你丰富的经历，我确信你曾与许多在做各种事情时感到焦虑的人合作过，比如医生传达坏消息、重要演讲者、登台表演并承担从未有过的风险的演员。

So across your varied experiences, I am sure you have worked with many people who have anxiety around whatever they're doing, a doctor giving bad news, somebody giving a keynote that's really important, actors getting out on stage and taking risks that they haven't.

你能快速分享两三个方法，帮助人们在这些情况下对自己的沟通能力更有信心吗？

Do you have two or three things that you can quickly share that help people feel more confident in their communication in those circumstances?

第一点，我们已经讨论过了。

Number one, we've talked about it.

试着站起来，感受地面，放松肩膀，在进入空间之前，缓慢而深沉地呼吸。

Try to stand up, feel the floor, release your shoulders, and before you go into the space, breathe deeply and slowly.

保持住这个状态。

Keep that going.

感受那种呼吸的悬停，就像我在你投球前那一瞬间吸气。

Feel the suspension of the breath, which is I breathe in just that moment before you throw a ball.

这听起来可能有些反直觉。

And this sounds counter intuitive.

当你进入任何空间时，直视人们的眼睛。你看得越多，就会越平静。

As you go into any space, look at people in the eyes of The more you look, the calmer you get.

你看着人们，呼吸，从容不迫，不要一开始就匆忙，匆忙会引发更多肾上腺素，让你更加恐慌。

You look at people, you breathe, you take your time, you don't rush to begin with, the rushing will kick off even more adrenaline and you'll get more panicked.

如果你在进入一个场合前有机会，甚至如果你已经在场内，可以通过想一想：我先停一下，深呼吸一次来重新调整自己。

If you have a chance before you go into a space or even if you're in a space, you can reset by thinking, I'll just stop for a moment and take another breath.

我向你保证，这会有帮助的。

I promise you, it will help.

我无法消除紧张感，但紧张不会变得让人无法承受。

I can't get rid of the nerves, but the nerves don't become debilitating.

我认为焦虑和紧张实际上能帮助你。

And I think the anxiety and nervousness can actually help you.

它能给你能量和专注力，但我很喜欢这种通过深呼吸和眼神交流建立连接的身体方式。

It gives you energy and focus, but I like this idea of the physicality of the deep breath and then the connecting through eye contact.

虽然听起来反直觉，但对我而言效果非常好，因为我意识到这些人都是普通人，他们只是想存在，并从我所说的内容中获得一些价值。

While I agree sounds counterintuitive, for me it works really well because I realize these are normal people who just wanna be and get some value from what I have to say.

我还会说，多关注观众，而不是关注自己。

And then I will also say worry about the audience rather than yourself.

你可以担心他们是否理解你，而他们会把这份理解回馈给你。

A relief that you can worry about them understanding you, and they'll give it back.

在生活中你越是慷慨大方，你得到的回报就越多。

The more generous you are in life in these ways, the more you get back.

感谢您慷慨的回答，并为我们提供了非常具体可行的建议。

Thank you for that generous answer and for giving us very specific actionable ideas.

第二个问题，你已经和这么多人合作过。

Question number two, and you have worked with so many.

我会非常好奇。

I'll be very curious.

你欣赏的沟通者是谁？为什么？

Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

我想到的是米歇尔·奥巴马。

Michelle Obama comes to mind.

她从容不迫。

She takes her time.

她在倾听。

She's listening.

她与你同在。

She's with you.

她与观众同在，而且她并不害怕不被喜欢。

She's with the audience, and she's not frightened of being disliked.

最让人反感的事情之一就是人们总想时刻被喜欢。

One of the most off putting things is people wanting to be liked all the time.

最后一个问题要问你了，佩茜。

Final question for you, Patsy.

成功沟通秘诀的前三个要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

以具体的方式准备，练习它，知道它不会逐字照搬，多加练习。

Prepare an embodied way, practice it, knowing that it won't be verbatim, practice.

再者，就是你带入这个空间的好奇心和慷慨精神。

And again, it's the curiosity and the generosity that you bring into the space.

多么美妙的秘诀啊。

How wonderful of a recipe.

这关乎准备、练习、带着你的慷慨与好奇全然在场，这是一个绝佳的配方和宝贵的建议。

It's about preparing, practicing, being present with your generosity and curiosity, a great recipe and great advice.

帕茜，非常感谢你。

And Patsy, thank you so much.

你出色地做到了慷慨相助，不仅帮助我们唤醒了自己的声音和存在感，更让我们意识到沟通的新方式，真正地与他人建立连接。

You have done an amazing job of being very generous in helping us not only awaken our voices and our presence, but awaken our minds to new ways of communicating and really connecting with others.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这完全是我的荣幸。

Absolutely my pleasure.

感谢您收听《快速思考，明智表达》播客的又一期节目。

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

如需了解更多关于非语言存在感的内容，请收听第137期与达娜·卡尼的对话。

To learn more about nonverbal presence, please listen to episode one thirty seven with Dana Carney.

本集由凯瑟琳·里德、瑞安·卡马斯和我，马特·阿布拉姆斯制作。

This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

我们的音乐来自Floyd Wonder，特别感谢Podium播客公司。

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

请在YouTube以及您收听播客的任何平台找到我们。

Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

别忘了订阅并为我们评分。

Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

同时，请在LinkedIn和Instagram关注我们，并访问fastersmarter.io获取深度视频、英语学习内容和我们的通讯。

Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter.

请考虑我们的高级服务，获取更长的深度思考集、向Matt提问等更多内容，详情请访问fastersmarter.io/premium。

Please consider our premium offering for extended deep thinks episodes, ask Matt anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.

嗨。

Hi.

我是Matt。

Matt here.

我真不敢相信，这个月是《Think Fast, Talk Smart》开播六周年。

I can't believe that this month is the six year anniversary of Think Fast Talk Smart's launch.