8. 翻译不迷路：非母语者如何自信沟通

嗨，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

在我们开始之前，

Before we get started,

我想提醒大家我们的新学习社区“Think Fast Talk Smart”，来自世界各地的听众可以在这里一起练习并提升沟通能力与职业发展。

I wanted to remind you about our new Think Fast Talk Smart learning community, where listeners from around the world can come together to practice and transform their communication and careers.

会员可以享受独家点播课程、引导式任务、直播读书会、AI教练Mat以及更多内容。

Members get access to exclusive on demand learning lessons, guided quests, live book club calls, an AI coach mat, and much more.

立即前往 fastersmarter.iolearning 加入我们。

Join today at fastersmarter.iolearning.

如果你在1月2日前注册，将获得一个月的免费服务。

If you sign up before January 2, you will get one month free.

随着节日临近，你可以送出一份提升沟通能力的礼物。

And with the holidays coming, you can give the gift of better communication.

现在，让我们听听来自我们赞助商的一条信息。

Now here's a message from one of our sponsors.

在Think Fast, Talk Smart，我们行动迅速。

Here at Think Fast, Talk Smart, we move fast.

从撰写面试问题到编写邮件、提案和演讲笔记。

From writing interview questions to crafting emails, proposals, and presentation notes.

但要在不同工具之间协调所有这些任务，确实会拖慢你的进度。

But juggling all those pieces across different tools, that can really slow you down.

切换标签页、在不同应用间复制粘贴、试图记住上次编辑的位置，这既耗时又令人沮丧。

Switching tabs, copying and pasting between apps, trying to remember where the last edit lives, it's time consuming and quite honestly, a little frustrating.

因此我使用Grammarly。

That's why I use Grammarly.

它专为需要从空白页面一路打磨到完美成品的专业人士量身打造。

It's tailor made for professionals who need to take a project from blank page to polished finish all in one place.

人工智能不会消失，为什么不利用它来提升效率呢？

And AI isn't going anywhere, so why not use it to your advantage?

Grammarly的实时建议、语气反馈和AI聊天功能，帮助我更快地头脑风暴和精细打磨。

Grammarly's real time suggestions, tone feedback, and AI chat help me brainstorm and fine tune faster.

所以让您的想法源源不断，专注于真正重要的事情——您的信息。

So keep your ideas flowing and stay focused on what really matters, your message.

免费注册，体验Grammarly如何从头到尾提升您的专业写作。

Sign up for free and experience how Grammarly can elevate your professional writing from start to finish.

访问 grammarly.com/podcast。

Visit grammarly.com/podcast.

那就是 grammarly.com/podcast。

That's grammarly.com/podcast.

你好。

Hello.

我是马特·阿布拉姆斯。

I'm Matt Abrahams.

我在斯坦福大学商学院教授战略沟通。

I teach strategic communication at Stanford's Graduate School of Business.

欢迎来到《快速思考，明智表达》。

Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart,

这个播客。

the podcast.

拥有

Having

用非母语进行交流可能非常具有挑战性。

to communicate in a language other than our native tongue can be quite a challenge.

我非常尊重我所教授和辅导的非英语母语学生和客户。

I have the utmost respect for the non native English speaking students and clients that I teach and coach.

我知道，即使说英语，我有时也会感到困难，更不用说说一门外语了。

I know that I struggle at times to speak in English, let alone a foreign language.

非母语者可以使用一些具体的技巧和方法来应对突发的交流挑战，也可以遵循一些建议和技巧来提高流利度。

There are some specific tactics and approaches non native speakers can use to handle in the moment challenges that arise, as well as advice and tips that they can follow to improve their fluency.

在本期节目中，我们将与肯·罗梅奥讨论这些具体的技巧和策略。

During this episode, we will speak with Ken Romeo about these specific tactics and strategies.

肯是斯坦福语言中心的副主任，他在斯坦福继续教育项目中授课。

Ken is the associate director for the Stanford Language Center, and he teaches in the Stanford Continuing Studies program.

肯每天都会面对非英语母语者所遇到的问题和挑战，我们非常期待听到你的建议和指导。

Ken, on a daily basis, deals with the issues and challenges that non native English speakers have, and we're looking forward to getting the advice and guidance that you have.

肯，很高兴你今天能加入我们。

Ken, I'm delighted to have you join me today.

你和我已经认识好几年了。

You and I have known each other for a number of years.

谢谢你来到这里分享

Thanks for being here and sharing

你的

your So

让我们从基础层面开始，肯。

let's start at a foundational level, Ken.

你看到非母语者在哪些方面遇到困难？

What are some of the challenges you see non native speakers struggling with?

这真的因他们的性格而异。

Well, it really varies by their personality.

很多人追求完美，一旦不完美就为此担忧，或者通过把一切都写下来并试图背诵来追求完美。

A lot of people try to be perfect, and when they're not perfect, they worry about it, or they try to be perfect by writing everything down and trying to memorize it.

我看到人们面临的另一个问题是不知道如何提升。

Another thing that I see people struggling with is not knowing how to improve.

他们对书籍、课程或播客抱有太多信任，却去做一些根本无法激发他们兴趣或动力的事情；如果你做的不是自己感兴趣或有动力的事，就不可能提升自己。

They have a lot of faith in books or courses or podcasts and doing stuff that's really not interesting or motivating to them, And if you're not doing something that's interesting or motivating, it's not going to improve you.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

关于完美的这一点真的非常重要。

You know, that point about perfection is really, really important.

我认为这不仅是非母语者的问题，而是人人都会遇到的困扰。

And I think this is an affliction, not just that non native speakers have, but everybody has.

每个人都希望自己的表达是正确的。

Everybody feels like they want to communicate right.

我从事这一行已经很久很久了，根本不存在唯一正确的沟通方式。

You know, I've been doing this a long, long time, and there is no one right way to communicate.

当然有更好和更差的方式，但超越完美主义的观念非常重要。

Certainly better ways and worse ways, but this notion of perfection and seeing beyond it is really important.

关于热情的这一点也同样重要。

And that point about passion is also important as well.

这些确实是巨大的挑战。

Those are absolutely big challenges.

除了记日记和练习这些方法之外，你有没有发现一些特别有效的方法可以帮助人们？

Have you found specific things that people do beyond keeping a journal and practicing those things that might help?

我很想知道，当人们面临截止日期、重要演讲或

I'm curious how do you encourage people to be curious when they know they have a deadline or a big presentation or a

一份重要的论文要完成时，你会如何鼓励他们保持好奇心？

big paper to get done?

关键的心态是，从日常经历中学习，而不是从教科书中学习。

Well, the basic mindset to take is to learn the most from your everyday experiences and not from textbooks.

最基本的一点是，你不会记住任何你不喜欢做的事情。

On a really basic level, you're not gonna remember anything that you don't enjoy doing.

语言的全部意义在于实践，而不在于了解。

The whole thing about language is that it's about doing, not knowing.

所以，不管你读了多少书、看了多少规则，如果不真正使用这种语言，你就永远无法将其内化。

So as much as you read and you look at the rules and things like that, until you actually use that language, you're never going to internalize it.

你推荐非母语者使用哪些具体工具来帮助他们变得更自在、更有信心吗？

Do you recommend specific tools that non native speakers leverage to help become more comfortable and confident?

我们口袋里有很多工具，比如手机上的那些应用。

There's a lot of tools that we have in our pocket with our phones, things like that.

为了进行即兴对话，录下自己说话的过程，说一些特定的内容，能让你客观地看到自己的表现。

For a spontaneous conversation, recording yourself making that conversation, saying certain things, will give you an objective view as to what you're doing.

现在我们都对自己的录音感到尴尬，但其实没必要让别人听。

Now we're all embarrassed about how we sound on recordings, but nobody else has to listen to it.

你可以让自己置身于必须做出回应的情境中。

You can say, you can put yourself in a situation where you have to make a response.

这里的关键是不要写下来。

The key thing here is don't write it down.

阅读和口头表达是两种完全不同的技能。

Reading something is a very different skill than saying something.

如果你想能阅读，那就练习阅读。

If you want to be able to read something, then practice that.

如果你想能自发地说话，那就练习说话。

If you want to be able to talk spontaneously, then practice that.

用你的手机来做这件事。

Use your phone to do that.

如果你手里有文件或看到标牌但不确定某些词的意思，可以边走边拍照。

Walk around and take pictures of things if you have a document or see a sign and you're not sure about the words.

用你的手机来记录你的词汇。

Use your phone to keep track of your vocabulary.

有一些应用程序能帮助你记忆，提供句子和例句等。

There are apps that help you memorize it, that give you sentences and examples and things like that.

所以，就拿你的手机来说，充分利用这个工具吧。

So just your phone right there, take full advantage of that tool.

我真的很认为，练习和利用科技能够带来很大的帮助。

I really think this notion of practice and leveraging technology can really help.

很多时候，人们太专注于寻找正确的单词，或者忙着思考自己想说什么，却没花时间去练习。

A lot of times people are so busy fixating on finding the right word or trying to find the time just to think about what it is they want to say, they don't take the time to practice.

而使用科技真的会非常有帮助。

And using technology can be really, really helpful.

结合力求语言准确和表达流畅的理念，我认为给人们提纲而不是逐字逐句地背诵，能产生巨大差异。

Paired with the notion of trying to get the language right and the flow right, I really think giving people outlines rather than word for word makes a big difference.

所以我告诉我的非母语者或客户，如果你需要写下来，只是为了理清思路和语法，这没问题。

So I tell my non native speakers or clients, if you need to write things out just to get the flow and the grammar right, that's okay.

但之后，要从提纲出发，根据提纲进行练习。

But then from that, an outline and practice from the outline.

当我们死记硬背时，不仅增加了需要记忆的认知负担，还固化了表达的方式，这会带来额外的压力。

When we memorize, we not only increase our cognitive load, what we have to remember, but we also have created the right way to say it, and that puts added pressure.

因此，我非常推崇使用提纲。

So I'm a big fan of of using outlines.

你在与你所服务的人合作时，发现提纲很有效吗？

Have you found outlines to be successful in the work that you do with the the folks you work?

当然。

Absolutely.

我认为提纲是做演讲的唯一方式。

I think the outline is the is the only way to do a presentation.

理想的情况是，你能把提纲记在脑子里，清楚自己要说什么。

The ideal thing is to be able to have that outline in your head to know what you're gonna say.

你所看到的最优秀的演讲者，他们脑子里都有这样的提纲，只是依据它来表达，还能灵活调整内容。

The best speakers that you see, they do have that outline in their head, and they're just going from that, and they can move things around.

要达到这种境界需要很长时间，但第一步是把提纲写下来，然后以此为基础练习。

It takes a long time to get to that position, but the first step is writing the outline out, working from there.

我认为这是第一步非常好的选择。

I think it's a really good choice for the first step.

非常好。

Excellent.

你能给我提供两到三个最佳实践吗？这些方法能帮助非母语者更自在一些？

Can you provide me with two or three best practices that you've come across to help non native speakers feel more comfortable?

当然。

Sure.

当然。

Sure.

我认为对非母语者非常有用、且切实可行的一点是，请别人帮忙修改他们的作品，然后认真研究这些修改，并内化这些修订内容。

One of the things I think that's very useful for a non native speaker, a very practical thing that they can all do, is get somebody to edit their work, and then to conscientiously study those edits and internalize the revisions.

没有人能做到完美。

Nobody's going be perfect.

你需要一些润色。

You need some polishing.

即使我作为母语者，也需要有人对我的作品进行修改。

Even I as native speaker, I need some editing on my work.

非母语者需要学会问自己：我在这里哪里做错了？

The thing a non native speaker needs to do is to be able to say, What did I do wrong here?

然后内化这些修改，避免再犯同样的错误。

And then internalize that so it doesn't happen again.

另一件事是彻底放弃你的母语，沉浸在你感兴趣的英语内容中。

Another thing to do is to just cut off your native language and immerse yourself in the English that you find interesting.

如果你能用目标语言（比如英语）获取新闻，那你就在一个非常重要的方面取得了进步。

If you have getting your news if you can do that in the target language, in English or whatever language you're trying to learn, then you're moving forward in a really important way.

你没有沉浸在你母语的电视或媒体内容中。

You're not immersing yourself in the TV or media of your native language.

我们还可以做另一件事，非母语者可以通过它来提升水平：思考用段落进行口语和写作。

Another thing that we can do that non native speakers do to sort of level up is to think about speaking and writing in paragraphs.

我接触的大多数人句子都掌握得很好。

Most of the people that I talk to are really good with sentences.

他们能组合出主语、谓语和宾语。

They can put together a subject, a verb, and an object.

而把内容组织成段落，是更高的一个层次。

Putting it into a paragraph is really the next level up.

你需要有一个开头和结尾，以及其中的支持性论点。

You need to have a beginning and an end, and then the supporting arguments in there.

人们就是这样说话的。

People speak this way.

段落就是这样形成的，当你写文章、报告或类似内容时，这一点也至关重要。

This is how paragraphs happen, and it's also completely critical when you do a writing when you're writing an essay or a report or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

这些都是很好的最佳实践。

Those are great best practices.

拥有结构这个概念确实非常重要，无论是在说话还是写作中，这种超越单句的结构都极为重要。

That notion of having a structure really, really is important, and it's very important speaking as well to just have that structure that's beyond the individual sentences.

我发现一个很有帮助的最佳实践，很想听听你的看法：我的许多学生都非常担心用词不准确。

A best practice that I find helpful, and I'd love to get your opinion on it, is many of my students are so worried about not having the right word.

我建议的是，尽你所能，并且坦然接受用不同的方式重复表达。

And what I suggest is do the best you can and be comfortable repeating yourself in a different way.

所以你可能会提出一个陈述或主张，然后讲述一个故事或举一个例子来强化它。

So you might make a statement, position a claim, but then tell a story or give an example that reinforces it.

如果我第一次没听懂你说的观点，这个故事就能帮助我理解。

So if I didn't understand the point the first time you said it, the story helps me figure it out.

因此，通过重复，不仅为你提供了解释或消除困惑的方式，还能增强听众对你所说内容的记忆。

So by using repetition, not only does it give you a way to clarify or address any confusion, it actually enhances the retention of your audience for what you've said.

你是否发现这种做法是一种有效的最佳实践？

Have you found that as best practice that can be helpful?

当然。

Absolutely.

简化表达，尤其是在口语中，能够用简单的方式说清楚事情。

Simplifying it, especially in speaking, being able to say something in a simple way.

我们谈论最优秀的沟通者时，就是指他们能用非常简单的方式解释科学或技术。

This is what we talk about with the greatest communicators, is they explain science or they explain technology in a very simple way.

对于非母语者来说，他们常常会学习100个最常用的美式英语习语，并试图把它们用在所有句子中。

A lot of times with non native speakers, they learn 100 most commonly used idioms in American English and try to put them in all their sentences.

事情不是这样的。

It doesn't work that way.

熟练而巧妙地使用习语需要多年的练习。

To be able to use an idiom skillfully and cleverly takes years of practice.

说简单点。

Speak simply.

但同时，这也是我要回到好奇心的地方。

But also, this is where I go back to being curious.

留意你周围的人是如何使用这些习语的。

Listen to how the other people around you use those idioms.

在他们谈论商业时，使用体育术语。

Use the sports terminology in their conversation about business.

倾听它，研究它，尝试使用，如果犯了错误，就学会如何提升自己。

Listen to it, study it, try it out, and then if you make a mistake, learn how to move yourself up.

但首先是要简单，以便人们能理解

But first is simple, so that people can understand

你。

you.

当然。

Absolutely.

你提到的关于倾听人们如何使用语言和结构的观点，结构。

The point you made about listening to hear how people use language and use structure, structure.

我想退一步，提醒一下所有母语为这种语言的人。

I wanna take a step back and just remind everybody who happens to be fluent in the language that they're speaking.

我们也有责任，需要思考自己使用的习语和类比，这些可能让来自不同文化、不熟悉我们语言的同事和朋友感到困惑。

We also have a responsibility here, and we need to think about the idioms we use, the analogies we use that might make it difficult for our colleagues, our friends who aren't from our culture and familiar with our language.

在斯坦福商学院，我告诉我的所有学生，在商业沟通中我们必须谨慎使用体育类比。

Here at the GSB, I tell all of my students that we have to be very careful about using sports analogies in our business communication.

这是个必进的投篮，推过终点线，一击制胜。

It's a slam dunk, push it across the goal line, hit it out of the park.

这太棒了。

That's wonderful.

但如果你是非母语者，又不了解这些运动，那你就会处于劣势。

But if you're a non native speaker and you don't know what those games are, you're at a disadvantage.

所以，虽然非母语者可以做很多事来让自己更舒适、更有信心，但作为母语者，我们也有责任，需要格外留意自己的表达方式。

So while there are lots of things that non native speakers can do to become more comfortable and confident, We, as fluent speakers, need to help too by being very conscious of what we we communicate.

关于给非母语者的建议、技巧或最佳实践，你还有什么最后的想法吗？

Any final thoughts you have around tips, tricks, best practices for non native speakers?

我认为非母语者最重要的一点是，他们永远不可能成为母语者，但通过大量练习和增强自信，他们可以非常接近。

I think the most important thing for a non native speaker to remember is that they're not going to be a native speaker, never ever, but they can get pretty close through lots of practice and getting more confident about things.

有时候他们确实需要做到完美，而这时就需要寻求帮助。

There are times when they do need to be perfect, and it's those times they need to get help.

找一位外部编辑。

Get an external editor.

找人指导你的演讲。

Get somebody to coach you on your presentation.

但持续朝着这个目标努力，你会变得非常接近。

But keep working toward that goal, and you'll get pretty darn close.

非常好。

Excellent.

好吧，肯，非常感谢你与我们分享了如此丰富的经验和最佳实践。

Well, Ken, I thank you so much for your vast experience and best practices you've shared with us.

显然，那些希望在写作或口语中更有效地沟通的非母语者可以采取一些措施：利用技术、保持好奇的心态、减轻对自己必须做到完美的压力，而是专注于行动，并运用其他技巧来帮助自己展现出能力和自信。

Clearly, are things that people can do who are trying to communicate more effectively in writing or speaking if they're non natives, using technology, really taking a mindset of curiosity, trying to reduce the pressure they put on themselves to do it right rather than just doing it and using other techniques to help them come across as competent and confident speakers.

我们马上

We'll be right

回来继续我们的对话，但在那之前，我们要先插播一段来自赞助商的广告。

back to finish our conversation, but first we're going to take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.

这些赞助支持了我们节目的制作成本，让我们能够免费为您呈现。

These sponsorships support the cost of making our show, allowing us to bring it to you free of charge.

大家好，我是马特。

Hi, Matt here.

随着我们即将结束

As we wrap up

这一年，我们很多人

the year, a lot of

都在思考我们所造成的影响，以及如何产生更大的影响。

us are thinking about the impact we've made and how we can make an even bigger one.

谈到慈善捐赠，这就不得不提到GiveWell。

When it comes to charitable giving, that's where GiveWell comes in.

十八年来，GiveWell的研究团队一直在研究哪些项目最有效地挽救和改善生命。

For eighteen years, GiveWell's team of researchers has studied which programs most effectively save and improve lives.

他们已从超过15万名捐赠者那里引导了超过25亿美元的资金，证据表明这些资金已挽救了超过30万条生命。

They've directed over $2,500,000,000 from more than 150,000 donors, and evidence suggests those funds have saved over 300,000 lives.

而最棒的是。

And here's the best part.

GiveWell将他们所有的研究免费公开在givewell.org上，并且由于有捐赠者资助其运营，他们不会从您的捐赠中抽取任何费用。

GiveWell makes all of their research free at givewell.org, and they don't take a cut of your donation thanks to donors who sponsor their operations.

要今天做出可抵税的捐赠，请访问givewell.org，选择播客选项，并在结账时输入“Think Fast, Talk Smart”。

To make a tax deductible donation today, go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter Think Fast, Talk Smart at checkout.

请确保他们知道你是从《Think Fast, Talk Smart》节目中了解到GiveWell的。

Make sure they know you heard about GiveWell from Think Fast, Talk Smart.

再次提醒，前往 givewell.org 进行捐赠或了解更多信息。

Again, that's givewell.org to donate or find out more.

我希望你准备好回答我想要在每期播客结尾提出的三个问题。

I hope you're ready to take three questions that I'd like to end each of these podcasts with.

当然。

Sure.

好的。

Alright.

如果你要把你收到过的最好的沟通建议浓缩成一个五到七个词的幻灯片标题，那会是什么？

Let's If you were to capture the best communication advice you've ever received as a five to seven word presentation slide title, what would that title be?

就是我之前说过的。

It's what I said earlier.

语言学习关乎实践，而非知识。

Language learning is about doing, not knowing.

在某个层面上，这听起来很简单，但其实非常深刻。

At one level, that sounds very simple, but that's very, very deep.

这真正切中了你所谈论的一切核心。

It really, really cuts to the point of everything that you've been talking about.

所以谢谢

So thank

你的分享。

you for that.

第二个问题。

Question number two.

你钦佩的沟通者是谁？为什么？

Who is a communicator that you admire and why?

我认为不是某一个特定的人，而是我在斯坦福语言中心工作的所有老师和员工。他们大多不是英语母语者，但他们完全能够在这个商业环境中与各种学生顺利互动，这些学生既有英语母语者，也有非母语者，他们能有效地教授学生所需的语言。

I think it's not one particular person, but all the teachers and the staff that I work with at the Stanford Language Center, they're all well, most of them are non native speakers of English, but they have absolutely no problem working in this business environment with a wide range of students that come into their classrooms, native speakers of English as well as non native speakers of English, to teach them the languages that they need to teach them.

因此，斯坦福这里的教职员工在多样性方面令人惊叹，他们完成工作的能力也非常出色。

So it's the faculty and staff here at Stanford are just amazing for the diversity that they bring and the skill that they have in doing their job.

完全同意。

Totally agree.

看到这些人实际工作，看到他们和学生共同努力让人们的沟通能力得到提升，真的非常棒。

It's it's really cool to see these people in action and to see the results of the work that they and their students do to really make people better communicators.

我最后一个问题给你。

And my final question for you.

从你的角度来看，成功沟通的前三个要素是什么？

What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe from your perspective?

这真的因人而异，但如果我要给出三个每个人都能用上的词，那就是自信、准备和修改。

It really depends on the person, but if I were to give three words that I think everybody could sort of make use of, It would be confidence, preparation, and revision.

是的。

Yes.

这三点让我深有共鸣。

Those resonate very strongly with me.

在我们即将推出的播客中，这些理念会反复出现。

And across the podcast that we will be doing, those ideas will be reflected time and time again.

好吧，肯，我非常享受我们这次的交流。

Well, Ken, I have thoroughly enjoyed our interaction.

我希望听众们能带走一些具体、实用的技巧、工具和最佳实践。

I hope that those listening are coming away with some very specific tips, tools, and best practices that they can use.

而这是我们所有人都需要关注的，以帮助非母语者更有效地沟通。

And it's something that all of us need to focus on to help non native speakers be more effective in their communication.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

这是我的荣幸。

It was my pleasure.

感谢您收听《快速思考，明智表达》的另一期节目，

Thanks for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart,

这档播客。

the podcast.

由斯坦福大学商学院制作。

Produced by Stanford University's Graduate School of Business.

如需更多信息和往期节目，请访问 gsb.stanford.edu 或订阅

For more information and episodes, visit gsb.stanford.edu or subscribe to

欢迎在您收听播客的平台关注我们的节目。

our show wherever you get your podcasts.

在结束之前，我想衷心感谢您的收听。

Before we wrap up, I just wanna say thank you for listening.

听到世界各地的人们如何将这些理念应用到自己的生活中，真的让我深受鼓舞，也激励了为我们制作这档节目的整个团队。

It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show.

如果您想获取更多节目和资源，欢迎关注、订阅并浏览往期对话。

If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations.

我们非常感激您对《快速思考，明智表达》的支持。

We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.