本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
大家好。
Hi, everybody.
艾拉·胡罗姆。
Ira Hurom.
我今天声音有点怪。
My voice is weird today.
我感觉很好。
I feel fine.
希瑟曾深爱摩门教，因此她与丈夫分道扬镳。
Heather loved being Mormon, so she and her husband split up.
她说此后教会里的人对她和孩子们的态度就变了。
After that, she says, people in the church treated her and her kids differently.
她意识到自己永远无法拥有完美的摩门教家庭。
She realized she would never have the perfect Mormon family.
她仍是信徒，但开始偷偷做教会禁止的事。
She was still a believer, but she started secretly doing things that members of the church aren't supposed to do.
她与未婚男性发生关系。
She slept with men she wasn't married to.
她饮酒。
She drank.
但表面上她维持体面，在退出教会前过了多年双面生活。
But on the surface, she kept up appearances, lived a double life for years before she quit the church.
这种双面生活偶尔会让她担心东窗事发。
A double life with occasional moments where she thought she might get found out.
你知道，
You know,
作为摩门教徒，你不应该喝咖啡，这看起来相当无害，相当简单。
as a Mormon person, you're not supposed to drink coffee, and that seems fairly innocuous, fairly simple.
但我当时没忍住，喝了咖啡，在接孩子放学前给自己买了一杯，他们还小，不会理解或察觉。
But I was slipping, and I was drinking coffee, and I'd gotten myself a coffee before I picked up my kids from school, and they were young enough that they wouldn't understand or get it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
天啊。
And oh my gosh.
是啊。
Yeah.
我朋友看到我，挥了挥手，开始朝车子走来。
And my friend saw me and, like, waved and started to walk over to the car.
看到你从咖啡店出来？
Saw you come out of a coffee shop?
不是。
Nope.
她只是在拼车队伍里看到我站在那里，但我车里有一杯热咖啡，当时是秋天。
She just saw me in the car pool line standing there, but I had a hot coffee in my car, and it was fall.
这意味着如果我摇下车窗，咖啡的味道会直接飘出来扑到她脸上。
And that meant, like, if I unrolled the window, the smell of coffee was gonna waft out right and smack her in the face.
所以我开始慌了，然后摇下了车窗。
And so I started to panic, and I unrolled the window.
我还记得那种恐慌感，然后你很快就学会了如何轻松地说谎。
And I can remember, like, the panic, and you just learn to lie so easily and so quickly.
我想我当时说的是，哦，我没在喝它。
And I think I said, oh, I'm not drinking it.
我就是喜欢秋天的气息。
I just love the smell in fall.
别担心。
Don't worry.
别担心。
Don't worry.
我就是喜欢这个味道。
I just love the smell.
她接受了这个说法并回应道，哦，我也是。
And she accepted that and said, oh, I do too.
这不是很诱人吗？
Isn't it so tempting?
然后我们俩就那样坐在那里。
And we both just kind of sat there.
很明显，我买咖啡不是为了闻香味。
Like, obviously, I didn't buy a coffee for the smell.
你知道，那完全是一场虚假的对话，而我们俩都参与其中。
You know, it was just a a conversation that was completely fake, and we both engaged in it.
所以当她说'哦，这太诱人了'时，你是否认为她是在暗示'这是我们的秘密'？
And so when she said, oh, it's so tempting, did you take it as her saying, this is our secret.
你知道的，我爱你。
You know, I love you.
我们很好。
We're good.
我认为她的意思是，我会假装相信你的谎言，因为这对我们俩来说都是更轻松的选择。
I took it as her saying, I'm going to pretend to believe your lie because it's an easier path for both of us.
而且我觉得我的孩子们可能也经常这样做，假装相信我的谎言。
And I think my kids probably did that a lot too, pretended to believe my lies.
这其实正是我想和希瑟谈的内容。
This is actually what I wanted to talk to Heather.
我们的周六话题是关于家庭成员如何对同一事件产生不同认知。
Our Saturday is about how different members of the family perceive the same events differently.
而希瑟家这一年发生的事似乎是个极端案例——因为她一直在试图欺骗自己的孩子。
And what was happening inside Heather's family during this year seemed like such an extreme example of that because she was trying to deceive her kids.
她独自抚养三个女儿，按照教会方式教育她们，用她的话说，是要把她们培养成摩门教完美的纯洁器皿，献给未来的丈夫。
She was raising three daughters on her own, raising them in the church, she says, to be the perfect pure vessels of Mormonism for their future husbands.
这是她的原话，不是我的。
Her words, not mine.
部分原因是这是她所知的唯一育儿方式。
This was partly because it was the only way she knew how to be a mother.
但另一方面，希瑟自己也深爱着在教会度过的童年时光。
But also, Heather loved her own childhood growing up in the church.
她想把这种体验也带给孩子们。
She wanted to give that to them.
而希瑟不仅仅仍然是个信徒。
And Heather wasn't just still a believer.
她是那种努力尝试、无所不能的信徒，成为了她所在教区的慈助会会长，这意味着她要照料约150个家庭的女性成员。
She's the kind of try hard, can do believer who became Relief Society president in her ward, which meant that she ministered to the women in about 150 families.
希瑟每个周日都站在讲坛上讲授摩门教义。
Heather stood at a pulpit every Sunday teaching Mormon doctrine.
她这样做时，心里清楚孩子们有时会看到她违反教规。
And she did that knowing that her kids sometimes saw her break the rules.
比如离婚后，她就不再穿摩门教要求成人穿的特殊内衣。
Like, for example, after her divorce, she stopped wearing the special Mormon undergarments that adults are supposed to wear.
孩子们知道她不穿这些内衣。
Her kids knew that she didn't wear them.
因为他们会看到我换衣服，而我没穿那些内衣。
Because they would see me change, and I didn't have them on.
你还记得他们看到这种情况并提出疑问的时刻吗？
And do you remember any moments where they saw this and they asked?
不记得。
No.
他们从没问过。
They never asked.
他们只字未提。
They never said a word.
你怎么看这件事？
What do you make of that?
我甚至不知道该怎么理解这件事。
I I don't even know what to make of that.
首先，我觉得他们可能感到困惑。
First, I feel like they probably felt confused.
而且还会产生怨恨，因为我是个严厉的母亲，要求他们在教堂里保持体面的外表。
And also, would think resentment because I was a strict mom, and I held them to the standard of appearances at church.
而且你知道，我是在讲坛上授课的。
And I was you know, I taught from the pulpit.
我教授福音教义。
I taught gospel doctrine.
然后他们回到家却发现，从我嘴里说出来的话连最基本的行动都不一致，比如我穿的内衣类型。
And then for them to go home and see that the words coming out of my mouth did not match, like, the simplest of actions, like the type of underwear I was wearing.
你觉得他们当时什么都没说吗？
Do you think that that they weren't saying anything?
因为小时候就是这样，有时候你甚至不明白那是什么意思，但你就是知道不该问。
Because it's just one of those things when you're a kid sometimes where you don't even know what it means, but you just know, like, don't go there.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为正是这样。
I think that's exactly what it was.
我觉得这件事充满深意，所以他们知道不该问。
I think it was laden with meaning, and so they knew not to ask.
大多数时候，希瑟都尽量不让孩子们知道这些事。
Mostly, Heather tried to keep things on the down low from her kids.
她把一瓶伏特加藏在家里，放在衣柜第三层的高处，那里堆满了毛衣和其他衣物，她确信女孩们不会去翻动。
She kept a bottle of vodka hidden in the house, high on the third shelf of a closet with sweaters and other clothes that she was sure the girls didn't go into.
她说房子里没有任何可见的线索能暴露她的秘密生活。
And she says there were no visible clues of her secret life in the house.
直到我的商业伙伴给我买了一台Keurig咖啡机。
Until my business partner bought me a Keurig.
Keurig，那个小咖啡机？
Keurig, the little coffee maker?
就是那个小咖啡机。
The little coffee maker.
放在柜台上的咖啡机。
The counter coffee maker.
我立刻出去买了一个分层架，上面摆满了各种花草茶和热巧克力，因为那些都是
And I immediately went out and bought a tier with, like, all of the herbal teas and hot chocolates because those are
符合犹太教规的。
kosher.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
我还特意把这些东西都展示出来。
And I made sure that those were on display.
多年来，每次有人来我家，我做的第一件事就是指着咖啡机展示架说：'我们喜欢用这个给孩子们做热可可'。
And, like, for years, every time someone would come to my house, the first thing I would do is, like, gesture to the curator to the coffee maker and say, we love this for hot cocoa for the kids.
我会主动提起这个，因为对我来说它就像个刺眼的标志，象征着反抗和堕落。
Like, I would lead with that because it was just such to me a blaring, you know, symbol of rebellion and slipping.
咖啡胶囊藏在哪里了？
Where were the coffee pods hidden?
说实话就在食品柜最里面，用Cheez Its多包装盒装的，因为要给孩子准备午餐
They were deep in the pantry in, like honestly, it it's a Cheez Its multipack box because, like, with the kids' lunches
嗯。
Mhmm.
你买的是大包装盒，
You get the bigger boxes,
然后
and then
你就可以把所有独立小包装拿出来，你
you could just take out all the single serves, and you
直接把它们放进去就行。
just put them in it.
所以计划是等孩子们都去上学了，你独自在家时就可以用Keurig胶囊机给自己煮杯咖啡？
And then was the scheme that, like, once the kids were off at school, you were home alone, and you could put the little Keurig capsule in and make yourself a coffee?
还是你
Or were you
一大早就
doing first thing in
开始喝？
the morning?
你每天早晨第一件事就是喝咖啡吗？
You would do it first thing in morning?
一大早，他们就闻到了。
First thing in the morning, and they could smell it.
而且我不知道该怎么解释。
And it's I don't know how to explain it.
就好像，我猜他们不知道那是什么，因为他们从未接触过。
It's like, I assume they wouldn't know what it was because they had never been exposed to it.
他们在朋友家没见过咖啡。
They didn't see coffee at their friends' houses.
他们没有
They didn't
哦。
Oh.
我甚至都没想过这点。
It didn't even occur to me.
他们...这不像咖啡。
They it's not like coffee.
你生活在一个有咖啡的世界里。
You live in a world with coffee.
有咖啡的世界。
World with coffee.
你可以用谎言掩盖很多事情。
You can get away with lying about a lot of things.
哦，所以你10岁的孩子闻到咖啡味时不会想到是咖啡。
Oh, so your 10 year old isn't smelling coffee and thinking it's coffee.
你家10岁的孩子正闻着咖啡香发呆
Your 10 year old is smelling coffee and just thinking
就是那个香味
It's the smell.
我是说，她可能一直都有这种联想，但那是个'不问、不说、不承认'的原则
And, I mean, she might have been making the connection all along, but it was a don't ask, don't tell, don't acknowledge policy.
你大女儿是叫艾希莉吗？
Your oldest is is Ashley?
她是艾希莉
She's Ashley.
她现在22岁了
She's 22 now.
天啊
Oh my god.
我想问问她
I wanna ask her.
嗯
Yeah.
你应该问
You should.
于是我就联系了艾希莉
So I reached out to Ashley.
那是2012年，他们买Keurig咖啡机那年
It was '12 the year they got the Keurig.
她的小妹妹们一个九岁，一个八岁。
Her little sisters were nine and eight.
她走进工作室，从我提到Keurig咖啡机那一刻起，她的记忆就和她妈妈的完全不同了。
She came into the studio, and from the moment I brought up the Keurig, her memory was totally different from her mom's.
猜猜是谁送她Keurig咖啡机的？
Guess who gave her the Keurig?
谁？
Who?
我。
Me.
如你所闻，希瑟记得是她的商业伙伴送的。
Heather, as you heard, remembers it was her business partner.
但艾希莉说不是。
But Ashley said no.
她自己有钱。
She had money.
是她做保姆赚的。
She had earned babysitting.
这是她给妈妈买的第一件成年圣诞大礼。
It was the first big grown up Christmas present she ever bought her mom.
真不敢相信她
I can't believe she
没告诉
didn't tell
你得知道那东西是我弄来的。
you that that I was the one that got it.
这可是件大事。
It was a big deal.
我可是攒了钱才给她买了这台Keurig咖啡机。
I, like, saved up my money get her this Keurig.
那你买Keurig的时候，觉得它是用来干嘛的？
And when you bought the Keurig, what did you think it was for?
冲咖啡啊。
For coffee.
艾希莉说她这个主意是从朋友艾尔莎家得来的。
Ashley said she got the idea for this at her friend Elsha's house.
艾尔莎和她从闺蜜变成了商业伙伴。
Elsha and she were best friends into paid partners.
她们的妈妈也因此相识并一起创业。
And their moms got to know each other and went into business together.
艾尔莎家曾是摩门教徒。
Elsha's family was ex Mormon.
所以艾希莉会看到艾尔莎父母周日喝咖啡、逛商店或去健身房——这些在摩门教安息日都是不被允许的。
So Ashley would see Elsha's parents drink coffee or go to the store or the gym on Sunday, which Mormons aren't supposed to do on the Sabbath.
他们看起来普通又快乐，这些行为似乎完全没对他们的家庭造成伤害。
They seemed normal and happy, and those things did not seem harmful to their family at all.
比如，我对晚餐时喝杯葡萄酒这件事特别着迷，就是看着父母在晚餐时喝杯葡萄酒那种场景。
Like, I was so fascinated by, like, having a glass of wine at dinner, like, seeing parents just, like, having a glass of wine at dinner.
我不知道该怎么解释。
And I don't know how to explain it.
感觉很酷。
It felt cool.
非常酷的那种。
Like very cool.
而且，你知道，我希望我的家庭也能这样。
And, you know, I I want my family to be like this.
我成长过程中经常和他们在一起。
Like, I I was with them a lot growing up.
家里有台Keurig咖啡机再平常不过了，看到这个我就想，为什么我们不能有呢？
And having a Keurig in the house was so normal, and seeing that, I'm like, why can't we have that?
你懂吗？
You know?
所以你给你妈妈买了，因为你知道我妈喝咖啡。
So you bought it for your mom, understanding my mom drinks coffee.
我买这个给她，她就能喝上咖啡了。
I'm buying this for her so she can have coffee.
是的。
Yes.
我希望你喝咖啡。
Like, I want you to drink coffee.
就像我给她买Keurig咖啡机时，我觉得她大概在想，天啊，Ashley懂我。
Like, like me buying her a Keurig, I think she kind of thought, oh my gosh, like, Ashley understands me.
就像，我被女儿理解并以某种方式支持着。
Like, I'm, you know, seen by my daughter and supported in a way.
就像，你知道，我当时嗯...
Like, it wasn't you know, I was Mhmm.
在同一个频道上。
On the same wavelength.
比如，好啊，我们买个Keurig咖啡机吧。
Like, yeah, let's get a Keurig.
她完全不知道她妈妈根本不记得这件事。
She had no idea that her mom didn't remember it this way at all.
但她说自己当时太小了，很可能从没告诉过妈妈'这是给你喝咖啡用的'。
But she said she was so young, it was really possible that she never told her mom, this is for you to drink coffee.
我知道你喝咖啡。
I know you drink coffee.
说实话，因为我那时才12岁。
Honestly, because I was so I was 12.
就像，我猜我不会直接说出来，你懂吧？
Like, I don't I guess I wouldn't up and say that, you know?
所以你认为可能发生了什么——我只是想把事情理清楚。
So you think what might have happened I just I'm trying to get this straight.
所以你觉得，你可能给了她那个小箭头符号，明白它的用途，但她没领会暗示。
So you think, like, you might have given her the caret, understanding what the caret is for, but she didn't get the hint.
我想大概就是这么回事。
I think maybe that's that's what's going on here.
是啊。
Yeah.
或者说她不愿相信我看到她的那一面。
Or she didn't wanna believe that I saw that side of her.
哦，这真有意思。
Oh, that's so interesting.
她无法理解你想向她展示的东西，因为她还没准备好接受？
She couldn't understand what you were trying to show her because she wasn't ready for it?
对。
Yeah.
我是说，你妈妈曾跟我说你和姐妹们都是严格按摩门教方式抚养的孩子，她赌你们没在朋友家或其他地方接触过咖啡。
I mean, your mom said to me that you and your sisters were properly raised Mormon children, and she was betting on the fact that you hadn't been exposed to coffee at friends' houses or elsewhere.
所以当你们在家闻到咖啡味时，你们甚至不知道那是咖啡。
So when you would smell coffee at home, you guys wouldn't even know it was coffee.
哦，她这么说过啊。
Oh, she said that.
是的。
Yes.
好吧。
Okay.
没错。
Yeah.
我觉得她低估了我当时对世界的认知程度。
I think she's underestimating what I knew about the world at that time.
艾希莉和她妈妈当时处于这样一种情况：她们各自对咖啡机到来的理解完全不同。
So Ashley and her mom were in this situation where they each saw why the arrived very differently.
但当时她们都以为对方的看法和自己一致，这太奇怪了，让我不禁好奇艾希莉的姐妹们怎么想。
But at the time, each of them thought they both saw it the same way, which is so weird that I wondered about Ashley's sisters.
重申一下，咖啡机送到时她们才八九岁。
Again, they were eight and nine when the Keurig arrived.
我们联系了她最小的妹妹。
We called her youngest sister.
你好。
Hello.
蓝色？
Blue?
谁是这样记忆那台咖啡机的？
Who remembers the Keurig this way.
我们只用它来泡热巧克力，我确实...呃...
We only used it for, like, hot chocolate, and I can't yeah.
我觉得她根本没用它煮过咖啡。
I I don't think she used it for coffee at all.
所以按你的理解，当艾希莉送她咖啡机时，那其实是台可可饮料机？
So when Ashley got her the Keurig, as far as you understood, that was a machine for cocoa.
热巧克力机。
Hot chocolate machine.
你妈妈告诉我她一直在用它喝咖啡，就赌你们根本不知道咖啡是什么味道。
Your mom explained to me that she was drinking coffee out of it all the time, and she was just betting on the fact that you just didn't know what coffee smelled like.
这可能吗？
Is that possible?
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
不。
No.
那绝对有可能是真的，因为我根本不知道咖啡是什么味道，完全没有注意到。
That that could definitely be true because I I didn't know what coffee smells like, and I didn't notice at all.
太疯狂了。
So that's crazy.
我不知道这件事。
I didn't know that.
是啊。
Yeah.
你妈妈说她在家里一直喝咖啡，一直在煮。
Your mom said she was drinking coffee in the house all the time, making it all the time.
什么？
What?
哇。
Wow.
是啊。
Yeah.
我完全不知道。
I had no idea.
这让我太震惊了。
That's mind blowing to me.
是啊。
Yeah.
我完全以为她只是，比如，几年前才开始喝的，我是说，当我们离开教会之后。
I I totally thought she only started drinking it, like, a couple years ago, or, I mean, when we left the church.
我能用另一个消息让你更震惊吗？
Can I can I blow your mind with one other piece of information?
请讲。
Yes, please.
问问你姐姐阿什莉她知不知道。
Ask your sister Ashley if she knew.
你认识阿什莉吗？
Did did you know Ashley?
认识。
Yes.
我简直...我真的很震惊你居然以为她只是几年前才开始喝咖啡的。
I full I I'm, like, actually mind blown that you thought that she just started drinking coffee, like, a few years ago.
你完全不知道？
You had no idea?
不知道。
No.
什么？
What?
是啊。
Yeah.
什么？
What?
等等。
Wait.
太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
对啊。
Yeah.
因为我以为那是个巨大的转折点。
Because I I thought it was such a huge like a huge spin.
妈妈绝不会那么做的。
Mom would never do that.
这太离谱了。
That's crazy.
天啊
Oh my
呐。
gosh.
这让我震惊不已。
This is blowing my mind.
嗯。
Yeah.
我惊呆了。
I'm mind blown.
我不敢相信。
I can't believe that.
我不敢相信。
I can't believe that.
爸爸。
Dad.
太疯狂了。
That's insane.
太疯狂了。
That's insane.
现在正是泽恩告诉你希瑟在上电视节目的好时机。
This is a good a time for Zenne to tell you that Heather is on a TV show.
如果你知道这个节目，我猜你可能已经发现希瑟就是希瑟·盖伊，《盐湖城娇妻》中的一员，算是该节目观众最喜爱的角色之一。
If you know the show, I'm guessing that maybe you've already figured that Heather is Heather Gay, one of the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, kind of an audience favorite from that show.
节目中以及希瑟写的两本书里透露的一件事是，她有时仍会感到羞耻，害怕被评判，但她并没有遵守教会的规则。
And one of the things that comes out on that show, and in two books that Heather's written, is the shame that she sometimes still feels, the fear of judgment, but she's not following the church's rules.
与希瑟的三个孩子交谈时有趣的是，我还和她第三个女儿乔治亚聊过，他们完全没有那种感觉。
What was interesting about talking to Heather's three kids, I also talked to her third daughter Georgia, was that they felt none of that.
完全没有。
None.
他们一直把自己视为那种不墨守成规的摩门教家庭。
They'd always seen themselves as one of those Mormon families that bends the rules.
他们总会在周日做完礼拜后停下来买墨西哥菜，尽管安息日不该叫外卖。
They'd always stopped to do things like pick up Mexican food after church on Sunday, even though you're not supposed to get takeout on Sabbath.
他们的妈妈不穿教会内衣对他们来说没什么大不了的。
Their mom not wearing church undergarments wasn't a big deal to them.
反正他们觉得那条规矩很蠢。
They thought that rule was silly anyway.
艾希莉一直觉得她和妈妈都被教会束缚住了。
Ashley always figured she and her mom both felt hemmed in by the church.
我只是理解她。
I I just understood her.
你知道吗？
You know?
我能看出来那不适合她，你懂吗？
I could see that it just wasn't her, you know?
她想要的是不一样的东西。
That she wanted something different.
艾希莉和我再次拿起电话打给她妈妈。
Ashley and I picked up the phone one more time to call her mom.
这简直是有史以来最棒的一天。
This is, like, the best day ever.
我真的很享受这一刻。
I'm really enjoying this.
喂？
Hello?
艾希莉告诉希瑟她告诉我的事，说是她带回来的Keurig咖啡机，她这么做是因为知道她妈妈喝咖啡，想表达‘尽管在家喝咖啡吧’的意思。
And Ashley told Heather what she told me, that she was the one who brought the Keurig, and that she did it knowing that her mom drank coffee, trying to say, Go ahead, drink coffee at home.
我对此没意见。
That's fine with me.
当然，这对希瑟来说是个新闻。
This, of course, was news to Heather.
我不知道为什么这让我情绪激动。
I don't know why it's making me emotional.
我只是
I just
感觉你好像在允许我做自己。
it feels like you're kind of giving me permission to, you know, be myself.
而我之前完全不知道背后的这些故事。
And I I didn't know all of that behind it.
我原来不知道这件事。
I didn't know that.
你不知道吗？
You didn't?
这让我也想哭了。
That makes me wanna cry too.
我知道的。
I did.
真的，我简直不敢相信我们从来没谈过这件事。
I really I I can't believe we never had that conversation.
那简直，就像，完全是我所想的那样
That was totally, like, totally I what it
感觉我无法接受它，因为我总觉得某种程度上我在让你失望，让教会失望，让姐妹们失望，就因为我在不该喝的东西上表现得如此放肆。
felt like I couldn't embrace it because I felt somehow that I was letting you down, letting the church down, letting down your sisters by being, like, brazen in something that I wasn't allowed to drink.
而一个好妈妈是不会用Keurig咖啡机的。
And a good mom doesn't have a Keurig.
而且我已经是个坏妈妈了，因为我离了婚，又因为我在工作，就已经是个坏妈妈了。
And I was already a bad mom because I'd gotten divorced, and I was already a bad mom because I was working.
我只是试图，就像，紧紧抓住那些我认为的、被告知用来区分好人与坏人的标准。
I was just trying to, like, cling to the standards that I thought, you know, that I'd been told to find a good person from a bad person.
但有趣的是，通过给你那辆凯迪拉克，艾希莉其实是想说，我知道你喝咖啡。
But it's funny with with by giving you the carer, Ashley is trying to say, like, I know you drink coffee.
你觉得你是不是还没准备好从艾希莉那里听到那些话？
Do you think you just weren't ready to hear that from Ashley?
我还没准备好听到那些话，我甚至不愿对自己承认。
I wasn't ready to hear that from I didn't admit it to myself.
所以绝对没准备好从我女儿那里听到这些，我本该让她远离所有这些事的。
So definitely wasn't ready to hear it from my daughter who I, you know, was supposed to, like, keep shielded from all of those things.
我说的远离，不仅是咖啡，还有我的那些...你知道的...失败。
And when I say keep shielded, from coffee, but from my, you know, failings.
我
I
我不知道，妈妈。
don't know, mom.
我只是那样
I just that
这让我心碎，你的一切都让我心碎，但我总是...是的。
breaks my heart that you it all breaks my heart, but I I just always yeah.
我理解你，我觉得我们处境相同。
I've understood you, and we I feel like we were in the same boat.
当你终于说，伙计们，我不想再去教堂了，我为自己感到一种解脱，也为你不用为了我们而活在谎言中。
And when you finally were like, guys, I don't wanna go to church anymore, I felt this sense of relief for myself, but also for you that you don't have to live a lie just for us.
你知道吗？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
从Keurig咖啡机开始。
Started with the Keurig.
从
Started with the
Keurig，入门之物。
Keurig, the gateway.
等等。
Wait.
我知道事实是什么。
I know what the fact is.
如何应用它。
Way apply it.
等等。
Wait.
我还留着那台Keurig咖啡机。
I still have that Keurig.
我还在用
I still use
它。
it.
就是同一台
That's the same
咖啡机。
one.
Keurig。
Keurig.
等等。
Wait.
这让我
That makes
想哭。
me wanna cry.
我有一台Keurig。
I have a Keurig.
Keurig。
Keurig.
同一个屋檐下的家人，对事物的看法可能天差地别，甚至像咖啡机这样简单的东西也不例外。
People in the same family, people who live under the same roof can see things so radically differently, even simple things like a coffee maker.
今天我们节目要讲述的，是另一个充满爱的家庭——父母双全，两个孩子。
Today on our program, have another very loving family, two parents, two kids.
他们身处同样的情境，经历相同的事件，目睹完全相同的事物，却各自有着截然不同的解读。
And they're in this situation, living through the same events, seeing the exact same things that they all have very different takes on.
他们试图达成共识，但这很困难。
They try to get on the same page, but it's hard.
这里是WBEZ芝加哥电台，您正在收听《美国生活》。
WBEZ Chicago, this is American Life.
我是艾拉·格拉斯。
I'm Ira Glass.
请继续收听。
Stay with us.
这里是《美国生活》第一幕：分裂之家。
It's this American Life Act one, a house divided.
在麦肯齐和贝拉的房子里有个绝佳的窃听位置——二楼楼梯顶端的小休息角。
There's a spot in Mackenzie and Bella's house that's perfect for eavesdropping on their parents, a small sitting nook on the 2nd Floor at the top of the stairs.
当父母在楼下厨房或卧室交谈时，声音会顺着楼梯传上来。
When the parents are downstairs talking in the kitchen or in their bedroom, sound travels up, making its way through the stairwell.
所以你能听到发生的所有事情。
So you can hear everything that's going on.
或者你可以坐在门正对面的摇椅上。
Or you sit in the rocking chair right across the door.
所以
So it's
就像，他们会关上门，你能听到低语声。
like, they'll have the door closed, and you can hear murmurs.
我们有点处于阴影中。
We're kind of in the shadow.
就像，我知道发生了什么，但不知道具体细节。
Like, I know what's going on, but I don't know exact things.
那是麦肯齐。
That's Mackenzie.
她17岁。
She's 17.
女孩们的父母，珍妮和菲德尔，几乎从不吵架。
The girls' parents, Jenny and Fidel, almost never fight.
他们是那种喜欢一起共度时光的家庭。
They're one of those families that like spending time together.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
他们一起做手工，一起公路旅行也不会互相厌烦，就是那种家庭。
They do arts and crafts together, go on road trips and don't kill each other, that kind of family.
女孩们和父母很亲近。
The girls are close to their parents.
所以所有这些分歧在他们家是不正常的。
So all this disagreement is abnormal in their house.
但自从去年11月特朗普总统赢得大选后，他们就陷入了菲德尔是否应该自我驱逐、回到他已经三十年没生活过的墨西哥的僵局。
But since last November, when president Trump won the election, they've been in a stalemate of a weather Fidel should self deport, return to Mexico, where he hasn't lived in thirty years.
女孩们生活在这场僵局的边缘，白天过着高中生活，晚上则在家中断断续续地参与父母的讨论。
The girls exist on the periphery of this stalemate, living their high school lives during the day, dipping in and out of their parents' discussions at home at night.
有时候，比如我在楼上时，他们会讨论一些事情，然后我会调低音乐音量，确保自己没有听错，仔细思考他们在说什么，因为那些话题似乎很重要。
Sometimes, like, I'll be upstairs and they'll be discussing stuff, and, like, I'll turn down my music to make sure that I'm not going crazy, good thinking about what they're talking about because they seem to be it's important.
这是贝拉。
Here's Bella.
她15岁。
She's 15.
偶尔当我在看电视或做类似的事情，坐在沙发上时，我会暂停节目，听上几分钟，然后心想，好吧，明白了。
Every once in a while when I'm, like, watching TV or something and I'm sitting on the couch, I'll, pause my show and I'll, like, listen in for a few minutes, and then I'll be like, okay, cool.
原来是这样。
That's what's happening.
然后我会继续看我的节目，就这样。
And then I'll turn my show back on and yeah.
我们的制片人之一瓦莱丽·基普尼斯对家庭如何做出是否自我驱逐的决定很感兴趣，尤其是那些家庭成员意见不一致的家庭。
One of our producers, Valerie Kipnis, was interested in how families are making this decision over whether to self deport, and especially the families where people do not agree on what to do or how to handle this.
今年大部分时间她都在跟踪里维耶尔一家的情况。
She's been following the Rivieres for most of this year.
这对父母显然、坚决地持不同意见。
The parents were definitely, emphatically not in agreement.
他们住在北卡罗来纳州罗利市郊外。
They live outside Raleigh, North Carolina.
珍妮特·里维耶尔是一名高中数学老师。
Janet Rivera is a high school math teacher.
她是本地出生的公民，你可能会认为这意味着她的丈夫菲德尔——来自墨西哥——能因此获得公民身份途径。
She's a citizen, born here, which you might think would mean that her husband, Fidel, who's from Mexico, would have a path to citizenship.
但移民法中有一项长期存在的规定。
But there's a long standing part of immigration law.
菲德尔18岁时曾非法进入美国，离开后又再次入境。
Fidel crossed into The States illegally back when he was 18, left, and came back into The States.
正因如此，他无法通过珍妮获得公民身份，除非他在美国境外居住满十年。
And because of that, he cannot get citizenship through Jenny until he spends ten years living outside The United States.
因此他已在美国非法居留了三十年。
So he's been living in The US without legal status for thirty years.
而今年大部分时间，他都在与珍妮就留美问题陷入旷日持久的高风险争执。
And for most of this year, he's been in a prolonged high stakes dispute with Jenny over whether to stay here.
瓦莱丽想观察这个决定如何在这栋房子的四面墙内引发连锁反应。
Valerie wanted to see how making this decision would reverberate around the walls of this one house.
不仅是珍妮和菲德尔如何做出抉择，还有他们的孩子贝拉和麦肯齐如何应对这个讨论数月、可能彻底改变他们人生的决定带来的压力。
Not just how Jenny and Fidel would figure out what to do, but how their kids, Bella and Mackenzie, would deal with the stress of this choice that was being discussed for months and could have ended their entire lives.
以下是瓦莱丽的报道。
Here's Valerie.
尽管亲密无间，麦肯齐和贝拉却是典型的性格迥异姐妹。
In spite of being incredibly close, Mackenzie and Bella are a classic case of opposites.
麦肯齐有着少女般清脆的笑声，长发披肩，戴着金耳环，是个高中毕业班学生。
Mackenzie has a high, girly laugh, long hair, gold hoops, a senior in high school.
小两岁的贝拉则穿着宽松短裤和足球衫，说话时刻意压低嗓音，带着满不在乎的腔调。
Bella, just two years younger, wears baggy shorts and a soccer jersey and pitches her voice lower in this, yeah, whatever way when she speaks.
这是贝拉。
Here's Bella.
我就喜欢坐在房间里发呆。
I just like to sit in my room and exist.
说真的，我正坐在沙发上看电视，她就过来挡住视线问：这身衣服好看吗？
Like honestly, I'm sitting on the couch watching TV and then she comes and blocks my view and is like, is this outfit good?
这双鞋配这身衣服吗？
Like do these shoes match this outfit?
我的发型好看吗？
Does my hair look good?
嗯。
Yeah.
不过确实。
But yeah.
但我会对她实话实说。
But I'll I'll be honest with her.
如果她的头发看起来毛躁什么的，我会告诉她，但是
I'll tell her if her, hair looks frizzy or something, but
是啊。
Yeah.
就在这时，贝拉指向她姐姐的脖子，那里的项链缠在了一起。
On cue, Bella points to her big sister's neck, where her necklace has gotten tangled.
你的项链像是
Your necklace is like
好的。
Okay.
谢谢你，女王。
Thank you, queen.
楼上是女孩们的卧室和一个小休息区。
Upstairs are the girls' bedrooms and a little hangout area.
楼下则是父母关于父亲是否应该带全家离开这个国家的分歧发生地，女孩们称这种情况为‘那个局面’。
Downstairs is the site of their parents' disagreement about whether their dad and the family should leave the country, what the girls have been calling the situation.
你能告诉我一些这种情况出现的时刻吗？
Could you tell me about some of the moments that has come up?
关于那个局面吗？
Like about the situation?
我觉得最近几乎每天都是这样。
I think that most recently, it's just been like every day.
主要是因为...
It's mostly because like.
她在唱歌吗？
Is she singing?
她在唱歌。
She's singing.
是啊。
Yeah.
她在唱歌。
She's singing.
在背景里唱歌的人是他们的妈妈珍妮。
The person singing in the background is their mom, Jenny.
她在隔壁房间戴着降噪耳机，唱着2015年的热门单曲《战歌》。
She's in the room next door wearing noise canceling headphones, singing the 2015 hit single fight song.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，她经常那样做，
Well, she does that a lot,
偶尔我坐在楼上时，会听到她的声音从地板下传来，我当时就想，这是怎么回事？
once in a while, I'd be sitting upstairs, and then I hear her voice coming through the floor, and I was like, what is happening?
我还以为是我房间里有鬼之类的。
I thought it was like a ghost in my room, like.
因为我奶奶告诉她这是分散注意力的好方法。
Because my grandma told her it's a good way to distract your mind.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以她通过唱歌来做到这一点。
So she does that by singing.
过去这一年珍妮经常唱歌，自从唐纳德·特朗普赢得大选后，因为菲德尔的事让她很焦虑。
Jenny's been singing a lot this past year, ever since Donald Trump won the election because she stressed about Fidel.
她只是希望他能制定一个计划。
She just wanted him to make a plan.
他应该搬到墨西哥去，或者他们应该全家一起搬走。
Either he should move to Mexico or they should move together as a family.
从她的角度来看，他们不能再像过去十六年那样继续生活，一直处于法律边缘。
The one thing they couldn't do from her perspective was to keep doing what they had been for the last sixteen years, living under the radar.
这种方式对我来说已经行不通了。
That wasn't working for me anymore.
继续维持现状是行不通的。
Just doing what we're doing wasn't working.
我需要制定一个计划，以防万一发生什么意外。
I needed to have a plan in place in case something happened.
珍妮是个循规蹈矩的人。
Jenny is a rule follower.
十六年来，每当菲德尔无证驾驶去上班时，她总担心他会出车祸，而他们的保险无法赔付。
For sixteen years, she worried when Fidel drove to work without a license that he'd get into accident and their insurance wouldn't cover it.
或者他会被警察拦下，最终被拘留。
Or he'd get stopped by police and end up in detention.
珍妮晚上能睡着的唯一原因是，有位律师告诉他们，即使菲德尔在这种情况下被抓，也并非毫无希望。
The only way Jenny had been able to sleep at night was because a lawyer had told them that if Fidel got picked up in that situation, it wasn't hopeless.
他们可以上法庭为菲德尔辩护。
They could go in front of a judge and argue for Fidel.
他有一份好工作，没有犯罪记录，是两个孩子的父亲，还娶了美国公民。
He's got a great job, no criminal record, dad of two, married to a US citizen.
也许他们能为他争取到留下的机会。
Maybe they could make their case for him to stay.
我们只剩一张牌可打。
We had a one card to play.
这就是我所谓的。
That's that's what I call it.
就像我们手里还藏着一张王牌可以出。
It's just like we had one we had one ace in the hole that we could play.
在特朗普的第二任期，这个选项很可能会消失。
In Trump's second term, that option would probably go away.
如果菲德尔被抓，他很可能会被拘留并遣返。
And if Fidel got picked up, he'd probably be detained and deported.
珍妮看不到前进的道路。
Jenny couldn't see a path forward.
然而菲德尔却有不同的看法。
Fidel, however, saw it differently.
特朗普甚至还没正式上任。
Trump hadn't even taken office yet.
他认为她反应过度了。
He thought she was overreacting.
就像在说，你疯了吗？
It's like, are you crazy?
我不会，我哪儿也不去。
I'm not I'm not gonna go nowhere.
就像我跟她说的，我在这里待了三十年，什么事都没发生过。
It's even like I told her, it's like, I've been here for thirty years and it's nothing happened.
就像我从来没进过监狱一样。
It's like, I never be in the jail.
我也从没遭遇过严重事故。
I never be in bad accident.
我只是上班然后回家。
I just go to work and coming back.
你为什么要过度担心呢？
Why you need to worry about too much?
你知道吗，我在想，我要证明你是错的。
You know, I thinking, like, I'm gonna prove you wrong.
那种事不会发生的。
It's not gonna happen.
当我最初通过电话与维德尔和珍妮交谈时，他们正处于这种僵局中。
When I first started talking to Videl and Jenny over the phone, this is where they were, at an impasse.
现在，她就是那个人。
Right now, she's the one.
比如，我们该怎么办？
Like, what are we gonna do?
我们该怎么办？
What are we gonna do?
我觉得我大脑的某些部分似乎缺少了什么。
I think some of part of my brain is like lack of something.
是因为你觉得有时间压力吗？
Because you feel like there's time pressure?
是啊。
Yeah.
时间和我不想要
The time and the I don't want
妻子快把他逼疯了。
wife is driving him nuts.
我妻子也快把我逼疯了。
And my wife's driving me nuts.
我妻子是
My wife is
他因为逃避现实而发火。
Getting mad because he's sticking his head in the sand.
他把我的头按进沙子里。
He's sticking my head in the sand.
但就像我说的，我尽量不那样想。
But like I say, I try to not think in that way.
但就像我说的，我们是完全不同的人。
But like I said, we are we are totally different persons.
这些是女孩们无意中听到的对话。
These are the conversations the girls were overhearing.
维德尔和珍妮已经幸福地结婚十七年了。
Videl and Jenny have been married seventeen years, happily.
他们是在跳萨尔萨舞时认识的。
They met salsa dancing.
他踩到了她的脚。
He stepped on her foot.
她说，你想要我买个冰淇淋。
She said, you want me an ice cream.
他们在Denny's餐厅聊了一整晚。
They spent the night talking at Denny's.
如今，他们依然会在客厅跳萨尔萨舞，并专门留出周末早晨的时间来聊天。
These days, they still salsa dance in the living room and corner off weekend mornings just for talking.
当我让菲德尔描述这段关系中谁是什么角色时，他是这样回答的。
When I asked Fidel to describe who's who in the relationship, this is how he frames the answer.
我总是告诉她这是正极和负极。
I always tell her it's the positive and the negative.
是啊。
Yeah.
就是正极和负极。
It's the positive and the negative.
因为你是个电工。
Because you're an electrician.
你说正极和负极很有意思，因为这
It's like funny that you're saying positive and negative because that's
对。
Yeah.
就像电池的工作原理，汽车的工作原理一样。
It's like how the battery works, how the cars works.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，因为我总是乐观思考，但她总是着眼于现实。
You know, because I always think positive, know, but she always looked at reality.
她才是那个，你知道的，负责存钱的人。
She's the one, you know, saving money.
她确保家里的一切都运转正常。
She's the one make sure everything in the house works.
所有文件都处理妥当，确保女儿们上对学校。
All the paperwork is right, make sure the girls got the right school.
珍妮在家里到处贴待办事项清单。
Jenny posts to do lists around the house.
他负责执行，每完成一项就划掉。
He executes, crossing each item off as he goes along.
这就是他们俩都喜欢的方式。
That's how they both like it.
他是个有趣的爸爸。
He is the fun dad.
所有好玩的事都是他来做。
He does all the fun things.
他带孩子们出去吃冰淇淋，宠着他们。
He takes the kids out for ice cream and he spoils them.
而如果要当恶人，那就是我的角色了。
And if it's the disciplinarian, that's me.
他根本就不是个严厉的人。
He is not the disciplinarian at all.
菲德尔的风格更像是试图逗女孩们听他说话。
Fidel's style is more to try and tease the girls into listening to him.
比如，麦肯齐就喜欢穿超短裤。
For instance, Mackenzie likes to wear short shorts.
所以有一天菲德尔说，嘿，如果你要那样出门，我也要这样。
So one day Fidel said, hey, if you're going out like that, I'll do it too.
他抓起剪刀把T恤下摆剪掉，改成了露脐装。
He grabbed scissors and cut off the bottom of his t shirt and made it into a crop top.
然后他又去拿自己的短裤。
Then he reached for his shorts.
我把它们剪了，然后全卷上去，一直卷到最上面。
I cut them and I stuck it up all the way up, like stuck it up all the way up.
就像在说，嘿，如果你要这样上街，那我也要这样。
It's like, hey, if you're go to the street like that, hey, let me go too.
我们可以一起去。
We can go together.
她当时尴尬吗？
Was she embarrassed?
她说了什么？
What'd she say?
她说，我才不要和你这样一起出门。
She said, I'm not gonna go with you like that.
我爸这个人吧，就是特别特别招人烦的那种。
My dad is like, he's like very like obnoxious.
伊莎贝拉都看出来你在烦我了。
Isabella saw with you annoying me.
连珍妮弗都说，别再烦人了。
Even Jennifer said, stop being annoying.
甚至梅根也说，别烦了。
And even Megan said, stop annoying.
这是爱啊。
It's love.
不知道他们觉不觉得烦，但这确实是爱。
Don't know if it's annoying to them, but it's love.
一月份，在特朗普总统第二任期就职首日，他就宣布边境进入紧急状态，着手废除出生公民权，并暂停接收难民。
In January, on the first day of president Trump's second term, he declared a border emergency, moved to end birthright citizenship, and suspended refugee admissions.
几周内，电视上就充斥着广告。
Within weeks, the TV was full of ads.
国土安全部长克里斯蒂·诺姆向移民喊话：
Department of Homeland Security secretary Kristi Noem telling immigrants.
立刻离开。
Leave now.
如果不走，我们会找到你们并将你们驱逐出境。
If you don't, we will find you and we will deport you.
你们永远别想再回来。
You will never return.
珍妮试图了解特朗普政府计划的一切细节。
Jennie had tried to find out everything about the Trump administration's plans.
她读过关于2025项目的报道，担心如果菲德尔被抓，会被关进拘留中心，这会毁掉他们的生活。
She'd read about Project twenty twenty five and worried that if Fidel got picked up, he'd get stuck in a detention center, and it would ruin their lives.
她听过恐怖的故事，人们遭受残忍对待和虐待。
She'd heard horror stories, people being treated cruelly, getting abused.
她无法停止想象菲德尔被关在那里的画面。
She couldn't stop picturing Fidel in there.
在一个没有地方睡觉、无法打电话的牢房里。
In a cell with nowhere to sleep, no way to call.
如果他出来时变成了与进去时完全不同的人怎么办？
What if he came out a completely different person than he went in?
她不想让她那可爱的傻丈夫经历这些。
She didn't want that for her sweet goofball of a husband.
他们是否需要耗尽毕生积蓄才能把他救出来？
And would they have to spend their life savings to get him out?
他们认识的一对夫妇中，丈夫就被抓走了。
One couple they were friends with, the husband had gotten picked up.
他们欠律师超过5万美元的债务。
They are over $50,000 in debt to attorneys.
所以你彻底摧毁了这对夫妇的生活。
So you have destroyed, absolutely destroyed this couple's life.
但菲德尔告诉她，他愿意承担这个风险。
But Fidel told her he was willing to take the risk.
他想留下来。
He wanted to stay.
我说，那如果你被抓了，你想怎么办？
And I said, so what do you want to do if you get picked up?
告诉我那会是什么情形。
Tell me what that looks like.
所以如果我们决定赌一把留下来，万一你被抓了会怎样？
So if we're just gonna take our chances and we're gonna stay, what happens if you get picked up?
在那次谈话中，他说如果自己因任何事被捕，不希望我花钱保释他。
During that conversation, he said, I don't want you to spend any money to get me out if he were to get picked up for anything.
我告诉他必须亲自告诉孩子们这件事，因为如果真出意外，他们永远不会原谅我。
And I told him that he needed to tell his children that because if something were to happen, they would never forgive me.
他们绝不会原谅我把他留在那里。
They would never forgive me for leaving him in there.
即使这是我们共同做的决定，他们也不会原谅我，因为这类事情向来都是我负责解决的。
Even if it was a decision that he and I made together, they would never forgive me because I'm the fixer for all these kind of things.
菲德尔认为，除非移民局真的出现在他们这个距离北卡罗来纳州罗利市一小时车程的郊区小镇，其实没什么可担心的。
Fidel felt that unless ICE was here here, like in their small suburban town an hour outside Raleigh, North Carolina, there really wasn't much to worry about.
他觉得胜算在自己这边。
He figured the odds are with him.
去年冬天他们进行这些对话时，全美1400万无证移民中被逮捕的比例还不到千分之五。
When they were having these conversations last winter, ICE had arrested less than half of one percent of the 14,000,000 undocumented people in the country.
况且特朗普当时还在宣称只追捕罪犯，而菲德尔并不认为自己是个罪犯。
Besides, Trump was still saying that he was going after criminals and Fidel didn't see himself as a criminal.
他是位纳税的父亲，也是位成功的电工，帮助在当地建造公立学校。
He was a tax paying dad, a successful electrician helping build public schools in the area.
如果菲德尔被拘留并驱逐出境，那将是一场灾难。
If Fidel got detained and deported, it'd be disastrous.
但这可能性实在太小了。
But it was just so unlikely.
珍妮不打算干等着菲德尔同意她的意见来制定计划。
Jenny wasn't going to wait around for Fidel to agree with her, to make a plan.
她开始独自准备，把自己关在家里的办公室开始工作。
She started prepping on her own, hold herself away in her home office and got to work.
整理这些装满工资单、收据和文书资料的巨大紫色活页夹。
Putting together these massive purple binders of pay stubs, receipts, paperwork.
他的出生证明、所有护照和身份证件的复印件，还有我们的纳税申报表副本。
His birth certificate, a copy of all of his passports and identification, just copies of our tax returns.
数百份文件用于应对他被捕或拘留的情况，这些能证明菲德尔三十年来一直在这里工作，而非犯罪。
Hundreds of documents in the case of his arrests or detainment that she could use to prove that Fidel had been here working, not committing crimes for the past thirty years.
她在活页夹上标注了'紧急情况备用'。
She labeled the binders in case of emergency.
菲德尔觉得这一切有点...
Fidel found it all a little bit.
烦人。
Annoying.
就是，特别烦人。
Like, annoying.
比如，她想让我走。
Like, she want me to go.
你知道，就是，想让我离开。
You know, like, want me to go.
这伤害到你的感情了吗？
Did it hurt your feelings?
她可能希望你离开的这个想法？
This idea that she might want you to go?
我想是的。
I guess, yes.
你知道，就是，是的。
You know, like, yes.
比如，你为什么想让我走？
Like, why do you want me to go?
就好像，我的生活都在这里。
It's like, my life is in here.
这就是让我受伤的地方。
That is it hurts.
你有没有
Did you
告诉过她这伤害了你的感情？
ever tell her that it hurt your feelings?
没有。
No.
我觉得这就像一种自豪，怎么说呢，骄傲？
I think it's like a it's it's like a proud how you say, proud?
骄傲的事情。
Proud thing.
我不会告诉你什么让我受伤，你知道的。
I'm not gonna tell you what hurts, you know.
麦肯齐和贝拉能理解父母关于他是否应该去的争论。
Mackenzie and Bella could understand both parents' arguments over whether he should go.
但站在父亲那边更容易些。
But it was easier to side with their dad.
他说没什么可担心的。
He was saying there was nothing to worry about.
一切都很好，可以保持现状。
Everything was fine and things could stay the same.
我和贝拉都倾向于让我父亲留在美国。
Me and Bella both swayed to the side of keeping my dad in United States.
我们就是不太想让他走。
We kinda just didn't want him to go.
所以我们有点像...我不知道我们是不是在逃避，更像是我们根本没认真考虑过这事，我猜。
So we kinda like just I don't know if we like avoided it more like, we just like didn't really think about it, I guess.
那会是个阴影。
It'd be a shadow.
但我确实觉得当我们在家时它会显现出来。
And I definitely feel like it would come out though when we were like at home.
就好像我们什么都没做一样。
And like if it we weren't doing anything.
如果我们作为一个家庭相处，那感觉就像是，哦，这一切可能会结束。
If we were being a family, it would be like, oh, this might come to an end.
他们怀着某种形式的这种恐惧已经五年多了。
They've been sitting with some version of this dread for over five years.
他们早在2020年就第一次得知父亲可能不得不搬回墨西哥，当时唐纳德·特朗普正在竞选连任。
They first learned that their dad might have to move to Mexico back in 2020, when Donald Trump was running for a second term.
那时他们还在读五年级和七年级，母亲珍妮害怕特朗普在第二任期会对移民采取什么措施，觉得必须让女儿们做好准备——她们当时完全不知道父亲没有合法身份，也不知道他可能不得不离开。
They were in fifth and seventh grade, and their mom Jenny was scared of what Trump would do with immigration in a second term, and felt like she had to prepare the girls, who at that time had no idea at all that their dad was undocumented or that he might have to leave.
当然，这是改变人生的消息。
Of course, this was life altering news.
我当时哭了。
I was crying.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know that.
你也哭了吗？
Were you crying too?
是的。
Yeah.
毫无疑问。
Definitely.
我清楚地记得试图用手遮住这里来掩饰我在哭。
I distinctly remember trying to hide the fact that I was crying by like putting my hand right here.
然后我会像这样趴在桌子上，把脸埋在手臂里。
And then I would like lay down on the desk in my arm like that.
就像我不想让别人看到我在哭。
Like I did not wanna be crying.
所以，是的。
So, yeah.
问题是我真的不喜欢眼泪流到脸上的感觉。
Thing is just I don't like the feeling of, like, it on my face, really.
所以当我忍不住要哭时，我会尽量在眼泪流到这里之前擦掉。
So when I try to cry, I try to, like, get it before it gets, like, down to here area.
所以
So
他们的父母要求他们不要告诉任何人，这让这个大消息感觉更加沉重。
Their parents asked them not to tell anyone, which made this big news feel even heavier.
突然间，他们觉得自己和学校里其他孩子不一样了。
Suddenly, they felt different from the other kids at school.
事情也开始变得更有道理了，因为人们常说结婚后应该由丈夫开车。
Things started to also just make more sense because like, also people like describe like when you're married, like, the man's supposed to drive.
然后我就想，哦，但我爸爸不开车，后来我意识到可能是因为他没有驾照。
And then I'm like, oh, but like, my dad doesn't drive like and then I was like, oh, that's probably why because he doesn't have a license.
菲德尔确实会开车。
Fidel does drive.
但当全家人在一起时，开车的是珍妮。
But when the family's together, Jenny's the one who drives.
我开始明白为什么我们不怎么旅行了。
I started understanding why we didn't travel as much.
比如，我总听朋友们说他们去了加拿大、欧洲之类的地方。
Like, I heard my friends all the time saying they traveled to, like, like, Canada or, like, Europe or whatever.
我不知道五岁小孩去欧洲能干什么，但随便吧。
I don't know what a five year old's doing in Europe, but whatever.
但听着他们的旅行经历，我就想为什么我们从不旅行？
But it was like, you could hear them traveling and I was like, why don't we ever travel?
所以我渐渐开始理解原因了。
And so I kinda under started understanding why.
这种新的认知带来了恐惧。
With this new understanding came fear.
麦肯齐开始做关于冰的噩梦。
Mackenzie started having nightmares about ice.
他们闯进来，几乎像电影里那样破门而入。
They come in, like, break into the house almost like a movie.
我们知道他们要来，都躲在电视机后面。
And then we know that they're coming, but we're all hiding in the house behind the TV.
然后他们发现了我爸爸，我躲着但还能看见他。
And then they find, like, my dad, and, like, I'm standing hiding away, but I still see him.
他们就那样把他带走了。
And they're just, like, taking him away.
那是在七年级的时候。
That was in seventh grade.
她现在长大了。
She's older now.
但当特朗普再次上任时，噩梦又回来了，她开始听到父母争吵。
But the nightmares returned when Trump took office again, and she started overhearing her parents arguing.
情况又回到了原点。
The situation was back.
你们之间会讨论这件事吗？
Do you guys ever talk about it amongst yourselves?
实际上我觉得我们没谈过这个。
I actually don't think we've talked about it.
是啊。
Yeah.
没有。
No.
我们真的不怎么谈这个。
We don't really talk about it.
我想我们俩的做法一样
I think that we both do the same thing
就是我们会尽量在谈话中避开这个话题。
where we We try to, like, avoid it in conversation.
我不记得我们曾经主动提起过这件事来聊。
I don't think we've ever, like, brought it up willingly just to talk.
因为这就像，我们只能坐在那里伤心。
Because it's just, like, we're gonna sit there and be sad.
相反，他们通过分散注意力来处理家里的紧张气氛。
Instead, they dealt with the tension in the house by distracting themselves.
我记得有段时间，麦肯锡迷上了跑步，她经常跑
I think there was at one point, Mackenzie had a running phase where she ran
我冬天每晚都跑步，因为那时特朗普刚当选。
I every ran every night during the wintertime because like, Trump had just won.
所有这些事情就一直在我脑海里盘旋。
And then all these things were just sitting in my head.
而且她不喜欢在湖边跑步。
And she doesn't like running in the lake.
她不喜欢跑步时被人盯着看。
She doesn't like people looking at her while she runs.
确实。
Exactly.
太奇怪了。
It's so weird.
天黑时她会跑步，我就骑自行车跟在她旁边，因为我完全跑不动。
When it'd get dark, she would run and I would ride my bike next to her cause I cannot run or anything.
真的，太糟糕了。
Like, it's so bad.
不过，是啊。
But, yeah.
男孩子们都跟谁聊天？
Who do guys talk to?
我想当我散步时，我们会聊天，但
I think when I would be walking, we would talk but
这一定是
it must
关于学校戏剧的事。
be about school drama.
他们会一直跑步骑车，直到太晚不能在外面待着为止。
They'd run and bike for as long as they could until it was too late to be out.
只有那时他们才会回家。
And only then would they go home.
孩子们经过正在看晚间新闻的父母身边，上楼去了。
Trapes passed their parents watching the evening news and go upstairs.
并不是我不关心正在发生的事情。
It's not like I don't care about what's going on.
更像是这件事本身就让人难过，就像，你要么永远难过下去，要么把它屏蔽掉继续生活之类的。
It's more like it's like just sad and it's like, well, like, if you're gonna you're gonna be sad forever or like you're gonna block it out and just move on or something.
但特朗普政府不希望任何人忽视他们的所作所为。
But the Trump administration did not want anyone to block out what they were doing.
他们想让自己的移民政策登上各大媒体和社交媒体的头条。
They wanted their immigration policies splashed across headlines in social media.
他们想让这些政策深植于国民心理，特别是像这样的家庭中。
They wanted them embedded in the nation's psyche, especially in families like this one.
三月时，头条新闻是基尔马·阿贝戈·加西亚被错误地从马里兰州驱逐出境，与另外260人一同关进了萨尔瓦多臭名昭著的海警监狱。
In March, the headlines were, Kilmar Abego Garcia was mistakenly deported from Maryland to the notorious sea cop prison in El Salvador along with 260 other people.
特朗普政府在海关与边境保护局应用程序中添加了‘自我驱逐’按钮。
The Trump administration added a self deport button to the customs and border protection app.
与此同时，麦肯齐周末在Jersey Mike's三明治店打工。
Meanwhile, Mackenzie was working weekends at Jersey Mike's.
贝拉参加了摔跤队。
Bella was on the wrestling team.
沙恩·菲德尔在客厅练习格斗术。
Shane Fidel practiced grappling in the living room.
大多数周末他都开车送女孩们去参加足球比赛，在场边为她们加油。
He drove the girls to soccer games most weekends, cheering them on from the sidelines.
珍妮用红色卡纸把写满小卡片贴满了前门。
Jenny taped little cards all over the front door on red construction paper.
如果ICE（移民海关执法局）来敲门该怎么办。
What to do if ice comes knocking.
贝拉的十五岁生日即将到来。
Bella's fifteenth birthday was coming up.
这是她的成人礼年，非常重要。
Her quinceanera year, a big deal.
菲德尔和珍妮不断询问她对派对的想法和计划，但她总是推脱。
Fidel and Jenny kept asking her about plans and ideas for the party, but she just kept pushing it off.
有次她父母甚至问她：‘你是想要成人礼派对，还是改要一辆车？’
At one point, her parents even asked her, do you want a quince or a car instead?
她说要办成人礼。
Quince, she said.
我本来想要一个，但后来我想了想，觉得如果他实际上并不在场怎么办？
I wanted one, But then I was like, I was thinking about it and I was like, what if he's not actually like there for it?
因为父亲在成人礼中扮演着重要角色。
Like, the the dad is like a big part of a quince.
所以我就想，如果他甚至不能和我一起庆祝呢？
So I was like, what if he's like not even there to like celebrate it with me?
我真的想要那样吗？
Do I really like want that?
然后我就觉得，没有他我不想办成人礼。
And I was like, I don't want a quince without him.
所以我不想经历所有策划的麻烦，结果他却不在场。
So I didn't wanna go through like all the trouble of planning it and then him not being there.
所以我就想，哦，我不想再继续了。
So I was like, oh, I don't wanna do this anymore.
所以她取消了计划。
So She called it off.
我对此很不高兴。
I was not happy with that.
你知道吗，就像是在说，什么？
You know, it's like What?
我只想办这个派对。
I I just wanna do the party.
我只是想看到伊莎贝拉开心。
I was just wanna see Isabella happy.
但事情就是这样。
But it's it is what it is.
你懂吗？
You know?
我们需要计划一切，承受那种压力，然后不知怎么的，事情发生了，他们却说，哦，你爸爸不会来参加派对。
We need to plan everything and have that stress and for some reason it happened and they're like, oh, your dad is not gonna be there in the party.
我觉得那会是很糟糕的情况。
I think that'd be pretty bad thing to happen.
瓦莱丽·基普尼斯。
Valerie Kipnis.
接下来，家庭压力加剧，孩子们无意中听到了一些他们从未听过的事情。
Coming up, the pressure on the family increases, and the kids overhear something they haven't heard before.
稍后继续。
That's in a minute.
芝加哥公共电台，节目即将继续。
Chicago Public Radio, when our program continues.
这就是美国生活。
Just American Life.
今天的节目《同一屋檐下》。
Today's program, Under One Roof.
讲述家庭成员间对同一经历有着截然不同看法的家庭故事。
Stories of families going through experiences where different family members see things very differently from each other.
我们正在讲述瓦莱丽·基普尼斯关于里维拉一家的故事，他们正试图决定是否应该自我遣返。
We're in the middle of Valerie Kipnis' story about the Rivera family trying to figure out if they should self deport.
我们从春天开始讲起。
We pick up in the spring.
珍妮和菲德尔之间的僵局日益恶化。
The stalemate between Jenny and Fidel was getting worse.
每天珍妮都会上网，试图规划可能的搬迁方案。
Every day Jenny went online, trying to think through a possible move.
她浏览墨西哥的房屋信息，试图找到他们负担得起且有外籍社区的城镇。
She scrolled through houses in Mexico, tried to find towns they could afford with expat communities.
她为不会说西班牙语的女儿们查找英语学校。
She looked up English language schools for the girls who don't speak Spanish.
她把所有这些给菲德尔看，他不情愿地附和着。
She showed all this to Fidel and he went along with it, begrudgingly.
他认为这没有必要。
He didn't think it was necessary.
这几个月来的压力和争吵，最终演变成了一场客厅里的对峙，珍妮和菲德尔隔着房间互相吼叫。
And all these months of pressure, of arguing, culminated in this one fight when Jenny and Fidel found themselves standing across from each other in the living room yelling.
没人记得争吵是如何开始的。
No one can remember what started the fight.
他们只记得那些吼叫声。
What they do remember is the yelling.
我想孩子们在楼上听到了这些动静。
I think the kids are upstairs and they hear that stuff.
你怎么知道的？
How do you know?
我很确定他们听到我们喊得很大声。
I'm pretty sure they hear we yelling pretty loud stuff.
你知道的，我们喊得很大声。
You know, we're yelling pretty loud.
彼此之间，就像我脑子里想的，你是不是疯了？
Each other, it's like I think in the top of my head, it's like, aren't you crazy?
如果我们互相吼叫，这事就不会发生。
It's not gonna happen if we're yelling each other.
这对你来说不寻常吗？
Was that unusual for you?
是的。
Yes.
那是惯性，因为，比如说，十七年来我们从未对彼此吼叫过。
That is inertia because, like, say, seventeen years, we never yell at each other.
对吧？
Right?
所以这时候我开始想，她压力太大了。
So it's it's that is when my head start thinking, like, she's she's overstressed.
这时候我的脑子开始转起来了。
And it's like this is when now is when my head start to kick in.
就像，我得做点什么，你懂吧。
It's like, I need to do something, you know.
我需要开始思考了。
I need to I need to start thinking.
事实是，比德尔的决心开始动摇。
The truth was Bedell's resolve was starting to unravel.
他一直认为，只要附近的工作场所没被突袭，他就安全。
He had always believed that until job sites near him got raided, he was okay.
没什么可担心的。
There was nothing to worry about.
但到了春天，北卡罗来纳州的ICE逮捕人数比去年同期增加了一倍多。
But by the spring, ICE arrests in North Carolina had more than doubled since the same time last year.
他开始清点工作场所的人数。
He started counting heads at work.
有人失踪了吗？
Was anyone missing?
他开始在开车或看到警察时感到紧张。
He started getting nervous whenever he was driving or when he saw a cop.
五月，特朗普政府启动了‘归国计划’，提供一千美元和免费机票让人们离开美国。
In May, the Trump administration created Project Homecoming, offering people a thousand dollars and a free plane ticket to leave the country.
他们定期在社交媒体发布胜利视频：配备霰弹枪的探员破门而入，突袭民宅和工作场所，戴镣铐的人被押上飞机——背景音乐常带有嘲讽意味。
They regularly posted triumphant videos on social media of agents with gators and guns, blasting doors, raiding people's homes and workplaces, of people in shackles being led onto planes, often to the tune of trolling music.
警察。
The police.
现在我
Now I
想要。
want.
过来。
Come here.
这里。
Here.
这里。
Here.
越过我。
Over me.
菲德尔观看了这些视频和其他正在疯传的内容，它们对他产生的影响可能正是特朗普政府所期望的。
Fidel watched those videos and others that were going viral, and and they had the effect on him that the Trump administration probably wanted.
这些视频吓到了他。
They scared him.
我想我是在电视上看到孩子们与父母分离的场景。
I think I saw it in the TV when the kids separated with the parent.
那些视频里，他们抓走母亲，将母子分离，孩子留在原地哭泣，或者母亲再也没回来，孩子们茫然无措。
That videos where they grab the mom and separate the mom and the kid stay crying or the mom never coming back and the kids thinking, what are they gonna do?
就像，我不想让我的孩子有那种感受。
It's like, I don't want that feeling for my kids.
我不想让他们有那种感受。
I don't wanna give them that that feeling.
有一天，麦肯齐在社交媒体上看到ICE在他们地区活动的报道。
One day, Mackenzie saw reports on social media that ICE was in their area.
她给父母发了短信。
She texted her parents.
菲德尔回了个滑稽的表情符号，还说别担心。
Fidel texted her back a goofy face emoji and don't worry about it.
但她总想着这些事让他很困扰。
But it bothered him that she was thinking about this stuff.
我在六月份打电话给他跟进情况。
I called him in June to check-in.
他朋友的兄弟在附近工作，他们的工地刚遭到突击检查。
His friend's brother who worked nearby, his job site had just been raided.
菲德尔正全神贯注于北卡罗来纳州议会审议的两项法案——这些法案将迫使公路巡逻队等州立机构与ICE移民局合作。
And Fidel was preoccupied with two bills in front of the North Carolina legislature that would force state agencies, like Highway Patrol, to cooperate with ICE.
去年几乎整年，当詹妮弗告诉我时，感觉就像，嘿，你开始制定计划时，我觉得不会有什么事的。
Almost all last year when Jennifer told me, it's like, hey, when you start to making a plan as I go, I don't think it's nothing gonna happen.
但现在尤其是这两项法案出台后，感觉就像，哦，我想我妻子是对的。
But now it's especially with these two bills, it's like, oh, I think it's I think my wife is right.
哇。
Wow.
菲德尔，上次我们谈话时，你还有点犹豫不决。
Fidel, last time that you and I spoke, you were kinda like, I don't know.
她有点小题大做。
She's a bit dramatic.
比如，我不确定是否需要这么做。
Like, I don't know if I need to do this.
是的。
Yeah.
这是个巨大的改变。
It's a big change.
对。
Yes.
你知道，我每天都在一点点消化这件事。
It's you know, every day I was, like, a little bit processing.
就像，我需要开始思考，需要改变我的思维方式。
It's like, I need to start thinking and, like, I need to, like, change change my switch.
压垮菲德尔的最后一根稻草是鳄鱼岛监狱。
The last straw for Fidel was Alligator Alcatraz.
我可不想待在这种地方。
I'm not I'm not gonna be in one of that places.
这就是我的转变点。
That is that is my switch.
五个月前詹妮弗告诉我他们要建拘留中心时。
When Jennifer tell me five months ago, hey, they're gonna build detention centers.
我当时甚至对她说：你疯了吗？
And I even I told her, she's like, you crazy?
他们不会真的建的。
They're not gonna build.
结果三个月后，第一个拘留中心就建成了，而且我敢肯定还会更多。
And three months later, like, we got the first one, you know, and I'm pretty sure maybe it's gonna be more.
经过这么多个月，这么多谈话后，菲德尔终于同意他需要离开。
After all those months, all those conversations, Fidel finally agreed that he needed to leave.
也许和家人一起，但很可能独自走。
Maybe with the family, but probably alone.
于是在六月，他让珍妮坐下来谈。
So in June, he sat Jenny down.
每逢周六或周日早晨，我们会坐在沙发上。
The Saturdays or Sundays, we sit in the couch in the mornings.
然后我...我就告诉她，好吧。
And I and I, like, I told her, it's like, okay.
行吧。
Fine.
我要走了。
I'm going.
我得走了。
I gotta go.
嗯。
Yeah.
然后她问，你确定吗？
And it's like, do you sure?
我说，是的。
And I say, yes.
她的脸色立刻就变了。
Like, the face changed right away.
比如，她感到解脱了吗？
Like, she was relieved?
比如，她脸上有种释然的表情。
Like, a relief in her face.
比如，我觉得他终于明白了。
Like, I think finally he understand.
比如，终于啊。
Like, finally.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过确实。
But yeah.
这这这挺好的。
It's it's it's good.
没关系。
It's fine.
这就是珍妮一直以来所要求的。
This is what Jenny had been asking for all along.
她目睹特朗普政府对移民的打击不断升级，这段日子过得很艰难。
She's had such a hard time watching the Trump administration's war against immigrants escalate.
但我已经在这种恐惧和恐慌中生活了十六年，我再也承受不了了。
But I've already been living in that fear and panic for sixteen years, and I can't take any more.
也许换作别人可以熬过去，但我不行。
And maybe if I was a different person, I could wait it out, but I'm not.
我就是我。
I am who I am.
我经常想，那些支持特朗普的人，如果他们思考这个问题，会觉得这就是目的——让人们害怕，让人们自行离开、自我驱逐，对吧？
Something I think a lot is like people who do support Trump, like if they were to think about this, they would feel like this is the point, is for people to be scared, is for people to leave to self deport, right?
这是否让你觉得某种程度上像是在承认失败，举起白旗说‘你赢了’，还是并非如此？
And it feels like is there a part of you that feels like this is like admitting, like raising the white flag and being like, you won or no?
是的。
Yeah.
感觉就像你放弃了。
Feels like you're giving up.
确实如此。
It absolutely does.
但如果你多年来一直生活在我们所处的这种炼狱中，无法为自己的未来、孩子的未来、生活做任何计划，终有一天每个人都会举起那面白旗。
But if you'd been living in the purgatory that we've been in for all of these years, and you weren't able to make any plans for your future, for your kid's future, for your life, at some point, everybody's gonna raise that white flag.
所以我也举了。
And so I am.
我只是再也撑不下去了。
I just can't do it anymore.
与此同时，菲德尔几十年来一直觉得，尽管他是非法入境，但现在他已经在这里扎根了。
Meanwhile, Fidel has spent decades feeling like even though he entered the country illegally, he was here now.
他会按规矩办事。
And he'd do things by the book.
努力工作，缴纳永远拿不回来的社保，支持孩子的足球队和女童子军，希望美国人民能看到他和许多其他人所做的贡献。
Work hard at his job, pay into social security he'll never get back, Support his kid's soccer team and girl scout troops hoping that the people of America would see what he and so many other people were doing.
他们已经在为这个国家做贡献，应该接纳他们，让他们成为正式公民。
That they were already contributing to this country and embrace them and make them full citizens.
但现在他意识到，这个协议永远不会达成。
But now, he realized that deal was never gonna come.
事实上，很多人甚至不希望他留在这里。
In fact, a lot of people didn't even want him here.
他无法停止思考自己为在这个国家立足付出了多少艰辛，摘橙子、采烟草。
He couldn't stop thinking about how hard he'd worked to make it in this country, picking oranges and tobacco.
他从电气公司的清洁工做起，多年来一步步晋升。
He'd started as a sweeper at his electrical company, worked his way up for years.
我认为我感到愤怒的原因之一是因为你正处于事业巅峰。
I think that is one of the reason I feel angry is because you are on top of your career.
帕特尔正处于事业顶峰，负责管理项目和团队。
Patel's at the peak of his career, running projects and crews.
比如，我那么拼命工作。
Like, I worked so hard.
我那么拼命工作。
I worked so hard.
你知道，我从最底层做起，一路奋斗上来。
You know, I worked start from the bottom and go all the way up.
而现在我又要重新开始。
And now I'm gonna start again.
但现在的区别是我已经50岁了。
But now the difference is I'm 50 years old.
我还没到30岁。
I'm not 30 years old.
我的腿和手都不会和以前一样了。
My legs is not gonna be the same, and my hands is not gonna be the same.
接着，菲德尔和珍妮告诉女孩们，她们的父亲将在圣诞节后离开。
Next, Fidel and Jenny told the girls their dad would leave after Christmas.
女孩们并没有太当回事。
And the girls didn't really take it seriously.
她们几个月来一直在谈论菲德尔要离开的事。
They've been talking about Fidel leaving for months.
这次感觉就像是又一个遥遥无期的更新。
This just felt like another update so far away.
几个月来，珍妮一直在规划他们在墨西哥的选择，但情况并不乐观。
For months, Jenny had been gaming out their Mexico options and they weren't great.
首先是钱的问题。
There was the money.
她只需要再工作几年，五年后就能拿到全额养老金。
She had just a few more years, five years before she could get her full pension.
如果现在搬走，他们可以在墨西哥过得舒适，但可能永远无法再回美国生活。
If she moved away now, they could live comfortably in Mexico but probably never could come back to live in The US again.
他们负担不起。
They couldn't afford it.
所以她决定可能不会搬家。
So she decided she probably wouldn't move.
这不值得。
It wasn't worth it.
至于女孩们，她找不到一所英语教学优秀的公立学校。
As for the girls, she couldn't find them a public school with a good English speaking program.
但她希望这是全家共同的决定。
But she wanted this to be a family decision.
于是珍妮把女孩们叫到客厅开家庭会议。
So Jenny called the girls into the living room for a family meeting.
我们都坐在楼下，就在那边的沙发上。
We were all sitting downstairs, like, over there on the couches.
我坐在中间，妈妈独自坐在那边的沙发上，爸爸坐在我旁边，而我...
Sitting in the middle and my mom's like over there on that couch by herself and my dad's sitting next to me And I And
我想我是在地板上。
I think I'm on the floor.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你是在地板上。
I think you're on the floor.
珍妮举起了她的iPad。
Jenny held up her iPad.
屏幕上显示着墨西哥一处房屋的房源信息。
On it was the listing for a house in Mexico.
她说：看看我找到的这个房子。
She was like, check out this house I found.
也许我们可以一起搬到墨西哥去住。
Maybe we could all move down to Mexico together.
你想住在那里吗？
Would you wanna live there?
去那里上学？
Go to school there?
姐姐麦肯齐是第一个回应的。
Mackenzie, the older sister, was the first to respond.
我想我一开始就拒绝了。
I think I said no to begin with.
我当时说，我不想要那样。
I was like, I don't want that.
我们不是有过
Didn't we have a
一段插曲吗，贝拉？
whole thing, Bella?
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。