大卫·克拉考尔谈经济、混沌与人类能动性

我确实有些担忧经济力量，它们在某种意义上和某些领域无疑是创新和人类潜能的非凡动力，但当被少数行为体主导时，也会限制我们的自由。

I do worry a bit that the economic forces, which are in some sense and in some domains extraordinary powers of innovation and and human potential for sure, But also when dominated by a small number of actors, curtail our freedoms.

因此我认为我们正经历一个阶段，在这个阶段中我们感到个人情感在全球范围内受到限制。

And so I think we are going through a phase where we feel our individual feelings are being limited globally.

当然，我在这里就深有体会。

Certainly, I feel that here.

我们必须重新主张我们的自由。

And we have to reassert our liberty.

大家好，欢迎收听本期特别版的《对话真相》播客，我们将通过与最杰出头脑的对话来探索真相。

Hello, everyone, and welcome to this very special edition of Through Conversations podcast, where we explore the truth through conversations with the most brilliant minds.

今天坐在我对面的正是大卫·克拉科瓦尔。

Today, in front of me is no other than David Krakowar.

大卫，非常感谢你今天能来参加节目。

David, thank you so much for joining me today.

谢谢邀请。

Thanks for having me.

在我们开始录制之前，我刚提到世界正变得越来越复杂。

Before we started recording, I was just mentioning how the world is feeling more and more complex.

大卫，你在圣塔菲研究所的工作似乎真正揭示了复杂系统中隐藏的模式。

And it seems as though, David, your work at the Santa Fe Institute really uncovers hidden patterns in complex systems.

我很想了解你的背景和职业生涯，也让我们的听众更好地认识你。

I would love to to know, you know, getting to know you and also for our listeners to get to know your background, your career.

你第一次是在什么时候、以什么意想不到的方式看到复杂性活生生地呈现出来的？

Where did you see the first time ever like complexity come alive in unexpected in an unexpected way?

那件事如何改变了你对生命本质的认知？

How did that change your perception of, you know, what's life really?

我们在地球上试图理解这一切，究竟是为了什么？

What are we doing here on earth trying to make sense of it?

哦，这个问题很难回答。

Oh, it's a that's difficult.

一种回答方式是：我许多从事科学、社会科学或艺术工作的同事都曾有过顿悟时刻——那种豁然开朗的洞察，比如站在一幅画前被其美感震撼，或是第一次在夜空中认出猎户座、看到流星等等。

So one way to answer that is many of my colleagues in sciences or social sciences or in the arts had a moment of epiphany, you know, a sort of blinding insight where they stood in front of a painting and overwhelmed by the beauty of it or they looked at the night sky and saw for the first time Orion and or or a shooting star and so forth.

我完全没有那种经历。

I had none of that.

在我十几岁时，我逐渐意识到世界存在着一种隐藏的结构。

So I it slowly dawned on me in my teens that there was a hidden structure in the world.

我在小说、电影和学校的各种思想中发现了它。

And I found it in novels, in films, in ideas at school.

当时我并未意识到，那种结构其实是一种机制。

And that structure, which I was not aware of at the time, was a kind of mechanism.

现在回想起来，我们或许可以称之为规则系统或算法系统——它们以某种不同于宇宙可理解性的方式，让世界变得可被理解。

We would now call it, I think retrospectively, systems of rules, systems of algorithms that rendered the world intelligible in a certain sense that's different from the way that the universe is intelligible, let's say.

所以从一开始——虽然当时不知道，但现在或许明白了——我的目光和思维就被复杂的现象学、适应性世界所吸引。

So right from the beginning, I didn't know then, but perhaps I know now, that my eye, my mind was drawn to complex phenomenology, the adaptive world.

这也解释了为何我很早就对计算机、算法、自然历史等领域产生了浓厚兴趣。

And hence my interest very early in computers and algorithms and natural history and so on.

这听起来可能有点难以置信，但事实上，我的一生始终与复杂性相伴。

And so it it seems a little bit unbelievable, but but actually, my life has always been absorbed with complexity.

那时我并不知道，现在也几乎不明白，

I didn't know it then, and I barely know it now,

大家好，感谢允许我打断这一期节目。

but Hello, everyone, and thank you for allowing me to interrupt this episode.

我有一个重大消息要立即与大家分享。

I have a huge announcement that I'll be sharing with you just now.

我的处女作《此刻即永恒》现已出版，这是一本关于珍视地球时光的指南。

My first book ever is out now called The Time is Now, a guide to honor your time on earth.

这个历时两年的项目终于面世了。

This was a two year project that's been in the works.

这是一本以严厉之爱教你珍视地球时光的指南。

It's a tough love guide to honor your time on earth.

本书将向你展示如何为真正重要的事物重获时间与精力。

This book will show you how to reclaim your time and energy for what truly matters.

点击节目说明中的链接，你还会看到这个域名：timeisnowbook.com。

Click the link in the show notes, and you're going see also the link to the domain here: timeisnowbook.com.

订购一本。

Order a copy.

为你所爱的人订购一本，我真的很期待你能深入阅读它。

Order a copy for your loved ones, and I'm so excited for you to dive into it.

谢谢。

Thank you.

哇。

Wow.

你提到的那个隐藏结构真的很有趣。

And it's really interesting that hidden structure that you mentioned.

具体是指什么呢？

What is it specifically?

当我们说隐藏的，你知道，在我们之下是拼图的碎片在移动时。

What when we say that hidden, you know, beneath us is moving the pieces of the puzzle.

大卫，我们该如何理解这一点呢？

How, how should we think about that, David?

我的意思是，这是我毕生的追求，但我不确定我是否有一个好的答案。

I mean, that's my whole life pursuit, and I'm not sure I have a good answer.

我知道我对这个问题没有好的答案。

I know I don't have a good answer to that question.

你知道，有一本小说我一直很喜欢。

You know, there is a novel that I always loved.

我...我是个艺术爱好者。

I'm I'm I'm a big fan of of the arts.

这是作家罗伯特·穆索尔的一部小说。

And this is a novel by a writer, Robert Mussol.

书名叫《没有个性的人》。

It's called The Man Without Qualities.

它写于二十世纪四十年代。

It was written in in the nineteen forties.

那本小说基本上探讨了人类在更广阔的社会或自然世界这个大机器背景下，意识体验与神秘体验之间的二元性。

And that novel is basically about the duality between, if you like, the conscious or mystical experience of the human in the context of the larger distributed machine of society or the natural world.

这种在压倒性集体约束面前个体能动性的二元对立及其所催生的形式，正是我所感兴趣的。

And this duality between individual agency in the face of overwhelming collective constraint and the forms that that enables, it's that that I'm interested in.

那就是潜在的结构。

That is the latent structure.

当然，如果你在社会、神话或数学领域追求思想，你会以截然不同的方式与它们互动。

And, of course, if you pursue ideas in society or mythology or mathematics, you somehow engage with those in very different ways.

你会从这个超对象中截取不同的剖面。

You you take different sections through this hyper object.

但大致就是这类东西。

But it's something like that.

这真的很深刻。

That's really deep.

我需要缓一缓，因为生活中确实存在这种能动性的感觉。

I need to take a a moment because there is this sense of agency in life.

对吧？

Right?

但我也一直在想，听完你的话后，我们其实也被一股无法真正掌控的潮流所驱使。

But I also keep thinking that, and after listening to you, it's just we're also being driven by a current that we don't really have any control of.

无论是你说的自然力量还是社会力量，都在推动着我们向某个方向发展。

Be it, like you say, natural forces or societal forces that drive us towards something.

那么这种二元性本身，你会说它限制了我们的能动性去释放真我，还是说它反而释放了我们成为最佳版本的潜力？

And so that duality that in itself, would you say that constrains us on our sense of agency to unleash who we are or that unleashes our abilities to really become our best versions?

因为看起来，受限于物理的自然法则，我们无法随心所欲地成为任何形态。

Because it seems as though we cannot be whatever we want, given the natural laws of physics.

但与此同时，社会法则似乎也以某种方式存在——这些法则在我出生前就已酝酿了上千年。

But at the same time, there seems to be natural laws of society in a way that, you know, exists in in thousand years in the making before I even was born.

是啊。

Yeah.

我想，年轻时我曾冲过浪，虽然技术不怎么样。

I think, you know, when I was younger, I used to surf and not very well.

你知道的，初学者总是会被海浪的力量完全压制。

And as you know, when you begin, you're overwhelmed by the power of the wave.

所以这股潮流确实能击败你。

So the current quite literally defeats you.

慢慢地，你培养了技巧和专长，学会如何利用海浪的力量为自己服务。

And slowly you develop skill and expertise and you learn how to use the force of the wave wave to your advantage.

我认为这个比喻很准确。

And I think that is accurate.

我感觉我们会经历不熟悉的阶段，那时这些潮流和力量令人难以招架，然后又会进入我们以某种方式掌握了驾驭这种力量所需技能的阶段。

I feel as if we go through periods of non familiarity where those currents and forces are overwhelming and then periods where we somehow develop the appropriate skills to harness that power.

我认为这在思想领域也同样适用。

And I think that's true in the world of ideas.

我的意思是，想想看。

I mean, think about it.

当你第一次学习哲学或数学中的复杂概念时，它就像一股浪潮。

When you first learned a difficult concept in philosophy or mathematics, it was like a wave.

就像在问：这是什么？

It's like, what is this?

正如你所说，这个事物在我之前就已存在，并将在我之后继续存在。

As you said, this thing has existed long before me and it will outlive me.

我不确定能否应对它，这有点让人不知所措，但你会逐渐掌握技巧，开始驾驭它的力量。

And I'm not sure I can handle it and it's a bit overwhelming, but you develop the skills, right, to to and you start to harness its power.

我认为这在某种程度上是复杂性的太极之道。

And I think in a way this is the sort of Tai Chi of complexity.

对吧？

Right?

认识到那些并非由你发明却能为人类思想或力量做出微小贡献的事物，并学会驾驭它们——希望是为了善用，推动浪潮或贡献重要思想。

An appreciation of the power of ideas or forces that are not of your own invention that you make a tiny, tiny, tiny contribution to and learning how to harness them, hopefully for good, you know, to further the wave or to to contribute important ideas.

有趣的是，这种对话听起来非常抽象，但我觉得它确实捕捉到了作为一个高度互联世界中的自由主体的某些本质——至少对我而言是这样。

And it's interesting that this kind of dialogue sounds very abstract, I think, but I think it captures, to be honest, at least for me, some essence of what it means to be a free agent in a highly connected world.

确实，我也认为这很抽象，但生命中的主观能动性一直是我思考的主题，通过阅读你的著作，我看到了微小迭代如何演变，如何发展成越来越庞大的复杂系统。

It's yeah, I don't I do see it as abstract, but also, you know, the agency in life, It's been a theme that I've been thinking of and also through reading your work and how small iterations and how evolution changes and become bigger and bigger, you know, complex systems.

在二十一世纪的现阶段，我们似乎正面临着人工智能和技术带来的最大冲击之一——这已被讨论为可能重塑社会运行方式的重大变革。

It seems as though we're facing at this stage of the twenty first century, one of the biggest shocks or, you know, it's been discussed as one of the potentially biggest shocks for how we are gonna move as a society with AI and with technology.

那么将这种思潮作为潜流——姑且这么说吧——个人层面的主观能动性会受到怎样的影响？

And so having that as the undercurrent, let's put it that way, how does a sense of agency on an individual scale become affected?

就像我们录制前提到的，你是否认为自动化或许能让我们重新定义生存的意义，而不仅仅是终日工作？

Do you see it as, you know, right before we were about to record, mentioned that maybe automation will allow for different senses of meaning of what it means to be alive rather than just working all the time.

也许能探索更具创造性的产出。

Maybe exploring more creative outputs.

但我很想听听你对于技术冲击与人性复苏并存的见解，或许未来会出现更多心理学家，更多文森特·马格这样的思想家涌现。

But I would love to hear on your insights on, you know, how the clash of technology, but at the same time, the rise of humanity as well, you know, maybe more psychologists, more we're going to see more Vincent Magogues emerge.

希望他们能主导外包艺术领域。

Hopefully, you know, they own outsourced art.

不过我很想了解你如何看待这种矛盾：既能通过AI一键完成所有事，又要如何发挥我们的创造力。

But I would love to get your insights into this dissonance between, you know, being able to do everything with AI, just a matter of a click, but also leveraging our creativity.

是啊。

Yeah.

这本质上是个亘古不变的议题：从柏拉图《斐德罗篇》到柏格森提出'制造者智人'的概念，技术始终在放大人类的天性与能力。

I mean, is the ancient timeless debate about the role of technology in our lives back to Plato and the Phaedrus through Bergson and his conception of Homo sapiens as Homo father, man the maker, the maker of tools, tools that amplify our dispositions and capabilities.

当然，还有工业革命时期卢德分子对失去有偿劳动威胁的回应。

And and then the response, of course, of the Luddites in the industrial revolution to the threat of the loss of wage labor.

所以这是永恒的议题。

And so it's it's timeless.

我的感觉是，这又回到了我之前关于波浪的比喻，因为这种反应几乎具有周期性。

And my sense is it goes back to my earlier metaphor of the wave because there's almost a cyclicity to this response.

先是兴奋和乌托邦式的幻想乐观主义，很快被现实检验所抑制，最终我们对这些能力的使用会趋于成熟。

A first excitement and a utopian fantastical optimism very quickly subdued by a reality check, and then eventually a maturation of our capabilities in terms of how we use them.

而且，你知道，每当一种新材料被引入体育项目时，所有人都会反对。

And, you know, any anytime a new material is introduced into a sport, everyone objects.

比如网球拍从羊肠线换成尼龙线时，人们觉得世界末日要来了。

You know, you go from cat gut to nylon in a tennis racket, and this is the end of the world.

还有新型棒球棒被认为会削弱人类能力等等。

And a new baseball bat that somehow is eliminating human capability or and and so forth.

我认为我们现在正处于算法和人工智能发展的这个关键时刻，处于悲观与过度乐观之间的临界点。

I think we are exactly that moment with respect to algorithms and AI where where that cusp between pessimism and excessive optimism.

正如我们一贯所为，未来十年我们将适应并逐渐理解其优势与局限。

And we will in the next decade, as we always do, adapt and come to understand its strengths and weaknesses.

序列模型无法做到且永远做不到的事，以及它们总能做得比我们好的方面。

What sequence models cannot do and will never do and things that they will always do well and do better than us.

就像我们的汽车比我们跑得更快那样。

I mean, the way that our automobiles move more quickly than us.

这根本不是问题。

This is not an issue.

所以我持有一个略有不同、用数学术语来说时间常数稍长的观点。

So I have a slightly different, a slightly longer what we would say in a mathematical sense, time constant.

我认为当前时代的趋势——或许因世界互联密度而有所不同——正在加速我们的反应速度，却未能保持应有的审慎。

And I think the tendency of the current moment, perhaps that is different because of the density of connectivity of the world to accelerate our reflexes and not be as thoughtful as we should be.

要知道，就在不到十年前，人们言必称区块链。

And, you know, you just remember it, you know, less than a decade ago, I couldn't have a conversation with someone that wasn't about blockchain.

那时世间仿佛别无他物。

There was nothing else in the world.

它吸走了所有的氧气。

It was sucked up all the oxygen.

而现在没人再谈论它了。

And now no one talks about it.

这并不是因为它不重要。

And it's not because it's not important.

仅仅是因为它正在变得常态化。

It's simply because it's normalizing.

它正成为我们生活中更自然的一部分。

It's becoming something more natural for us.

我认为现在完全相同的现象正在发生。

And I think exactly the same thing will happen now.

因此我发现——那些认为它无关紧要的怀疑者、认为它会毁灭我们的危言耸听者、认为它会带我们进入乌托邦的乐观主义者——他们都在用某种愚蠢的、非历史的视角看待人类这一普遍经历。

And so I find both the the cynics who think it's irrelevant, the alarmists who think it'll destroy us, the optimists who think it'll make us live in a utopia, all of them are sort of a foolish, ahistorical perspective on what is a universal experience of humans.

哇。

Wow.

是啊。

Yeah.

作为Z世代的一员，我亲眼目睹了许多同龄人如何应对你提到的这种周期不理解现象，以及我们这代人乃至全社会面临的巨大不确定性——那些所谓的'旧工作'将如何岌岌可危。

And as part of Gen Z, I've been witnessing how a lot of, of my fellow peers in my generation have deal dealt with, you know, not understanding the cycle that you mentioned and how a lot of uncertainty, not only for my generation, but everywhere, how quote unquote old jobs are going to be in jeopardy.

所有工作都会被取代。

All the jobs are going to be replaced.

所以我也想听听听众中25到44岁这个年龄段朋友们的想法。

So, you know, I would love to hear also for our listeners who are around like 25, 44 years old, that's like kind of like the range.

向所有正在收听的你们致敬。

So shout out to all of you listening now.

在这个你提到的'关键过渡期'——大卫所说的'要么全面繁荣要么彻底崩溃'的十字路口，我们究竟该以哪些理念、哪些支柱、哪些第一性原理作为锚点？

It's how what ideas, what pillars, what first principles should we anchor ourselves to when we're dealing with these pivotal moment, quote unquote, that this in between that you mentioned, David, of, you know, this will all go to boom or this will all go to bust.

我该如何运用自身力量，扎根于对这些周期规律的认知？

How can I harness my own power and my and ground myself into understanding how these cycles behave?

我的意思是，重申一次，我并没有什么万能解药。

I mean, again, I don't have any panaceas.

我主张深思熟虑和反思，并让自己定期从纷扰中抽离。

I I'm an advocate of thoughtfulness and reflection and removing oneself for periods of time from the fray.

在这种强烈的信息轰炸下很难进行思考。

It's very difficult to think in the face of this kind of intense illumination.

对吧？

Right?

让我从历史角度稍微阐述一下，或许会有帮助。

You know, I let me just put it a little bit in historical perspective because it might help.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我在牛津时非常敬仰人文主义哲学家以赛亚·伯林。

One of my someone I greatly admired when I was at Oxford was the humanist philosopher Isaiah Berlin.

我曾参加过他在万灵学院举办的研讨会。

And I would attend his seminars at All Souls College.

他对于伏尔泰（众所周知是牛顿的拥护者）与数学家埃米莉·沙特莱之间的对比研究非常有趣。

He was very interesting in the contrast between Voltaire, who was, as you probably know, a champion of Newton with the mathematician Emily de Chatelet.

他们写了一本关于《自然哲学的数学原理》的书，并认为牛顿式的推理方式应渗透到整个社会，这成为了贯穿启蒙运动的重要线索之一。

They wrote a book on the on the on the Principia and believed that the Newtonian style of reasoning should permeate all of society, and that became one of the the important threads running through the enlightenment.

与伏尔泰形成对比的是维柯，这位那不勒斯的意大利历史理论家，他不认为历史是进步的，也不认为历史是科学的，而是将其视为循环的，认为存在我们更倾向于神话、神学的阶段，也存在我们更迷恋理性的阶段。

In contrast to Voltaire was Vico, the Neapolitan Italian, theorist of history, who didn't see history as being progressive, who didn't see history as being scientific, but viewed it as cyclical and thought that there were phases when we were more mythical, theological, and there were phases where we tended towards being more enamored of reason.

这些阶段会循环往复。

And these would cycle.

不得不说，我认为当前这个时代矛盾地具有宗教色彩。

And I have to say, I think of the current moment as paradoxically religious.

它在科学技术的基础上构建了一种有神论的形而上学特征。

It has a kind of theistic metaphysical character built on top of a scientific technological foundation.

而我们现在的对话非常具有千禧年主义色彩。

And the dialogues that we're having now are very millenarian.

世界末日因被我们无法控制的人工智能主宰而到来。

The end of the world by virtue of being dominated by an AI out of our control.

这完全是弥尔顿式的。

This is entirely Miltonic.

对吧？

Right?

这不是一场科学辩论。

This is not a scientific debate.

因此，一种思考方式是：我们实际上正在经历一个非常宗教化的时刻，而我们这个社会缺乏共同信仰，结果在技术中找到了寄托。

And so one way to think about it is we're actually going through a very religious moment in a society that's so bereft of a common shared belief that we found it in a technology.

我认为我们在工业革命时期就已在技术中找到了这种寄托。

And I think we found it in technology in the industrial revolution.

我们只需接受这种周期性循环，并以更理性的态度面对这个问题——这需要更多反思和深思熟虑，让自己稍微远离新闻循环，毕竟新闻本质上是一种广告媒介而非真相载体。

And we'll just have to come to terms with that cyclicity and approach this problem with greater reason which requires reflection and more thoughtfulness, removing ourselves a little bit from the news cycle, which is basically an advertising medium as opposed to a medium of truth.

同时我很激动地宣布，我将开放会员专属频道，你们可以提前收听节目。

And I'm excited to also announce that I'm gonna open through conversations to a member's exclusive section only, where you'll be able to access episodes earlier.

我会为你们准备超多专属福利，我自己都迫不及待了。

I'm gonna create so many perks for you that I'm excited for.

我一直想提供最大价值，一直在思考如何实现这个目标。

I wanted to get the best value possible and I've been thinking on how to do it.

我想让你能提前观看视频内容。

I wanna give you access to early videos.

我还想让你能实时观看我录制访谈的过程。

I wanna give you also access to when I record an interview that you have access real time to just watch while we record.

同时还能进行直播互动，你可以随时加入，向你最喜欢的嘉宾或尚未熟识但想了解的嘉宾提问。

And also to have a live stream, meaning that you can tune in and ask your own questions, your Q and A to some of your favorite guests, and also some of the guests that you don't really know yet, but you would love to to hear.

这样一来，你也能以某种方式参与其中，既支持了播客，又能更深入地关注它的成功。

And also that way, you have some sort of skin in the game as you're supporting the podcast in some way and you're more invested in the success of it.

我对此感到非常兴奋。

And so I'm excited for this.

哇。

Wow.

我邀请了多伦多大学的心理学家约翰·伯维克教授。

I've hosted professor John Berveke.

他每次来做客时都会提到，我们正面临一场意义危机。

He's a psychologist from the University of Toronto and he always, when he comes to the show, he mentions that we're dealing with a meaning crisis.

二十一世纪就像我们只是行走的僵尸，试图在一切事物中寻找意义。

That the twenty first century is like as if we were just walking zombies trying to find meaning in everything.

现在我听你说到，我们正在应对的技术运动的宗教性。

And now that I listened to you say, you know, the religiosity of the technological movements that we're dealing with.

你是否认为这是我们在试图重新抓住生活中的意义，无论出于何种原因，即使这种意义来自末日论调——比如AI将主宰我们的生活，你是否看到年轻一代乃至整个社会都在试图抓住任何大型运动、社会运动或其他形式的运动，以回归我们生活中真正寻求意义的那部分？

Do you see it as a grasp for us trying to get back that meaning in our lives for whatever reason, just even if that meaning comes from being doomer in the sense that AI will conquer our lives, do you see younger generations and just society as a whole just trying to grasp for whatever huge movement, social movement, whatever movement to get back to that, you know, that part of our lives that's, you know, that really seeks meaning.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

我对此了解不够。

I I don't know enough about this.

我表示怀疑。

I I doubt.

我的观点可能没那么悲观。

I I I have a slightly less pessimistic, I think, view.

你知道，我对历史很感兴趣。

You know, I'm interested in history.

我阅读了几个世纪以来撰写的书籍，它们让我感到非常熟悉。

I read books written over the centuries, and they seem very familiar to me.

比如我读荷马史诗时，感觉就像——没错。

I mean, I read Homer and it's like, yes.

我懂。

I understand.

明白吗？

You know?

而当我读拉伯雷时，我也会说——是的。

And I read Rabbile and I say, yes.

我理解。

I understand.

所以我并不觉得与时代脱节。

So I don't feel out of time.

因此我认为人类始终在追寻意义。

And so I think humans have always searched for meaning.

我不认为这是一种新体验。

I don't I don't think that's a a new experience.

而且我认为我们总是对光鲜亮丽的新事物充满狂热和过度热情。

And I think we've always been faddish and overly enthusiastic about glossy new things.

你看，我们曾经对郁金香疯狂过，那很惊人，对吧。

You know, we had it for tulips, you know, and that's amazing, you know.

现在我们又对人工智能狂热，可以说这更令人印象深刻。

Now we have it for AI, which is arguably more impressive.

因此我对这一点没那么愤世嫉俗了。

So I'm I'm I'm slightly less cynical about that.

我确实认为我们的——这也是我正在研究的课题。

I do think that our and this is what I work on, course.

我对智能的进化及其追求目标很感兴趣。

I'm interested in the evolution of intelligence and what it seeks.

确实，智能系统会寻求最小化能量消耗。

And it is true that intelligent systems seek to minimize energy expenditure.

这就是我们使用计算器的原因。

And that's why we use calculators.

这就是我们开车的原因。

That's why we drive cars.

我们并非在减少地球的能源消耗——远非如此，而是为了我们自己。

We're not in minimizing energy expenditure in the planet far from it, but for ourselves.

只要智能系统能最小化我们需要进行的认知劳动，我们就会热切地追求它。

And to the extent that an intelligent system will minimize the amount of cognitive work we have to perform, we will pursue it with alacrity.

同样真实的是，历史上我们从未像现在这样拥有如此类人思维的机器。

And it is also true that historically we haven't had access to such mind like machines as we do now.

因此，这个时刻的特性与众不同。

And so the character of this moment is different.

比如在工业革命时期，替代体力劳动的是蒸汽机。

So, you know, in the industrial revolution, it would have been steam engines as opposed to manual labor.

而现在替代脑力劳动的则是算法。

And now it's algorithms as opposed to mental labor.

鉴于我们如此重视人类作为智慧物种的独特性，我认为哲学家们必须认真思考这一新特性。

And given that we place so much store in the unique characteristics of our species as intellectual, then it takes on a new character that I think the philosophers have to reckon with.

我承认这是新事物。

And and I would accept that as new.

但我绝不接受我们是行尸走肉的说法。

But I do not accept that we're zombies.

我认为只要有机会，人们就会进行深度思考。

I think that people are deeply thoughtful when given the chance.

我们正在应对这个真实的历史时刻。

And we are wrestling with the real moment.

这不是人为构建的假象。

It's not an artificial construct.

你提到能量消耗，大卫，我在准备这次采访时就在思考如何将进化论、熵等概念与人工智能联系起来。

You mentioned energy expenditure and, you know, rehearsing in my mind, this interview with you, David, I was thinking on, you know, connecting evolution and entropy, that sort of ideas with A.

我当然...

I, of course.

当然，我非常想听听你对此的看法。

And of course, you I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

你是否认为这就像当我听你说时，我们似乎是在无意识地驱使自己去降低熵值，试图真正减少我们消耗的能量？

Do you think that's really this it's sort of like when I when I listen to you to say it's it's we're like unconsciously driving ourselves to reduce the entropy to try to really reduce the energy that we're expanding.

那么你认为我们试图将意识转移到这些人工智能系统中的整个运动是什么？

So do you see the whole movement of us trying to transfer our consciousness into these AI systems?

你看，一旦我们变成机器人，你会认为这只是我们无意识想要减少能量消耗的欲望吗？

You know, once we become robots, you see that as the unconscious desire for us to just reduce energy?

你认为这是人类进化的下一个飞跃吗？

Do you see that as the next leap in human evolution?

好吧，让我稍微解释一下智力、能量和熵的关系。

Well, so let me explain a little bit about intelligence and energy and entropy.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我们的智能系统，这一点我已经多次强调过。

Our intelligence systems and I and I've made this point many times.

我完全不认为人工智能具有智能，我应该解释一下原因。

I don't consider AI intelligent at all, and I should I should explain why.

我认为它们非常能干且非常有用。

I consider them very capable and very useful.

只是它们并不智能。

Just they're not intelligent.

智能是通过某种方式发现解决问题的高效方法，无论你是运动员、工匠、研究人员。

Intelligence is discovering by some means whether you're an athlete, an artisan, you know, researcher, an elegant means of solving a problem.

当你开始从事一项运动时，你会消耗大量能量却表现不佳。

You know, when you start playing a sport, you expend a huge amount of energy to underperform.

随着技术进步，你学会如何用最少的能量消耗取得好成绩。

As you get better, you learn how to minimize your expenditure of energy to do well.

所以如果你去看足球比赛或任何你喜欢的运动，优秀选手和差劲选手的区别非常明显。

So if you go and watch a football game or whatever your favorite sport is, the difference in a good player and a bad player is very obvious.

优秀选手只需付出极少努力，就能完成非凡之事。

The good player expend expends very little effort or seems to to do an extraordinary thing.

这正是所有系统中智能的特征。

And that is the characteristic of intelligence in every system.

因此，杰出的数学家并不像平庸者那样费力工作。

So a brilliant mathematician doesn't work as hard as a bad one.

这就是为什么人工智能不具备智能。

This is why AI is not intelligent.

因为智能意味着优雅、极简、高效，以最小努力达成目标。

Because intelligence means elegance, minimality, efficiency, a minimal expenditure of effort to accomplish a goal.

这个道理在诗歌和物理学中自古就被反复验证。

And this has been known forever and ever and ever in poetry and physics.

而人工智能则是吞噬能量的庞然大物，只为达成那确实非凡的能力。

And then AI is a huge monster of an energy suck to accomplish what would be admittedly an extraordinary capability.

再次强调，我并非要贬低这种能力。

And again, I don't want to minimize the capability.

因此，在生命的历史进程中，当我们创造机器时，我们发现了一种能力强大却效率低下的解决问题方式。

And so what happened in the history of life is as we created machines, we we discovered very capable means of solving problems very inefficiently.

飞机就是这样的例子。

That's what an airplane is.

汽车也是如此。

That's what a car is.

人工智能同样遵循这一模式。

That's what an AI is.

这与我们形成鲜明对比。

And it stands in contrast to us.

正如我的同事杰弗里·韦斯特所说，我们就像电灯泡。

As my colleague Jeffrey West says, we're light bulbs.

我们仅消耗100瓦的功率。

We went on a 100 watts.

你明白吗？

You know?

你无法比生命更高效，对吧？

You couldn't be more efficient, right, than life.

因此从这个意义上说，人工智能革命是延续了以极低效率实现高能力的方式。

And so in that sense, the AI revolution is a continuation of the highly inefficient means of attaining high capability.

这是不可持续的。

Now that is not sustainable.

之所以重要，是因为考虑到地球资源有限、分配极度不均以及我们亲身经历的巨大不公，我们现在需要反思这两类机器——进化造就的与我们设计的——之间的差异。

And so the reason it matters is given the finite resources of the earth, their very unequal distribution, the enormous unfairness of life as we experience it, We need to reflect now on that divergence between these two kinds of machines, the one that evolution made and the ones that we engineered.

老实说，我认为关于这方面的思考还远远不够，因为这些讨论往往被分割在各个学科领域。

And I don't think there's been enough thought about that to be honest because these debates tend to get segregated into departments.

政治学家或经济学家会发表意见，但我觉得我们需要——至少对我而言这就是复杂性的意义所在——

Know, political scientists weigh in on it or economists weigh in and or or, you know and I feel that we need and this is why complexity matters to me at least.

我们需要一种相当深思熟虑的方式，来整合所有关于进化世界与人工世界差异的视角。

We need a a a fairly thoughtful way of integrating all of those perspectives on the divergence between the evolved and the engineered world.

遗憾的是，我认为目前还缺乏一个供此类讨论的论坛。

And I think that there isn't much of a forum for that at the moment, unfortunately.

你认为这是为什么呢？

Why do you think that is?

为什么我们还没能，比如说，因为我知道圣塔菲研究所在那方面并没有真正意义上的部门划分。

Why why are we haven't we been able to, you know, come into for example, because I know that on Santa Fe Institute, there is not really departments in that sense.

是啊。

Yeah.

你们成功建立联系了吗？

Have you been able to connect?

嗯，我们尝试过。

Well, we've fated.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，这相当有趣。

You know, it's quite interesting.

我之前提到过柏格森的《创造进化论》。

I I mentioned earlier Bergson's Homer Farber.

你知道吗，这很有趣，因为我有一位同事，我们刚合著了一本书。

You know, it's funny because I have a colleague and I have just written a book.

这本书名为《三角形之书》。

And this book is called the Book of Triangles.

它将于2026年由麻省理工学院出版。

And it'll be published by MIT in 2026.

书中探讨的是善、美、真，或者说伦理、证据与美学。

And it's on goodness, beauty, and truth or ethics, evidence, and aesthetics.

如果你回顾历史，这些常被称为三大超越性理念。

And if you look back at history, these are these are often called the three transcendentals.

西塔学派曾论述过这些概念。

The Theta talks about them.

亚里士多德也讨论过它们。

Aristotle talks about them.

西蒙·韦同样对此有所阐述。

Simon Wei talks about them.

查尔斯·皮尔斯也讨论过这些。

Charles Pierce talks about them.

克尔凯郭尔也讨论过这些。

Kierkegaard talks about them.

它们无处不在。

They're they're they're everywhere.

对吧？

Right?

当我们的物种被命名时，林奈给我们取名为智人（Homo sapiens），意为智慧的人类。

And when our species was named, Linnaeus gave us the name Homo sapiens, wise humans.

正如我之前提到的，博胡森后来指出，我们并不智慧。

And as I referred to earlier, Bohosund came along and said, we're not wise.

我们是工具制造者。

We're toolmakers.

另一位杰出的思想家胡辛格则说，我们不是工具制造者。

Another extraordinary thinker, Hussinger, said, we're not toolmakers.

我们是模拟者。

We're simulators.

我们喜欢模拟不同的规则体系。

We like to simulate alternative rule systems.

游戏人（Homo Ludens），人类的玩家，游戏的创造者。

Homo Ludens, human players, the the game maker.

卢梭站出来说，不对。

Rousseau comes along and says, no.

我们并不智慧。

We're not wise.

我们不玩游戏。

We don't play games.

你知道，我们不制造工具。

You know, we don't make tools.

我们关乎伦理。

We're about an ethics.

当然，我们这一物种如今是独一无二地具有道德性的。

Our species is uniquely moral now, of course.

这里发生的是，对智慧的追求被放入一个巨大的粒子对撞机中，分裂成三角形的三个顶点，这些顶点在我们的制度中得以体现。

And what happened here is that the aspiration to wisdom was put in a giant particle collider and fragmented into the three vertices of a triangle which manifested in our institutions.

所以现在你去经济系、社会学系、数学系或物理系。

So now you go to an economics department or a sociology department or a math department or a physics department.

哪里有一个系会说这些事物在我们的思想中、在我们的世界里是相互关联的？

Where is the department that says these things are connected in our minds, in our world?

因此，SFI（圣塔菲研究所）是一种尝试，我相信还有很多其他方式，旨在回归到智人——智慧的人类，这是美、善与真的结合。

And so SFI is an attempt in one way, and I'm sure there are many ways of doing this, to return to homo sapiens, wise humans, which is a conjunction of beauty, goodness, and truth.

艺术与科学之间的对话，而非分离。

A dialogue between the arts and the sciences as opposed to a separation.

而且老实说，我认为发生的情况是，制度形式和经济激励如此扭曲，以至于很难回归到一个更古典的状态，在那里三者以更为和谐的方式共存。

And and I think what's happened, to be honest, is that the institutional forms and the economic incentives are so perverse that it's very difficult to move back into a more classical state where the three live together in a some more in a somewhat more harmonious way.

但我认为这是绝对必要的。

But I think it's absolutely essential.

而SFI只是一个小小的前沿据点。

And SFI is a tiny little speck of an outpost.

它就像阿西莫夫笔下，你知道的，遥远星球上的基地，努力尝试以更整合的方式思考这个世界。

It's Asimov's, you know, foundation on a distant planet trying very hard to think about the world in a slightly more integrated way.

大卫，你在你即将出版的新书中有所暗示——当然我们都很期待阅读并与听众分享这本书。

David, you you hinted with your upcoming book, which, you know, of course eager to read it and to share it with our listeners.

你暗示了——如果我理解有误请指正——或许我想探讨的是，你提到了许多哲学家，我也很愿意就此展开讨论，但在此之前我更想了解你个人的人生哲学。

You hinted at and correct me if I'm wrong, but perhaps, you know, I want to discuss, you mentioned a lot of philosophers there, so I would love also to have that conversation, but before that I would love your own philosophy of life.

你认为人类是智慧物种吗？

Do you feel that humans are a homocybin?

我们是一个明智的物种吗？

Are we a wise species?

这是我们的座右铭。

That's our our motto.

我们是创造引擎吗？

Are we creative engines?

你认为作为一个物种，我们真正的本质是什么？

What do you think is really our true nature as a species?

我不确定我们是否有真正的本质。

I'm not sure we have a true nature.

你知道，我认为这可能就是我们的真正本质。

You know, I I think that might be our true nature.

要知道，我并不是在说自相矛盾的话。

You know, and I'm not being paradoxical.

我一直对马文·明斯基提出的'心智社会'理论很感兴趣。

You know, I was always very interested in Marvin Minsky's idea of the society of mind.

那种认为心智就像一个动物园，由许多功能组成，每个功能在不同领域运作的观点。

That that mind is somehow like a zoo and it's made of many functions and each of those functions operate in different domains.

这个想法最近实际上被一些非常有见地的认知人类学家所采纳，比如梅西耶、贝尔伯和塞西莉亚·海斯。

And and that idea was taken on quite recently actually by a number of very thoughtful cognitive anthropologists, Messier, Berber, Cecilia Hayes.

他们的理念是将明斯基的心智社会概念扩展为文化社会的概念。

And their idea is to take Minsky's conception of a society of the mind and explode it into the society of culture.

因此，文化是一种我们参与其中、从中汲取的庞大分布式算法系统。

So culture is a kind of vast system of distributed algorithms that we partake in, we sample from.

这就是良好教育应有的样子。

That's what pedagogy is when done well.

并且由于我们每个人所拥有的有限算法集合，我们在不同领域解决特定问题的能力各有优劣。

And and by virtue of the finite set of algorithms that each of us contains, we are better or worse at solving certain problems in different domains.

我们的本性反映了这种样本特征。

Our nature reflects that sample.

顺便说一句，这个样本还包括并非固定不变的道德准则。

And that sample, by the way, includes moral principles which are not fixed.

所以我确实认为，说人类智能是获取能力的能力是公允的。

And so I do think it's fair to say that human intelligence is the capability to acquire capabilities.

这在某种意义上将我们与动物世界区分开来——当然并非完全如此，因为其他动物也有文化，但程度远不及此。

And that in some sense distinguishes us from the rest of the animal world, not entirely because, of course, other animals have culture, but not to this degree.

现在从宏观层面和潜在趋势来说，我对你突然想到的这个问题的看法很感兴趣。

And in terms of, you know, going now into the macro, into the undercurrent, I I'm interested to hear your thoughts on on this question that just popped up.

你是否观察到某种趋势，比如，这可能是个非常宏大、宽泛的文化问题，你知道，情况可能各异，但你是否发现当今社会存在某种主导性的生活哲学趋势？

Are you seeing any trend towards like, maybe this is a very big question, a very broad question culturally, you know, it may vary, but do you see any trend in terms of, overarching life philosophy that's driving society today?

哦。

Oh.

你知道，我们开始这段对话时谈到了个人自由与社会约束之间的这种张力。

You know, we started this conversation as this kind of tension between individual freedom and societal constraints.

我确实有些担忧，经济力量在某种程度上、某些领域无疑是创新和人类潜能的非凡动力，

And I do worry a bit that the economic forces, which are in some sense and in some domains extraordinary powers of innovation and and human potential for sure.

但当它们被少数行为体主导时，也会限制我们的自由。

But also when dominated by a small number of actors curtail our freedoms.

因此我认为我们正经历一个阶段，感觉自己的个体感受在全球范围内受到限制。

And so I think we are going through a phase where we feel our our individual feelings are being limited globally.

当然，我在这里就有这种感受。

Certainly, I feel that here.

我们必须重申我们的自由，这是个集体行动问题。

And we have to reassert our liberty, And that's a collective action problem.

嗯。

Mhmm.

从积极的一面来看，现在正是需要全新形而上学的时刻。

So on the positive side, you know, now is the time for entirely radically new metaphysics.

对吧？

Right?

并不是说我们的思想在佛陀、耶稣、牛顿、达尔文或居里夫人——或者你最崇拜的任何人——那里就枯竭了。我认为世界需要一套全新的思想体系来理解当下。

It's not as if, you know, our ideas ran out with the Buddha or with Jesus or with Newton or Darwin or Madame Curie, you know, or whoever you admire most, I feel the world is in need of an entirely new system of thought to make sense of the current moment.

我猜想，某种程度上拉伯和温格罗夫那本书的成功——它是对传统人类学思想在现代经济环境中的应用——

And I suspect, you know, the success of, you know, Raber and Wingrove's book in some sense, which was a kind of application of traditional anthropological thought to a modern economic circumstance.

这本书无论优缺点都受到热捧，恰恰证明了我所说的：我们现在需要新思想。

The the hunger for that book with its strengths and its weaknesses was evidence of what I'm talking about, which is we need new ideas now.

而且我认为这实际上是个非凡的时刻。

And and I think that's an extraordinary moment actually.

我觉得这很棒。

Think that's brilliant.

你知道你在谈论Z世代。

You know that you talk about gen z.

好的，我们开始吧。

Okay let's do this.

我们开始吧。

Let's do this.

让我们构思一门新课程，这门课程不会否认技术带来的巨大优势。

Let's think about a new course which doesn't deny the enormous advantages of technology.

我们不会回到新石器时代那种状态。

We're not gonna return to a to a to a sort of neolithic age.

除非事态严重恶化，否则这似乎相当不现实。

It seems rather unrealistic unless things go horribly wrong.

但在事态严重恶化之前，让我们认真思考新的治理与合作体系、新的思想体系和知识体系。

But before things go horribly wrong, let's really think about new systems of governance and collaboration, new kinds of thoughts, knowledge systems.

其实，我感到非常兴奋。

I mean, I I'm very excited actually.