特别篇：蕾切尔·格罗斯与《阴道迷思》

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If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund. No return shipping or restocking fees, every penny back. Upgrade now at washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.

呃。拜托。怎么要这么久？这玩意儿太老旧了。

Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

还在用过时的技术？升级至ThinkPad X1 Carbon。超轻薄、超强性能，专为高效生产力打造，搭载英特尔酷睿Ultra处理器，疾速响应，AI驱动性能让科技顺应您的商务节奏，而非相反。

Still using yesterday's tech? Upgrade to the ThinkPad x one Carbon. Ultra light, ultra powerful, and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed, and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

哇。这机器速度真快。

Woah. This thing moves.

别再对新科技按下贪睡键。登录lenovo.com赢得科技搜索。联想。联想。通过搭载英特尔酷睿Ultra处理器的ThinkPad X1 Carbon解锁AI体验，工作、创作、提升生产力，一机全能。

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search at lenovo.com. Lenovo. Lenovo. Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad x one Carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create, and boost productivity all on one device.

我是《What's Your Problem?》的雅各布·戈尔茨坦。当您从众多供应商处购买商业软件时，成本会不断累积，变得复杂且令人困惑。Odoo解决了这个问题。它是一家提供全套企业应用的公司，处理从会计到库存再到销售的一切事务。Odoo通过一个简单且经济实惠的方式，将所有功能连接在单一平台上。

This is Jacob Goldstein from What's Your Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

您可以在不牺牲所需功能的前提下节省资金。请访问0d00.com查看Odoo。网址是0d00.com。

You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at 0d00.com. That's 0d00.com.

大家好，我是艾琳·威尔士，这里是《这个播客会杀了你》。欢迎回到TPWKY读书俱乐部的另一期节目，我们在这里采访一些超酷的人，询问他们所做的出色工作以及他们撰写的迷人书籍。这是本季最后一期读书俱乐部节目，别担心。

Hi. I'm Erin Welsh, and this is this podcast will kill you. Welcome back to another episode of the TPWKY book club where we interview some of the coolest people ever to ask them about the amazing work they do and the fascinating books they write. This is the last book club episode for this season. Don't worry.

下一季还会有更多精彩内容，而且会非常棒，我想大家都会喜欢的。在本季中，我们进行了一些不可思议的对话。如果您想查看我们已经介绍过的那些书籍，请前往我们的网站 thispodcastwillkillyou.com，在那里您可以找到我们bookshop.org联盟账户的链接，该账户包含各种TPWKY相关书单，当然也包括本季和上一季的读书俱乐部书籍列表。如果您书架上还有空间，不妨看看我们的其他bookshop书单，其中包括我们用于研究常规剧集的书籍，以及以疾病或流行病为主题的小说——我觉得这可以作为一个有趣的起点，用来探讨小说中如何运用疾病元素开展另一个读书俱乐部。

There'll be more for next season, and it is such a great one. I think you all are going to love it. Over the course of this season, we've gotten to have some incredible conversations. And if you would like to check out those books that we've already covered, head on over to our website, this podcast will killyou.com, where you can find a link to our bookshop.org affiliate account, which has all sorts of TPWKY related lists, including, of course, a list that contains the book club books for this and last season. And if you still got room on your bookshelves, check out our other bookshop lists, where we include the books that we use to research our regular episodes plus disease or epidemic themed fiction books, which I feel like could be so much fun to use as a starting point for another book club on how disease is used in fiction.

请告诉我你们的想法。一如既往，我们很乐意听取大家对这些读书俱乐部节目的喜爱程度、你们希望提问的问题、以及对未来书籍推荐的意见，只需将你们的想法发送给我们。最好的方式是通过我们网站上的“联系我们”表格。在介绍本周也是本季最后一本读书俱乐部精选书籍之前，还有最后一件事：恳请大家评分、评论和订阅，这对我们真的很有帮助。

Let me know what you think. As always, we love hearing from you about how you're enjoying these book club episodes, what questions you wish you could ask, recommendations for future books to cover, just send your thoughts our way. The best way to do that is through the contact us form on our website. And one last thing before I introduce this week's book club selection, the last one of the season, and that is a simple request to rate, review, and subscribe. It really helps us out.

好了，播客事务就说到这里。现在来谈谈书籍的事务，以及阴道、子宫、阴蒂、卵巢和许多其他至关重要却未得到应有关注的人体奇妙部位的事务。在本期读书俱乐部节目中，我邀请了获奖科学记者兼作家蕾切尔·格罗斯，来聊聊她的书《一次解剖学之旅》。播客的常听众可能不会惊讶地了解到，女性解剖结构（我承认这不是最精确或准确的术语）与男性生殖系统相比，研究程度显著不足。

Okay. Enough podcast business. Onto the business of books and the business of vaginas and uteri and clitorises and ovaries and so many other crucial and amazing parts of human anatomy that really don't receive the attention they deserve. In this book club episode, I am joined by award winning science journalist and author Rachel Gross to chat about her book, An Anatomical Voyage. Frequent listeners of the podcast probably won't be surprised to learn that female anatomy, which I acknowledge is not the most precise or accurate term, is remarkably understudied compared to the reproductive system of males.

这种差异的根源极其深远，可以追溯到最早的医学文献以及女性如何被视为本质上劣于男性的形态。当然，这不仅仅导致了对女性身体的忽视和认为其无趣——尽管明确地说，这绝对发生过并且仍在发生——它还影响了用于生殖器的语言、我们提出的研究问题、我们创造的科学叙事，以及男性和女性被迫扮演的角色。例如，精子被描绘成试图突破卵子防御盾牌的英雄，在受精过程中独揽所有功劳，被赞颂为攻破堡垒城墙的强者；而子宫内膜在月经期间则被描述为能量和组织的浪费，而非认可其惊人的再生能力。

This disparity has incredibly deep roots going all the way back to the earliest medical texts and how women were perceived to be essentially a lesser form of men. Of course, this didn't translate into just ignoring female bodies and finding them uninteresting, although to be clear, that absolutely did and does happen. It also influenced the language used for genitalia, the research questions that we ask, the scientific narratives we create, and the roles that males and females are forced into. Sperm trying to get past the defensive shield of the egg, giving sperm all the credit in fertilization, inhaling it as the strong hero that breached the walls of the fortress. The endometrium, described as a waste of energy and tissue during menstruation rather than recognized for its incredible regenerative abilities.

阴道仅在与阴茎相关的语境下才被视为重要。甚至‘阴道’这个词本身的意思就是‘鞘’。我们无法摆脱这种性别化和厌女的框架，它已成为我们日常生活的一部分。那么，我们能做些什么呢？

Vaginas seen as relevant only in the context of penises. Even the word vagina means sheath. We cannot escape this gendered and misogynistic framing. It's a part of our everyday lives. And so what can we do?

我们可以学会识别这种对女性身体厌女式框架的根源。我们可以欣赏阴道，而不仅仅将其与阴茎相关联。我们可以重新审视关于生殖器的研究问题，以找出那些基于文化而非生物学基础的假设。我们还可以尝试识别那些我们尚未提出的问题。而最好的开始方式之一，就是阅读《Vagina Obscura》。

We can learn to recognize the roots of this misogynistic framing of female bodies. We can appreciate vaginas not just in relation to penises. We can re examine the research questions we ask about genitalia to seek out assumptions with a cultural but not biological basis. And we can try to identify the questions that we're not asking. And one of the best ways to start is by reading Vagina Obscura.

这本书既引人入胜、鼓舞人心，又令人极度愤怒且富有启发性。在每一章中，格罗斯带领读者探索女性解剖结构的不同部分，她不仅限于人类，还探讨了我们的文化历史和对女性的态度如何影响我们今天对女性解剖学的看法，并重点介绍了一些当今真正杰出的研究人员和医疗专业人士的工作，他们正在彻底改变我们理解和治疗身体的方式——不仅仅是相对于男性，而是作为独立且值得关注、关心和护理的存在。此外，《Vagina Obscura》中的插图简直令人惊叹。那么，广告之后我们马上开始。

This book is simultaneously captivating, inspirational, beyond infuriating, and enlightening. In each chapter, Gross takes readers through a different part of female anatomy, and she doesn't stick to just humans either, and explores how our cultural history and attitudes towards women inform our perspective on female anatomy today, highlighting the work of some truly incredible researchers and medical professionals today who are revolutionizing how we understand and treat our bodies not just in relation to males, but as independent and deserving of interest, attention, and care. Plus, the artwork in Vagina Obscura is simply incredible. So let's get into it right after this break.

说实话，生活难免意外。孩子会打翻东西，宠物会掉毛，意外在所难免。在washablesofas.com找到一款能跟上节奏的沙发。我们的沙发起价仅699美元，内外均可机洗，让你告别污渍，拥抱无忧生活。

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It's time to upgrade to a stress free, mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.

天气转凉，需要更暖的 layers，而 Quince 能满足你的需求。他们的单品精致、舒适，价格合理，让你更新衣橱变得轻而易举。Quince 拥有所有秋季必备的高品质基本款。想想50美元起的100%蒙古羊绒、可水洗的真丝上衣和半裙，以及剪裁完美的牛仔单品。这是一种让你感觉聪明、时尚且毫不费力的衣橱升级。

Cooler weather calls for warmer layers, and Quince has you covered. Their pieces are polished, comfortable, and priced in a way that makes refreshing your closet a no brainer. Quince has all the elevated essentials for fall. Think 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50, washable silk tops and skirts, and perfectly tailored denim. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish, and effortless.

最棒的部分是什么？Quince的所有产品价格仅为同类品牌的一半。通过与顶级工匠直接合作并省去中间商环节，Quince让您无需支付溢价即可享受奢华品质。Quince只与坚持安全、道德制造规范并使用优质面料和工艺的工厂合作。Quince的可水洗真丝吊带背心是我衣橱里的常备单品。

The best part? Everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. Quince only partners with factories that uphold safe, ethical manufacturing practices and use premium fabrics and finishes. Quince's washable silk tank tops are in constant rotation for me.

我常将它们穿在西装外套和毛衣里面，或单独穿着。质感令人惊艳，而且我喜欢它们可以居家水洗的特性。这个秋天，用Quince的持久经典单品保持优雅与舒适。现在访问quince.com斜杠this podcast，即可享受免运费和365天退货保障。记住是quince.com斜杠this podcast，获取免运费和全年退货服务。

I wear them under blazers and sweaters or on their own. The quality feels amazing, and I love that I can wash them at home. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Quince. Right now, go to quince.com slash this podcast to get free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns on your next order. That's quince.com slash this podcast for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns.

Quince.com斜杠this podcast。

Quince.com slash this podcast.

在线经营业务？用GoDaddy的专业工具树立专业形象，打造自主品牌。通过匹配域名的专业邮箱立即赢得客户信任，提升商业信誉，让人知道您是认真的。现在正是最佳时机。立即访问godaddy.com/gd，从众多热门域名中选择适合您的那个。

Running a business online? Look legit and own your own brand with professional tools from GoDaddy. Instantly build trust with your customers and boost your credibility with an email that matches your domain so people know you mean business. There's never been a better time. Just go to godaddy.com/gd now and choose from a wide variety of popular domains to find one that's right for you.

搭配满足所有商务需求的专业邮箱，从日常沟通到邮件营销无所不包。小小投入就能大幅提升可信度。限时优惠：域名+匹配专业邮箱仅需每月99美分，优惠期一年。

Pair that with a professional email that works for all your business needs, from daily communications to email marketing and everything in between. That's a little price for a lot of credibility. For a limited time, get a domain and matching professional email for just 99¢ a month for one year.

立即访问godaddy.com/gd，用GoDaddy树立专业形象。网址：godaddy.com/gd

Go to godaddy.com/gd now and look legit with GoDaddy. That's godaddy.com/gd

现在。再次强调：立即访问godaddy.com/gd。现在正是选择适合您的域名和邮箱的最佳时机。仅限新客户购买，产品自动续费分开计费。具体条款请参见网站。

now. Again, godaddy.com/gd now. There's never been a better time to choose the domain and email that's right for you. New customer purchases only products auto renew separately. See terms on-site.

现在访问Godaddy.com/gd。

Godaddy.com/gd now.

瑞秋，非常感谢你今天能来。能和你讨论你精彩的著作《阴道迷思》让我无比激动。

Rachel, thank you so much for joining me today. I am beyond thrilled to talk about your amazing book, Vagina Obscura.

非常感谢您的邀请。这是我的荣幸，而且谈论阴道话题总是让我兴奋不已。

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure, And I'm always thrilled to talk about vaginas.

我也是，完全一样。我也总是好奇一本书的创作起源。你知道，我经常问：是什么启发了你？你是如何对某个主题产生兴趣的？

I mean, same. Same. I'm always curious too about the origin story of a book. You know, I'm always asking like, what inspired you? How did you become interested in a certain topic?

在《阴道迷思》的引言中，你讲述了那个故事，方式很棒，但也是个令人心惊的故事。不知你是否愿意为我们的听众再讲述一遍？

And in the intro of Vagina Obscura, you tell that story, and you tell it in a great way, but it's also a terrifying story. And I was wondering if you would mind taking our listeners through that.

当然可以。需要说明的是，在这个特定的触发事件之前，我已经思考这个话题有一段时间了。当时我是《史密森尼》杂志的科学版编辑，分配了很多关于生殖健康的报道，比如医学培训以及为何学习女性解剖学基础知识如此缓慢。同时，我还负责一个专栏，介绍历史上被埋没的女性科学家。我开始将这两者联系起来，意识到科学界代表性的缺失可能与对女性身体基础知识的缺乏有关。

Absolutely. So I'll just mention that this was a topic I had been thinking about a while before this particular inciting incident. I was an editor at Smithsonian Magazine covering science, and I was kind of assigning a lot more reproductive health stories, stories about like medical training and why it was taking so long to learn these really basic facts about female anatomy. And at the same time, I was running this column on like unsung female scientists and history. And I was starting to put the two and two together that maybe the lack of representation science had something to do with the lack of basic knowledge about female bodies.

以上就是背景。那时我在《史密森尼》杂志工作，一切如常，却突然得了一种严重的阴道感染——我在书的前言中提到了这件事。非常不适，瘙痒难忍，我形容它为'燃烧的灌木丛'。我去看了妇科医生，并且反复复诊。

So that's the prologue. So there I am at Smithsonian Magazine doing my thing, and I get this wild vaginal infection, which I talk about in the intro of the book. And it's very unpleasant and itchy. I describe it as my burning bush. And I go to the gynecologist, and I keep going back.

而他们能给我的只有同样的抗生素。他们一开始以为是尿路感染，然后又觉得是酵母菌感染。我想我们很多人都经历过这种兜圈子的过程。最后，我的妇科医生基本上就是说，很抱歉，看起来这是一种叫做细菌性阴道病（BV）的问题，是阴道生态系统的紊乱。

And all they can give me is the same antibiotics. They think at first it's a UTI, then they think a yeast infection. I think many of us have gone through this horse and pony show. And eventually, basically, my gynecologist said, I'm sorry. It looks like it's it's something called BV, bacterial vaginosis, which is a disruption in the ecosystem of the vagina.

而且这非常普遍。每三个有阴道的人中就有一个会得。我之前完全不知道，也从没听说过。现在我知道有一大群人都这样。

And it's super common. One in three people with vaginas get it. I had no idea. Had never heard of it. Now I know like a whole cohort of people.

但她说，尽管这很常见，但实际上没有很好的治疗方法。所以我们能提供给你的最后手段就像是灭鼠药。她真的用了‘灭鼠药’这个词，但她说，如果你上网查，就会看到这么写。所以我想先提醒你。我一直记得拿起一个小管子，上面有骷髅头和交叉骨，写着‘有毒’，这个我现在还留着，当时只觉得羞愧。

But she said, although it's so common, there's actually no good cure for it. So the best we can offer you as like a last resort is rat poison. She literally used the word rat poison, but she said like, you'll if you look it up on the Internet, that's what it'll say. So I just wanna warn you. And like I always remember picking up a little tube with a skull and crossbones that said poison on it, which I still have, and just feeling ashamed.

然后你得回家用这个。它是一种阴道栓剂，看起来像药丸，但你要把它放进去，然后躺下，反思自己做了什么。

And then you have to go home and take this. It's a vaginal suppository, so it looks like a pill, but you put it up there and you just, lay on your back and think about what you've done.

天啊。

Oh my god.

所以我这样做了十天。然后接下来我就有点失控了。有一个漫长的夜晚，我半夜醒来，走到浴室，手里拿着药丸。我当时想，我忘了做什么，忘了吃药，然后我就吞下了那个灭鼠药，也就是硼酸。结果我最后进了医院，以为要洗胃，也不知道它会不会要我的命。

So I did that for ten days. And then here's the part where I kind of go off the rails. I had a long night, woke up in the middle of the night, went to my bathroom, and had a pill in my hand basically. I was like, I forgot to do something, forgot to take my medication, and then I swallowed the rat poison, the boric acid. And so basically, I end up in the hospital thinking I'm gonna get my stomach pumped and not knowing whether it's gonna kill me.

因为如果你查硼酸和吞服，确实会找到一大堆研究发现注射致死的情况，比如要打电话给毒物控制中心，小孩不能接触这个。幸运的是，医生说我吞的量除了让我胀气之外没造成其他问题。但那是一次惊吓。正如我在书中写的，那是其中一个时刻，我被推回自己，开始质疑我对自己的身体了解多少。比如，为什么我在用这种我完全不知道是什么、有什么作用、感染是什么的药。

Because if you look up boric acid and ingestion, you do get a ton of studies that find death by injection and like call poison control and like kids shouldn't have this. So it fortunately was not enough to do anything except give me gas, said the doctor. But it was a scare. And as I write in the book, it was one of these moments where I kind of was pushed back upon myself to kind of question what I knew about my own body. Like, why was I taking this medication that I had no idea what it was, what it was doing, what the infection was.

而我呢，作为一个写生殖健康文章、自以为很懂阴道知识、还有个当医生的母亲的人。这让我不禁质疑，如果我拥有所有这些知识却仍然知之甚少，甚至不知道自己有多少不知道的，那么肯定还有成千上万的人需要更多知识——我应该深入探讨这个问题。

And here I am, someone who writes about reproductive health and thinks they know a lot about vaginas, and has a mother who's a doctor. And it just made me question, like, if I have access to all this knowledge and I know so little and don't even know how much I don't know, then certainly there are millions of other people who could use some more knowledge and I should look into that.

完全同意。我觉得这是个绝佳的例子：我们居然找不到比老鼠药更好的治疗方法。难道我们没在研究这个吗？我相信肯定有人在研究，

Absolutely. It was I feel like that's such a great example of we don't have a better treatment than rat poison. Like, are we looking into this? I'm sure people are,

但真的在研究吗？

but aren't we?

确实有人在研究这个。

People looking into this.

比如，你怎么知道？根本没有资金支持。

Like, how you know? There's no funding.

没有资金。没错。那么当你决定要攻克这个课题时，你最初设想的书是如何演变成最终完成的作品的？

There's no funding. Right. And when you decided, okay. I want to tackle this topic. How did that book that you first envisioned sort of turn into the book that you eventually wrote?

哦，我喜欢这个问题。其实从一开始我就知道，这本书注定要成为一场探索女性身体奥秘的奇妙旅程。最初我的构想是类似《海底两万里》或《地心游记》那样的探险故事，所以我早就确定了这个特质。

Oh, I like that question. I think from the very beginning, I knew that it wanted to be that it wanted to be. That the book desired to be a wondrous journey into the female body. And like I was initially thinking like 2,000 leagues under the sea, journey to the center of the earth. So I knew about that quality.

我想我当时没有意识到的是，每一章最终通常都会介绍一位女性LGBT科学家，甚至是研究这个器官并重新构想其可能性的患者。并且这将会与该器官的历史和科学知识相结合，大致从外到内一个器官一个器官地展开。最初，我定下了《女士解剖学》这个名字，并坚信它会成功。但很快就发现这个名字需要太多解释，而且我原本以为它是种俏皮的说法。实际上我指的是十九世纪意大利一位被称为‘女士解剖学家’的女性解剖学家。

I guess what I didn't realize was that each chapter would also end up profiling usually a female LGBT scientist, or even patient who was investigating this organ and reimagining what it could be. And that that would be tied in with the history and science of the organ and that it would go organ by organ kind of from the outside in, roughly. And initially, I settled on the name Lady Anatomy, which I was convinced would work. And it quickly became apparent that it needed too much explanation and that I thought it was tongue in cheek. And I was actually referring to a lady anatomist who was called the lady anatomist in the eighteen hundreds in Italy.

我原本是想借用‘女士医生’这样的术语，但很快就清楚这本书的内容远不止关于女性。它关乎所有拥有这些身体部位的人，很快扩展到包括跨性别女性与男性、双性人以及非二元性别者。所以这个书名显然行不通了。

And I was referring to kind of the, like, the term lady doctor, but it became so clear that the book was about so much more than women. It was about anybody with these body parts. It really expanded quickly to include trans women and men, intersex people, nonbinary people. So that was not gonna work in the title.

当你告诉别人‘我在写一本关于阴道的书’，或者提到你已经写了这本书时，你得到了什么样的反应？我猜你收到了各种预料之中的反应，从各个层面都有。

And when you told people, I'm writing a book about vaginas. I'm writing a book about vaginas at all. Or that you had written this book. What kind of reactions did you get? I expect you got reactions from like all different ends of the, you know, expected reactions.

你说得对。我生活中的人们的反应就像是：‘嗯，你当然会写一本关于阴道的书。’

You would be correct. The people in my life were just like, yeah, of course you're writing a vagina book.

太喜欢这反应了。

Love that.

毫不意外。我妈妈非常兴奋。就像我说的，她是医生，但她一边读着我的草稿，一边学到了很多从未听说过的新知识，对此她非常兴奋。书出版后，她成了我最忠实的支持者。她非常喜欢展示封面，把它送给所有她的老年朋友，比如邻居们，确保每个人都看到，并谈论它——她称它为她的第一个孙子，她唯一的孙子。

Like, not a surprise. My mom was very excited. Like I said, she's a doctor, but she was like reading my draft as I went along and she was learning all new stuff that she'd never heard of and she was very excited about that. And she ended up being my biggest stan when the book came out. She really loved putting the cover out and giving it to all of her senior friends, like, in the neighborhood and making sure that everybody saw it and talking about she called it her her first grandchild, her only grandchild.

所以有那样的反应。当然也有人会笑。其实我挺喜欢这样。我觉得让人发笑能让他们更愿意接受惊喜，这能让他们瞬间有点措手不及，所以我不介意。

So there was that. Definitely people did laugh. And I actually like that. I think that getting someone to laugh gets them to be open to be surprised. It kind of knocks them off kilter for a second, so I don't mind that.

但我确实认为我们的文化中存在一种明显的不适感，一种过于敏感，有时甚至是假正经，让人们不知如何应对。而且我觉得在学术场合或与那些非常保守的老派研究者交谈时，我发现自己会审查自己的语言，只是说‘哦，这是一本关于生殖健康与历史的书’。这非常有趣，因为我们确实面临对‘阴道’一词的大量审查，不得不采取迂回路线。

But I do think there's an obvious discomfort in our culture, a squeamishness, sometimes a prudishness that people don't know how to react. And then I think there were times where I was in a more academic setting or talking to a real buttoned up old school researcher where I found myself, kind of censoring my language and just being like, oh, it's a book on reproductive health and history. And that was really interesting because we did face a lot of censorship of the word vagina and did have to take alternate routes.

哦，非常有趣。你提到了你书的封面和艺术作品，我必须说，我简直着迷了。我想把它贴满我的墙壁。我太喜欢了。

Oh, very interesting. And you mentioned the the cover of your book and the artwork, I just have to say, is I'm obsessed. I want it all over my walls. I love it.

我确实在我沙发后面的墙上贴满了它，而且我可能很快会去纹一个相关的纹身。是的。那是Armando Veve的作品，他是一位获奖插画家，我崇拜他已经有一段时间了。我们曾因《纽约时报》一篇关于避孕药历史的文章而配对合作。自那以后，我基本上‘跟踪’了他一年，直到我拿到一笔资助，才得以请他进来创作这些内部插图。

I do have it all over my walls behind my couch, and I might get a tattoo soon. Yes. That is by Armando Veve, an award winning illustrator that I've been a huge fan of for a while. And we were paired together for a piece on the history of the birth control pill for the New York Times. And since then, I basically was stalking him for a year until I could get a grant to help bring him in and do these interior illustrations.

我们最初实际上考虑的是《爱丽丝梦游仙境》的风格。我想在每一章的开头，会有一小段引文，然后通常还有一幅预示后续内容的小草图。所以它们都是主题草图，我真的很喜欢它们。阴蒂是一个结构非常强大、在土壤中有着深厚根基的形象，我特别喜欢。而它的封面设计初衷，就是让它看起来完全不像你见过的任何一本关于阴道的书。

And we were actually thinking initially of, like, Alice in Wonderland. I think at the beginning of each chapter, there's, like, a little quote and then often a little sketch of what's to come. So they're themed sketches, and I really enjoy them. The clitoris is this really powerful structure with these deep roots in the soil that I love. And then the cover of it was really supposed to look nothing like any vagina book you've ever seen.

所以我真的受够了所有那些粉色的封面，上面要么是拉链拉开，要么是一朵花，你知道的，就像乔治亚·欧姬芙的风格。那种我们已经看腻了。而且我也非常不希望给人留下这只是一本女性书籍的印象。对我来说非常重要的一点是，让人们感到被欢迎，甚至可能感到惊喜，觉得这更像是一本科幻小说的封面。

So I was just really sick of all of these pink covers with, like, a zipper unzipping or, a flower, you know, Georgia O'Keeffe. Like, we've seen that. And I also really didn't wanna give the impression this was just a women's book. It was really important to me that people felt welcomed in and maybe surprised, like this is more the cover you'd expect from a sci fi novel.

我们在这里稍事休息一下。很快回来。

Let's take a quick break here. We'll be back before you know it.

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采用防液体和防污渍面料制成，它们耐孩子折腾、对宠物友好，专为日常生活打造。此外，可更换的布艺罩让您随时为沙发焕新。需要灵活性？我们的模块化设计让您可根据空间随时重新布置沙发，无论是不断增长的家庭活动室还是温馨公寓。同时，它们环保可靠，已获得超过20万满意客户的信赖。

Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly, and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers.

是时候升级到一款无忧无虑、防脏乱的沙发了。立即访问washablesofas.com即可享受优惠。网址是washablesofas.com。优惠可能随时变动，且适用特定限制条款。

It's time to upgrade to a stress free, mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.

在线经营业务？通过GoDaddy的专业工具展现专业形象并拥有自己的品牌。使用与您域名匹配的专业邮箱，立即建立客户信任并提升信誉度，让人们知道您是认真的。现在正是最佳时机。立即访问godaddy.com/gd，从众多热门域名中选择适合您的那个。

Running a business online? Look legit and own your own brand with professional tools from GoDaddy. Instantly build trust with your customers and boost your credibility with an email that matches your domain so people know you mean business. There's never been a better time. Just go to godaddy.com/gd now and choose from a wide variety of popular domains to find one that's right for you.

再搭配一个满足您所有业务需求的专业邮箱，从日常沟通到电子邮件营销及一切中间环节。以微小代价换取巨大信誉。限时优惠，域名及匹配的专业邮箱仅需每月99美分，优惠期一年。

Pair that with a professional email that works for all your business needs, from daily communications to email marketing and everything in between. That's a little price for a lot of credibility. For a limited time, get a domain and matching professional email for just 99¢ a month for one year.

立即访问godaddy.com/gd，用GoDaddy展现专业形象。网址是godaddy.com/gd

Go to godaddy.com/gd now and look legit with GoDaddy. That's godaddy.com/gd

现在。再次提醒，立即访问godaddy.com/gd。选择适合您的域名和邮箱，现在正是最佳时机。仅限新客户购买，产品自动续费单独进行。具体条款请参见网站。

now. Again, godaddy.com/gd now. There's never been a better time to choose the domain and email that's right for you. New customer purchases only products auto renew separately. See terms on-site.

立即访问godaddy.com/gd。

Godaddy.com/gd now.

大家好，我是辛迪·克劳馥，Meaningful Beauty的创始人。嗯，我不知道你们怎么想，但我从来不喜欢听到别人说‘哇，你这个年纪看起来真不错’。为什么要这么说呢？不如直接说你看起来

Hi. I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but, like, I never liked being told, Oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look

在任何年龄、每个年龄段都很棒？

great at any age, every age?

这正是Meaningful Beauty的理念。我们打造的产品让你在当下年龄就能对自己的肌肤充满自信。Meaningful Beauty，每个年龄段的美丽肌肤。了解更多请访问meaningfulbeauty.com。

That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at meaningfulbeauty.com.

欢迎大家回来。我正在与出色的蕾切尔·格罗斯聊她的著作《阴道迷思》。让我们继续探讨更多问题。你在书中讨论了词语的力量，有时一个词仅仅是个词，但有时它承载着更深层的含义，或揭示了一段历史，这解释了我们很多观点或当前偏见。羞耻感是如何被刻进我们用于生殖器或生殖解剖结构的词汇中的？

Welcome back, everyone. I'm here chatting with the wonderful Rachel Gross about her book, Vagina Obscura. Let's get into some more questions. In your book, you discuss sort of the power of words and how a word sometimes is just a word, but other times it carries with it a deeper meaning or it reveals a history that explains so much about our perspective or our current biases. How is shame just carved into the words that we use for our genitalia or our reproductive anatomy?

哦，我觉得你用‘刻’这个词很有趣，因为它确实暗示着某种暴力正在发生。有时这确实是字面意义上的。是的，我认为羞耻的概念与我们用来谈论身体的语言紧密相连。我在研究中多次遇到这种情况。比如，希波克拉底第一次决定命名生殖器时，他在古希腊语中称它们为‘羞耻部位’。

Oh, I think it's very interesting you use the word carved there because it does suggest that some violence is being done. And sometimes that is literally the case. And yes, I do think that the concept of shame is bound up in the language we use to talk about our bodies. And I encountered this so much in my research. Like, the first time that Hippocrates decided to name the genitals, he named them the shame parts in ancient Greek.

从那以后，男性解剖学家一次又一次地持续命名，通常将阴蒂或外阴称为羞耻部位。比如在16世纪，一位法国解剖学家称它为‘羞耻器官’。然后我们有了pudendum，意思是‘你应该为之感到羞耻的部分’。这是一个拉丁术语，实际上至今仍出现在妇科教科书中。所以我不断遇到它，并心想：这到底是怎么回事？

And from then on, it was just like over and over again, male anatomists would continuously name usually the clitoris or the vulva, the shame part. So like in the fifteen hundreds, a French anatomist names it, the shame member. And then we get pudendum, which means the part for which you should be ashamed. And that is a Latin term that is actually in gynecology textbooks today. So I kept encountering it and being like, what the hell?

然后会有一个脚注，底部只写着‘羞耻部位’，好像这就解释了术语。不，根本不是。于是我最终追踪了这一点，因为这成了解剖学中关于是否废除该术语的辩论。顺便说一下，这一切发生的同时，关于邦联纪念碑、拆除有问题的纪念碑和名称的讨论也在进行。所以这非常引人关注。

And then there'd be a footnote and the bottom it would just say the shame parts as if that explained the term. Like, no. So which I ended up following that because it became a debate in anatomy whether to get rid of the term. And and by the way, this was all going on at the same time that the discussion about confederate monuments and taking down problematic monuments and names was going on. So it was very much top of mind.

而且，我清楚地意识到，我们身体里、我们与生俱来的器官中，有许多是以通常属于精英阶层的白人男性名字命名的纪念性结构。数量相当多，其中很多位于骨盆区域。这很奇怪。这只是一个例子。虽然这不是命名问题，但语言如何塑造对话的另一个例证是：卵巢直到17世纪才有了自己的专属名称。

And, you know, it's not lost on me that there are monuments in the body, in the organs we're born with, that are named after generally elite white men. And there are quite a lot of them, and a lot of them are in the pelvis. And that is weird. That's just one example. This isn't a name, but another example of how language can kind of shape the conversation is that the ovaries didn't have their own name until the 1600s.

它们当时只被称为'女性睾丸'。这真实反映了那种认为女性身体是男性身体低级版本的观念，甚至认为它根本不配拥有专属名称。像这样的小语言知识点，总是会强化我正在进行的其他研究，形成相互印证的时刻。

They were just called female testicles. And that really reflected this idea that the female body was a lesser version of the male body, and it didn't really even need its own name. And so things like that were always kind of moments like this little language fact I'm learning reinforces the other research I'm doing.

嗯。就像必须加上限定词——女性解剖学。

Mhmm. Like there has to be a qualification, lady anatomy.

正是如此。所以我现在实际上为《纽约时报》撰写一个关于医学语言的专栏，名为'身体语言'，探讨这些医学术语的起源和历史，以及它们如何影响当今的患者和医生。因为我发现，比如在讨论阴部（pudendum）和阴部神经（至今仍在使用的术语）时，患者可能不了解这个术语，但他们对那个部位确实怀有强烈的羞耻感。

Exactly. Right. So now I actually write a column about medical language for the New York Times. It's called Body Language, and it talks about the origins and history of these little terms, in medicine and how they affect patients and doctors today. Because what I found was, so talking about pudendum and the pudendal nerves, which are still a term, often patients might not be aware of that term, but they do have a lot of shame around that area.

当医生意识到他们所用语言的分量时，就能真正帮助患者放松。我们的谈论方式会产生实际影响。例如，在英国的大规模调查中，有极高比例的女性纯粹因为羞耻或尴尬而避免去看妇科医生。还有人因为感到羞耻而不愿对妇科医生说'阴道'这个词，这显然影响了医疗沟通。我记得最令人震惊的例子是：有次演讲后，一个理科生告诉我，他祖母患过癌症——是一种生殖系统癌症，接受过治疗。在一次慈善活动上，需要根据所患生殖癌类型选择相应颜色的丝带。

And when doctors are aware of kind of the weightedness of the language they use, they can really help patients be at ease. Like, there are actual outcomes to the way we talk about this. Like, in large surveys in Britain, like a huge percentage of women just avoid going to the gynecologist out of shame or embarrassment. And others don't want to say the word vagina to their gynecologist because they are ashamed, which obviously affects medical communication. Actually, most horrifying example of this that I remember is I gave a talk once and, a science student came up to me and said that his grandma, she'd had cancer and she'd had like a reproductive cancer and treatment for it and was at one of those benefits where you pick a ribbon based on the type of reproductive cancer you have.

她不知道应该选哪种颜色。他问：奶奶，您得的是哪种癌症？她说：我不知道。医生告诉我那是'下面那里的癌症'。如果医生都不能用中立的客观术语来称呼我们的身体部位，那我们又该如何看待自己的身体呢？

And she didn't know which color to pick. And he was like, grandma, what kind of cancer did you have? And she said, I don't know. The doctor told me it was down there cancer. Like, if doctors literally can't name our body parts using, I don't know, neutral objective terms, then how are we supposed to think about our bodies?

这只会加剧围绕它的羞耻和沉默。太可怕了。我的天啊。确实。而且你的书里充满了这么多令人惊讶、迷人且具有启示性的信息。

It just reinforces the shame and silence surrounding it. That's horrifying. And I feel like my god. Yeah. And your book is full of so many surprising and fascinating and kind of like revelatory bits of information.

你了解到的最让你惊讶或与你原以为的认知相矛盾的事情是什么？哦。

What thing did you learn that surprised you the most or that contradicted what you thought you knew? Oh.

嗯，有一件事真的完全颠覆了我所受的教育，是在后来关于卵巢和卵子的前沿研究章节中，我了解到有研究表明，也许卵巢并不是在你出生前就停止制造卵子。你知道，生物学教科书和论文开头都有那句话，说女性出生时就拥有她们一生所有的卵子。而这个闭锁过程其实在出生前，当她还是子宫里的胎儿时就开始了。从那时起，卵子就像沙漏一样慢慢流失。看到有卵巢生物学家在挑战这个观点，我真的很惊讶。

Well, one thing that just really like literally contradicted what I was taught was, in a later chapter on this kind of cutting edge research on the ovaries and eggs, I learned that there was research being done that suggested that maybe the ovaries don't stop making eggs when you're when you're born before you're born actually. So, you know, there's that line at the beginning of biology textbooks and papers that says women are born with all the eggs they'll ever have. And this, like, process of atresion begins before birth when she's a fetus in the womb. And from then on, the eggs trickle away like an hourglass. And I was really surprised to see that there were ovarian biologists who were challenging this idea.

他们发现卵巢中有干细胞，就像大多数器官一样，具有再生能力，在某些情况下可能可以制造更多的卵子。这项研究还在进行中，所以有很多需要注意的地方。但这个想法挑战了我对女性身体能力、我们器官潜力的认知，让我意识到我从未质疑过这一点。我只是把它当作福音接受。

And they were finding there were stem cells in the ovaries as there are in most organs that had this regenerative power and that potentially could be making more eggs under certain circumstances. And this is research that's ongoing, so it's something where there's a lot of caveats. But just the idea, I think, challenged my idea of what the female body could do, what our organs were capable of in a way that made me realize I'd never even questioned that. I just took that as gospel.

哦，我是说，这里。我们上一季有一期关于更年期的节目，我很确定我们说了生物学教科书的那句开场白。你知道，你出生时就拥有所有卵子，等等等等。所以我非常着迷地读了你这章关于‘恢复’更年期后卵巢功能的内容。在更年期后‘ revitalize’或恢复卵巢功能是什么意思？

Oh, I mean, here. We, have a menopause episode from our last season where I'm pretty sure we say that exact, you know, opener to the biology textbook. You know, you are born with all the eggs, etcetera, etcetera. And so I was really fascinated to read your chapter on quote unquote restoring ovaries post menopause. What does it mean to revitalize or restore ovarian function after menopause?

关于这项相当有争议的研究，我们有什么数据？

And what data do we have about this quite controversial research?

对。所以当我们谈论‘恢复’或‘ revitalize’卵巢时，这个想法带着一些沉重的包袱。这是这类研究的一个潜在应用。再次强调，这还没有……实际上，有一些有趣的卵巢皮质移植手术已经在女性身上进行，据说可以重新激活卵巢并延迟更年期。但我在那一章中真正做的是将其置于历史背景中，并说，嘿，我们以前经历过这个。

Right. So when we talk about restoring or revitalizing quote unquote the ovaries, that idea comes with some heavy baggage. That is one potential application of this kind of research. And again, this has not been well, actually there is some interesting ovarian cortex transplants that have been done in women that are supposed to again kind of recharge the ovary and delay menopause. But what I talk about in that chapter, what I really do is kind of ground this in historical context and say like, hey, we've been here before.

恢复卵巢活力的历史可以追溯到1910年代，当时江湖骗子试图将猴子卵巢移植到女性卵巢上，承诺她们永恒的青春、女性气质和性能力。这段历史中，这种情况一次又一次地出现，直到1960年代，有一位由制药公司资助的妇科医生写了一本书叫《永远的女性》，说雌激素是保持美貌和青春的关键，这是一种有毒有害的信息，暗示你需要这个，而女性气质是会枯萎或需要被唤醒的东西。所以当我听到这些词时，我确实会有点反感。我也会想到某些类型的整形手术，比如G点手术或阴道紧缩术，这些真的让我……所以这是一点。然而，我认为这项研究的基本想法是，如果卵巢的再生能力比我们给予的认可要强，那么就有可能找到工具来操控它们。对于一些希望如此的人来说，这可能意味着调整你的更年期时间线，这是一个非常有争议的说法。

And the history of revitalizing the ovaries goes back to like the nineteen tens when snake oil salesmen were trying to graft monkey ovaries onto women's ovaries, promising them eternal youthfulness and femininity and sexuality. And this comes back again and again in this history, to the 1960s where you have this book Feminine Forever by a gynecologist funded by pharma who is saying that estrogen is now like the key to maintaining your good looks and your youth forever, which is just a poisonous toxic message that you would need this and that femininity is something that wilts or needs to be revived. So when I hear these words, I do kind of twitch And I also think of certain types of like plastic surgeries like G spot surgery or whatever vaginal tightening that really give me the So that's one thing. However, I think the basic idea of the research is that if the ovaries are more regenerative than we've given them credit for, then it is possible to find tools to manipulate them. And for some who want to, that might mean adjusting your menopause timeline, which is a very controversial thing to say.

是的。绝对是的。我们查阅了那本书以及其中的引文，还有早期激素替代疗法时期的广告语录，特别是针对丈夫们的宣传。真是太精彩了。

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. We we visited that book and quotes from that book and just quotes from like the early days of hormone replacement therapy and the advertisements that were geared towards husbands. And it's Wonderful.

就像是

Just like

你遇到的那个女孩。

the girl you met.

没错。

Yes.

她会再给你做晚餐的。是的。我只是觉得当我们对新技术感到兴奋时，始终需要警惕那种文化背景。我觉得很多这方面缺乏历史意识，就好像，哦，女权主义的新工具。让我们改变身体参数来适应资本主义职场的要求，或者满足终身保持性吸引力的期待，却不质疑为什么。

She'll make you dinner again. Yeah. I just think we always need to be mindful of that kind of cultural context when we, I don't know, get excited about new technologies. I think there's like a lack of sense of history with a lot of this where it's just like, oh, new tools for feminism. Let's change our body's parameters to fit like our capitalist workplace or demands that we be sexually available and attractive for our entire lives without questioning like why.

对吧？为什么？同时也要看看我们来自哪里，展望未来我们可能会如何回顾此刻。是的，完全正确。

Right. Why? And also like, let's look at where we came from and let's look at how we may be looking back on this moment right now. Yeah. Exactly.

是的。长远视角。

Yes. The long view.

所以你在书中首先讨论了阴蒂。首先，什么是阴蒂？

So you begin your book with a discussion on the clitoris. First, what is the clitoris?

很高兴你问这个问题。就我们所知，阴蒂是人体中唯一专门负责快感的器官，而且它是一个相当可观的器官。我想我提到过它是深深扎根的，在科学界经常接触它的人常把它比作冰山。所以人们通常认为能看到或触摸到的小凸起只是其中有趣的部分之一。但实际上那个小凸起不到整个器官的10%，它还有像郁金香球茎一样的结构，实际上包裹着阴道和尿道。

Well, I'm glad you asked. The clitoris is the only organ in any human body that is dedicated just to pleasure as far as we know, and it is a substantial organ. I think I mentioned that it is kind of deeply rooted, and it's often referred to as an iceberg by people who handle it a lot in science. So it is often thought of as the nub that you can see or touch, which is one of the fun parts. But that nub is actually less than 10% of the entire organ, and it has these kind of tulip bulbs, that actually hug the vagina and the urethra.

然后它还有这些向后展开抵住骨盆骨的手臂状结构。它们全部由勃起组织构成，与阴茎中的组织完全相同，基本上是多孔或海绵状的，当你兴奋时会充血并基本上勃起。在解剖学和医学教育的历史中，阴蒂一直被大量讨论、诋毁、忽视、忽略和省略。这是个很长的故事，但我们现在已经有了相当准确的地图。我们可以肯定地说，它是一个相当可观的器官，并且是拥有它的人达到性高潮的中心。

And then it has these arms that flare back against the pelvic bones. And they're all composed of erectile tissue exactly the same as in the penis that basically is like porous or spongy and builds up with blood when you get aroused and essentially erects. And the clitoris has been like much discussed, maligned, neglected, ignored, omitted, in the history of anatomy and medical education. It's a very long story, but we now have pretty accurate maps of it. And we can definitely say that it is a substantial organ and it is the center of orgasm for people who have it.

你能谈谈我们对于阴蒂在快感解剖学中作用的理解最近发生的范式转变吗？

Can you talk about this relatively recent paradigm shift in our understanding of the role that the clitoris plays in the anatomy of pleasure?

是的。确实发生了范式转变。我的意思是，这对我来说是新的或新鲜的，这很可笑，因为拜托，自从我们有阴蒂以来，我们就知道它们感觉很好，也知道它们的用途。就像，你只需要问我们就知道了。

Yeah. There's definitely been a paradigm shift. I mean, it's so funny that this is new or fresh to me because like, come on. As long as we've had clitorises, we've known that they feel great and we've known what they're for. Like, you just need to ask us.

但我经常想到G点。G点对不同的人意味着很多东西。但对我来说，我从小就在女性杂志上一直看到它被描述成一个秘密的神秘按钮，如果你找到了它，你就会拥有强烈的秘密性高潮，那会很棒。所以我总是想，天啊，我找不到它。我不知道我是不是有问题。

But I think I often think about the g spot. And the g spot means a lot of things to a of different people. But to me, I grew up seeing it in women's magazines all the time as this, like, secret mysterious button that if you found it, you would have, like, intense secret orgasms, and it would be great. And so I was always like, man, I can't find it. I don't know if I'm broken.

所以当我开始研究阴蒂，特别是澳大利亚一位名叫海伦·奥康奈尔的泌尿科医生时——她是在医学领域成长起来的，研究了很多阴茎，并意识到阴蒂从未得到过同样的医学关注，以至于当她在女性盆腔区域进行手术时，没有人教她要避开神经或知道神经的位置，相比之下，阴茎手术中这一直是被考虑的。所以她被认为是使用现代工具绘制这座'冰山'地图的人。我的意思是，在她之前有很多人做了很多工作。但人们确实开始问她，G点是什么？它真的存在吗？

And so as I started researching the clitoris and specifically a urologist in Australia named Helen O'Connell, who grows up I mean, comes up in medicine studying a lot of penises and realizes that the same medical attention has never been given to the clitoris to the point that when she does a surgery in the pelvic region on women, she's not taught to spare the nerves or, like, know where the nerves are compared to penile surgeries where that's always considered. So she's the one who's kind of credited with mapping the iceberg with modern tools. I mean, lot of people did a lot of work before her. But people definitely started asking her, what's the G spot? Is it real?

这是个迷思吗？于是她真的去尝试寻找它。她意识到G点很可能就是阴蒂的前部，因为它是一个如此内在的器官。记住，它有点像环抱着阴道。所以那些臂状体和球体交汇的地方，可以说是根部，抱歉。

Is it a myth? And so she actually went in and was like, try to find it. And what she realized was that the G spot is probably the front of the clitoris because it's such an internal organ. And remember, kind of hugs the vagina. So where those arms and bulbs come together, kind of the root, that is sorry.

用图表和图片来解释会容易得多，但它基本上位于阴道内朝向腹部的一侧，约一至两英寸深。它只是阴蒂的一部分，对某些人来说可能更敏感或感觉略有不同，这取决于你的解剖结构、皮肤厚度以及位置。所以基本上，它都是阴蒂的一部分。也许这就是范式转变——阴蒂是核心。这么多年来，我们一直将女性及其性体验分割成一个个独立的盒子，比如谈论阴道高潮（我在书中解释了为什么这些并不存在），以及G点和阴蒂，仿佛这些东西在某种程度上是竞争关系或是不同的部分。

This is so much easier with, like, diagrams and pictures, but it's basically about an inch or two up the vagina on the belly side. It's like a it's just part of the clitoris that for some people might be more sensitive or feel a little different just depending on your anatomy, how thick your skin is, and where it is. So basically, it's all the clitoris. And maybe that's the paradigm shift is that the clitoris is central. And for so many years, we've been carving up women and their sexual experiences into these individual boxes, like talking about vaginal orgasms, which I go into why those don't exist, and the g spot and the clitoris as if these things are somehow competing or different parts.

但对我来说，重要的是它们都是相互关联并作为一个系统运作的。我们的身体知道它在做什么，所有部分都有其存在的意义，并且彼此连接。如果把它们分割开来，就会让人觉得困惑和难以承受。有

But to me, the important thing is that they all are interconnected and work as a system. Like, our body knows what it's doing, and it's all meant to be there and it all connects to the other parts. Like, split up in ways where it's like, oh, it's so confusing and overwhelming. There are

这么多活动部件，就像是，嗯

so many moving parts and it's just like, well

对。嗯，女性身体经常被描述为更复杂、更令人困惑和更晦涩，这也是最终书名的由来。但它并不是。我想说，你只是看它的方式错了。不幸的是，我认为，例如我读到的关于G点的言论，其结果就是让你感到不足或有缺陷。

Right. Well, we are constantly the female body is described as more complex, confusing, and obscure, hence the final title. And it's not. You're just looking at it wrong, I would suggest. And unfortunately, I think that the result of, for instance, the G spot rhetoric I was reading is to make you feel inadequate or broken.

阴道高潮的概念也是如此。一代又一代的女性觉得她们 somehow 不完整，或者她们的身体工作方式不对，因为它们没有按照男性所说的方式工作。男性对其身体的解读与她们自身的感受体验并不相符。

And the same thing with the vaginal orgasm idea. You have generations of women feeling like they are somehow incomplete or their bodies don't work the right way because they're not working the way that men said they should work. And the male interpretation of their body is not lining up with their felt experience.

你的书中有一个非常有趣的部分，你讨论了当阴蒂开始获得更多关注和这种迟来的认可时，阴道在某种程度上被推到了一边，可以这么说。这是如何发生的，或者为什么会发生？为什么阴道应该比它现在得到的更多一点关注？

There was a really interesting part in your book where you discuss how as the clitoris began to get more attention and this long overdue recognition, the vagina was kind of shoved to the side, so to speak. How did that happen or why did that happen? And why does the vagina deserve a bit more of the spotlight than maybe it's getting?

我很高兴你注意到了这一点，其实很多人没发现。当时确实存在阴道高潮与阴蒂高潮的对立讨论。这大致发生在第二波女权主义浪潮中，无疑是对弗洛伊德的回应——正是他提出了阴道高潮的概念。我之所以对这个观念如此反感，是因为性高潮可以发生在任何部位。

I love that you caught that actually. Not many people do. There was definitely a vagina versus clitoris moment going on. It was kind of in second wave feminism, and it was definitely a response to Freud, who is the one who came up with the idea of the vaginal orgasm. And the reason why I get so annoyed with this concept is like, you could have you can feel an orgasm anywhere.

你可以通过任何方式体验高潮，包括阴道。但弗洛伊德提出了二分法：阴道高潮和阴蒂高潮，一种好一种坏。他说要成为成熟健康的女性，必须将阴蒂高潮转移到阴道，因为阴蒂高潮是你紧抓不放的男性气质残余，必须舍弃。所以他可以说是'你的身体有缺陷'这种观念的根源，而事实上身体运作完美无缺。

You can experience it any way, including in the vagina. But he said that there's two things. There's a vaginal orgasm and a clitoral orgasm, and one is good and one is bad. And to become a mature, healthy woman, you have to transfer your clitoral orgasm to your vagina because your clitoral orgasm is your vestiges of masculinity that you're holding on to, that you need to let go of. So he kind of is the root of all of this feeling that your body is broken, which if not, it works perfectly.

第二波女权主义者挑战了这个观念，安娜·科特有一篇著名演讲就叫《阴道高潮的神话》。她们指出：长久以来我们推崇阴道，阴道代表着男性愉悦与生育功能，而阴蒂则象征女性愉悦、独立与完整。所以我们要为阴蒂正名。这种思潮持续至今，比如现在有很多优秀的阴蒂意象创作。

So second wave feminists were the one who challenged this idea, and there's this great speech by Anna Cote that's called it's called the the myth of the vaginal orgasm. And, yeah, and so basically, they say that for so long, we've been elevating the vagina, and the vagina represents, like, male pleasure and reproduction, and the clitoris represents female pleasure and, like, independence and wholeness. And so we're gonna champion the clitoris. And this continues. Like, there are there's a lot of great clitoris imagery.

我自己就收藏着阴蒂造型首饰，我们热爱这个器官。但我想说的是，关键在于这些都是同一系统的组成部分，彼此紧密相连。通过阴道壁当然能以独特美妙的方式感知阴蒂，这与每个人的独特生理结构相关。它们是协同工作的团队，而非敌对关系。

I mean, I myself have clitoris jewelry, and we love this organ. However, I I guess I was saying that to me, the important thing is that this is all part of the same system, and it's super interconnected. And through your vaginal walls, of course, feel the clitoris in beautiful specific ways that are related to your own particular anatomy. And they work together as a team. They are not enemies.

它们是朋友关系。就像从敌人变恋人的故事。

They are friends. It's an enemy to lovers story.

说得太好了。作为有生态学背景的人，我特别欣赏你关于动物世界阴道多样性的讨论。我们对这种多样性（或相对近期才认知的多样性）的新认识，不仅揭示了阴道的奥秘，还反映了怎样的研究偏见？

Oh, yes. Love those. As someone with a background in ecology, I loved your discussions on the incredible vaginal diversity in the animal world. What does our new recognition of this diversity or relatively recent recognition tell us not only about vaginas, but also about our research bias.

其实是非常近期的发现，近得惊人。奇怪的是，关于阴道的那章可能是我最后写的章节。不知为何，我原以为会特别简单——毕竟这是本关于阴道科学的书，但实际写作时发现并非最容易的部分。

Super recent, actually. Shockingly recent. First of all, weirdly, that chapter, like the one that addresses the vagina, was maybe the last chapter I wrote. And for some reason, it was it was I don't know if it's the most it wasn't the most difficult, but I thought it'd be super easy. I was like, is a book about vagina science.

比如，我们要讨论人类阴道，这应该是核心内容。所以让我惊讶的是，阴道章节最终更多是关于动物阴道而非人类阴道，但这确实是一段极其有趣的旅程。我跟随一位名叫帕蒂·布伦南的生物学家，她以研究鸭子阴茎和阴道而闻名，但她的研究远不止于此。她还研究海豚和蛇。我和她一起解剖了蛇的阴蒂，它有两个分叉，因为蛇有两个阴茎，它们是匹配的。

Like, we're gonna talk about the human vagina, and that should be central. So it surprised me that the vagina chapter ended up being more about animal vaginas than human vaginas, but it was it was incredibly fun journey. I follow a biologist named Patty Brennan who became known as the duck penis and vagina researcher, but she is so much more than that. She also does dolphins and snakes. I dissected a snake clitoris with her, which has two prongs because snakes have two penises and they match up.

我们还用牙科乳胶把它做成了一个硅胶棒棒糖。所以，是的，动物阴道的研究非常不足。而且，与一些历史记载相比，这个案例显得尤为明显。这里存在一些更微妙的文化假设。但我打电话给那位首次描述这种奇特鸭子阴茎的男性研究员，问他是否观察过鸭子阴道。

And we made a little silicone, lollipop out of it using dental latex. So, yes, animal vaginas were very understudied. And, like, this one was just really blatant compared to in some of the some of the histories. There are these more subtle cultural assumptions going on. But here I call up the male researcher who, like, first described this crazy duck penis and ask him, did he look at the duck vagina?

他说，没有，我们没费心去看。实际上，很多男性科学家似乎描述了某些物种的阴茎，然后就据此推断雌性的情况，根本没有费心去观察。所以布伦南博士基本上是第一个完整解剖鸭子阴道的人，这听起来令人震惊。

He's like, no. We didn't bother. And literally, a lot of male scientists, it seems, described the penis of certain species and just extrapolated that to the female and didn't bother to look. So Doctor. Brennan is basically the first person to fully dissect a duck vagina, which seems shocking.

它们数量相当多，也相当容易操作——虽然实际上听起来挺难的。但所以，几乎让我觉得没人费心去观察这些阴道似乎不太可信。但如果你查阅文献，雌性动物阴道被描述为被动且几乎乏味。一本教科书中的原话是：雌性是雄性竞争的场地。

They are pretty plentiful, pretty easy to do. I mean, did sound difficult actually. But so, like, it almost didn't sound plausible to me that no one had bothered to look at these vaginas. But if you look in the literature, female animal vaginas are literally described as passive and almost boring. A literal quote in one of the textbooks was that females are the field upon which males compete.

所以它们真的被认为只是真正行动发生的媒介。这让我明白了为什么这些非常基础的研究没有被完成。而事实证明，阴道非常迷人，它们做了很多事情。在某些情况下，根据动物的不同，它们可以储存和拒绝精子。可惜我不是说人类能做到这一点。

So they're really considered just like the medium upon which the real action happens. And that sort of gave me context for why the super basic research wasn't done. And it turns out vaginas are fascinating and they're doing a lot. They can store and reject sperm in some cases depending on which animal. I'm not saying we can do this unfortunately.

但有些阴道看起来像开瓶器，有些像迷宫。如果你观察阴道，最终你会看到很多阴蒂。所以帕蒂最终研究了海豚的阴蒂，它们很大且非常朝前，因此活动频繁。而且，正如我提到的，她还研究了蛇的阴蒂，这些对人们来说真的非常令人惊讶。

But there are ones that look like corkscrews. There are ones that look like labyrinths. And if you're looking at vaginas, you end up looking at a lot of clitorises. So Patty ended up, looking at dolphin clitorises, which are huge and very frontal facing, so they get a lot of action. And is, like I mentioned, looking at clitorises and snakes, things that were really surprising to people.

但我认为这主要是因为他们没有想过，也没有费心去看。所以这确实是非常未被探索的领域。回到你关于这说明了什么男性偏见的问题，我认为这表明了对女性身体及其在科学中的相关性，以及我们应该投入多少资源来研究它们，存在很多假设。这些假设最终被证明是不正确的。我认为部分答案在于让能提出不同问题——有时是非常明显的问题——的声音进入科学界，并给予他们资源和权力去跟进这些问题。

But I think it's kinda because they didn't think about it and didn't bother looking. So it really is very unexplored terrain. So to your question of what this says about male bias, I think it says that there are a lot of assumptions about female bodies and their relevance to the science and how much we should dedicate to studying them. That turned out not to be true. And I think part of the answer is just getting in voices into science who can ask different questions, in some case very obvious questions, and giving them the resources and power to follow them.

仅仅看这些问题本身，比如我们正在提出的研究问题，不仅仅是

Just looking at the questions alone, like what research questions are we asking, not

关于动物，还包括人类，以及即使在今天它如何揭示这种具有极其深远根源的历史偏见。我不会要求你带我们全面了解这些，因为那是书的作用。人们可以去找来看。是的。但我想知道你是否对当今一些研究问题有所思考，我们未能询问关于人类阴道、阴蒂、子宫、子宫内膜等问题，你知道，所有这些不同的方面。

just about animals, but also about humans and how even today it can reveal this historical bias that has such incredibly deep roots. And I won't ask you to, like, take us through all of that because that's what the book is for. People can go find that. Yep. But I was wondering if you had anything anything in mind about some of the research questions today were failing to ask about human vaginas, clitorises, uteruses, endometrium, you know, like all of these different things.

你看到有什么模式在

Are there patterns that you're seeing in

偏见中存在吗？绝对有。女性生殖器官常常被视为作用不大，主要是为了繁殖，或者莫名其妙地容易生病。子宫是所有疾病的根源，这是古希腊文献中的说法。这是一个非常特定的视角。

bias there? Absolutely. The female reproductive organs are often seen as not doing so much and as mainly meant for reproduction or prone to disease for some reason. The uterus is the origin of all diseases, was one of the ancient Greek texts. And that's a very particular lens.

如果你带着这种想法进入研究，你就会发现这些。现在有研究人员开始提出，我认为女性身体比那更具再生能力。我认为这个身体部位在整体健康中扮演的角色比我们给予的认可更多。所以阴道微生物组，也就是我那个小感染的问题，之前并没有真正被认识到它本质上是免疫系统的延伸，是一个类似于肠道微生物组的丰富生态系统，尽管在技术上有所不同。但一旦我们开始研究这个，新的解决方案就出现了，而不是仅仅认为女性容易感染。

And if you come in thinking that, that's what you're going to find. And there are now researchers coming in saying, I think that the female body is more regenerative than that. I think that this body part plays a role in more of overall health than we give it credit for. So the vaginal microbiome, which was my problem with my little infection, was just not really appreciated for being essentially an extension of the immune system and a really rich ecosystem similar to the gut microbiome, although, like, technically quite different. But once we started looking at that, like, new solutions emerge instead of just thinking like, women are prone to infection.

这种情况会发生。没关系。我们不需要解决这个影响三分之一女性的问题。就给她们老鼠药吧。相反，你可能会说，嘿。

This happens. It's fine. We don't need to solve this problem that affects one third of women. Just give them rat poison. Instead, you might say, hey.

我们有一些用于解决肠道微生物组问题的方法。所以粪便移植在2010年代变得非常流行，并且被发现可以解决一些致命的肠道感染。基本上，你通常是通过将一个健康的生态系统移植到一个 struggling 的系统中开始。然后科学继续发展，合成一种更标准化并能达到相同效果的配方。所以最终，大约十年后，阴道科学开始迎头赶上。

There are solutions we use for gut microbiome problems. So fecal transplants became really big in the twenty tens, and they were found to solve some deadly gut infections. And basically what happens is usually you end up you start by transplanting a healthy ecosystem into one that's struggling. And then science moves on to kind of synthesizing a formula that's more standardized and does the same thing. And so finally, like ten years later, vagina science is beginning to catch up.

我写这些试验的目的是进行阴道生态系统移植，本质上是从女性到女性的移植，最终可能会变成类似合成的微生物组补充剂的东西。对我来说，这既显而易见，又能解决一个非常普遍且造成巨大困扰的问题，因为许多这类感染实际上比我经历的要严重得多。这是一个例子。另一个我深入探讨的例子是子宫和子宫内膜异位症。长期以来，子宫内膜异位症一直被视为一种不孕症疾病。

And I write about these trials to do vaginal ecosystem transplants essentially from woman to woman, that likely will end up being like synthesized microbiome supplement kind of thing. This to me is both obvious and is solving a problem that is so common and causing much distress because many of these infections are actually a lot more serious than what I dealt with. So that's an example. Another example I go into a lot is the uterus and endometriosis. So endometriosis for a long time has been viewed as this disease of infertility.

这实际上主要是通过不孕研究获得资助的方式。大多数女性只有在进行不孕检查时才发现自己患有此病。科学家们开始重新将其视为一种全身性疾病，不仅仅与子宫有关，实际上与免疫系统和全身性炎症有关。

That's actually mainly how it's funded through infertility research. And most women only discover they have it when they get an infertility workup. And scientists are beginning to reconceive this as a body wide disease. That's not just to do with the uterus. It actually has to do with the immune system and body wide inflammation.

事实证明，我们已经拥有工具和研究这些问题的研究人员，他们本可以研究子宫。当你引入他们时，你会得到新的解决方案和可能的新药物。因此，类似于子宫内膜异位症被视为纯粹的子宫疾病、纯粹的生殖疾病，子宫本身也常常被视为在不生育时无所作为。就像它的主要目的就是生育。其余时间它就像闲置着等待精子什么的。

And it turns out like we already we have tools and we have researchers who study those things who could be looking at the uterus. And when you bring them in, you get new solutions and possibly new medications. So similar to the way that endometriosis has been looked at as purely a disease of the uterus, purely like a reproductive disease, the uterus itself has often been looked at as just like not doing anything when it's not making a baby. Like that's its main purpose. The rest of the time it's just like sitting fallow waiting to be sperm or something.

但实际上，当你月经时（我们许多人每月都会经历），你的子宫 essentially 每个月都在构建一个新的器官，一个新的内膜，拥有自己的血管。然后身体告诉它必须自我毁灭，这个过程非常血腥，我们都知道。但是，这是一个充满免疫细胞和干细胞的再生过程，在整个人体中相当独特，这种每月持续的再生构建。如果你研究它，你实际上会学到很多关于再生的一般知识，无疤痕伤口愈合，你可能会发现对其他地方有用的干细胞。因此，从再生的角度来看，我认为这开启了新的可能性。

But actually when you menstruate, which many of us do every month, your uterus is essentially building up a new organ, a new lining every single month with its own blood vessels. And then it's the body is telling it that it has to, self destruct, which is very bloody, which we know. But, like, it's a very regenerative process full of immune cells, full of stem cells that's pretty unique in the whole human body, this amount of, like, constant regeneration building up every month. And if you study that, you actually learn a lot about, like, just regeneration in general, scarless wound healing, you find stem cells that you might be useful elsewhere. So looking at it from a lens of regeneration, I think, opens up new possibilities.

然后，就像另一个以不同视角看待女性身体的例子，诊断子宫内膜异位症的一个非常有前景的途径是月经血，通过观察其中独特的生物标志物来发现你是否患有这种可能表明你有子宫内膜异位症的炎症，这种方法简单、丰富、免费且无创，不像手术。

And then just like another example of looking at the female body with a different lens, it's not a really promising avenue to getting that diagnosis for endometriosis is menstrual blood and looking at the unique biomarkers in it to find out if you have this kind of inflammation that might suggest you have endometriosis and that is easy and plentiful and free and noninvasive unlike surgery.

我非常喜欢你关于性别确认手术的那一章，以及这些年来我们取得的进展。在这段时间里，新阴道的构建方法或方式发生了怎样的变化？

I loved your chapter so much on gender affirming surgery and how far we've come over the years. How has the approach or construction of neovaginas changed over this time?

是的。我在书中确实使用了那个词，因为它是你在研究中经常看到的医学术语。但人们可以使用他们喜欢的任何术语。所以那一章为我汇集了许多主题，当我回顾性别确认手术的历史时，它 surprisingly 可以追溯到很远，20世纪30年代在德国就进行了。但当它传到美国时，是在地下进行之后以非常制度化的方式完成的。

Yeah. And I I do use that word in the book because it's sort of like the medical term that you'll often see in research. So but people can use whatever terms they prefer. So that chapter brought together so many themes for me when I looked at the history of gender affirmation surgery, which goes back surprisingly far, was happening in the 1930s in Germany. But when it hit The US, was done like very institutionally after being done underground.

所以约翰霍普金斯大学是第一个为跨性别女性开设提供此类手术的诊所。他们筛选非常、非常严格，并且明确表示其目标不是帮助人们实现对自己身体的个人目标，而是最终让这些女性能够融入社会、拥有丈夫、本质上符合女性特质且不挑战性别二元观念。基本上，就是让社会中任何被视为问题的人消失。如果你采用这种方法，那么阴道的存在意义就是去做你认为女性阴道应该做的事，在当时的情况下就是与丈夫进行插入式性行为。所以我关注的外科医生Marci Bowers博士，她本人是最早成为性别肯定手术医生的跨性别女性之一。

So Johns Hopkins was the first to open a clinic that was offering this to trans women. And it was very, very selective and it made very explicit that its goal was not to help people reach their own goals with their body, but to end up with women who disappeared into society and had husbands and essentially were feminine and didn't rock the gender binary. So basically, make anyone who's a problem in society invisible. And if you go with that approach, then the point of a vagina is to do what you think women's vagina should do, which in this case was have penetrative sex with your husband. So the surgeon I follow, doctor Marci Bowers, who is herself one of the first trans women to be a gender affirmation surgeon.

她会做一个演示，基本上就像在屏幕上放一个悬崖上的洞，大家都笑了，因为她 essentially 就是说，过去的目标就是造个洞。这就够了。然后她继续谈论在她的实践中，阴蒂是多么核心。过去这最多只是个事后考虑，甚至根本不被考虑。而现在关注的是你的体验、你的愉悦、你对自己身体的期望。

She would give a presentation where she basically put like, it's like a hole in a cliff, on the screen and everyone laughs because she's like, essentially, the goal in the past was make a hole. It's good enough. And then she goes on to talk about how in her practice, the clitoris is so central. It used to be an afterthought if it was a thought at all. Now it's about your experience, your pleasure, what you want out of your body.

这真正关乎的是你的内在体验，而不是社会对你的期望。这确实是一个范式的转变，因为它始于患者的目标，而不是社会对女性身体的认知。

It's really about your internal experience, not what society expects of you. And that really is a paradigm shift because it starts with the patient's goals instead of society's understanding of the female body.

所以你谈到的另一点是，我们在性别肯定手术方面已经取得了长足进步，但仍然面临一些挑战，特别是在于，你知道，我们并没有以应有的方式去思考这个问题足够长的时间。在构建或通过手术创建这些阴道时，具体有哪些挑战呢？

So one of the things you talked about too is that, you know, we've come a long way in these gender affirming surgeries, but there are still some challenges just in terms of, like, the fact that we've been, you know, not really thinking about this in these terms for, you know, as long as we should. What are some of the challenges in constructing or surgically creating these these vaginas?

是的。当我们谈论它们时，我就像在想象阴道漂浮着没有系留。但没错。所以这真的很有趣。再次，Bowers医生对此非常直言不讳。

Yeah. When we were talking about them, I'm like picturing vaginas like floating untethered. But yeah. So it's really interesting. Again, doctor Bowers is like pretty explicit about it.

她说，我们基本上拥有所有相同的部件，除了子宫。并且，像她作为妇科医生那样深入理解女性身体部位、外阴的组成部分，以及阴茎的组成部分，她可以真正利用同源结构进行重建，因为阴茎和阴蒂源自完全相同的胚胎结构。你有勃起组织。你有头部或龟头。所以这在手术上实际上非常合理，也让手术变得更容易。

She's like, we essentially contain all the same parts except the uterus. And like by understanding deeply as a gynecologist in her case, what the female body parts, the body parts of the vulva are, and what the parts of the penis are, she can really reconstruct using homologs because the penis and clitoris come from the exact same embryological structures. You have erectile tissue. You have like a head or a glands. So that actually makes a lot of sense surgically and makes the surgery easier.

然而，阴道有许多很酷的功能难以复制，其中之一就是我们讨论过的阴道微生物组。这可以说是阴道特有的。通常，如果你通过手术创建一个阴道，它会有自己的微生物组，这个微生物组会更类似于你用来创建它的身体部位，例如皮肤。所以这可能有所不同。阴道还能自我润滑，这是相当独特的，涉及一个复杂的液体传输过程。

However, the vagina does a lot of cool things that are pretty difficult to replicate, and one is that vaginal microbiome that we talked about. So that is kind of like specific to the vagina. And usually, if you surgically create a vagina, it will have its own microbiome that will be more similar to the part of the body that you use to create it, for instance, the skin. So that might be different. The vagina also self lubricates, which is pretty unique and involves a crazy process of liquid transfer.

所以这也是非常难以重现的。

So that is also very difficult to recreate.

你的书中大量内容突显了多年来我们在医学、生态学或进化研究中存在的各种偏见，以及这些偏见如何渗透到社会或文化对我们身体不同部位的理解中。这让我不禁思考，尽管偏见已经减少，或者我们至少更擅长识别存在的偏见并追溯其根源，但偏见依然存在。同时也让我好奇，未来我们可能会回顾什么？你认为五十年、一百年后，我们会如何看待现在，然后惊叹：真不敢相信我们当时是这么处理的。

There is so much in your book that really highlights the different biases that we've had over the years both in medicine or in ecological or evolutionary research, but also just like how that has kind of spilled into societal or cultural understandings of these different parts of our bodies. And it kind of made me wonder that although bias has gotten reduced or we've gotten better at at least identifying the bias that is there and tracing its roots. There is still bias present. But it also made me wonder, like, what will we look back on potentially? What do you think we will look back on in fifty years time, a hundred years time, something like that and go, I cannot believe we were approaching it this way.

这有点像让你预测未来，不过，是的，我想知道你是否对此有什么想法。

And it's a little bit like asking you to predict the future, but, yeah, I wondered if you had thoughts on that.

是的。我绝对认为我们会回顾过去，并说过去五十年里我们对待或未对待女性更年期的方式严重不足。最初只使用一种激素来解决表面问题，花了很长时间才真正研究其全身性的整体健康影响。而当我们研究时，我们又做错了，导致数百万女性未能使用阴道雌激素。我认为这是女性健康或生殖健康历史上的一大失误。

Yeah. I definitely think we're gonna look back and say that the way that we treated or didn't treat women in menopause for the past fifty years has been grossly inadequate. That the idea of, at first, giving one hormone, to address superficial things, which took forever to actually look at the systemic overall health effects. And when we did look at that, we did it wrong in a way that meant millions of women didn't get vaginal estrogen. I think that is just like a huge misstep in the history of women's health or reproductive health.

我认为这很大程度上与一个事实有关：当你过了生育年龄，妇科就不太关注你了。或者过去是这样，但现在正在改变。我希望社会重新考虑的是对外阴和阴道进行的整形手术数量。我指的是阴道紧缩术、G点 rejuvenation 等，这些词我都加了引号。我在书中没有过多讨论这一点，但它回到了我们正在讨论的完全相同主题。

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that when you're past your reproductive age, gynecology doesn't see you as much. Or in the past that was the case and that is changing. One thing that I hope that society really reconsiders is the amount of plastic surgeries that are done on the vulva and the vagina, I guess I would say. I'm thinking like vaginal tightening, g spot rejuvenation, and I'm using all these words in air quotes. But, like, I didn't talk about this too much in the book, but it goes back to the exact same themes we're talking about.

你的身体是为了你自己，还是为了别人，或者是为了满足某种社会标准或符合某种理想？这种理想从何而来？它反映了你的价值观吗？显然，我们都有个人选择，人们可以做他们想做的任何事情，但我希望更多人质疑那些承诺让你看起来更年轻、增强性生活，或者基本上继续强化对我们自然生殖器羞耻感的手术的泛滥。

Is your body for you, or is it for someone else, or is it to meet some societal standard or fit some ideal? And where does that ideal come from? Does it reflect your values? Obviously, we all have individual choice and people can do whatever they want, but I hope that there's more questioning of the proliferation of surgeries that promise to make you look younger or increase your sex life or basically that continue to reinforce shame around our natural genitals.

雷切尔，我...我真的无言以对。这次对话太有趣了，是我至今最喜欢的对话之一，非常感谢你抽出时间与我聊天。我知道大家和我一样享受这次对话，并想阅读更多内容。所以请务必访问我们的网站 thispodcastwillkillyou.com，我会在那里发布链接，你可以找到《Vagina Obscura》和《Anatomical Voyage》，以及雷切尔网站的链接，其中包括她其他一些精彩作品的链接，这些作品曾发表在《纽约时报》、《科学美国人》、《卫报》等媒体上。

Rachel, I I just I have no words. That was so much fun. One of my favorite conversations so far, and I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. I know that you all enjoyed that as much as I did and want to read more. So you should definitely head to our website, this podcast willkillyou.com, where I'll post a link to where you can find Vagina Obscura and Anatomical Voyage, as well as a link to Rachel's website, which includes links to some of her other incredible writing, which has been published in the New York Times, Scientific American, The Guardian, and others.

别忘了，您可以在我们的网站上查看各种其他很酷的内容，包括但不限于文字记录、隔离鸡尾酒和安慰剂阅读器配方、所有剧集的节目说明和参考文献、商品链接、我们的bookshop.org联盟账户、Goodreads书单、第一手资料表格，以及Bloodmobile的音乐。说到这个，感谢Bloodmobile为本集及我们所有剧集提供音乐。感谢Liana Squawacci和Tom Breifogle进行音频混音，也感谢各位听众的收听。希望您喜欢这期节目，并享受成为TPWKY读书会一员的乐趣。还要一如既往地特别感谢我们出色、了不起的赞助人。

And don't forget, you can check out our website for all sorts of other cool things, including, but not limited to transcripts, Quarantini and Placebo Reader recipes, show notes and references for all of our episodes, links to merch, our bookshop.org affiliate account, our Goodreads list, a firsthand account form, and music by Bloodmobile. Speaking of which, thank you to Bloodmobile for providing the music for this episode and all of our episodes. Thank you to Liana Squawacci and Tom Breifogle for our audio mixing, and thanks to you listeners for listening. I hope you liked this episode and are loving being part of the TPWKY book club. And a special thank you as always to our wonderful, fantastic patrons.

我们非常感激您的支持。那么，下次再见。记得勤洗手。

We appreciate your support so very much. Well, until next time. Keep washing those hands.

生活难免杂乱。我们谈论的是泼洒、污渍、宠物和孩子。但有了Anabay，您再也不必为杂乱烦恼。在washablesofas.com，发现Anabay沙发，这是唯一内外均可机洗的沙发，起价仅699美元。采用防液体和防污渍面料制成。

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids. But with Anabay, you never have to stress about messes again. At washablesofas.com, discover Anabay sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics.

这意味着更少的污渍和更多的安心。为真实生活设计，我们的沙发配有可更换的布艺套，让您随时焕新风格。需要灵活性？我们的模块化设计让您轻松重新布置沙发，非常适合舒适的公寓或宽敞的家。此外，它们环保且经久耐用。

That means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly, perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last.

这就是为什么超过20万满意的客户选择了我们。今天就升级您的空间。立即访问washablesofas.com，带回家一款为生活而造的沙发。那就是washablesofas.com。优惠可能变更，且可能适用某些限制。

That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com. Offers are subject to change, and certain restrictions may apply.

Fox one现已上线。这是一种在同一个地方流媒体播放您所有Fox喜爱内容的新方式。这意味着NFL周日和大学橄榄球比赛、您信任的Fox声音带来的突发新闻，以及您喜爱的节目实时播放，因此不会被剧透。有了Fox one，您能实时获得一切。扣人心弦的玩法、令人惊叹的时刻，以及那种仿佛身临其境的感觉。

Fox one is now live. It's the new way to stream all your Fox favorites all in one place. That means NFL Sundays and college football games, breaking news with the Fox voices you trust, and your favorite shows streamed as they happen so nothing gets spoiled. With Fox one, you get it all live. Edge of your seat plays, jaw dropping moments, and that feeling like you're right there in the action.

今天就开始您的七天试用。优惠可能变更。请访问Fox one查看完整条款和条件。Fox one，我们为直播而生。现正流媒体播放中。

Start your seven day trial today. Offers are subject to change. Go to Fox one for complete terms and conditions. Fox one, we live for live. Streaming now.

唉，拜托。为什么这么慢？这玩意儿也太老古董了。

Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.

还在用昨天的技术？升级到ThinkPad X1 Carbon吧，超轻薄、超强大，专为高效生产力打造，搭载英特尔酷睿Ultra处理器，拥有极速性能和AI驱动的强大表现，让科技跟上你的业务节奏，而不是反过来。

Still using yesterday's tech? Upgrade to the ThinkPad x one Carbon, ultralight, ultrapowerful, and built for serious productivity with Intel Core ultra processors, blazing speed, and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

哇，这东西运行真快。

Woah. This thing moves.

别再对新科技按贪睡键了。在lenovo.com赢得科技搜索。联想。联想。通过搭载英特尔酷睿Ultra处理器的ThinkPad X1 Carbon解锁AI体验，让你在一台设备上工作、创作并提升生产力。

Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search at lenovo.com. Lenovo. Lenovo. Unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad x one Carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create, and boost productivity all on one device.