本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
最近，移民官员做了许多看似难以解释的事情，比如无视法院命令、射杀平民。
Immigration officials have been doing a lot of things lately that seem very hard to explain, ignoring court orders, shooting civilians.
当人们问起这些事情为何发生时，正如我们所有人所见，官员们并没有给出坦诚真实的解释，而是抛出一些宣传口径，而这些说法很多都被证明并不属实。
And when asked why these things are happening, as we've all seen, we don't exactly get a frank and honest account from officials, but we get our talking points, many of which don't turn out to be true.
但最近，令人耳目一新的是，两位为移民和海关执法局工作的律师分别站了出来，掀开了帷幕，揭示了当前我们的移民系统内部正在发生的一系列细节。
But recently, refreshingly, two different lawyers who work for ICE stepped forward separately and lifted the curtain to reveal all kinds of details about what is really happening right now inside our immigration system.
我知道这两位人士的一些言论已经出现在新闻中，但我必须说，当你深入探究他们所目睹的一切时，那种感觉令人无比满足——这种满足感是我自己都没意识到多么渴望的，因为他们谈论的不是某一件具体事件，而是整个系统的全面崩溃，而且他们把一切都清晰地摊开了。
And I know there have been a couple of quotes from each of these people in the news, but I have to say, when you dive into the details of everything that they witnessed, it's satisfying in this way that I really didn't even know I craved because they're not talking about, like, this or that specific incident, but about the entire system being broken, and they lay it out.
今天在节目中，我们将为大家讲述他们的故事，我想你们会明白我的意思。
Today on the show, what we're gonna do is we're gonna bring you their stories, and I think you'll see what I mean.
来自WBC芝加哥的《美国人生》。
From WBC Chicago, it's This American Life.
我是埃里克·格拉斯，我们现在就直接进入第一幕。
I'm Eric Glass, and we're just gonna jump right in right now with act one.
第一幕：我收到了备忘录。
Act one, I got the memo.
好的。
Okay.
这件事就发生在两周前。
So this thing just happened two weeks ago.
但这位来自移民与海关执法局的律师走进了一间满是国会议员的房间，发表了证词，彻底毁掉了他多年来努力追求的一切。
But this lawyer from ICE walked into a room full of congresspeople and gave testimony that basically just blew up his entire life, like everything he'd worked towards for years.
究竟发生了什么极端的事情，让他决定不再为移民与海关执法局的特工提供培训和法律服务，而是选择成为举报人？
What was so extreme that he decided to stop training ICE agents and stop lawyering for ICE agents and instead became a whistleblower?
我们的制片人纳迪亚·雷蒙德采访了他。
Our producer, Nadia Raymond, talked to him.
这位举报人瑞安·施万克会自豪地告诉你，他是一名公职人员。
This whistleblower, Ryan Schwank, will tell you proudly that he's a public servant.
他不制定政策，也不打算这么做，谢谢。
Doesn't make policy and doesn't want to, thanks very much.
即使他并不总是认同，只要合法，他都愿意执行上级的决定。
Not that he always agrees, but he's fine executing whatever the people in charge wanna do, as long as it's legal.
他是在拜登总统执政期间开始为政府工作的。
He started working for the government under President Biden.
他之前代表移民，但现在他代表国土安全部的移民与海关执法局（ICE），处理移民案件。
He'd been representing immigrants, but now he was representing ICE in the Department of Homeland Security, prosecuting immigration cases.
在他看来，无论在哪个角色中，他都在履行同样的职责：确保程序公正、正当法律程序，让系统对每个人都能公平有效地运行。
The way he saw it, he was fulfilling the same purpose in both roles, ensuring procedural fairness, due process, making sure the system worked the same for everyone and worked smoothly.
如果事情变得混乱或拖延，比如拜登政府在移民案件上行动迟缓时，他会感到困扰。
It bugged him if things got mucky or slow, like when the Biden administration was dragging its feet on immigration cases.
但去年五月，在特朗普政府时期，所有ICE律师都收到了令瑞安感到不安的指示。
But then last May, under the Trump administration, all ICE lawyers got instructions that Ryan found alarming.
他们被要求在出庭时请求驳回案件，这使得ICE特工可以当场逮捕移民，往往就在他们走出法庭门的那一刻。
They were told to ask for their cases to be dismissed when they went to court, which allowed ICE agents to arrest immigrants right there and then, often as soon as they walked out the door.
瑞安心想：如果连陈述自己情况的时间都没有，人们怎么享有正当法律程序呢？而且他们还会立即被逮捕？
Ryan was like, how could people have due process if there's no time to make their case, and then they're getting immediately arrested?
他不确定该怎么做，但他是个极其遵守规则的人，因此他没有向任何人透露这些新指示，甚至连他的妻子都没告诉。
He wasn't sure what to do, but he's such a rule follower that he didn't tell anyone about these new instructions, not even his wife.
这就是当律师的麻烦之处。
That's kind of the problem with being a lawyer.
对吧？
Right?
我可以和她聊聊一般性的问题。
I can talk to her about generalities.
但我不能和她讨论具体的政策。
I can't talk to her about specific policies.
哦，所以你只是觉得整体上有点不对劲？
Oh, so you were just like, I'm generally feeling this?
差不多吧。
Kind of.
是的。
Yeah.
我尽量谨慎，不泄露机构的做法，但我还是向她解释了，类似这样的事情正在发生。
I try to be very careful with what I would say to, like, not give away agency practices, but I kind of explained to her like, you know, this this kind of thing happening.
当然，两天后这件事就上了新闻。
And then of course it was out in the news like two days later.
对吧？
Right?
她有没有建议你做些什么，还是只是说，我觉得我们……
What did she did she advise you to do something or was she like, here's what I think we
她只是说，遵循你的职业伦理准则。
just said, follow follow your ethical guidelines.
对吧？
Right?
她说，你知道的，去处理一下。
She said, you know, get it.
实际上，我觉得是她建议我联系律师协会的。
She was the one actually, I think, suggested calling the bar association.
所以我就这么做了。
So that's what I did.
她说，你知道，你应该打那个热线电话。
She's like, know, you should call that hotline.
我知道他们有这个热线。
I know they have one.
所以他打了。
So he did.
他联系了州律师协会，他们说，没错。
He called the state bar association, and they said, yep.
这不符合职业道德。
That's not ethical.
他跟他的老板谈了。
He talked to his boss.
他老板说，好的，我明白了。
His boss said, okay, I get it.
你不必做这些。
You don't have to do these.
我会做的。
I'll do them.
但瑞安意识到，他只能逃避这些事这么长时间。
But Ryan figured that he could only dodge these for so long.
于是他开始思考自己接下来该何去何从。
So he started to wonder what was next for him.
有一天，他的主管告诉他，你知道吗，随着国土安全部正在招聘数千名新的ICE特工，他们需要人去佐治亚州格伦科培训这些新员工。
Then one day, his supervisor told him, you know, with the surge of thousands of new ICE agents DHS is hiring, they need people to train them in Glencoe, Georgia.
你有兴趣吗？
You interested?
对我来说，这看起来是个绝佳的机会。
And to me, it seemed like a great opportunity.
一方面，这也有点出于私心。
One, part of it was self interested.
比如，如果我是去格伦科授课的律师，我就不是在法庭上必须面对伦理问题的律师——比如，我是否该继续起诉这个案子？
Like, if I'm the attorney who's in Glencoe teaching, I'm not the attorney in the courtroom who's having to answer the ethical question of, am I okay prosecuting this case?
你就只是说，不关我的事。
You were just like, not it.
我要躲开，去做别的事，这样我就不用
I'm gonna dodge and go do this other thing so that I don't get
我的意思是，我真希望情况不是这样。
I mean, I I would love to say otherwise.
我真希望可以说，这完全是出于职业导向之类的因素。
Like, I would love to be like, this was just, a 100%, like, profile encouraged type stuff.
对吧？
Right?
但事实并非如此。
But it's not.
这是因为我看到了趋势，也看到了做好事的机会。
It's it's a combination of I could see the writing on the wall, and I saw the opportunity to do good.
这是一个去教学的机会，而我一直都喜欢教学。
This was an opportunity to go teach, which is something I've always liked doing.
但当我到达格伦科时，一切都变了。
But then, of course, I got to Glencoe and all of that changed the day I got there.
9月1日是我抵达佐治亚州格伦科的日子。
So September 1 was my was the day I arrived in Glencoe, Georgia.
我得查一下我的记录，但我记得9月2日是我第一天去学院。
I have to back with my records, but I think it was September 2 was the first morning that I went to the Academy.
我一大早就到了，必须去办理徽章。
I showed up early in the morning and I had to go through and get my badge.
然后我去了学院培训大楼。
And then I went to the Academy Training Building.
在那里，我听到的第一件事是关于学员背景调查的讨论，他们发现学员在来学院之前没有完成背景调查，而且已经出现了学员带着不合格的犯罪记录报到的情况，大家担心我们无法充分审查后续学员的背景，以确定他们是否能顺利完成培训。
And while I was there, the very first thing I heard was a conversation about background checks on cadets and how they weren't being completed before they came to the Academy and that we already had had problems with cadets showing up that had disqualifying criminal offenses and the concerns that we were going to have cadets coming through that we couldn't we couldn't background check sufficiently to know whether or not they were going to be able to finish the program.
对吧？
Right?
我们被允许携带枪支。
We allowed to carry a firearm.
你让一个每年招聘约1000人的机构，在三个月内处理10000人。
You took an agency that hires maybe 1,000 people a year and told it to process 10,000 people in three months.
根本就没有足够的资源提前完成所有背景调查。
There simply weren't the resources to run all the background checks ahead of time.
它们只是被推迟了。
They were just delayed.
它们积压了。
They were backlogged.
有人员抵达学院时，背景调查尚未完成。
They had people showing up to the academy who had not completed background checks.
当我第一次听到关于背景调查的这件事时，我的第一反应是：哇，这就像成长中的阵痛，对吧？
And my first response to hearing this thing about the background checks was, wow, that's a growth, like a teething pain, right?
这确实是个问题。
Like this is a problem.
但他们会很快解决这个问题。
This is something they're going to solve very quickly.
对吧？
Right?
这是一个错误，因为我们才刚刚开始。
This was this was a mistake because we just started.
我们才刚刚启动这个大流程。
We just started this big process.
这明显是一个行政失误，他们会解决的。
This was clearly an administrative error and they're going to fix it.
后来我们发现，这个问题在警校反复发生。
As we later found out, it was an issue that occurred repeatedly at the academy.
而且第一天还出现了另一个问题。
And there was another issue that came up on that first day.
我们当时在一个很大的会议室里，我和我的主管都在里面。
We were in, like, this big conference room, and my supervisor and I are in there.
我想房间里还有其他几个人。
I think there are a couple other people in the room.
我无法说出具体是谁。
I couldn't name who exactly.
但她给我看了备忘录。
But she shows me the memos.
我的主管给我看了这些备忘录，他们告诉我你可以阅读，但不允许保留副本，也不允许做笔记。
My supervisor shows me these memos, and it's I'm told you you can read it, but you're not allowed to keep copy of it and you're not allowed to take notes on it.
你对此有什么看法？
What did you make of that?
在我整个职业生涯中，我从未收到过这样的指令。
I had never received an order like that ever in my career at any time.
这让我觉得非常奇怪，而且是个明显的警告信号。
It was bizarre to me, and it was a massive red flag.
她只对我一个人说过这样的话。
That's the only she said that to me.
在我读备忘录之前，对我来说，这已经是个明显的警告信号了，甚至在我看到第一页上的第一个字之前。
Before I even read the memo, to me, was a massive red flag before I read the first word on the page.
然后他读了那份备忘录。
Then he read the memo.
这份备忘录由ICE代理主任托德·莱恩斯签发，指示ICE特工可以在没有司法令状的情况下进入他人家中。
It was issued by Todd Lyons, the acting director for ICE, that instructed ICE officers that they could enter into a person's home without a judicial warrant.
换句话说，ICE特工不需要获得法官的许可就能进入他人家中，只需使用一份名为I-205的表格获得ICE的批准即可。
In other words, instead of ICE agents getting permission from a judge to go into someone's home, they would only need to get approval from ICE using a form called I-two zero five.
你知道吗，这挺讽刺的。
You know, it's funny.
我第一次读到它时，措辞看起来如此无害，以至于我最初觉得这没什么问题。
When I first read it, it was so innocuous sounding that at first I didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
我通读了一遍，心想，哦，好吧。
I read through it and was like, oh, okay.
所以我们打算用I-205表格进入民宅。
So we're gonna use I-two 05 to go into houses.
明白了。
Okay.
然后就像看到卡通人物一样，他们的脚突然停下，试图刹车，却滑行了一段。
And then it was kind of like when you see like a cartoon character, like their feet stop and they try to break and they kind of like skid.
对。
Right.
我的大脑当时就是这样的反应。
That's kind of what my brain did.
当我读到这个时，我心想：等等。
As I read this, I was like, wait a second.
然后我重新仔细读了一遍。
And then I read it through again, care more carefully the second time.
然后我心想：哇哦。
And I was like, woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
哇哦。
Woah.
天哪。
Heck.
美国宪法第四修正案规定，进入他人家中需要搜查令。
The Fourth Amendment of the US constitution says a warrant is needed to enter someone's home.
法院一致认为，这一规定适用于所有身在美国境内的人，而不仅仅是公民。
And courts have consistently said that this applies to everyone who is physically in the country, not just citizens.
所以瑞安看到了这项新政策，他心想，
So Ryan saw this new policy, and he thought,
哦，不。
oh, no.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
当时我绝对算不上对第四修正案有什么深入了解。
I was by no means at the time an expert on the Fourth Amendment.
对。
Right.
当然，作为律师，我知道第四修正案，但并不意味着我是专门研究宪法、专门挑刺的学者。
Obviously, I know the Fourth Amendment because I'm an attorney, but it's not like I'm a constitutional scholar on the thing looking for, like, things to nitpick.
对。
Right.
我是个律师，对第四修正案的了解就跟大多数律师一样——学过、大致知道、一般性地应用。
I'm a lawyer who knows the Fourth Amendment the way most lawyers know the Fourth Amendment as a thing that you learned about and apply in generalities.
即使只到这个层面，看了这个政策后，我也觉得这完全不对。
And even at that level, looking at this, I was like, this this is wrong.
我的导师、我的上司也明确说：如果你对教这个内容感到不安，就直接告诉我们。
And my instructor, my supervisor was clear, like, if you're not comfortable teaching this, just tell us.
瑞安说，他的老板还顺便提过，之前在这里工作的人也曾对此表达过担忧，甚至因为这些担忧强烈到选择辞职。
Ryan says his boss also casually brought up that the person who worked here before him had expressed concerns about it, said they felt strongly enough about these concerns to resign.
现在他们不再在这里工作了。
And now they don't work here anymore.
就像说：你这工作真不错啊。
Like saying, nice job you got there.
要是出了什么事可就可惜了。
Would be a shame if something happened to it.
我不认为他们无意中告诉我这个故事。
I don't think I was told the story by accident.
对。
Right.
在我看到备忘录之前，他们就已经把这一切都告诉了我。
I was told all this before I was shown the memo.
因此，我非常清楚，他们先告诉我这些，再给我看备忘录，就是为了让我明白。
So it was very clear to me that I was being told all of this and then shown the memo so that I understood.
我要么教这个，要么丢掉工作。
I either teach this or I lose my job.
你就要出门回家了，而不是回印第安纳波利斯工作。
You're going out the door and you're going home and not home to to work back in Indianapolis.
你回家了。
You're you're going home is in.
你结束了。
You're done.
你和这个机构没关系了。
You're done with the agency.
莱恩嘟囔着说需要考虑一下。
Ryan mumbled something about having to think it over.
你知道吗，我有点退缩了，把回答说得模棱两可。
You know, I kind of like backpedaled a little bit and kind of like kept my answer vague.
奇怪的是，我的主管问我：要不要一起去吃午饭？
Weirdly enough, like my supervisor was like, do you want to go get lunch?
然后我们再回来。
And then we come back.
然后我找了个借口回家，给妻子打了电话，说：亲爱的，我觉得我好像掉进了一个陷阱里。
And then I was like, I excused myself when I went home and I called my wife and I was like, honey, I I think I've kind of walked into a bear trap here.
而在这个陷阱里，还有另一个陷阱。
And within this bear trap, another bear trap.
瑞安还被告知过：当你教授这个内容时，不要写下任何东西。
Ryan had also been told, when you teach this, don't write anything down.
口头传达信息即可，不要留下书面记录。
Deliver the information verbally, no paper trail.
所以他查阅了现有的课程材料，看看其中关于使用搜查令进入民宅是怎么说的。
So he checked the existing curriculum to see what it said about using warrants to enter people's homes.
请记住，这些课程是有书面培训材料的。
And just remember, there are written training materials for the classes.
在培训材料中写着，I-205行政令不是搜查令。
And in the training materials, it says an I two zero five admin warrant is not a search warrant.
你不能用它来进入受保护或私人的区域。
You may not use it to enter into a protected or private area.
所以培训材料中的内容与政策规定完全相反。
So the training documents say the exact opposite of what the policy says.
我被告知我们不会改变这一点，不能写下来，我们实际上是以不同方式培训他们的。
And I was told that we were not going to change that, that we were not to put it in writing, that we trained them differently.
我一直觉得，我可能需要报告这件事。
And the whole time I was going, I probably need to report this.
我可能需要向某人报告这件事。
I probably need to report this to somebody.
所以在头几天里，我一直在拖延时间。
So for the first couple of days, I'm like buying times.
我想弄清楚自己该怎么做。
I try to figure out what I want to do.
我只是躲在幕后，尽量不引起注意。
Like I'm just kind of staying in the background trying to stand on the radar.
我开始研究我们内部报告问题的渠道。
I started looking into our internal avenues for reporting things.
我发现，他们要么都被侵害了，要么都被销毁了。
And what I found was that they had all either been compromised or destroyed.
比如，他们都已经被解雇或调岗了。
Like they had all been fired or reassigned.
民权和民权自由实际上已经不复存在了。
Civil rights, civil liberties was essentially gone.
所谓的监察员办公室也基本上消失了。
What's called the office of the ombudsman was essentially gone.
唯一剩下的只有ICE的监察长办公室。
The only thing that was left was the Office of the Inspector General for ICE.
嗯。
Mhmm.
监察长办公室，也就是OIG。
The Office of the Inspector General, OIG.
我在网上看到的传言是，如果你向OIG举报，有很大可能OIG会把你泄露给你的直属管理层。
And the rumors I saw online were that if you reported to OIG, there's a good chance that OIG would out you to your own management.
所以基本上你已经没人可以报告了。
So you have nobody left to report it to, basically.
我还有一个可以报告的渠道，那就是国会。
I had one group I could report it to, and that was Congress.
我记得这件事。
So I remember this.
我坐在酒店房间的椅子上，望着窗外街对面的加油站。
I was sitting in the hotel room I was in in a chair looking out the window at the gas station across the street.
我当时想，我没有选择。
And I was like, I don't have a choice.
我必须这么做。
I have to do this.
如果我不报告这件事，就没人会报告，等多年后真相大白时，已经有人因此受到伤害了。
If I don't report this, nobody is going to report this and it's going to come out years later when people have been hurt because of it.
对。
Right.
我必须报告这件事。
I have to report this.
于是我开始了这个流程。
And so I went through.
去年九月，众议院监督委员会有一个举报人申诉的程序。
There was a process for filing a whistleblower claim with the oversight committee at the house back in September.
我提交了最初的报告。
I made my initial report.
我只是简要地描述了正在发生的事情。
I just described in very brief detail what was happening.
几天后，他们联系我安排了一次通话，我开始向他们讲述一些情况。
And then a couple of days later, they reached out to me to set up a call, and I started to tell them a little bit about what was happening.
但我告诉他们：听好了，我可以告诉你们我看到了什么，但我无法提供证据。
But I told them, like, look, I can tell you what I saw, but I can't show you proof of it.
天哪。
Oh, man.
我没有那份备忘录。
I don't have the memo.
所以显然，众议院必须审核莱恩的报告，这可能需要数周甚至数月的时间。
So clearly, the house would have to vet Ryan's report, which can take weeks or months.
而且所有这些都必须在莱恩不被任何人知道是ICE内部举报人的情况下完成。
And all that had to happen without Ryan getting outed to anybody at ICE.
那为什么你当时还决定继续留下呢？
Like, why why were you deciding to still stay at that point?
如果不是我，那会是谁？
If not me, then who?
如果我离开了，也不会改变他们的所作所为。
If I left, it would not change what they do.
也不会改变事情的处理方式。
It would not change how things were done.
对吧？
Right?
我和自己、我和我妻子，还有其他人谈过这件事。
I had this conversation with myself and with my wife and with others.
如果我走了，谁来接替我呢？
If I left, who was going to replace me?
而答案将是某个对事情应有的样子毫无概念的人。
And the answer was going to be someone who had no frame of reference or the way things should look.
接下来，当瑞安留在岗位上时，他目睹了新兵训练中各种令他非常担忧的事情。作为一个希望看到合格的移民与海关执法局特工走上街头的人，请继续关注。
Coming up, while Ryan stays at his job, he witnesses all kinds of other things in the cadet training that he finds very, very worrisome As somebody who wants capable ICE agents out on the street, stay with us.
这是美国人生。
This is American life.
纳迪亚·雷蒙德关于移民与海关执法局举报人瑞安·施万克的故事继续。
Nadia Raymond's story about ICE whistleblower Ryan Schwank continues.
于是瑞安留在了佐治亚州格伦科的移民与海关执法局学院任教。
So Ryan stays and teaches at Glencoe, Georgia at the ICE Academy there.
那是一个位于海滨的培训基地。
It's at a training campus by the beach.
那里有一个垫子室， literally 一个满是垫子的房间，用来练习制服他人。
It has things like a mat room, literally a room full of mats to practice tackling someone down.
还有一个仿制小镇，像电影布景一样，用于练习逮捕、教室、食堂和射击场。
It has a fake town, like a movie set to practice arrests, classrooms, a cafeteria, shooting ranges.
瑞安说，身处海滨、毗邻度假小镇，却整天听到枪声，这让他感到很奇怪。
Ryan says it was strange to be right by the ocean next to towns that are vacation destinations and still hear gunshots all day long.
瑞安在移民官员们刚刚在洛杉矶展开大规模行动后开始任教，但早于芝加哥和明尼阿波利斯的大规模行动之前。
Ryan started teaching after immigration agents had spent the summer blanketing Los Angeles, but before the big surges in Chicago and Minneapolis.
他说，他的团队被告知，将有大约3000名没有执法经验的学员来到佐治亚州的这个营地，而他的任务是帮助他们成长为新的移民与海关执法局特工。
He says his team was told that about 3,000 cadets who had no prior law enforcement experience were coming to the campus in Georgia, And his job was to help turn them into new ICE agents.
国土安全部希望他们在圣诞节前毕业。
DHS wanted them to graduate by Christmas.
因此，瑞安正在查看课程内容，试图弄清楚如何快速地教授这些学员。
So Ryan is looking at the curriculum, and he's trying to figure out how to teach these cadets and teach them fast.
包括武力使用规范、基本移民法、以及当有人逃跑时该如何应对。
Rules around the use of force, basic immigration law, how to react when someone's running away.
所有这些内容都必须深深烙印在这些学员心中，让他们在实地执行任务时根本不需要思考。
All this stuff has to be so ingrained in these cadets that they don't even think about it when they're out in the field.
他们只是本能地做出正确的举动。
They just do the right thing instinctively.
选择正确的工具。
Reach for the right tool.
应用正确的规则。
Apply the right rule.
我该使用口头命令吗？
Do I use verbal commands?
我该使用手铐吗？
Do I use handcuffs?
我该使用物理约束吗？
Do I use physical restraints?
我该使用辣椒喷雾吗？
Do I use pepper spray?
我用泰瑟枪吗？
Do I use a taser?
我用警棍吗？
Do I use a baton?
我用枪吗？
Do I use a gun?
你是在教他们这些内容时，结合了‘你们依法可以做什么’这个背景吗？
Were you teaching all of that in the context of here's what you're legally allowed to do?
也就是说，那是你培训的一部分吗？
Like, that was your part of the training?
那是我应该教的内容，但被从课程中删掉了。
That was something I was supposed to teach, but they cut it from the curriculum.
对吧？
Right?
有一门课是由律师讲授的，重点讲解武力使用的法律依据。
There was a class that the lawyers would teach that focused on the law behind use of force.
对吧？
Right?
而且这属于我们教授的更广泛课程的一部分，内容涉及警察的宪法权限及其限制。
And it was part of the broader scope of classes we would teach about the officer's constitutional authority and the limitations of their authority.
哇。
Wow.
你是什么时候意识到这部分被删掉了？
When did you realize that that was cut?
当我看到课程大纲的时候。
When I saw the curriculum.
瑞安在将新课程与旧课程进行对比时发现，许多内容，比如全面的枪械考核，都被删减了，而其他内容又被压缩得如此厉害，他难以相信这些内容不仅难以理解，更难以吸收。
Ryan realized when he was comparing the new curriculum to the old one that a lot of stuff, like a comprehensive firearms exam, had been cut, while other stuff had been so compressed, he found it hard to believe it would be understandable, let alone absorbable.
比如，原本各为两小时的宪法课程和关于权限使用限制的课程。
Like, for example, a class about the constitution that used to be two hours and a class on the limits to use of authority that also used to be two hours.
他说，现在这些内容被压缩进了一节简短的讲座中，同时还涵盖了移民和公民自由等其他主题。
He says they were now squeezed into one short lecture that also covered other topics like immigration and civil liberties.
这只是课程被压缩的其中一个例子。
And that's just one example of the ways the curriculum had been compressed.
总教学时长减少了40%。
Total teaching hours had been cut by 40%.
你有没有见过树从内部开始枯死？
So have you ever seen a tree die from the inside?
它们是从内向外腐烂的。
They rot from the inside outwards.
没有。
No.
也许你以后会看到这种情况。
So maybe you'll see this sometime.
如果你去树林里，会看到一棵外表看起来完全结实的树。
If you're going to the woods, you'll see a tree that looks completely solid on the outside.
树皮完好无损。
The bark is intact.
外壳完好无损。
The shell is intact.
但如果你一推，它就会直接断裂，你往里一看，整个核心都已经消失了。
But if you push it, it will just snap and you look inside and the whole core is gone.
对吧？
Right?
里面已经被掏空了。
It's just hollowed out on the inside.
培训学院的情况就是这样。
That's kind of how the training academy was.
与此同时，瑞安还得想办法处理这份备忘录。
Meanwhile, Ryan still has to figure out how to deal with this memo.
他要教这个内容吗？
Does he teach it?
所以，当你训练新警员时，有没有告诉他们可以无搜查令就闯入民宅，还是你找到了其他办法
So did you tell cadets when you were training them that they should go into houses without a warrant, or did you find a way
不。
No.
我会告诉学员，如果能避开这个话题，我根本不想提这个政策。
What I would tell cadets, I would tell kids this policy is out the first and foremost if if I could avoid the subject, would.
但在课程中如果不得不提到，我会这样讨论。
But in the classes where it would come up, I would discuss them like this.
我会告诉学员，这个政策是存在的。
I would tell cadets this policy is out there.
这个政策是该机构的立场。
This policy is the agency's position on it.
它尚未在法庭上得到检验。
It is not been tested in the courts.
没有任何规定说你可以这么做，但机构的立场是你有权这么做。
There is nothing that says you can do this, but it's the agency's position that you can.
如果你打算实施这项政策，你必须首先咨询当地管理层，因为这就是他们要求我们说的。
If you're going to go out and use this, you need to check with your local management first and foremost because that's what they told us to say.
好的。
Okay.
我会告诉他们，如果你有问题，先去联系你当地的OPLA办公室。
And I would tell them, if you have questions, I would say, talk to your local OPLA office first.
OPLA是首席法律顾问办公室的缩写，也就是你们当地随时待命的ICE律师。
OPLA, office of the principal legal adviser, aka your local on call ICE attorneys.
因为我知道我的OPLA同事们大多会告诉他们，这完全是迷信，是绝对违法的。
Because I know my colleagues in OPLA by and large are going to tell them that this is hoodoo, that it's it's absolutely unlawful.
我对我的同事们能这样说很有信心。
And I have confidence in my colleagues to say that.
瑞安的工作经常涉及在角色扮演练习中误导学员。
Often Ryan's job involved absurding cadets during role playing exercises.
在模拟城市——校园的一部分，学员们会得到一些模糊的指示，比如：目标就在那家便利店里面。
In the movie set, Fake City Part of the Campus, cadets would be given loose instructions like Target is inside that bodega.
去抓他们。
Go get them.
教员有时也会参与，但大多数时候只是旁观并做点评。
And instructors would participate sometimes, but mostly just watch and give notes.
有时场景会偏离预定剧本。
Sometimes scenarios would go like off script.
是的。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
有时角色扮演者会改变设定。
Sometimes role players would change things.
所以你有时会看到原本不涉及枪支的场景，比如，突然变成一个涉及枪支的场景。
So you would sometimes see scenarios that don't normally involve firearms for instance, right, turn into a firearm scenario.
当这种情况发生时，你会看到学员做出一些危及自己和他人的行为，比如在不恰当的时候拔出枪支，或将枪口对准不该对准的人，逮捕那些并未犯罪的人员。
And you would see when this would happen, you would see the cadets do things that would jeopardize themselves and others, like pulling firearms at times that are inappropriate or pointing firearms at people they shouldn't be pointing them at, making arrests of individuals that had not committed a crime.
这向瑞安揭示了学员身上存在的一些不良习惯或本能，需要加以纠正。
This pointed out to Ryan bad habits or instincts that they needed to teach out of the cadets.
但时间太少了，学员们开始告诉他，他们即将被派往明尼阿波利斯，那里已经发生事件并上了所有新闻。
But there was so little time, and cadets started telling him they were gonna be sent to Minneapolis, which was already underway and all over the news.
他在培训期间一直想着这件事。
He kept thinking about that during the trainings.
有一个场景是他们在一家商铺外进行逮捕。
There's this scenario where they're making an arrest outside of business.
明白吗？
Okay?
而那些人并没有反抗或类似的行为。
And the individuals not combative or anything like that.
警察在商铺外对他们实施逮捕。
The officers are placing them under arrest outside of business.
在这个特定场景中，我们有足够的角色扮演者，其中一些人扮演旁观者，对吧？
And in this particular scenario, we had enough role players that we had a few acting as observers, right?
还有几个人扮演公众人士，完全模仿明尼阿波利斯的情况，拿出手机拍摄并大喊：‘你们在干什么？’
A few acting is like people from the public doing exactly as in Minneapolis, which is coming up with their cell phone and filming with their cell phone and yelling, hey, what are you doing?
你知道的，告诉那些警察他们是法西斯之类的。
You know, telling the officers that they're fascists or whatever.
对吧？
Right?
就像他们在明尼阿波利斯说的那样。
Just like they say in Minneapolis.
这名学员当时在所谓的外围警戒。
And this one cadet was on what they call perimeter.
这名扮演抗议者的角色人员，我觉得靠得太近了，接近了警员的舒适区。
This one role player protester got, I guess, too close to the officer's comfort zone.
我觉得还没那么近。
I didn't think it was close enough.
我觉得也没人觉得真的那么近，但他们觉得已经够近了，于是命令他后退，紧接着——我没觉得他们给了对方反应的时间，刚下命令就掏出胡椒喷雾，这名学员模拟使用胡椒喷雾喷了那个扮演者。
Don't think any of searchers thought it was close enough, but they thought it was close enough that they told him to back up and then immediately, I mean, I don't think that they gave them time to respond, like to react to the command to back up, pulled out their pepper spray and this cadet simulated using the pepper spray to pepper spray this role player.
对。
Right.
而且这是明确的。
And it was categorically.
我的意思是，我不认为那里的任何一位教官觉得这是恰当的使用方式，对吧？
I mean, I don't think a single instructor there thought that it was an appropriate use, right?
这根本不合适。
Like it was not appropriate.
这种情况并不符合正当性要求。
It was not justified by the circumstances.
当我们事后询问这名学员发生了什么时，他们的解释是，这是他们在明尼阿波利斯看到的情况，他们只是照搬那里的做法。
And when we asked the cadet afterwards what happened, their explanation was that this is what they were seeing in Minneapolis, that they were doing it just like they would up there.
对瑞安来说，他在新闻上看到的是经验丰富的警官频繁过度使用武力，这让他对他自己参与的短期培训中所见的情况更加担忧。
For Ryan, what he was seeing on the news, which was experienced officers being too aggressive too often, that made him more alarmed about what he was seeing during his own shortened trainings.
而他在培训中所看到的情况，又让他对新闻上看到的内容更加担忧。
And what he was seeing during trainings was making him more alarmed about what he was seeing on the news.
他担心自己的学员还没有做好准备。
He worried his cadets weren't ready.
一些学员也感到担忧。
Some cadets worried too.
他们看起来害怕吗？
Did they seem scared?
比如，有没有人来找你，说我们觉得不够准备充分？
Like, did any of them come to you and and say, like, we don't feel prepared enough?
我们觉得没准备好？
We don't feel ready?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
有学员向我们说过这样的话。
I had cadets say that to us.
我多次听到学员表示他们觉得自己对这份工作准备不足。
I had cadets on multiple occasions say they felt unprepared for the job.
我记得有一个学员跟我们聊过。
I remember one cadet was talking to us about.
当时我们正处理关于进入庭院的问题，这名学员在理解如何应用这套规则时遇到了很大困难。
Like we were dealing with kind of the issue of like entry into a yard and the cadet was having a lot of difficulty understanding how to apply that set of rules.
我们反复给他讲解了几遍，他提到，由于学院节奏太快，学员们从一件事被赶着赶去下一件事，所以所有东西都左耳进右耳出。
We kind of walked him through it a couple of times and and he was talking about how like everything the academy kind of goes in one ear and out the other because they're rushed from one thing to the next to try to meet that schedule.
当然，快速培训依然可以很严格，只要你通过测试确保他们掌握了内容。
Of course, fast training can still be rigorous training as long as you test people to make sure they got it.
瑞安说，在这种新的压缩式培训中，一些关键的实际技能没有得到充分考核，比如正确使用枪支或在野外制服他人。
And Ryan says that in this new compressed training, crucial real world skills were not adequately tested, like using a gun correctly or subduing somebody in the field.
在旧的学院体系下，也就是在人员激增之前，这些实践练习都是有评分的。
Under the old academy structure, what existed before the surge, these practical exercises were graded.
对吧？
Right?
学生必须通过这些练习才能毕业。
The students had to pass these exercises to graduate.
如果他们没有通过这项练习，如果他们表现出对法律或相关战术缺乏了解，就必须重修这门课。
If they didn't pass the exercise, if they demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the law or the tactics involved, they had to repeat the class.
如果他们失败两次，就会被开除。
And if they failed twice, they were out.
他们无法毕业。
They did not get to graduate.
这意味着他们不会成为ICE官员。
Meaning they wouldn't become an ICE officer.
但现在情况不同了。
But now things were different.
所以现在，无论我们在这些场景中看到学员们做什么，他们都能毕业。
So now no matter what we saw the cadets do in these scenarios, they still graduated.
我们可以明确地告诉学员，他们这样下去在实地工作中会丧命、会被逮捕，或者触犯法律。
We could tell a cadet up and down that they were going to get themselves killed in the field or get arrested or violate the law with what they were doing.
我希望并相信许多学员听进去了，但即使他们没听进去，也无关紧要。
And I hope and I believe many cadets listened to that, but it didn't matter if they didn't.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
无论他们做什么，他们仍然能毕业。
They could still graduate no matter no matter what we saw them do.
我们联系了国土安全部，询问了所有这些情况。
We reached out to DHS to ask about all of this.
他们没有回应。
They didn't respond.
不过，他们在二月的一份声明中声称：'没有任何培训要求被取消。'
They did claim, though, in a statement in February that, quote, no training requirements have been removed.
该声明称，实际上，培训时间已从每天八小时增加到十二小时。
The statement says that, actually, the training has been beefed up from eight hours a day to twelve hours a day.
它还声称，这些课时数与新兵一直以来接受的课时数相同。
It also somehow claims that the hours are the same number of hours that recruits have always received.
国土安全部表示，他们正在以一种'结构化且全面'的方式教授第四和第五修正案。
DHS says they're teaching the Fourth and Fifth Amendments in a way that is, quote, structured and comprehensive.
他们称之为不可或缺的。
They called it integral.
当莱恩最初提交报告时，焦点是那份备忘录。
When Ryan first made his report, it was about the memo.
那是他主要关心的问题。
That was his main concern.
但经过五个多月的教学，他发现了培训中许多问题。
But now, over five months of teaching, he'd seen so many things wrong with the training.
他觉得这些问题需要单独写一份报告。
He felt like that needed its own report.
他还觉得需要有人出面，让这份报告更具公信力。
And he felt like somebody needed to be the face of that to make it as credible as possible.
今年一月，移民官员杀害了雷妮·古德，随后又杀害了亚历克斯·普雷蒂。
In January, immigration agents killed Renee Goode and then Alex Preti.
就在同一个月，莱恩开始与国会工作人员接触，计划公开现身并在国会作证。
That same month, Ryan started talking to congressional staffers about going public, testifying to Congress.
他打算花些时间安顿家人，然后从学院辞职。
He was gonna take some time to relocate his family, and then he'd resign from the academy.
他告诉了妻子、父母和岳父母他的计划，但并没有告诉所有兄弟姐妹或扩展家庭成员。
He told his wife, his parents, and his in laws about his plan, but not all his siblings or extended family.
部分原因是我不想让他们为某些事情操心。
Part of it was I don't wanna burden them with certain things.
是的。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
而且你还得记住，我当时在国土安全部工作。
And then also, you have to keep in mind, I was working for the Department of Homeland Security.
我是在美国最大的执法机构工作。
I was working for the largest law enforcement agency in The United States.
老实说，我不确定自己能否在电话上和家人交谈而不被监听。
I frankly wasn't confident that I could communicate with my family over the phone without conversations getting flagged.
真的吗？
Really?
我的意思是，我不希望听起来像 paranoid。
I mean and I I don't wanna sound paranoid.
我想表达的是，我觉得他们是在为我监控着这些通话。
I wanna sound like, oh, I think they're monitoring it for me.
我不确定。
I don't know.
但问题就在于，我真的不知道。
But that's the problem is I don't know.
这纯粹是一种预防措施，这么说吧。
It was just like it was precautionary, if you will.
我不愿意在不安全的线路上进行某些对话。
I just wasn't willing to have certain conversations over an open line.
瑞安在2月23日作证了，就在我录制这段话的不到两周前。
Ryan testified on February 23, not even two weeks ago as I'm recording this.
感谢布卢门撒尔参议员、加西亚众议员以及委员会各位成员。
Thank you, senator Blumenthal, representative Garcia, members of the committee.
我叫瑞安·施万克。
My name is Ryan Schwank.
我于2021年8月1日加入移民与海关执法局时，曾宣誓维护宪法。
I swore an oath to uphold the constitution when I joined ICE on 08/01/2021.
你看。
Look.
我认为没有人会轻易离开自己曾归属的社群。
I don't think anybody walks away from community they were a member of.
他们曾经所属的社会圈子，是吧？
The the social community they were a member of lightly, right?
六个月前，我会告诉你，我和一些共事的律师有着深厚的友谊，也有我可以一起喝杯啤酒的同事。
Like I would have told you six months ago that I had strong friendships with some of the attorneys I worked with that I had officers that I could go and have a beer with.
那些曾是我生活中重要部分的人，我完全预料到他们再也不会和我说话了。
People that were part of my life that I fully expect are never going to speak to me again.
哦，瑞安。
Oh, Ryan.
我没想到你觉得你失去了自己的社群。
I didn't realize that you felt like you lost like your community.
这是因为对未来的不确定性。
Well, it's that it's the combination of uncertainty going forward.
我真的不知道下一步该做什么。
Like I have no idea what I'm going to do next.
他们有孩子。
They have a child.
我有妻子。
I have a wife.
我有家庭。
I have a family.
我放弃了那份待遇优厚、稳定的工作，离开了我原本认为有意义的事业，进入了一个毫无职业保障的世界。
I walked away from a well paid secure career doing something that I thought was good into a world where I have no job security.
我对未来毫无头绪。
I have no no idea what the future holds.
我离开参议院议场时告诉了我妻子。
I told my wife when I walked off the Senate floor.
我脑海中不断回响的词是：从今往后。
The words that kept going through my head was and now for the rest of my life.
抱歉，我没料到这次谈话会让我情绪激动。
Sorry, I didn't think this conversation would make me emotional,
但没关系。
but It's it okay.
我能稍停一下吗？
I can just have a second.
当然，你慢慢来。
Of of course, take your time.
我们休息了一会儿。
We took a small break.
你好。
Hello.
你知道吗，我想在我们继续之前说点事。
You know, I want to say something real quick before we keep going.
过去四年半，这一直是我生活的全部，对吧？
Like for the last four and a half years, this has been my life, right?
但我是个移民的儿子。
But I'm the son of an immigrant.
我父亲是来自危地马拉的医生，他来到美国。
My father is a doctor from Guatemala who came to The U.
美。
S.
来行医。
To practice.
因为他从危地马拉来到这里行医，所以他过上了美好的生活。
And because he came here to practice from Guatemala, he had a fantastic life.
对吧？
Right?
他作为一名神经外科医生取得了非常成功的事业。
He had very successful career as a neurosurgeon.
我成长过程中有数百位移民朋友和家人。
I grew up with hundreds of immigrant friends and family members.
当我接受这份工作时，我放弃了以前的圈子。
When I took this job, I gave up the tribe I had before.
因为我决定去ICE工作，失去了很多朋友，这同样是一段艰难的转变。
I lost a lot of friends over my decision to go work for ICE and that was a hard transition too.
我知道有些人说我是因为我是潜伏在机构里的卧底，或者只是一个心怀不满的员工才这么做。
And I know that that's one of the things that has been said about me is, oh, he's he's doing this because he was like a plant in the agency or he was just a disgruntled employee.
我不是这样。
I'm not.
我清楚地知道自己选择了这条道路，尽管它给我带来了个人代价。
I chose the path I took with clear eyes despite the personal cost to me when I chose it.
对。
Right.
这正是我愿意付出的代价。
And that was a price I was willing to pay.
我愿意这么做，是因为我真心认为这是正确的事。
That was the thing I was willing to do because I genuinely viewed it as the right thing to do.
我的意思是，我怎么强调这一点都不为过。
I mean, I I cannot emphasize this enough.
根据我在那所学院所见，未来将出现对全国每个人清晰而直接的威胁。
What's coming down the road from what I saw at that academy is a clear and direct threat to everyone in this country.
这些学员都有意成为优秀的执法人员，但他们正被置于失败的境地。
Those cadets have every intention of being good law enforcement officers, but they are being set up to fail.
他们正被推向成为对我们其他人的威胁。
They are being set up to be a danger to the rest of us.
我不得不反复强调，不仅使用武力和枪械训练被削减，更危险的是，我们已经剥离了关于宪法的培训。
I cannot emphasize enough not only the loss of use of force training and the firearms training, but how critically dangerous it is that we have stripped away the training on the constitution.
法律是缓慢的。
The law is slow.
法院是用于事后纠正问题的工具。
The courts are a tool for correcting things down the road.
让你我安全的，是那些信奉‘化身正义’神话的警察。
The thing that keeps you safe, that keeps me safe is that those police officers buying into that myth of the avatar justice.
当然，我不是在说这是一群天真的童子军。
And look, I'm not saying this is some naive Boy Scout.
对吧？
Right?
我清楚地知道六七十年代我们的执法部门是如何运作的。
I know exactly how our law enforcement operated in the sixties and seventies.
我也清楚地知道它今天是如何运作的。
I know exactly how it operates today.
好吧。
Okay.
我说这些并不是因为我相信他们都是善良美好的人。
I'm not saying this because I believe that they're all great, wonderful people.
人类具有各种各样的性格特征和缺陷。
Are human beings with the whole range of character traits and flaws that human beings have.
但这种他们正在维护某种标准的想法，其力量远超我们的想象，因为它正是促使他们守法的原因。
But that idea that they are holding up a standard is so much more powerful than we realize because it's the thing that convinces them to be lawful.
那种在他们脑海中回响的吉米尼·克里克般的声音，告诉他们：嘿，这可不是美国警察该做的事。
That that jiminy cricket voice in the back of their heads that says, hey, this isn't what an American police officer does.
正是在那一刻，这种声音存在于他们的脑海中，引导着他们的行为。
It's the thing that is in their head at that moment that they act.
在很多方面，瑞安是不寻常的。
In lots of ways, Ryan's unusual.
但在一个重要的方面，他并不特殊。
But in one important way, he's not.
他对于移民与海关执法局的担忧，与其他政府内部人士所表达的担忧如出一辙。
He sounds just as alarmed about ICE as other people inside the government have talked to.
国土安全部今年计划在学院培训约3000名新的移民与海关执法局官员。
The Department of Homeland Security plans to train about 3,000 new ICE officers at the academy this year.
纳迪亚·雷蒙德是我们节目的制片人。
Nadia Raymond is the producer on our show.
你的故事由拉尔斯·多尔切斯基编辑。
Your story was edited by Lars Dorcheski.
接下来，一位法官下达了法院命令，要求政府释放一批被拘留者。
Coming up, a judge issued some court orders, tells the government to release a bunch of people from detention.
但政府并没有执行。
The government doesn't do it.
法官把他叫去问为什么没有执行，而律师的回答出乎他和任何人的意料。
The judge calls him in to ask why not, and what the lawyer says was not what he or anybody expected.
稍后为您呈现。
That's in a minute.
芝加哥公共广播电台，我们的节目继续。
Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.
这是艾拉·格拉斯的《美国生活》。
Tis American Life from Ira Glass.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们今天节目的名字取自吉米尼·蟋蟀在《木偶奇遇记》中唱的那首歌——轻轻吹个口哨。
So we've named our program today after the song that Jiminy Cricket sings to Pinocchio, give a little whistle.
你知道那首歌吗？
You know that one?
当你陷入麻烦、分不清对错时，就轻轻吹个口哨。
When you get in trouble and you don't know right from wrong, give a little whistle.
今天我们有两个故事，都是来自政府内部的律师，他们罕见而真实地讲述了移民与海关执法局（ICE）内部正在发生的事，揭示了其中混乱不堪的细节。
We have two stories today where lawyers from inside the government give us rare and factual accounts of what is really happening inside ICE with fascinating details of a broken, chaotic kind of mess.
我们已经进入本节目的第二幕。
We have arrived at act two of our program.
第二幕：别相信这个流程。
Act two, don't trust the process.
接下来这个关于ICE内部的片段，来自上个月一场法庭听证会的记录。
So this next glimpse inside the world of ICE comes from a transcript of a court hearing that happened last month.
在这段录音中，这位政府律师被事实逐渐击垮，到最后，她坦率地谈到了自己目前工作的感受。
In it, this government attorney got increasingly kind of beaten down by the facts and, by the end, really opened up about what it's like to do her job right now.
你平时听不到政府律师在法庭上像她在这次听证会上这样说话。
You do not hear government lawyers talking in court the way she did in this hearing.
她非常坦诚，毫无保留，充满个人情感。
She's very candid, very unguarded, very personal.
这次听证会最初的原因本身就很引人注目。
The reason for the hearing in the first place, was kind of notable.
基本上，移民案件中的人身保护令请愿书数量激增。
Basically, there's been an explosion of what are called habeas petitions in immigration cases.
人身保护令就是向政府提出要求，说明为什么这个人被拘留。
A habeas petition is sending to the government, show why this person is being detained.
否则，你就必须放人。
Otherwise, you have to let them go.
这是一种自中世纪以来就存在的基本法律原则，旨在防止人们在没有任何理由的情况下被关押。
This is a bedrock legal principle that's been around since the Middle Ages to keep people from being locked up without any reason.
这在《美国宪法》第一条就有规定。
It's in the first article of the US constitution.
ProPublica 一直在追踪移民案件中的相关数据。
ProPublica has been tracking the numbers in immigration cases.
在特朗普总统重返执政之前，每周大约有二三十份移民人身保护令申请被提交。
Before president Trump came back into office, there were, like, 20 or 30 immigration habeas petitions being filed every week.
到了二月，每周的申请数量超过两千份，这完全压垮了联邦法院。
In February, it was over 2,000 every week, which has completely overwhelmed the federal courts.
因此，本案的法官一次性审理了大量这类人身保护令案件。
So the judge in this case had rolled in a bunch of these habeas cases.
这些人被非法拘留了。
These people have been illegally detained.
你们必须立即释放他们。
You've to release them immediately.
但随后并没有发生。
And then it didn't happen.
大卫·凯斯特恩鲍姆为您带来这个故事。
David Kestenbaum has our story.
这一切发生在明尼苏达州圣保罗联邦法院的一个周二下午一点整。
This all happened 01:00 on a Tuesday afternoon at a Federal Courtroom in Saint Paul, Minnesota.
那里只有寥寥数人。
There were just a handful of people there.
法官杰里·布莱克韦尔之所以召开听证会，是因为他想弄清楚政府律师们到底在搞什么名堂。
The judge, Judge Jerry Blackwell, ordered the hearing because he was trying to figure out what on earth was going on with the government's lawyers.
我们请了一位演员为您朗读这段庭审记录。
We got an actor to read the transcript here for you.
内容经过了轻微删减，仅为了更清晰和简洁。
It's been lightly edited, but just for clarity and length.
布莱克韦尔法官，下午好。
Judge Blackwell, good afternoon.
请坐。
You may be seated.
今天下午的听证会涉及的是对法院命令的遵守问题，而不是政策，仅仅是遵守。
The hearing this afternoon concerns compliance with court orders, not policy, just compliance.
没有别的。
Nothing else.
就在过去这一周，我遇到了太多不遵守的情况，因此我召开了这次听证会。
I've had so many issues with noncompliance in just this past week that I called for this hearing.
法官的问题集中在五个不同的移民案件上。
The judge's issue is with five different immigration cases.
法院已裁定，政府拘留的这些人必须被释放，因为政府没有理由继续羁押他们。
The court had ruled that the people the government had detained had to be released because the government had no reason to hold them.
但随后政府既没有释放这些人，也没有提供任何更新，这就是召开此次听证会的原因。
But then the government was not releasing them or even giving updates, hence this hearing.
你知道吗，在一些电视剧或电影里，总会有这么一个时刻，有人会发表一段这样的演讲？
And you know how in some TV shows or movies, there's this moment where someone will give this kind of speech?
这段话听起来不错，但你会觉得，现实中人们根本不会这么做。
And it's good, but you're like, people don't actually do that in real life.
有时候确实会这样。
Well, sometimes they do.
就像布莱克韦尔法官很清楚自己想说什么，结果全部说出来了。
It's like judge Blackwell knew exactly what he wanted to say, and it all came out.
我希望在座的每个人都同意并承认，法院命令不是建议性的，也不是附条件的。
As I hope everybody here agrees and acknowledges that a court order is not advisory, and it is not conditional.
它不是任何机构可以视为可选的事项。
It is not something that any agency can treat as optional.
法院所行使的权力源自《美国宪法》第三条。
The authority exercised by the court is derived from Article III of the Constitution.
只有当法院命令得到迅速、全面且真诚地遵守时，第三条所赋予的权力才有意义。
That authority under Article III only has meaning if the court orders are obeyed, adhered to promptly, fully, and in good faith.
整个司法体系在很大程度上依赖于行政部门自愿执行法院的裁决。
The whole judicial system kinda depends on the executive branch doing what the courts say, more or less voluntarily.
他并没有很好的办法强迫他们这样做。
He doesn't have a great way to force them to do it.
法官说，如果你不遵守法院的命令，你就相当于把法院逼到了死角。
The judge says, if you don't comply with the court's orders, you've essentially painted the court into a corner.
因为我们要怎么办呢？
Because what are we supposed to do?
没有合法授权的拘留不仅仅是一个技术性缺陷。
Detention without lawful authority is not just a technical defect.
这是一种宪法上的伤害，无辜的人因此无辜受累。
It is a constitutional injury that unfairly falls on the heads of those who have done nothing wrong to justify it.
截至目前，本法院所审查的数百人中，绝大多数都被认定为合法居留。
The overwhelming majority of the hundreds seen by this court have been found to be lawfully present as of now in the country.
他们生活在自己的社区中。
They live in their communities.
有些人与家人分离了。
Some are separated from their families.
当释放令未被遵守时，结果不仅仅是延迟。
When a release order is not followed, the result is not just a delay.
在某些情况下，被继续拘留的人是宪法不允许政府关押的，本应被放任不管，即根本不应被逮捕。
In some instances, it is the continued detention of a person the constitution does not permit the government to hold and who should have been left alone, that is, not arrested in the first place.
我无法确定这种情况持续了多久，因为我们只有庭审记录。
I can't tell how long, time wise, this goes on for because we just have the transcript.
但大概有五页纸那么长。
But it's like five pages.
他说，法院甚至难以获取这些人何时会被释放的信息。
He says the court has been having a hard time even getting information about when these people would be released.
在许多情况下，我不得不不仅发出一项命令，还要发出另一项命令、再一项命令、再一项命令。
In many instances, I have had to not just issue an order, but another order, another order, another order.
我向政府发出了大约七到八次不同的请求，只是想了解被下令释放者的释放日期、时间和地点。
About seven or eight different touches sent to the government simply asking for the date, time, and location of the release of someone who was ordered released.
在许多情况下，这已经是过去一周或更久以前的事了。
In many instances, a week or more in the past.
为什么这会如此困难？
And why is that so difficult?
我无法理解，因为显然有一位政府相关人员会去拘留所释放这名人士。
I cannot understand because there's obviously a person associated with the government who is going to the detainee to release him or her.
你知道他们的名字。
You have their name.
你可以随身携带一份表格。
You can carry with you a form.
上面有他们的名字。
The name is on it.
只要写下时间，然后寄给司法部即可。
Just write the time on it and send it to the DOJ.
布莱克韦尔法官对政府律师表示，以人手不足为由推脱无法处理这波大量人身保护令案件是站不住脚的，因为正是政府决定开展这些移民突袭行动，却显然没有为法院系统如何应对做好规划。
Judge Blackwell says to the government lawyers, it's no excuse to say that you don't have the staff to deal with this huge influx of habeas cases because it was the government that decided to do all these immigration raids with apparently no plan for how to deal with them in the court system.
因此，我会先说到这里，作为背景补充，并回应我从李女士和沃斯女士那里收到的回复。
So I'm going to stop there just by way of background and follow-up on the responses I received from miss Lee and from miss Voss.
李女士，如果你愿意的话，可以到讲台前来吗？
And if you want to come up to the podium, miss Lee?
李女士是ICE的律师朱莉·李。
Miss Lee is Julie Lee, an attorney for ICE.
女士。
Ms.
李女士，法官大人，我可以上前吗？
Lee, your honor, may I approach?
布莱克韦尔法官，您已经上来了。
Judge Blackwell, you have approached already.
她向法官提交了一些文件并开始发言。
She presents some documents to the judge and starts talking.
女士。
Ms.
李女士，为了提供一些背景信息，我被指派参与一项特别任务，协助美国检察官办公室处理他们收到的所有人身保护令申请。
Lee, just to have some background, I was put on this special mission to help with the US attorney office with all the habeas claims that they have received.
他们不堪重负，需要帮助。
They are overwhelmed, and they need help.
所以，说来惭愧，我自愿报名了。
So I I have to say stupidly enough to volunteer.
所以，在1月5日我刚加入机构时，我得说实话。
So in January 5, when I started with the agency, I have to be honest.
我们没有任何指导或方向来知道该做什么。
We have no guidance or direction on what we need to do.
所以当你出现时，他们直接把你扔进井里，然后就这样开始了。
And so when you showed up, they just throw you in the well, and then here we go.
她解释说，这一直有点混乱。
She explains that it's been kind of a mess.
比如，她现在有两个不同的政府邮箱，但只能访问其中一个。
Like, she has two different government email accounts now but could only access one.
一些法院的命令被发送到了她无法访问的另一个邮箱。
Some of the court's orders were going to the other email that she couldn't access.
她每天花好几个小时，根本不是在做本职工作，而是在努力弄清楚该怎么工作。
She's spending hours and hours just not even doing the job, just trying to figure out how to do the job.
布莱克韦尔法官，您是想告诉法庭，您是作为完全新人、像一枚崭新的便士一样被引入这个职位的，并且您没有得到任何关于您职责的适当指导或培训吗？
Judge Blackwell, so are you telling the court that you were brought in brand new, a shiny, brand new penny into this role, and you received no proper orientation or training on what you were supposed to do?
李女士，我必须对这个问题回答是的，法官大人。
Miss Lee, I have to say yes to that question, your honor.
布莱克韦尔法官，我想听听关于奥斯卡案，案号26167的情况。
Judge Blackwell, I'd like to hear about the Oscar case, Oscar two 6167.
奥斯卡案是
The Oscar case is the
庭审记录中讨论的主要案件。
main one discussed in the transcript.
该案的细节尤其令法官感到不安。
The details of it are particularly troubling to the judge.
奥斯卡于1月10日在明尼阿波利斯被逮捕，那里是他居住的地方。
Oscar was apprehended on January 10 in Minneapolis, where he lives.
五天后，即15日，法院下令立即释放他。
Five days later, on the fifteenth, the court ordered him to be immediately released.
但到那时，这非常常见，奥斯卡已经被从明尼苏达州空运到德克萨斯州的一个拘留设施。
But by then, this is very common, Oscar had been flown all the way from Minnesota to a detention facility in Texas.
法官在15日下令立即释放他时，要求在48小时内提交更新报告。
The judge, when ordering his immediate release on the fifteenth, required an update to be filed within forty eight hours.
-法官布莱克韦尔，17日并没有提交任何48小时的更新报告。
-Judge Blackwell, there was no forty eight hour update that was filed on the seventeenth.
这件事根本没发生。
That hadn't happened.
因此，法院表示，我希望在19日下午3点前收到一封说明信，解释为何你不应因违反法院命令而被认定为藐视法庭。
And so then the court is saying that that I wanted a letter no later than 3PM on the nineteenth showing cause why you shouldn't be held in contempt for violating the court's order.
然后在19日，我被告知，原告被安排于1月20日星期二从埃尔帕索乘机返回明尼苏达，并将在返程时获释。
Then on the nineteenth, I'm told the petitioner was scheduled for return to Minnesota on a flight from El Paso on Tuesday, January 20, and that he would be released upon his return.
这里的‘原告’指的就是奥斯卡。
Petitioner here just means Oscar.
那是在1月19日。
That was on the January 19.
然后我们得知，在本应完成释放的二十日，释放并未发生。
Then we learned that on the twentieth, when the release was supposed to have taken place, there was no release.
相反，我们被告知，移民与海关执法局的律师向奥斯卡的律师表示，奥斯卡目前正经由新墨西哥州阿尔伯克基中转，而非德克萨斯州埃尔帕索，并计划于周六，即二十四日抵达圣保罗。
Instead, we're told that counsel for ICE had represented to petitioner's counsel that the petitioner was currently on his route stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico, not El Paso, Texas, and is scheduled to arrive in Saint Paul on Saturday, the twenty fourth.
而此时，此人已被下令释放，并且最初被非法羁押的事实已得到确认，距离那时已过去九天了。
And this is already then nine days after this person has been ordered released and found to have been unlawfully detained in the first place.
所以九天后，他仍然被羁押，现在又被从埃尔帕索转运到新墨西哥州的阿尔伯克基。
So nine days later, he's still in custody, now being flown around from El Paso to Albuquerque, New Mexico.
此时，奥斯卡的律师——这位仍被关押的人的代理律师——提交了藐视法庭的动议。
At this point, a lawyer for Oscar, the man who is still somehow being held, filed a motion for contempt of court.
布莱克威尔法官，我随后命令沃斯女士提交书面答复。
Judge Blackwell, I ordered then miss Voss to file a written response.
沃斯女士是安娜·沃斯，代表联邦政府的高级律师。
Miss Voss is Anna Voss, a senior lawyer representing the federal government here.
她就在法庭上聆听着这一切。
She's in the courtroom listening to all of this.
我敢肯定，她有过不止一天后悔自己对我这么熟悉她的名字，因为大多数时候都得找Voss女士。
I'm sure she's had more than one day where she regrets how well I know her name since most things end in, you know, get a hold of miss Voss.
Voss女士在22日作出回应，解释了她何时得知这些事实的时间点。
Miss Voss responded on the twenty second explaining the timing of when she learned the facts.
让我在此稍作停顿，把另一个观点说得更清楚一些。
And let me pause there to make another point kind of clear enough.
我完全认同单一行政权的理念，即国土安全部、移民与海关执法局、司法部都属于行政部门的一部分。
I wholeheartedly embrace the notion of a unitary executive, as in DHS, ICE, the DOJ, all a part of the executive branch.
如果餐厅出了问题，我并不打算走进厨房去弄清楚谁在做面包。
And if there's a problem in the restaurant, I don't intend to go in the kitchen to try to figure out who makes the bread.
而所有这些都属于行政部门的一部分。
And all of it is part of the executive branch.
因此，以你联系了移民与海关执法局为由来推脱责任是站不住脚的，因为移民与海关执法局同样是单一行政体系中的一部分。
And so it is not an excuse to tell me you contacted ICE because ICE is also part of the unitary executive for accountability purposes.
在Voss女士。
After Ms.
沃斯女士的回应是，日子一天天过去，奥斯卡仍被拘留，而法官却未收到任何更新。
Voss' response, more days pass, with the man, Oscar, still in detention and the judge not getting updates.
显然，在来回提交的文件中，政府曾表示，延迟释放这名男子奥斯卡与安全顾虑有关。
Apparently, in some of the filings back and forth, the government had said that the delay in releasing this man, Oscar, had something to do with safety concerns.
法官问：这些安全顾虑是什么？
The judge had asked, what were the safety concerns?
问了三次。
Three times.
在法庭上，过了一段时间，他终于得到了答复。
In court, after a while, he finally got an answer.
李女士，我之所以这么问，是因为有人告诉我，如果我们提供所有信息，抗议者就会涌向机场，使特工和其他人陷入危险。
Miss Lee, the reason that I I did ask, and I was told if we provided all information, the protesters would show up at the airport, and the agent and other people will be endangered.
我认真对待了这一点，因为当时明尼苏达州的抗议活动非常激烈。
So I took it to heart because during that time, it was very heated here in Minnesota with all the protests that was going on.
任何公开活动都存在风险，就连我自己，也因在这里公开我的姓名和身份而面临风险，法官大人。
Any public thing that was going on is at risk, even myself, also at risk for putting my name and myself in here, your honor.
这就是我所担心的安全问题。
That's the safety concern that I have.
布莱克韦尔法官，您的回答是因为他们担心，如果把他送上飞机，他抵达这里后可能会引发某种公众反应吗？
Judge Blackwell, is your answer because they were concerned that if he were put on a plane, that if he arrived here, there may have been a public reaction of some kind?
李女士。
Miss Lee.
法官大人，他是与其他特工一起被护送的。
Your honor, he was escorted with other agents.
他并不是独自一人被送上飞机的。
He wasn't put on the plane by himself.
最初的计划是让特工护送他返回，但当时正值抗议活动高涨，我被建议谨慎对外公布信息，以保障他人的安全。
The original plan was to have agent escorted him back, and with the protests was going on during that time, I was advised to be careful of what information to put out in public for the safety of others.
布莱克韦尔法官。
Judge Blackwell.
当这些人被拘留后，被飞往埃尔帕索或新墨西哥州时，您知道他们有时在被拘留后数小时内，最迟第二天就会从明尼苏达州被转运吗？
And when the various persons are detained and then flown to El Paso or New Mexico, do you know that they are flown out of Minnesota sometimes within hours, if not the next day, of being detained?
李小姐。
Miss Lee.
是的。
Yes.
我知道他们确实在这样做。
I know that they are doing that.
布莱克韦尔法官。
Judge Blackwell.
您觉得在他们被拘留后，花上数小时或数天才将他们从明尼苏达州转运，有什么不妥吗？
And do you feel there's anything wrong with taking hours or days to fly them out of Minnesota when they've been miss Lee.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
布莱克韦尔法官。
Judge Blackwell.
等一下。
Just a minute.
让我把问题问完。
Let me finish my question.
把他们从明尼苏达州送走，然后在发现他们被非法拘留后，还要花十三天才能送回来？
To fly them out of Minnesota and then take thirteen days to return them when they've been found to have been unlawfully detained?
李女士，法官大人，我也问了同样的问题。
Miss Lee, your honor, I did ask the same question too.
我还没有得到答复。
I have not got the answer.
如果有人能回答这个问题，或者解释或为政府的行为辩护，似乎这个人并不在这间法庭上。
If there is a person who can answer that question or explain or defend the government's actions, it does not seem like they're in this courtroom.
布莱克韦尔法官和代表政府的朱莉·李，他们都承认这是一个问题。
Judge Blackwell and Julie Lee, who's supposed to be representing the government, they agree this is a problem.
法官说，从外部来看，这种情况看起来很糟糕。
The judge is saying, this looks bad from the outside.
朱莉·李说，内部看起来也很糟糕。
And Julie Lee is like, looks bad on the inside.
而在这里，整个事情有点失控了。
And here, the whole thing kind of goes off the rails a bit.
朱莉·李向法官坦白，她曾经一度提交了辞职信，但政府找不到接替的人选。
Julie Lee confesses to the judge that at one point, put in her resignation, but the government couldn't find a replacement.
她说她本来打算直接走人。
She said she was just gonna walk out.
但后来她又释放了另一个人，一个18岁的孩子。
But then she got another person released, a kid, someone 18.
李女士，
Ms.
这就像一步，一个障碍，等等，朱莉，停一下。
Lee, that kind of like a step, like a barrier, like, wait, Julie, stop.
你得回去，再救出更多人。
You need to go back and get more people out.
所以我还在这里，因为如果我离开，有时候我真希望您能以藐视法庭罪处罚我，法官大人，这样我就能好好睡上整整二十四小时。
That's why I'm still here Because if I walk out sometimes I wish you would just hold me in contempt, your honor, so that I can have a full twenty four hours of sleep.
我日夜工作，只因为还有人被困在里面。
I work days and night just because people still in there.
而且，是的，目前的程序确实很糟糕。
And, yes, procedure in place right now sucks.
我正努力改进它。
I'm trying to fix it.
正如您所见，我发给您的邮件已经有了很大改进，进步显著。
As you can see, the email that I sent to you, it has been improving, a great improvement.
昨晚，我不得不熬到凌晨两点三十五分，只为把这些文件准备好给您。
And last night, I had to stay up until 02:35AM just to get these documents ready for you.
我不能说这是浪费我的时间，但我本可以发送更多邮件，让更多的人都能获得释放。
I can't say it's a waste of my time, but I could have sent so many more emails and get so many more people ready to be released.
而我此刻就在这里，法官大人。
And I am here with you, your honor.
你希望我做什么？
What do you want me to do?
这系统太烂了。
The system sucks.
这份工作太糟了，但我正用尽全力，只为给你提供你需要的东西。
This job sucks, and I am trying every breath that I have so that I can get you what you need.
法官问李，她是否向ICE或司法部的其他人表达过这种挫败感。
The judge asks Lee if she is expressing this frustration to other people at ICE or DOJ.
是的，她说。
Yes, she says.
我用24号字体写邮件。
I write emails in 24 font.
加粗。
Bold.
我威胁说要把他们的名字写进法院文件里。
I threaten that I will put their names on the court documents.
布莱克韦尔法官告诉李，他不想威胁她或任何人。
Judge Blackwell tells Lee he doesn't wanna threaten her or anyone.
他只是希望这个问题得到解决。
He just wants this fixed.
布莱克韦尔法官，我们真正需要的只是合规，因为在这背后，有些人根本就不该被逮捕，却在被下令释放后，仍被关押在监狱或戴上手铐长达数日，甚至一周以上。
Judge Blackwell, what we really want is simply compliance because on the other side of this is somebody who should not have been arrested in some instances in the first place, who is being held in jail or put in shackles for days, if not a week plus, after they've been ordered released.
我的担忧在于维护法治以及所有相关方的宪法权利。
That's my concern, upholding the rule of law and the constitutional rights of all concerned.
我听到你们对司法部为此耗费大量精力的担忧，但恕我直言，其中一些问题正是由于你们未遵守命令而造成的。
I hear the concerns about all the energy that this is causing the DOJ to expend, but with respect, some of it is of your own making by not complying with orders.
你明白吗？
Do you understand that?
李女士，我明白。
Miss Lee, I do.
法官大人，我和您有同样的担忧。
And I share the same concern with you, your honor.
我不是白人，正如你们所见，我的家人也面临风险，就像其他可能被逮捕的人一样，所以我有同样的担忧。
I am not white, as you can see, and my family's at risk as any other people that might get picked up too, so I share the same concern.
我们的邮件根本停不下来。
Our email just never stops.
正如你们所见，我真希望能让这一切都逆转，因为没有人想被关进监狱。
And as you can see, I I would I would love to undo all of this stuff because no one wants to be in jail.
说实话，现在我每天要干这么多小时的工作，能在监狱里睡一天来补觉，其实也不算坏事。
And actually, honestly, you know, being in jail a day to get catch up with sleep is not bad right now with all the hours I have to put into this job.
布莱克韦尔法官，李女士，我感谢你们的坦诚。
Judge Blackwell, miss Lee, I appreciate your candor.
这基本上就是笔录的结尾。
That's basically where the transcript ends.
对此你们怎么看？
What to make of all this?
你可以说，这份文件反映了当下这个时代的混乱，以及法律程序是如何失效的。
You could say this is a document about the chaos of this moment and how the legal process is not working.
法官最终还是不得不召开这次听证会。
The judge had to call this hearing after all.
但他确实召开了，而且我们有完整的记录。
But he did call it, and we have the record of it.
在阅读时，我不断想到奥斯卡。
In reading it, I kept thinking about Oscar.
因为当这一切发生时，法官和朱莉·李反复讨论的那些日子，都是他生命中的日子，正如法官所说，他本就不该被羁押。
Because while all this was unfolding, all those days judge Blackwell and Julie Lee were talking about and going back and forth about, those were all days in his life, days when, as the judge says, he should not have been detained in the first place.
奥斯卡经历了什么？
What happened for Oscar?
听证会结束时，他的律师恳请法官查阅案卷编号67，那里实际上回答了所有这些问题。
At the end of the hearing, his attorney urges the judge to please read docket entry number 67, which actually answers all these questions.
值得听一听。
It's worth hearing.
所以，听好了。
So here.
我们已对这段内容进行了精简和清晰化处理。
We've edited this for length and clarity.
每个段落都已编号。
Each paragraph is numbered.
这正是文本的书写方式。
That's the way things are written.
O的声明。
Declaration of O.
我，O，声明以下内容在我所知和记忆的范围内真实准确。
I, O, declare the following is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
第一，我的名字是O。
One, my name is O.
我是一名来自危地马拉的20岁男性。
I am a 20 year old man from Guatemala.
我在明尼苏达州明尼阿波利斯生活了大约四年。
I have lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota for about four years.
我目前有未决的庇护申请和特殊移民青少年身份申请。
I have pending asylum and special immigration juvenile status applications.
二、我之所以使用首字母而非全名提交本声明，是因为我担心因反对联邦政府而遭到对我的家人或我本人的报复。
Two, I am filing this declaration under my first initial rather than my full name due to fear of retaliation against my family or me for opposing the federal government.
我的全名原告律师是知道的。
My full name is known to plaintiff's counsel.
三。
Three.
2026年1月10日星期六，我去上班，然后和父亲以及表弟一起吃午饭。
On Saturday, 01/10/2026, I went to work and then got lunch with my father and my cousin.
之后我们一同开车返回我的工作地点。
We drove back to my work together after that.
在回去的路上，一辆车迅速超过我，加速后停在了马路中央。
On the way back, a car passed me quickly, sped up, and stopped in the middle of the street.
几个男人从车里下来，朝我们跑过来。
A few men got out of the car in front of us and ran towards us.
我关掉了车。
I turned off the car.
那些人告诉我，如果我不下车，他们就会强行把我拖出来。
The men told me if I didn't get out of the car that they would force me out.
我下了车。
I got out of the car.
他们说我被逮捕了，但没有说明原因。
They told me I was under arrest but didn't say why.
他们给我戴上了手铐。
They handcuffed me.
我把钥匙和手机留在了车里。
I left my keys and phone in the car.
我觉得自己被绑架了。
I felt like I was being kidnapped.
四、他们带我们去了同一个地方，也就是移民法院所在的惠普尔大楼。
Four, they took us to the same place, the Whipple Building where the immigration court is located.
第五，在车库，移民局官员检查了我们的物品和身份证件，然后把我们带进去，关进一个牢房，等待处理。
Five, in the garage, ICE agents checked our belongings and IDs, and then they took us inside and put us in a cell where we waited to be processed.
那个牢房很小，但已经关了大约40个人。
The cell was small but was already holding about 40 people.
我们在那个牢房里待了将近二十个小时。
We were there close to twenty hours in that cell.
那里又热又脏。
It was really hot and dirty.
地上散落着食物。
There was food scattered on the floor.
地板上沾满泥巴，什么东西都会粘在鞋底上。
The floor was sticky with mud, and everything stuck to your shoes.
我累极了。
I was so tired.
只有一个厕所，但完全没有隐私。
There was one toilet, but there was no privacy.
我担心病毒和细菌，因为那么多人挤在狭小的空间里。
I worried about viruses and bacteria since there were so many of us in the cramped space.
在将近二十个小时里，我们只被提供过两次食物，每次都是一个三明治、一个苹果和一块饼干。
We were only given food two times in that almost twenty hours, both times a sandwich, an apple, and a cookie.
我试图睡觉，但连坐下休息的空间都没有。
I tried to sleep, but there was no space to sit down.
当有些人从地上起来时，我就坐下去，但躺在水泥地上实在太疼了。
When some people got up from the floor, I would sit down, but it was painful to be on the cement floor.
六。
Six.
1月11日星期天，早餐后，一名移民局官员来带走了我。
On Sunday, January 11, after breakfast, an ICE officer came and got me.
他给我录了指纹。
He took my fingerprints.
我终于被允许打一个电话。
I was finally allowed to make one call.
一次通话，没有时间限制。
One call, no time limit.
我想给我的律师金·博切打电话，但我没有她的号码。
I wanted to call my attorney, Kim Boche, but I didn't have her number.
ICE官员说我会尽快被转移到德克萨斯州，并将在德克萨斯州面对法官。
The ICE officer said I was being moved to Texas as soon as possible, and I will face a judge in Texas.
七。
Seven.
1月11日上午11点左右，一名官员召集了牢房里的所有人，给我们戴上手铐脚镣，然后把我们送上卡车。
Around 11AM on January 11, an officer gathered everyone in the cell, chained our hands and feet, and we were put in trucks.
ICE把我们送到了机场。
ICE took us to the airport.
飞机上大约有120名被拘留者。
There were around a 120 detainees on the plane.
八。
Eight.
整个飞行过程中我都戴着镣铐。
I remained in chains the whole plane ride.
我非常饿。
I was very hungry.
有一段时间没有提供任何食物或水。
No food or water were offered for a while.
大约十二小时后，我终于在飞机上得到了一份小吃和水，而且还是戴着 handcuffs 吃的。
I was finally given a snack and water on the plane, about twelve hours since I had last eaten and had to eat with handcuffs on.
九。
Nine.
我于1月11日晚上六点或七点左右抵达德克萨斯州埃尔帕索。
I arrived in El Paso, Texas around six or 7PM on January 11.
到达德克萨斯州埃尔帕索的设施后，我得到一个小包，里面装着两条薄毯子、一条毛巾、两件T恤和一条内裤。
When I arrived at the El Paso, Texas facility, I was given a small bag with two thin blankets, a towel, two T shirts, and a pair of boxers.
十。
10.
监狱的安保人员告诉我，我被带到的德克萨斯州这个地方本是临时的，但我在那里待了十天。
I was told by the security official at the prison that the place I was brought to in Texas was supposed to be temporary, but I spent ten days there.
十二。
Twelve.
我们这间牢房里大约有七十二人。
There were about 72 of us in the cell.
牢房的大小相当于一个小体育馆，里面放了大约四十张上下铺。
The cell was the size of a small gym where they fit about 40 bunk beds.
这个中心的所有被拘留者只有两部翻盖手机可以共用。
There were only two flip phones for all the detainees in this center to use.
在我待在埃尔帕索的十天里，狱警大概只把手机带进牢房两到三次，每次两小时。
Over the ten days I was in El Paso, the officers probably brought the phones into the cell for our use two to three times for two hours each.
我们会聚在一起恳求狱警让我们给家人或律师打电话。
We would get together and beg the officer to let us call our family or our attorneys.
如果我们能拿到电话，也只能用两分钟。
If we could get the phone, we could only use it for two minutes.
轮到你的时候，你必须做好准备。
You had to be ready when it was your turn.
如果你没有记住律师的电话号码，就无法打给他们。
If you didn't have an attorney's number memorized, you couldn't call them.
拘留中心到处都有告示，承诺如果我们同意自行离境，每人给3000美元。
There were signs everywhere in the detention facility offering us $3,000 each if we agreed to self deport.
官员们经常试图让人签署同意自行离境的表格。
The officers would frequently try to get people to sign forms agreeing to self deport.
15。
15.
大约五六天后，我不太确定具体是哪天，我终于被允许打了一个两分钟的电话。
After five or six days, I'm not sure exactly, I was finally allowed to make a two minute phone call.
我通过窗户看到爸爸在另一个房间，从他那里得到了我律师的电话号码。
I was able to obtain my lawyer's phone number from my dad, who I saw through the window in a different room.
我请警卫帮忙，请另一位警卫向我爸爸要我律师的电话号码。
I asked the security guard to ask the other security guard to get my lawyer's phone number from my dad.
我终于能和我的律师金·博切通话了一分钟。
I was finally able to talk to my attorney, Kim Boche, for one minute only.
她说她正在设法安排和我通话。
She said she was trying to arrange a call with me.
保安开始对我大喊，说我的时间到了，所以我没听清楚多少。
The security guard started yelling at me that my time was up so I couldn't understand much.
我不太记得电话里说了什么。
I don't remember much of the phone call.
我太紧张了。
I was so nervous.
16。
16.
在十七号星期六，我跟我的律师通了话，她告诉我，我第二天或后天就应该被释放了。
On Saturday the seventeenth, I talked to my attorney, and she told me I was supposed to be released the next day or the day after that.
她告诉我，法官已经下令释放我。
She told me a judge had ordered my release.
我还在邮件中收到了一位老师寄来的两封信和一份电话号码清单。
I also received two letters and a list with phone numbers in the mail from one of my teachers.
她还寄了零食、衣服和一个笔记本，但我被禁止接收这些东西，只能保留文件和信件。
She also sent snacks, clothes, and a notebook, but I wasn't allowed to have any of this, only the papers and letters.
18。
18.
ICE没有告诉我，我的律师在我身处德克萨斯州期间一直在设法联系我。
ICE did not tell me that my attorney had been trying to call me and contact me while I was in Texas.
他们也没告诉我，我的律师已经聘请了另一位律师为我提交人身保护令申请，更没说法院已经批准了该申请并下令释放我。
They didn't tell me my attorney had retained another attorney to file a habeas petition on my behalf or that a court had granted it and ordered my release.
他们只是继续将我关押在那里，并时不时试图让我自行离境。
They just kept holding me there and occasionally trying to get me to self deport.
19。
19.
我在德克萨斯州埃尔帕索的拘留所被关押了大约十天。
I was in detention in El Paso, Texas for about ten days.
我认为是第十天的时候，我被转移了。
On what I think was the tenth day, I was moved.
一名运输官员问我们牢房里的人有没有吃饭，当一些人说没吃时，他让他们闭嘴。
A transportation officer asked those of us in the cell if we had eaten, and when some people said they hadn't, he told them to shut up.
二十。
Twenty.
我被转移到了新墨西哥州托兰斯的一个拘留中心。
I was moved to a detention center in Torrance, New Mexico.
去托兰斯的巴士旅程很可怕。
The bus ride to Torrance was scary.
巴士晃得很厉害，因为司机快睡着了。
The bus swerved a lot because the driver was falling asleep.
我以为我们肯定会死，而我什么也做不了，因为我被锁着。
I thought we would die for sure, and I wouldn't be able to do anything because I was chained.
到达托兰斯后，我不得不等待大约十二个小时才能完成登记。
After I arrived in Torrance, I had to wait for about twelve hours to be processed.
他们给我们测量了体温、血压、体重和身高，我想还给我们接种了某种麻疹疫苗。
They took our temperature, blood pressure, weight, and height, and I think gave us some type of vaccine against measles.
然后我被转移到一个有大约50个人的房间。
Then I was moved to a room with about 50 other people.
那里的食物糟糕透了。
The food there was awful.
看起来像狗粮。
It looked like dog food.
我在托兰斯待了六天。
I stayed at Torrance for six days.
二十二。
Twenty two.
在托兰斯，我能够给家人、律师和朋友发消息和视频通话。
In Torrance, I was able to message and video call with my family, lawyer, and friends.
我之所以能这样做，是因为我学校的老师们凑了钱，存到了我的账户里。
I was only able to do this because teachers at my school had pooled money and put it in my account.
使用平板电脑需要付费。
You needed to pay to use the tablet.
25号星期天，晚饭后，我被转移到了一个单人牢房。
On Sunday, the twenty fifth, after dinner, I was moved to a single cell.
牢房又小又冷。
It was small and cold.
我睡不着，因为太冷了，而且守卫整晚都开着电视。
I couldn't sleep because it was so cold and because the guard had the TV on all night.
《24小时》。
'24.
1月26日星期一，我早上大约4:30吃早餐。
On Monday, January 26, I got breakfast around 04:30AM.
上午10点左右，我被告知我们要被转移到西博拉监狱。
Around 10AM, I was told we were going to Cibola Jail.
没人解释原因。
Nobody explained why.
我被戴上手铐，塞进一辆车里，送往新墨西哥州的西博拉监狱。
I was handcuffed and loaded into a car and taken to Cibola Jail in New Mexico.
25。
25.
这个西博拉监狱太糟糕了。
This Cibola Jail was horrible.
地方非常拥挤。
It was cramped.
我又被锁上了链条。
I was chained up again.
狱警嘲笑我，称我为他们的敌人。
The officers mocked me and called me their enemy.
他们取笑我。
They laughed at me.
没人告诉我为什么我会被关在这里。
I wasn't given an explanation for why I was there.
26.
'26.
安保人员随后让我上了巴士。
Security guards then put me on a bus.
我想应该是1月27日左右。
I think it was around January 27.
我被上了手铐。
I was handcuffed.
巴士里冷得要命，因为司机把空调开得太足了。
It was freezing cold in the bus because the driver had the AC on.
我们都没穿外套。
We had no jackets.
巴士最终在2027年1月27日星期二清晨把我送回了埃尔帕索。
The bus eventually took me back to El Paso in the early morning of Tuesday, 01/27/2027.
我被关进了一个冰冷的牢房，只能睡在光秃秃的水泥地上。
I was put in a cold cell where I had to sleep on the bare cement floor.
一名警官告诉我，我根本没有机会返回明尼苏达州，对我而言最好的选择是自行遣返。
One officer told me that I had no chance of returning to Minnesota and that the best thing for me is self deportation.
她告诉我，如果我要打官司，将会在埃尔帕索再被关押两到三个月。
She told me that if I fought my case, I would spend two to three more months here in El Paso.
她提出给我2600美元，让我自行遣返。
She offered me $2,600 to self deport.
我拒绝了。
I refused.
他们没有告诉我，法官已经下令释放我并让我返回明尼苏达州。
They didn't tell me the judge had already ordered my release and returned to Minnesota.
如果我没有设法联系上我的律师——他之前就告诉我我已经获释——我可能会在那时放弃，签署自行遣返文件，因为这里的条件实在太难以忍受了。
If I hadn't managed to talk to my attorney who told me a while back that I was ordered released, I might have given up at this point and signed the self deportation forms because the conditions were so unbearable.
28。
28.
我被带去见医生，测量了体温和血压。
I was taken to a doctor to check my temperature and blood pressure.
我在诊所等到了下午1点30分左右，突然一名ICE官员叫了我的名字。
I waited at the doctor's office until around 01:30PM and then suddenly an ICE officer came and shouted my name.
她告诉我我可能要获释了，但别太兴奋。
She told me I might be free, but don't get too excited.
他们带我去了机场。
They took me to the airport.
29。
29.
我们到达机场时太晚了，错过了航班。
We arrived at the airport too late and missed the plane.
30。
30.
当我从机场被带回拘留中心、错过航班后，我无意中听到一名ICE官员用英语说：明尼苏达的法官要这个人回去。
When I was taken back to the detention center from the airport after missing the flight, I overheard an ICE officer saying in English, The judge in Minnesota wants this one back.
31。
31.
大约午夜时分，他们把我带到十到十五分钟车程外的另一个警察处理站。
At around midnight, they took me to another police processing station ten to fifteen minutes away.
早上5点，他们带我们去了机场。
At 5AM, they took us to the airport.
我被飞往丹佛，然后转机到明尼阿波利斯。
I was flown to Denver and then to Minneapolis.
32。
32.
到达明尼阿波利斯后，我被移交给了移民与海关执法局官员，戴上手铐，关进了当初一切开始时的那个监狱，地面还是那么脏。
When I arrived in Minneapolis, I was handed off to ICE agents, handcuffed, and put in jail at the same place where it all started with the same dirty floors.
我要求打个电话。
I asked for a phone call.
我给我的律师打了电话，但没人接。
I called my attorney but got no answer.
然后我给我的老师打了电话，就在我和她通话时，有人告诉我，我即将被释放。
I then called my teacher, and while I was speaking to her, I was told that I was being released.
我的老师来接我了。
My teacher came to pick me up.
我不得不签了很多文件，承诺不会参与任何组织。
I had to sign lots of papers saying that I wasn't going to be a part of any groups.
我不明白他们说的‘组织’是什么意思。
I didn't know what they meant by groups.
他们从未告诉我为什么拘留我。
They never told me why I was detained.
35。
35.
现在，我很高兴自己被释放了。
Right now, I am happy that I have been released.
我很感激我还有家人和律师。
I am grateful I have my family and an attorney.
当我回想被拘留的那段时光，我想到了很多种我本可能死在那里的情形。
When I think of my time in detention, I think of so many ways I could have died there.
我的车被拦在路中央的方式、我在惠普尔可能染上的疾病、从埃尔帕索开往新墨西哥途中司机在驾驶时睡着了。
The way my car was stopped in the middle of the road, the diseases I could have caught at the Whipple, the driver who was falling asleep at the wheel driving us from El Paso to New Mexico.
我在此声明，以上内容真实无误，如有虚假，愿承担伪证罪的法律责任。
I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct.
最终，奥斯卡被拘留了十八天。
In the end, Oscar was detained for eighteen days.
大卫·凯斯特鲍姆是我们节目的高级编辑。
David Kestenbaum is the senior editor of our show.
transcripts 中的 ICE 律师朱莉·李后来已被调任。
Julie Lee, the ICE attorney in the transcript, has since been reassigned.
O 的声明由马基斯·罗德里格斯朗读。
The declaration of o was read by Marquise Rodriguez.
里奇·萨默朗读了法庭笔录。
Rich Summer read the court transcript.
我们联系了司法部征求意见，他们给出了以下部分声明：如果投机的法官在审理案件时遵守法律，并尊重政府妥善准备案件的义务，就不会出现大量人身保护令案件，也不会对国土安全部是否遵从命令产生担忧。
We reached out to the Department of Justice for comment and got the following statement that reads in part, if rogue judges followed the law in adjudicating cases and respected the government's obligation to properly prepare cases, there wouldn't be an overwhelming habeas caseload or concern over DHS following orders.
今天《欢迎》节目由莉莉·沙利文制作，南希·奥普迪克编辑。
Welcome is produced today by Lily Sullivan and edited by Nancy Opdyke.
参与今天节目制作的人员包括：西娅·贝内特、达娜·奇比斯、迈克尔·科马特、阿维娃·德·科恩菲尔德、卡西·哈莉、塞思·林德、莫莉·马塞洛、凯瑟琳·雷蒙多、斯通·尼尔森、安东尼·罗马、瑞安·拉默里、艾莉莎·希普、艾克·什里·坎达拉贾、克里斯托弗·斯维塔拉和黛安·吴。
The people who put together today's program include Thea Bennett, Dana Chibis, Michael Komate, Aviva De Kornfeld, Cassie Hallie, Seth Lind, Molly Marcello, Catherine Raimondo, Stone Nelson, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rummery, Alyssa Ship, Ike Shri's Kandaraja, Christopher Switala, and Diane Wu.
我们的执行制片人是萨拉·阿布杜拉曼。
Our managing editor, Sara Abduraman.
我们的执行主编是埃马纽埃尔·巴里。
Our executive editor is Emmanuel Barry.
今天特别感谢杰里米·德文和苏珊·加伯。
Special thanks today to Jeremy Devine and Suzanne Gabber.
我们的网站是 thisamericanlife.org，在那里您可以免费收听我们超过800集的全部节目存档。
Our website, where you can listen to our entire archive of over 800 episodes for absolutely free, thisamericanlife.org.
《This American Life》由PRX——公共广播交换平台——提供给公共广播电台播出。
Thisamericanlife is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the public radio exchange.
本节目的联合创始人是托里·马拉蒂奥先生，他最近造访了卡斯特罗区，走进一家满是高大毛茸茸男士的酒吧，环顾四周后说
And this is our program's cofounder, mister Tory Malatio, know, who was visiting the castro recently, went to a bar filled with big, hairy guys, took one look around, and said
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。