窗外那些美国人

嘿，大家好。

Hey, everybody.

我是伊拉。

Ira here.

你们现在听到的这个，是我们额外制作的一集小彩蛋，我们决定把它加进播客流里，作为我们刚刚发布的全新节目《New Lord Drop》的补充。《New Lord Drop》已经在周日晚上按常规时间在The Feed上线了，现在应该就放在你播客应用里这集彩蛋的旁边。

This, thing that you're listening to right now is a little bonus episode that we decided to throw down the feed in addition to the new show that we just made, which is called New Lord Drop, which came out at the regular time on The Feed Sunday night and should be sitting right next to this bonus episode in your podcast app.

让我花点时间解释一下你们现在听到的是什么。

Let me, take a second and explain what you're listening to right here.

上周美国袭击委内瑞拉并逮捕了其总统尼古拉斯·马杜罗时，我一直在回想南希·厄普代克之前为我们节目做的一个故事，内容是关于委内瑞拉2024年大选的。

When The United States attacked Venezuela last week and captured its president, Nicolas Maduro, I kept thinking about this story that Nancy Updike did for our show a while back about the twenty twenty four election in Venezuela.

在那场选举中，民众发起了大规模的草根行动，不仅旨在推翻马杜罗、选出反对派候选人，而且他们还清楚地知道，必须证明反对派确实赢得了选举。

In that election, there was this massive grassroots effort not just to oust Maduro and elect the opposition candidate, but also they knew that they were going to have to prove that the opposition actually won.

这意味着全国成千上万的志愿者提前数月就进行了规划和训练。

And so what that meant is tens of thousands of volunteers around the country planned and trained for months.

到了选举日，他们不仅成功动员了大量选民前往投票，还组织了一整套行动，挨家挨户收集了全国大部分投票站的纸质选票统计结果。

And then on election day, they not only managed to get a huge turnout going out and voting, They also organized this whole thing where they went around and they collected paper copies of the vote totals from most of the voting centers around the country.

好的。

Okay.

所以他们有这些纸质收据。

So they have these paper receipts.

他们扫描了这些投票总数，加总后上传到网上，证明反对派候选人埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯以压倒性优势击败了马杜罗。

They scan these vote totals, added them up, put everything online, proving that the opposition candidate, Edmundo Gonzalez, beat Maduro and beat him decisively.

他们的数据显示，投票结果是二比一。

Their numbers showed a two to one victory.

人们痛恨马杜罗到这种地步。

People hated Maduro that much.

但选举当局宣布马杜罗获胜。

But election authorities declared Maduro the winner.

他继续掌权。

He stayed in power.

人们进行了抗议。

People protested.

马杜罗进行了大规模逮捕，超过1500人被拘留。

Maduro cracked down with mass detentions, over 1,500 people.

联合国对此展开调查，发现许多被拘留者遭受了酷刑。

The United Nations looked into it and found that many of those detainees were tortured.

全世界都知道谁赢了。

The world knew who won.

包括美国在内的世界各国都审查了反对派的数据，核对了收据，确认其数据可靠，并正式承认反对派候选人埃德蒙多·冈萨雷斯为委内瑞拉合法当选的总统。

Countries around the world, including The United States, went through the opposition's numbers, looked to the receipts, concluded they were solid, and officially recognized Gonzalez, the opposition candidate, as the winner and rightful president of Venezuela.

但就在上周，正如你可能看到的，当美国逮捕了马杜罗总统时，特朗普总统并没有说：‘好吧。’

But this past week, as you probably saw, when The United States captured president Maduro, president Trump did not say, okay.

这才是真正赢得选举的人。

Here's the guy who actually won the election.

这是反对派的领导人，诺贝尔和平奖得主玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多。

Here's the woman who leads the opposition that he's part of, Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Carina Machado.

让我们终于让他们掌权，这让我产生了疑问。

Let's finally put them in power, which made me wonder.

那些参与大规模有组织运动、旨在将马杜罗赶下台并证明他们赢得选举的委内瑞拉人，他们对上周发生的事件有什么看法？

What do all those Venezuelans who were part of this big organized movement to vote Maduro out of power and prove that they won, who did all that so, so well, what do they think of the events of the last week?

这对他们来说意味着什么？

What's this been like for them?

他们感到愤怒吗？

Are they angry?

他们是否还抱有希望，认为自己仍有机会？

Do they see any hope that they might get a shot?

记者纳恩西·赫普·戴金和阿纳亚恩西·迪亚兹·科特斯联系了其中一人并进行了交谈。

Well, Nancy Hep Daikin reporter Anayansi Diaz Cortez reached out to one of those people and talked to her.

她谈到了许多有趣且发人深省的观点，这些内容在其他报道中从未出现过。

And she said all kinds of interesting and eye opening things that we have not heard elsewhere in the coverage.

接下来你们将听到的是阿纳亚恩西的转述。

So what you're about to hear, you'll hear Anayansi interpreting.

她一直协助我们完成所有关于委内瑞拉的报道。

She's helped us with all of our Venezuela coverage.

你将听到的是她在对话过程中实时翻译的录音。

And what you're going to hear is her live translation recorded during the conversation.

所以这并不是逐字逐句的精确翻译，但非常接近。

So it's not word for word exact, but it's close.

由于这场对话具有极强的时效性，我们认为现在就发布它是最合适的，而不是等待某个主题或契机，因此本周你听到的这一期是特别加播的。

Because this conversation is so of this moment, we thought made the most sense to put it out now and not wait for some theme or something, hence this extra episode this week that you're listening to.

以下是南希·厄普代克。

Here's Nancy Updike.

许多委内瑞拉人期待着某种重大行动。

A lot of Venezuelans were expecting some kind of big move.

美国数月来一直在轰炸委内瑞拉的船只。

The US had been bombing Venezuelan boats for months.

美国的航空母舰和驱逐舰一直在加勒比海集结。

American aircraft carriers and destroyers had been assembling in the Caribbean.

很明显，即将发生某些事情。

It was clear something was about to happen.

我采访的那位女士，特蕾莎，也有所预料。

The woman I talked to, Teresa, had also been expecting.

但她不知道会是什么。

She didn't know what.

袭击发生时，她正和家人待在首都加拉加斯郊外的家中，包括她的两个成年子女。

When the attack happened, she was at home in her neighborhood just outside the capital, Caracas, with her family, including her two grown children.

特蕾莎不是她的真名。

Teresa is not her real name.

在委内瑞拉，任何曾组织反对马杜罗的人仍然面临危险。

It's still too dangerous in the country for anyone who organized against Maduro.

袭击发生在当地的午夜时分。

The attack started in the middle of the night, her time.

我当时的感受是，我们在度假。

How I experienced it is that, you know, we're on vacation.

你知道，当时已经很晚了，但我们还没睡。

You know, we're we're it was late, but we were up late.

我们正在电视上看连续剧。

We were watching a series on TV.

我，你知道，我和我女儿。

Me, you know, the me and my daughter.

然后突然，你知道，我们正看着剧，我听到了一个声音。

And then suddenly, you know, we're watching the series, and I hear, like, a sound.

我不知道，一种长长的嗡嗡声，听起来像飞机，然后。

I don't know, a a long droning sound that sounded like a plane, and then.

我立刻走到窗边。

I immediately go to the window.

我走到窗边。

I go to the window.

你知道，我离现场有点远，但那天晚上是满月或者接近满月。

You know, I'm a little bit I'm a little bit far away from the scene, but it it was a full moon that night or or close to a full moon.

所以透过我的窗户可以清楚地看到六架没有开灯的直升机，噪音非常大。

So you could clearly see six helicopters with no lights on and a lot of noise through my window.

有六七架直升机，虽然离得挺远，但又离我家很近，很容易就能看到。

There was six or seven helicopters that were you know far away but also really near my house and it was was quite easy to see.

所以你知道，我们当时就像置身于一场实景中，窗外发生的一切和我们接收到的信息完全同步，但那又不像真正的现场直播？

So you know we it was how can I explain it it was it was almost like a live action situation where we're like what we're seeing outside our window and the information we're getting is totally communicating with each other and it was just it wasn't like live?

那是活生生的现场。

It was in vivo.

其实就是实时发生的。

It was basically live.

我们会在手机上收到信息，然后立刻在眼前看到事情发生。

We would get the information on our phone and then we would see it playing out in front of us.

我们先在眼前看到事情发生，然后才在手机上收到相关信息。

We would see it playing out in front of us and then we would get it on our phone.

就是这样，是的。

It was just yeah.

这基本上是一场实时事件。

It was a live event, basically.

所以，你知道，这是一种复杂的情感，或者说混合的情感，就像西班牙语里说的那样。

So, you know, it's a lot of dual feelings or found, you know, mixed feelings, found feelings as you say in Spanish.

比如，你知道，一方面，他们正在轰炸我们的国家。

Like, you know, on the one hand, it's like, yes, they're they're bombarding our country.

他们正在轰炸委内瑞拉。

They're bombarding Venezuela.

这是一种入侵，但另一方面，他们是在追捕坏人。

There's a kind of invasion, on the other hand, they're they're going after the bad guys.

那种感觉就是他们在追捕坏人。

That was the feeling that they were going after the bad guys.

所以我感到矛盾。

So I felt split.

我既感到被入侵，又觉得他们是在追捕坏人。

I felt both invaded and also like they were going after the bad guys.

我们感到高兴吗？

Did we feel happy?

是的，我们感到高兴。

Yes, we felt happy.

Felices。

Felices.

我们感到非常开心和感激。

We felt so happy and grateful.

感激终于有事情发生了，终于有了进展，但同时也很担心，毕竟有人为此付出了代价。

Grateful that that something was finally happening, that there was movement finally happening, and at the same time worried, of course, that there are people paying for this.

你知道，有个朋友，她的房子被炸了。

You know, a friend, you know, her house exploded.

她本人没事，但房子里的一切，所有窗户都碎了。

She was fine, but everything in her house, all the windows were broken.

那些士兵的死亡也让我担忧，谁在为这一切付出代价？

The death of a lot of those soldiers also worried me, like, who was paying that price?

然后我们坐在那里，既高兴又感激，突然听到一声巨响，像是机场附近有巨大的爆炸。

And then so we're sitting there feeling happy and feeling grateful, And then we hear an explosion, like a huge light just exploding near an airport.

而且，你知道，我们也有完整的视觉画面。

And, you know, we have a full, you know, full visual of that too.

它就像一道闪电一样划过。

It would just went like a lightning flash.

当时有一种预期。

There was a kind of expectation.

这并不是完全出乎意料。

It's not it wasn't a complete surprise.

你知道，大家多少都预料到会发生点什么。

Like, you know, there was kind of an expectation that something was gonna happen.

当时有种隐隐的预感，你知道，但我确实感到一阵恐慌，我想这么形容——那种矛盾的情绪，既有恐慌，又不清楚发生了什么，同时又带着一丝喜悦，那时我上了楼去找我的孩子们，我上楼后，我们就在那里观察着一切发生的情况。

Something there was something kind of afloat, you know, but I did I did feel like a sense of panic, I would describe it and and you know, that duality of feelings of like panic, but also not knowing what's happening and and a kind of happiness and that's when I went upstairs to where my kids were, but that's I went upstairs, and then that's where we were observing everything that was happening.

大约在凌晨两点，发生了这件事。

At around 2AM, this was happening.

而且

And

你上楼的时候，对孩子们说了什么？他们是怎么回应的？

when you went upstairs, what did you say to your kids, and what did they say?

我上楼的时候，看到了我儿子，他当时一直在跳来跳去。

So when I went upstairs, you know, I saw my son, and he, I mean, he was jumping up and down.

他们到了。

They arrived.

老实说，我当时更处于震惊状态。

Honestly, I I was more in shock.

你知道，我女儿从那一刻起就一直盯着手机。

You know, my my daughter, she was, you know, she was stuck to her phone from that second.

我们当时在用WhatsApp。

We were on WhatsApp.

我们只是试着弄清楚到底发生了什么。

We were just, like, trying to understand what was happening.

但我要说，我们离得足够近，能感受到爆炸的冲击。

But I will say we are, you know, close enough to have felt the explosion.

你知道吗，我们当时并不知道马杜罗是被撤离了还是没被撤离，也不知道谁死了、谁没死。

You know, what we didn't know was if Maduro had been extracted or not extracted, if, you know, who was dead or who wasn't dead.

这些我们都不清楚，但你知道，我女儿会说双语，她一直在关注X平台，追踪特朗普的推文。

That we didn't know, but, you know, my daughter who's bilingual was, you know, was following x and and following Trump's tweet.

所以我们一直在等特朗普发推。

So we were waiting for for Trump to tweet.

一旦特朗普发了推文，我女儿就把它翻译出来，我们这才得知马杜罗已经被撤离了。

And then once Trump tweeted, my daughter translated that, and we knew that Maduro had been had been extracted.

那么，当你的女儿看到特朗普总统发推或宣布马杜罗和他的妻子已被带出国家时，你有什么反应？

So when when your daughter saw president Trump's tweet or announcement that that Maduro had been and his wife had been taken out of the country, what was your reaction?

一开始，那一刻我唯一的感觉就是告诉女儿确认清楚。

At first, the first moment, the only thing I felt was verified to my daughter.

我告诉她：确认，确认，再确认。

I told her verify, verify, verify.

这就是我唯一想要的。

That's all I want.

我想知道，你知道的，这到底是不是真的，因为现在假新闻太多了，到处都是假新闻。

I wanna know, you know, if this is really true because there's so much fake news and and so much fake news out there even.

什么是真的，什么是假的。

What's real, what's not real.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

但我能跟你说什么呢，南希？

But what am I gonna tell you, Nancy?

我们很高兴。

We were happy.

我们充满喜悦。

We were filled with joy.

我们当时，你知道的，一直在跳来跳去。

We were, you know, we were we were jumping around.

我当时有那种感觉，当我们意识到这是真的时，我想让他也经历我们所承受的痛苦，你知道的，就像我们受的苦一样。

I had, you know, I had these feelings of the moment we realized it was real that, you know, I wanted him to suffer, you know, kind of what we've suffered.

而且，你知道，我知道这并不太像一个好男人该有的想法。

And, you know, I know that's not very, you know, good of a man.

他不会像我们那样受苦。

He's not gonna suffer like we suffered.

有时候我会想，他现在处境还不错，但你知道，在那些时刻，我们根本没法保持理性，只是被情绪左右，而我当时感受到的是一种满足。

He's, you know, sometimes I'm like, he's in good hands, but, you know, we we don't have the capacity to be to be rational in those moments, just just feeling things and and what I felt was satisfaction.

当然，我一开始根本不敢相信事情会这么快发生。

Of course, didn't believe it at first and that this could happen so fast.

两小时说长不长，说短也不短，而且没有任何抵抗，因为现在在委内瑞拉，根本没什么可抵抗的。

It was, you know, two hours is a long time, but it was also a short time and without resistance because really right now in Venezuela, there's nothing to resist with.

所以我们所求的只是真相，我不知道该怎么更好地表达，但我们确实感到一种巨大的满足。

So that's all that's all we wanted was was the truth and and I don't know how else to put it, but I we felt a grand sense of satisfaction.

在特朗普总统、马可·卢比奥、皮特·海格塞斯等人召开新闻发布会后的第二天左右，这种满足感发生了变化。

That feeling of satisfaction changed over the next day or so after President Trump, Marco Rubio, Pete Hegseth, and others held a press conference.

特朗普说，美国将接管委内瑞拉。

The United States would run Venezuela, Trump said.

他几乎没提到特蕾莎的政治偶像、反对派领导人玛丽亚·卡琳娜·马查多。

He barely mentioned Theresa's political hero, opposition leader Maria Carina Machado.

特朗普把马查多称为‘一个非常不错的女人’。

Trump dismissed Machado as, quote, a very nice woman.

特朗普提到的委内瑞拉新领导人是副总统德尔西·罗德里格斯。

The person Trump did talk about as the new leader of Venezuela was the vice president, Delsi Rodriguez.

特朗普说她将负责管理。

Trump said she would be in charge.

德尔西·罗德里格斯是马杜罗团队的忠实成员。

Delsi Rodriguez is a devoted member of Maduro's team.

特蕾莎慢慢意识到，马杜罗的整个政府——她和数以万计的人曾组织起来、投票希望改变的这个政府——将原封不动地保留下来。

And what Theresa slowly realized is that Maduro's entire government, the government she and tens of thousands of others had organized and voted to change, The whole thing was gonna remain intact.

你知道，在那之后的几天里，对我和我的家人来说，非常清楚的是，特朗普的关切只在于他的国家、他的政党、他的人民以及他身边的人。

You know, in the days that did follow that, you know, what is very clear to me and my family is that Trump is his interests are of his country and of his party and of his people and the people close to him.

他的利益并不是我们人民的利益，这一点非常非常清楚。

The his interests aren't of our people, and that is very, very clear.

所以这些天我花了很多时间去理解他政府的决策，了解美国政治，以及这到底意味着什么。

So a lot of my time in these days have have been spent kind of understanding the decisions of his administration and understanding gringo politics and, like, and what that is.

而且我仍在努力理解。

And it's and I'm still trying to understand.

我还没有完全弄明白。

I don't totally get it.

当然，有很多决定让我觉得风险很大，不太理想，但很明显，这些决定反映的是他的利益，而不是我们的利益。

And there's a lot of decisions that, of course, feel risky to me and and not great, but but it's clear that it's his interest not not ours.

但我也没想到另一面——我开始听马尔科·卢比奥的发言，我们所有人都渐渐感到一种绝望，心情非常非常糟糕，我不知道该怎么形容。

But I also wasn't expecting, you know, the other side, which was I began to listen to Marco Rubio and just we all started to just feel the sinking feeling and just feel very, very bad, you know, and and just not really how can I put it?

我不明白为什么特朗普说他正在与德尔西·罗德里格斯谈判。

I don't understand why Trump is is saying this is negotiating with Delsi Rodriguez.

你知道，德尔西和她的助手，是的。

You know, Delsi and her bra yeah.

她的兄弟，你知道，和她谈判非常危险，美国正在玩一场极其危险的游戏。

Her brother, you know, it's very risky and dangerous to to negotiate with her, and it's a very risky and dangerous play that The United States is doing.

看到这一切发生，我情绪非常激动，以至于我还没去听玛丽亚·科里娜说了什么。

It's been so emotional for me to see that play out that I haven't even listened to Maria Corina yet in what she has said.

我正在消化这件事：马可·卢比奥和特朗普政府正在与掌权的副总统德尔西·罗德里格斯进行谈判。

I'm just processing this negotiation of of of Marco Rubio and the Trump administration negotiating with vice president Delsy Rodriguez, who's now in power.

那么，在政府频道或广播上，电视上播的是什么？

And what is on TV on, you know, the government channels or radio?

他们都在说什么？

What what are they saying?

新闻什么都没说。

The news says nothing.

他们搞的是马戏表演。

They do circus.

他们放音乐。

They do music.

他们什么也不做。

They do they don't do anything.

他们已经完全接管了。

They've just taken it over.

所以是的，这种闹剧还在继续。

So yeah, it continues to be circus.

我

I

我只是想说清楚，我有两个孩子，你知道，其中一个可能比另一个更关注政治，但在这之前，我们知道这事迟早会发生。

just, you know, I just wanna make clear, I have two kids, You know, one may be more politicized than the other or not, but before all this, you know, we we knew this was coming.

我们不知道它会以什么方式发生。

We didn't know how it was coming.

我们不知道它什么时候会发生，但我们知道一件大事即将来临。

We didn't know when it was coming, but we knew that something big was coming.

而且，过去几周甚至几个月，我一直说：别上街。

And, you know, and for weeks and months now I've been like, don't be on the street.

你只是完全处于偏执状态，时刻盯着他们的一举一动。

Where are you just completely paranoid and keeping track of them.

你知道，我真的很感激这一切发生的时候，我们全家都在家。

And you know, I'm just so grateful that how this all happened, when this all happened, that we were all at home.

但当我看着他们，那些二十多岁的年轻人时，我就想，他们连出门都不敢。

But you know, as I look at them sometimes in their, you know, in their twenties and I'm like, they can't even go on the street.

他们不能外出。

They can't go outside.

他们正把青春、人生最好的时光，困在家里，和母亲一起生活在恐惧中。

They're spending their youth, their best years, like, living inside with their mother in fear.

所以，当你听到我说，即使特朗普让我害怕，我还是觉得特朗普得再回来，把黛西或者别的什么人搞掉，而他居然在和她谈判，这真的让我非常恐惧。

And so, you know, when I tell you that even as as much as Trump scares me, I I think Trump needs to come again to get Delsy or whatever, and and it really scares me that he's negotiating with her.

但我想让你明白，也告诉你，只有在黛西·罗德里格斯、这个政府掌权的情况下，和你们对话只会越来越难。

But just to give you a sense and to also tell you that it will only be, you know, with Delsy Rodriguez, with the person in charge, with this government in charge, it will only get harder to talk to you.

随着时间推移，和你们交流只会越来越困难。

It will only get harder to speak with you over time.

但你知道，我只是其中一个特蕾莎，但还有许多、许多、许多个特蕾莎，而且说实话越来越难说出真相了。

And, you know, I am but one Teresa, but there are many, many, many Teresa's, and it's only getting harder to speak the truth.

你刚才说，你现在正在花时间去理解白人的政治。

You were saying that, you're you're spending time now, trying to understand gringo politics.

你认为怎么样？你有什么看法？

What are you what are you what do you think?

你对我们正在做的事怎么看？

What's your take on what we're doing?

说实话，我非常担心。

To be honest, I'm very worried.

他们给了这个政府太多时间，这个依然存活的政府。

They're giving so much time to this government, this government that continues to be alive.

不管你给他们三周还是三个月，你知道，他们都不会停止。

And whether you give them three weeks or three months, you know, they're not stopping.

他们只是在不断巩固自己的权力。

They're only solidifying their power.

是的。

Yes.

他们赶走了马杜罗，但权力结构依然存在。

They took away Maduro, but there's the the power the power structure is still alive.

昨天，他们抓走了我不知道多少名记者。

Yesterday, they took I don't know how many journalists.

他们仍在逮捕政治犯。

They're still taking political prisoners.

特朗普与我们许下的诺言，要重建某种形式的民主，根本没有实现。

The oath that Trump took with us of of reestablishing some kind of semblance of democracy, that's not happening.

对于像我这样的特蕾莎，那些走上街头的人，我不知道该对你说什么。

And for the Tresas like me, the ones on the street, the ones walking the street, I don't know what to tell you.

我们备受煎熬。

We're tormented.

我们今天很担忧。

We're worried today.

今天。

Today.

今天。

Today.

今天。

Today.

不是三天前。

Not three days ago.

不是以那种方式。

Not in a way.

今天，特朗普并没有践行他所说的话。

Today, Trump is not doing what he says.

他有，但特朗普在这里仍然没有权力。

He has and Trump still doesn't have power here.

四天过去了，我们依然看到更多的逮捕和更多的肆无忌惮。

Four four days into this, and we're still seeing more arrest, more impunity.

我们看到的还是同样的情况。

We're seeing more of the same.

我想知道，一场民主选举，一个民主政府，是否和这件事发生前一样遥不可及，甚至更远了？

I guess I'm wondering if if a democratic election, if a a democratic government seems just as far away as it did before this happened or farther?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我相信我们正走在通往民主的路上。

I believe we are on a path to democracy.

我为什么这么相信？

Why do I believe this?

因为我必须相信。

Because because I have to.

因为这场斗争不能白费。

Because this fight can't be in vain.

因为对我来说，道路必须是民主，因为这些年来我所投入的一切都是为了这个。

Because the path for me has to be democracy because that's what I've invested my life in in all these years in.

我担心吗？

Am I worried?

是的。

Yes.

我已经告诉过你了。

I've told you.

我确实很担心。

I am worried.

我不认为特朗普走的是最好的路。

I don't think that that Trump is taking the best path.

对我来说，你知道，这有点像，什么是眩晕。

To me, you know, it's a little bit which is like, what is Dizziness.

这是政治上的眩晕。

It's political dizziness.

你知道，特朗普用政治让我们晕头转向，我不认为选举会立即举行，但它们必须举行。

He's you know, Trump is is making us dizzy with politics, and I don't think elections are gonna have happen immediately, but they need to happen.

如果我们现在举行选举，我们就能改变这个政府。

If we held elections right now, we could change this government.

我的担忧，我主要的担忧是过渡期，就是从今天到下一次选举之间的这段时间。

My worry my main worry is the interim, the right now, from today to the new elections.

所以如果特朗普真的在这里掌握权力，那么他需要确保政治犯获得自由。

So if Trump really has power here, then, you know, then Trump needs to make sure that the political prisoners are free.

他们不必今天全部出来。

They don't all have to come out today.

可以一次放三个人。

It can be three at a time.

你知道，这才是展现权力的方式，然后举行选举。

You know, that is how you show power, and then you hold elections.

如果你举行选举，我保证会有一个新政府上台，但这是必须发生的事。

And if you hold elections, I guarantee that there will be a new government in place, but that's what has to happen.

南希·赫普戴克是我们节目的制作人之一。

Nancy Hepdyke is one of the producers of our show.

自从她完成这次采访后，委内瑞拉政府释放了一些政治犯。

Since she did this interview, the Venezuelan government has released some political prisoners.

德里奥·罗德里格斯政府一直在谈论与美国扩大外交关系。

The government of Del Rio Rodriguez has been talking about expanding diplomatic ties with The United States.

特朗普总统表示，委内瑞拉必须等到美国能够‘重建这个国家’之后才能举行选举。

President Trump has said that Venezuela cannot hold elections until The United States can, quote, rebuild the country.

这一集迷你节目由南希与安娜·亚恩西·迪亚兹·科特斯、马尔·斯塔尔切斯基、多萝西·克罗尼克、海伦娜·卡皮奥、斯通·纳尔逊、苏珊娜·加伯和我共同制作。

This mini episode was put together by Nancy with Ana Yancey Diaz Cortez, Mar Starcheski, Dorothy Kronick, Helena Carpio, Stone Nelson, Suzanne Gabber, and me.

我们这周有一期全新的常规节目。

We have a whole new regular episode this week.

正如我所说，这期节目真的很棒。

As I said, it's really good.

很有趣。

It's fun.

它叫《新领主掉落》。

It's called New Lord Drop.

留意一下这个。

Keep an eye out for that.

它现在应该已经在你的信息流里了。

It should be in your feed right now.

谢谢收听。

Thanks for listening.