偶然相遇：当生活召唤我们踏上新道路

而偶然事件是与那真正主导过程的中心建立联系的机会。

And the chance happening is an opportunity to relate to the center that's actually ordering the process.

因此，如果我们把生活视为由我们自身内外的力量所组织的过程，我们就能开始细致地观察征兆和预示，从而选择顺应自己的个人意志，或顺应生活的进程。

So if we were to see our lives as a process that is organized by forces above us and within us, then we can move into kind of a careful observation of the auguries and the signs so we can go along with our personal determination or we can go along with the process of living.

而其中一种方式比另一种更具关联性。

And and one is more relational than the other.

我们都明白这一点。

And we all know that.

有时我们被强烈驱使去完成某件事，其他一切都会被抛在脑后。

There are times when we're we're very driven to kind of accomplish something and everything else kind of falls by the wayside.

我们没有时间顾及人际关系。

We don't we don't have time for our relationships.

我们没有时间进行冥想。

We don't have time for our meditation.

我们要做英雄。

We're gonna be heroic.

因此，我们也可以这样说，通过与中心点建立联系，自我与周围所有因素之间的关联性便变得更加可能，因为围绕我们的所有角色都成为自我的化身，承载着一种我们通常不会赋予他们的尊严与价值，包括书籍在内。

So we could also say that by relating to the center point that then a kind of relatedness to the self and to all of the factors around us becomes more possible because all of the characters around us become the agents of the self and carry a kind of dignity and value that we might not otherwise afford them including books.

你知道吗，我在想，这并不是偶然的相遇，而是当我们遇到动物时，被迫面对某种事物时所发生的事情的一种关联。

You know, I'm thinking about it's not a chance encounter but it's kind of related of what happens when we meet an animal and we are forced to contend with something.

在童话《美女与野兽》中，是年轻的女主角的父亲犯下了偷取白玫瑰的严重罪行。

So in the fairy tale Beauty and the Beast it's the young heroine's father who commits the dire crime of stealing a white rose.

而她自愿前往，与呈现为野兽的不受欢迎的心理内容共处。

And she volunteers to go and live with the unwanted psychological content that presents itself as the beast.

小红帽，哦哦，你知道的，狼来了。

Little Red Riding Hood, oh oh, you know, here comes the wolf.

必须与狼对抗，以另一种方式扭转它，而不是仅仅一次自我可以参与或不参与的短暂遭遇。

Have to contend with the wolf flipping it in a way the other way when instead of just a little encounter that ego can engage or not.

我们还有另一种极端情况：你必须与之互动。

We have the other extreme of you have to engage this.

对。

Right.

所以，有帮助的动物也可能变成贪婪的动物。

So the helpful animal can also become the rapacious animal.

这可能与我们如何应对本能有关，但有时，作为自我的使者，动物知道，贪婪是纠正自我态度所必需的。

And that may have something to do with how we're responding to instincts, but also sometimes the animal as an emissary of the self knows that being rapacious is what's required for some kind of a correction of ego attitude.

嗯，我还在想，这确实是一次偶然的相遇，但却是一次命运般的相遇，对吧？

Well, I'm also thinking, you know, it's exactly a chance encounter, but it is a fateful encounter, right?

因为她确实要求了那朵白玫瑰。

Because she has asked for the white rose.

有些事情会因为我们的选择而恰好出现在我们面前。

And there is a way that things fall across our path because of choices that we've made.

事后回想，我们会说，那本就是命中注定的。

And then in hindsight we look back and say that was what was meant to be.

就像我与那本书的故事一样。

Just like my story with the book.

我的人生从那一刻起，很难想象会走向别的方向。

I mean it's hard to imagine my life turning out differently than it has from that moment.

感觉那就是命中注定要发生的事。

It feels like that was what was fated to happen.

但如果你选择的是白玫瑰，而不是金丝锦袍，也许那就是你的命运。

But if you ask for the white rose instead of the gold brocade gown that it may be that that becomes your fate.

我正在体会这一点。

I'm sitting with that.

你知道吗，是自我做出的选择才让命运事件得以展开吗？

You know, is it is it the ego's choice that then sets the fateful event in line?

还是说，有其他东西在组织着个体的力比多？

Or is it that something else is organizing the libido of the individual?

所以总是存在这样一个可能性：我们是否把自我放在了中心？

So it's always that chance of, are we putting the ego in the center?

我们是否把真我放在了中心？

Are we putting the self in the center?

这很微妙。

It's tricky.

但我想说的是，这个童话中她想要的是那朵正确的玫瑰。

But what I would say for the fairy tale is the fact that she wants the right rose.

这是一种精神上的渴望。

That is a spiritual desire.

所以就像，就像，你的自我正通过她的选择在发声。

So it is like, it is like, you know, the self is speaking through her choice.

对。

Right.

我的意思是，这实际上并不是自我的欲望。

I mean, that actually isn't an ego desire.

姐妹们会说，我想要黄金。

Sisters are like, I want gold.

我想要珠宝。

I want jewels.

而她却说，只要一朵白玫瑰。

And she's like, just a white rose.

所以有时候命运降临到我们身上的方式，我是说，从某种层面来讲它就是这样降临的。

So the way that our fate comes to us sometimes, I mean, in a way it comes to us.

或许重点就在于——那首哈西斯诗作想表达的也是这个——无论我们做了什么、或是没做什么，命运终究会降临到我们身上。

Maybe the point is and the point of that Hasise poem is that it comes to us in spite of anything that we do or don't do.

对。

Yeah.

就好像很多事都是如此，它会以各种各样的面貌、带着强弱不一的影响力来到你面前：不管是一只会说话的蚂蚁、书架上的某本书，还是你要动身去森林深处和那只野兽一起生活，这些都是摆在你面前的际遇。

Like that a lot of that in various guises and with varying degrees of intensity it comes to us that this is what you are presented with whether it's a talking ant, a book on a bookshelf, or off you go to live with this beast in the middle of the forest.

那我们该如何应对人生中遇到的这些际遇呢？这让我想到荣格那段著名的话：任何我们未能从潜意识中识别并带入意识层面的内在事物，都会以命运的形式在外在世界与我们相遇。

What do we do with these things that cross our path which takes me to the famous Jung quote that whatever we don't recognize in ourselves that is unconscious and bring to consciousness we will meet externally as fate.

这句话非常值得深思，而这背后起作用的是什么——我觉得我们一直在围绕“自性”这个概念探讨，它是某种核心而神秘的秩序法则，总会对我们的人生产生无法抗拒的影响。

That's really worth pondering and what is operating here which I think we're circling around the concept of the self of some central mysterious ordering principle that certainly will have its way with us.

我们可以主动欣然走向它，也可以被动地被它裹挟着前进，而我们注定要去面对与之相遇的必然性。

We can go dancing toward it or be carried in on a stretcher and that we are presented with the necessity of encountering.

所以

So

我在想，如果我们把机遇视为它自己的神，机遇就是心灵的一种形式。

what I'm thinking about is if we thought of chance as its own god, that chance is a mode of psyche.

它是一种到来的方式。

It's it's a style of arrival.

它本身就是一种神明。

It's its own deity.

那么，它在打破什么呢？

And and what is it breaking?

它打破的是我们对这种受控连续性的幻想。

So it's it's breaking our own fantasy of this kind of controlled continuity.

比如，事情就会是这样。

Like, it's gonna be this way.

当机遇介入时，至少它暴露了自我对外在系统而非内在系统的依赖。

And when chance interposes, at the very least, it exposes the ego's dependence, the outer system rather than the inner system.

如果我们成为文化的奴仆，成为我们内化了的决定性路径的奴仆，那么机遇之神就会将这一切颠倒，让我们陷入自己的痛苦与困惑，以及内心发生的一切，这也迫使我们停下来反思：我有多少自我是服务于自己的议程，而没有考虑更深层的东西？

That if we become servants of the culture, servants of the determinative path that somehow we've absorbed into ourselves, that, you know, the gods of chance, you know, flip that upside down, we're then left with our own distress, confusion, all the stuff that happens inside of us, which also makes us have to pause and reflect on how much of myself did I put in service to my own agenda without consideration of far deeper things.

这让我想到所谓的吉时，有时被称为‘凯罗斯’，即垂直时间与水平时间的区别。

And and so that makes me think about, you know, the propitious moment, which sometimes is called kairos, you know, the vertical time versus the horizontal time.

凯罗斯时刻就像是我们预期之网中的一道裂口。

And that the kairos moment is a kind of tear in the fabric of our expectations.

是的。

Yeah.

这个比喻很好，我们确实有自己的计划。

It's a great image that yes we have our plans.

我想引用荣格的另一句话，他提到了偶然相遇这一概念，我认为这非常美妙地深化了你刚才所说的话，约瑟夫。

And if I can bring in another quote from Jung which does reference this idea of a chance encounter and I think amplifies what you've just said really beautifully Joseph.

直到今天，上帝仍然是我用来命名所有猛烈而鲁莽地闯入我意志之路的事物的名称。

To this day God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my willful path violently and recklessly.

所有那些打破我的主观看法、计划和意图，并改变我人生轨迹——无论好坏——的事物。

All things which upset my subjective views, plans, and intentions and change the course of my life for better or worse.

因此，这些改变我们人生的偶然相遇，荣格称之为上帝。

So these chance encounters that change our life, Jung's word for that is God.

这是一种召唤，要求你行动起来，以某种方式脱离原有位置。

And it is a summons to move and to move out of position in some fashion.

为了接纳所给予的一切，我们必须离开某些东西，这很合理，尤其是当我们过着高度决定性的生活时。

We have to depart from something in order to absorb what's been offered and and reasonably so, particularly when we lead a very deterministic life.

这可能会深深令人不安。

It can be deeply disturbing.

是的。

Yeah.

让我回到我自己的故事。

I'll just go back to my own story.

当时我在研究生院。

So here I am in graduate school.

我正在攻读国际事务硕士学位。

I'm getting a master's in international affairs.

我读了一本书，这本书与我所学、所关注、所投入，并为此付费的领域完全背道而驰。

And I read this book that is 180 degrees away from the stuff that I'm studying and that I've been interested in and that I've been invested in and I paid money for this degree.

突然间，我想：天啊，我是不是想去研究童话与梦想？

And all of a sudden I'm like, God, I think I want to go study Miss Fairy Tales and Dreams.

当然，我花了好几年才敢真正说出‘这就是我要做的事’，因为要脱离这条道路实在太难了。

And of course it took me years before I could actually say this is what I'm going to do because it was hard to move away from this.

我有这个目标，我会去追求它，这就是我现在正在做的。

I have this goal and I'm going to pursue it and this is what I'm doing.

而且要承认，也许我当初搞错了。

And to admit that I may have gotten that wrong.

是的。

Yeah.

那是一条非常合理的职业道路。

It was such a sensible career path.

那是一条稳固、成熟的职业路径，能让你成为国务卿那样的人吗？

It was a good solid, sophisticated career path that could lead you to being what secretary of state?

我不确定会不会到那一步。

I don't know about that.

但确实，我投入了时间、精力和金钱，但也许我最大的投入是我把自我认同也押在了上面。

But yeah, I had made an investment of time, energy and money, but I had also perhaps the biggest investment was I had invested my ego identity in it.

那就是我本人。

It was who I was.

世界就是这么运转的。

This is the way the world worked.

我必须像你说的那样，约瑟夫，我必须放下这一切，为两种新的可能性腾出空间，这花了我好几年时间。

And I had to I had to like you said, Joseph, I had to give that up and make room for two epistle warps a new kind of and it took years.

那句老话怎么说来着？人一旦计划，上帝就发笑？

What is that old saying that when man makes plans, God laughs?

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我很好奇，这是否是一条贯穿始终的线索：无论偶然事件是好是坏，从我们自我的角度看，正是这些被轻轻推动、被召唤，有时甚至被严重伤害的东西。

So I wonder if that is a thread running through it that regardless of what the chance encounter is for for good or ill from the perspective of our egos is that's what gets nudged, pushed, called, and sometimes catastrophically wounded.

那种偶然遭遇可能是像遭遇车祸并遭受严重伤害这样可怕的事情。

That the chance encounter is something awful like being in a car accident and being grievously injured.

我们都会遇到偶然的遭遇。

We have chance encounters.

而自我关注的是灵魂的状态。

And that the self is interested in the condition of the soul.

如果灵魂的成熟需要牺牲其他外在境遇，显然，它会毫不犹豫地这样做。

And if it has to sacrifice other outer circumstances in order to constellate the maturation of the soul, apparently, it does that with some gusto.

现在，这正是梦境分析可以融入对话的地方。

Now this is where dream work can kind of slip into the conversation.

如果我们主动亲近无意识，向它寻求指引，并反复思考它的讯息，那么无意识或许不必再揪着我们的头发、或用担架拖着我们前进，是的。

If we are courting the unconscious, if we are asking it to speak to us, and we are pondering over its messages, it may be that the unconscious doesn't need to drag us by our hair or on the stretcher Yeah.

因为那样感觉像是被听见了，也确实被听到了。

Because it does feel spoken to, and it is being heard.

无意识并不总是要求绝对的外在顺从，而且很多时候，那根本就不是正确的道路。

The unconscious may or may not always demand absolute external compliance, and and often maybe that isn't, in fact, anywhere near the right road.

但举个例子，认真对待梦境，奇怪的是，常常会改变我们所谓的运气。

But, like, for instance, taking our dreams seriously, strangely enough, often changes what we call luck.

我注意到，那些认真对待梦境的人似乎更幸运，阻碍也更少，因为自我不需要再故意伸出脚或在你面前扔香蕉皮来迫使你停下，好跟你对话。

What I noticed is that people who tend to their dreams seem luckier and less obstructed because the self doesn't need to stick a foot out or throw a banana peel in front of you to cause you to stop so it can talk to you.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你在这方面可能是对的。

I think you are probably right about that.

我在想，去列出我认识的那些曾经踩到香蕉皮摔倒的人。

I'm thinking about going through my list of people I know who've like slipped on banana peels.

然后你会发现，嗯，你可能确实说得对。

And it's like, yeah, you you know, might be right about that.

通过关注梦境，我们实际上是在为倾听蚂蚁创造空间，即使是我们这些拥有安静蚂蚁的人，不同于来自皇后区的那些蚂蚁。

That in a way of attending to our dreams, we're making that space to listen to the ants, even those of us who have quiet ants, unlike the ants from Queens.

所以，是的，我觉得你说得对。

So yeah, I think you're right.

我不会说自己从未遇到过那种奇遇。

I wouldn't say I haven't had any of those chance encounters.

自从我走上这条路以来，确实发生过几次意义非凡的偶遇。

Those really meaningful chance encounters since I started down this road.

但从某种程度来说，当我对内在世界的关注度越来越高，外部世界反倒在一定程度上变得沉静下来。

But in a way, like the more alive the attention to the inner world is, the outer world kind of gets quiet in a way.

我觉得确实是这样。

I think that's true.

荣格在晚年曾说过，我记得是这样，他不再做梦了，因为潜意识已经不需要用做梦这种方式来和他交流了，他全天都在和潜意识进行对话。

Jung said late in life, I think, that he no longer dreamed because the unconscious didn't require that as a method to communicate with him because he was in dialogue with the unconscious all day long.

所以等他的身体准备好休息的时候，潜意识会觉得自己得到了充分的倾诉，而自我在一整天里也断断续续接收了大量信息。

So by the time his body was ready to rest, the unconscious felt well fed and the ego had taken in a lot of information on and off throughout the day.

话虽如此，我觉得我们还是会遇到各种各样不妨称之为偶然事件的情况

Nevertheless, I think we do continue to have all kinds of chance events, let's say

对。

Yeah.

贯穿我们的一生。

Throughout our lives.

这只是我认为，作为地球上这段旅程的一部分，事情总会发生在我们身上。

It's it's just, I think, part of, you know, this whole journey on on Earth that things are gonna happen to us.

比如在银行遇到的那个人，或者丽莎最终买下了那本书，我们会时不时地被各种生活事件打乱节奏——财务危机、地理迁徙、突发疾病、意外失去。

And like chance encounters with man I met at the bank or Lisa finally buying the book, that we will be disrupted from time to time by all kinds of life events, financial crises, geographic moves, sudden illnesses, unexpected losses.

这样的例子数不胜数。

The list goes on and on.

我在想，某种程度上，这两者都是偶然的相遇，有时它们如此巨大、如此痛苦，但无论如何，我们都必须面对、承受、忍耐，努力理解它们，希望找到某种方式，让它们服务于我们的个体化过程，希望如此。

And I'm thinking that in a way these two are chance encounters and that sometimes you know so so big and so painful and nevertheless these are the situations we must one way or another face, endure, bear, make sense out of, hopefully find some way to have it serve our individuation, hopefully.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，我们正在寻找意义，而过一种象征性的生活，正是在于我们决定：发生在我们周围、呈现在我们面前的事件，无论它们是挑战我们，还是带给我们回报，都值得在多个层面上加以思考。

So we are searching for meaning, and that's part of living a symbolic life is that we decide that the events that appear around us before us, whether it challenges us or we find it rewarding, is worthy of consideration on multiple levels.

所以，任何人都可以做的一件事是，在一天结束时坐下来，比如准备晚餐的时候。

So one one thing anybody could do is to sit down at the end of the day, you know, while you're preparing dinner.

想想至少一件让你感到惊讶的事情。

And you think about at least one thing that surprised you.

就想想那天让你感到惊讶的一件事。

Just one thing that surprised you that day.

然后问问自己：如果我梦到了这件事，我会如何解读这个梦？

And then to ask yourself, if I dreamed that, how would I interpret that dream?

这是一种可能让我们摆脱刻板字面意义的方式，让事情呈现出多种可能的含义。

And that's that is one way of possibly freeing ourselves up from the kind of literalistic context and allowing it to take on a number of different possible meanings.

我喜欢这个。

I like that.

我非常喜欢这个。

I like that a lot.

这就像是获得一些技巧，去接纳你遇到的会说话的动物。

It's like tips tips for tips for being receptive to the talking animals that you meet.

当然。

Absolutely.

让我们谈谈选择过一种象征性生活、将生活中的事件视为自我有意义的介入时，可能会面临的一些危险。

Let's talk a little bit about some of the dangers, so to speak, of deciding to live a symbolic life, to take the events of our life as meaningful interventions of the self.

所以，当人们被无意识淹没并开始进入精神病状态时，他们会经历一种被称为‘关系妄想’的现象，嗯。

So sometimes when people are flooded by the unconscious and they begin to move into a psychotic state, they will experience something called ideas of reference, Mhmm.

他们开车时看着车牌，发誓车牌上的序列、颜色、字母和数字都在对他们说话。

Where they're driving down the road and they're looking at license plates, and they're they swear that the license plates, the sequences, the colors, the letters, the numbers are talking to them.

这些车牌充满了深刻的含义。

They're full of profound meaning.

但不幸的是，事实并非如此。

And, unfortunately, that does not turn out to be so.

因此，我们必须对某些事件伴随的强烈情感保持一定的清醒。

So we have to have a certain kind of sobriety around the intensity of feeling that sometimes accompanies an event.

一个事件要改变人生，并不需要充满强烈的情感。

And for an event to be life changing, it doesn't have to be saturated with intensity.

没错。

That's right.

我的意思是，你走进那家书店，突然觉得这本书在困扰着你，或者搞不懂怎么回事。

I mean, you went into that bookstore and you're like, this book's haunting me or what the heck.

我会买下它。

I'll I'll buy it.

我的意思是，你看到那本书时并没有开始出汗，因为那其实是一个逐渐展开的过程，就像看着指南针，只是轻轻转动了两度。

I mean, you didn't start sweating when you saw the book that it was actually an unfolding process much like, you know, looking at a compass and just moving it two degrees in another direction.

你知道吗，十年后，你竟然到了霍博肯，而你原本的目标是巴黎。

You know, ten years later, you're going to wind up in Hoboken and you were shooting for Paris.

而这本身就是一种炼狱般的体验。

And that's its own, you know, purgatorial.

我们能换一下吗？

Can we switch that?

所以我最终到了巴黎，而我原本的目标是霍博肯。

So I wind up in Paris and I was shooting for Hoboken.

我的意思是，我对霍博肯没什么意见。

I mean nothing against Hoboken.

我知道那是个很棒的地方，但没错，你说得对，约瑟夫。

I know it's a lovely place, but but yeah, no, you're you're right, Joseph.

而且也许再进一步说你的观点，没错，买这本书本身并没有让我觉得天降神谕。

And maybe just to again, of extend your point a bit like, yeah, it wasn't the buying of the book itself wasn't like, oh my God, the clouds parted.

真正重要的是读这本书时发生的事。

Actually, what happened that was so important was reading the book.

没错。

Right.

然后是我之后持续的学习。

And then the continued study I did.

后来我回过头一看，才意识到，哇，真的如此。

And then I looked back and I was like, oh, wow.

当时，我并没有觉得这件事有这么重大的意义。

You know, at the time, it didn't feel that saturated with significance.

只是觉得，哦，对，该买这本书。

It was just like, oh, yeah, should buy that book.

对。

Yeah.

有时候，那些改变人生的关键时刻到来时，只会换来一声嘟囔。

Sometimes a fateful moment is met with a groan.

行吧。

Fine.

行吧。

Fine.

只要你踏出了那一步转向，你随身包里装了什么都不重要，重要的是你转向了那一步。

And it doesn't it doesn't matter what you've got in your bag as you're taking that little turn to the side as long as you take the turn.

对。

Mhmm.

所以你大可抱怨。

So you can groan.

你也可以哀叹。

You can bemoan.

你也可以脾气暴躁。

You can be crabby.

也许你会感到兴奋。

Maybe you'll be thrilled.

但我们内心能否保持开放？

But can something inside of us be open?

对误导保持开放。

Be open to the misdirection.

我认为，我不知道是冯·弗朗斯还是芭芭拉·汉娜提到过，当我们开始将生活视为一个深刻而有意义的过程，并且这个过程正在对我们说话时，应当培养一种冒险精神？

And I think I don't know if it's Von Frans or Barbara Hannah who talks about cultivating a spirit of adventure when we begin to hold life as a profound and meaningful process that is speaking to us?

我认为我们真正想关注的是，我一直在思考那些重大的事件，但我们更应聚焦于那些更小、更安静的时刻：我们能否留心注意？

I think what we're really wanting to focus on is I've been thinking about, you know, huge events, but we're focusing on the smaller quieter ones of can we pay attention?

我们能否选择去留心注意？

Can we choose to pay attention?

我们能否察觉到？

Can we notice?

因为那样我们就有了可以反思的东西。

Because then we have something where we can reflect.

我们可以赋予意义，可以进行辨别和判断的过程。

We can make meaning, we can have a process of discernment.

就像通过梦境传递给我们的内容一样，最终由自我来决定：不，我不买这本书。

And and as with the content that comes to us through dreams, it will then be up to ego to really decide, no, I'm not buying this book.

我已经见过好几次了。

I've seen it a number of times.

我注意到了。

I have noticed it.

我考虑过。

I've considered it.

我读了前面几页。

I've read the first couple of pages.

真的不适合我，这和直接忽略或武断地排除它非常不同。

Really just not for me, which is very different from just brushing it off or ruling it out.

因此，我处于一个不同的项目中。

Ipso facto, I'm in a different program.

这件事我做不到，因为我觉得这会让它变得可能性大得多。

This I can't do it because I think this makes it so much more possible.

如果你能只是注意到，然后加以反思。

If you could just notice and then reflect on it.

让它多停留一会儿。

Let it stick around for a while.

然后决定，我要不要对它采取行动？

And and then decide, am I going to do something with this?

我要不要跟进，还是不跟进？

Am I not follow through or not?

我认为我们真正讨论的是觉察。

That's what I think we're really talking about is noticing.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

我非常喜欢你所说的，约瑟夫，关于对某些事情感到惊讶

And I loved what you said, Joseph, about being surprised of like what

是的

Yeah.

那是什么？

What was that?

算了，忘了吧。

Oh, forget it.

你知道，我得去赶公交车了。

You know, I gotta catch the bus.

然后，当你在做晚饭的时候，想想看，哇，今天在公交站真是让人惊讶。

And then, you know, when you're making dinner, think about like, woah, that was that was surprising at the bus stop today.

这其实关乎一种内在的过程，给某些东西一点空间，让它在我们的头脑、身体和灵魂中自由流动。

That it's really about an inner process of giving something a little space to move around in our heads, our bodies, our souls.

太多东西就这样匆匆溜走了。

So much which just just goes by.

生活过得太快了，我不禁想，第一步是不是只是去听那个会说话的动物。

Life goes so fast that I wonder if the first step is just hear the talking animal.

你能听到蚂蚁的声音吗？

Can you hear the ant?

别管它说的是不是有道理。

Never mind whether what it says makes sense or not.

这些你可以以后再弄清楚。

You can figure that out later.

首要任务是至少接收这条信息。

Job one is at least take in the message.

这里有个关于一次极其重要的决定性邂逅的精彩故事。

So here's a great story of a really important determinative chance encounter.

这是《亲爱的德鲁贝尔》中讲述的玛丽·路易丝·邦弗兰兹第一次遇见荣格的故事。

This is the story told in Dear Droubert about the first time that Marie Louise Bonfranze met Jung.

我想她当时19岁，而他58岁。

So I think she was 19 and he was 58.

在大学里，大多数学生都避着那个社交笨拙的女孩，她从不犹豫，只要觉得自己比教授更懂某个学科，就会立刻指正他们。

So at the university, most students steered clear of the socially awkward girl who did not hesitate to use her formidable knowledge to correct her professors when she thought she knew more about a subject than they did.

这就是冯·弗朗西斯。

So this is Von France.

她那犀利的智慧和无所畏惧的直言引起了保罗·内夫的注意，他是托尼·沃尔夫的侄子。

Her ferocious intelligence and fearless outspokenness came to the attention of Paul Neff, Tony Wolf's nephew.

托尼担心荣格对炼金术研究的涉足，以及他似乎背离了正统的医学和临床心理学。

Tony was worried about Jung's foray into alchemical studies and his seeming abandonment of orthodox medical and clinical psychology.

她想让他接触大学学生课余时热衷讨论的最新潮流话题。

She wanted to expose him to the latest trendiest topics in that university students talked about when they were outside the classroom.

于是她让侄子留意那些有趣的年轻人，把他们介绍给荣格。

So she asked her nephew to be on the lookout for interesting young people who should be introduced to Jung.

托尼希望，这些年轻人的思想和观点能足够吸引荣格，让他去追随他们，而不是她认为代表玄学的炼金术研究。

Tony hoped that their thoughts and opinions might interest Jung enough that he would pursue them rather than the esoteric scholarship she believed alchemy represented.

顺便说一句，这事儿搞砸了。

This backfires, by the way.

巴勃罗是一位很受欢迎的学生，朋友遍布多个院系。

Pablo was a popular student with friends in many different departments.

于是托尼邀请他带自己认识的最聪明、最有趣的学生来博林根吃周日午餐。

So Tony invited him to bring the most intelligent and amusing students he knew to Bollingen for Sunday lunch.

尽管玛丽·路易丝·邦弗兰兹并不在他们的朋友圈中，实际上她几乎没人喜欢，因为她的权威举止让同龄人感到不适。

Although Marie Louise Bonfranze was not among his friends, nor was she anyone's friends actually as her authoritative behavior was so off putting to her contemporaries.

巴勃罗·内夫邀请了她，因为他觉得她尖锐的才华和渊博的知识会让荣格感到有趣。

Pablo Neff invited her because he thought her strident brilliance and vast knowledge would amuse Jung.

因此，她成了八到十名年轻男性中唯一的女性。

Thus, she became the only woman in a group of eight or 10 young men.

因为邦弗兰兹正在从脚踝骨折中恢复。

Because Bon Frans was recovering from a broken ankle.

我要读这一段，因为实在太有趣了。

I'm going to read this part because it's just fun.

托尼·沃尔夫开着她那辆黑色大宝马轿车到火车站接他们。

Tony Wolf met them at the train station in her big black BMW sedan.

这辆车是她的第一辆汽车，她买车是为了回应荣格1929年入手的那辆红色克莱斯勒敞篷车——荣格总把那辆车叫做“红宝贝”，每周三下午去沃尔夫家的时候，都会把它停在自由街上最显眼的位置。

It was her first car bought in response to Jung's 1929 purchase of a red Chrysler convertible that he always called the red darling and parked prominently on the Freestrasse every Wednesday afternoon when he visited the Wolf House.

艾玛也不甘落后，买了一辆灰色道奇轿车。

Not wanting to be excluded, Emma brought bought a gray Dodge sedan.

库斯纳赫特庄园的杂工兼总管家穆勒教这三个人学会了开车。

All three were taught to drive by Mueller, the handyman and general factotum of the Kuznacht property.

好的。

Okay.

所以呢，她去火车站接了他们。

So anyway, she picks them up from the train station.

事情就是这样开始的。

And there we go.

当托尼载着冯·弗朗茨和其他学生抵达塔楼时，荣格突然从灌木丛里冒出来迎接他们——他身形高大，穿着脏衬衫和脏裤子，戴着一副金框眼镜。

When Tony arrived at the tower with Von Frans and the other students, Jung greeted them by popping up suddenly out of the bushes, an enormous man with a dirty shirt, dirty trousers, and gold rimmed spectacles.

这段回忆是冯·弗朗茨讲述的。

This is Von Franz recalling it.

瘦小的冯·弗朗茨被高大的荣格所震慑。

The tiny Von Franz was overwhelmed by the towering Jung.

多年后，她回忆起自己如何对他产生了强烈的移情和少女般的迷恋。

And many years later, she recalled how she fell for him in a terrific transference and a big school girl crush.

他告诉学生们自己还没做完午饭，然后打发年轻男人们去湖边，让冯·弗朗茨留在厨房帮他切蔬菜。

He told the students he had not finished cooking lunch, then send the young men down to the lake and ask Von Franz to sit in the kitchen and help him chop vegetables.

冯·弗朗茨没有提到托尼在哪里，只回忆起自己多么被荣格的故事吸引，以至于切到了手指，也切到了黄瓜。

Von Franz made no mention of where Tony was, but only recounts how she was so enthralled by Jung stories that she sliced her finger as well as a cucumber.

荣格一边帮她包扎伤口，一边讲述一位女病人坚信自己住在月球上的故事。

Jung helped her bind it all the while talking about a female patient who believed she lived on the moon.

当时身为共产主义唯物无神论者的冯·弗朗茨驳斥了这种妄想，认为月球不过是个死寂的卫星，还没人去过那里。

Von Franz, who was then a communist material atheist, dismissed the delusion because the moon was only a dead satellite and nobody's been up there yet.

荣格只是微笑着，又倒了些勃艮第葡萄酒。

Jung only smiled and poured more burgundy wine.

这顿午餐非常成功，学生们一直留下来喝酒聊天，直到午夜过后很久。

The lunch was so successful that the students remained to drink and talk until well after midnight.

直到那时，冯·弗朗茨才明白，荣格讲述那个住在月球上的女人的故事，是为了说明心理上发生的事情才是真实的，而外在发生的事情只是次要的。

Only then did Von Franz realize that Jung meant his anecdote about the woman on the moon to illustrate that what happens psychically is real and what happens outwardly is only secondary.

她以为自己需要十年才能消化那天这位老人所说的话。

She thought it would take her ten years to digest what this old man talked about that day.

在后来的岁月里，她喜欢补充说，其实并没有花十年。

In years to come, she liked to add that it had not taken ten years.

而是耗尽了她的一生。

It had taken all her life.

在准备午餐时，冯·弗朗茨告诉荣格，她尚未决定是专攻数学、医学，还是古典语言。

As they prepared the lunch, Von France told Jung she was undecided about whether to specialize in mathematics, medicine, or classical languages.

荣格一见到她，就知道她拥有他需要加以利用的某种特殊智慧。

Jung knew as soon as he met her that she had a particular kind of intelligence he needed to put to work for him.

有趣的是，他并没有像他坚持要求所有想实践他理论的男性那样，指导她去学习医学。

Interestingly, he did not direct her to study medicine as he insisted all the men who wanted to practice his theory should do.

他遵循了自己对待女性的一贯模式，让她去研究一个他需要研究协助的具体领域。

He followed his usual pattern with women and set her to investigate a specific area where he needed research assistance.

在这种情况下，是古典语言和文学。

In this case, classical languages and literature.

尽管她的教授们认可她的专业，但她必须对他们保密，她选择这一方向的原因是她决心成为荣格的主要合作者。

Although her professors approved of her major, she had to keep it secret from them that the reason she chose this concentration was because she was determined to forge a career as Jung's chief associate.

她确实做到了。

Which she did.

她是王储。

She was the crown princess.

是的。

Yes.

她确实是。

She was.

而且毫无疑问，她是他的学术遗产的继承者。

And the inheritor of his corpus for sure.

对。

Yeah.

所以她答应了共进午餐。

So she says yes to a lunch.

什么？搞什么鬼？

What what the heck?

免费的食物？

Some free food?

她的生活因此改变了。

And her life changes.

没错。

Right.

我还想说，也许在我们转到她的梦境之前，先说说重点：她明白了荣格所说的‘月亮’对这个自以为生活在月球上的女人意味着什么。

I also like as, you know, maybe the bottom line before we switch to a dream that she gets what Jung meant by the moon for this woman who thought she lived on the moon.

那是真实的。

It was real.

是的。

Yes.

冯·法国说不。

And Von France says, no.

不。

No.

不。

No.

月亮就在天上的那里。

The moon is up there in the sky.

她突然意识到，心理现实是绝对真实的。

And she gets all of a sudden that psychic reality is absolutely real.

我认为这就是我们今天以及整个讨论中一直在谈的：内在发生的事情是真正真实的。

And I think that's what we've been talking about today and all throughout this is what happens inside is really real.

所以如果你遇到会说话的动物，至少要听听。

So if you meet a talking animal, at least listen.

是的。

Yes.

我想再抛出一个小小的偶然相遇的例子，那就是‘灵光一现’的概念。

I'd like to just throw one more little eight chance encounter out, which is the idea of the bright idea.

而这正是C。

And this is something that C.

A。

A.

迈耶非常深入思考过的问题。

Meyer really thought a lot about.

你知道，在德语中，这是一种与某种更高智慧的偶然相遇。

You know, in German, it's the which is this kind of chance encounter with some greater intelligence.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

它表现为一种明亮、耀眼的灵感，从天而降，完整、外来、并非由自我制造，随时可用。

And it shows up as a as a luminous, brilliant idea that just falls into us from above, finished, foreign, not ego manufactured, ready to go.

人们可以谈论它。

People can talk about it.

它会流动。

It flows.

它就像一口泉，自己就开始涌动了。

It's like a spring that just starts moving all on its own.

特别是直觉型的人，常常能抓住一条线索，引导他们找到这个灵感，却说不清它来自何处。

And particularly intuitive types can often find a thread that leads them to this bright idea which they can't figure out where it came from.

而迈耶的警示是：我们该如何对待这个落入我们心中的明亮星辰？

And his caution, Meyer, is how should we relate to the to the bright star that falls into us?

迈耶和荣格都谈到过那些像鸟儿一样突然落在脑海中的想法，他必须在它们飞走之前记录下来。

And Meyer, Jung also talks about thoughts that just land in his mind like birds, and he has to record them before they fly away.

避免将本不属于自己的东西据为己有的傲慢，就是再次尊重这次相遇、尊重无意识、尊重源头，而不是将它据为己有。

To avoid the hubris of laying claim to something that is not ours is to, again, honor the encounter, honor the unconscious, honor the source instead of arrogating it to ourselves.

这种自我与自性之间谦逊的关系，从某种意义上说，更有可能让另一个星光熠熠的灵感再次降临，因为你以尊重和正确的态度对待了它。

And that kind of humble relationship between the ego and the self, in a sense, makes it more likely that another star filled idea will drop because you handled it, intended it respectfully and with the right attitude.

太棒了。

That's great.

我非常喜欢这一点。

And I love that.

带着感恩、谦逊和开放的心态。

And with gratitude and humility and openness.

所以我们实际上有一段大约两分钟的片段，是弗朗茨讲述这个故事的。

So we actually have a like about a two minute clip of Franz relating this story.

这段内容来自纪录片《心灵之事》。

And this is from the documentary film A Matter of Heart.

这就是那段视频。

And so here that is.

我18岁的时候遇见了他。

I met him when I was 18.

在1834年，我开始接受他的分析。

And I began in the year 1834, I began analysis with him.

我们去了那座塔，突然从灌木丛中走出来，大家站在那儿，像往常一样显得有些尴尬，不知道接下来会发生什么。

We went out there to the tower, and out of the bushes suddenly we were standing around kind of awkwardly as one does, not knowing what was going to happen.

然后从灌木丛中走出一位男士，我对他印象深刻。

And then out of the bushes came a man, and I was deeply impressed by him.

我自然以为他是麦土撒拉，因为当你18岁的时候，你会觉得58岁的人该进坟墓了。

I thought naturally he was a Methuselah because when you are 18 you think a 58 year old is ready for the cemetery.

他讲了那个故事，你可以在回忆录里读到，关于一个女孩去了月球，必须与一个恶魔搏斗，最后黑恶魔抓住了她。

He told that story which you can read in the memories about this girl who was on the moon and had to fight a demon and the black demon got her.

他装作或者以一种方式讲述，仿佛那个女孩真的去过月球，事情真的发生过。

And he pretended he or he told it in a way as if she really had been on the moon and it had happened.

我从小接受的是理性主义教育，所以我不满地反驳说：但她只是想象自己在月球上，或者只是做了个梦，她根本没去过月球。

And I was very rationalistically trained from school so I said indignantly but she imagined to be on the moon or she dreamt it but she wasn't on the moon.

他认真地看着我，说：是的，她确实去了月球。

And he looked at me earnestly and said, yes, she was on the moon.

我至今仍记得，当时我望着那片湖水，心想：要么这个人疯了，要么我太笨，完全不懂他话里的意思。

I still remember looking over the lake there and thinking, and either this man is crazy or I am too stupid to understand what he means.

然后我突然明白了，他的意思是，心理上发生的事才是真正的现实。

And then suddenly it dawned on me, he means that what happens psychically is the real reality.

而另一个月亮，那个围绕地球运转的岩石荒漠，只是幻象或伪现实。

And this other moon, this stony desert which goes around the earth, that's illusion or that's only pseudo reality.

这对我产生了极其深刻的影响。

And that hit me tremendously deeply.

那天晚上，他给了我们很多勃艮第葡萄酒，我醉醺醺地上床时想，你要花十年才能消化今天所经历的一切。

When I called rather drunk into bed because he gave us a lot of burgundy that evening I thought it will take you ten years to digest what you experience today.

今天的做梦者是一位41岁的男性，职业是纪录片导演和教育工作者。

Today's dreamer is a 41 year old male who works as a documentary filmmaker and educator.

他将这个梦命名为《与会说话的驴子搏斗》。

He titles this dream wrestling with a talking donkey.

我正住在父母家的房间里。

I was in a room living in my parents' house.

房间里只有一台开着的电视，和一张大床。

In the room, there was only a TV that was on in a big bed.

有那么一刻，一头驴走了进来，我记得我曾经有一头驴。

At some point, a donkey walks in, and I remember that I had a donkey.

这头驴开始说话了，我也记得它是一头会说话的驴。

And this donkey started to talk, which I also remember he was a donkey that could talk.

起初，它非常友好、机智又迷人，我很享受和它聊天。

At first, he was very friendly and witty and charming, and I enjoyed talking with him.

但我能感觉到，它那阴险的笑容背后藏着什么目的。

But I could tell that he had an agenda hidden behind a sinister smile.

它想要某种东西，我能感觉到。

There was something he wanted, I could tell.

我们聊了一会儿，最后我爬上了床。

We talked for a while, and eventually I climbed in bed.

它也想上床，于是我们一起爬了上去。

He wanted to be in bed too, so we climbed up to the bed.

当我快要睡着时，它像猫一样在床里翻滚，我担心它会用蹄子踢到我。

As I was falling asleep, he started rolling around like a cat, and I was worried that he would hit me with his hooves.

于是我把他推到床边，告诉他要待在自己那边。

So I pushed him over the side, and I told him to stay on his side of the bed.

但他继续翻来滚去，讲笑话，玩闹不停，完全不理我的要求。

But he kept rolling around, making jokes, being playful, and ignoring what I was asking.

于是我告诉他，如果他不停下来，我就把他扔到地板上，或者把他关进浴室。

Then I told him if he didn't stop, he was gonna go on the floor, or I was gonna put him in the bathroom.

但到了这个时候，他变得更加具有攻击性了。

Well, at this point, he became more aggressive.

他开始朝我这边滚过来，最后我们竟然扭打起来。

He started rolling closer to me, and eventually, we started wrestling.

我试图抓住他的前腿，同时按住他的头，防止他咬我或踢我。

I was trying to hold his front legs and also hold his head so that he could bite me or hit me.

但他的后腿还自由着能踢我，所以要控制住他变得非常困难。

But I had his rear legs free to kick me, so I became very it became very hard to contain him.

最后，我用手捂住他的嘴，以免他咬到我。

Eventually, I put my hands on his mouth so he wouldn't bite me.

我抓着他的下巴，这样也能更好地控制他的身体。

I was holding his jaw, and this way I could also control his body a little more effectively.

我用尽了全身力气，几乎才勉强把他压住。

I was using all my strength, and I could barely hold him off.

最终我们从床上滚了下来，继续在地板上扭打。

Eventually, we rolled off the bed and we continued to wrestle on the floor.

我用尽了全身力气，却惊讶地发现他根本没怎么挣扎。

I was using all my strength, and I was impressed to see he wasn't struggling at all.

事实上，他玩得很开心。

In fact, he was enjoying the match.

打斗时，我对那头驴说：明天早上我就给你上笼头，这样就能更好地控制你了。

While wrestling, I told the donkey, tomorrow morning, gonna get a bridle so I can have better control of you.

我想喊得足够大声，好让爸爸进来帮我制服他，但他始终没进来。

I wanted to be loud enough so my dad would come into the room and help me fight him off, but he never came in.

相反，我父母在外面大声放着音乐。

Instead, my parents played music loudly outside the room.

我猜他们是想用音乐声盖过我房间里的噪音。

I'm guessing with the intention of drowning out this noise from my room.

那是基督教音乐，歌中的副歌是：耶稣基督，赐我力量。

It was Christian music, and the chorus in the song was Jesus Christ, give me strength.

这首歌的歌词变得非常清晰。

The words of this song became very clear.

当我专注于歌词时，我从梦中惊醒，全身仍保持着梦中那个姿势紧绷着。

And as I focused on the lyrics, I woke up from the dream with my entire body still clenched in the position I had been in the dream.

作为背景，他写道：我目前正难以找到工作。

For context, he writes, I'm currently struggling to find work.

我处于人才浪费的状态。

I'm underemployed.

我正在做的某些项目因难以筹集资金完成而暂停了。

Some of the projects I've been working on are paused as I struggle to find funding to complete them.

他在梦中的主要感受。

His main feelings in the dream.

虽然这个梦一开始是快乐而有趣的，但很快就变得可怕，几乎像一场噩梦。

While it started as a joyful and fun dream, it quickly became scary, almost like a nightmare.

他补充说，我是在一个非常严格且暴力的基督教家庭中长大的。

And he adds, I grew up in a very strict and violent Christian household.

就在过去五到六年里，我重新发现了自己的精神实践，现在对父母的宗教信仰有了更多的同理心。

It's within the last five to six years that I've rediscovered my own spiritual practice and now have more empathy towards my parents' religious beliefs.

我把这头驴看作是坚定、勤劳的象征。

I see the donkey as a steadfast, hardworking symbol.

我认为他是出于好意，但我很难放下。

I think he means well, but I'm struggling to surrender.

我真的很享受这段旅程。

I really enjoyed this journey.

我

I

知道。

know.

这太棒了。

It's so great.

和他体内那个调皮捣蛋的驴子抗争，真的是一种独特的体验。

It's really something struggling with that with that sassy cheeky donkey inside of him.

嗯，我们可以从头开始，注意到故事发生在他的父母家。

Well, I mean, we could start at the top and note that it takes place in his parents' house.

这很有趣，因为场景实际上发生在客厅，但那里有一张大床。

And it's interesting because it actually takes place in the living room, but there's a big bed.

所以有趣的是，场景设在客厅而不是卧室。

So interesting that it's a living room and not a bedroom.

让我印象深刻的一点是，当梦中的自我对驴子的惩罚加剧时，驴子也变得更具攻击性。

One of the things that struck me is that when the dream ego gets a little bit more punishing toward the donkey, then the donkey gets more aggressive toward him.

驴子在那儿打滚，讲笑话，表现得很顽皮。

So donkey is rolling around making jokes, being playful.

然后梦中的自我说，我告诉过他，如果他不停止做那些事，我就把他放到浴室的地板上。

And then the dream ego says, I told him if he didn't stop what he was doing, I was going to put him on the floor in the bathroom.

我必须说，我想知道那只驴讲的笑话是什么。

I just have to say, I want to know the joke that the donkey told.

我知道。

I know.

我完全被这个想法占据了。

I'm totally possessed by that idea.

是的。

Yeah.

驴的笑话。

The donkey jokes.

驴的笑话。

Donkey jokes.

听众可以把它们写在评论里。

Listeners can put them in the comments.

求求了。

Please.

但当梦中的自我说‘我要把你关进卫生间’时，那头驴就变得更具攻击性了，接着两人就扭打了起来。

But when the Dream ego says, I'm going put you in the bathroom, then the donkey becomes more aggressive and they start wrestling.

这其中的缘由正好和我们之前一直在讨论的内容对上了。

So there's something about and it goes to what we've been talking about.

就好比你越是抗拒潜意识对你的诉求，潜意识就会用越发强势的姿态向你施压。

Like the more you resist what the unconscious wants from you, the more aggressively the unconscious comes at you.

我现在和你们所有人的处境一模一样。

I'm in exactly the same place that you all are.

然后我们所有人，你懂的，我当时就想，哇这简直像童话一样，太有意思了。

And we were all you know, I thought, oh, this is like a fairy tale and this is so delightful.

你懂的，居然出现了一头会说话的驴。

You know, that here's the talking donkey.

我先是想起自己以前养过一头驴，接着才反应过来，对哦，是这回事。

Remember I had a donkey and then I remembered, oh yeah, that's right.

所以我就觉得，哇太棒了。

So it's like, oh great.

一切都很好。

Everything's wonderful.

但他脸上带着一丝阴险的微笑，在他机智、友好、迷人的外表背后，藏着一抹阴险的笑意。

But it's he has a somewhat sinister smile and behind his witty friendly charming nature there's a somewhat sinister smile.

然后我想起和一个四岁小孩在一起的情景，他想爬到你床上来。

And then I think about you know being with a little kid like a four year old who wants to climb in bed with you.

但他又不想睡觉。

And then he doesn't want to go to sleep.

他讲着四岁孩子才会懂的笑话，踢着被子，玩得不亦乐乎。

And he's telling four year old jokes and he's kicking the covers and having a great time.

而你只想说：别闹了，快睡觉吧，可这孩子实在太调皮了。

And all you want is to just say, you know, pipe down, go to sleep, but the kid is really rambunctious.

这时，正如你所说的，情况变得更激烈了，梦境中的自我决心扮演父母的角色，试图让这匹顽劣的驴子屈服于自己的意志。

At which point exactly what you're saying, you know, more aggressive and then the contest is on with our dream ego determined to be in the parental role and bring this obstreperous donkey to bend to to his will.

但你知道，另一面是，这依然非常有趣。

But you know the other part is it's also still remains very funny.

你懂的，那只驴子能用真蹄子踢人，但我伸手捂住了他的嘴，之后我们就扭打在地上了。

You know his real legs can kick him but I put my hands on his mouth and all the rest of it and then they wind up wrestling on the floor.

然后他说，那只驴子当时根本没有在挣扎。

And then he says that he wasn't the donkey wasn't struggling.

他还很享受这场较量呢。

He was enjoying the match.

是的。

Yes.

那小家伙正乐在其中呢。

The donkey's enjoying it.

做梦的人说整件事后来变得像噩梦一样。

The dreamer says it becomes nightmarish.

那头驴和梦中的自我，一开始状态都差不多，觉得这件事还有点好笑、有点有意思。

The donkey and the ego, the dream ego start off in more or less the same place where there's something kind of funny and charming about this.

那头驴愣是一动不动。

The donkey doesn't move.

但梦中的自我确实变了，这很有趣。

The dream ego does though, which is interesting.

你知道吗，在梦的这一部分结束时，我想象这些场景：在搏斗中，我告诉那头驴，它们俩都很享受。

You know, at the end of this part of the dream, I think of these things in scenes that while wrestling, I told the donkey they're both enjoying it.

那头驴反正很享受。

The donkey is anyway.

我们的梦中自我说：你知道吗？

And our dream ego says, you know what?

明天早上，我要去弄一副缰绳。

Tomorrow morning, I'm getting a bridle.

我就用这个来控制你。

And that's how I'm going to control you.

然后场景就切换了。

And then it switches.

我想喊得足够大声，好让爸爸进来帮我把他赶走，但他从来都没进来。

I wanted to be loud enough so my dad would come into the room and help me fight him off but he never came in.

相反，父母的内在情结在大声播放音乐，以便他们不必知道发生了什么。

Instead the parents the parental complex is playing loud music so that they don't have to know what's going on.

而且放的是基督教音乐，合唱部分唱着：耶稣基督，赐予我力量。

And it's Christian music The chorus is Jesus Christ give me strength.

我们的梦中自我专注于歌词，以及他在梦中的身体姿态。

Our dream ego focuses on the lyrics with his body and the position in the dream.

我当时在想，基督教音乐，我们该如何理解这个？

And I was thinking, Christian music, what do we make of that?

然后他在上下文中告诉我们。

And then he tells us in the context.

我是在一个非常严格且暴力的基督教家庭中长大的。

I grew up in a very strict and violent Christian household.

所以我想要把这一点带入到前面那个梦的部分，也就是他对驴子关系的矛盾本质。

So I'm wanting to import that into this the you know the whole previous part of the dream of the ambivalent nature of his relationship with the donkey.

与他内心那部分驴子的关系。

With the donkey part of him.

你看他提到的这个关联，我觉得挺恰当也挺靠谱的——驴子本身就是一种沉稳勤恳的动物。

You know he says and I think this is a good association or solid one is that you know the donkey is a very kind of solid hardworking kind of animal.

这让我想到，如果你内心也有这么一头‘驴子’，那其实是件很棒的事，要是你面前摆着一份艰巨棘手的工作，它肯定能帮上大忙。

It makes me think if you had an inner donkey, that would be a pretty good thing to have because it would serve you well if you had a big difficult job in front of you.

就是靠着那股驴子的韧劲，闷头一步步扛过去。

That sort of donkey energy that you could just donkey through it.

一步接一步地不停往前迈进就好。

You could just keep on putting one foot in front of the other.

但他和自己内心那头驴之间的关系本没必要发展到充满矛盾的地步，可现在却变成了这样。

But there's something about his relationship with his own inner donkey that it becomes contentious when I don't think it actually needs to be.

然后他还希望能从这种状态里被父母情结拯救出来。

And then he wants to get rescued from that by the parental complexes.

可事实并不会如他所愿。

But that's not what's going to happen.

他得学着自己处理好和内心那头驴的关系。

He needs to work on his own relationship with his inner donkey.

我认为这个梦在说，如果他能的话，这会是一个真正的资源。

And I think that the dream is saying that that it could be a real resource if he could.

他在某个地方用了‘顺从’这个词。

And he uses this word somewhere surrender.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

我还想指出，驴子的毛病就是不停地打转、讲笑话。

And the thing I also want to point out that the donkey's infraction is keeps rolling around making jokes.

够了，别再这样了。

Enough of that.

这是一个觉得自己工作不饱和的人，他必须做出一些决定。

And this is a person who feels like he's underemployed, and he he's gotta make some decisions.

他得认真起来。

He's gotta buckle down.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这头驴有点像一个小男孩。

So the donkey is a bit like a puer.

他身上有一种年轻的气息，总是打滚、像你捕捉到的德布那样搞笑、爱讲笑话、善于娱乐。

There's something young about him rolling around just as you caught Deb and being funny and a jokester and entertaining.

因此我们很容易认为，嗯，那就是他。

And so we could easily think that, you know, that's that's him.

这可能非常符合他处世的方式。

That may be very much his style of being in the world.

而现在他承受着巨大压力，想要变得更加负责任，他正在召唤年长者形象来帮助他，以便自己能变得更加严谨和有条理。

And now that he's under a lot of stress and he's looking to be more responsibly, he's beckoning to the senex to kind of come to him so that he can be more rigorous and and planned.

但他身上那部分驴子般的特质根本不愿意被套上枷锁去配合他那严谨的计划。

And that donkey part of him just isn't interested in being harnessed to his rigorous plan.

我注意到的另一件事是，究竟谁在做决定，这让我非常感兴趣。

The other thing that I noticed is who's making what decision is really interesting to me.

我们聊了很久，最后我上了床。

We talked for a while, and eventually, I climbed into bed.

他也想上床，于是就爬了上来。

He wanted to be in bed too, so he climbed up to the bed.

我其实没邀请他上来。

So didn't invite him.

现在那头驴自顾自地做着它常做的事——就是到处打滚那套，我觉得这特别有意思，而且那头驴根本不理他。

Now the donkey's autonomously kind of doing the stuff he does, which I think is really great, rolling around, and the donkey is ignoring him.

所以我特别乐意聊聊：要是别人无视你，你会是什么感受？

So I would have fun talking about how do you feel when people ignore you?

当你提出诉求、渴求某些事物，可这些东西却偏偏无法如愿到手时，你最终会纠结些什么？又会涌现出怎样的情绪冲动？

When you ask things, beckon for things, and they just they don't fall into your hands, what do you wind up wrestling with and the aggression that comes forward?

还有一件事也很有意思。

The other thing is interesting.

他开始往我身边滚过来，最后我们就扭打到了一起。

He started rolling closer to me, and eventually we started wrestling.

不过我挺好奇的。

But I'm curious.

是谁先开始摔跤的？

Who is the one who started wrestling?

是谁先抓住谁来摔跤的？

Who grabbed who to wrestle around?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道这个梦让我想起了哪个童话吗？

You know what this dream reminds me of as a fairy tale?

《青蛙王子》：一个小女孩在池塘边玩她的金球，结果球掉进了水里。

The frog prince Where the little girl is playing by the pond with her golden ball and she drops it in the pond.

青蛙把球捞上来，说：‘如果我帮你把球拿回来，我想去宫殿，和你一起吃饭。’

The frog brings it up and says, if I if I get your ball for you, I wanna come to the palace and and eat off your plate.

我想做你的伙伴。

I wanna be your companion.

因为她想要回球，所以答应了。

And because she wants the ball, she agrees.

但你知道，好吧。

But, you know, okay.

如果他吃她的盘子，是因为她的父亲，国王说你必须让他这么做。

If he eats off her plate because her father the king says you have to let him do that.

是你自己做了这个约定。

You're the one that made this deal.

然后你知道，这些事那些事，最后当他们准备去睡觉，青蛙想爬上她的枕头时，这就太过分了。

And then you know these things and those things and finally when they get up to go to bed and the frog wants to get on her pillow that's the part that's too much.

一开始和驴子相处还不错，但接着就变成这种状况，你知道的，你能挪开吗？

So it starts off fine with the donkey, but then it gets like this business of like, you know, will you move away?

走开。

Get off.

然后，这种攻击性就出现了，我们的梦中自我对待驴子的方式，就像公主最终对待青蛙那样。

And then that's where the aggression comes in with our dream ego behaving toward the donkey the way the princess eventually behaved toward the frog.

现在，我们的公主抓起青蛙，把它扔向墙壁，啪的一声，他变成了王子。

Now our princess took the frog and flung him against the wall where he went splat and turned into a prince.

这个梦并不完全是那样发展的，但我这样理解：与其说是青蛙的能量，不如说是驴的能量，我们的做梦者会如何梦见这个场景——等等，我们在这里究竟该做什么？

Now this dream doesn't quite go like that but I'm thinking about it that way that there is this instead of frog energy we have donkey energy and how might our dreamer dream this dream on of, wait a minute, what are we supposed to do here together?

也许不必睡在同一张床上，但一定要这么充满争执吗？

Maybe not sleep in the same bed, but does it have to be quite so contentious?

是的。

Yes.

但这也是他成长方式的回响。

But this is also a echo of how he was raised.

他是在一个暴力且极度宗教化的家庭中长大的。

He was raised in a violent, intensely religious home.

我难以想象那里有多少空间留给嬉闹、玩笑和打滚。

And I can't imagine there was a lot of room for hijinks and jokes and rolling around.

所以我认为真正的冲突在于：我发誓绝不会像我的父母那样。

And so I think the real confrontation is I swore I'd never be like my parents.

而我对待自己本能一面的方式，对待幽默、爱玩闹的那部分自我的方式，可能恰恰与我童年时所经历的问题非常相似。

And the way I treat my instinctive self, way I treat the funny part of me, the joking rolling around part of me may be very close to the problem that I experienced as a kid.

创伤治疗中常常很困难的一点是，没错，也许我们的父母错了，老师错了，我们甚至遭受过暴力对待，但我们往往没有意识到，那个施害者、那个虐待者，已经内化为我们内心的一个形象，不断驱使我们以曾经被对待的方式行事，而在这里，就是通过开玩笑、逗乐来行使权力。

And often that is a very difficult part of trauma work is that, yes, maybe our parents did us wrong, teachers did us wrong, we were mistreated even violently, But we often don't realize that the predator, the abuser, is installed inside of us as an inner figure that is prompting us to act in the way that we were treated, and here, to exercise power over making jokes, being funny.

是的。

Yeah.

约瑟夫其实也正走向同一个地方。

Joseph, was kind of winding up at the same place.

就像那头驴子是顽皮的。

Like the donkey is playful.

对。

Yeah.

他就像个孩子。

He's a kid.

而且所有的

And all of

驴子的每一个行为，都是在邀请梦中的自我去玩耍。

the donkey's actions are an invitation to the dream ego to play.

而梦自我的回应是：我必须约束你，我希望爸爸进来帮我把你压下去。

And the dream ego's response is I've got to bridle you and I want daddy to come in and help me put you down.

但这个人从事的是创意行业。

But this guy is in a creative field.

他是一名纪录片导演。

He's a documentary filmmaker.

他需要保持自己 playful 的一面。

He needs to have his playful side.

所以我认为你说得对。

And so I think you're right.

就像他对待自己这个部分的方式一样。

It's like has the way that he's treating this part of himself.

他想用父母对待他那种方式来对待它。

He wants to bring to bear the way his parents treated him.

对。

Right.

他想让爸爸进来帮他把那头驴管住。

He wants his dad to come in and help him get that donkey in line.

但实际上，想想他真正需要的是什么——尤其是如果他正遭遇创作瓶颈的话，他其实应该让那头“驴”好好撒欢玩耍。

But actually, think what he might need, especially, you know, if he's in any kind of creative block is to just let that donkey play.

完全没错。

Absolutely.

那首《耶稣基督赐我力量》的歌，你要靠着力量去做什么呢？

That Jesus Christ give me strength song, give you strength to do what?

他常常想要压制自己身上那些 sinful、偏离正轨、不受约束的部分——这些部分没能恪守清教徒式的优良职业道德，也不符合他所居住的父母家中那种刻严格峻的氛围。

Often to subdue our sinful, errant, undisciplined parts that are not holding on to a good Protestant work ethic and and the stark austerity which is present in the parents' home that he is abiding in.

所以当他陷入父母留下的心理情结时，他似乎就会接纳并效仿父母的态度。

So when he's in the parental complex, he takes on, it seems, the parental attitudes.

不过有一段特别美好的时刻，他在和那头毛驴相处时过得十分愉快。

And there is a wonderful moment where he is enjoying the the donkey.

那才是真正能带来转机的积极迹象。

That's that's the redeeming thing.