Episode 9: Video Games and Motivation

大家好，欢迎收听这个播客系列。

Hi, and welcome to this podcast series.

今天我和张柔娜博士一起探讨。

PhD thinks with me Jovina Ang.

我今天想和博士群体聊一聊。

I'm here to talk to the PhD community.

和这些人的对话让我不断反思，改变了我的思维方式，也让我在领导力和个人成长上受益良多。

Talking to these individuals have challenged me, made me think differently, and helped me grow as a leader and a person.

希望你们也能从我和嘉宾的对话中，学到一两样有用的东西。

And I hope you'll be able take away a thing or two from the conversations with my guests.

通过研究游戏心理学，我相信我们能更深入地理解人们在工作中的动机和行为背后的原因。

So by studying the Psychology of Games, I believe that we can gain insights into what motivates people and why people behave as they do, right, in the context of work.

大家好。

Hello everyone.

本期的嘉宾是吴立伟。

My guest for this episode is Luke Ng.

卢克现任Meta游戏渠道与生态负责人，曾担任首席运营官，同时也是四个孩子的父亲。

Luke is the head of Gaming Channels and Ecosystem at Meta, a former Chief Operating Officer, as well as the father of four children.

卢克，欢迎来到这个播客。

Luke, welcome to the podcast.

嗨，谢谢你，乔维娜。

Hey, thank you, Jovina.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

我听说能上你的邀请名单特别难。

You know, I was told that it's incredibly difficult to get on your invitation list.

所以真的很感谢你把我从候补名单上提了上来。

So thank you so much for bumping me up the waiting list.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

这根本不是真的，不过你这么说真是太客气了。

That is not true at all, but you are so kind to say that.

今天咱们聊游戏，因为你对游戏可是痴迷很久了。

Well, today, we said that we're gonna talk about video games because you have been interested in video games for a very, very long time.

那你跟我们说说，你是怎么爱上游戏的？

So why don't you tell us how did you get interested in video games?

好的。

Sure.

谢谢。

Thank you.

首先，我得先做个说明。

First, let me get the disclaimer out of the way.

对吧？

Right?

今天我说的这些观点，都仅代表我个人。

All the views and opinion expressed today are my own.

对吧？

Right?

不是我雇主的观点或立场，这点很重要。

Not, you know, the opinions or views of my employer.

我觉得这点很重要。

I think that's important.

好的。

Okay.

而且，乔维娜，你知道，我们今天所熟知的电子游戏产业，最初是从街机开始的。

And and, Jovina, as you know, the the video game industry as we know it today really begin life in the arcades.

我不确定你有没有玩过，但我小时候可是经常玩投币式的街机游戏，就跟那时候大多数人一样。

I don't know whether you have played that before, but I grew up playing, you know, coin operated arcade games like the people.

当然玩过。

Course, I did.

当然玩过。

Of course, I did.

是的。

Yeah.

那个

The

《太空侵略者》，你知道的。

the space invaders, you know.

我自认是个休闲玩家，说实话，我玩电子游戏的时间没我孩子那么多。

I really consider myself a casual gamer, and I don't spend as much time as my kids playing video games, I must confess.

来回答你的问题，乔薇娜，让我带你回到过去看看。

Now to answer your question, Jovina, let me take you a trip down memory lane.

好的。

Alright.

我职业生涯一开始其实是做软件开发的，那是二十多年前的事了。

I started my career actually as a software developer, right, more than twenty five years ago.

我最早参与的项目之一，就是开发一个战争模拟系统。

And one of my first projects was to build a wargame simulation system.

对吧？

Right?

你可以把这看作是严肃游戏，有些人也叫它应用型游戏，这类游戏的主要目的不是纯粹的娱乐。

So think of that as a serious game or some people may call it applied game, which is one that is designed for a primary purpose other than pure entertainment.

对吧？

Right?

我们都知道，‘严肃’这个词通常用在教育、国防、医疗、工程这些行业所使用的电子游戏前面。

And we know that the the serious adjective that is generally prepended to refer to video games used by industries like education, you know, defense, health care, engineering.

所以我当年做这个战争模拟系统的时候，它的用途是为军事行动服务的。

So when I was working on the war game simulation system, it's really for the military operation.

对吧？

Right?

就像我们都知道的，在新加坡，我们不会真的去打仗。

So as we know, right, when we we don't go to war in Singapore.

对吧？

Right?

但我们也清楚，军事行动通常具有高度的不稳定性、不确定性、复杂性、模糊性和动态性。

But we know that military operation is typically characterized as volatile, you know, uncertain, complex, ambiguous, and dynamics.

这些特点迫使领导者在决策时必须具备适应性，这一点很重要。

And these characteristics actually force the leader to be among other things adaptable, right, in their decision making ability.

所以战争模拟的主要目的，是让参与者置身于一种模拟环境，这种环境要有足够的真实感，才能提升他们的决策能力或实际决策水平。

So the general purpose of wargaming is really to immerse the participants in some sort of artificial environment, but with the required level of realism to improve their decision making ability or the actual decisions they make.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Yeah.

因为我参与过这个项目，所以我对电子游戏产生了浓厚的兴趣。

So having worked on the project, I I really became very interested in video games.

更具体地说，我对游戏的心理学特别着迷，因为我非常想了解人们在特定环境中——无论是作为个体还是群体——是如何行为的，以及他们这样做的原因。

And and to be more specific and more precise, I became very interested in the psychology of the games because I was really keen to find out the way people behave, right, either as individual or in group in the environment context within which they operate and the reason people behave as they do.

所以我说的‘行为’，乔薇娜，我指的就是他们做出的决定、采取的行动，以及他们之间的互动方式。

So when I say behave, Jovina, I I I literally means the decision they make, you know, the actions they take, and the sort of interactions they engage in.

对吧？

Right?

好的。

Okay.

你能再给我多讲一点吗？

So can you tell me a little bit more?

你在研究玩家心理方面有什么发现？

What did you learn in terms of the psychology the psychology of people playing games?

是的。

Yes.

事实上，我当时特别感兴趣。

In fact, you know, I was intrigued.

对吧？

Right?

我发现很多电子游戏，尤其是多人游戏，其实和职场有很多相似之处。

I was really intrigued with the fact that a lot of video games and and those especially multiplayers, actually, that is very similar, have some a lot in common with workplace.

对吧？

Right?

因为两者都涉及信息收集的有效性和效率。

Because it both involves things like the effectiveness and efficiency of information gathering.

对吧？

Right?

比如信息的处理、共享，还有协调和整合资源，来实现共同目标并取得预期成果。

You know, processing, sharing information, and orchestrating and collaborating with resources to essentially achieve some shared goals and produce some desired outcomes.

对吧？

Right?

所以通过研究游戏心理学，我认为我们可以更好地理解人们在工作中的动机和行为背后的原因。

So by studying the psychology of games, believe that we can gain insights into what motivates people and why people behave as they do, right, in the context of work.

有了这些洞察，像我这样的企业领导者就能更好地塑造组织文化，提升员工投入度——这至关重要——还能提高留存率，引导积极行为，激发文化创新，等等，好处说不完。

And and with the insights, it will help leaders like myself, right, working in corporate to be able to shape organizational culture, increase employee engagement, which is so critical, right, Improve retention rates and drive right behaviors, inspire culture innovation, and and and the list just goes on.

对吧？

Right?

所以发现游戏和工作之间有这么多相似之处，真的很有趣。

So it's very fascinating to know that there is a lot of similarity.

我们在电子游戏中看到的很多东西，其实和职场里发生的情况非常相似。

There's a lot of common between what we see in video games and what's happening in the workplace.

我再问你一个问题，对吧？

Let me ask you also, right?

你在深入了解电子游戏，以及它和职场行为的相似性之后，最独特的发现是什么？

What was one unique insight you got from really learning about video gaming and and the similarity in terms of Yes.

人们在虚拟环境中的表现，和在现实环境中有何不同？

How people, you know, behave in a virtual environment versus in a real environment.

你能分享一个普遍的或者特别的见解吗？

What is one common or unique insight Okay.

有什么是你愿意说出来的？

That you can share?

当然可以。

Absolutely.

我举个例子吧。

Maybe I share with example.

对吧？

Right?

说白了，员工敬业度这个问题，其实很多公司和管理者都特别在意。

You know, something that is close to that is close to the heart of, I would say, many organization or managers is things around employee engagement.

对吧？

Right?

你看统计数据，盖洛普的全球职场状况报告就显示，全球只有15%的员工觉得自己真正投入工作。

So if you look at statistic, the Gallup State of Global Workforce Study, only 15%, only 15% of the global employees feel engaged in a workplace.

如果再细分地区，美国大概是31%，东南亚约19%，而东亚最低，只有6%。

And of course, if you double click and you look at different regions, The US will be 31%, Southeast Asia maybe 19%, and East Asia is probably lowest with 6%.

可问题是，为什么全球85%的员工明明面对企业这么大的投入，却还是觉得工作没劲？

But why is it that 85% of global employees that that respond to the survey feel disengaged in the workplace despite the enormous investment and effort by companies globally.

你有没有想过，为什么玩家在虚拟世界里，反而更愿意主动迎接挑战、不断进步？

Have you ever wondered why gamers, you know, are actually more self motivated to face challenges and grow in the virtual world?

为什么一到工作上，人反而要靠薪水才肯动起来？

And why is it that work when one is paid to do, right?

人们上班只是为了把活儿干完，却几乎没什么投入感；而玩游戏的人明明是自己掏钱，反而特别投入。

And people pay get get get the job done, show so little engagement and games when people actually pay to play are extremely engaging.

这个现象特别有意思，说实话，我们完全可以用一些成熟的人类心理学原理来解释它，我很乐意跟你分享一下我的发现。

So this is actually the phenomena that was quite intriguing and and honestly, we could actually explain that through some very well established, you know, principles of human psychology and and I love to walk you through, you know, some of my findings.

请说吧。

Please,

我从来没想过这个问题——为什么游戏玩家比企业员工更有动力。

actually, because I've never asked myself that question in terms of why are video gamers actually more motivated than employees in the corporate world.

我从来没把这两件事联系起来，所以你一定要说说你的看法。

I've never, like, put the two and two together, but so please share your thoughts.

你说得对。

You're right.

一个是拿工资干活，另一个是自己花钱去玩。

And one is pay and one you have to pay to play.

对吧？

Right?

所以，乔薇娜，有一个理论能帮我们理解人类动机和驱动行为的关键因素，那就是自我决定理论。

So so one one one theory, Jovina, that that actually help us understand human motivation and the key drivers that trigger is actually this theory called Self Determination Theory.

对吧？

Right?

这个理论是爱德华·德西和理查德·瑞安在上世纪八十年代提出的。

It is actually a theory developed by, you know, Edward D'Arcy and, you know, Richard Ryan in the nineteen eighties.

简单来说，

And at at at is very basic level.

对吧？

Right?

自我决定理论讲的是人类与生俱来、普遍存在的三种心理需求。

Self determination theory is about the inert and universal psychological needs of human.

对吧？

Right?

这个理论认为，这三种基本心理需求适用于地球上每一个人。大量研究，包括在游戏和职场中的观察都表明，当这些需求得到满足时，人们就会更有参与感、更有动力，还会产生一系列积极的结果。

And and the theory suggests that there are three basic psychological needs that apply to every person on this planet and multiple studies including video games and the workplace have actually shown that these psychological needs when they are fulfilled, engagement, motivation, and a whole host of positive outcome emerges.

我来给你讲讲这三个方面。

So let me walk you through these three area.

这三个心理需求分别是自主性、胜任感和归属感。

So the three psychological needs are autonomy, competence, and relatedness.

我们先说自主性。

Let's start with autonomy.

自主性指的是一个人能够基于自己的意愿做决定。

So autonomy is about the ability to make decision under one's own volition.

对吧？

Right?

你不是被强迫去做这件事。

You're not forced to do it.

对吧？

Right?

你是出于自己的意愿去做的。

You do it on your own will.

拥有自主性，就是感觉自己能掌控自己能做什么。

And being autonomous is about feeling control and agency over what we can do.

对吧？

Right?

在游戏的语境里，自主性跟玩家是否愿意完成游戏中的任务密切相关。

In the context of gaming, autonomy is tied very closely to a player's willingness to complete a task within the game.

电子游戏的核心是选择，而参与游戏完全是自愿的。

And video game is about choices and participation in a play of video games is voluntary.

对吧？

Right?

除了像测试游戏这类少数情况，总的来说，没人逼着玩家去玩游戏。

Outside a few exceptions like, you know, play testing and so on, but by and large, when people play video game, nobody force them to do that.

对吧？

Right?

但某种程度上，通过给玩家提供选择，让他们决定如何在游戏世界里行动，就能满足这种自主需求。

But to an extent, autonomy can satisfy by giving players choices how they move through the game gaming world.

但在工作环境中，员工能自主决定的空间就有限多了。

However, in the context of work, this is the extent to which employee has the freedom to decide.

对吧？

Right?

他们不喜欢被事无巨细地盯着管。

They don't like to be micromanaged.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，谁都希望在一份工作中，能完成自己的任务、履行职责，而且能自己决定怎么做。

I mean, you you like to to to be in a job where you can complete your task and perform your duties and freedom to decide how you want to get there.

对吧？

Right?

我们一直建议管理者，要激发并保持员工的自主性，关键就在于建立信任。

And I think one of the things that we have been advising managers is that, you know, how do you actually induce autonomy and keep people autonomy is to really build trust.

对吧？

Right?

是的

Yeah.

而且一定要尽量避免事无巨细地干预。

And really try to avoid micromanaging.

到目前为止，你明白我的意思吗？

Does that make sense to you so far?

当然。

Of course.

当然。

Of course.

没错。

Absolutely.

而且

And

另一个方面是能力。

and and the other area is now competence.

我刚才提到了能力感。

So I mentioned competence.

能力感就是你觉得自己擅长做某件事，或者至少希望感受到自己在不断进步。

And competence is really the feeling that you are good at doing something, or at least you want to feel that you are getting better.

当目标的难度刚好匹配你的能力，既不太简单也不太难、不让人望而生畏时，这种需求就得到了满足。

Competent needs are satisfied when the goals challenges our ability without being too easy or without being too difficult or daunting.

对吧？

Right?

换句话说，如果我们决定做一件事，乔薇娜，我们当然希望最终能成功。

In other words, if we choose to do something, Jovina, we want to be able to succeed at doing it.

对吧？

Right?

在游戏里，能力感体现为对挑战和成长的渴望，也就是你做事效率的提升。

In the context of gaming, competence is really the need for challenge and progression in effectiveness.

所以玩家得觉得，我努力想达成的目标是真能实现的，不管是靠游戏里的成长系统，还是靠反复练习，对吧？

So the player must feel like, you know what, the goals that I'm attempting to reach is actually achievable, either through the progression systems within the game or through practice, right, playing the game multiple times.

现在，从员工的角度来看，这关乎他们是否觉得自己在做的事情是有效的，对吧。

Now in the context of what this is the extent to which employees feels effective in what he or she is undertaking, right.

我的意思是，他们必须相信自己能够顺利完成任务和应对挑战，同样重要的是，在整个过程中不断学习和成长，对吧。

I mean, he or she needs to feel that she can successfully address the task and the challenges and and also equally important, constantly learning and growing right throughout the process.

这一点正是我们一直建议管理者去思考的：你怎么确保员工被安排在合适的岗位上呢？

And this is an area that, you know, we have been advising managers to say, you know what, how do you ensure that employees are placed in the correct role, right?

岗位匹配很重要，他们必须接受充分的培训，也要有机会发挥自己的优势和技能，积累经验，这样才能承担越来越多的责任。

There's a good job fit, you know, they must be sufficiently trained and they must be given the opportunity to leverage the strength and and skills to gain experience and so that they can take on more and more responsibility.

对吧？

Right?

是啊，这确实挺有意思的。

So, yeah, it's fascinating.

就像我说的，游戏和工作场所之间有很多相似之处。

Like I said, you know, there's a lot of similarity between game and the workplace.

第三点，Jovina，你先别急着提问，我先说最后一个部分，就是归属感。

And the third piece, Jovina, you know, maybe before you jump in any question, let me just cover on the last piece, which is Relatedness.

这其实关乎我们对人际关系的需求，或者说一种归属感，融入某个群体的感觉。

It is really about our need to experience personal relationship or or some people call it a sense of belonging, right, to a social group.

我觉得，作为人类，我们都希望觉得自己对别人来说是重要的。

And and generally human, I think we want to we feel like we are important to other people.

没错，完全同意。

Oh, absolutely.

在游戏的语境里，归属感体现在我们和队友之间的互动方式上。

I think in in in the context of gaming, relatedness is about how our interactions relate to or affect our teammates.

对吧？

Right?

尤其是玩多人游戏的时候，你怎么和游戏里的角色互动，又怎么和游戏环境互动。

Especially, you know, you play multiplayer games, you know, how do you interact with the characters and how do you interact with the environment within the game.

对吧？

Right?

你希望感受到自己能和队友配合，一起完成任务，达成团队目标，或者击败特别难缠的对手。

So you want to be able to feel that you can work with your team members to complete the mission, you know, to achieve some team oriented goals or or maybe defeat a particularly difficult enemy.

对吧？

Right?

当你实现自己的目标时，别人也实现了他们的目标，整个团队就能共同成功。

And recognizing that when you fulfill your purpose, they fulfill theirs and your team will succeed collectively.

在工作环境中，这指的是员工是否真正感受到自己的工作重点与公司战略保持一致。

Now in the context of work, this is the extent to which employees really appreciate how their priorities align to the organization strategy.

对吧？

Right?

因为你希望所做的事有意义，能和公司目标对上号，明白自己的工作在团队整体目标中处于什么位置。

Because you want to have meaning in the things that you do that align to the company goals and so on, and how the things that you do fit into the bigger picture of what the team is trying to accomplish, you know.

所以我们建议管理者，要想让员工感受到归属感，关键在于推动战略对齐，鼓励团队成员互相反馈，明确分工，共同达成目标。

And that's why we advise managers and say, you know what, in order for you to ensure that the employee feel relatedness, it's really to drive organizational strategy alignment, encouraging team to give feedback to one another and agreeing on who does what to join collective success.

同时也要及时向员工传递信息，比如说：

And and also give information to people to say, you know what?

让大家清楚自己在做什么，这项工作如何与大局相连，又会对其他人产生什么影响。

Tell people what you do and how it relates to the big picture and how it affects others.

所以就是这三个方面：自主性、胜任感和归属感。

So so just these three area, autonomy, competence, and relatedness.

我相信你平时都在实践这三点。

So I'm sure you're practicing all these three

自我决定理论。

Self Determination Theory.

对。

Yes.

理论，是职场发展的基础。

Theory, building blocks for work.

这些方法是怎么帮助你提升领导力的呢？

How has that really helped you to elevate your position as a leader then?

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得，说到人才发展和人员成长，你当然希望做的这些事能有广泛的适用性。

I think, you know, when you think about talent development, people development, I mean, while you want to do things that in, you know, they're scalable across.

对吧？

Right?

但现实中，每个人都不一样。

But but in reality, you know, it's so individual.

对吧？

Right?

所以当你带团队成员时，真的得弄清楚什么能激发他们，他们的内在动力是什么。

So when you work with individual team members, you really need to understand what sort of excites them, what's the intrinsic motivation.

说实话，过去这十年里，我一直在组建团队，一直记着这几点。

And and I have been, you know, honestly, over the last easily ten years, right, as I'm building teams, I keep those in mind.

对吧？

Right?

我始终想着那三个基本的心理需求，然后想：

I keep those, you know, three basic psychological needs in mind and say, you know what?

有些团队成员刚接手新岗位，那该怎么应用自我决定理论呢？

Some team members may be new to the role, you know, how do you actually consider the, you know, the application of self determination theory?

有些人可能特别敏感。

And some people may be very tender.

对吧？

Right?

那你怎么为他们创造新的机会，让他们感到兴奋呢？

And how do you create a new opportunities to get them excited, right?

怎么给他们一个有吸引力的机会，比如让他们主导创新，展现自己的能力等等？

How do you create a compelling opportunity like allowing them to drive innovation, know, to to demonstrate their mastery and so on.

所以这非常个性化，你知道的，乔文。

So it's very, very individual, you know, Joven.

我的意思是，虽然我想告诉你，我们可以用一套方法适用于所有人。

I mean, while I like to tell you that I like to tell you that, you know, we can have one size fits all for everyone.

但你这样其实是对他们不公平。

You're not doing justice, right, to to them.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意你刚才说的，关键是要对每个员工给予个性化的关注。

I totally agree with it, with what you've just said, because everything is about giving that personal focus on the particular employee.

我以前这么做过，看到员工真的成长起来了，因为人都希望觉得自己特别，也值得被重视。

When I've done that in the past, I've seen people really, really flourish because people want to feel special and be careful.

没错。

Absolutely.

为什么

Why

我们不如现在把话题转到生活上？

don't we turn this discussion now to life?

你有四个孩子。

You are a father of four children.

是的。

Yeah.

我只是很好奇。

And I'm just curious.

你会不会用博弈论来对待他们呢？

Do you use game theory on them do

我确实会试着去实践。

I do try to practice.

你知道的，对吧？

As you know, right?

我们都是搞学术的。

We are all academics.

对吧？

Right?

你也知道，我们自己也做过不少研究，我总想着怎么把工作中学到的关键经验用到家里。

You know, we have done, you know, fair bit of research ourselves and I always like to see how I can apply, you know, some of the key learnings that I have, whether as a workplace and how do I use it at home.

我先分享一些想法吧，也许能引出一些问题。

And and one of the things that may maybe I start off, right, you know, just just sharing some some insights, you know, and and maybe, again, tee off some question.

对吧？

Right?

你有没有遇到过这样的人，不管是在职场，还是校友聚餐的饭桌上，总觉得自己见解高人一等，对吧？

You know, have have you ever experienced meeting someone, you know, who could be in the workplace or even at maybe alumni, you know, dining table who seems to have a lot of opinion and always think that they are better than others, right?

或者他们到处都是这种人。

Or they're they're always one of those everywhere.

哪儿都有。

Everywhere.

连我们这儿也是。

Even in our Yeah.

博士圈里也一样。

PhD.

你还记得吧。

It's a remember.

有些人自称超级球迷，觉得自己比教练还懂球。

I mean, some of these people call themselves like super fan sports who think that they are, you know, much better than coaches.

就像你说的，大多数人多多少少都碰上过这种人。

You know, I I think I think like you said, right, most people would have exposed to such people, you know, at one point or another.

我觉得我们看到的这种现象，其实可以用一些广为人知的认知偏差来解释，我就是这么叫的。

And and I think this effect that we are seeing, right, can be explained by, you know, some well known, you know, cognitive bias, what I call.

对吧？

Right?

这就是所谓的达宁-克鲁格效应。

So what we call the Dunning Kugle effect.

对吧？

Right?

这个效应其实挺有名的，是以大卫·达宁和他的研究生贾斯汀·克鲁格命名的，他们上世纪九十年代就提出了这个理论。

And and it's actually quite a well known cognitive biases named after, you know, David Dunning and and his one of his graduate student, right, back in the nineteen nineties, Justin Kruger.

这个效应讲的是，那些在某方面能力不强的人，往往会高估自己的水平。

And the effect really describes how people who aren't very good at something tend to overestimate their skills.

对吧？

Right?

有时候我们管这叫‘沙发专家综合征’。

Or sometimes we call them armchair quarterback syndrome.

对吧？

Right?

而另一些人呢，你知道的，那些真正精通某件事的人，反而常常低估自己。

And then there are people on the other side, and you know this, that how those who are the experts at something tend to sell themselves short.

对吧？

Right?

这叫冒名顶替综合征，你知道的。

And they call impostor syndrome, you know.

所以这个效应其实正好能解释这一点。

So so this actually effect actually explains that.

这挺有意思的。

It's what's interesting.

在最初的那项研究里，他们让参与者做了一系列测试，比如逻辑推理、语法，还有幽默感。

When they did the study the original study, they actually get people to do a test, right, on logical reasoning, grammar, sense of humor.

有趣的是，他们发现，测试得分最低的人，对自己的能力评价却最离谱。

And and interestingly, they found that the people who scored the lowest on the test had the most inflated opinion of their skills.

这意味着他们高估了自己。

That means they overestimate themselves.

对吧？

Right?

平均来看，他们觉得自己表现超过了62%的同行，但实际上只超过了12%。

On average, they believe that they did better than 62% of the peers, but they only outperformed only 12%, you know.

所以在游戏的语境下，那些水平不高或经验不足的人，往往根本不清楚游戏到底能有多深。

So so in the context of gaming, right, those of us who are bad or inexperienced at the game often, you know, lack a true understanding of what's even possible.

对吧？

Right?

我们以为自己知道的那点策略和可能性就是全部了，其实只是冰山一角。

We think that some of this limited strategy and and and possibilities that we know make up the whole picture when we only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

在多人在线竞技游戏里，比如《英雄联盟》，这种例子随处可见。

And we see multiple examples, when you have the multiplayer, you know, online battle arena games like the League of Legends.

对吧？

Right?

很多有竞争力的玩家总是把失败或排名上不去归咎于队友、外部因素，或者干脆怪运气不好，而不是反思自己的能力问题。

Many, many competitive players tend to blame their teammates, to blame outside factors or simply curse bad luck for their losses or their inability to climb the ranking chart instead of their ability that is in question.

我最近读了一本书，作者好像是亚当·格兰特。

And one of the interestingly, I read a book recently, I think, by Adam Grant.

他是一位非常知名的工业与组织心理学家。

He's a very well known, you know, industrial and organizational psychologist.

对吧？

Right?

他在书里提到过这一点。

And and he said this in the book.

对吧？

Right?

随着经验的增长，我们反而渐渐失去了人性。

As we gain experience, we lose some of our humanity.

对吧？

Right?

谦逊。

Humility.

不好意思。

Sorry.

谦逊。

Humility.

而我们往往认为。

And we take yeah.

我们为快速进步感到自豪，这有时会制造一种虚假的精通感，而我们常常对自己的无知毫无察觉。

And and we make pride in rapid progress, which promotes sometimes a false sense of mastery, and we are often ignorant of our own ignorance.

你知道的。

You know?

所以，正如我们所知，乔维娜，知识面越广就越有力量，但要克服达克效应，关键在于尽可能多地充实自己。

So so as we know, Jovina, you know, having more diverse knowledge is is is power, but the key to overcome this dunning cougar effect is actually educating ourselves as much as possible.

对吧？

Right?

所以我特别支持终身学习。

Which is why I'm a huge proponent of lifelong learning.

我也会跟我的孩子们这么说。

And and I tell my kids as well.

对吧？

Right?

只有这样，你们才能应对生活的复杂性。

The only way for you to to be able to to navigate by the complexity of life and so on.

没错。

Yes.

你要不断充实自己，尽可能多地学习，而且要学得广泛些。

You should enrich yourself, learn as much as possible, as diverse as possible.

要克服这种认知偏差，我们首先得意识到自己知识和观点中的盲区，并保持谦逊。

And to overcome this cognitive bias, we really need to first increase our self awareness of the blind spots in our knowledge and opinions and have the humility.

这非常重要。

That is very, very important.

保持谦逊，保持好奇。

Have the humility to stay curious.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Right.

所以一定要保持好奇，主动寻求反馈，别忘了我们每个人都有很多东西要学，任何遇见的人都可能成为我们的老师。

So always stay curious and seek feedback and recognize that we all have so much to learn and we can learn from just anyone we meet.

谢谢你抽出时间。

Well, you for your time.

和你聊天我真的很开心。

I've really enjoyed our conversation.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

感谢收听本期由我，江丽娜主讲的《博士有话说》。

Thank you for tuning in to this PhD Thinks with me, Jovina Ang.

我们下期再见。

Till next time.

再见了。

Bye bye now.