324. 重新思考：定义我们希望AI将我们带向何方

嗨。

Hi.

我是马特。

Matt here.

为了确保你不会错过《快速思考，流利说话》的任何一集，请在你收听或观看我们节目的任何平台上关注或订阅。

To make sure you never miss an episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, follow or subscribe wherever you listen or watch our show.

也请考虑把它分享给你的朋友、家人和同事。

Please consider sharing it with your friends, family, and coworkers.

最后，如果方便的话，给我们一个五星好评和正面评价吧。

Finally, consider giving us a five star rating and positive review.

这样能帮助更多人发现我们的节目。

This helps more people find our show.

接下来是赞助商时间。

Now a word from our sponsors.

他们的支持承担了制作成本，让我们能免费为你带来这一集。

Their support covers the cost of production, allowing us to bring you this episode free of charge.

经营小企业，每一次招聘都很关键。

Running a small business means every hire matters.

招错人可能会浪费你的时间、金钱，还会拖慢进度。

A bad hire can cost you time, money, and momentum.

那招对人呢？

A good hire?

他们能帮你把生意做大。

They can help grow your business.

但找到优秀的人才并不容易，尤其是当你没有时间或资源去翻遍一堆简历来找到合适的人选时。

But finding great talent isn't easy, especially when you don't have the time or resources to sift through piles of resumes to find the right fit.

所以LinkedIn推出了Hiring Pro，你的新招聘伙伴，它会帮你筛选候选人。

That's why LinkedIn built Hiring Pro, your new hiring partner that screens candidates for you.

在Think Fast Talk Smart，我们非常忙碌，节奏也很快。

At Think Fast Talk Smart, we are super busy and move super fast.

如果我们在招聘上犯了错，代价会很大；而当我们招到合适的人，就能加速推进所有工作。

If we make a mistake in hiring, it has huge costs, and when we land a good hire, we can accelerate all that we do.

有了Hiring Pro，你可以放心招聘，知道你能找到最适合你需求的人才。

With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence, knowing you're getting the best talent for your needs.

事实上，使用LinkedIn招聘的人，在十二个月内需要重新招聘的可能性比其他主要竞争对手低24%。

In fact, those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within twelve months compared to other leading competitors.

加入使用LinkedIn招聘的270万家小企业吧。

Join the 2,700,000 small businesses using LinkedIn to hire.

现在就去linkedin.com/fast免费发布你的职位吧。

Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com/fast.

适用条款和条件。

Terms and conditions apply.

人工智能正在改变我们工作、思考和沟通的方式。

AI is changing how we work, think, and communicate.

随着这些工具变得越来越强大，如何有效使用它们比以往任何时候都重要。

As these tools become more capable, knowing how to use them effectively matters more than ever.

我是Matt Abrahams，我在斯坦福商学院教授战略沟通。

I'm Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，聪明说话》播客的这期《再思考》节目。

Welcome to this Rethinks episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

我们将打开档案，重温我与拉斯·奥特曼教授的对话。

We're opening up the vault to revisit my conversation with professor Russ Altman.

请收听我们探讨人工智能如何帮助我们更清晰地沟通、更敏锐地思考、更有效地解决问题，同时提醒我们为什么人类的判断力、好奇心和连接依然至关重要。

Listen in as we explore how AI can help us communicate more clearly, sharpen our thinking, and solve problems more effectively while reminding us why human judgment, curiosity, and connection remain essential.

沟通中，连接以及解释我们身处何处、要去往何方的能力，是成功的关键。

Connection and the ability to explain where we are and where we need to go is critical for success in communication.

我是马特·亚伯拉罕，在斯坦福商学院教授战略沟通。

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，聪明说话》播客。

Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天，我很高兴能与拉斯·奥特曼对话。

Today, I'm excited to speak with Russ Altman.

拉斯是斯坦福大学生物工程学教授。

Russ is a professor of bioengineering at Stanford University.

他的主要研究兴趣是将人工智能和数据科学应用于医学相关的问题。

His primary research interests are in the application of AI and data science to problems relevant to medicine.

罗斯还是斯坦福工程学院《万物未来》播客的主持人。

Russ is also the host of Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything podcast.

欢迎你，罗斯。

Welcome, Russ.

我是你播客的忠实粉丝，今天早些时候有机会作为嘉宾上你的节目，我真的很高兴。

I'm a big fan of your podcast and really enjoyed the opportunity we had earlier today where I was a guest on your show.

谢谢，非常感谢。

Thanks Thanks so much.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

我对这个播客也充满热情，这真让人兴奋。

I share enthusiasm for this podcast, and it's kind of a thrill.

这大概是我第一次作为嘉宾参加播客，没有比这更好的了。

I think it might be my first podcast as a guest, and it couldn't be a better one.

哦，好的，谢谢你，我对我们接下来要做的事情感到兴奋。

Oh, well, thank you, and I'm excited for the what we're about to do.

你准备好开始了吗？

You ready to get started?

是的。

Yes.

太好了。

Excellent.

你的每一集播客标题都以“未来”开头。

Each of your podcast episode titles starts with The Future Of.

所以让我先问问你对通信未来的看法，尤其是AI在其中扮演的角色。

So let me start by asking you for your thoughts on the future of communication, especially how AI plays out in it.

首先，我很高兴你提到我邀请你上我的播客，因为答案是，你告诉了我通信的未来，但我在我们聊天之前其实已经思考过这个问题了。

So first of all, I'm glad you mentioned that I had you on my podcast because the answer is you told me the future of communication, but I actually thought about it before we chatted.

我是个AI爱好者。

I'm an AI enthusiast.

我在研究中使用人工智能。

I use AI in my research.

我是斯坦福大学以人为本人工智能研究所的成员。

I'm part of the Human Centered AI Institute at Stanford.

总的来说，人工智能暴露了我们社会中许多隐藏的问题。

AI in general has exposed lots of things that were hidden in our society.

很多人听到偏见和不公平，这确实是人工智能的一个问题。

So a lot of people hear about bias and unfairness, and that is a problem with AI.

但另一方面，这个问题之前就存在。

On the other hand, it was a problem before.

从某种程度上说，我们需要感谢人工智能揭露了这些不公平，给了我们一个可以努力改进的方向。

And in some ways, we need to give AI credit for exposing the unfairness and giving us something that we can work on to try to improve.

我提到这个的原因是，我认为在沟通方面，某种程度上答案也是一样的。

And the reason I mentioned this is I think for communication, in some ways, it's the same answer.

如果你担心像ChatGPT这样的工具会取代你，我觉得你需要想想，我沟通的目的是什么？

If you're worried that a ChatGPT type tool can replace you, I think you need to think about why am I communicating?

我想表达什么？

What am I trying to say?

我说的是不是真心话？

Am I being authentic?

我有没有真正想传达的信息？

Do I have a message?

因为如果这些都没问题，那其实根本不用担心。

Because really, if those things are true, it shouldn't be a problem.

它反而能帮你把信息放大、变得更好。

It should actually just help you amplify and improve your message.

所以我觉得现在这个时代，大家真的需要认真问问自己，为什么要沟通，以及怎么沟通。

So I think that we're at a time now where people have to ask hard questions about why they're communicating and how they communicate.

而且我觉得AI把这些原本藏在暗处的问题都摆到了台面上。

And I think that the AI is bringing these issues to the fore that were kind of insidiously in the background.

所以你看，我是个AI乐观派，我觉得这会带来好处。

So you can see I'm an AI optimist, and I think this will help.

我也觉得AI能给沟通带来很多价值，而且我真的很喜欢你的回答。

I also think AI can bring a lot of value to communication, and and I really like your response.

需要担心的是，我有没有一个明确的目标？

The the thing to worry about is, do I have a clear goal?

我知不知道什么内容重要，以及怎么把它组织得更有帮助？

Do I know what is important to say, and how can I craft it in a way to be helpful?

我觉得AI可以在这方面当个助手。

And I think think AI can be an assistant in it.

比如，我有很多母语不是英语的学生。

For example, I have many non native speaking students.

AI是个很棒的工具，能帮他们学习一些口语化的表达，还有其他不同的说法。

AI is a wonderful tool to help them learn some of the vernacular and learn other options for ways of saying things.

有意思的是，当你说‘请用八年级学生的水平解释’或者‘用高中生的水平解释’时，效果特别好。

It is interesting how good it is when you say, please explain this at the level of an eighth grader or at the level of a high school student.

我觉得这是我们都能提升的地方，因为了解你的受众，然后确保用合适的水平去传达，这始终是个挑战。

And I think that's something we all can get better at because understanding who your audience is and then making sure you're delivering at the right level is always a challenge.

这似乎是它比较擅长的事情之一。

That seems to be one thing that it's kind of good at.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

而且你还可以用它来标出那些别人可能听不懂的行话和术语。

And you can actually use it to flag jargon in terms that others might not understand.

你提到过你在沟通中会用到它。

You mentioned that you happen to use it in your communication.

你介意分享一下你具体是怎么用的吗？

Do you mind sharing some of the ways you use it?

我最喜欢的一个例子，如果我可以讲的话，当然可以。

My favorite story, if I may Sure.

是我写了一份拨款申请，然后我把那份一页的摘要放进了大语言模型里。

Was I had written a grant proposal, And I ran the one page summary of the grant through the, large language model.

我说，请总结一下这份我准备提交给美国国立卫生研究院申请研究经费的摘要的优点和缺点。

And I said, please summarize the strengths and weaknesses of this summary of my research that I'm about to submit to the National Institutes of Health for for research dollars.

它返回的结果里，确实有一些挺不错的优点和缺点。

And it came back, and it had a few, you know, pretty good positives and negatives.

但我最喜欢的缺点是它说，你似乎过于依赖过去的成就了。

But my favorite negative is it said, you seem to be leaning on prior accomplishments too heavily.

它说得完全对。

And it was absolutely right.

所以我就把它当作一个“人前筛选”工具，在去找同事之前先用它，哪怕是那些我信任的同事。

So I've used it as, like, as a prehuman screen before I go to my colleagues even, even my trusted colleagues.

先看看大语言模型怎么说。

Let's just see what the LLM has to say.

也许我会先改一改，然后再拿给走廊那头的朋友看看。

Maybe I'll fix it up and then give it to my buddy down the hall to take a look.

它有没有建议你需要接受一些关于自恋的治疗，还是说没有？

Did it recommend you need to see some therapy about some narcissism, or no?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

确实没有。

It didn't.

这不用说也知道，但如果我问了，我肯定它也会加入这个合唱。

That goes without statement, but if I had asked, I'm sure it would have added to the chorus.

我想再深入聊聊关于资助申请这个话题。

I wanna pull this thread a little farther about grants.

你在申请资助方面非常成功，为你做的项目筹集到了很多资金。

You have been incredibly successful at raising money for the projects that you do through the grants that you apply for.

我们很多听众需要写提案，向老板或外部组织申请资金。

Many of our listeners have to write proposals asking for funding from their bosses or from external organizations.

在起草提案和资助申请方面，你有什么建议？

What guidance do you have when it comes to drafting proposals and grants?

我对这个话题非常有热情。

I am passionate about this.

一般来说，你首先要做的就是了解你请求的对象——无论是个人还是机构——他们的使命是什么。

In general, the first thing you have to do is understand the mission of the person or institution to whom you are making a request.

因为如果你没有直接命中他们的使命，那就没戏了。

Because if you don't hit that mission on directly, it's end of the game.

既然这样，你需要有一个大问题，你想成为解决它的一部分，然后还有一个具体的问题，你实际上要提供解决方案。

Given that you need to have a big problem that you wanna be part of the solution of, and then a focused problem that you are actually gonna provide the solution to.

你必须证明这个具体问题还没有被解决。

You have to show that that sub problem is not solved.

然后你得说明，有一个机会，你——也许还有别人，但肯定是你——抓住了。

Then you have to make the case that there's an opportunity that you and maybe others, but certainly you have.

接着，你要把它归结为三到五个行动要点，最后再总结一下完成后的世界状态。

And then you have to boil it down to three to five action items followed by a summary of the state of the world when you're done.

我相信这个公式可以适用于各种场合，从申请联邦资助机构的拨款，到求婚，都行。

And I believe that that formula can be used from everything from a grant to a federal funding agency to a marriage proposal.

我在各种不同的场合都试过，它确实是任何提案的基本结构。

And I've tried it in all different settings, and it really is the fundamental structure of any proposal.

等我们关掉麦克风后，我想听听你向你妻子求婚时用的那个未来状态，不过——

When when we turn off the microphones, I wanna hear the future state that you use to propose to your wife, but

我们来看看这个。

we'll look at this.

不。

No.

这个简单。

It's an easy one.

亲爱的，你以后会比现在更幸福。

Honey, you will be happier then than you are now.

太好了。

Excellent.

所以，我觉得你刚才说的关键点，不仅仅是你要了解你的听众以及什么对他们重要，这一点无论是对提案、推销还是演示都至关重要。

So it it the key takeaway from what you just said, I think, is not only do you have to know your audience and what's important for them, and that's critical regardless if it's a proposal or a pitch or a presentation.

但是，这种从我们现在的位置到我们要去的地方，从起点到终点的概念，在推销、演示中非常重要，听起来在各种提案中也是如此。

But this notion of where we are to where we're going to, from to to, is so important in pitches, in presentations, and it sounds like in types of proposals.

我喜欢这种说法，就是先说，嘿。

And I like this notion of saying, hey.

有一个更大的问题，我要专注于其中的一部分，而我或我的团队的独特价值就是帮助解决这个问题。

There's this larger problem, and I'm gonna focus on this subset, and my unique value or my team's unique value is what's gonna help us solve it.

这是具体的事情，然后这是未来的样子。

Here's the specific things, and then here's what the world's gonna look like.

谢谢你听我讲，Matt。

Thank you for listening, Matt.

你刚才做的这件事，我也想问问你。

What you did there is something I'd also like to ask you about.

你在学术领域的工作非常复杂，非常细致，但你却非常擅长解释，让那些复杂的信息变得容易理解。

Your work in the academic world is incredibly complex, is incredibly detailed, and yet you're so good at explaining and making that complex information accessible.

你是怎么做到的呢？

What are your thoughts on how to do that?

我知道你是有策略地做的。

I know you do it strategically.

我记得我们之前聊过，你喜欢用白板。

I know from the conversation you and I had earlier, you like using the whiteboard.

当你处理复杂信息，想让那些不太懂的人更容易理解，但又不想降低深度时，你会考虑哪些方面？

What are the things you think about when you take complex information to make it more accessible to people who just don't know as much without dumbing it down?

我觉得你很清楚这一点。

I think that you know this very well.

人们记住的是故事，人们喜欢的是故事。

Stories are what people remember, stories of what people like.

这其实挺让人沮丧的，因为我的工作有一部分是统计学，而统计学其实比故事要严谨得多。

It's actually frustrating because part of my work is statistics, and statistics is really much more robust than a story.

我们常说，你可能有一个很好的轶事，但它不能替代大量的实际数据。

We always say you might have one good anecdote, and that doesn't replace lots of actual data.

但我担心，有时候，很多时候，一个好的故事确实能代表很多数据，因为它对人脑太有吸引力了。

But I'm afraid that sometimes, a lot of times, a good story does stand in for a lot of data because it's so compelling to the human mind.

所以我们总是在寻找故事。

So we're always looking for stories.

类比是关键的，既能暂停对话让大家跟上，也能说，好的。

Analogy is a key part of both stopping the conversation and letting people catch up, but also saying, okay.

等一下。

Wait a minute.

让我重新表述你刚才说的，但把它映射到日常情境，比如去购物。

Let me rephrase what you just said, but let me map it onto an everyday situation like going shopping.

所以你的意思是，互联网及其运作方式就像一个非常复杂的邮件系统之类的。

So you're telling me that the Internet and the way it works is like a very complicated mail system or whatever.

那么，你能听懂专家在说什么，并找到一个日常生活中的类比吗？

And so can you listen to what the expert is saying and see an analogy to an everyday life thing?

你在检查自己的理解，但万一你对了，你也在帮助所有听众或读者理解刚才所说的内容。

And you're checking your understanding, but on the chance that you're right, you're also helping the entire listenership or readership understand what was just said.

所以这很重要。

So that's important.

与此相关，你总是对术语保持警觉，我相信你也是这么做的。

Related to that, you're always have an antenna up for jargon, and you I'm sure you do this too.

你得愿意把对话停下来，说，哎，你刚才说的NIH是什么？

You have to be willing to stop the conversation cold and say, oh, you just said NIH.

那是美国国立卫生研究院。

That's the National Institutes of Health.

他们资助美国的研究。

They fund research in America.

所以我一直在做的，就是竖起小天线，留意那些需要解释的词，或者大家可能不熟悉的缩写。

And so part of what I'm doing always is a little antenna listening for words that need to be defined or abbreviations that might not be commonly understood.

所以我觉得就是类比、故事，然后调整说话的水平。

So I think analogy, stories, and then adjusting the levels.

有时候你跟人聊天，你得实时给对方信号，说我们现在聊的这个深度是博士级别的，但我现在面向的是高中生、大学生。

So sometimes when you're talking with someone, you just have to send them signals in real time that we are talking at a level that requires a PhD, and I'm going for high school, college students here.

然后就是练习。

And then it's practice.

我很喜欢这个播客和你的书的一点是，你不会说要么你懂了，要么你不懂。

And one of the great thing I love both about this podcast and about your book is you don't say that you either got it or you don't got it.

这些都是可以练习和学会的。

All of this can be practiced and learned.

没错。

Absolutely.

这是我想强调的一个重要观点，你正在帮助我们所有人学习这一点。

That's a big point I like to try to make, and you are helping all of us learn this.

我觉得还有一点可能也有帮助，我很想听听你的看法，就是你可以提前做一些准备工作。

Something that I think can also be helpful, and I'd love to get your input on this, is there's work you can do in advance.

你可以提前储备一些故事，或者想想可能用得上的类比。

So you can actually stockpile some stories or think about some potential analogies that might work.

不一定非得当场发挥。

It doesn't all have to happen in the moment.

你可以随时调用这些素材。

You can pull them in.

同时，你还可以提前做一些准备工作，比如让听众有所准备。

And at the same time, some prework you can do is you can prepare the audience.

比如在会议邀请里，你可以说，我们会讨论这类概念。

So in a meeting invite, for example, you could say, and we're gonna be talking about concepts like this.

这样大家来的时候就有准备了，我觉得这会让你的工作更轻松。

So people come in primed, which I think makes your job easier.

你对这种提前准备有什么看法？

What are your thoughts on that kind of prework?

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

我本来还记了一点，但刚才觉得自己说得太久了。

I had one more point written down, and I just had decided that I had talked too long a a second ago.

不过我说过，要预判难点，并且承认这些难点确实难。

But I said anticipate the tough spots and validate that they're tough.

比如对听众说，这个人讲的是量子物理。

So say to the audience, this guy's talking about quantum physics.

这确实很难。

This is hard stuff.

接下来我们打算一起想办法应对。

Here's how we're gonna try to manage through it together.

所以我想说，你说得完全对。

So I just wanna say that you're absolutely right.

我觉得准备面试、准备文档或者任何沟通的关键，就是提前预判那些难点和复杂概念，然后对自己说，好的。

I think the key idea of prep for an interview or for creating a document or or any kind of communication is anticipating the tough moments, the tough concepts, and saying, okay.

我打算用这个类比来试试。

I'm gonna try to fly with this analogy.

我觉得这样应该行得通。

I think this'll work.

我觉得这样会更容易理解，也更有共鸣。

I think it'll make it more accessible, more relatable.

这也是做功课的一部分。

And that's part of doing your homework.

而且在我跟你或任何人交谈之前，我基本上会花前一晚的时间在网上搜你的资料，看看你之前说过什么、做过什么。

And before I talk to you, before I talk to anybody, I spend the night before basically Google stalking you, looking at what have you said, what have you done?

哎呀。

Uh-oh.

一部分原因是为了准备一些应急话题，以防你不太愿意说话。

Part of it is so I can have emergency topics to talk about if it turns out that you're, you know, reticent to speak.

不过你倒是没这个问题。

That wasn't a problem.

但另一方面，我也在想，他可能会说些什么让人意外或担心的话，我又该怎么应对。

However, the other thing was, what might he say that might be surprising or troubling, and how am I gonna manage that?

然后你就带着信心进去，觉得不管遇到什么情况，我们都准备好了。

And then you go in with this confidence that kinda whatever comes down the pike, we're ready for it.

这些准备你可能用得上，也可能用不上，但有了它们，你就会有一种准备充分的感觉。

And you may use them or you may not use them, but having them just has you this sense of preparedness.

这能让你更自信、更专注，因为你不用老想着接下来会发生什么。

And that helps you be confident and more present because you're not reaching ahead thinking what's coming.

你在准备播客提问方面做得很好。

You do a good job of preparing to ask the questions you ask on your podcast.

提前做好准备，虽然我知道我是在建议大家去网上搜别人的信息，但我确实觉得做足功课很重要。

That preparation in advance, although I know know that I'm recommending everybody cyber stalk people, but I do think it's important to do your homework.

对于如何提出能够真正帮助聚焦和引导沟通与对话的问题，你有什么建议？

What advice do you have for asking questions that can really help focus and guide communication and conversations?

问题的具体性是关键。

Specificity in the question is key.

在我看来，具体性在世界上很重要。

Specificity rules in the world, in my opinion.

人们想听具体的故事，而不是泛泛而谈，他们也希望听到具体的问题。

People wanna hear stories that are specific, not general, and you they wanna hear questions that are specific.

但我的第二个建议能稍微减轻一些压力，因为我认为后续问题可以说比最初的问题更重要。

But then my second tip helps take up a little bit of pressure off because I think the follow-up question is arguably more important than the initial question.

因为最初的问题能让听众和嘉宾，如果我们说的是播客的话，对。

Because the initial question gets the listeners and the guests, if we're talking about a podcast Sure.

进入一个特定的空间。

Into a certain space.

他们可能会一边思考一边支支吾吾，但随后会说出一些内容。

And there might be some hemming and hawing as they gather their thoughts, but then they say something.

现在他们热身好了，听众也热身好了。

Now they're warmed up, and their audience is warmed up.

这时你就可以提出一个跟进问题，那可能是关键的问题。

And now you can come up with a follow-up question that might be the meaty question.

我听过一些非常擅长采访的人，比如莱特曼、约翰尼·卡森。

And I've heard people who are very good who do who interviews, you know, Letterman, Johnny Carson.

如果你看他们的节目，他们的跟进问题总是非常好。

If you watch, their follow ups were always very good.

除了具体和愿意提出跟进问题之外，提问的技巧不仅仅适用于采访者。

In addition to being specific and being open to asking follow-up questions, the use of questions isn't just for people who do interviewing.

在会议中，通过提出聚焦的具体问题来给予反馈，你可以非常高效。

You can be very effective in a meeting and giving feedback through asking focus specific questions.

而且某种程度上，我觉得人们更容易接受这种方式，而不是我直接给你一个陈述性的结论。

And in some ways, I think people receive that in a more open way than if I give you some declarative statement.

我觉得你说得完全对。

I think you're absolutely right.

我注意到我的博士生们，在他们准备好毕业之前，最后才学会的技能就是在研讨会后回答问题，因为他们一开始觉得提问是一种攻击。

I notice that my PhD students, the last thing that they get good at before they're ready to launch and graduate is answering questions after a seminar because they come to it thinking that questions are an attack.

所以他们就会变得很防备。

And so they get defensive.

他们的回答几乎让人不舒服。

Their answers are almost off putting.

所以你需要指导他们说，你要把每个问题都当成一份小礼物。

And so there's a mentorship that you do to say, you need to consider every question as a little gift.

这是一份礼物。

It's a gift.

它表明我听了你刚才说的话。

It shows I listened to what you just said.

我已经消化了。

I've processed it.

现在我真的想和你聊一聊。

And now I actually wanna have a conversation with you.

这已经是最好的情况了。

That, like, it doesn't get any better than that.

所以，是的，问题可以很有力量。

So, yes, questions can be powerful.

它们可以表达感谢。

They can say thank you.

它们可以说我听到了你的话，而且它们可以说，我对此有一点看法，甚至不用直接说出来。

They can say I heard you, and they can say, and I have a little bit of an opinion here without even saying it as I have a little bit of an opinion here.

把问题看作机会而不是威胁和挑战，这是一个根本的心态转变。我很高兴你花时间帮助学生达到这种状态，因为这是本能反应。

Seeing questions as opportunities rather than threats and challenges is a fundamental mindset shift, and I love that you spend time with your students helping them get there because it's instinctual.

当有人提出问题时，我们会变得防御。

When somebody comes up with a question, we get defensive.

但如果我们能把它看作一个连接、学习和合作的机会，我觉得那真是太棒了。

But if we can see it as an opportunity to connect, to learn, to collaborate, I think is wonderful.

我最好的朋友是个体育记者，但更重要的是，他是个新闻记者。他特别擅长用那种非常含蓄、漂亮的问题来表达观点，根本不需要再追问或者告诉你他真正的想法，因为从他的问题里就能看出他是个多棒的记者，这全靠他的这个本事。

My best friend is a sports writer, but really more importantly, he's a journalist, and he's famous for making his points with these very understated, beautiful questions where he doesn't even have to follow-up and tell you what he really thinks because it's obvious from his question what a great journalist he is because of this skill.

我们有一整期节目是和黛博拉·希夫林聊怎么提出好问题的。

We had a whole episode with Deborah Shiffrin on how to ask good questions.

她说要停顿。

She said to pause.

就是问完问题之后，停顿一下。

So after you ask the question, pause.

然后等对方回答完之后，再停顿更久一点，因为会有更多内容冒出来。

And after the person answers, pause even longer because more comes out.

我想换个话题，聊聊你擅长的另一个领域。

I'd love to move to another area where you are an expert.

你研究的是非常复杂的课题，同时你也在非常复杂的团队里工作。

You work on highly complex topics, but you also work in highly complex teams.

在努力避免破坏性冲突、重复劳动和浪费时间的同时，你有哪些最佳实践来促进创造力和协作？

What best practices do you use to foster creativity and collaboration while trying to avoid destructive conflict and repetitive actions and wastes of time.

现在已经很清楚了，团队科学在很多方面都是最有效也最令人兴奋的。

It has become clear that team science is the most effective and is the most exciting in many ways.

你必须理解并认可合作者的回报和动机，因为它们很可能和你自己的不一样。

You must understand and acknowledge the rewards and motivations of your collaborators because they're unlikely to be identical to your own.

如果你不把这些说清楚，或者更糟，根本不理解，那只会浪费大量精力和口舌。

And if you leave that unstated or worse, not understood, it's just a recipe for a lot of wasted energy and wasted words.

这就引出了第二点，你必须建立人际关系，这种关系要独立于科学或商业合作之外。

And that leads to number two, which is you have to build the relationship, the human relationship separate from the scientific or business collaboration.

但这确实有点麻烦，因为这意味着你得和他们一起吃午饭，也许你并不想这么做。

But that time, which is kind of a pain in neck because it means you have to have lunch with them, and maybe you don't wanna have them.

也许你只想花五分钟匆匆塞点食物，因为你很忙。

Maybe you wanna just take five minutes to shove food down your throat because you're busy.

但花时间建立这种关系，回报是巨大的。

But the time to build that relationship pays off in spades.

所以这两件事是首要的。

So those two things come first.

然后我觉得，多样性和团队合作，现在有确凿的证据表明，如果每个人都跟你长得一样、说话一样，接受同样的训练，有同样的观点和同样的目标，那并不是打造最佳团队的秘诀。

Then you have to I think diversity and teamwork has become there's now literal evidence that if everybody looks and sounds like you and has the same training and the same perspective and the same goals, that is not the recipe for the best team.

所以你必须认真审视一下，你邀请了哪些人加入这个团队。

So you have to take a hard look at who you've invited to the room.

如果你真的够勇敢、够有魄力，你会说，这是个不错的团队，但这不是适合这个项目的团队。

And if you're really brave and courageous, you will say, this is a good group, but this is not the right group for this project.

我们要么需要增加人手，要么我需要做一些调整。

And we either need to add to it or I need to make some substitutions.

接下来就是关于角色和职责的问题。

And then it's about, roles and responsibilities.

在建立了关系、理解了激励机制、并且团队具备多样性之后，现在你终于可以说，好了。

And with the relationship in place and with an understanding of the reward systems and with a diversity, now you can say, finally, okay.

这就是我们要做的事情。

Here's what we're trying to do.

我们打算怎么分解任务，怎么分配角色和职责，让大家觉得自己是一个运转良好的团队的一部分？

How are we gonna break this down, and how are we gonna do roles and responsibilities so that people feel like they're part of a team that is functioning?

然后还要建立正式和非正式的沟通机制，并且让大家明白这些机制。

And then having mechanisms for both formal and informal communication in place and understood.

这个回答内容很丰富。

A lot of richness in that answer.

抱歉。

Sorry.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

没事，都挺好的。

It's all it's all good.

首先必须在目标和期望上达成一致，这一点非常关键。

The fact that you first have to get alignment on goals and expectations is critical.

建立这些关系，然后才能实现你所说的很多事情。

Forming those relationships that which then allow much of what you've said.

我还想强调一下多样性这一点。

And I will just put an exclamation point on this notion of diversity.

观点、经验和目标的多样性带来了丰富性，但也要求你必须明确角色、职责和沟通方式，因为如果人们有这些差异，他们也会带来不同的沟通方式。

Diversity of opinions and experience and goals is what brings around the richness, but also requires that you have to define the roles, responsibilities, and ways of communicating, because if people have those differences, they bring that different way of communicating too.

我想深入探讨一下我提问时特别提到的一个方面。

I wanna drill down on one aspect that I was very specific in the question I asked.

我说的是，避免破坏性冲突。

I said, avoiding destructive conflict.

我知道在你做的工作中，鼓励一些分歧和冲突实际上有助于实现目标。

I know in the work you do that encouraging some disagreement and conflict is actually helpful to achieving the goals.

你是怎么把握这个平衡的？

How do you thread that needle?

在我生活中，这个问题几乎每周都会出现，因为实验室里所有的学生和博士后每周轮流做我们所说的组会。

Where it comes up in my life literally every week is that all the students and postdocs in the lab take turns every week giving what we call a group meeting.

这是一个关于他们研究进展的汇报。

It's a it's a research and progress talk about how they're going.

那应该是什么样子的呢？

So what's supposed to happen?

理想情况下，我们应该给予支持。

What's supposed to happen is we're supposed to be supportive.

我们希望他们感到自在，但他们也应该为可能不友善的听众做准备，比如科学界的同行可能会很挑剔。

We wanted them to feel comfortable, but they're supposed to be practicing for an audience that may be hostile, like scientific colleagues can be hostile.

所以作为团队负责人，我得想办法安排，让他们每天面对的人提出最难的科研和技术问题，但又不会导致环境变得有毒、缺乏信任，或者让大家说不想做组会汇报了。

And so I, as the leader of the group, have to figure out how do I set this up so that they are getting the hardest questions, scientific, technical questions from these people that they sit with every day, but it doesn't lead to a toxic environment, lack of trust, and people saying, don't wanna give my group meeting.

我不信任这个团队。

I don't trust this group.

所以我得安排好，让他们能够做汇报。

So I have to set it up so that they can present.

我可以问一些尖锐的问题。

I can ask hard questions.

但我们会营造一种文化，感谢他们的演讲，承认他们发现的难题确实很难，并感谢他们提出的解决方案。

But then we have a culture of thanking them for their talk, acknowledging the hard things that they've uncovered as hard, thanking them for the solutions that they've produced.

如果我发现问题，我在实验室里还有其他沟通方式，可以在那个场合之外去识别和处理这些问题。

And if if I see problems, I have other communication methods in the lab to try to identify those and deal with them outside of that forum.

但你说得完全对。

But you're absolutely right.

这确实是团队领导者最需要注意的一点，因为严谨与支持之间的张力一直存在。

This is, like, the number one thing for a team leader to be aware of because the rigor slash support tension is there all the time.

你知道，Russ，我喜欢主持这个播客的原因之一就是能跟优秀的人交流。

You know, Russ, one of the things I love about hosting this podcast is the ability to talk with amazing people.

我总能学到东西。

I always learn something.

你主持《万物未来》这么多年，有没有学到什么，可能对《快思慢讲》的听众有帮助的？

What is something that you've learned from your many years of hosting The Future of Everything that you think might help the listeners of Think Fast Talk Smart?

我采访的那些人，他们做的事情，就是他们认为自己可能做的最重要的事情。

The people who I interview, what they do is the thing that they think is the most important thing they could possibly do.

所以你跟一位土木工程师聊聊。

So you talk to a civil engineer.

这不仅仅是土木工程里一个小而有意思的问题。

It's not that this is one little interesting problem in civil engineering.

对这个人来说，这是土木工程里最有意思的问题，而且确实，这是他们能想到的最重要的事情。

This is the most interesting problem in civil engineering to this person, and indeed, it's the most important thing they can think of doing.

所以科学家和工程师的热情——因为那是我们关注的焦点。

And so the passion that scientists and engineers because that's what we focus on.

但科学家和工程师在投入工作时的那股热情，本不该让我惊讶，但它确实让我惊讶了。

But the passion of scientists and engineers in approaching their work probably shouldn't have surprised me, but it did.

我学到的是，你得触及人们的热情所在，才能真正理解是什么让他们充满动力。

And I learned that you need to get to people's passion to really understand what makes them tick.

对我们所有人来说，无论是和同事还是和社交圈里的人相处，重要的是给他们机会去讲述他们的热情。

That's important for all of us to do with the people we work with and the people we socialize with is provide them avenues to explain their passion.

我们稍后回来继续我们的对话。

We'll be right back to finish our conversation.

不过首先，我们要快速休息一下，听一听赞助商的广告。

But first, we're going to take a quick break for a word from our sponsors.

他们的支持承担了制作成本，这样我们才能免费为大家带来这个节目。

Their support covers the cost of production so we can bring you this show for free.

本期节目由 Squarespace 赞助播出。

This episode is sponsored by Squarespace.

好的沟通不仅仅是说对一次话。

Great communication isn't just about saying the right thing once.

而是要持续出现，让大家知道你能带来什么。

It's about showing up consistently so people know what to expect from you.

无论你是向客户、学生、同事还是你的听众分享想法，当人们能轻松找到你的作品并持续互动时，信任就会建立起来。

Whether you're sharing ideas with customers, students, colleagues, or your audience, people build trust when they can easily find your work and engage with it over time.

Squarespace 为你提供了一个平台，让你能轻松做到这一切。

Squarespace gives you one place to do exactly that.

你可以建立专业网站、创建邮件营销、销售产品或内容，并管理你的在线形象，所有这些工具都集中在一个平台上。

You can build a professional website, create email campaigns, sell products or content, and manage your online presence, all with the tools you need in one platform.

如果你在找一个简单的方法，把好的沟通变成长久的关系，Squarespace 是个很好的起点。

If you're looking for a simple way to turn great communication into lasting relationships, Squarespace is a great place to start.

去 squarespace.com 免费试用，等你准备好上线时，访问 squarespace.com/thinkfast，首次购买网站或域名可享九折优惠。

Go to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com/thinkfast to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

我知道你听这个播客，所以你也知道，在结束之前，我喜欢问三个问题。

Well, I know you listen to the podcast, so you know that before we end, I like to ask three questions.

第一个，我专门为你准备的。

One, I create just for you.

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

这太让人兴奋了。

This is so exciting.

另外两个问题，对每个受访者都差不多。

And two that are similar for everybody else I interview.

你准备好回答了吗？

You up for yours?

当然。

Absolutely.

好的。

Alright.

都非常关注未来。

Are very future focused.

那么，关于未来，有什么特别让你兴奋的事情吗？

So what is one thing about the future that you're particularly excited about?

我对年轻人感到兴奋。

I am excited about young people.

年轻人开始塑造他们的生活和方向，这让我对未来充满希望。

Young people starting to form their lives and their direction gives me hope for the future.

你可能已经注意到，世界目前面临很多问题，很容易变得非常消极。

As you may have come to your attention, the world is currently facing a lot of problems, and it's very easy to get very negative.

如果你想对抗这种消极情绪，就参与年轻人的招生或招聘过程，比如他们的第一份工作或下一份工作。

And if you want to combat that negativity, be involved in an admissions process or a hiring process of young people, like, for their first job or for their next job.

如果你不感到振奋，那我觉得你需要好好反省一下自己。

If you're not inspired, then I think you need to do some deep introspection.

我很喜欢这个回答，因为我有很多朋友变得越来越爱抱怨，他们会说，这些年轻人，这个世界会变成什么样啊？

I love that answer simply because I have lots of friends who are getting curmudgeonly, and they will say, these young people, what's this world gonna amount to?

而我会说，其实是我们自己造成的问题，因为如果你来看看我的学生或者我辅导的那些人，你会发现他们充满希望，充满热情。

And I say, it's us that's causing the problems because if you come in and see my students or the people I coach, there's a lot of hope, there's a lot of excitement.

我很高兴你也这么认为。

And I'm I'm glad you echoed that.

第二个问题，你欣赏哪位沟通者，为什么？

Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?

我爸爸。

My dad.

说说为什么。

Tell me why.

他的声音很好听。

He had a great voice.

他的声音像电台播音员一样，而且他做的很多事情都是你经常提到的那些。

He had an FM voice, and he did lots of the things that you discuss all the time.

当我努力做到最好的沟通时，我就是在模仿我爸爸。

When I'm trying to do my best at communicating, I'm channeling dad.

我其实有点感动，因为我对我的父亲也有同样的感觉。

I actually am getting a little choked up because I feel exactly the same way about my father.

我父亲的声音非常有磁性，很洪亮。

My father had an amazing resonant voice.

你说到电台播音员的声音，我父亲确实做过一点广播，而且他总是很有条理。

And when you said FM voice, my father actually did a little radio, and he was always very structured.

直奔主题。

Get to the point.

重点是什么？

What's the point?

这真的帮助我变得更加专注和具体。

And it really helped me try to be more focused and concrete.

如果可以的话，是的。

So be if I may Yeah.

在今天早上录的播客和现在这个之间，我做了个演讲，有人问我，你收到过最好的建议是什么？

Between the podcast we did this morning and the one we're doing now, I gave a talk and somebody said, what's the best piece of advice you ever got?

我说那是我爸给我的，就是直奔主题。

And I said it was from my dad, and it was get to the point.

哦，真有意思。

Oh, how funny.

第三个问题。

Question number three.

一个成功的沟通配方里，最先要放的三样东西是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

你得知道你在跟谁说话。

You need to know who you're talking to.

你得了解你的听众，稍微知道他们的目标、希望和梦想。

You need to know the audience a little bit about their goals, hopes, and dreams.