325. 信息市场契合度：将好创意转化为有效的沟通

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

我超级兴奋地告诉大家，我们的九月通讯现在可以看了。

I am super excited to share that our September newsletter is now available.

我们的通讯会分享接下来一个月左右我们正在进行的精彩内容，你还能学到一些实用的技巧，用来处理生活中的冲突。

Our newsletter shares exciting things we have going on in the next month or so, and you'll learn practical tactical skills for handling conflict in your life.

那就是在LinkedIn上的《Think Fast, Talk Smart》，或者去fastersmarter.io的资源板块看看。

That's Think Fast, Talk Smart on LinkedIn or under resources at fastersmarter.io.

接下来是我们的赞助商时间。

And now a word from our sponsors.

他们的支持承担了制作成本，让我们能免费为你带来这一期节目。

Their support covers the cost of production, allowing us to bring you this episode free of charge.

我花越多时间思考、教学和清晰表达，就越能把真正重要的工作做好。

The more time I spend thinking, teaching and communicating clearly, the better I can do the work that really matters to me.

而有一件事很有帮助，那就是减少花在跟上进度上的时间。

And one thing that helps is spending less time just getting up to speed.

在我回复邮件、准备会议或跟进对话之前，往往需要梳理很多背景信息。

Before I reply to an email, prepare for a meeting or follow-up on a conversation, there can be a lot of context to sort through.

这就是为什么Superhuman Go让我眼前一亮。

That's why Superhuman Go stood out to me.

它来自Grammarly的团队，而Grammarly我已经用了好多年了。

It's from the makers of Grammarly, which I've relied on for years.

和那些需要另开一个标签页、还得让我解释自己在做什么的AI工具不同，Superhuman Go直接在我已经工作的地方发挥作用。

And unlike AI tools that require another tab and often require me to explain what I'm working on, Superhuman Go works where I already work.

它已经了解情况，随时待命。

It's already up to speed and right there when I need it.

我可以轻松理解长长的邮件往来，为会议做准备，或者起草回复，而不用切换应用或打乱思路。

I can make sense of a long email thread, prepare for a meeting, or draft a response without switching apps or losing my place.

Go帮我处理了很多重复性的工作，这样我就能专注于真正需要我的工作。

Go handles some of the most repetitive work that I do so I can stay focused on the work that actually needs me.

试试来自Grammarly团队的Superhuman Go吧。

Try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly.

更多信息请访问 superhuman.com。

Find out more at superhuman.com.

我们每个人都有自己独特的沟通风格。

Each of us has our own unique communication signature.

你的沟通风格在向别人传递什么信息呢？

What is your signature saying about you?

我叫马特·亚伯拉罕，在斯坦福商学院教战略沟通。

My name's Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.

欢迎收听《快速思考，聪明说话》播客。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.

今天，我很高兴能和奥利弗·奥斯特聊聊。

Today, I am excited to talk with Oliver Aust.

奥利弗是“像CEO一样说话”学院的创始人，他指导高管和创始人如何优化和规划他们的沟通方式。

Oliver is founder of Speak Like a CEO Academy, where he coaches executives and founders how to refine and strategize about their communication.

他写了好几本书，包括《不可忽视》和《信息机器》，还主持一个很受欢迎的播客《像CEO一样说话》。

He's written several books, including Unignorable and Message Machine, and he hosts the popular podcast, Speak Like a CEO.

欢迎你，奥利弗。

Welcome, Oliver.

我真的很高兴能和你聊天，而且能面对面交流真是太好了。

I am really excited to be chatting with you, and it's great to be here in person.

这些年来我们聊了很多次，我非常欣赏你的工作。

We've done a lot of chatting over the years and I really appreciate your work.

谢谢你的到来。

Thanks for joining.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

通常我们都是在网上聊天，现在能面对面真是太好了。

It's so great to be face to face after usually chatting online.

平时我们相隔六千英里，九个时区，所以能当面交流真是太好了。

Normally 6,000 miles and nine time zones separate us, so it's great to be in person.

太好了。

Excellent.

我们开始吧？

Should we get started?

太好了。

Lovely.

非常好。

Excellent.

在斯坦福，我们教MBA学生很多关于产品市场契合度的知识，以提高他们的产品能命中目标并产生效益的可能性。

Here at Stanford, we teach our MBAs a lot about product market fit to increase the likelihood that their offerings will hit the target and they'll be able to be productive.

你提到了信息市场契合度。

You talk about Message Market Fit.

这是什么？我们如何通过最大化它来受益？

What is this, and how can all of us benefit by maximizing it?

每个想成功的公司都需要产品市场契合度，即你的产品有市场，以及信息市场契合度，这意味着你找到合适的语言和故事，来说服顶尖人才、客户和投资者与你合作、购买你的产品、投资你。

Every company that wants to be successful needs both product market fit, there's a market for your product, and message market fit, which means that you find the right words, the right story to convince top talent, customers, and investors to work with you, buy from you, invest in you.

如果你做到了这些，你就能实现信息市场契合度，而这两者缺一不可。

And if you do that, then you can achieve Message Market Fit, and you need both.

所以在我最近的那本书《信息机器》里，我们研究了为什么90%的初创公司会失败。

So in my most recent book, Message Machine, we looked at why 90% of startups fail.

还有那些成熟的公司，它们的寿命也在不断缩短。

Plus established companies, their lifespan gets shorter and shorter as well.

而且很多时候，问题就出在缺乏信息市场匹配上，对吧？

And more often than not, it's the lack of message market fit, right?

你有一个产品，它确实能用，但市场上的产品太多了。

You have a product, it works, but there are just so many products out there.

要获得关注真的很难，因为说实话，没人关心我们、我们的公司、我们的产品。

It's just very hard to get traction because let's face it, no one cares about us, our company, our products.

我们必须让他们关心起来。

We have to make them care.

要做到这一点，我们需要用对的话。

And for that, we need the right words.

你在研究中有没有发现某些特别有效的词，或者某些方法能帮你确定哪些词有效？

Have you found in your research certain words that work or certain ways of determining which words work?

我常见的一个错误是，公司喜欢谈论产品本身，他们做什么，为什么好，为什么他们对此如此兴奋。

Common mistake I see is that companies like to talk about the product, what they do and why it's great and why they're so excited about this.

这没用。

That doesn't work.

你应该谈论结果。

You want to talk about the outcome.

对他们有什么好处？

What's in it for them?

对你的客户有什么好处？

What's in it for your customer?

你可能听过这句话，人们不想要四分之一英寸的钻头。

You probably heard the phrase, people don't want a quarter inch drill.

他们想要四分之一英寸的孔。

They want a quarter inch hole.

但我觉得这还不够，因为谁想要墙上的一个洞呢？

But I think that's even falling short because who wants a hole in the wall?

人们想要的是墙上挂着一幅漂亮的画。

People want a picture nicely hung on the wall.

所以给他们看那幅画。

So show them the picture.

不要只是描述那幅画。

Don't just describe the picture.

给他们看那幅画。

Show them the picture.

让他们看到它。

Make them see it.

让他们感受到它，并相信它。

Make them feel it and believe it.

让他们相信，如果你们合作，一切皆有可能，尤其是在B2B领域。

Make them believe what's possible if you work together, especially, of course, in the B2B space.

所以这就是我要追求的目标——结果，对他们有什么好处。

So that's what I would aim for, the outcome, what's in it for them.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

所以，你讲的故事，要让你的信息贴合市场，关键是要确保相关性，并且你要讲的是价值，不是它是什么，而是它能带来什么价值。

So the stories you're telling, help your message fit the market is to make sure that it's relevant, and you're explaining the value, not what it is, but the value it provides.

没错。

That's right.

而且，你和我这个周末大概就能开发出一个帮助人们更好沟通的应用程序。

And it's you and I could probably develop an app this weekend on helping people how to communicate better.

我们直接就能做出来。

We could just do it.

但它能成为一个商业上可行的业务吗？

But would it be a commercially viable operation?

它能成为一家蓬勃发展的公司吗？

Would it be a thriving company?

这要看情况，对吧？

It depends, right?

现在推出新服务和产品太容易了，但更难的是找到受众和客户。

It's so easy to produce new services and products these days, but it's harder to find an audience and find customers for it.

所以你看，信息与市场的匹配度比以前更重要了。

So you can see how message market fit is even more important than it used to be.

哦，确实如此。

Oh, absolutely.

而且事实上，我认为在你开发产品、确定市场的同时，你就需要开始考虑相关的信息和传播方式。

And in fact, I would argue that as you're developing your product, as you're identifying your market, you need to be thinking about the message and the messaging around it.

对。

Yes.

要并行进行。

Do it in parallel.

不要先做出产品，然后再想怎么卖、怎么找投资人这些。

Don't create a product and then think about how you want to sell it and find investors, etcetera.

要并行推进，或者像亚马逊那样做。

Do it in parallel or the Amazon way.

你先写新闻稿。

You create the press release first.

然后再看看有没有合适的词来描述它。

And then see if there are actually words that describe it.

但这并不容易，尤其是在创业领域的创新空间里，因为你本质上是在创造一些可能还不存在的东西。

But it's not easy, especially in the innovative spaces in the startup world because you're by definition creating something that probably doesn't exist.

所以找到人们能理解的恰当词汇来描述它并不容易。

So finding the right words to describe it that people understand isn't easy.

还要和你的客户交流。

And talk to your customers.

有时候就这么简单。

It's sometimes as simple as that.

你需要走出去，创始人要离开办公室，去和客户聊聊。

You need to go out, founders leave the building, talk to your customers.

然后边做边调整。

And iterate as you go.

就像你不断迭代产品一样，你也需要不断调整你的信息。

Just like you iterate on the product, you need to be iterating on the message.

在你的书《不可忽视》中，你讨论了在拥挤的市场中脱颖而出的必要性，而且这个市场每天都在变得更加拥挤。

In your book, Unexplorable, you discussed the necessity of standing out in a crowded landscape, and it is getting more and more crowded every day.

对于今天这个快节奏、以数字创作者为先的世界里的创始人和领导者来说，要建立自己的品牌，从被忽视到真正不可忽视的第一步是什么？

For founders and leaders trying to build their brand in today's fast paced digital creator first world, what is the first step to shifting from being overlooked to becoming truly unignorable?

“不可忽视”这个词其实是从史蒂夫·马丁的一句话演变来的。

The word unignorable is actually wordplay on a Steve Martin quote.

有人问史蒂夫·马丁，什么让人成功，他说，做到好到他们无法忽视你。

Steve Martin was asked what makes someone successful, and he said, be so good they can't ignore you.

当然，如果我们能做到那么好，那很棒，但这只是故事的一部分。

And of course that's great if we can be that good, but it's only part of the story.

因为在这个时代，就像他说的，我们还得会宣传自己的工作。

Because in this day and age, as he said, we have to also talk about the work.

所以“不可忽视”意味着你做好工作，同时也要让人知道。

So unignorable means you do good work, but you also talk about it.

你知道，就像你谈论你的工作一样，我们在这里是为了给予，而不是索取。

You know, in the same way you talk about your work, we're here to give, not to get.

这没什么不好意思的。

And there's nothing icky about this.

所以，把你的心态从‘哦，你知道，我让作品自己说话’转变为‘我做好工作并且谈论它’，这是第一步。

So shifting your mindset from, oh, you know, I let the work speak for itself to I do good work and talk about it, that's the first step.

然后我们需要正确的信息。

Then we need the right message.

我们的话需要引起共鸣。

Our words needs to resonate.

我们需要找到受众、客户等等。

We need to find an audience, customers, etcetera.

所以我们需要信息，也需要方法。

So we need the message, and we also need a method.

我们需要找到一种方法来扩大我们的影响力和声誉。

We need to find a way that increases our reach and our reputation.

所以我会从心态、信息和方式这三个方面开始。

So that's where I would start with the mindset, the message, and the method.

各位听众，你们了解我，我喜欢用一些助记法来帮助我们。

Anybody listening, and you know this about me, I love mnemonics that help us.

所以我特别喜欢这三个M。

So I love the three m's.

你能为我们详细解释一下吗？

Can you break those down for us?

心态就是坦然自在地展示你带来的价值。

So the mindset is being comfortable, being out front with the value you bring.

心态方面还有其他要点吗？

Other parts of that mindset piece?

2018年，我开始打造个人品牌，写书，做播客，当时我很犹豫，我的团队告诉我，奥利弗，你需要站出来，让大家看到你。

In 2018, when I started building my brand and started to write books, starting to podcast, I was hesitant and my team told me Oliver you need to be out there, you need to be seen.

我说，但这关乎团队，而不是我。

And I said but it's about the team, it's not about me.

对，我们听到了，但这对我们大家都有帮助。

It's like yeah we hear you but it helps all of us.

所以我觉得我们都会经历这种心态上的转变，很多人从小被教育不要自吹自擂，要谦虚，这些都是很好的品质，要保留。

So I think there is this mindset shift that we all go through and many of us have been brought up not to toot our own horns, to be humble, and those are wonderful qualities and embrace them.

但是，没有人会知道我们，而且在这个时代，说实话，外面竞争很激烈。

However, no one will know about us and that in this day and age where let's face it it's hard out there.

劳动力市场很艰难。

The labor market's tough.

我们需要被看见。

We need to be seen.

所以从某种程度上说，在人工智能时代，我们的个人品牌就是我们的护城河。

So in a way our personal brand is our moat in the age of AI.

嗯，我觉得还有另一个M值得考虑。

Well, I like another m to be thinking about.

要找到那种舒适感，敢于站出来宣扬你所代表的东西，你的品牌、你的想法、你的产品，这确实很难。

So finding that level of comfort with being out there espousing what it is you're representing, your brand, your idea, your product, It is hard.

对我来说也很难。

It was hard for me too.

但如果你提醒自己，你的工作对别人有价值，而作为传播者能帮到别人，这会有所帮助。

But if you remind yourself that the work adds value to other people and being a mouthpiece for that can help.

关于信息传达，我知道这是个很大的问题，我不是故意要为难你，但人们在展示自己的品牌时，你觉得在信息传达方面什么最有帮助？

In terms of messaging, and I know this is a huge question, and I don't mean it to be unfair, but what have you found most helpful when people are trying to present their brand in terms of messaging?

我会专注于你能给对方带来什么，以及你为谁服务、不为谁服务，还有你不是什么，因为我们的大脑很擅长理解对比。

I would focus on what you bring to the other person and also who you are for and who you're not for and what you're not, because our brains are very good at understanding contrast.

我是这个，不是那个。

I'm this, not that.

我们不擅长理解“更好”。

We're not good at understanding better.

那到底是什么意思？

What does that even mean?

比什么更好？

Who's better than what?

谁的方案比什么更好呢？

Whose offer is better than what?

但如果我说，你知道，我是为领导者服务的。

But if I'm saying, you know, I'm for leaders.

我用我的“像CEO一样说话”方法帮助领导者更好地沟通。

I'm helping leaders communicate better with my Speak Like a CEO method.

首先，我说了我为谁服务，然后我说了我的方法有独特之处。

First of all, I said who I am for, and then I said there's something specific about the way I do it.

我有自己的方法，所有东西都是我的学院和我的书等等。

I have my own method, and everything is my academy and my books, etcetera.

所有东西都叫“像CEO一样说话”。

Everything is called Speak Like a CEO.

所以这有它的独特之处。

So there's something distinctive about it.

如果有人说需要给200名员工做工作坊，那可能就不是我了。

And if say I need a workshop for 200 employees, it's probably not me.

我跟领导者合作。

I work with leaders.

所以要尽量做到有特色，并且明确你的服务对象是谁，不服务谁，以及你不做什么。

So try to be distinctive and try to be clear who you're for and what you're not and who you're not for.

这种对比的概念，你为谁服务，不为谁服务，你不做什么，非常重要。

That idea of contrast, who you're for, who you're not for, what you don't do, very important.

它帮助你为自己明确目标受众是谁，同时也帮助你的目标受众判断你是否适合他们。

It helps you define for yourself who your target audience is, but it helps your target audience figure out if you are appropriate for them.

所以花时间认真思考这些信息很重要。

So taking the time to do that thoughtful messaging is important.

没错。

That's right.

我们这里有三个C可以帮助我们。

And we have three Cs here that can help us.

第一个是对比，第二个是精简。

So there's the contrast, There's the compression.

所以我们想让它简短一些。

So we wanna make it short.

我们不想花三十秒、两分钟来解释我们是谁、我们做什么。

We don't wanna spend thirty seconds, two minutes to explain who we are and what we do.

然后还有节奏。

And then there's cadence.

听起来要顺耳。

It should sound right.

如果我们有简短、精炼的内容，有好的节奏，还有对比，那我们就走在正确的道路上，能做出非常有力、非常简洁的信息。

And if we have something short, compressed, something that has good cadence, and something that contrasts, then we're on the right path for very strong, very succinct messaging.

三个M引出三个C。

Three m's that lead to three c's.

我真的很喜欢这个。

I really like that.

所以这三个C就是对比、节奏和精炼，也就是简洁明了。

So the three c's again are contrast, cadence, and compressed, being concise and clear.

太好了。

Excellent.

我觉得这三个标准可以用来评估和衡量你写的任何信息。

And I think those are three criteria you can use to assess and measure any message as you craft them.

我们来谈谈方法吧。

Let's talk about methods.

其实有很多渠道可以传递信息。

So there are lots of channels through which we can communicate information.

对于如何找到适合你信息的方法，你有什么建议和指导吗？

What advice and guidance do you have for finding the appropriate method for the message that you have?

当然，要考虑你的受众在哪里。

Of course, think about where your audience is.

对我们很多人来说，可能是在领英上。

And for many of us, that may be LinkedIn.

你在领英上非常活跃。

You are very active on LinkedIn.

我在领英上非常活跃。

I'm very active on LinkedIn.

在领英上，我觉得一切都取决于你的PACE。

And on LinkedIn I'd say it's all about your PACE.

PACE就是你的个人资料、你的受众、你的内容以及互动。

PACE is your profile, your audience, your content, and the engagement.

如今，个人资料其实非常重要，原因有很多。

Profile is actually so important these days for a number of reasons.

我觉得这是你的数字第一印象。

I'd say it's your digital first impression.

所以你得把它弄好。

So you want to get that right.

然而我看到很多专业人士的个人资料，有点，怎么说呢，不太受重视。

And yet I see a lot of profiles of professionals that are a little, let's say, unloved.

它们需要一点关爱。

They could use a little TLC.

我觉得花点时间打理一下你的个人资料，这本身就是一种职业上的自我照顾。

And I think it's just professional self care to spend a little time on your profile.

所以我会建议从那里开始。

So that's where I would start.

确保它真的能很好地代表你。

Make sure it really represents you well.

以前有句话说，不要为你现在的工作打扮。

It used to be said that, oh, don't dress for the job you have.

要为你想要的工作打扮。

Dress for the job you want to have.

我觉得现在的情况是，不要为你现在的工作创建LinkedIn资料。

I'd say today it's don't create a LinkedIn profile for the job you have.

要为你想要的工作创建一个。

Create one for the job you want to have.

你知道，那里可能确实需要一点细心打理。

You know, little TLC is probably in order there.

所以这就是个人资料的部分。

So that's the profile.

然后PACE里的A就是你的受众。

And then the A in PACE is your audience.

想想你想触达谁，因为那里有十亿人。

Think about who you want to reach because they're billion people.

如果你没有明确的目标，你就谁也触达不到。

If you don't have the clarity you're not going to reach anyone.

也许你需要十万粉丝，也许你只需要一千个强有力的联系。

Maybe you need a 100,000 followers, maybe you just need a thousand strong connections.

所以，去联系你行业里的决策者，那些应该认识你的人。

So reach out to people in your industries who are the decision makers in your industry that should know you?

参与他们的内容互动。

Engage with their content.

主动联系他们。

Reach out to them.

和他们建立联系。

Connect with them.

所以要有目的地去思考这个问题。

So think about this with intention.

然后是内容。

Then content.

你可能觉得领英上很热闹。

You probably think that LinkedIn is pretty busy.

很多人都在发内容。

Lots of people posting content.

但实际上，在这个平台超过十亿的用户中，只有1%的人会定期发帖，比如每周发几次。

But actually of the billion plus people on the platform, only 1% of them post regularly, like a couple of times per week.

所以如果你每周发两次，你就已经是领英上那顶尖的1%了。

So if you post two times a week, you're in the top 1% on LinkedIn.

在你的行业里，你也是领英上顶尖的1%。

You're in top 1% in your industry on LinkedIn.

而且如果你发的是高质量内容，每周只要发几篇扎实的帖子，你很可能就是你所在行业里的前0.1%，而不是那些AI垃圾内容。

And let's say you post good quality content, you're probably in the 0.1% in your industry just by posting a few solid posts per week, not AI slob.

然后是E，也就是互动，PACE里的E，意思是你需要去互动别人的内容，这样他们才会来互动你的内容。

And then e, engagement and PACE, that is you need to engage with other people's content so they engage with you.

这是有来有往的。

It's give and take.

不是那种，哦，请来互动我的内容吧，如果你自己都不愿意去互动别人的内容的话。

It's not, oh, please come and engage with my content if if you're not willing to engage with other people's content.

我喜欢一个好记的缩写。

I love a good acronym.

而且我觉得对于任何在线发帖来说，PACE都很有道理。

And I think for any online posting, PACE makes a lot of sense.

想想你的个人资料。

Think about your profile.

想想你的受众。

Think about your audience.

真正专注于你的内容，然后去互动。

Really focus on your content, and then engage.

不仅要和你的内容互动，还要和别人发布的内容互动。

Engage not just with your content, but content of other people.

如果你这样做，不仅能跟上节奏，还能引领节奏。

If you do that, not only will you keep up the pace, you'll set the pace.

我很感激。

I appreciate that.

所以，对于做我们这一行的人来说，奥利弗，焦虑对我们想帮助的那些人来说是个大问题。

So for people who do what we do, Oliver, anxiety looms large for those that we try to help.

跟我分享一下，你是怎么帮助人们在沟通时感到更自在、更自信、更平静的？

Share with me a little bit about how you help people feel more comfortable, confident, and calm when they communicate.

也许我可以贡献一个小框架。

Maybe I can contribute one little framework.

这是我为自己总结出来的，因为像所有人一样，你知道，如果舞台够大，风险够高，我想我们都能感受到那种紧张。

And I've developed this for myself because like everyone, you know, if the stage is big enough and the stakes are high enough, I think we can all feel it.

所以就是宝马，身体、心态和语言。

So it's BMW, body, mind, and words.

从身体开始，顺序很重要，因为如果我们紧张，你知道，那是一种生理信号。

And it starts with your body and the order matters because if we are nervous, as you know, it's a physiological signal.

我们可以叹气，可以做呼吸练习。

And we can do sighing, we can do breathing exercises.

我非常喜欢动起来，因为如果我们一直站着或坐着不动，身体会感觉被困住。

I'm a big fan of movement Because if we stand in the same place or sit in the same place, the body can feel trapped.

所以稍微动一动，轻松地活动一下，比如在街区走走，比上台或做演示前查邮件要好得多，因为查邮件可能会让我们心跳加速，里面有些东西会让我们以消极的方式兴奋起来。

So a little movement, light movement, walking around the block is much better than checking our emails before we go on stage or give a presentation because that probably gets our blood racing and something is in there that really excites us in a negative way.

B代表身体，呼吸、叹气、活动。

B body, breathing, sighing movement.

然后是心态。

Then mindset.

把紧张重新定义为兴奋会很有帮助。

It helps to reframe the nervousness as excitement.

除此之外，我还特别喜欢用“力量记忆”这个方法。

On top of that, I'm a big fan of power memories.

也就是说，我们会回想那些我们表现得很好的类似场合，对吧？

Meaning, we think back to similar situations that we aced, right?

如果我要向董事会做汇报，脑子里却开始想各种可能出错的地方，不，这时候就要把记忆拉回到那些你做得非常出色的演讲上。

If I'm going to present to the board and my mind goes and oh, all the things that could go wrong, no, bring your memories back to the presentations that you did really well.

所以这就是“力量记忆”，当我们陷入消极想法的时候，它能帮我们拉回来。

So that's a power memory and it helps us when we drift off into all the negative territory to bring it back.

然后W代表的是语言。

And then the W is the words.

人们紧张往往是因为语言，要么是准备得不够充分，解决办法很简单，要么就是准备的方式不对，通常就是试图背稿子。

People get nervous because of their words because either they haven't prepared enough solution is simple or they have prepared in the wrong way, which means they have usually tried to remember a script.

既然你非常推崇结构，那就要用结构，而不是背稿子。

And as you're a big proponent of structure, you wanna use structure, not a script.

背稿子非常耗时。

A script is is very time consuming.

这确实很难。

It's hard.

我们又不是专业演员，所以要用结构。

We are not professional actors, so we wanna use structure.

我们要记住关键信息和要点，而不是背稿子。

We wanna memorize our key messages, our points, not remember a script.

所以，BMW，我们重新调整自己的神经系统。

So BMW, we reset our nervous system.

我们在脑海中重新构建情境，然后用结构来组织语言。

We reframe the situation in our minds, and then we prepare with structure to organize our words.

说得好。

Well put.

这确实是个好记的方法。

Again, a useful way of remembering.

你重新定义了CEO的角色。

You've redefined the CEO role.

你认为CEO实际上应该成为首席故事讲述者。

You argue that the CEO really should be the storyteller in chief.

请详细说说这一点，以及我们如何帮助CEO——其实不一定是CEO，任何类型的领导者——真正理解讲故事在他们工作中的重要性？

Tell me more about that, and how do we help CEOs, and it doesn't have to be CEO, leaders of any type, to really understand the importance of storytelling in their job?

故事是我们思考的方式，是我们理解世界的方式。

Stories is how we think, how we make sense of the word.

一个两岁的小孩能听懂故事，但要成为一个优秀的金融专业人士或医生，却需要二十年的教育，比如在斯坦福。

A two year old can understand a story, but it takes twenty years of education, Stanford, for instance, to be a good finance professional or to be be a doctor or something.

你可以看到，讲故事为什么总是比讲事实更有效。

You can see why storytelling beats fact telling every day of the week.

这对CEO意味着什么呢？

What does it mean for CEOs?

我认为尤其是在当今这个变化如此之快的时代，没有哪家公司能确定自己几年后还会存在。

I think especially in this day and age where the world is changing so fast, no company can be sure that it's gonna be around in a few years.

很多员工担心人工智能会对他们的工作和岗位产生什么影响。

Many employees worry about what AI will do to their jobs, their roles.

我觉得现在CEO特别有责任为员工，也为其他利益相关者，解读这个世界。

I think especially now a CEO has a duty to make sense of the world for employees, but also for other stakeholders.

无论是投资者、监管机构还是公众。

Whether it's investors, regulators, the public.

我觉得这是他们的责任。

I think it's their duty.

而且我认为讲故事就是实现这个目标的最佳方式。

And I think that storytelling is the right vehicle to do this.

怎么做呢？

How?

在我看来，演讲者分三个层次。

To me, there are three levels of speakers.

最底层的是那种东拉西扯的人。

The bottom level is of the rambler.

这种人从某个地方开始讲，讲到某个地方结束，边讲边想，但在这个过程中把听众都讲丢了。

The rambler starts somewhere and ends somewhere and thinks while they speak, but they lose the audience in the process.

第二层是机器人式的，这种人会写好稿子，然后排练二十遍。

Level two is the robot, and the robot is scripting it out, rehearsing it 20 times.

虽然内容会很到位，但听起来会很生硬、不自然。

It's gonna be on message, but it's gonna be stiff and unnatural.

所以不会很吸引人。

So it's not gonna be very engaging.

也不会是个好的讲故事的人。

It's not gonna be a great storyteller.

所以第三层是善于讲故事的人，也就是会讲故事的人。

So level three is the raconteur, the storyteller.

而会讲故事的人会运用故事的结构，不依赖稿子，只是抱着一种“我需要讲个故事”的心态。

And the storyteller uses story structure, doesn't use scripts, and just has that mindset of I need to tell a story.

我需要解释清楚我们的愿景是什么。

I need to explain what our vision is.

我们要往哪里去？

Where are we going?

那现在呢？

What so what now?

你最喜欢哪种结构？

What is one of your favorite structures?

还有一些其他的，比如激发、扰乱、安抚，或者目标、问题、解决方案。

There are some others like excite, disturb, assure, or goal, problem, solution.

所以我可以谈谈我们作为企业想要实现的目标。

So I can talk about the things we wanna achieve as a business.

或者我说，这是我们的目标。

Or I say, here's the goal.

现在我们面临的挑战是什么，解决方案是什么。

Now here's the challenge we face, and here's the solution.

如果我这样做，我就会成为一个更会讲故事的人。

And if I do this, then I start becoming a stronger storyteller.

这其实并不复杂。

And it's not actually rocket science.

一旦我们克服了那种“哦，我得讲事实，这就是我们在这里做的事”的顾虑，这其实对我们来说很自然。

It comes so naturally to us once we overcome this inhibition of, oh, I need to tell facts and this is what we do here.

我觉得那属于工业时代。

I think that belongs to the industrial age.

我觉得今天我们生活在远见者和讲故事者的时代，因为没有人知道我们要去哪里，世界会发生什么。

I think today, we live in an age of visionaries and storytellers because none of us knows where we are going, what happens to the world.

所以领导者越能鼓舞人心，越有教育意义，对大家就越好。

So the more inspirational, the more educational a leader can be, the better for everyone.

说得好。

Well put.

拥有讲故事的能力，重视讲故事的重要性，真的会带来不同，而且无论我们是不是领导者，它都会影响我们每个人的生活。

Having the ability to tell a story, to focus on the importance of storytelling really makes a difference, and it makes a difference in all of our lives regardless of if we're leaders or not.

我们马上回来继续我们的对话，但首先，快速感谢一位

We'll be right back to finish our conversation, but first a quick word from one

我们的赞助商。

of our sponsors.

他们的支持让我们能够免费为大家带来这个节目。

Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge.

本期播客由 Squarespace 赞助。

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace.

如果你有专业知识要分享，合适的线上形象可以帮助你将所知转化为真正的机会，去教学、联系客户、找到客户，或者发展自己的事业。

If you have expertise to share, the right online presence can help turn what you know into real opportunities to teach, connect, find clients, or grow something of your own.

这就是我喜欢 Squarespace 的原因。

That's what I like about Squarespace.

你可以创建一个真正反映你个人特色的专业网站，从他们专业设计的模板开始，或者使用 Blueprint AI 来帮你塑造外观和感觉。

You can create a professional site that actually reflects who you are, starting with one of their professionally designed templates or using Blueprint AI to help you shape the look and feel.

而且，如果你的专业知识是业务的一部分，Squarespace 为你提供工具来展示和销售服务，比如咨询、课程或活动，并集成了日程安排和支付功能。

And if your expertise is part of your business, Squarespace gives you tools to showcase and sell services like consultations, classes or events with scheduling and payments all in one place.

你还可以使用 Squarespace 的邮件营销活动，与你接触到的人保持联系，并在网站之外继续维持关系。

You can also use Squarespace email campaigns to stay connected with the people you reach and keep the relationship going beyond your website.

访问 squarespace.com/thinkfast 即可免费试用。

Go to squarespace.com/thinkfast for a free trial.

当你准备好上线时，去squarespace.com/thinkfast，首次购买网站或域名可以享受10%的折扣。

And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com/thinkfast to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

奥利弗，我就知道这会非常精彩。

Oliver, I knew this was gonna be fantastic.

我早就知道，因为我们聊过好几次了，每次我都能学到东西，而且真的很享受。

I knew it was because we've had several conversations, and I always learn something and really enjoy it.

在结束之前，你知道我会问三个问题。

Before we end, you well know I ask three questions.

一个是我专门为你准备的，另外两个是我一直问别人的问题。

One I make up just for you, and the others I've been asking people for a long time.

你准备好了吗？

Are you up for that?

当然。

Absolutely.

太好了。

Excellent.

作为一个研究沟通的人，你真的把一生都投入到了不仅提升自己的沟通能力，还帮助别人提升上，我很好奇，有没有一个方面是你自己一直在努力改进的？

As somebody who studies communication, has really invested your life in not only developing your own, but helping others, I'm curious if there's one area that you find yourself coming back to that you yourself are working on.

我一直在努力提升我的倾听能力。

I constantly have to work on my listening skills.

我觉得在所有沟通方面我都能做得更好，尤其是倾听。

I feel that I can always get better in all communication, but particularly listening.

我很好奇，你有没有在努力改进某个方面？你是怎么做的？

Curious if there's something that you're working on and how are you working on it?

我在努力提升我的幽默感，试着让自己更有趣、更吸引人。

I'm trying to work on my humor and trying to be, you know, more interesting, more entertaining.

因为你知道，大脑不会关注无聊的事情，但很多商务沟通都很无聊。

Because as you know, the brain doesn't pay attention to boring things and yet a lot of business communication is boring.

所以，只要比下一个演讲的人稍微有趣一点，就很容易脱颖而出。

So the bar is very low to be a little more entertaining than the next guy who's presenting.

所以这绝对是我正在努力的方向。

So that's definitely an area I'm working on.

这是我从德鲁·塔尔文那里学到的，他写了一本很棒的书叫《工作中的幽默》。

And I learned this from Drew Talvin, who wrote a great book called Humor at Work.

他是个非常棒的人，去年我们在一起待过一段时间。

He's a fantastic guy, we spent some time together last year.

他说，这其实不是讲笑话或者编排笑话的事。

And he said, it's not really about telling jokes or scripting jokes.

而是那种对话中的幽默，你带来的轻松感，就是试着想想怎么让这个更有趣一点。

It's about being that conversational humor, that levity you bring in, and just trying to think how can this be a little more fun?

怎么让这个演示更有趣一点？

How can this presentation a little more fun?

好的。

Okay.

也许可以放个表情包。

Maybe there's a meme.

也许可以用一张有趣的图片。

Maybe there's a funny picture I can use.

我们怎么才能让这段对话更有趣呢？

How can we make this conversation more fun?

这些小细节，通常就足够了。

These little things, that's often enough.

不是要让人捧腹大笑。

It's not laugh out loud.

其实就是那些小小的举动。

It's really those little steps.

所以幽默绝对是一个方面。

So humor is definitely an area.

我个人也需要在这方面努力，但带来轻松感这个想法确实能促进连接，也能带来能量，我很感谢你在这方面下功夫。

I personally need to work on that too, but this idea of bringing levity allows for connection and allows for energy, and I appreciate your working on it.

而且我认识你这么久，知道你很擅长这个。

And and I've known you long enough to know you're pretty good at it.

你挺搞笑的。

You're pretty funny.

第二个问题，你欣赏哪位沟通者，为什么？

Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why?

2021年，Hugo Boss公司来了一位新CEO，那是一家德国服装公司，他叫Daniel Riehler。

Twenty twenty one, there was a new CEO of the Hugo Boss Company, that's a German apparel company, called Daniel Riehler.

他上任的时候，

And he came in.

公司处境有点艰难。

The company was in a slightly challenged position.

第一周，他就召集了公司前100名高管。

And in the first week, he assembled his top 100 leaders.

他对他们说，听着，

And he said to them, look.

我们现在有个选择。

We have a choice here.

我们可以花一年时间互相了解、建立信任，或者现在就决定信任彼此。

We can either spend the next year getting to know each other and building trust, or we decide right here that we trust each other.