831: 清单！！！

温馨提示：本期节目中含有未经消音处理的粗俗语言。如需收听消音版本，请访问我们的网站thisamericanlife.org获取。

A quick warning, there are curse words that are unbeeped in today's episode of the show. If you prefer a beeped version, you can find that at our website, this americanlife.org.

《人民年鉴》出版于上世纪七十年代中期。很难想象还有比这更古怪的畅销书——这部1400多页厚的红色林肯百科全书，出自一位痴迷世间冷知识的早慧少年之手。书中收录了史上最严重人为灾难专题、最杰出拳击手列传、美国藏宝图指南、著名与恶名昭彰的科学家传记、追溯至古希腊的广告发展史，还有一章讲述1900年某位牧师接管报社一周的故事：他所有版面决策——头版内容、报道选题——都基于'若是耶稣办报会如何选择'的信念。书末附有通讯地址和编者按，向读者征集修订建议并询问他们对书籍内容的喜恶。

The People's Almanac came out in the mid nineteen seventies. It's hard to imagine a more eccentric bestseller. Over 1,400 pages long, a red Lincoln encyclopedia written by an excited and precocious 15 year old who loved all the obscure details of all the knowledge in all the world. There are sections on the greatest man made disasters ever and also on the greatest prizefighters, a guide to buried treasure in The United States, biographies of famous and infamous scientists, a history of advertising going back to ancient Greece, and also a chapter about a minister who took over a newspaper for a week in the year 1900 and made all editorial decisions, what was on the front page, what they covered, based on what he believed Jesus would have done if Jesus had gone to the newspaper game. And at the end of the book was an address, and a note from the authors asking for suggestions for future editions and asking readers to tell them what parts of the book they liked and disliked.

最终我们收到了数千封来信，每一封我都仔细阅读过。

So we eventually received thousands of letters, each of which I read.

大卫·瓦拉津斯基是《人民年鉴》的作者之一。

David Walajinski was one of the authors of The People's Almanac.

正因如此，我得以确认《人民年鉴》中最受欢迎的章节是——

And because of that, I was able to determine that the most popular chapter in The People's Almanac was

清单。各式清单。在浩如烟海的知识中，读者最钟爱这本1400页巨著里的25页清单内容。有些清单很平庸，比如全球15大城市、10座最高建筑、10条最长河流；但也不乏稀奇古怪的：20位私生子出身的歷史名人、15位配偶数量惊人的风流人物。

lists. Lists. Of all the knowledge in the world, people most loved 25 pages out of the 1,400 page book that had some lists. Some of those lists were boring stuff like the world's 15 biggest cities and 10 tallest buildings and 10 longest rivers, but there were weirder lists. 20 historical figures who were born as illegitimate children, 15 people who had an absurd number of spouses.

还有这个在1975年出版时可能略显前卫的清单：20位接受过精神分析的名人。瓦拉津斯基从读者来信中发现，有个清单系列特别受欢迎——

And this one, it was maybe a little more edgy, in 1975 when this was published, 20 celebrities who've been psychoanalyzed. From the letters they got, Walachinski says that they learned that one list that readers really loved was.

那些从未真实存在却至今为人熟知的名人，比如福尔摩斯、超人、神奇女侠、史高治·麦克老鸭。

Famous people who never existed but but live today, like Sherlock Holmes, Superman, Wonder Woman, Scrooge McDuck.

史高治·麦克老鸭严格来说不算人类，但你应该明白这个意思。

Scrooge McDuck, not technically a person, but you get the idea.

而最受欢迎的榜单是九种最爱咬人的犬种。基于此，我们决定创作第一本清单之书。

And the most popular list was nine breeds of dog that bite the most. So based on that, we decided to do the first book of lists.

第一本清单之书成为了更庞大、更荒谬的畅销现象级作品，卖出超300万册，衍生出四部续作、一部短命电视剧和一款桌游。作为七十年代的青少年，我对此类事物毫无兴趣，却记得它曾是本无处不在的必知读物。如今重读时，我发现他们无意间预演了互联网时代的浏览快感。

The first book of lists was an even bigger, even more ridiculously huge bestseller, a pop culture phenomenon. It sold over 3,000,000 copies, had four sequels, a short lived TV spin off, and a board game. I was a teenager in the nineteen seventies. I had no interest in this kind of thing whatsoever, but I remember it being one of those ubiquitous books that you could not help but know about. And looking back on it now, reading the Book of Lists today, I think they accidentally figured out how to give the pleasure of scrolling the internet way before the internet existed.

本质上，它让你在近乎随机的信息流中翻阅，直到某个亮点抓住你的眼球。

Basically, it was a way to leaf through impossibly random stuff till something catchy grabbed your eye.

我们制作了各类清单，都获得了读者响应。有名流清单——比如询问里根最想亲历哪些历史事件；也有纯粹数据型清单——比如按每英里飞行死亡率统计的全球最差航空公司；还有我最爱的注释型清单，需要调研后用段落描述每个条目。

We had different kinds of lists, and people were responding to all of them. We had the celebrity lists, you know, where we would ask Ronald Reagan what are the events in history you wish you could have witnessed. Then there was a straight list that was statistical, you know, what were the worst airlines in the world based on deaths per miles flown. And then my favorite kind, what we call the annotated list, where you'd actually have to do some research and then, put a paragraph describing the entry.

他们做过最火的清单就是这种。在揭晓榜首之前，请先听听它击败了哪些候选清单：比如「15个发生在浴缸里的著名事件」。

The most popular list they ever did was like that. And before I tell you what this list was, I want you to please listen for a second to some of the lists that it had to beat out to be the most popular list. Okay. Here we go. 15 famous events that happened in the bathtub.

16个你从未知晓名称的事物名称。18位名人的大脑及其重量。14位成为计量单位并以他们命名的男性。本杰明·富兰克林关于娶年长女性的八大理由。竞争相当激烈。

16, names of things that you never knew had names. 18 famous brains and what they weighed. 14 men who became units of measurement and the units named after them. Benjamin Franklin's eight Reasons to Marry an Older Woman. A lot of competition there.

那么那份最受欢迎榜单上有什么内容？

So what was in that most popular list?

按受欢迎程度排序的六种性爱姿势，以及每种姿势的优缺点。几十年后，仍有人对我说，非常感谢那份清单，我学到了很多。

Six sexual positions in order of popularity and then the, advantages and disadvantages of each one. Decades later, people still tell me, thank you so much for that list. I learned so much.

或许这本身显而易见，但请说明为何这在七十年代会是件大事。

And maybe this is obvious on its face, but just lay out why that would be such a big deal in the seventies.

我认为之所以重要，是因为当时没人谈论这个话题。印刷品里也找不到相关内容。而且很多人以为性爱姿势只有一种。不。是的。

I think it was a big deal because nobody talked about it. It wasn't in print. And I think a lot of people only thought there was one sexual position. No. Yeah.

哦，没错。你知道，确实存在这样的人。许多向我讲述这份清单如何影响他们的人，都是在青少年时期读到它的。

Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there were people like that. And a lot of the people who would tell me about how it affected them, read it at a time when they were teenagers.

本质上，我只是翻到书中那一页，内容非常基础。真的就是谁在上面的问题。以及他们是躺着、坐着还是站着。每种姿势大概用五句话描述，比如一句优点、一句缺点。非常简洁。

I mean, essentially, I'm just I just opened it up to to to that page in the book, and these are so basic. Like, it literally is just like which person is on top Yeah. And whether they're kind of sort of lying, sitting, or standing. And each position gets five sentences maybe, you know, like a sentence of advantage, a sentence of disadvantage. Like, it's very terse.

总共两页。

It's two pages total.

是啊是啊，又不是《爱经》。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not the Kama Sutra.

大卫·奥拉钦斯基对列表的思考比我们大多数人都深入，他给我讲过一个故事，很好地说明了将事物列入清单的力量。他说，在他成年后的大部分时间里，他一直对世界各地专制政府对其人民所做的可怕事情耿耿于怀，并试图为杂志撰写相关文章，让人们意识到这个问题的重要性。但他始终找不到一个引人入胜的叙述方式。

David Olachinski has thought way more about lists than most of us, and he told me this one story that illustrates how putting something on a list has such power. He said that for most of his adult life, he was kind of obsessed about the terrible things that repressive governments around the world do to their people, and he went to write about it for magazines and convince people how important this was. And he really couldn't figure out how to do that compellingly.

于是在2003年，我想到一个主意：用清单形式呈现。我列出了'十大在世独裁者'。我对这份独裁者排名近乎偏执——我制定了多项评判标准，并对那些迫害或杀害政敌的独裁者额外扣分。

And so in 2003, I got this idea. I'll do it as a list. The 10 worst living dictators. And I was obsessive in in in creating the order of list of worst dictators. I had criteria, different criteria, and then I gave extra credit for for dictators who tortured or murdered their political opponents.

他将这份附有每位独裁者详细介绍的清单发表在《大观》杂志上，这在当时引起了巨大反响，触达了3200万读者。

He published this list with write ups on each dictator in Parade Magazine, which was a big deal at the time, reached 32,000,000 people.

这个专题大受欢迎，我们后来每年都会更新，还成为了封面故事。数百万读者因此接触到了他们原本不会关注的话题。清单形式让人们对一个可能从未想过会感兴趣的领域产生了认知。

And it was so popular that we did it annually and it became a cover story. So millions of people read about this topic they would not otherwise have read about. The list format made accessible to people a subject they wouldn't, didn't know they might be interested in.

这种形式让沉重的话题变得易于接受且具象化——十个你可以明确产生好恶的真实恶人。这就是清单的力量。不过我们生活中大多数清单与此不同，它们往往是我们为自己列出的待办事项。

It made the subject digestible and human. Here were 10 awful human beings you could have feelings about. That's the power of a list. But of course, most of the lists in our lives are different from this. Most are the lists that we write for ourselves.

这很有趣。人们会在那些清单上列出各种各样的东西。

And it's interesting. People put all kinds of things on those lists.

天啊。我感到很紧张。

Oh my god. I feel nervous.

你为什么感到紧张？

Why do you feel nervous?

因为我刚刚翻看我的清单，突然觉得自己像个怪人。

Because I was just looking through my lists, and I just feel like a freak.

这位是艾薇娃·德科恩菲尔德，我们节目的制作人。我在一次员工会议上了解到她那份非常个人化且独特的清单，当时我正谈到瓦拉钦斯基和各种不同类型的清单。在那次会议上，艾薇娃开始谈论她的清单。

This is Aviva DeKornfeld, a producer at our show here. And I learned about the very personal and idiosyncratic list that she keeps in a staff meeting where I talked about Walachinski and different kinds of lists. And at that meeting, Aviva started talking about her lists.

我当时主动分享时，以为所有人都会——比如我开始说我的清单后，其他人就会附和说'对，我也是'，然后他们也会分享自己的清单，这本来应该是个增进感情的时刻。

And so I was offering this kind of assuming everyone I would, like, start saying my list, then everyone else would be, yeah. Yeah. Me too. And then they would share their list, and it would be kind of like this bonding moment.

就是这样

That's what

你以为会发生的事情。

you thought was gonna happen.

是啊，结果完全不是那样。实际情况是，我给最近列的几张清单起了名字，结果所有人都开始大笑，一副'什么鬼'的表情。事实上，我们的同事劳拉还在聊天里发了条消息说'阿维娃的大脑'，后面跟了七个感叹号。虽然都是善意的，但还是感觉有点尴尬。

Yeah. And that's not what happened at all. What happened is that I named, like, a couple of my more recent lists, and then everyone started laughing and was like, what the hell? In fact, Laura, our coworker, messaged in the chat Aviva's brain with, like, seven exclamation points. And it felt like a little I mean, it was all in good spirits, but it felt a little embarrassing.

阿维娃确实会列一些很多人都会列的实用清单，比如想读的书单或给所爱之人的礼物灵感。但在她手机备忘录里，还有一大堆毫无实际用途的清单，纯粹是为了整理她脑海里那些零碎的想法。

Aviva does keep some lists that lots of people keep, practical stuff, like books she wants to read or gift ideas for people she loves. But then on the Notes app of her phone, there's a whole bunch of lists that have no practical purpose at all, but are really just her sort of organizing the stuff that is rattling around in her head.

所以那些整理思绪的清单就像——让我看看——'与我人设不符的事'、'从未做过的寻常事'、'陌生人莫名把我卷入他们事情的时刻'，比如在街上或地铁里。这种事我经常遇到。

So a list that is just like organizing my brain is let me look. Things that are off brand for me or common things I've never done or times strangers have involved me in their business for unclear reasons, like on the street or on the subway. That happens to me all the time.

好，那我们来细看这些清单。'与我人设不符的事'...嗯...念念这条清单。

Okay. So then let's dive into those lists. Things that are off brand for me. Mhmm. Read me that list.

好吧。'我不擅长跳跃'，'服用避孕药不规律'。

Okay. I'm bad at jumping. I'm inconsistent with my birth control.

你是说...你没每天按时吃避孕药？不是。为什么这算人设不符？

You you mean you're not taking your pill every day that you should? No. Why is it off brand?

因为我很有条理。读这些清单的另一件尴尬事是它们太私密了，但无所谓。我不在乎。我不会滑旱冰。我讨厌皮塔饼，尽管我吃素一年并且好几年都是素食者。

Because I'm organized. The other thing that's embarrassing about reading these lists is that they're so private, but whatever. I don't care. I can't rollerblade. I hate pita even though I was vegan for a year and vegetarian for a bunch of years.

我就是不喜欢它们。我不喜欢保龄球。这是新增的。最后一条我真的不想分享但还是会说出来，不过可能不该在广播里说，因为它让我显得很神经质——就是我从未和名人接吻过。而我原以为到现在应该有过。

I just really don't like them. I don't love bowling. That's a new addition. The last one I really don't wanna share but will, but it probably shouldn't be on the radio because it makes me seem really psychotic, which is that I've never kissed anyone famous. And I just assumed I would've by now.

因为你多大了？30岁。所以你吻过很多人？

Because you're how old? 30. And so you've kissed a bunch of people?

是啊，超多。我吻过的最有名的人是比利时曲棍球队的队长，这根本不算有名。

Yeah. A ton. And the most famous person I've ever kissed is the captain of the Belgian field hockey team, which is not famous.

确实，那不算有名。

No. That is not famous.

对，他叫杰伊。

No. Yeah. His name was Jay.

这份清单，连同那些我从未做过的普通事清单——顺便说只有两件事，唱卡拉OK和去好市多，或者记录身体感受情绪的清单，又或是人们称我为神经多样性（尽管我不这么认为）的清单。所有这些清单都是阿维娃用不同方式为自己定义自我的各个部分。

This list, with the list common things I've never done, which, by the way, only has two items on it, karaoke and going to Costco, or the list where I feel the emotions that I feel on my body, or the list times people have referred to me as neurodivergent even though I don't think I am. All these lists are different ways that Aviva's sort of naming parts of herself for herself.

是啊，是啊。我只是想弄清楚我是谁，以及我脑子里到底在想些什么。

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just trying to make sense of who I am and what is going on in my brain.

用清单的形式。

In list form.

没错。因为它如此条理分明、清晰明了。而理解自我的过程，我发现其实非常混乱。

Yeah. Because it's so organized and and clear and clean. And the business of making sense of yourself is I found to be extremely messy.

考虑到这一点，Viva仍然保留着那些陈旧失效的清单，因为它们就像她过去的记录。比如她青少年时期的清单——‘爸爸讨厌的无害事物’或‘我早该知道的事’，还有她的第一份清单‘祖母养老院的见闻’。那是她14岁时每周探望时记录的，试图理解那个世界。通常她不会把这些清单给任何人看。她会先注意到自己身上的某个特点，然后发现第二个相同特征的例子。

With that in mind, Viva still keeps old, defunct lists, because they're like a record of who she was. List from when she was a teenager, like harmless things my dad hates or things I should have known, or her very first list, scenes from my grandmother's nursing home. Made on weekly visits when she was 14, trying to make sense of that world. Normally, she doesn't show these lists to anybody. She'll just notice something about herself, and then she'll notice a second example of the same thing.

她开始收集这些例子，这样她就能盯着清单，试图理解它。而一旦被收集到清单上，这会给你带来什么感觉？

She starts to collect them so she can stare at the list, try to understand it. And the fact that it's collected on a list, what feeling does that give you once it's on the list?

天啊，那就像解脱一样。太棒了，因为它原本一直在我的脑海里乱窜。一旦写在清单上，我就不用再记着它了。

Oh my god. It's like relief. It's so nice because it's just bouncing around in my brain. And so once it's on a list, I don't feel like I have to remember it.

但这不仅仅是‘不用再想它’那么简单。更像是‘不用再为此焦虑’。在写进清单前，你总在纠结——这件事反映了我什么特质？而一旦列在清单上，你就会明白：它的意义就是被列在这张清单上。

But it isn't just like you don't have to think about it. It's like you don't have to worry about it. Like, before you put it on the list, it seems like there's a kind of fretting of, like, what does this mean about me that this is a thing? And then once you put it on the list, you're like, I know what it means. It means it's on this list.

是啊，完全正确。这是真的。就像，我存在，这是关于我的一件事。

Yeah. Totally. That's true. Like, I exist, and this is a thing about me.

今天我们节目的话题是清单。我知道它们能驯服世界的混乱。我必须说，在整理今天到目前为止对你说过的所有内容时，我感到非常清醒。我的做法和我自...嗯，永远以来制作每一个广播故事的方式一样。我做的第一件事就是列出所有可能用到的引语清单。

Today on our program, lists. I know they tame the chaos of the world. I have to say, I feel very aware, in putting together everything that I've said to you so far today. The way I did it is the way I write every radio story I've ever done since, I don't know, forever. The first thing I do is I make a list of all the possible quotes that I might use.

所以这次，我整理了三页单倍行距的引语，来自阿维瓦和大卫·瓦拉钦斯基，最喜欢的引语旁边还标了星号。然后我会盯着清单看，直到灵感突然闪现——这段引语该放开头，这段第二，这段可以收尾。如果没有清单来掌控所有混乱和可能的选择，并理清头绪，我完全不知道该如何撰写广播故事。所以今天，我们来聊聊清单——它们如何统治世界及其中的一切。

So in this case, it was three single spaced type pages of quotes from Aviva and from David Walachinski with asterisks by the quotes I like the most. And then what I do is I stare at the list until it just pops out for me. This quote should come first, and this one's second, and this one can end the thing. I have no idea how to write any radio story without a list to take control of all the confusion and all the possible choices that I could make and make it make sense. So today, lists how they run the world and everything in it.

这里是芝加哥WBEZ电台，《美国生活》节目。我是艾拉·格拉斯。等等，我这里有份清单。第一条：请继续收听。

For WBEZ Chicago, It's This American Life. I'm Ira Glass. And, hold on. I have a list right here. Number one, stay with us.

第二条：请继续收听。第三条：请继续收听。

Number two, stay with us. Number three, stay with us.

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这里是《美国生活》。今天的节目是重播。第一幕：人生清单。让我们以一份旨在作为生活魔法工具、最大化潜力、成就最佳自我的清单开始今天的节目。或者说，至少这份清单本该有这样的效果。

It says American Life. Today's show is a rerun. Act one, list for life. So let's start our show today with a list designed as a kind of magical tool for living your life and maximizing your potential and being your very best self. Or, anyway, that's what this list was supposed to do.

这个故事来自约翰·法西尔。

Story comes to us from John Fassil.

准备好讨论那份清单了吗？当然。你想看看吗？就在这儿，这就是。

You ready to talk about the list? Sure. You wanna see it? It's right. This is it right here.

你打算什么时候问我这件事？

When do you wanna ask me about it?

我正在和弟弟帕特进行Zoom通话，讨论我们另一个兄弟迈克写的清单。我想问他觉得该怎么处理它。这是迈克留给我们最后的文字之一。你认为该怎么处理这份清单？

I'm on a Zoom call with my brother, Pat, talking about a list that was written by our other brother, Mike. And I wanna ask him what he thinks I should do with it. It's one of the last pieces of Mike's writing that we have. What do you think should be done with this list?

我...我不在乎。如果你烧了它，我...我不会难过。也不会生气。我只会说...我只会说，为什么不叫上我一起烧？

I I don't care. If you burned it, I I wouldn't feel sad. I wouldn't be angry. I'd say I'd say, why'd you burn it without me?

我哥哥迈克在2015年去世了。到现在快十年了。天啊。提醒一下可能引发不适，他是自杀身亡的。我们至今不清楚他为什么这样做。

My brother Mike died in 2015. That's almost ten years ago now. Jeez. And, you know, trigger warning and all that, he died because of a suicidal act. It's unclear why he did what he did.

据他室友讲述，当时迈克出现妄想、幻觉，痴迷于外星人。事发突然令人震惊，我和家人开始拼命寻找各种线索试图理解这一切——这就引出了那份清单。迈克在高二前的暑假写了它，标题是'成功目标'，用双下划线写在长方形海报板上，列了16条人生准则。说实话，都是些老套的兄弟会式格言。

There were stories his roommates told about paranoia, hallucinations, Mike becoming obsessed with aliens. It was also sudden and shocking that my family and I started grasping around for anything, trying to make it all make sense, which brings me to the list. Mike wrote the list the summer he was about to be a sophomore in high school. 16 principles to live his life by, titled goals for success, double underlined on a rectangular piece of poster board. They were corny broisms, if I'm being honest.

立下承诺，无私奉献，团结一致，前所未有地凝聚。如你所见，迈克是个真正的优等生，A型人格。

Make a commitment. Be unselfish. Create unity. Come together as never before. As you can see, Mike was a real overachiever, type A type.

作为球员、个人和学生，每日精进。坚韧不拔，严于律己，行事端正，绝不妥协。

Improve every day as a player, person, and student. Be tough. Be self disciplined. Do it right. Don't accept less.

他曾是高中橄榄球队队长，全优学生，全力以赴，充满热情，杜绝失误，不自我设限。他把这份清单挂在衣柜门上，正对床铺，这样清晨醒来第一眼就能看到：志在必得，始终如一，培养领导力，勇于担当。我第一次注意到这份清单，是去迈克卧室偷他内裤时——我总是忘记洗衣服，而迈克从不会。

He was captain of the high school football team, straight A student, give great effort, be enthusiastic, eliminate mistakes, don't beat yourself. He hung the list on his closet door, facing his bed, so that when he woke up in the morning, the first thing he saw was, expect to win, be consistent, develop leadership, be responsible. I first noticed the list when I went into Mike's bedroom to steal a pair of his boxers. I was always forgetting to do my laundry. Mike always did his.

我对这份清单的感受立刻变得复杂起来。感觉它仿佛在审判我。作为家中长子，我却总觉得迈克更成熟。他是扶轮社先生，是日程规划先生；而我是两度被捕先生，是躲在树林里用易拉罐吸大麻、可能已对肺部造成永久伤害的先生。

And my feelings about the list were immediately complicated. I felt like it was somehow judging me. I was the oldest of my siblings, but to me, Mike always felt older. He was mister Rotary Club, mister scheduled out his daily routine. I was mister been arrested twice, mister smoking weed out of an aluminum can and probably doing irreparable damage to my lungs in the woods.

迈克深知自己比我优秀。他甚至在英语课上写了首诗表达对我的失望。没开玩笑，诗名叫《第二次机会》。那时我憎恶这份清单。

And Mike knew he was better than me. He even wrote a poem in English class about how disappointed he was in me. I'm not kidding. It was titled Second Chances. Back then, I resented the list.

我可能还为此嘲笑过他——这就是我们的相处模式，尽管我们很亲密。但在他去世后，这些信条却成了我应当践行的准则，因为那时的我正在堕落。迈克离世时24岁，我26岁，却始终无法振作。

I probably made fun of him about it, because that was the nature of our relationship, even though we were close. But after he died, I actually saw these principles as something I should live up to, because at that point, I was spiraling. Mike was 24 when he died. I was 26. I couldn't get myself together.

酗酒、抑郁、对宇宙持久而无谓的愤怒。原版清单被裱了起来，我向父母讨来挂在公寓门口，希望这些戒律能潜移默化影响我。它在那里停留了一段时间，我偶尔瞥见时，仍会感到自己相形见绌。

Drinking, depression, a simmering, futile anger at the universe. The original had been framed, and I asked my parents if I could have it, and hung it up in my apartment by the front door. I thought maybe its commandments might rub off on me. And there, it stayed for a bit. I'd glance at it every once in a while, and feel again like I was falling short.

于是几年后，我把它取了下来。我把它塞进了衣柜最里面。那种治疗师候诊室里刻意营造的虚伪正能量让我特别烦躁。但我又舍不得扔掉它，所以才打电话给帕特，想最终决定怎么处理。

So after a couple of years, I took it down. I shoved it in the back of my closet. It just bothered me, the toxic positivity therapist waiting room posterness of it all. But I also couldn't bear to get rid of it, which is why I called up Pat to finally figure out what to do with it.

随便吧，我我我觉得这份清单肯定被诅咒了。你可以留着它。如果这能让你好受些，我我我可不想跟这份清单扯上任何关系。

Anything, I I I would think the list would be cursed. So you can keep it. If it makes makes you feel better, I I don't want anything to do with the list.

帕特是迈克在世上最亲近的人。他比迈克小两岁，而迈克又比我小一岁半。关于这份清单，我和帕特连最基本的共识都达不成。他的字迹特别工整，看着清单时最让我印象深刻的就是他工整的字迹。

Pat was the closest person to Mike in the world. He's two years younger than Mike, who is a year and a half younger than me. Pat and I can't even agree on the most basic things about the list. And he had neat handwriting, like, that was one thing that struck me looking at the list is is how neat his handwriting is.

看起来不工整啊。至少我不觉得。

Doesn't look neat. Not to me.

是吗？为什么？

Yeah. Why?

有直线吗？我们看的是同一张照片吗？

Are there straight lines? Are we looking at the same photo?

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

不，那不算整洁。这才叫整洁。看看那个k，他甚至连i上的点都没打。

No. That's not neat. That's neat. Look at the k. He didn't even dot the i's.

但他始终没给i打点。这很能说明问题。

But he's consistently not dotting his i's. That's that says something.

说明他从来没学过怎么写字母I？

That he never learned how to write the letter I?

帕特在清单中发现了一些我也感受到但无法确切描述的东西。你认为这份清单在他的死亡中扮演了什么角色？

Pat saw something in the list that I also felt, but I couldn't necessarily name. What role do you think the list played in his in his death?

我是说，清单本身没有直接作用，但它反映了他的心理状态——这种心理状态对他的死亡起了决定性作用，展示了他所感受到的责任类型。它揭示了他是如何给自己施加压力的。里面没有任何关于自我关怀的内容，也没有忠于自我的部分。它充分展现了他当时的心理困境和使他深陷其中的思维模式，正是这些让他病得很重。

I mean, the list didn't play a role, but it's a reflection of his psychology, which played every role in his death and shows you the type of responsibility he felt. It shows you the type of pressure he put on himself. There's nothing about self care in it. And there's nothing about being true to yourself either. It shows you a lot of what was going on with him and this mindset that he got trapped in and that made him very sick.

当迈克在宾州州立大学读大二时，他开始出现妄想症状，几乎不睡觉。但即便在挣扎中，他也没有告诉任何人。他继续去上课。室友们注意到了，正在商量如何帮他寻求帮助。我个人认为——这只是我的看法——迈克不想被人发现自己的状况。

When Mike was a sophomore at Penn State, he started experiencing delusions, and he was barely sleeping. But if he felt like he was struggling, he didn't tell anyone. He kept going to class. His roommates noticed, and they were talking about how to get him help. And I think, this is just my opinion, I guess, that Mike didn't wanna be found out.

我的意思是，过去我曾把这份清单与迈克的心态联系起来，就像...如果他正在受苦，他不会是那种愿意展现脆弱的人？

I I mean, in the past, I've connected the list to Mike's mindset, as in, like, he was not somebody who's gonna be vulnerable if he was suffering?

不，他不是。

No. He was not.

有没有哪些要点让你特别印象深刻？

Are there any bullet points that stand out to you in particular?

有很多。消除错误。这个简直蠢透了。消除错误，我们做到了。

There's a bunch. Eliminate mistakes. That's that's one of the ones that's just so stupid. Eliminate mistakes, we meet.

你做不到。所以它们才叫错误。

You can't. That's why they're mistakes.

是啊。创造团结。空前团结。我是说，他可不只是想让人们前所未有地团结起来。

Yeah. Create unity. Come together as never before. I mean, you don't he he's not just trying to get people to come together as never before.

我喜欢这条。这让我想起他是个很好的团结者。你知道，他能跨越所有人为的社交圈交朋友。他去世后，你有想过那份清单吗，还是说...

I like that one. That reminds me of he was a good unifier. You know, he had friends across the all the arbitrary social clicks. After he passed, did you think about the list at all, or did you

直到我去参加足球晚宴听里基先生讲话前，我都没怎么想过这事。之后我非常愤怒，对那份清单也相当恼火。

I didn't give it a lot of thought until I went to the football banquet and heard mister Ricky speak, and then I got pretty angry. And then I was pretty annoyed at the list.

2018年队长之一、2009年加纳谷毕业生迈克·法西尔，完美诠释了可塑之才的品质。

One of the captains of our 2018 and a 2009 Garner Valley graduate, Mike Facile, embodied the qualities of the coachable player.

那是迈克的高中橄榄球教练——如果你听不出他的声音的话——他在2016年的一场宴会上以我兄弟的名字重新命名了一个奖项。

That's Mike's high school football coach, in case you can't just tell from his voice, renaming an award after my brother at a banquet in 2016.

迈克制定并分享了一份成功目标清单，16条他誓言坚守并作为人生指南的标准。其中包括做出承诺、无私行事。

Mike created and shared a list of goals for success, 16 standards that he vowed to uphold and to use as a compass to guide his path. They were make a commitment, be unselfish.

这确实是这份清单成为传奇的时刻，它成了人们纪念我兄弟的方式。教练自费将这份成功目标清单专业装裱起来，这就是我手头那份副本。他还在我们高中的健身房悬挂了清单复件，旁边配着迈克身穿橄榄球装备、神情坚毅的照片，以此激励后人，对此我深表感激。他倾注了如此多心血来纪念迈克。

This is really the moment the list passed into lore, when it became the way my brother was remembered. The coach paid to have goals for success professionally matted and framed. That's the copy that I have. He also hung a replica of the list in our high school's weight room next to a photo of Mike in football gear with his tough game face on to inspire future generations, which I appreciated. He was putting so much into memorializing Mike.

但后来，我开始担心看到它的孩子们是否会像我当初那样用这些标准来评判自己。

But later, I started worrying about the kids who saw it and whether they might judge themselves by it the same way that I had.

我们希望球员们能恪守本分，并相信'事在人为'。我们希望他们成为模范公民、模范运动员和模范儿子。本质上，我们希望他们都能像迈克·法西尔那样。

We want our players to do what you're supposed to do and believe if it is to be, it's up to me. We want them to be model citizens, model athletes, and model sons. In essence, we want them to be like Mike Facile.

教练接着描述了迈克的遭遇。他说迈克是从宿舍四楼阳台坠落的，并称这是场意外——这个说法来自我父母。他们当时是这么描述的。但迈克不是失足坠落，他是主动跳下去的。

The coach goes on to describe what happened to Mike. He says that he fell from the Fourth Floor balcony of his dorm, and that it was an accident, which he got from my parents. That was how they framed it. But Mike didn't fall. He jumped.

这份清单依然让我感到悲伤，但正是它开始让我愤怒。对我来说，这种对外表的痴迷正是我们所在社区和家庭的毒性特质。

The list makes me still makes me feel sad, but that was when the list started making me feel angry. To me, it's like this obsession with image that is such a toxic quality of the community that we're from and the family that we're from.

我们外表或许光鲜，但酗酒和精神问题在我的童年中占据了很大部分。你不需要知道细节，只需明白那是一团混乱。就连家里的金童也未能幸免。当我深陷混乱挣扎时，迈克却试图控制它，通过追求完美来建立秩序。

We may have looked good from the outside, but alcoholism and mental illness family and were a big part of my childhood. You don't need to know the specifics, just know that it was chaos. And not even Mr. Golden Child was spared from it. But where I struggled and flailed and totally embodied all that chaos, Mike tried to contain it, to impose order on it, to fix it by being perfect.

这就是清单的本质——他追求完美的具象化表现。至少帕特是这么看的。

And that's what the list is, a manifestation of his drive to be perfect. That's how Pat sees it, anyway.

这份清单让我痛苦，因为它展现了创伤对迈克的影响，而现在大人们却像炫耀勋章般挥舞着它。其实他做过很多让我骄傲的事——我宁愿人们记住这些，而非他强加给自己的疯狂压力。

It's painful for me, the list, because it's about what trauma did to Mike, and now these adults are waving it around like it was some sort of thing to be proud of with him. And it's, there's a lot of things that I'm very proud of that he did. You know, I'd rather those things be remembered than this insane pressure that he put on himself.

你希望人们记住他的哪些方面？具体是哪些事？

What do you wish he was remembered for? What are the things you want him remembered for?

我觉得就是他真实的样子。真的没什么可羞愧的。他并非校园模范生——我们曾一起卖大麻，几乎供应了整个橄榄球队。

I think just who he was, really. I mean, there's really nothing to be ashamed of. But like, he wasn't this model person like in school. Like we sold weed together. Like we provided pretty much the entire football team with weed.

我们当时搞了点小生意。挺有意思的，不算坏事。这也是事实。无论是否有趣，我只希望真相被记住。

We had like a little business thing going on. Like, it was funny. It wasn't bad, it was funny. Like, it's also just the truth. Whether it's funny or not funny, you know, I just want the truth remembered.

不想处理这些关于迈克的虚假故事。当我在宴会上，他们把支票颁给了获奖的孩子，我和爸爸在一起，孩子走过来，爸爸对他说，一定要把这钱花在别人身上。迈克就会这么做。我看着

Don't want to have to deal with these fake stories about Mike. When I was at the banquet, and they gave they gave a check to the kid that won his award, And dad and I'm with dad, and kid comes up, and and dad dad says to him, goes, make sure you you spend this on other people. That's what Mike would've done. I look at the

孩子——那不是

kid- That's not

他会做的事。

what would've done.

我说完后看着爸爸说，你在说谁？说迈克吗？然后我看着那孩子心想，兄弟，我哥肯定会把这钱花在最蠢的东西上。

What I said, and I looked at dad and I go, Who are you talking about? Talking about Mike? And then I look at the kid and I'm just like, dude, my brother would've spent this on the dumbest shit.

行了吧？你爱怎么

Alright? You do it you do

处理就怎么处理那笔钱，孩子。去玩得开心点。

it at you do whatever you want with that money, kid. Go have fun.

真的吗？你真这么说了？是啊。

Like Really? You said that? Yeah.

我是说，他本来会的

I mean, he would've

他本该拥有那笔钱。他他既贪婪又不善理财。确实。

He would've that money. He was he was greedy and also bad with money. Yeah.

他他他总会他总会买那种，比如400副太阳镜，然后，比如，不小心把它们忘在车顶上弄丢。

He he he would he would buy, like, a 400 pair pair of sunglasses and then, like, accidentally leave them on top of a car and lose them.

他不是还在车里装了个低音炮吗

Didn't he put a subwoofer in car

没错那个低音炮超棒。懂吗？那个低音炮超划算而且而且特别适合那辆掀背车。那简直太疯狂了。

too The some subwoofer was awesome. Okay? The subwoofer was such a deal and and perfectly for the the hatchback. And that is really mad.

这份清单不仅忽略了迈克的缺点，还遗漏了他最闪光的地方。他热情慷慨，特别逗趣。

The list doesn't just leave out Mike's flaws. It also misses really the best stuff about him. He was warm, generous, extremely goofy.

他他充满好奇心，这是他非常可贵的品质。他他觉得人们特别有趣，所以喜欢倾听。

He was he was curious, and that was a really good quality that he had. He he found people really interesting, so he liked to listen.

保持好奇心会是这里很好的一个品质。

Be curious would be a good one to be on here.

是的。我同年级的孩子们会来找我，给我讲迈克的故事，当他们刚加入足球队时，觉得格格不入，因为高年级学生很混蛋。他们说迈克会过来安慰鼓励他们。我还记得阿利亚·普拉莫拉说过，他们约会时迈克和她祖母关系很好，会陪她祖母看电视，大概是游戏节目之类的，可能是《命运之轮》。

Yeah. Kids from my grade, they come up to me and they tell me stories about Mike when they started on the football team and they felt they didn't belong there because the older kids were dicks. And they said my brother would come around and he would comfort them and he encourage them. And then I remember hearing from Aliyah Pramola, and she said, when they were dating, Mike had a great relationship with her grandmother, and he would watch TV with her grandmother. I think it was like game shows or something, maybe it was Wheel of Fortune.

他就那样陪她看电视，闲聊家常。是的，这些故事让我感到骄傲，因为它们反映了他是怎样的人。他是个受人喜爱的好人，这些正是我想铭记的。

And he would just watch TV with her, and they would shoot the shit. Yeah, those are the stories that like I'm proud of, because they're a reflection of who he was. He was a good guy that people enjoyed, and that's the kind of stuff I wanna remember.

去年，帕特写信给我们高中的足球教练，请他利用这份清单提高人们对自杀的认识。他让教练在清单底部加了一行字：脆弱中蕴含着巨大力量，因为克服恐惧、向他人展现真实自我需要勇气。最近，我和妻子搬进新公寓后，我决定再次挂起这份清单。它就挂在我的家庭办公室里。

Last year, Pat wrote to the football coach at our high school and asked him to use the list to spread awareness about suicide. He got him to add a line to the bottom of it. It says, there is great strength in vulnerability, as it takes courage to push through the fear and share one's true self with others. Recently, after my wife and I moved into our new apartment, I made a decision to hang up the list again. It's in my home office.

现在变成我每天看着它了，我不再感到抵触。或许它还是让我有点不自在，好吧？但我能客观看待它了。我不觉得被它评判。有些条目我真心认同，比如'创造团结'就是个美好的理念。

Now I'm the one looking at it every day, and I don't resent it anymore. Maybe it still makes me feel a little weird, okay? But I just I see it for what it is. I don't feel judged by it. And some of the lists, I'm genuinely down with, like create unity is a beautiful idea.

它让我想起迈克最好的一面。但最主要的是，我喜欢看着弟弟的笔迹。

It reminds me of the best of Mike. But mostly, I just like looking at my brother's handwriting.

约翰·富西尔是本节目《Snap Judgment》的高级制作人。他的故事由肖恩·科尔制作。接下来节目：100多只狗和一只巨熊及其仇敌清单。稍后继续，芝加哥公共电台节目即将回来。

John Fusil, he's a senior producer at the show Snap Judgment. His story was produced by Sean Cole. Coming up, over 100 dogs and one giant bear and its list of enemies. That's in a minute. Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

艾拉·格拉斯讲述的美国生活。今天的节目是重播，列出了他们如何驯服世界的混乱。

Just American life from Ira Glass. Today's program has a rerun, lists how they tamed the chaos of the world.

这份清单记录了我家狗狗生命中遇到的所有狗，按不同标准进行了分类。

This list is all the dogs in my dog's life, kind of segmented by different criteria.

这是博比·肖尔伍德。他和我们的一位制作人克里斯·本达雷夫是朋友。他正在给克里斯看他手机里保存的社区狗狗名单。

This is Bobby Shorewood. He's friends with one of our producers here, Chris Bendarev. He's showing Chris a list that he keeps on his phone of neighborhood dogs.

我们有'午餐盒'，一只穿着青绿色背心的奶油色苏格兰梗；还有'维吉尔'，某种贵宾混血犬，但我叫它小炸鸡狗，主人长得像我朋友奥托。等等，什么是小炸鸡狗？就是有些贵宾犬有紧致的棕色卷毛，看起来完全像炸鸡。

We've got Lunchbox, who's a cream Scottie with a turquoise vest. We've got Virgil who is kind of some kind of doodle dog, but I said little fried chicken dog, and the owner looks like my friend, Otto. Wait. What is little fried chicken dog? Like, some doodles have tight, curly brown hair fur, and it looks exactly like fried chicken.

所以这只狗看起来就像一块会走路的炸鸡。

So this dog literally looks like a walking piece of fried chicken.

博比保留这份清单是因为他住的地方有太多狗了。清单上有130只狗。他的记性不是特别好，而且他确信人们能看出你是否不知道他们家狗的名字——如果你用这样的话来搪塞：

Bobby keeps this list because there are so many dogs where he lives. There's a 130 dogs on this list. His memory isn't always the greatest, and he's convinced that people can tell if you don't know their dog's name, and you're faking it by saying things like,

'他/她今天怎么样？'或者'你家小狗好吗？'你必须找到他是

how's he or she doing today? Or how's your puppy? You gotta find He is

不太喜欢那种潜在的尴尬。

not into the potential awkwardness of that.

实际上

Actually

好吧，为了说明情况，他确实也有这样的人员名单，用来记住只见过一次的朋友和同事的配偶以及他们的孩子。但对于狗狗名单，他还发现给所有狗狗排名很有帮助。所以他家狗狗Chewy最喜欢的排在最前面，最不喜欢的排在最后。

And, okay, just for context, he does have a list of people like this too, to remember the spouses of friends and coworkers that he's met just once and people's kids. But the dog list, he also finds it helpful to rank all the dogs. So his dog Chewy's favorites are at the top, and his least favorites are at the bottom.

比如有些狗狗会欺负Chewy，我们就把它们排在名单末尾，这样我们就知道，嘿，这只就是欺负Chewy的家伙。你可能得把那名字消音处理。

Like, are some dogs that bully Chewy, so we throw them at the bottom of the list, and then we know, hey. This one is his who beats up Chewy. You might wanna bleep that name.

为了看看实际效果，克里斯跟着鲍比去了狗狗公园。没过多久他们就陷入了手腕揉捏的境地。

To see how this works in practice, Chris followed Bobby to the dog park. And it doesn't take long before they get into a wrist kneading situation.

我肯定认识那只狗。那边那只高大的贵宾犬。给我讲讲你在做什么。我看到一只大个子，我确信Chewy以前在这个狗狗公园遇到过它。让我看看。

I definitely think I recognize that dog. The tall doodle over there. Walk me through what you're doing. So I see a big boy I'm sure Chewy's run into at this dog park before. Let me see.

正在滚动查看。

Scrolling.

他在手机上滑动列表，直到找到狗狗公园的板块，寻找有描述的狗狗。

He scrolls down the list on his phone till he gets to the dog park section, searching for a dog with a description.

棕色卷毛狗。是啊，我也不知道。

Shaggy brown doodle. Yeah. I don't know.

他一无所获。得把这只狗加进清单。博比完全不明白其他狗主人是怎么做到的，能记住所有狗狗。虽然我觉得很可能其他人记名字也不比他强，只是他们不在乎罢了。

He finds nothing. He'll have to add that one to the list. Bobby has no idea how other dog owners do it, keep track of all the dogs. Though I think it's entirely possible that other people are no better with the names than he is, but they just don't care.

哦，太好了。它真可爱。

Oh, good. He's a cutie.

当他与克里斯回到房子时，他们遇到了邻居家的狗，不知怎么这只狗还没在清单上。

When he and Chris get back to the house, they run into a neighbor's dog who somehow wasn't on the list yet.

不过我要把它加进清单。等等，其实我遇到过那只狗很多次了。它总是表现得很友好。就像，你懂的。

I'm gonna add it to the list, though. Wait. Actually, I've actually bumped into that dog many times. He always says he's friendly. And it's like, yeah, know.

我们差不多见过十次了。你觉得它不记得你？我不知道，真不知道。不过那家伙确实需要一份清单。

Like, we've we've met, like, 10 times. You think he doesn't remember you? I don't know. I don't know. That guy needs a list, though.

你知道吗？

You know?

第二幕，目标名单。有些名单你绝对不想上榜。不久前的一个感恩节，M邀请人们到他家做客，他们亲切地称那里为'乡间别墅'，因为那是在俄罗斯城外。这就是俄罗斯人用的词。

Act two, target list. There's some list you definitely do not wanna be on. One Thanksgiving, not long ago, M had people come stay with him at a house they affectionately call the dacha, because it's out of the city in a Russian. That's just the word Russians use.

我们确实叫它乡间别墅。

We totally call it the dacha.

M是em Gessen。他们为《纽约时报》撰写关于俄罗斯的文章，也出书。感恩节后的第二天，他们的两位客人离开去参加自己的庆祝活动。剩下的四五个客人去远足了，实际上是爬附近的一座山，坡度挺陡的。

M is em Gessen. They write about Russia for The New York Times and in books. And the day after Thanksgiving, two of their guests left for some of their celebration. And a bunch of the remaining guests, four or five people, went on a hike. Pretty vertical one, actually, up a nearby mountain.

他们到达了一个很高的地方。

So they get to a spot way up high.

是啊，那是个观景点，很小。我们都站得很近，眺望着卡茨基尔山和我们住的小镇，然后我们中有两个人掏出了手机。

Yeah. It's an overlook point. It's pretty tiny. We're all standing pretty close together, looking out at the Catskills and the little town where we live, and then two of us pulled out our phones.

人之常情嘛，你能承受多少自然风光？

As one does, how much nature can you take?

我们俩都看到一则新闻，说当天早上离开的一位朋友被宣布为外国代理人。

And both of us saw a news item that one of the friends who had left that morning had been declared a foreign agent.

外国代理人。换句话说，俄罗斯政府刚刚把他列入了官方不待见人员名单。外国代理人可不是什么好身份。

Foreign agent. In other words, the Russian government just put him on an official list of people that it is not very fond of. Foreign agent is not a good thing.

这是俄罗斯政府几乎每周五都会做的事。

And this is something that the Russian government does almost every Friday.

他们会发布一份外国代理人名单。

They put out a list of foreign agents.

没错。这就像一场诡异的围观游戏，看谁又成了外国代理人。

Right. It's it's like this weird, weird spectator sport to see who is now a foreign agent.

确实诡异。就像奥斯卡提名公布时的阴森版本，你懂吗？

It's weird. It's like a it's like a sinister version of, like, when Oscar nominations come out or something. You know?

其实这个比喻挺贴切，因为就像奥斯卡提名公布后，你总得猜测其中每个人会有什么结局。

Actually, that's that's not a bad simile because, you know, when Oscar nominations come out, then you have to wonder what what's going to be the outcome for any one of these.

是的。

Yeah.

对于外国代理人来说，情况有点类似。被列入外国代理人名单意味着你被标记了，明白吗？你在我们的监控范围内。我们可能会对你提起刑事诉讼，后果要严重得多。

And with foreign agents, it's it's a little bit like that. Part of being on the list of foreign agents is that you're put on notice. Right? You're on our radar. We may launch a criminal case against you, has much harsher consequences.

哦，你可能会从这个名单升级到更糟的名单上去。

Oh, you can graduate from this list to worse lists.

没错。他们最终会出现在其他名单上，比如通缉名单，或者有人会无限期地保持外国代理人身份，但这非常令人不快。这在某种程度上重塑了你的世界。

Yes. They end up on other lists like the wanted list, or somebody just stays a foreign agent indefinitely, but it's extremely unpleasant. It it sort of reconfigures your world.

所以他们当时在山上。其中一个俄罗斯人用手机看到消息，发现他们前一天晚上还共进感恩节晚餐的朋友，现在成了外国代理人。

So they're out on this mountain. Em and one of the other Russians reads this on their phones that their friend who they just had Thanksgiving dinner with the night before is now a foreign agent.

于是我们俩同时念出了他的姓氏——维纳夫金。这种情况在我们之间其实发生过，就是某个周五我们掏出手机，看到一个名字，然后直接念出来，因为不用说‘维纳夫金被列为外国代理人’这种话——我们知道周五意味着什么。

So we both say his last name, Vynavkin. And this is something that's actually happened before between the two of us, where we just take out our phones on a Friday, see a name, and say the name because you don't have to say, you know, Vinayevkin has been named a foreign agent because we know it's Friday.

艾姆说俄罗斯现在正处于一个‘名单时代’。我们本周决定重播这期节目的原因之一是，特朗普总统正在与弗拉基米尔·普京会面，后者是臭名昭著的‘名单制造者’，他把名单作为行使权力的重要工具。艾姆指出，俄罗斯当前的‘名单时代’始于普京创建外国代理人名单时——那要追溯到2012年他第二次就任总统并开始镇压异见的时候。最初名单上只有组织，包括人权团体和媒体机构。

Eim says Russia is now in an age of lists. One of the reasons that we thought to rerun this episode this week is that president Trump is meeting with Vladimir Putin, who's a notorious list maker, He uses lists as an important way that he exercises power. And then says that Russia's current age of lists started when Vladimir Putin created the list of foreign agents. This is back when he first took the presidency for a second time in 2012 and started clamping down on dissent. At first, it was just organizations on the foreign agents list, human rights groups, media outfits.

大约三年半前，他们开始将人名列入清单。俄罗斯的外国代理人法实际上是以美国1930年代的外国代理人法为蓝本。两国法律的关键区别之一在于：在美国，要成为外国代理人，你必须确实为外国政府机构工作或代表其行事，并且需要主动登记列入名单。而在俄罗斯，政府会直接将你列入名单，宣布你为外国代理人，然后你就成了其中一员。

And then three and a half years ago, they started adding the names of people to the list. Russia actually modeled his foreign agent law on an American foreign agent law that dates in the nineteen thirties. One key difference between the two laws, among many, in America, to be a foreign agent, you actually have to be working for or acting on behalf of a foreign government organization, and you put yourself on the list. You register as a foreign agent. In Russia, the government just puts you on a list, calls you a foreign agent, and voila, you are one.

M指出，普京政府使用这份清单的方式，正是他近期行事风格的典型体现。

M says this list, the way the Putin government's been using it, are typical of the way he's operating these days.

这非常官僚主义。所有这些清单都有奇怪的命名，对吧？比如外国代理人名单、不受欢迎组织或不友好国家。例如，美国就被列为不友好国家。

It's, like, very bureaucratic. And so all these lists have weird nomenclatures. Right? It's, foreign agents list or undesirable organizations or unfriendly countries. So The United States, for example, is an unfriendly country to

俄罗斯。没错。

Russia. Right.

他们的实际意思其实是死敌。

What they mean is, like, mortal enemy.

他们非得把世界划分为友好国家和不友好国家，还非要白纸黑字列成清单，这实在令人匪夷所思。

It's so weird that they feel compelled to divide off the world into the friendly countries and unfriendly countries that they actually have to write it down on a list.

说得好。这体现了一个自视为被围困堡垒的国家意识形态，与极度官僚化的自我认知的结合。所有事物都必须分类归档，要么写在纸上，要么录入Excel表格。俄罗斯这种复苏的极权主义，其核心正是官僚体系——官僚主义是其坚硬内核，因此清单才如此重要。

That's a great point. I mean, it's a very you know, it's a combination of a of a country that that has the ideology of a fortress under siege and a country that has, like, a deeply, deeply bureaucratic self understanding. So everything has to be somehow classified and put down on paper or, you know, in an Excel table. This resurgent totalitarianism in in Russia, it's really focused on the bureaucracy. Like, the bureaucracy is it's it's hard at its it's it's it's core, and that's why lists are so important.

你在这份名单上吗？

Are you on this list?

我不在。我在另一份更糟的名单上。

I'm not. I'm on a different list, a worse list.

那是什么名单？

What list is that?

我在通缉名单上，因为我涉及一桩刑事案件。

I'm on the wanted list because there's a criminal case against me.

M说，被列入这些名单之一会将你从正常世界抛入一个怪异模糊的过渡地带或炼狱，那里一切都变得不同且更令人忧虑，因为接下来会发生什么并不明确。但可以确定的是，这是一种永久性的身份转变。我们今天的节目是关于名单的。作为节目的一部分，我们想听听那些被列入目标名单的人讲述过这种不安生活的感受。艾玛同意联系一些人谈谈此事，特别是谈谈被列入外国代理人名单是什么体验。

M says that being put on one of these lists throws you out of the normal world and into this weird undefined limbo or purgatory where things are different and more worrisome because it's unclear what's gonna happen next. What is clear is that it's a permanent status change. Our program today is about lists. And as part of that, we wanted to hear from people who are on a target list about what it's like to live that disquieting life. And Emma agreed to reach out to some to talk about it and talk especially about what it's like to be on the foreign agent list.

外国代理人名单很有意思，因为被列入该名单可能意味着各种不同的情况。可能什么事都没有，也可能情况会变得非常糟糕。以下是艾玛整理的内容。

The foreign agent list is interesting because being on that list really can mean such a wide range of things. Like, maybe it'll be nothing, or maybe things will get a lot worse. Here's what Em put together.

几年来我一直在关注外国代理人名单的增长。现在名单上约有400人，其中大多数居住在俄罗斯境外，我可能认识其中一半人。这也是我对这份名单有些着迷的原因之一。被列入名单的那天会改变你的一生。

I've been watching the foreign agent list grow for a few years. It's now about 400 people, most of them living outside of Russia, and I probably know half of them. That's one reason I've been sort of obsessed with the list. It's a day that changes your life.

就在我切火鸡的时候，我记得那是我连续切的第四只火鸡。

Just I was cutting the turkey, and I believe that it was I was in the midst of cutting my fourth turkey in a row.

这是艾莉亚，我的朋友，她在感恩节后的周五被列入了名单。是那个周末的第四只火鸡，还是当天的第四只？

This is Elia, my friend who was put on the list the Friday after Thanksgiving. Fourth turkey that weekend or fourth turkey that day?

可能是那个周末。然后我看到妻子朝我走来，发现她脸色苍白，我立刻意识到出事了。接着她告诉我，我被宣布为外国代理人。

Probably that weekend. And then I saw my wife coming to me, and I realized that she was pale and just I realized that something happened. And then she told me that I was declared a foreign agent.

这是加琳娜·阿拉波夫得知自己被列入名单的经历版本。她是一位媒体律师，曾代理过被列入名单的记者。后来她自己也被贴上了外国代理人的标签。她是名单上的首位律师。她是在记者打电话询问影响时得知此事的。

Here's Galina Arapov's version of the experience of finding out she was on the list. She's a media lawyer who was representing journalists who had been put on the list. Then she was branded a foreign agent herself. She was the first lawyer on the list. She found out when a reporter called to ask her about the implications.

信不信由你，最初几秒钟我根本没意识到他实际上是在告诉我，我的名字出现在了名单上。我以为他是要我提供评论，比如如果你被列入名单会怎样，会如何影响你的生活。然后我才突然明白，他其实是在说

Believe it or not, like, for first few seconds, I didn't realize that he's actually saying to me that my name appeared on the list. I thought that he was asking me to provide a comment like what would happen, what if you appear on the list, how that would affect your life. And then I just realized that it's actually

这不是假设。

Not a hypothetical.

他实际上是在通知我，我的名字在名单上。

That he's actually informing me that my name is on the list.

被列入外国代理人名单会产生后果，无论当事人身处何地。一旦俄罗斯政府将你列为外国代理人，你将面临一系列选择，因为

Being put on the foreign agent list has consequences regardless of where the person lives. And once the Russian government names you a foreign agent, you face a bunch of choices because

那里

there

有各种适用于外国代理人的特殊规定，你必须决定是否遵守。其中一条规定：每次你在媒体、社交媒体甚至约会软件上公开或半公开地发布任何信息时，都必须警告人们他们正在与外国代理人打交道。你必须使用特定的免责声明，且字号要特别大。

are all sorts of special rules that apply to foreign agents, and you have to decide whether you're going to comply. One rule. Every time you communicate anything publicly or semi publicly in the media or in social media or in a dating app even, you have to warn people that they're dealing with a foreign agent. There's a special disclaimer you have to use, an extra large type.

确实非常大。按照规定，字体大小必须是正文的两倍。

It's huge. It's it has to be, like, in in font and letters twice bigger than the main text.

你还记得具体措辞吗？可以用俄语说。好的。免责声明写着：'本消息或信息由非政府组织外国代理人制作及/或传播'。

Do you remember the exact words? You can say them in Russian if you want. Yes. The disclaimer says, This message or information was created and or disseminated by a foreign agent, nongovernmental organization.

考虑到字号要求，这简直像一大段话。在社交媒体上，看起来就像全大写字母。

Which is quite like a big paragraph, considering the size. Like, in in in social media, it would be like an caps lock.

没错，是全大写的。而且规定越来越复杂。被列入名单者还必须成立一家公司。

Right. It's an all caps. Yeah. And it gets more Byzantine. A person who has been put on the list must create a corporation.

在国家眼中，公司即是你，你即是公司。这家公司必须提交季度财务报告，详细说明你的收入和支出，接受年度审计，并定期在网上发布你的活动报告（无论这意味着什么），或提交给媒体发布。每次文书工作都必须完美无缺，但规则却含糊不清。

And the corporation, in the eyes of the state, is you. And you are the corporation. This corporation has to file quarterly financial reports detailing the income you make and the money you spend, submit to an annual audit, and also post regular reports of your activities, whatever that means, on the Internet or submit them to the media for publication. The paperwork has to be perfect every time, but the rules are vague.

所以你很容易犯错。而一旦犯错，政府就会找上门来罚款。第一次罚款，第二次罚款，然后就是刑事诉讼。这整个就是个大陷阱。你知道，围绕这些的所有把戏，就像猫和老鼠的游戏。

So you can make mistakes, easily. And then if you made a mistake, here government comes with a fine. First fine, second fine, and then criminal case. So it's all made as a big trap. You know, all these games around it, they it's like a Tom and Tom and Jerry game.

他们只是在追赶我们，我们则试图逃跑，同时还要继续完成工作。

They are just running after us, we're trying to, run away, trying to still do the job.

加林娜遵守规则。她的大多数客户也是如此，即使他们生活在俄罗斯境外，因为每个人都有亲友或财产留在国内——当局可以决定骚扰这些家人，没收这些财产。我的朋友卡伦决定不遵守规则。他在全面入侵乌克兰后立即离开了俄罗斯，几个月后，他的名字就出现在了名单上。和所有人一样，他仍有无数羁绊与俄罗斯相连。

Galina follows the rules. Most of her clients do, even if they're living outside of Russia, because everyone has someone or something left behind, family members that the authorities can decide to harass, property the authorities can seize. My friend Karen decided not to follow the rules. He'd left Russia right after the full scale invasion of Ukraine, and a couple of months later, his name popped up on the list. Like everyone, he still had a million things tying him to Russia.

所以我知道我不会遵守那些规则，我决定放弃在那里的一切，包括我的公寓。

So I knew that I'm not gonna play by those rules, and I decided to just get rid of everything I had back there, including my apartment.

所以你当时在想，既然你被列入了外国代理人名单，你在俄罗斯的财产就处于危险之中，你应该基本上把钱转移出这个国家。

So you were thinking that now that you were on this list of foreign agents, your property in Russia was in danger, and you should basically take money out of the country.

是的。

Yes.

那是什么感觉？

What did that feel like?

毫无感觉。我告诉自己，我们不去触碰那些。我的意思是，那种对祖国、对那些你留在那里的人们无尽的情感深渊，真的会让人发疯。所以我选择不去感受任何情绪。

It felt like nothing. I told myself, like, we don't go there. I mean, in that, like, infinite depth of feelings about, you know, your country, everybody who you left there and stuff, it can drive you crazy. So I just didn't feel anything.

大约一年后，卡伦发现他的名字出现在另一份名单上——极端分子和恐怖分子名单。可以说这是种'升级'。这意味着俄罗斯政府冻结了他在俄境内的所有资产，幸好他早有先见之明卖掉了公寓。但上榜也意味着当局已对他提起刑事诉讼。需要说明的是，他并未收到任何案件通知。

A little over a year later, Karen found out that he was on another list, the list of extremists and terrorists. This was, you could say, an upgrade. It meant that the Russian state froze whatever assets he still had in Russia, so he'd been smart to sell his apartment. But being on this list also meant they'd opened a criminal case against him. Just to make this clear, it hadn't been informed that there was a case against him.

卡伦不得不聘请律师来查明自己的罪名和起诉检察官。由于我在俄罗斯也面临刑事诉讼，我们常讨论这种荒诞流程——需要自己寻找案件信息。我是通过俄官方媒体的报道才得知被起诉，随后名字就出现在通缉名单上。在各类名单中，通缉名单堪称最糟。目前我已遭缺席逮捕，未来几个月莫斯科法院将判处我七到九年监禁。

Karen had to hire a lawyer to figure out what he was charged with and which prosecutor was charging him. Karen and I have talked about this weird process of having to find your own case because there's also a criminal case against me in Russia. I found out about it from articles in Russian government media, and then my name appeared on the wanted list. In the hierarchy of lists, the wanted list is probably the worst that we know about anyway. I've now been arrested in absentia, and in the next few months, a Moscow court is going to sentence me to seven or eight or nine years in prison.

我的律师花了两个月才查明案件——罪名是'散布关于俄军队的虚假信息'。卡伦说我算幸运的，他的律师花了半年才找到案件。卡伦的罪名？多年前他曾向阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼的反腐败基金会捐款。

It took my lawyer two months to find the case against me for, quote, spreading false information about the Russian military. Karan said I was lucky. It took his lawyer six months to find his case. Karan's crime? Years ago, Karen donated money to Alexei Navalny's Anti Corruption Foundation.

纳瓦尔尼是今年早些时候死于北极监狱的俄罗斯政治家。你是什么时候给纳瓦尔尼组织捐款的？还记得吗？

Navalny is the Russian politician who died in an Arctic prison earlier this year. And when did you give money to the to the Navalny organization? Do you remember?

持续捐了很多年。那当然远在该基金会被贴上非法或极端分子标签之前。我相信自己只是成千上万支持纳瓦尔尼及其基金会的普通人之一。

Well, for years. And that was of course, it was long before they labeled Navalny Foundation as illegal or extremist or anything else. I was one of thousands of people, I believe, who supported Navalny and his foundation.

你知道你给了他们多少钱吗？

Do you have any idea how much money you gave them?

没多少，总共就几百美元吧。

Not that much. I believe few $100 total.

顺便说一句，阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼也被列入了极端分子和恐怖分子名单。他至今仍在名单上，因为当局声称尚未收到他死亡的正式文件。

By the way, Alexey Navalny was also on the list of extremists and terrorists. He still is on that list because the authorities say they haven't received proper documentation of his death.

你知道吗，最近与俄罗斯政府的任何接触，越来越像小学或初中时与流氓打交道的感觉。

You know, any contact with Russian state recently resembles more and more sort of contact with hooligans back in elementary or middle school.

恶霸。

Bullies.

对，就像恶霸一样。给人的感觉是他们非常强势、充满敌意，却又非常狭隘

Yeah, like with bullies. This is a feeling that they are very strong, very hostile, and very Small

狭隘？

minded?

是啊。强大、敌对且心胸狭隘。感觉他们就像一头受惊的大野兽，因为害怕你而试图攻击你，甚至可能因为恐惧而杀死你。

Yeah. Strong, hostile, and small minded. Sort of feeling that they are, like, big angry animal who is trying to attack you when they're scared of you and who can, like, kill you because they're scared of you.

我们就直说吧。你描述的就是一头熊，俄罗斯熊。

Let's just call this animal what it is. You're describing a bear, Russian bear.

这太老套了。别这样。

That's such a cliche. Come on.

被俄罗斯熊盯上时，你必须步步为营。如果要旅行，你得问：那里安全吗？我能去吗？另一位伊利亚·克拉辛舒克现在把世界各国分成三类。

With the Russian bear on your heels, you have to watch your step. If you're gonna travel, you have to ask, is it safe? Can I go there? Ilya Krasinshuk, a different Ilya, now divides all the countries in the world into three categories.

不能去。可能不能去。去了会有严重后果。

Can't go. Maybe can't go. Can't go with consequences.

所谓'去了有后果'其实就是别去。你不会想要那些后果的。伊利亚创办了名为Helpdesk的媒体，报道乌克兰战争并帮助乌民众逃离战火。在俄罗斯政府眼中，他因发布布查镇战争罪行已成为两年多的通缉犯。我没像伊利亚那样长期被通缉，但也明白这其中有一套复杂的门道。

Can't go with consequences really means don't go. You don't want the consequences. Ilya started a media outlet called Helpdesk, which reports on the war in Ukraine and helps Ukrainians flee the fighting. In the eyes of the Russian state, he has been a criminal for more than two years for posting about war crimes on Bucha. I haven't been a criminal for as long as Elia has, but I've also learned there's a whole convoluted science to it.

有些国家会向俄罗斯引渡人员，有些国家可能会。还有国际刑警组织，俄罗斯试图通过它拘留甚至引渡人员。规划出国行程时，细节考量会非常繁琐。

Some countries will extradite people to Russia. Some countries might. And then there's Interpol, the international police, which Russia tries to use to have people detained and sometimes extradited. The planning that goes into traveling to other countries can get very granular.

有时候重要的不是你飞往哪里，而是选择哪家航空公司。这真的很复杂，比如土耳其航空如果遇到突发情况，可以选择在俄罗斯备降，因为他们把那里设为备选机场。但你需要逐一联系每家航空公司询问每条航线，我觉得应该有人专门做这件事。

Sometimes it's it's not about where you go, but about which company you fly. And this is really difficult because, for example, Turkish Airlines have if something will happen, they can land in Russia because they have this airport as the plan b airport. But you need to call every airline and ask them for every route, and I think somebody should do this.

你可以轻易耗尽所有时间，甚至一生，只为完善那个不断躲避汤姆的杰瑞式表演。

You could easily spend all your time, your entire life, perfecting the act, being Jerry who keeps evading Tom.

所以这很荒诞，而荒诞本该有趣。我不知道，就像卡夫卡那样。某种程度上卡夫卡确实好笑，但同时也令人压抑。

So it's absurd, and absurd should be fun. I don't know. Like Kafka. Yeah. Kafka is funny some some way, but but it's also awful.

以前当朋友被列为外国代理人时，我会发消息说'以认识你为荣'，仿佛这是某种认可。但后来这种感觉消失了。当朋友上榜时我不觉得骄傲，当我自己被俄罗斯通缉时也是。当时我那位感恩节负责切火鸡的朋友伊利亚发信息问我：'我不确定该按什么礼节，是该祝贺你还是表达慰问？'

It used to be when a friend was named a foreign agent, I would send them a note saying, proud to know you, like it was some sort of recognition. At some point, that stopped feeling right. I don't feel proud, not when my friends were put on the list and not when I landed on Russia's wanted list. When that happened, my friend, Ilya, the one who was carving the turkeys at Thanksgiving, texted me, I'm not sure what the protocol is. Do I congratulate you or express condolences?

我感到悲伤。帮我理解这种悲伤——因为从理性上说，当我得知自己被刑事立案，后来又遭缺席审判时，某种程度上这甚至令人兴奋。就像人们常说的，这算是某种认可。

I felt sad. Help me understand the sadness because, you know, when I found out that there was a criminal case against me and then later when I found out that I was arrested in absentia, In a sense, you know, intellectually, it's almost exciting. And as people often say, it's a it's a sort of recognition.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但我感到深深的悲伤。感觉像是背负了前所未有的重担。这到底是什么？

And and I felt profoundly sad. I felt, you know, I like I was carrying around another burden that hadn't been there before. What is it?

哦，这是个好例子。如果我对你说些粗鲁的话，比如我告诉你我恨你，你为此感到难过是正常的，因为被人憎恨确实令人悲伤。而当我用‘这是我的荣幸’或‘他们很愚蠢’来回应时，这种反应其实是在保护你免受那种悲伤和悲剧情绪的伤害。

Oh, it's a it's a good one. If I'm telling you something rude, if I'm telling you I hate you, It's okay to be sad about that, because it's sad that someone hates me. And when I'm saying that, well, I'm honored by that, or they're stupid, I feel that this reaction just shielding you from the sadness and tragedy of that.

我悲伤中显而易见的事实是：被俄罗斯政府视为罪犯意味着我永远无法再回家。即使政权更迭也不可能。我不认为普京下台后新政府会立即、甚至短期内清理这些名单。所以和名单上的绝大多数俄罗斯人一样，我终生流亡。对我们这些生活在俄罗斯境外的人来说，被列入名单就像患上了棘手的慢性病。

The elephant in the room of my sadness is that being considered a criminal by the Russian state means I'll never be able to go home again. Not even if there's a change of regime. I doubt that the first, second, or even third thing they're going to do after Putin is purge all the lists. So like the vast majority of Russians who are on these lists, I'm in exile for life. For many of us who live outside of Russia, this business of being on list is really akin to having a troublesome chronic illness.

你得时刻关注它，必要时调整行为，希望它不会要了你的命。除此之外，你还能过着相对正常的美国、德国或荷兰式生活。但对仍在俄罗斯境内的人而言，情况要严峻得多。

You keep tabs on it. You modify your behavior as necessary. You hope it doesn't kill you. But other than that, you live a relatively normal American or German or Dutch life. For those who are still in Russia, though, the condition can be much more serious.

卓娅就是其中之一（化名）。她是LGBT活动家，去年11月俄罗斯最高法院宣布所谓‘国际LGBT运动’为极端组织。其实卓娅早被列入了政府内部流通的非公开名单。

Zoya is one such person. Zoya is not her real name. She's an LGBT activist, and in November, the Russian Supreme Court declared the, quote, international LGBT movement was an extremist organization. ZOE had been put on lists even before that, though. Internal lists circulated within government agencies.

这些名单本不该公开，但有非法服务能检索不同政府内部名单数据库，将结果出售给你——就像快速、未经删节且明码标价的‘信息自由法案’查询。

These lists aren't meant to be public, but there's an illicit service that will search different internal lists and databases and send you what they find. Like a Freedom of Information Act request, but fast, unredacted, and for sale.

只需支付约30美元小额费用，就能下载他们掌握的所有关于你的资料，包括警方自用的非正式名单。你会看清这个政权如何审视你：掌握了什么信息、是否追踪航班、情报是否充分。

You can just pay a very small amount, like $30, and download everything what they have on you, including these informal lists that police create for their work. You will be able to see how this regime sees you, what do they have on you, do they follow your flights, do they like is enough information.

她会给我们Excel文档还是PDF文件？

And would she get us an Excel document or PDF?

PDF。PDF文档。

PDF. PDF document.

在PDF上，你所在的名单被用红色标记。所以她的PDF上用红色标着极端主义和恐怖主义。但再次强调，这不是公开的极端分子和恐怖分子名单。

On the PDF, the lists you're on are marked in red. So her PDF said extremism and terrorism in red. But, again, this wasn't the public list of extremists and terrorists.

是的。这是两份不同的名单。如果可能的话，我会用俄语告诉你。如果你能翻译的话

Yeah. It's two different lists. If it's possible, I will say it to you in Russian. If you can translate

所以你想用俄语说的原因是，不是因为无法翻译，而是因为这个词汇本身不存在。对吧？就像他们在‘嫌疑人’这个词后面加了后缀，最接近的说法就是他们称你为‘可被怀疑涉及极端主义’和‘可被怀疑涉及恐怖主义’。

So the reason, yeah, the reason you wanted to say it in Russian is because not because you can't translate it, but because it's the word doesn't exist. Yeah. Right? So it's like if they added another suffix to the word suspect. So it's like it's closest to if they called you suspectable in extremism and suspectable in terrorism.

是的。就是

Yes. It's

这份内部名单相当于草拟名单。比如，佐伊最终很可能会被起诉。她会成为某个虚构案件的嫌疑人。但目前，在草案阶段，她只是‘可被怀疑’。你能告诉我为什么试图购买这些信息吗？

like this internal list is the draft of a list. Like, eventually, Zoe will probably be brought up on charges. She'll be the suspect in a made up crime. But for now, in draft form, she's merely suspectable. Can you tell me why you were trying to buy this information?

我认为这是为了让我了解周围的现实。因为当你身处国内时，常常感觉不到留在那里是有风险的。而当你得到这些信息，就会明白不，你不能掉以轻心。你必须每天做好可能被捕的准备。他们可能会来你的公寓。

I think it's for me to understand reality around me. Because when you are inside country, you very often don't feel that it's risky to stay there. And when you get this information, you understand that no, you cannot be unsafe. You have to be prepared every day that you could be arrested. They could come to your flat.

这不是一个问题，他们会不会来？他们会的。唯一的问题是何时来，以及你是否有时间离开这个国家？你能否来得及与父母道别？

And it's not a question, will they come or not? They will. Just the question is when and will you have time to to leave country? Will you have time to say goodbye for your parents or not?

当卓娅发现自己被列入了这份最终可能被归为极端分子和恐怖分子的名单后，她做了什么？她哭了。她开始制定一些未来某天离开国家的计划，同时也做了一个非常实际的留守方案。

And what did Zoya do after finding out she was on this list of people who would eventually, probably, be placed on the list of extremists and terrorists. She cried. She started making some plans for leaving the country someday, and she made one very practical plan for staying.

我们买了一扇非常好的门。我去店里时，让店员推荐一扇门。要最好的那种，当警察来的时候想破门而入时，我需要争取到五十分钟，二十分钟。他们给我选了这扇门。

We bought a very good door. And when I came to the shop, I asked a guy to recommend me a door. Best the best when police will come and they want to break this door. I need, like, fifty minutes, twenty minutes. And they choose this door for me.

这是主要标准。

This was the main criteria.

你买门的时候，他们以为你买来做什么用？

When you were buying the door, what did what did they think you needed it for?

他们以为我是个毒贩。那家伙告诉我，好吧，你会有时间把东西都扔进马桶冲走。我没解释为什么要这扇门。我觉得对他们来说这个理由更容易理解。警察通常清晨来，每晚睡前，

They thought that I'm a drug dealer. And the guy told me that, okay, you will have a time, like, to to throw away to to to the toilet everything what you have. I I didn't explain them why I need this door. I think that probably it's a more understandable reason for them. Police usually come in the morning, every evening before I'm going to sleep.

我都会检查门。所有这一切都必须关好，否则我就争取不到那二十分钟了。

I check the door. Everything all this everything should be closed because if not, then I will not have this twenty minutes.

这扇门有几道锁？

How many locks does the door have?

三道。

Three.

那你为什么需要二十分钟？

And why do you need twenty minutes?

我需要清理电脑和联系人，因为如果不这样做，我所有的朋友都会有危险。而且我还得修理我的狗。我的狗会保护我，但他们可能会射杀它。

I need to clean my computer and contacts because if I will not do this, then all my friends will be in risk. And also, I have to fix my dog. My dog will protect me and they could shoot the dog.

所以你得把狗关在另一个房间里？

So you have to put your dog in the other room?

对，关在浴室里，然后请求他们，恳请他们不要碰它。

Yeah, in the bathroom and ask them and kindly ask them to not touch him.

卓娅有许多留在俄罗斯的理由。自从她姐姐几年前因癌症去世后，卓娅和母亲一直共同抚养着卓娅的侄女。卓娅的父母不愿离开。卓娅的伴侣不愿离开。最重要的是，卓娅自己也不想离开。

Zoya has many reasons to stay in Russia. Since her sister died of cancer several years ago, Zoya and Zoya's mother have together been raising Zoya's niece. Zoya's parents don't want to leave. Zoya's partner doesn't want to leave. Most important, Zoya doesn't want to leave.

于是她决定尽可能久地留下来。她相信当局会给她最后一次警告，类似'现在离开这个国家否则就去坐牢'这样的话，然后她就会离开。我不明白她为何认为会有警告。但说到她的侄女，佐伊确信那女孩应该一到适龄就离开这个国家。

So she has decided that she will stay as long as she possibly can. She believes the authorities will give her one final warning, something like, leave the country now or go to jail, and then she'll leave. I'm not sure why she thinks there will be a warning. When it comes to her niece, though, Zoe is sure that the girl should leave the country as soon as she's old enough.

我不认为她会有未来。我不相信在俄罗斯生活会变好。现在我看到了有多少人在这些选举中支持普京，人们是如何庆祝的。我只希望我侄女能拥有最好的一切。我希望她生活在一个可以自由选择伴侣、工作、观点等一切的自由国度。

I don't believe that she will have a future. I don't believe that life will be better in Russia. I see now how many people support Putin in these elections and how people celebrate it. And I wish all the best for my niece. I want her to live in a free country with the possibility to choose partners, work, opinion, everything.

如果我对你说同样的话呢？

What if I said all the same things to you?

如果有人祝愿我一切安好那很好。但这是我对我侄女的期许。当然，最终决定权在她自己。

It's good if someone wish me all the best. But my niece will this is what I wish for her. But, of course, she will decide.

就在我们开始访谈前，卓娅告诉我一个对她来说也很新的消息：她怀孕了。

Just before we sat down for our interview, Zoya told me something that was still pretty new to her too. She was pregnant.

我现在深陷危机，因为今天一整天，整个上午我都在哭。我开始感受到自己不再关心自己，而是开始关心这个孩子。

I am in a huge crisis now because all today, all morning, I just cry. And I feel it how I start to care not about myself but about the child.

就像这个孩子一出生就会被列入那些名单。汉娜·阿伦特称官僚制度为'无人统治'。也许这就是为何感觉如此绝望。他们给你贴上极端分子或外国代理人的标签，转眼间你就会用这些术语来描述自己的生活，因为这确实就是你的生活。思考你能去哪里、在公开场合能说什么、如何被俄罗斯政府针对、这会如何影响你爱的人，以及情况如何总能变得更糟。

It's like this child when they're born will already be on one of those lists. Hannah Arendt called bureaucracy the rule by nobody. Maybe that's why it feels so hopeless. They label you an extremist or a foreign agent, and next thing you know, you're using those terms yourself to describe your life because it is your life. Thinking about where you can go, what you can say in public, how you're being singled out by the Russian state can affect people you love, and how it can always, always get worse.

你永远都无法不去想这件事。

And you're never not going to think about it.

M·格森是《纽约时报》的专栏评论员，

M. Gessen is an opinion columnist with The New York Times and

该作者

the author

著有多部书籍，包括《未来极权主义如何重掌俄罗斯》。自这个故事首次报道以来，卓娅已生下孩子，目前仍在莫斯科。艾姆因‘散布关于俄罗斯武装部队的虚假信息’被缺席判处八年监禁。

of several books, including The Future How Totalitarianism Reclaimed Russia. In the years since this story first started, Zoya had her baby, and she is still in Moscow. Em was sentenced in absentia to eight years in prison for, quote, distributing false information about the Russian armed forces.

一双长筒袜，一件

A pair of stockings, a

鞋子，一张忧郁蓝调乐队的唱片，波巴·香奈儿五号香水，一支名为‘生死攸关’乐队的海报。西尔维娅·马赫穿着黑色吊带裙，大声朗读着《如何认识自我》这本书。你穿的那件衬衫曾是我的。这些是为你留下的物品准备的。

pair of shoes, a record by the moody blues of Boba Chanel, number five, poster of a band called Dead or Alive. Sylvia Mache in a black gutter belting book about how to get to know yourself. The shirt you adopted used to be mine. This is something for the things you left behind.

本期节目由南希·厄普代克和我共同制作编辑。南希还制作了格森的故事。参与本期节目制作的人员包括迈克尔·科梅特、维瓦·德·科恩菲尔德的安德烈娅·洛佩斯·克罗萨多、贝瑟尔·哈普蒂、卡西·哈勒、塞斯·温、凯瑟琳·雷蒙多、索菲亚·里德尔、瑞安·拉姆里、阿丽莎·希普、克里斯托弗·索塔拉、玛丽莎·罗伯逊·泰克斯特和马特·蒂尔尼。我们的执行编辑是萨拉·阿卜杜勒拉赫曼，高级编辑是大卫·凯斯特鲍姆。

Today's program was produced and edited by Nancy Updike and me. Nancy also produced m Guessen's story. People who put together today's show today include Michael Comete, Andrea Lopez Crosado of Viva De Kornfeld, Bethel Hapti, Cassie Halle, Seth Wynn, Catherine Raimondo, Sofia Riddle, Ryan Rummery, Alyssa Ship, Christopher Sotala, Marissa Robertson Textor, and Matt Tierney. Our managing editor, Sara Abdurrahman. Our senior editors, David Kestenbaum.

我们的执行主编是伊曼纽尔·巴里。今天的重播节目由苏珊·加伯和斯通·尼尔森协助制作。特别感谢以利亚·瓦拉钦斯基、莉卡·克雷默、贾娜·韦斯特、艾萨克·阿恩斯多夫和马丁·鲍尔斯。一如既往，希望您能考虑成为《美国生活》的合作伙伴会员，即可收听无广告版本的节目。

Our executive editor is Emmanuel Barry. Help on today's rerun from Suzanne Gabber and Stone Nelson. Special thanks today to Elijah Walachinski, Likka Kremer, Janae West, Isaac Arnsdorf, and Martine Powers. As always, I hope you will consider becoming a This American Life partner. You get to listen to our show without any ads in it.

您将获得数十集额外节目，老实说这些内容比我们最初构思时预想的要精彩得多，还能在播客订阅中直接访问完整的《精选集》档案。如果您想找些优质内容收听，它就在您的订阅列表里。注册请访问thisamericanlife.org/lifepartner。《美国生活》通过公共广播交换机构PRX向公共电台分发。一如既往感谢我们的联合创始人托尔·梅拉蒂亚先生，他曾用三个关键词描述自己的管理风格：

You get dozens of bonus episodes that honestly have turned out to be so much better than we ever dreamed they would be when we first cooked up the idea of doing bonus episodes, and you get a whole Greatest Hits archive that appears right in your podcast feed. So if you're looking for something good to listen to, it is right there in your feed. To sign up for this, go to thisamericanlife.org/lifepartner. This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange. Thanks as always to our cofounder, mister Tore Melatia, as he described his own management style in a list with three main points.

强势、敌对且心胸狭隘。

Strong, hostile, and small minded.

好了，格拉斯。下周我们将继续带来更多《美国生活》的故事。

Alright, Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American life.

一串念珠。一个玻璃纸袋。一个词，行动

A rosary. A glassine bag. One word, act

在我门上。这是一个

up on my door. It's one

词，再见。

word, goodbye.

下周的播客节目《美国生活》将讲述一个男人与他的车的故事。

Next week on the podcast, This American Life, a man and his car.

你知道，有些人会用'它'来指代车，而我用'她'来称呼我的车。人们都说你和这辆车像是在谈恋爱。

You know, like, some people also, like, use the pronoun it for the car. I use the pronoun she for her. Like and people say you are in a relationship with, with this car.

在他居住的小社区里，这个叫阿里的男人拥有唯一一辆车，这让他成了非官方的出租车司机、送货员和校车司机。那么当他的车树敌时会发生什么？下周请收听当地公共广播电台的播客节目。

The small community where he lives, this guy Ali has the only car, making him the unofficial taxi driver, delivery guy, and school bus driver. So what happens when his car makes an enemy? That's next week on the podcast on your local public radio station.