Episode 5: Tips for Writing Well

大家好，欢迎收听这个播客系列。

Hi, and welcome to this podcast series.

我和博士生江柔娜一起思考。

PhD thinks with me, Jovina Ang.

我今天来是想和博士群体聊聊。

I'm here to talk to the PhD community.

和这些人的交流让我不断挑战自己，改变了我的思维方式，也让我在领导力和个人成长上受益良多。

Talking to these individuals have challenged me, made me think differently, and helped me grow as a leader and a person.

希望你们也能从我和嘉宾们的对话中，学到一两样有用的东西。

And I hope you'll be able take away a thing or two from the conversations with my guests.

我的初稿通常都很长，特别长。

My first drafts are typically lengthy, lengthy.

很多时候读起来就像一堆数据堆砌。

Very often they really read like data dumps.

但我就是喜欢这样。

But I prefer that.

我写作的时候，全身心投入，一直写下去。

When I'm writing, I just put my heart and soul in it and I keep writing.

然后我会换种心态回来，大刀阔斧地删减。

Then I go back with a different mindset and I chop.

大家好。

Hello everyone.

欢迎收听本期《This PhD Thinks》。

Welcome to this episode of This PhD Thinks.

今天做客的嘉宾是哈沃维·乔希。

My guest today is Havovi Joshi.

她是新加坡管理大学管理实践中心主任。

Havovi is the head of the Centre of Management Practice at Singapore Management University.

她写过好几本书和大量案例，以前还做过银行工作。

She's an author of several books and many, many cases, and a former banker.

哈沃维，谢谢你来参加这个播客，我真的很高兴你能来。

Havovi, thank you for coming on the podcast and I'm so glad that you're doing this.

谢谢你，乔薇娜。

Thank you, Jovina.

今天能来这里和你聊天，我真的很开心。

It's such a pleasure being here and speaking with you today.

期待我们今天的交流。

Looking forward to our chat.

当然了。

Oh, absolutely.

所以，哈沃维，你很喜欢写作。

So Havovi, you love writing.

能跟我们说说，你是怎么爱上写作的吗？

Tell us, how did you get your passion in writing?

说来有趣，我最初是因为特别爱读书才开始写的。

I think interestingly it started because I'm such an avid reader.

如果你问我真正的热情是什么，那就是阅读。

If you ask me what is my real passion, it's reading.

好的。

Okay.

即使现在，每天下班后，走完步或者做完其他事，我都会花四五个小时读一些跟工作完全无关的东西。

Even today after I finish a day of work at office and I've finished my walks or whatever, I read for about four to five hours a day of just non office related stuff.

哦，从小时候起我就一直这样了。

Oh And this is something I've been doing ever since I was a child.

小时候总是埋头看书，我想正因如此，后来我也渐渐爱上了写作，这就是我开始写作的原因。

Always had my nose buried in a book and I think the mirror image of that is somewhere along the way you also love writing and that's how I started off.

那你现在正在读什么有趣的作品呢？

So what are you reading at the moment then that is interesting?

我读的都是纯小说。

I read pure fiction.

我平时的工作全是读那些特别深奥的学术资料，你能想象吧。

My day job is all about reading very heavy academic stuff if you can imagine.

是的。

Yes.

所以晚上读书的时候，我纯粹是为了享受乐趣。

And so when I do read at night, it's purely for pleasure.

我觉得如果你想成为一个好作家，这一点特别重要。

And I think that's very important if you want to be a good writer.

你不应该只读或只写某一类书或文章。

You shouldn't be reading or writing just one type of books or articles.

比如纯小说、畅销书，它们都能给你很多启发。

Know, pure fiction, bestsellers, lots they have to offer to you.

你学会怎么让内容引人入胜、节奏紧凑、抓人眼球；而另一方面，读我所说的学术类作品，你能体会到结构的重要性，学会如何直击重点。

You learn how to keep it interesting, racy, catchy and on the other hand when you read what I call the more academic stuff, you learn the importance of structure, you learn the importance of being to the point.

对。

Yes.

所以这两类阅读都能带来很大收获。

So both have a lot to offer.

没错，你知道吗，写作在今天的工作中，甚至在学习中，都是至关重要的能力。

Right, so as you know, writing is such an important skill for today's work or even when you're studying.

你能给我们一个简单的框架，教我们怎么写得好吗？

Can you give us a very simple framework as to how we can write well?

我觉得

I think

我有几条特别管用的建议，顺序不重要，第一条就是写之前先列提纲，不管是一页纸还是整本书都一样。

a few tips which have worked well for me, and this is not really in any particular order, But the first one is have an outline whether it's a one pager or it's a book.

这个提纲就是你的施工图。

That outline is like your blueprint.

写的时候要经常回头看，别跑偏太多。

It's what you should keep going back to to see that you haven't gone down too many little lanes.

很容易分心，但只要你把提纲摆在眼前，就能提醒自己：写这篇文章的初衷是什么，目标是什么，我最想传达的那八九个关键点或故事线是什么。

It's very easy to get distracted and if you keep that in front of you, this was the purpose, this was the aim for writing this piece, these are maybe the eight or 10 storylines or critical points I want to bring across.

这是我最看重、最重要的写作原则。

That's me the number one most important thing to follow.

没错。

Right.

第二点是，写作的时候要记住，这跟锻炼一样。

The second one is when you're writing to remember it's like any other exercise.

你不能时写时不写。

You can't drop it and pick it up.

这样只会让事情变得更难。

It makes it that much harder.

你得埋头苦干，坚持写下去。

You just have to bury your hair down and just keep at it.

是的。

Yeah.

其实我特别能理解第二点，我自己也写过几本书，桌上就贴着一张便利贴，上面写着‘坐稳了’，因为只有这样，我才能

Actually, can resonate with the second point because I've written several books myself and I have this sticker right in front of me, post it sticker, that says bump in the chair, because that's the only way that I can

把作品完成。

make myself finish that piece of work.

我完全同意。

Couldn't agree more.

而且千万别忘了，修改起来远比绞尽脑汁想新内容要容易得多，得当个狠心的编辑。

And it's also really important to remember that it's much, much easier to edit and to be a brutal editor rather than to think up or conjure new stuff.

我的初稿通常都特别长，特别长，特别长。

My first drafts are typically lengthy, lengthy, lengthy.

很多时候读起来就像一堆数据堆砌，但我就是喜欢这样。

Very often they really read like data dumps, but I prefer that.

写的时候，我就全身心扑进去，不停地写。

When I'm writing, I just put my heart and soul in it and I keep writing.

等写完了，我换种心态回来，大刀阔斧地删减。

Then I go back with a different mindset and I chop.

但我发现，凡是那些我撂下来说‘改天再回来改’的作品，后来真的很少再碰了。

But I have found that any piece of work which I have left and I've said I'll come back to later, that later really doesn't happen very

很少。

often.

对，我特别能理解这一点。

Yeah, I can resonate with that.

我有很多事情都搁置了，一直没完成，就是因为总想着‘以后再做’。

There's so many things I have left aside that I have never completed because of the later bit.

你提到的这个观点，正是我常说的‘粗糙初稿’。

But you made this point about what I like to call the dirty first draft.

我写博士论文的时候，有个人跟我提过这个说法，记得是我在微软的同事阿斯特丽德·图南，她说：‘乔维娜，你先把第三十稿写出来，再回头改。’

Someone actually mentioned that to me when I was writing my dissertation and I remember it was Astrid Touanes, my colleague at Microsoft who said, Look Jovina, just get your thirty first draft out and then go back and edit.

对。

Yes.

我从前的老板，齐博士，还给我过另一条特别好的建议。

The other piece of great advice I got from my former boss, Doctor.

齐，你认识他。

Zee, you know him.

哦，认识，是我们的好朋友。

Oh yes, very good friend of ours.

对。

Yes.

十年前他给了我一些建议，特别有用。

He gave me some wonderful advice ten years back.

他说你写作的问题在于太追求完美，总想等到百分之百完美了才发出去。

He said the problem with you and your writing is that, you are becoming too much of a perfectionist and you want it to be that 100% perfect before you forward it on.

他说第一稿能达到百分之八十五就很好了。

He says remember for a first draft 85% is where you should be.

因为这样你就不会对初稿太上瘾。

Because then, you don't get too attached to your piece.

修改意见、编辑的反馈，你都不会觉得烦，心态开放，毕竟还没投入太多精力，最后那百分之十五往往最枯燥。

Review notes, editor comments, they don't start bothering you, you're very open to it and you haven't invested so much because that last 15% is actually sometimes most tedious.

我觉得这建议特别好。

And I think that's great advice.

我也这么觉得。

I think so too.

我也这么觉得。

I think so too.

所以我问你，你写作的时候明显特别有成就感。

So let me ask you, you obviously spark a lot of joy when you write.

那写作是怎么给你带来这种满足感的呢？

So how does writing spark that joy in you?

我觉得是因为我本身没什么创造力，身上一点艺术细胞都没有，这真是我最大的遗憾。

I think because I'm not a creative person, I don't have an artistic bone in my body, my greatest regret.

但写作可能是唯一让我觉得在创造东西的地方，正因如此，我才一直坚持下去。

This is perhaps the one place where I feel I'm creating something and so that keeps me going.

我刚开始写作的时候，别人总说需要一个安静的房间、安静的环境。

When I start writing, you know, people talk about needing a quiet room and a quiet space.

但你把我扔进正在比赛的体育场，我照样能写。

You can put me in the middle of a stadium with a match going on and I'll write.

我能把整个世界都屏蔽掉。

I can tune out the whole world.

真厉害。

Wow.

所以我在哪儿写都无所谓，我想这不只是因为专注，更是因为我真的享受这个过程。

So it doesn't matter to me where I am and that is I think because not just of the focus but because I really enjoy it.

我喜欢看到它们慢慢成型的样子。

I love seeing it come together.

一些零散的想法、模糊的念头，或者到处乱放的零碎信息。

Some loose ideas, loose thoughts or maybe you know random pieces of data strewn around.

我特别享受把它们拼凑在一起的感觉。

I love that thing of getting it together.

就像厨师做菜一样。

It's like, I think, a chef with a recipe.

你手上有各种食材，然后慢慢调配，最后就做出了一篇初稿。

You know, you have all these ingredients and then you kind of mix it together and out comes a draft.

真棒，我喜欢这个说法。

Wow, I like

这个比喻很贴切。

that analogy.

我真的很喜欢这一点。

I truly like that.

所以Havovi，你希望听众从这次对话中带走的最重要的一点是什么？

So Havovi, what is one key takeaway you want to leave behind with the listeners?

我觉得应该尽早开始写作，多鼓励年轻人动笔。

I would say that start writing early and get the youngsters to write more.

写作是一项生活技能，每天都会用到，但真正能写好，只有当你亲身投入、持续练习之后才会明白。

It is a life skill, you're using it every single day and it's one of those things which honestly only when you actually dive into it, keep working at it, do you become a good writer.

这真的得靠亲身体验。

It's truly experiential.

这也是我整个写作生涯中最深的体会。

So that's my biggest takeaway from my whole journey as a writer too.

我完全同意，因为我最近写得特别多，越写越觉得，写得越多，水平越高，速度也越快，确实如此。

I totally agree with you because I have been writing so much lately and I find that, you know, the more I get into writing, the more, the better I become and the faster I write as Absolutely.

没错。

Absolutely.

非常感谢你，Havovi。

Well thank you so much Havovi.

这次对话真的非常愉快。

This has been a very, very enjoyable conversation.

谢谢你能来参加这次对话。

Thank you and thank you for having me here.

很高兴能和你分享我的想法。

Wonderful sharing my thoughts.

真的非常感谢。

Really appreciate it.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢收听本期《博士说》，我是Jovina Ang。

Thank you for tuning in to this PhD thinks with me Jovina Ang.

我们下期再见，再见。

Till next time, bye bye now.