FACING REJECTION

欢迎来到《荣格人生》！

Welcome to THIS JUNGIAN LIFE!

三位好朋友兼荣格分析师——丽莎·马尔基亚诺、黛博拉·斯图尔特和约瑟夫·李——邀请你加入我们，一起深入探讨当下重要的议题，从心理学的角度展开真诚的对话。

Three good friends and Jungian analysts Lisa Marchiano, Deborah Stewart and Joseph Lee invite you to join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.

我是丽莎·马尔基亚诺，一名位于费城的荣格分析师。

I'm Lisa Marchiano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.

我是约瑟夫·李，一名位于弗吉尼亚州弗吉尼亚海滩的荣格分析师。

I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

我是黛博拉·斯图尔特，一名在科德角工作的荣格分析师。

I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst on Cape Cod.

我想我们的大多数听众都知道，你们可以通过Patreon支持我们。

Well, I think most of our listeners know that you can support us on Patreon.

这能帮我们维持节目运转。

It helps us keep the lights on.

成为Patreon支持者的一个好处是，你们可以帮我们挑选新的节目主题。

And one of the benefits of being a Patreon supporter is that you get to help us pick new episodes.

所以今天我们要聊的是被拒绝，这个话题是我们 Patreon 支持者们选出来的。

So today, we're going to be talking about rejection, and this is an episode that was picked by our Patreon supporter community.

如果你也想参与挑选未来的节目主题，不妨考虑在 Patreon 上支持我们，详情请访问我们的网站。

If you would like to help us pick future episodes, consider supporting us on Patreon, and you can find that on our website.

当我们决定选这个话题，发现它真的是支持者们挑中的时候，我们都挺惊讶的——居然从来没聊过这个。

So when we came up with this topic and realized it was the one that was chosen, we were all surprised that we'd never done it before.

对很多人来说，被拒绝这件事实在太重要了。

It's such a salient topic to many people's lives.

它以各种形式出现，而且在我看来，在荣格心理学里尤其有特殊的意义。

It happens in all kinds of ways, and it has a particular significance, I think, in Jungian psychology.

所以我们今天会从不同角度来探讨被拒绝这个主题。

So we're gonna be circumambulating rejection.

我觉得，被拒绝这个概念，其实深深根植于我们西方文化的神话传统中。

It strikes me that the idea of rejection is really at the foundation of our Western cultural mythology.

在《创世纪》的神话里，亚当和夏娃原本和上帝相处得非常好。

In the myth of Genesis, Adam and Eve are having a a great time with God.

一切都很顺利。

Everything's smooth.

一切都轻而易举。

Everything's easy.

他们吃了善恶树上的果子，然后上帝就把他们赶走了。

They eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and then God rejects them.

说：‘你们别想再待在这儿了！’把他们直接赶出了家门。

Says, no way you guys are out of here throwing them out of the house.

从此以后，你们得靠汗流浃背才能挣到口粮，生孩子也要受苦，这些命运全都被强加在你们身上。

You're gonna earn your bread by the sweatier brow and have your children in pain and all these other realities, are foisted upon.

同样的被拒绝的模式在该隐和亚伯的故事里再次上演——该隐献上的地里的出产被拒，他因此心生怨恨，犯下了人类历史上第一桩兄弟相残的罪行。

And then that same rejecting arc is repeated in the story of Cain and Abel where Cain's offerings of the fruits of the land are rejected, and he then becomes bitter enough to commit the first terrible crime of of fratricide, killing his brother.

所以，被驱逐、被拒绝，以及被拒绝后的后果，在我们的文化中，在犹太-基督教神话里，都具有极其强大的力量；而修复这段关系、重新回归的希望，则体现在基督将人类带回与上帝的联结中，带回到那个象征着天堂的伊甸园。

So being thrown out, being rejected, and the consequences of being rejected are something that is enormously powerful in our culture and in terms of the Judeo Christian myth, the enormous arc of getting back into the relationship, which is the idea of Christ bringing humanity back into the relationship with God, back into the garden, so to speak, which now is in heaven.

因此，被轻视、被抛弃，以及重新被召唤回到那渴望已久的联结之中——这种主题，其实无处不在。

So the idea of being despised and rejected, the hope of being called back into the longed for relationship is is everywhere around us actually.

你知道吗，你从亚当和夏娃的神话开始讲，真的很棒，因为它直接点出了我们被拒绝时通常会怎么做。

You know, I think you, starting us off with the myth of Adam and Eve is great because it really points to what is it that we do when we are rejected.

我想不到有谁没经历过这种事。

I cannot imagine that anybody has not had that experience.

这在家庭、社区，还有各种群体里都是再正常不过的一部分。

It's a part of living in families and communities and other kinds of collectives.

但亚当和夏娃被赶出去之后，还是找到了活下去的方式，还生了孩子。

But Adam and Eve, when they were rejected and booted out, did figure out how to live, how to have children.

他们得承受这一切。

They had to suffer it.

而希望在于，这种经历会让人意识提升，个性也更成熟，就像荣格说的那样。

And the hope is that then there is an increase in consciousness, an increase in the personality, as Jung would say.

但该隐杀了弟弟，就走向了完全相反的、毁灭性的方向。

Whereas when Cain murders his brother, it goes in a in a very destructive and negative direction.

他犯下了谋杀罪。

He he's he commits homicide.

他无法忍受这种 rejection 而不报复。

He could not suffer it without without retaliating.

被拒绝确实会让人痛心，有时候我们真的会暴怒。

And it does hurt when we're rejected, and we do get, truly rageful sometimes.

这些神话意象中，有些我们待会儿会谈到，它们出现在神话、童话、电影和流行文化里，拒绝要么带来转变与成长，要么让人走向报复与毁灭。

So there are these mythologems, some of which we'll talk about that have appeared in in myth and and fairy tale and in film and popular culture where rejection is the thing that leads to either kind of transformation and enlargement, or it can lead someone to become retaliatory and destructive.

我在想，情感神经科学能告诉我们关于拒绝的哪些事。

You know, I'm thinking about, sort of affective neuroscience and what that teaches us about rejection.

就像你刚才说的，黛布，拒绝是如此根本——因为人类在进化过程中，一旦被群体排斥、孤立，很可能就活不下去了。

And I think that as you were saying, Deb, rejection is so kind of basic that if you know, because when we were evolving as a species, if we got cast if we got ostracized, if we got rejected by the the group that we were in, you know, our number was probably up.

我们几乎不可能幸存。

We were probably not going to survive.

所以今天，当我们被同伴群体拒绝时，比如，你只是觉得，唉，也不知道怎么说。

And so that's why when when we get rejected today by, say, a peer group, let's say, you know, you just kinda get, oh, I don't know.

他们不再让你加入读书会了。

They don't want you in the book club anymore.

你突然就被排除在邮件列表外了，再也没人邀请你参加读书会。

You just get left off the emails, and you don't get invited to the book club anymore.

这种事确实会发生。

It happens.

但感觉真的特别糟。

But it it feels terrible, though.

我觉得这会触发一种生死攸关的反应，因为它唤起了我们祖先在草原上被部落抛弃时的体验——一旦被排斥，就活不下去。

And I think it does evoke a kind of life or death response because it echoes that original situation that we might have experienced, you know, on the savannah where if we got rejected by the tribe, we would die.

真的会死。

We would die.

所以在情感神经科学里，人们提到我们天生有三个系统，专门应对负面情绪，帮助我们应对特定的威胁。

So, you know, so in in affective neuroscience, they they talk about three systems that we're prewired for that produce negative affect, negative feelings, which prepare us to deal with particular challenges.

愤怒让我们有力量去面对威胁、竞争或伤害。

So rage energizes us to confront threats or competition or injuries.

恐惧则让我们僵住或逃跑，避开危险和身体伤害。

Fear causes us to freeze or run away from danger or bodily harm.

但当我们被独自留下时，恐慌和悲伤就会被触发。

But panic and grief is triggered when we are left alone.

所以我觉得这种感觉非常深刻，像是从细胞深处涌出来的。

So I think the feeling that goes along, and it's a very deep kind of cellular experience.

当我们被拒绝时，会感到恐慌和悲伤，就像你刚才说的，约瑟夫，我们会拼命想重新建立联系。

When we're rejected, we feel panic and grief, and we try so hard to like you were saying, Joseph, to kind of restore that connection.

这也会引发一种情绪，我想你刚才提到的就是这个，丽莎。

It can also trigger and I think you're, alluding to this, Lisa.

被抛弃时的那种存在性的绝望状态，可能因为被拒绝而被唤醒。

It's a kind of existential awful self state to be abandoned that can get triggered by rejection.

如果我感到被拒绝，至少我会生气——那是一种自我状态，我在愤怒，在抗议。

If I'm feeling rejected and I get angry at least I'm there it's an ego state and I'm mad and I'm protesting.

如果我害怕，我会采取行动，逃跑或者躲起来，或者僵住，总之会有所反应。

You know if I'm afraid I take action I run away or I hide, you know whatever the I freeze whatever.

但如果是真正的痛苦、焦虑和恐慌，那就不只是自我层面的情绪了，而是陷入一种恐怖的自我瓦解：没有同伴的支持——无论是狩猎小队、家人，还是围坐在篝火旁的人——我仿佛已经不存在了。

But if there is real angst, anxiety, and panic, it can really go beyond just an ego oriented feeling to a self state of terror of I'm not here anymore, without the support of my, fellows whether it's a hunting band or family or you know, people around the fire.

正如你所说，我们在幼年时期能活下来，全靠与他人建立联系、彼此合作。

It goes that deep as you were saying that in our early, early years, the only way we survived was by connection with others and cooperating with others.

今年，我的沃尔斯普林女性静修营将在意大利举行，时间是8月10日到16日。

This year, my Wellspring women's retreat is happening in Italy from the tenth to the August 16.

我们认真考虑了首届欧洲聚会的举办地，最后选定了锡耶纳附近的蒙特普尔恰诺。

We thought hard about where to host our first European gathering and in the end chose Montepulciano near Siena.

我18岁那年第一次去意大利，就深深爱上了那座壮丽的中世纪城市——锡耶纳。

I first went to Italy when I was 18 and fell head over heels in love, with the spectacular medieval city of Siena.

那次旅行我有幸参与了伊特鲁里亚遗址的发掘工作，从此对这个神秘的古文明，还有整个意大利，着了迷。

I was lucky enough to be part of the Etruscan excavation project on that trip and became totally fascinated by this mysterious ancient culture and by Italy in general.

只要有机会，我就一直坚持练习意大利语，这辈子也一直爱读意大利的神话和童话故事。

When I've had the chance, I've tried to keep up my Italian, and I've loved reading Italian myths and fairy tales throughout my life.

所以，今年的年度女性聚会，我觉得这个地区再合适不过了。

So for my annual women's gathering, this region felt like the right place.

我特别期待和大家分享当地的故事，一起出游，去看看托斯卡纳那些最迷人的考古遗址。

I can't wait to share the local stories and take some trips together to see some of Tuscany's most magical archaeological sites.

当然，我们也会提供往常 Wellspring 活动的所有内容。

There will, of course, be all the usual Wellspring offerings too.

包括童话故事、每日瑜伽、解梦练习、按摩，还有充足的放松时间。

Fairy tales, daily yoga, dream work, massage, and plenty of time to relax together.

我特别希望你能来和我一起参加。

I'd love for you to join me.

节目笔记里会提供链接，你可以查看所有详细信息并完成报名。

There will be a link in the show notes for you to read all the details and make a booking.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，这一点在人类物种层面是对的，而且我觉得你刚才其实也暗示了这一点。

And, of course, that's true at the level of the species, but also and I think you were hinting at this step.

作为婴儿，如果我们没有与他人建立联系，根本无法生存。

As as infants, we're not gonna make it unless we're connected.

没错。

Right.

我们天生就极度渴望与人建立联系。

We are hugely wired for human connection.

我们在母亲体内成长时，整天都能听到心跳声。

We we grow inside somebody's body hearing a heartbeat all the time.

英国精神分析学家兼儿科医生唐纳德·温尼科特说过，孩子是靠人‘养出来’的。

Donald Winnicott, who was a British psychoanalyst and a pediatrician, you know, says that we have to bring a baby into being.

当妈妈抱着孩子、唱摇篮曲、对孩子微笑时，孩子的脑细胞就会不断修剪和发育。

And brain cells get pruned and developed as the mother holds the baby, sings to the baby, smiles at the baby.

甚至只是和婴儿对视，都会产生神经和生理上的影响。

Even eye contact with an infant has neurological physiological effects.

所以我们从出生起就注定需要关系——不仅为了基本的生理需求，更为了情感上的安全感、乐观和信任。

So we are wired from the get go for relationship, for, basic physiological processes and certainly for the emotional processes especially a basic feeling of security and optimism and trust.

被排斥的孩子，也就是我们刚才说的更阴暗的那一类，往往会因此留下非常复杂的心理症状。

So the rejected child which is more in that darker realm that we're talking about can be left with some really complicated symptomology as a result of that.

没错。

Yes.

根据被拒绝的彻底程度，孩子可能会产生一种极其强烈的渴望，想要讨好别人，而那个拒绝他的父母，则成了那个充满希望却始终吝于给予的人——看似有无限可能，却从不真正兑现什么，也从不给孩子多少实质的关爱。

Depending on how total the rejection is, it may be that the child develops this tremendous intense need to be pleasing, and then the rejecting parent becomes the exciting withholding parent that they seem to have all of this promise, but they never actually produce very much or they never really give the child much.

所以就像你刚才说的，爸爸，这种被拒绝带来的，是一种让人难以摆脱的执念，总抱着希望，觉得对方终会改变。

So as you were saying earlier, dad, there's a relentless hope that somebody can get trapped into, which is a result of this rejection.

孩子也可能卷入这种仇恨的情绪中，对父母产生一种分裂式的憎恨。

The child can also join into this field of hatred, and the child can feel a kind of splitting hatred towards the parents.

这在《杰克与魔豆》里表现得特别明显：巨人妻子密谋害死杰克，而杰克一出现，故事就展开了——这其实讲的就是爱与恨如此紧密地并肩而存。

And this shows up in Jack and the Beanstalk where the the giant's wife plots his death as Jack shows up on the scene, which is really a story about this idea of loving and hating being so close side by side.

而被拒绝的经历，会在孩子心里投下仇恨的倒影，这一切都属于依恋问题的范畴——长大后，人很难再建立健康的依恋关系，因为被拒绝的角色已经成了自我认同的一部分，对被拒绝的预期会投射到别人身上，甚至不自觉地招致这种结果。

But the rejecting can then lead to this mirror of hatred inside of the child, and all of this is in the realm of attachment troubles where the ability to attach later in life is compromised because the role of being the rejected one has become part of the identity, and the expectation of being rejected is something that is projected out onto other people and even invited to happen.

这其实涉及了替罪羊心理。

This partakes of the scapegoat complex.

是的。

Mhmm.

没错，确实如此。

Yes, it does.

到了上小学的时候， rejection 就没那么难扛了，之后的人生路上也一样。

So rejection is easier to handle by the time you hit grade school, let's say, and then all along the rest of your life path.

前提是你小时候有个安全的根基，就像温尼科特说的，经历过足够好的养育。

If you're from a secure base of a healthy, as Winnicott says, enough mothering parenting experience early on.

但令人欣慰的是，即使小时候没得到过这样的安全基地，我们长大后依然可以自己去建立它。

But the hopeful thing is that a secure base, we can earn it later in life if we didn't have it at the very beginning.

一个很好的例子就是《丑小鸭》，简单说一下——那个被鸭子孵出来的奇怪蛋，其实是一只天鹅。

The great example of that is the ugly duckling, just to take a quick jot into that, And the Hans Christian Andersen story of this strange egg is hatched by a duck, which is really a swan, but it's growing.

它长得又瘦又长。

It's gangly.

看起来跟谁都不一样。

It doesn't look like anybody else.

一开始妈妈还勉强支持它，可后来整个鸡舍的人都觉得这只小天鹅又怪又糟，没救了，丑得不行，可最后它却绽放成了一只非凡而美丽的天鹅。

The mother at first is kind of supportive, but then everyone in the barnyard just thinks this baby swan is just terrible and bizarre and hopeless and gross and and then blossoms and becomes something extraordinary and magnificent.

是的。

Yeah.

约瑟夫，这个故事真是特别贴切地说明了被拒绝的感受。

That that is a great story for, for rejection, Joseph.

很高兴你提到这个故事。

I'm I'm glad you brought that in.

如果你有一阵子没读过原文了，我建议你再去看看，这真是个深刻又令人心碎的故事。

And if you haven't read the original text in a while, I would encourage you to just go do that because it's it's quite a profound and heartbreaking story.

如果你在生活中正经历被拒绝的痛苦，这个故事能帮你从一个新的角度去理解它。

And and if you're suffering from rejection someplace in your life, it it it provides quite a lens to think about that.

所以，德布，你刚才提到有一个稳固的根基，这一点我完全同意。

So, you know, I wanted to say I mean, Deb, you talked about having a a firm base and and yes.

我觉得确实存在一种对拒绝特别敏感的倾向。

And I do think that there is such a thing as rejection sensitivity.

是的，确实如此。

Oh, yes.

这种敏感可能从出生起就存在了。

That that might just be something we're kind of born with.

你会看到一些人，他们对被拒绝特别敏感。

So you see people who who have a kind of rejection sensitivity.

比如，这种敏感常常和注意力缺陷多动障碍一起出现。

Apparently, it can go along with having ADHD, for example.

而且，这也很可能是边缘型人格障碍的一个重要特征。

And, it's it's very likely to be a component of borderline personality disorder.

不过我们也不用把它过度病理化，我觉得这可能是一种我们天生就有的应对模式。

So without pathologizing it too much, I think that it can be something that we are have a sort of set point for managing.

有些人被拒绝了，还是能一次次地回来，甚至到了有点不计后果的地步，有时候你真该说：算了。

Some of us can get rejected and just kinda keep on coming back almost to a pathologic degree where sometimes it's like, no.

也许现在真的该放手了。

It might really be time for you to give up on this.

但另一些人则容易把小事过度解读成被拒绝的信号。

But others of us inter over interpret small things as signs of rejection.

所以，不妨想想自己是不是也这样。

So it might be interesting to just think about that.

你在这中间属于哪种情况？

Where where do you fall on that?

你是不是容易把一些小事解读成拒绝，而实际上根本不是？

Are you are you likely to over interpret things and see things as rejection when they're really not?

还是说你有时候根本察觉不到信号，或者你其实处于一个比较平衡的状态？

Or do you sometimes even have a hard time getting the message, or are you some somewhat a healthy place in between?

现在甚至有个正式的名称，叫拒绝敏感性情绪障碍。

There's even, an an official, name for this now, rejection sensitivity dysphoria.

对。

Mhmm.

所以这已经让它在

So that doesn't that give it its its own standing in the

相当正式了。

Very official.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

好吧。

Okay.

我们把一种普通人会经历的事，现在给它起了个名字。

We've we've taken an ordinary human experience and given it a label now.

是的。

Yes.

一方面，这让人感到被理解，但另一方面，也不禁让人怀疑。

So, in a way, it's validating and and in another way, one wonders.

这种状态往往伴随着强烈的羞耻感、自我厌恶或自责，还有焦虑或愤怒。

But it's really characterized by a tremendous amount of shame, and self loathing or self blame, anxiety or rage.

这是一种非常强烈的情感反应。

So really strong powerful emotional reaction.

有些人会选择孤立自己，比如：我干脆回房间待着，这一周都不出来了。

Isolating can be another reaction that okay I'm just gonna go back up to my room and I'm not coming out for a week.

这也可能引发报复的欲望，想要惩罚那个拒绝你的人，变得具有攻击性，事后反复纠结，一遍又一遍地回想，比如我说了什么，他又说了什么，然后发生了什么事，就是无法释怀。

It can also lead to a desire for retaliation, punishing the rejecter, being aggressive, ruminating afterward, going over it and over it and over it of, you know, I said this and then he said that and then this happened and, not able to let go of it.

如果你的自尊心可能过度依赖别人对你的看法，或者只是普遍地觉得自己是个异类，像个丑小鸭一样。

And, if your self esteem, maybe maybe over dependent upon what other people think of us and, or just, overall generally feeling like a misfit, feeling like the ugly duckling.

确实是这样。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得被拒绝是生活的一部分，有时候确实很难承受。

I mean, I think that rejection's a part of life, and it might be very difficult to to withstand sometimes.

不过，它确实可以归入那种…… distress，抱歉，是 distress tolerance 或者情绪调节的范畴。

But it it does fit into that sort of, distress sorry, distress tolerance or affect regulation category.

对吧？

Right?

就是说，这种情况真的很糟糕，你需要试着找一些积极的、建设性的方式来应对，而不是反复纠结，或者编造什么‘我本质上不可爱’之类的故事。

Like, you can it's really awful, and you you you need to to try to find some pros like, some constructive ways to deal with it instead of ruminating on it or or kind of writing a story like I'm essentially unlovable or whatever.

所以，我们可以梳理出两条主要的应对路径。

So so there really are kind of two paths we might lay out.

一种是让人陷入怨恨的拒绝，另一种则是让人变得坚韧不屈的拒绝。

One is the rejection that leads to a kind of dark embittlement, and then there's a rejection that leads to a heroic resilience.

有很多人被拒绝的故事。

And there are stories of individuals being rejected.

圣经里的约瑟就是一个很好的例子，他的兄弟们因为嫉妒，把他扔进坑里，想惩罚他，不把他当兄弟看，后来他还被抓住卖为奴隶。

Joseph, in the Bible is a great story where his brothers kind of, throw him into a pit, you know, as a way of punishing him because they're so envious rejecting him as a brother, he being, captured and then sold into slavery.

但当他后来崛起，成为埃及朝廷重臣时，遭遇了饥荒。

And yet, when he is risen up and becomes this, important bureaucrat in Egyptian society, there's a famine.

他的兄弟们前来求助，这时就到了关键的道德抉择时刻。

His brothers come, and this is the pivotal moral moment.

那些曾经折磨他、拒绝他的人，现在来向他求援。

The brothers that kind of tortured him and rejected him come asking for help.

约瑟必须做出选择：他是要当一个报复者，还是当一个宽恕者？

And Joseph needs to decide, you know, will he be a villain or will he be a hero?

也许他心里没想得这么清楚，但这两条路确实摆在眼前。

Not necessarily in his mind, but those are two clear options.

约瑟决定帮助他的家人。

And Joseph decides that he is going to help his family.

他悄悄把金子放回他们装粮食的麻袋里，让他们不用付钱。

He's going to put their gold back in the sacks of grain so that they don't have to pay for the resources.

最终，他拥抱了家人，尽管他们曾经抛弃了他。

He then finally embraces his family even though they had rejected him.

而部分原因，正是因为他当初的遭遇，才带来了如今这份非凡的福气。

And in part because his rejection has led to this extraordinary good fortune for him.

你知道，这是一种选择，对吧？那就是宽恕、慈悲，让自己超越问题本身。

You know that that's one option isn't it is the forgiveness, the compassion and becoming bigger than the problem.

到这个时候，约瑟已经成长了。

By this time Joseph's become bigger.

他成功了。

He's been successful.

这些其实都是内心成长的象征，不是吗？

I mean these are all symbols of of an inner development right?

在这个世界上拥有地位、身居高位、掌握这样的权力，其实象征着他内心变得更加完整，也因此能对兄弟们说：没关系了。

The status in the world and being, high up and having that kind of power is a way of representing that he has become more whole and can then say to his brothers, you know, it's okay.

过去的事就让它过去吧。

We can let bygones be bygones.

但我也意识到，在童话里，有时候复仇的情节特别血腥，比如灰姑娘，她原本被逼着扫炉灰，后来去参加舞会，王子拿着玻璃鞋来找她，鞋不合她两个姐姐的脚——在某个版本里，她们为了能穿上鞋，甚至砍掉了脚趾。

But I'm also aware that in fairy tales, I mean, there are some really wonderfully, gory retaliatory scenarios of, Cinderella, of course is you know consigned to the lowly status of sweeping the cinders and off she goes to the ball comes back and when the glass slipper that the prince comes bearing does not fit either of her sisters, in one version of the tale they chop off a sister's toes to make the shoe fit.

另一个姐姐则砍掉了脚后跟，只为让鞋能穿上。

And for the other sister they chop off her heel to make the shoe fit.

说实话，这种情节真是有点吓人，哎哟。

I mean it's just sort of grizzly of like oh.

所以我一直在想，这其实是个意识层面的问题：什么时候该选择报复——姑且叫它天道轮回，什么时候又该选择宽恕？关键在于，我们最终能主动做出选择。

So I wonder if it is a question of, of consciousness as to when it is appropriate or when retaliation, let's call it poetic justice, ensues, when compassion, may be, may be the right choice, but that we get to a place where we're choosing.

这事儿在同学聚会上特别常见，我一想到这个就来了灵感。

This comes up so frequently, during high school reunions, which just comes into my mind.

我今年六月就要参加高中毕业四十五周年聚会了，说这话真有点不敢相信。

My, forty fifth high school reunion is coming up in June, which is incredible to say that phrase.

有意思的是，我总是会去参加，见到老同学特别开心，而有些人就不愿回去，因为

And interestingly enough, I have a tendency to show up and I feel really thrilled, to see people And and other people won't go to their high school reunion because

是的。

Yes.

他们觉得当年被伤害、被排斥、被亏待了，实在找不到理由再回去。

They felt so wounded, so rejected, so ill treated, and that they can't find some other orientation to want to return.

或者担心去了也会被冷落，觉得自己不够出色。

Or that they will be rejected because they don't measure up.

啊，说到点子上了。

Ah, there we go.

他们觉得自己没达到当今社会所推崇的那种成功标准。

They haven't achieved whatever the, you know, whatever the tropes may indicate in today's world.

我知道有些人不去聚会，是因为觉得自己的人生和事业没达到当初的期望，没法回去说：‘我现在是某某公司的CEO，开的是捷豹。’

But I I know people who have not gone to reunions because they don't feel they lived up to what they had hoped their lives and careers would be that you can go back and say, well, you know, I'm the CEO of x y z corp and you drive up in your jaguar.

那如果我回去，就只是一个普通的社工呢

So if I show up just being a lowly social worker

心理分析师。

Psychoanalyst.

我是心理分析师，所以又可能像高中时那样，因为不是被选中参加对抗赛的人而再次被排斥。

Psychoanalyst, so I could be rejected once again as I was in high school for being the guy that's not chosen for the scrimmage.

我想说，我最近参加了一次大学同学会，结果每个人都是律师、医生或者教授，他们就问：那你现在做什么？

I just wanna say I did go to one of my college re reunions recently and it's like everyone's like a lawyer or a doctor or professor and they're like, what are you doing?

我说我是人类行为分析师，结果没人懂这是干什么的。

Like, I'm a young human analyst and no one knew what it was.

没人懂这是干什么的。

No one knew what it was.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为，这和个体化密切相关。

But what I'm thinking is that this ties in very much with individuation.

我的意思是，参加高中或大学同学会时，真正重要的，是外在的成就——财富、地位、名声、权力，还是你自己的个体化：我就在这里。

I mean, is the important part of going to your high school or college reunion, these outer world sort of, status achievements of of wealth or position or fame or power versus your own individuation of, I am here.

这是我走过的人生，经历过的所有事情，不管是什么，我的自尊不再依赖于那些外在的符号和标志，也不再依赖别人怎么看我。

This is the life that I have led with the life events I experienced, whatever they may be, but my self esteem is no longer dependent upon those kind of external world, symbols and markers, and it's no longer dependent upon what other people think.

我已经足够了。

I'm enough.

我就在这里。

I'm right here.

对我来说，这其实是一种自我否定。

To me, we're in that realm of self rejection.

你知道的，他们可能都开着捷豹。

You know, that they're all gonna be driving their Jaguars.

而我呢，开的是捷达。

I'm gonna show up in my Jetta.

他们可能根本不会说一句话，甚至根本不会注意到。

And they're probably not gonna say a word or not even know.

在我的想象里，我会因为自己不够好而否定自己，然后就想躲起来。

That in my imagination, I'm going to reject myself for being less than inadequate and and thus then want to hide.

没错。

Right.

这又回到了我们之前提到的一个点，就是敏感于被拒绝——你的自我价值是不是太依赖别人怎么看？

And that goes back to one of the things that we touched on earlier with rejection sensitivity, which is, is your self esteem overly dependent on what others might think?

还是说，你能坦然地接纳自己？

Or are you comfortable with yourself?

从外界来看，你可能经历了不少挫折和不如意，但我依然在这里。

And there might have been all kinds of life mishaps and other stuff from an external world perspective, but but I'm here.

我依然是我，内心有一种根本的自我价值感。

And I'm still this person, with an essential sense of worthiness.

我不把自己的价值跟身份、邮编，或者其他那些外在的东西挂钩。

I'm not identified with my role or, ZIP code or whatever other things might be involved.

你知道吗，我们之前聊过两种情况：有人被拒绝后，就变成了反派，像凯恩那样；或者有时候，拒绝反而让人成长。

You know, we've talked about these sort of two formulas where someone might maybe gets rejected and then becomes the villain like like Kane and or or or or how a rejection can sometimes bring about growth.

我想跟你们分享一个我自己的故事。

And, I think I'll just share a personal story.

那时候我正琢磨着自己到底想做什么职业。

I was kind of trying to figure out what I wanted to do career wise.

我本来该去纽约的哥伦比亚法学院读法律的。

I was supposed to start law school at Columbia Law in New York.

但我休了段时间，去国外工作了。

And I took some time off and I was working overseas.

就是那时候我开始读荣格的书，突然就不确定自己是不是真想读法学院了。

And I and I this is when I started reading Jung, and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go to law school.

但我当时有个现在看来特别傻的想法——如果能进哈佛法学院，那我也许就去读。

But I I got this now it seems very silly idea that maybe I would go to law school if I could go to Harvard Law.

所以

So

我现在回想起来，真不知道当时自己是怎么想的。

I and and now I'm sort of like, what on earth was I thinking?

但那年我在海外的时候，还是申请了哈佛法学院，结果被拒了。

But I went through the process of applying to Harvard Law that year while I was overseas, and I got rejected.

现在回头看，我真的要感谢上天。

And and, you know, now I look back and I think, well, thank god.

因为如果当时被录取了，我大概就真去了，那也就不会成为荣格分析师了。

Because if because if I'd gotten in, I probably would have gone, and then I wouldn't have become a Jungian analyst.

所以，那扇门关得真是对极了，它本来就不该为我打开。

So, you know, I I that was that was really a place where life closed a door that really should not like, that was the right door to close.

你说是吧？

You know?

当你想到那些当时让人难受的拒绝时，好像冥冥之中，自我正在悄悄挪动棋盘上的棋子。

And and so, you know, when you think about these these rejections that can certainly sting at the time, But it it seems like somehow the self is, maybe moving the chess pieces on the board a little bit.

那根本不是你应该走的路。

It's like, that is not where you should go.

咱们就此打住吧。

Let's close that off.

每当这种事发生，关键是你该怎么应对。

It comes back again and again to what do you do with it when it happens.

这种事迟早都会遇上。

It's gonna happen.

我实在想不出，有谁一生能躲得过这种经历。

I I can't imagine anybody going through life without that.

有时候，这种打击还特别严重。

And sometimes it can be very major.

比如和未婚妻分手，那种心碎的感觉，真的让人承受不住。

A real wound to the heart when you break up with let's say it's a fiance and it's just devastating.

没能考上心仪的大学或研究生院，被人欺凌，遭遇那种刻骨铭心的拒绝——这些都算得上是沉重的创伤。

The disappointment of not getting into the college or graduate school of your choice, being bullied, really being the target of awful version of rejection.

面对这些，我们该怎么办？

What do we do with it?

我们能不能想办法利用它，比如允许自己悲伤，然后接受它？

Can we put it to use somehow, including just grieving it and accepting it?

这确实让人受伤、痛苦、难过。

And this is hurtful, painful, sorrowful.

但我认为，人生很多事归根结底就是：面对发生的事，我们该怎么应对。

But I think a lot of life comes down to this of what do we do with the things that happen to us.

你懂的。

You know?

当然，我们其实已经提到过几种不同类型的拒绝了。

And, of course, you know, I mean, we've sort of been naming these different kinds of rejection.

比如学术或职业上的拒绝，这背后往往会牵动很多情绪。

I mean, I think there's the sort of, like, professional academic rejection, and that has to do with, well, I mean, that can activate all kinds of things.

但这种拒绝和朋友、亲人或恋人带来的 interpersonal 拒绝，完全是两码事。

But it's very different than that interpersonal rejection by friends or or loved ones or a lover, for example.

先说说第一种吧，我想我们大多数人也都经历过申请大学、学校、研究生院或者找工作被拒的情况，那种感觉是怎么样的。

But just to stay in the first realm for a minute, you know, I think if you I mean, we most of us have had to apply to college or school or graduate school or jobs and what it's like to get rejections.

而且你知道，你可能会收到很多拒信，甚至被拒得特别多。

And, you know, you can you can you can get a lot or you can really rack up the rejections.

找工作的过程真的特别耗人心力，因为你不断投简历，投了又投。

I mean, looking for a job can be just emotionally exhausting because you just keep on putting your resume out and putting your resume out.

现在很多时候，你投了根本就石沉大海，一点回音都没有。

And these days, you just get nothing back, I think, a lot of times.

对吧？

You know?

以前至少有时候还能收到一封正式的拒信。

It used to be that at least sometimes you'd get a rejection letter.

如果你是演员或者作家，去试镜、投稿，就会一直被拒绝，尤其是作为写作者。

But if you're an actor or a writer and you're going on auditions, you keep you keep on getting rejected as a as a writer.

对吧？

You know?

这个我太懂了。

And I know this.

你投出去的东西，总是被拒。

You submit stuff, and it gets rejected.

德布，就像你刚才说的，那遇到这种情况你怎么办？

And, Deb, as you were saying, kind of what do you do with it?

我觉得，在那些经常被拒的行业里，大家都明白，你得学会自己扛住。

Do you you know, I I think most people in fields where there's a lot of rejection just built in know that you kind of have to steal yourself.

你得让自己对这些打击免疫，别被它们打垮，慢慢练出一副厚脸皮。

You really have to inure yourself against it so that you don't just get undone by it, but you kind of develop a thick skin.

其实有不少特别有名的作家，他们收到的拒稿信现在都能找到，读起来挺有意思。

And there there's some really great, you know, rejection letters to famous writers on on you know, that you that you can read.

这些例子反而能让你换个角度看问题——你看，连世界上最伟大的作家，也曾经收到过特别糟糕的拒稿信。

And and it, you know, it kinda helps give you a little bit of perspective that, yes, even the world's greatest authors have, you know, gotten terrible rejection letters.

我特别喜欢这一封寄给海明威的拒稿信，给你说说。

Here's a here's one that was sent to Ernest Hemingway that I I quite like.

那是针对他的小说《太阳照常升起》写的回信。

This was in response to, his book, The Sun Also Rises.

1925年，皮科克出版社的一个人写道，坦白说，你的文风确实让人觉得枯燥又反感。

In 1925, someone at the the publisher Peacock and Peacock wrote, if I may be frank, you certainly are in your prose, I found your efforts to be both tedious and offensive.

你真是个典型的硬汉，对吧？

You really are a man's man, aren't you?

我一点都不奇怪，你写这个故事的时候，大概正锁在俱乐部里，一手握着墨水，一手拿着白兰地。

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that you had penned this entire story locked up at the club ink in one hand, brandy in the other.

你那些夸张做作、满嘴大话的角色，让我忍不住也想来一口白兰地。

Your bombastic dip somaniac, wear to now characters had me reaching for my own glass of brandy.

所以你看，这就是一封拒稿信。

So, you know, that's that's a rejection.

如果我们身处一个注定要面对大量拒绝的领域，就得想好应对的办法。

And if we're in a field like that where we're where we're gonna have to deal with a lot of rejection, we need to have a strategy for that.

就像你之前说的，黛布，我觉得关键在于，别把自己的价值感太依赖于别人对你的评价——这真的很难做到。

And and, you know, like like you were saying, Deb, I think it was, you know, don't don't let your your sense of self be too caught up in what you get back from other people, which is a really difficult thing to do.

要保持客观的立场，同时也要承认自己的主观感受。

Achieve an objective standpoint and, as well as a subjective reaction.

我常打个比方，就像踢足球时，站在球场上和坐在贵宾包厢里的区别。

I often use the analogy to being, if you're in a football game, the difference between being down on the field versus being up in the skybox.

如果你只盯着自己被撞倒、被扑抢、浑身疼，觉得这就是全部，那确实很难受。

And if everything is identified with, oh my gosh, you know, I really got slammed and I really got tackled and everything hurts and that's your only stance.

但如果你从贵宾包厢往下看，能看到更大的格局，就不会把每件事都当成针对自己的攻击。

It's hard versus there's also the view from the skybox that sees a bigger hole and it helps us not take everything personally.

不是每件事都跟你个人有关，不管这里的‘你’是谁。

It's not always about you, let's say, whoever the you is.

这位编辑当然不喜欢那本书，可我们现在都知道，那本书是美国文学的经典之作。

And this was obviously an editor that did not like a book that we all now know to be an American classic.

我想，海明威当时能保持一种客观的态度：确实很痛，但我知道这不代表全部。

So Hemingway was able I think to take an objective stance of this hurts.

那位编辑毫不留情地批评了他，不过说他一手拿着白兰地、坐在那儿写作，倒也挺符合他的风格。

The guy certainly didn't hesitate to excoriate him although the part about sitting there with, a glass of brandy in one hand might well have been the case.

很可能就是这么回事。

Probably true.

但海明威能说，我相信这部作品。

But he was Hemingway was able to say, I believe in this.

我喜欢它。

I like it.

我打算再投一次。

I'm gonna send it out again.

丽莎，你还记得你为第一本书投了多少封查询信吗？

And Lisa, I forget how many thousands of query letters you sent out for your first book.

你花了不少时间，也知道可以继续尝试，没必要把每一份拒绝都当成对你的个人攻击。

I mean, it, but you knew you'd spent the time and you knew that you could keep trying and that that, you didn't have to absorb it all as if it were, you know, personal attacks.

你心里清楚，自己有东西值得推向市场。

There was some distance there of, nope, I think I've got something to take to the marketplace.

你确实做到了。

And you did.

如果我们转向人际层面的拒绝，这会引发完全不同的感受。

So if we move into the realm of kind of interpersonal rejection, which I think calls up a very different set of feelings.

我的意思是，工作被拒、求职或申请学校被退回，那种感觉真的很糟糕。

I mean, it feels terrible to get a work thing rejected or a rejection letter from a job or a college.

你被开除了。

You're fired.

对。

Yeah.

但如果是被朋友或恋人拒绝，那种感觉更直接、更深刻，真的，既有失去的痛苦，也有深深的悲伤。

But to be, to be rejected by a friend or or a lover, It's something even more visceral, I think, and and really you know, well, there's the loss and there's the grief.

有一则著名的文学故事讲的就是拒绝，就是普希金的《叶甫盖尼·奥涅金》，塔季扬娜爱上了奥涅金，却被他拒绝了。

And, one of the the famous literary, stories of rejection is, Pushkin's Eugene Onegin, where Tatiana is in love with Onegin, and he rejects her.

然后他就离开了。

And then he goes away.

等他再回来的时候，她已经成了众人追捧的对象。

And when he comes back, she's now kind of the hot thing.

而他却想重新赢得她的爱和青睐。

And he wants to win her love and affection.

她却说，不行。

And she she's she says, nope.

我可不接受。

Not having it.

所以，被恋人拒绝，真的会深深伤人。

So, so the the the rejection by a lover, can can affect us very deeply.

我觉得这是因为，对方在乎的是你这个人。

I think because there it is about the person.

如果你交论文、做项目或者提书稿，你心里清楚，那只是事情本身。

There's some hope if you're submitting a term paper or a work project or a book proposal, you know that it's about it.

我并不完全把自己代入其中。

And I'm not totally, in all that.

这是我做的一个作品，但它不代表我本人。

This is a product I've made, but it's not me personally.

但要是有人跟你分手，那针对的就是你这个人。

But if somebody breaks up with you in a romantic relationship, it's about you.

我觉得这还触发了你之前提到的那种依恋反应，约瑟夫。

Well, I also think it activates all that attachment stuff that that you were talking about before, Joseph.

你知道，这就是关键区别。

You know, it that's the that's the difference.

我们现在谈的是那种依恋机制，它根深蒂固。

We're in the realm of that attachment stuff, which is so primal.

有没有人能完全躲过这种情感伤害？

Is there anybody that has escaped that kind of wounding?

这种事也总会找上门来。

That comes our way too.

我觉得被拒绝是人之常情。

And I think that rejection is part of being human.

没错。

That

比如孩子，如果家庭接纳并鼓励他们展现每一个特质，长大后就可能变成一个极端自我中心的怪物。

children, for instance, every trait, if it's welcomed into the family, if it's welcomed into full expression, will create this kind of monstrous narcissistic mess of an adult.

文化必须决定哪些是行为准则，其他东西就得放一边。

That the culture has to decide these are the rules of engagement and these other things are gonna get set aside.

我们家就是这样。

This is how we are as a family.

我们看重这些，至于别的，就只能搁置了。

This is what we value and these other things, you know, we're going to get put aside.

所以，这个筛选过程本质上就是一种选择。

So the whole process of winnowing is is a form of selecting.

每次选出一样东西，就必然有别的东西被舍弃。

And every time something is selected, something else falls by the wayside.

顺便说一句，这在迈尔斯-布里格斯性格类型里特别典型。

By the way, this is, very typological in the Myers Briggs typology.

我是ENFJ型。

Like I'm I'm an e n f j.

他们后来又加了最后两个字母。

So they added these last two, letters.

你是判断型还是知觉型？

You're a j type or a p type.

判断型的人做决定更干脆。

J types are much more decisive.

如果你果断，就得接受那些没选的路。

And if you're decisive, you have to make peace with the thing you're not choosing.

要做出果断的选择，就得放弃很多所谓的其他机会。

There are many, quote unquote, rejected opportunities in order to be decisive.

所以那些知觉型的朋友，觉得这简直太折磨人了。

Consequently, our friends that are p types, they find that torturous.

我以前有来访者，和一个人谈了十五年恋爱，还纠结说：‘可我要是真和他结婚，那其他所有可能性不就都放弃了？门都关上了，我简直痛苦死了。’

Like I've had analysands who've dated somebody for fifteen years and they're like, well, but if I marry them, then all these other options somehow are being rejected, the doors are closing and I'm in an agony about it.

尽管她这么多年只和这一个人在一起。

Even though they've only been with this one person for fifteen years.

所以，只要你站定一个立场，就意味着你放弃了其他所有可能。

So the idea of taking a stance, taking a position anywhere means I'm not doing something else.

我没有选别的东西。

I'm not choosing something else.

这至少是一种隐性的拒绝，甚至可能是明示的拒绝。

And that is at the very least an implicit rejection if not an explicit rejection.

这让我想到一本最近很火的书，很多人应该都听说过，叫《被讨厌的勇气》，它掀起了一股对阿德勒心理学的热潮。

This goes to, I think, also a recent book that many people I think are aware of called The Courage to be Disliked, which has caused an upwelling in interest in Adlerian, psychoanalytic thought.

当我们真正了解自己时，自然会吸引一批人来接纳或排斥、喜欢或不喜欢真实的我们。

And this capacity to know who we are immediately creates a field around us of people who are going to accept or reject or going to like or not like who we are when we are authentic.

如果每个人总是喜欢你、赞同你，那说明你还没有形成清晰的个性。

And if everyone likes us, if everybody approves of us at all times, it's because we don't have a clearly defined personality.

你从来都没有明确表态过。

We've never taken a position.

作为一个有明确边界、界限分明的人，自然会引发周围人对你的好恶与取舍，这其实就是日常生活中那种微妙而真实的界限感。

So there is something about being a discrete and clearly delineated human being that automatically sets up a field around us of what's rejected, what's accepted, which is also called having boundaries in in the subtle and everyday and ordinary way of that.

对。

Right.

所以我们得学会拒绝，不管是对自己还是对周围环境，同时也要准备好面对被拒绝，因为不是每个人都会喜欢你。

So we have to be able to reject things and both in ourselves and in our environment and also be willing to be able to withstand being rejected because not everyone's gonna like us.

我患有二型糖尿病。

I have type two diabetes.

我得拒绝胡萝卜蛋糕。

I have to rebuke the carrot cake.

走开，胡萝卜蛋糕，离我远点。

Get thee behind me, carrot cake.

为了自己的健康，我必须放弃一些东西。

I have to reject certain things for my own well-being.

不过我觉得这其实叫选择。

Although what I would call that is, choice.

而选择是一种有意识的决定。

And choice is in consciousness.

这需要强大的自我意志。

And it requires ego strength.