附赠：南希的珍藏曲目

嘿，大家好。

Hey, everybody.

我是伊拉。

Ira here.

好的。

Okay.

接下来你们将听到的是一集特别节目，是我们迄今为止为《This American Life》合作伙伴制作并发布的20集特别节目之一。

So what you're about to hear is a bonus episode, one of 20, that we've produced and released for our This American Life Partners so far.

如果你还不了解的话，这些‘Life Partners’是每月支付少量费用以帮助我们持续制作节目的人。

And, the Life Partners, if you don't know about this, are people who pay a little bit of money each month to help us keep making the show.

作为回报，他们可以享受无广告的收听体验。

In return, they get ad free listening.

他们还能在播客订阅列表中直接获得数百集精选节目，以及像这一集这样的特别节目。

They get this list of hundreds of greatest hits episodes right in their podcast feed, and they also get bonus episodes like this one.

这是我最喜欢的作品之一。

This is one of my favorites that we've done.

本期节目由我们的制片人南希·厄普代克和我共同呈现，我们将回顾我曾讲述过的关于我个人经历的一些非常私人的故事。

It features our producer Nancy Updike and me, and we go through some stories I've done about some very personal things that have happened to me.

我希望你们会喜欢这个。

I hope you like this.

如果你们喜欢，我希望你们能选择订阅，并前往 thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners 收听其他内容。

And if you do, I hope you'll choose to subscribe and hear others over at this americanlife.org/lifepartners.

订阅有助于我们制作节目。

Subscribing helps us make the show.

它已经成为我们预算中不可或缺的一部分，也是我们未来规划的重要组成部分。

It's become an essential part of our budget, part of our plans for the future.

好的。

Okay.

接下来是特别节目。

Here's the bonus episode.

大家好，Life Partners。

Hey there, Life Partners.

我是伊拉，带来这一期附加节目。

Ira here with this bonus episode.

这一期，我请了我的同事南希·厄普代克，你好。

For this one, I've asked my coworker Nancy Updike Hello.

嗨。

Hi.

来演播室挑选几段她最喜欢的故事。

To come to the studio, pick a few favorite stories.

这种附加节目的想法——我们会做很多期这样的节目——是我们的某位制作人会来到演播室，带来一段很久以前播出过、我们没有重播过，或者我们认为很多人可能已经不记得了的故事，又或者这些故事只是让制作人觉得值得再次播放？

And the idea of this kind of bonus episode, and we're gonna be doing a bunch of these, is that one of our producers will come to the studio with some story that ran a long time ago, or we have not rerun them, or it's just that we think lots of people might not remember these particular stories or just their stories that struck the producer as being worthy of being played again?

是的。

Yes.

完全正确。

All true.

到目前为止，你说的都是事实。

So far, you're speaking facts.

谢天谢地。

Thank goodness.

纳恩，我们应该说明一下你和这个节目的关系，你其实从1995年节目一开始就在了。

And Nancy, we should say that just to explain your relationship with the show, you actually you were with the radio show at the very beginning in 1995.

你是第一个被我雇用的人。

I was the first person you hired.

没错。

That's right.

你当时在《新鲜空气》节目。

You were at Fresh Air.

我那时在《新鲜空气》节目。

I was at Fresh Air.

是的。

Yes.

你还记得我们是通过免提电话进行面试的吗？

Do you remember doing the the job interview over the phone on speaker?

我当时和你还有托里通过免提电话通话。

I was on speakerphone with you and Tory.

有点模糊。

Vaguely.

托里·蒙蒂，当然，我们在节目结尾感谢他，他帮助我创建了这个节目。

Tory Monti, of course, who we thank at the end of the show helped me create the show.

不。

No.

我的意思是，我记得这件事，也记得坐在托里的办公室里。

Mean, I remember the fact of it, and I remember sitting in Tory's office.

我能想象出那个场景，但不记得任何具体内容。

I can picture it, but I don't remember any of the content.

你记得什么？

What do you remember?

我记得我当时在《新鲜空气》工作了一年，但他们没能给我全职职位。

I remember I'd been working at Fresh Air for a year, and they couldn't hire me full time.

他们没有这笔钱。

They didn't have the money.

所以我做了其他工作来获得医疗保险，只是为了在这个世界上生存下去。

And so I was working other jobs to get health insurance and just, you know, live in the world.

我想你问过我关于《Fresh Air》的事，你知道的，我喜不喜欢在那里工作？

And I think you asked me about fresh air and, you know, did I like working there?

我不想留在那里吗？

Didn't I wanna stay there?

我说，他们告诉我，他们不能给我一个名分，而我想要那枚戒指。

And I said, well, they've told me that they can't make an honest woman of me, and I want the ring.

我想要一份全职工作。

I want a full time job.

我完全记得这件事。

Totally remember this.

我完全记得这件事。

I totally remember this.

我记得电话那头沉默了一会儿，我想，我刚刚是不是让双方都震惊了，或者我可能已经拿到这份工作了。

I remember there there was a pause at the other end of the line, and I thought, I think I might have scandalized both of them just now, Or maybe I just got the job.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这句话说服了他们给我这份工作。

I think that sold the job.

我觉得我们当时已经进入状态了。

I think we were into that.

很好。

Good.

很高兴。

Glad.

确认。

Check.

我想我们该开始讲你带来的这些故事了。

I guess we should jump into these stories that you brought.

我得说，我们现在讲的这一系列故事，对我来说异常私人。

I have to say, like, the set of stories we're doing right now are unusually personal stories for me.

先谈谈你想播放的这个故事吧。

Talk about this first one you want to play.

这是一个你写的故事，一篇短文，我记得当时听到时，真的让人停下手头的一切，专心聆听。

So this is a story that you wrote that, a short essay that I remember hearing at the time and really doing the thing that people talk about where they stop what they're doing and just listen.

这基本上是你为朋友玛丽写的悼词。

And it was it was basically a eulogy for your friend Mary.

同时，这也大量涉及了你和你的生活，你个人生活中正在发生的事情。

And it was also a lot about about you and your your life, things that were happening in your in your personal life.

你知道，我们认识很久了，但彼此生活中仍有大量我们不了解的部分。

And, you know, we've known each other for a long time, but there's huge parts of each other's lives that we don't we don't know what's going on.

而这次，是我记得第一次听到你的故事时，意识到：哦，伊拉的生活中发生了这么重大的一件事，而我之前竟没有完全察觉。

And this was one of the times that I remember hearing a story of yours and realizing, oh, this very big thing has happened in in Ira's life, and I'm I wasn't quite aware of it.

是的。

Yeah.

我得说，这个故事是在2017年播出的。

I have to say, like, that story aired in 2017.

你和我认识已经二十二年了，但我一直没告诉同事我和妻子阿娜heed分居了，而且那时我们已经分居好几年了。

You and I had known each other for twenty two years, but I hadn't told the staff that I was separated from my wife, Anahed, and had been separated at that point for years.

我们当时正努力复合，而我谁也没告诉，部分原因是出于保护欲——我非常笃定我们会复合，所以不想让人对她的事或我们分居的事有任何看法。

And she and I were trying to get back together, and I hadn't told anybody partly out of a sense of protectiveness, that when we got back together, which I very much assumed was going to happen, I didn't want there to be any kind of, like, feeling that people had about her and us being separated.

我只是觉得这是私事。

I just thought that was private.

你知道，她会来办公室，或者出现附近。

You know, she would come to the office or come around.

而且，我也觉得，作为大家的老板，如果我都不清楚的话……

And, also, I felt like, as everybody's boss, if if I don't know.

我只是觉得，我们谁都不想听老板的悲惨私生活。

I just think it's like, I just think none of us wanna hear about the sad personal lives of our bosses.

我觉得这些事就该藏在幕后，所以我谁也没告诉。

I think that that's, like, that should be off off stage, and so I told no one.

我第一次向那些每周和我一起工作五六十个小时的同事讲述这篇散文中的所有内容，是在我朗读这篇散文进行编辑的时候。

And the first time I said all the things in this essay to people who I work with for, like, fifty or sixty hours a week was when I read them the essay in an edit.

我当时基本上说，好吧。

I basically said, like, okay.

我有个东西，觉得可以填满这周的节目，所以让我读给你们听。

Have something I think can fill the show this week, and so let me read it to you.

然后他们就是这样知道的。

And then that was how they found out.

我不得不告诉他们，听好了。

I had to tell them, look.

我要说一些你们不知道的事情，然后我就读了这篇散文。

I'm gonna say some things here that you guys don't know, and then I read this essay.

我记得我记得，虽然我不在那次编辑会议上，但我听别人说，天哪。

And I remember I remember I I was not in that edit, but I remember people telling me, holy shit.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Alright.

我们来播放吧？

Why don't we play it?

好。

K.

这是2017年3月17日。

This is 03/17/2017.

那一集的主题是‘问成年人’。

And the theme of that episode was ask a grown up.

第四幕：问一位非常成熟的女性。

Act four, ask a very grown woman.

几天前，我的朋友玛丽·阿赫恩去世了。

A few days ago, my friend Mary Ahern died.

玛丽当时89岁。

Mary was 89.

过去十年里，我几乎每天都会和她聊天。

For the last ten years, I've talked to her nearly every day.

我和她在狗公园认识，我们安排好每天晚上十点在那里见面，这对我来说比对她来说需要更多的安排。

She and I met in the dog park, and we organized our lives to meet there at ten each night, which took a little more organization for me than for her.

她已经退休好多年了。

She'd been retired for years.

我有一份工作。

I had a job.

我工作需要出差。

I traveled for my job.

她曾从事过许多非常传统的纽约市工作。

She'd had many very old fashioned New York City jobs.

她曾多年担任奥尔特曼百货公司电话交换台操作员，后来升任交换台主管，那时奥尔特曼百货和电话交换台都还存在；她靠工会发放的养老金生活，住在一间受租金管制的公寓里。

She was a telephone switchboard operator and then the switchboard supervisor at Altman's department store for years, when both Altman's and telephone switchboards existed, lived on a pension from a union in a rent controlled apartment.

当我出差，或者当她的健康状况最终让她无法再去公园时，我们每晚都会打电话聊天。

When I traveled, and when her health eventually stopped her from going to the park, we'd talk on the phone every night.

好吧，这在广播里说有点私人，但几年前我和我妻子分开了。

Okay, this is a very personal thing to say on the radio, but my wife and I separated a few years ago.

所以这些年来，玛丽通常是我睡前最后交谈的人。

And so for years now, Mary has usually been the person who I talked to last before I'd go to sleep.

你不会让随便什么人进入你一天中这个部分，但我从未有过像我和她这样的友谊，每天都会互相问候。

That's not a part of your day you let just anybody into, but I've never had a friendship like my friendship with her, where you just check-in every day.

玛丽是我会一起观看总统辩论和选举结果的人。

Mary is the person who I would watch presidential debates and election results with.

因此大多数晚上，我们会交流新闻，聊聊我的一天。

And so most nights, she and I would catch up on the news, and we would talk about my day.

然后我们会聊聊她和约翰那天发生的事，约翰是她患有发育障碍的表弟，73岁，她照顾并收留了他四十多年。

And then she and I would talk about what happened that day with her and with John, her developmentally disabled cousin, 73 years old, who she cared for and housed for over four decades.

玛丽每天晚上都为约翰做晚饭，比如烤牛肉配土豆泥这类餐食，而这些饭她自己并不吃。

Mary cooked dinner for John every night, pot roast and mashed potatoes kinds of dinners, dinner she did not eat herself.

约翰的交谈方式是走进房间，对某个话题做出尖刻的评论，通常是他在新闻上看到的内容。

John's conversation style was to walk into a room and make a bitter pronouncement on some subject, often something he saw on the news.

在过去一年里，他坚信房间里有臭虫，或者某种虫子，正在他睡觉时咬他。

In the last year, he's become convinced that there are bedbugs in his room, or some kind of bugs, something that is biting him in his sleep.

但实际上根本什么都没有，真的是一无所有。

And although there's nothing there, really there's just, like, nothing at all.

这都是他脑子里想出来的。

It's all in his head.

他变得着迷，经常把衬衫和枕套拖到餐厅给玛丽看，坚持说布料上的小点是活物，而不是布料本身的图案。

He got obsessed, and he would haul shirts and pillowcases into the dining room to show Mary, insisting that the little dots in the fabric are living creatures and not just, like, the design of the cloth.

几个月来，我一直告诉玛丽，这可是约翰的新变化。

And for months, I've been telling Mary, like, this is a new turn for John.

他一向非常固执，但现在他已迈入了一个全新的状态。

Like, he was always incredibly bullheaded, but now he had crossed over into something new.

这看起来完全像是妄想，而且以一种全新的方式令人感到悲伤。

This just seemed like delusion and seemed sad in this whole new way.

我只是觉得我们应该请灭虫师来，大张旗鼓地假装喷药除虫，好让约翰安心。

And I just thought we should have the exterminator come in and, like, put on a big show and pretend to spray for bedbugs and put John's mind at ease.

在这个世界上，没有人比玛丽对约翰更有同情心，但不知为何，这个床虫问题对她来说实在太过分了。

And nobody in this world had more compassion for John than Mary, but somehow this bedbug thing was, like, a bridge too far for her.

她不想在这件事上纵容他。

She did not want to indulge him on this one.

她觉得，如果她开始在这上面花钱，接下来又会是什么？

She felt like if she started spending money on that, like, what was going to be next?

这看起来就像一条滑坡。

It just seemed like a slippery slope.

所以每天晚上，我都会听到约翰和床虫的最新情况，还有各种亲戚，比如住在华盛顿州的莫琳和她的孩子们，约翰的兄弟尼尔——我从未见过他。

So every night, would hear the latest with John and the bedbugs and the various relatives, Maureen and her kids in Washington State, John's brother, Neil, who I've never met.

但我对他在纽约警察局的岁月、他的退休金、他喜欢喝什么酒、最近的手术以及术后的康复情况都了如指掌。

But I know all about his years on the NYPD and his pension and what booze he likes, his recent surgery, his recovery from the surgery.

我也有自己的亲戚，很多很多。

I have relatives of my own, lots of them.

但我对这个我从未见过的男人尼尔的了解，比对我自己的亲戚还要清楚。

I don't know as well as this man, Neil, who I've never met.

玛丽和我关系足够好，以至于我们会互相烦对方，这种关系只有家人和最亲密的朋友之间才会出现，因为你们相处得太久了。

Mary and I were good enough friends that we would bore each other, which you only get with your family and your closest friends who you spend so much time with.

有些晚上，我会意识到她正在暗示我该挂电话了。

Some nights, I would be aware that she was ushering me off the phone.

她会跟我说：‘你一定很累了吧’，我知道这是她给我的信号。

She would say to me, you must be very tired, which I knew was the signal for her.

她今晚已经受够我了。

She'd had enough of me for the night.

玛丽一生都住在同一个地方，纽约市同一片街区的几套公寓里。

Mary lived her whole life in one spot, in apartments on the same two blocks of New York City.

就是第9大道，20街到22街之间。

This is 9th Avenue between 20th And 22nd Street.

她去世时，离她长大的地方只有两个街区。

She died two blocks from where she grew up.

她见证了这个街区这些年的变迁：从在切尔西码头工作的码头工人，到1970年代的同性恋群体，那首歌《YMCA》里的YMCA就在隔几条街的23街上，再到如今的富人区。

She saw the neighborhood change over the years from longshoremen who worked at Chelsea Piers to gay men in the 1970s, the YMCA of the song YMCA is just a couple blocks over on 23rd Street, to rich people today.

她似乎一直在不停地开支票，帮助各种需要帮助的侄女和她们的孩子。

She seemed to be constantly writing checks to help out various nieces and their kids who needed the help.

约翰大约在70年代中期突然出现在她家门口。

John basically showed up at her door in the mid-'70s.

家里其他人都不愿意收留他。

Nobody else in the family would take him.

她的朋友珍和她一起住了好多年。

Her friend Jean came and lived with her for years.

雷德是个无家可归的人，她在他重新振作起来后收留了他。

Red was a homeless guy she took in when he got his life together.

现在他成了一名护士。

Now he's a nurse.

当士绅化迫使贝au搬出社区里最后几处便宜公寓时，他需要一个落脚的地方。

Beau needed a place when gentrification knocked him out of one of the last cheap apartments in the neighborhood.

她的表弟汤姆在人生低谷时曾住在这里。

Her cousin Tom stayed during a rough patch.

所有认识玛丽的人都知道，她对需要家的流浪动物和流浪汉都心软。

Everybody who knew Mary was a soft touch for strays needing a home dogs, cats, people.

她和我经常一起做《纽约时报》的填字游戏。

She and I would do The New York Times crossword puzzle together.

她有一种黑色幽默感，总能迅速说出一句宿命论式的笑话。

She had a dark sense of humor, was quick with a fatalistic joke.

当我们去看戏剧或电影时，如果是喜剧她也能接受，但她总是更喜欢悲伤的剧情。

When we'd go to plays and movies, she was fine if it was a comedy, but always preferred something sad.

她说这是爱尔兰血统的影响。

Said it was the Irish in her.

三年前，我受邀去爱尔兰发表演讲，玛丽作为我的伴侣和我一同前往。

Three years ago, was invited to give a speech in Ireland, and Mary went with me as my plus one.

尽管她的家里装饰着许多爱尔兰格言和小摆设，但这却是她第一次踏上这片土地，我们还参观了金塞尔那座教堂——她父亲1889年受洗后离开爱尔兰前往美国的地方。

Though her house is decorated with little Irish sayings and knickknacks, this was her first trip to the country, and we visited the church in Kinsale where her father was baptized in 1889 before he left for America.

她并不是那种适合寻求感情建议的人。

She was not somebody to turn to for relationship advice.

她从未爱过任何人。

She'd never been in love.

尽管我们彼此如此了解，交谈如此频繁，我却始终无法开口问她是否曾经吻过任何人——男孩、男人，还是女人。

As well as we knew each other, and as much as we talked, I could never bring myself to ask if she had ever kissed anybody boy, man, woman.

我相当确定答案是否定的，而我不希望让她亲口说出来。

I'm fairly sure the answer was no, and I didn't want to make her say it out loud.

她唯一承认过的暗恋对象，是她十几岁时认识的一个男孩，后来他得了肺结核，住在上城区的结核病病房。

The only crush that she ever admitted to was a boy she knew back when she was a teenager and got tuberculosis and lived in a TB ward uptown.

他聪明，说话轻声细语。

He was smart, soft spoken.

如果我没记错的话，他也有肺结核，但他没能挺过来。

And if I remember right, he also had TB, though he didn't survive it.

所以，她对婚姻的了解，就跟我对20世纪50年代电话交换机的了解一样少——这意味着，如果我跟妻子阿纳赫闹了矛盾，满脑子想的都是这件事，玛丽根本就不是个能倾诉的好人选。

So she knew about as much about being in a marriage as I knew about running a 1950s era telephone switchboard, which meant that if I had a bad day with my wife, Anahed, and that's all I was thinking about, Mary was not a helpful person to talk to at all.

一方面，无论发生什么争执，她都毫无保留、不加批判地站在我这边。

For one thing, she was entirely and uncritically on my side in any dispute.

即使在我明知自己错了并告诉她是我的错的情况下，她还是会一再回到大萧条时期对婚姻的看法，认为婚姻不过是一种实用的安排，并不一定关乎幸福。

Even disputes where I knew I was in the wrong and I told her I was in the wrong, she would come back time and again to a kind of depression era view of marriage as a kind of practical arrangement that was not necessarily about happiness.

在她看来，我是家里挣得最多的人。

In her view, I was making most of the money in the family.

安妮德住在舒适的公寓里，能买她想要的东西。

Anhe was comfortable living in a nice apartment, could buy stuff she wanted.

安ahed有什么好抱怨的呢？

Why would Anahed complain?

她为什么不感恩呢？

Why wasn't she grateful?

她过得太轻松了。

She had it so easy.

我会试着向她解释那些让安ahed真正感到失望的事情。

I would try to explain to her the things that I was doing that rightly disappointed Anahed.

玛丽会摇摇头。

Mary would shake her head.

我不明白她有什么好抱怨的。

I don't see what she has to complain about.

今天的广播节目是关于向成年人寻求建议的。

Today's radio show is about asking a grown up for advice.

我已经完全成年了，而且比我在广播里听起来的年纪还要大。

I am fully grown up, and I'm older than I sound on the radio.

我刚满58岁。

I just turned 58.

这基本上就是60岁了。

That's basically 60.

够老了，以至于上周我读到一位30多岁的人说，当然，从来没有人真正觉得自己是成年人时，我想说：不对。

That's old enough that last week, when I read something by somebody in their 30s who said, well, of course, nobody ever fully feels like a grown up, I wanted to say no.

我真的觉得自己是个成年人。

I actually feel like a grown up.

我觉得自己是个成年人。

I feel like a grown up.

我能感受到我的责任。

I feel my responsibilities.

我能感受到它们的分量。

I feel the weight of them.

我知道自己何时达到了我对如何在这个世界生活、如何对待他人的理想标准。

I know when I have lived up to my own ideals for how I want to be in the world and treat others around me.

而当我没有做到时，我也能感受到。

And when I haven't, I feel it.

我以一种年轻时绝对没有的方式感到疲惫。

I feel tired in this way that I definitely did not when I was younger.

我现在在广播里提到玛丽，是因为坦白说，这周我很难去想或谈别的事情，但也是因为这周的主题是向成年人寻求建议。

And I'm talking about Mary here on the radio right now because, frankly, it's hard for me to think or talk about anything else this week, but also because this week's theme about asking advice from a grown up.

当你到了某个年纪，你会意识到每个成年人都能在某些方面提供建议，但在其他方面则不行。

When you get to a certain age, you realize each grown up is good for advice, but on certain subjects, and not on other subjects.

你必须有所选择，为不同的问题找到合适的成年人。

And you have to be picky and choose the right grown up for the right subjects.

然后我想，这周早上，当你到了某个年纪，就没有多少比你更年长的成年人可以请教建议了。

And then I think morning this week, when you get to a certain age, there aren't many grown ups older than you to ask advice from.

你所爱的人一个个离世。

The ones you love die off.

然后，这完全是个意想不到的糟心事——你竟然会怀念他们那些糟糕的建议。

And then and this is a total unforeseen pisser you miss their crappy bad advice.

你真的很怀念它。

You really miss it.

因为即使朋友给的最差的建议，也附带了另一个信息，那就是：我支持你。

Because even the worst advice from a friend comes with a second message, and that's just, I got your back.

玛丽给了我一些毫无用处的婚姻建议。

Mary gave me some really useless marriage advice.

而我则给了她完全不想要、也没被采纳的建议，关于她表亲根本不存在的臭虫。

And I gave her completely unwanted and unheeded advice about her cousin's nonexistent bedbugs.

我们各自都忽略了对方的建议。

And we each ignored the other's advice.

但我们确实听从了另一层意思。

But we did heed the other message.

她一直支持我。

She had my back.

我也支持她。

I had hers.

而最终，这当然更重要。

Which in the end, of course, was more important anyway.

自从我们播出了之后，我就没再听到过这句话。

I haven't heard that since we broadcasted.

是的。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我哭了。

I'm crying.

好的。

Okay.

我们聊聊吧。

Let's talk.

我有个问题。

Well, I have a question.

行。

Alright.

哪一部分让你最触动？

Which part got to you?

只是最后部分。

Just the end.

我忘了去关注，比如，你忽略了他们的错误建议。

I have forgotten to turn to, like, you missed their bad advice.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这完全是现在时。

It's very present tense.

直到那时，这还挺有趣的，因为你会想，写某些东西有多难，你和我往往会花上几周时间去写一些东西。

Up until then, it's sort of like it's funny because, like, you think about, like, how hard it is to write certain things, and you and I will, like, spend weeks writing something.

但说实话，我坐下来写了这个，这竟是我写过最轻松的东西。

And, like, really, I sat down and wrote this, and, like, it was the easiest thing I'd ever written.

我就坐下来了。

Like, I just sat down.

所有这些都蕴藏在我心里。

All that was in me.

结构一目了然，我直接坐下来，实时一口气写完，打字速度有多快，几乎就写得有多快。

This the structure was self apparent, and just I sat down and wrote it straight, like, in real time, you know, as fast as I could type, almost as fast as I could say it.

写完之后，我只是稍作调整，但基本上就是原样了。

It came out, and then I adjusted little things, but that was basically it.

所以当它从过去转向现在，转向那种思念一个人的感觉时，我就被触动了。

So when it turns from the past to the present of just, like, what it's like to miss somebody, you know, that's when it got to me.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正是我们现在所处的现在时态。

I mean, that's that's that's present tense for

对我们俩来说。

both of

就是我们现在的情况。

us right now.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我第一次亲眼目睹去世的人，是我母亲的第二任丈夫。

I mean, the the first person I watched die was my my mother's second husband.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我知道，过去一年半里，你妈妈去世了，你阿姨也去世了，我爸爸也去世了。

And then I know, like, in the last year and a half, your mom died, your aunt died, my dad died.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

当你说到结尾那句话时，我说我谈论这些部分是因为这周很难谈论别的事情。

When you when you got to the line toward the end where you say, I'm talking about this partly because it's hard to talk about anything else this week.

这对我来说太有道理了。

That makes so much sense to me.

当一个你亲近的人去世时，他们会在你的脑海中无比清晰地存在，你会觉得自己有点疯狂。

When somebody somebody dies you're close to, they're so present in your head, and it you feel a little crazy.

比如，从理智上讲，我在超市里遇到的那些人，并不认识我妈妈。

Like, you know intellectually, the people I'm talking to at the grocery store, they did not know my mother.

他们为什么会想到她呢？

Why would they be thinking about her?

只是，你知道的，装作正常，装作正常。

Just, you know, act normal, act normal.

但所有这些都在你脑海中翻腾，是的，我真的非常能理解那句话——很难谈论其他任何事情，我完全理解你坐下来写下这些，因为它们就在那里。

But all of this is sort of churning in your head, and, yeah, I really I I felt that line, that it's hard to talk about anything else, and it it makes it makes sense to me that you sat down and wrote it, and it was just there.

就像

Like

是的。

Yeah.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我们是否应该转向创作，而不是沉溺于悲伤？

Should we go to craft and turn away from just sadness?

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

我注意到没有音乐。

I noticed that there was no music.

哦，确实如此。

Oh, that's true.

这挺有趣的。

It's it's funny.

有几个停顿的地方，我觉得真难受。

There are a couple pauses where I was like, ugh.

这个停顿还不够长。

That pause isn't long enough.

还有几行是我正在读的。

And there's a couple lines that I'm a couple lines that I'm reading.

我本可以做到的。

I I could I could do that.

我可以更自然地说出那句话。

I could say that more naturally.

你能听出来我是在读那句话。

You can tell I'm reading that line.

我完全同意。

I totally yeah.

有几处停顿。

There were a couple pauses.

呃，真烦人。

Like, ugh.

就像是， literally 进入我脑海里，大概只有零点四秒。

It's like was was like, literally went it went into my head, like, point four seconds.

我当时就停了零点四秒，因为我是个疯子。

I had point four seconds right there because I'm a crazy person.

嗯，

Well,

你知道，听自己的故事，总是这样。

know, listening to your own stories, it's always Yeah.

就是这样。

It's yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没有音乐。

No music.

是的。

Yeah.

很难确定在哪里加音乐才不会显得俗气。

It's a hard thing to figure out where you'd put the music without it being corny.

而且我觉得一点都不拖沓。

Well and it I don't think it it drags, at all.

是的。

Yeah.

尽管你一直在从一件事跳到另一件事，没有清晰的情节，因为只是这个人去世了，你要谈论这个人。

And even though you're you're sort of spinning from from thing to thing, and there's no clear plot, because it's just this person has died, and you're gonna talk about that person.

是的。

Yeah.

就像，

Like, that's

这正是整个主题。

That's the whole agenda.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

整个议程。

Whole agenda.

而我们制作的其他所有内容，都明确地告诉我们：这就是关键所在。

Versus everything else we make where we're so clear about, like, here are the stakes.

赌注开始了。

The pot starts.

你有赌注，然后轮次，再轮次。

You have pot, then turn, then turn.

经常如此。

Often.

是的。

Yeah.

这是另一种结构，基本上就是一系列轶事，然后这件事能否成功，取决于每个轶事是否能让你学到新东西，是否足够吸引人、有趣。

This is the other this is the other structure where, basically, it's just gonna be a series of anecdotes, and then the thing either lives or dies or whether each anecdote teaches you something new, and is gripping enough, and interesting enough in and of itself.

所以你只能依靠——你没有结构来维持趣味性，因为你根本没有结构，除了‘再来一个’。

So you sort of like, you don't have the benefit of structure to keep it interesting, because you have no structure, except for here's another one.

现在又来一个，所以每个部分的负担都更重了。

And now here's another one, and then so each so there's more burden on each thing.

这就是我们几乎从不使用这种结构的原因，因为要让每个单独的轶事都足够有分量，让人愿意继续听下去，实在太难了。

That's why we almost never use this structure, because it's very hard to have individual anecdotes that are feel like they've got enough weight that you would keep listening.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我真的很喜欢那个关于她表弟约翰的片段，他把东西拖到客厅里，对虫子充满恐惧和执念的场景。

I really like the you know, talking about her cousin John and the the scene of him sort of dragging stuff out into the living room and having this fear and obsession with with bugs.

你会深入这个长长的叙述，然后转到玛丽的其他亲戚身上，而你早就听过很多关于他们的事了。

You know, you you sort of go into that whole extended thing, and then we go into other relatives of Mary who you have heard so much about.

天哪。

And Oh god.

尼尔，我终于见到他了。

Neil, who I finally met.

我终于见到了他。

Who I finally met.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。

Yeah.

她去世的时候。

When she died.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上，听到我如此深入地陷入约翰这件事时，我感到很惊讶。

I was surprised hearing it, actually, how deep I go into the John thing.

我记得我曾经在那里写过这些。

Like, I remembered I wrote that in there.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这很好。

It's nice.

这很好，因为你能深刻感受到她和他，这很有趣，因为有一件事。

It's nice because you, you know, you get a a sort of deep feel for her and for him at her It's funny because one thing

我记得我们删掉的一段是我加入了更多关于尼尔的细节。

that I remember we cut is I put in so many more details about Neil.

了解他的扑克牌局。

Know about his poker game.

我对尼尔了解太多了。

I know so much about Neil.

我觉得这竟然能延伸到这种地步，还挺有趣的。

And I thought it was kind of funny how far it could go.

人们都说，喝完威士忌就停吧。

People were like, let's just stop after the whiskey.

那份清单后面还有整整一节内容，都是类似‘你已经说清楚了’这样的意见。

There was a whole other section to that list that were just like, you made your point.

但我们还是继续吧。

Let's keep going.

这是不错的剪辑。

That's good editing.

是的。

Yeah.

你还有更多要说的吗？

Do you have more to say?

还有一件事，你知道，最大的爆点是，你和你的妻子阿纳德分开了。

There's just one more thing, which is, you know, obviously, the bombshell is that is that you were separated from your from your wife, Anahed.

但在这段故事里，你时不时透露出一些更深层的细节，比如‘我实际年龄比在广播里听起来要大’，这真的让人意外。

But it there's like, you share more in this in this story in a really kind of, just little moments here and there that is it's just surprising, you know, to say I'm older than I sound on the radio.

而且

And

是的。

Yeah.

这周很难再想别的事了，因为你并没有完全打破第四面墙。

And it's hard to think about anything else this week, that you're you're you're, you're not quite breaking the fourth wall.

但我觉得我喜欢这一点，就是你以一种独特的方式敞开心扉，既不一样，又不会让人觉得做作或矫情。

But I think that is that's one of the things I like about it, is that you're also just just being being open in a way that is that is different, but doesn't feel, I don't know, off putting or maudlin.

你提到这一点很有趣，因为实际上，自从我们开始做这个广播节目以来，我对‘在广播里做这份工作，尤其是我这样的职位，应该是什么样子’的想法已经改变了。

It's interesting that you're pointing this out, because actually my my thought about, like, what you're supposed to be if you're on the radio in this particular job and my particular job has changed since we started the radio show.

我一开始就觉得，最好不要对自己是谁太具体，而应该保持一种模糊的存在感，我只是一个喜欢这类故事的人。

Like, and I really started with the sense of, it's better not to be too specific about who I am and and to be more of a vague presence, that all I am is a person who, like, who likes these kinds of stories.

所以这样一来，任何人都可以往我身上投射任何想象，我就像一张白纸，就像你听特里·格罗斯在广播里说话时的感觉。

And so and so and so that way, anything can be projected on me, and I'm kind of a blank slate in a way that, like, I feel like Terry Gross, when you hear Terry on the air.

她看起来就是一个非常聪明、对各种事物都充满兴趣的人。

She just seemed like this really smart person who was interested in these different things.

我记得我第一次亲自见到她的时候。

And and I remember when I I met her in person for the first time.

我听她的广播已经很多年了，我一直认为，甚至现在也觉得，她在这份工作上做得堪称完美。

I had been hearing her on the radio for years, and I really just thought and think that she's just the best at that job that you could be.

是的。

Yep.

你对广播访谈了解得越多，就越觉得她了不起，确实如此。

And and the more you know about interviewing on the radio, the better she seems, Exactly.

你越了解，就越明白要做得看似简单有多难——采访世界上最有名的人，却能让他们说出一些从未说过或想过的话，让他们听起来就像普通人之间的对话，或者不管怎样，随便说点什么，等等。

The more, like, you guys just how hard it is to do something that looks so simple, to interview the most famous people in the world, and somehow get something out of them that they haven't said or thought before, and they sound like they're a human being having a conversation, or to jump in anyway, blah, blah.