同理心有毒吗？

2025年夏季已悄然落幕，但这个夏天有一个标志性人物令人意外——珍妮特·杰克逊。从萨布丽娜·卡彭特到卡迪·B，再到Doja Cat的新单曲《Jealous Type》，她的影响力无处不在，我们将在本期节目中深入剖析。本周的《Switched on Pop》将聚焦珍妮特现象。请在各大播客平台搜索收听《Switched on Pop》。

Summer twenty twenty five has come to a close, but there's one thing that defined this summer, and that is surprisingly Janet Jackson. She's heard everywhere from Sabrina Carpenter to Cardi B to the new Doja Cat single Jealous Type, which we will unpack. It's Janet isms on this week's episode of Switched on Pop. Find Switched on Pop wherever you get your podcasts.

本期节目由《卫报》赞助播出。如果您是我们的听众，想必您重视新闻中的独立声音与多元视角。您需要真实事件的真知灼见，不愿怀疑所获信息是否被无形之手扭曲。《卫报》同样宣称坚守独立立场，致力于全景式报道，其内容涵盖范围远超常规新闻。

Support of the show today comes from The Guardian. If you listen to our show, my guess is that you value independent voices and perspectives on the news. You want real reporting on real stories, and you don't wanna wonder if the news you're getting is being skewed by an unseen hand. The Guardian says they're fiercely independent too. They aspire to report the whole picture, and their coverage goes beyond the news.

他们在文化、健康、体育等领域提供新颖见解。欲获取无妥协、无付费墙的美国和全球新闻，请立即访问theguardian.com阅读、观看与收听。

They have new perspectives on culture, wellness, sports, and more. For US and World News Without Compromise or a paywall, read, watch, and listen today at theguardian.com.

积极倾听并真正与他人互动，是一种共情能力的体现。

Active listening and really engaging with others is a form of empathy.

我担忧那些似乎缺乏共情能力的人。

I'm concerned about people who seem to lack empathy.

我总觉得自己把事情说得迂回复杂，而共情本不该令人困惑。有时这感觉就像在解一道复杂的数学题。

I feel like I make everything convoluted and confusing, and empathy maybe shouldn't be confusing. Sometimes it feels like a very like a complex math problem.

据Vox向我解释，我是乔斯林·希尔，一直认为共情是种美德。设身处地理解他人感受，这正是慈悲心的真谛。但尽管如此，如今共情似乎背负着某种奇怪的名声。

It's explained to me from Vox. I'm Joclyn Hill, and I've always thought of empathy as a good thing. You should be able put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand their feelings. That's what being compassionate is all about. But despite all that, it feels like empathy has a weird reputation right now.

这已经成了一个梗。

It's become a meme.

共情者会经历的11种常人不会有的特殊体验。

11 unusual things that empaths experience that normal people don't.

最近甚至有一群人在争论，认为共情在道德上是错误的。

There's even a group of people who've been arguing lately that empathy is morally wrong.

如果我对他们的共情——如果我感受他们的感受导致我肯定谎言、认可妄想或支持罪恶，那么我的共情就变成了有害的。

If my empathy for them, if my feeling how they feel leads me to affirm lies or to validate delusions or to support sin, then my empathy has become toxic.

那么现在共情到底出了什么问题？批评者是谁，共情并非完全有益的观点是否有一定道理？上周我请大家来电分享看法，很多人都在思考共情对你们意味着什么，包括过度共情带来的消耗。

So what's going on with empathy right now? Who are critics, and is there some truth to the idea that empathy can be not completely good? Last week, I asked you to call in with your thoughts on this, and a lot of you are thinking about what empathy means to you, including the toll too much of it can take.

你好，我叫Erica，过去十五年一直从事夫妻关系治疗。最近我一直在深思作为职业共情者——整天刻意实践共情的阴暗面。其中有些艰难的部分是我始料未及的。

Hi. My name is Erica, and I've been a couples therapist for the past fifteen years. And, you know, I've been really thinking a lot lately about the darker side of being someone who practices empathy on purpose as a career all day every day. And there's been some really hard parts of it that I was not prepared for.

好的。当我听到治疗师这个词时，某种程度上我认为你们是职业共情者。共情对你意味着什么？它在你的工作中扮演什么角色？

Okay. So when I hear therapists, I think almost to a degree, you're a professional empathizer. What does empathy mean to you and what role does it play in work for you?

我同意。我确实觉得自己是个专业的共情者，再加上还需要帮助人们解决他们关系中的问题。

I agree. I do feel like I'm a professional empathizer, and then with the added requirements of helping folks solve problems in their relationships.

是的。所以你打来电话告诉我们，你对共情有着复杂的感受。

Yeah. So you called in and you told us that you have complicated feelings about empathy.

没错。

Yeah.

是什么让你觉得复杂呢？

What complicates it for you?

我们这些从事助人行业的人接受过训练，以提高我们共情他人的能力和轻松度，但没人教我们如何刹车。比如，如果我整天都在见客户，在与客户互动或为伴侣共情方面度过了相当艰难的一天，那么当我与朋友共进晚餐、观看一部非常戏剧性的电视节目或读一本触动心弦的书时，我该如何关闭或降低这种共情状态？我没学过如何刹车。直到精疲力竭时，我才意识到自己需要刹车。我没意识到自己的同情心会耗尽，或者说，会失去那种设身处地理解他人感受的能力。

Those of us in the helping professions have been trained to sort of increase our capacity and the ease at which we can empathize with others, but nobody trains us to put brakes on that. For example, if I'm seeing clients all day and it's been, you know, a pretty difficult day in terms of relating with my clients or empathizing with couples, how do I turn that off or turn it down when I go to dinner with friends or watch a TV show that's really dramatic or read a book that tugs on my heartstrings? I didn't learn how to put the brakes on that. And I didn't realize that I needed brakes until I was so worn out. I didn't realize I could run out of compassion or, you know, run out of that ability to put myself in another person's position and understand their feelings.

你认为这对非治疗师人群有何影响？其他人是否也会为这种共情疲惫所困扰？

How do you see this impacting people who aren't therapists? Do other people kind of struggle with this empathy exhaustion?

我经常问自己这个问题。我是说，我会和我的客户讨论这个。所以我猜想，也许有人在零售业工作之类的。他们整天要应付一些愤怒或失望的人，还有一些普通的日常互动。但同时他们也在和同事聊天，其中一位同事正在讲述家里发生的棘手事情。

I ask myself that question a lot. I mean, I talk to my clients about this, you know. So I imagine, you know, maybe somebody works retail or something. And throughout the day, they deal with some angry people, some disappointed people, and they have some regular, like, interactions all day. But they're also chatting with their coworkers, and one of their coworkers is telling them about a really difficult thing happening in their family.

还有另一个同事在谈论学业压力。然后这个人，下班后上车，收听新闻，听到了关于加沙的报道。

And another coworker is talking about the stress of school. And then this person, like, finishes their shift, and they get in the car, and they listen to the news. And they're hearing about Gaza.

加沙城高层建筑遭袭。

Strikes rock this high rise building in Gaza City.

或者他们听到关于驱逐出境的新闻。可能他们是个很有同理心的人，正在想象身处那种境况会怎样。下班回到家，刷一会儿TikTok，碰巧看到有人刚失去宠物的视频。'它曾是我生命的挚爱。'他们还可能看到某人被诊断出绝症之类的视频。

Or they're hearing about, you know, deportations. And maybe they're a pretty empathetic person, and they're imagining what it would be like to be in that situation. And then they get home from work, and they scroll TikTok for a while and, you know, happen to see a video of somebody who's recently lost a pet. Was the love of my life. He just And they happen to see a video of somebody who's been diagnosed with a terminal illness or something.

对吧？好吧，是的，伙计们，是癌症。同时他们也看到可爱视频和单口喜剧之类的。对吧？

Right? Okay. Well, yeah, it's cancer, guys. And along with that, they're seeing cute videos and stand up comics and all that. Right?

我喜欢自动扶梯，因为它永远不会坏，只会变成楼梯。

I like an escalator, man, because an escalator can never break. It can only become stairs.

晚上最后，他们看最爱的Netflix剧集，可能有点沉重，比如《鱿鱼游戏》。

And then at the end of the night, they watch their favorite Netflix show, which is maybe, like, kind of heavy. Maybe it's Squid Games.

绿灯。红灯。

Green light. Red light.

他们又一次试图设身处地为他人着想。但我认为，一个正在经历那种日子的人，并不会去思考自己承受了多少间接的悲伤、压力和焦虑。所以，他们可能无法理解为什么自己的情绪会变化，为什么会如此疲惫，为什么不想和任何人说话，以及需要做些什么来平衡这些情绪。

And they're like, again, sort of putting themselves in people's shoes. And I just don't think someone going through that day is thinking about how much vicarious grief, vicarious stress, vicarious anxiety they've been around. So I don't think they have maybe that conceptualization of why their mood has changed, why they're so exhausted, why they don't feel like talking to anybody, and what they need to do to level it out.

这是芝加哥的婚姻与家庭治疗师Erica Steenbergen。我们稍后会在节目中再次回到Erica的话题，因为我们为她和其他正经历共情倦怠的人准备了一些答案。关于如何管理我们的共情能力，使其对我们和他人都有益。但我想先回到她提到的刷视频现象，因为在那些关于热狗或初次约会的TikTok之间，也有许多人在讨论共情本身，并提出了一种相当极端的观点，认为共情是一种罪过。接下来，来自基督教右翼的一个出人意料的反对共情的论点正在获得关注，并开始在这个过程中影响我们所有人的生活。

That's Erica Steenbergen, a marriage and family therapist in Chicago. We'll come back to Erica later in the show because we have some answers for her and anyone else feeling empathy burnout. All about how to manage our empathy so it benefits us and other people. But I wanna go back to that scrolling she talked about for a second because in between TikToks about stuff like hot dogs or first dates, there are also plenty of videos out there of people talking about empathy itself and saying something kind of extreme, that empathy is a sin. Next, a surprising argument against empathy from the Christian right that's gaining traction and starting to shape all of our lives in the process.

什么能带来幸福的生活？1938年，哈佛大学的科学家们开始追踪250多名年轻人的福祉，以找出答案。现在，近九十年后，结果出来了。

What makes for a happy life? In 1938, scientists at Harvard started tracking the well-being of over 250 young people to figure that out. Now, almost ninety years later, the results are in.

学习是一个因素。那些不断学习、阅读、喜欢学习的人，随着年龄增长会更加快乐。还有那些非常善于管理自己情绪的人。

There was learning. People who learned and read and read and read and like to learn. They were much happier as they got older. People who are really good at managing their feelings.

但有一件事比其他所有因素都更为突出。我是Henry Blodgett，本周在《解决方案》节目中，我与畅销书作者Arthur Brooks讨论了幸福的科学。更多内容，请在任何你获取播客的地方关注《Henry Blodgett的解决方案》。

But there was one thing that stood above all the rest. I'm Henry Blodgett, and this week on Solutions, I talked to bestselling author Arthur Brooks about the science of happiness. Follow solutions with Henry Blodgett for more wherever you get your podcasts.

今天的节目由Saks Fifth Avenue赞助。高端百货Saks Fifth Avenue让您轻松享受节日。无论是寻找合适的礼物还是完美的服装，Saks都能满足您的需求，比如一款Chloe包。那是什么样子的？也许您可以给Noelle买点什么，因为她喜欢高档的东西。

Support for today explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fancy, Saks Fifth Avenue makes it easy to holiday your way. Whether it's finding the right gift or the right outfit, Saks is where you can find everything like a Chloe bag. What does that look like? Maybe you could buy something for Noelle because she likes fancy stuff.

如果您不知从何开始，sax.com会根据您的个人风格定制推荐，这样您可以节省购物时间，更多地享受节日。让这个季节的购物变得有趣又轻松，在Saks Fifth Avenue找到适合您节日风格的礼物和灵感。

If you don't know where to start, sax.com is customized to your personal style so you could save time shopping and spend more time just enjoying the holidays. Make shopping fun and easy this season, and find gifts and inspiration to suit your holiday style at Saks Fifth Avenue.

我们回来了。现在让我来解释一下。在查理·柯克遇害后的几小时和几天里，他的许多言论在社交媒体上广为流传。我以为自己已经熟悉他大部分的观点，但一段六秒的片段引起了我的注意。

We're back. It's explain it to me. In the hours and days after Charlie Kirk was killed, lots of things he said made the rounds on social media. I thought I was familiar with most of his talking points already, but one six second clip caught my attention.

其实我无法忍受‘共情’这个词。我认为共情是一个虚构的新时代术语，造成了很多伤害。

I can't stand the word empathy, actually. I think empathy is a made up new age term that does a lot of damage.

这段录音来自2022年的一期节目。事实证明，查理·柯克并非政治右翼中唯一认为共情是坏事的人。这一观点起源于基督教福音派圈子，在那里共情被描述为有毒甚至罪恶的。我想了解更多，于是联系了罗克珊·斯通。

That was from an episode of a show back in 2022. And it turns out Charlie Kirk hasn't been the only one on the political right saying empathy is a bad thing. It's an idea that found its start in Christian evangelical circles where empathy has been described as toxic and even sinful. I wanted to find out more, so I called up Roxanne Stone.

我是宗教新闻社的执行编辑，同时也是播客《城市救赎》的联合主持人，我们在节目中探讨如何在城市生活中保持信仰。

I am the executive editor at Religion News Service, and I am also the cohost of a podcast called Saved by the City, where we talk about how to navigate being an adult in the city and also someone of faith.

请简单谈谈你的宗教成长背景。

Tell me a little bit about your religious upbringing and background.

我在科罗拉多州东部一个约百人的偏远小镇长大，那里基督教氛围浓厚。我们只有一座教堂，就在我家后院，是南方浸信会的。不过小时候我并不知道那是南方浸信会。

I grew up in a very small rural Eastern Colorado town of about a 100 people, and it's a very Christian place. We have one church. It's basically in my backyard. It's a Southern Baptist church. Although growing up, I didn't really know that was Southern Baptist.

对我来说，那就是‘我家乡的教堂’而已。

It just was like, oh, this is my hometown church.

是的。所以我想探讨一下‘共情是一种罪’这个概念。当我听到这个说法时，第一反应是：等等，什么？

Yeah. So I wanna get into this idea of empathy as a sin. Like, I hear that. I'm like, wait, what?

这么想的不止你一个人。我也很困惑——等等，什么？因为共情显然被视为基督教美德，人们通常都这么认为。

Well, you were not alone in thinking that. I also was like, wait. What? It just seems like empathy is, of course, a Christian virtue. You assume that.

大家默认如此。但突然间出现了一种讨论声音说：共情是有毒的，甚至是一种罪过。这方面最突出的两个代表人物，首先是艾莉·贝丝·斯塔基。

You think that. And all of a sudden, there's sort of been this conversation happening about, like, okay. Empathy is toxic. Empathy is even sinful. The two most prominent voices on this, you have Ali Beth Stuckey.

她是作家、播客主，曾供职于福克斯新闻，著有《有毒的共情：进步派如何利用基督徒的同情心》一书。

She's a writer, a podcaster. She's sort of a former Fox News person, and she is the author of a book called toxic empathy, how progressives exploit Christian compassion.

他们通过挪用我们的语言、圣经经文和理念，再加以扭曲，用道德胁迫手段迫使我们接受他们的立场，这就是在利用有毒共情。

They use toxic empathy by employing our language, our bible verses, our concepts, and then pervert them to morally extort us into adopting their position.

另一位是乔·里格比，他是改革宗福音派教会联盟的牧师，著有《共情之罪：同情心及其伪装》。

And then you have Joe Rigby, and he's a pastor within the communion of reformed evangelical churches. Joe Rigby is the author of the sin of empathy, compassion, and its counterfeits.

大多数人很难想象共情怎么会有害。所以如果我是魔鬼，我会把最具破坏性的策略藏在哪儿？当然是藏在没人觉得有问题的地方。

Most people have a hard time imagining how empathy could ever be harmful. And therefore, if I'm the devil, where am I gonna hide some of my most destructive tactics? It's under the thing that nobody expects to be bad.

我认为Rigby、Stuckey等反对共情的人，他们真正想表达的是区分同情与共情。他们常用的一个比喻，特别是Rigby用的这个例子：你看到有人陷入流沙正在下沉，你需要设法救他们。

I think what Rigby and Stuckey and others who are arguing against empathy, what they're really trying to do is say is is make a distinction between sympathy and between empathy. One of the really common metaphors that they'll use is, in particular, Rigby uses this metaphor. You see someone who's in quicksand, who's sinking in quicksand, and you need to try to save them.

而共情会让人直接跳进流沙里，双脚都陷进去。这看似更富有爱心，因为对方会觉得‘很高兴你陪我一起在流沙里’。问题是现在你们俩都在下沉。

And what empathy wants to do is jump into the quicksand with them, both feet. And and it feels like that's gonna be more loving because they're gonna feel like, I'm glad that you're here with me in the quicksand. Problem is you're both now sinking.

同情的反应则是抛绳子或树枝把人拉出流沙，但你自己始终站在岸上，站在坚实的地面。Rigney认为这坚实地面就是客观性。从基督教视角看，是圣经的权威、耶稣的权威，这赋予你力量和立足点去拉人上来。他们在各种播客节目中都谈到，为何基督徒尤其容易陷入这种‘有毒共情’，活在对真正基督教美德——怜悯与同情——的扭曲理解中。

And the sympathetic response is to throw a rope or throw a tree branch and haul this person out of the quicksand, but you are staying on the shore, and you are staying on solid ground. Rigney argues that solid ground is objectivity. From a Christian perspective, it is the authority of scripture, the authority of Jesus, and that is giving you the strength and the sort of solid ground to be able to pull someone in. And both of them, you have seen them on, you know, a number of podcasts kind of all over the place talking about why Christians in particular are susceptible to this toxic empathy, to this, living out of a sort of what they would again call a twisting or a distortion of the true Christian virtues of compassion and sympathy.

好吧。这和我从小在教会听到的，甚至现在周日去教堂听讲的理念完全不同。你是怎么意识到‘共情可能是罪恶’这个观点的？最初在哪里听到的？

Okay. So this is a way different concept than what I grew up with going to church and even what I hear from the pulpit when I go on Sundays. How did you become aware of this argument that empathy can be sinful? When did you first hear about it?

就像现在很多事一样，我最初是在网上看到的。多数时候是作为对某些推文的嘲讽反击——那些推文内容偏进步主义，涉及反种族歧视、支持DEI或移民。你会看到有人回复说‘这是有毒共情’‘共情过头了’。我想很多人最早可能是通过马斯克在乔·罗根节目上谈论‘有毒共情是当今世界最危险事物’时接触到的。

Well, like so many things these days, I first encountered it on the Internet. And mostly as, like, an insult, a clap back on somebody's tweet or x post about something that felt kind of progressive, kind of anti racism or pro DEI or pro immigration. And there would sort of be this you'd see a tweet, and I just started seeing more and more of them that was like, this is toxic empathy. This is empathy gone too far. And I think a lot of people probably first encountered it with Elon Musk on Joe Rogan, talking about toxic empathy and it being one of the most dangerous things in the world today.

我相信共情，认为应该关心他人，但需要对整个文明保持共情，而不是让文明走向自杀。

It's like, I believe in empathy. Like, I think you should care about other people, but you need to have empathy for for civilization as a whole and not commit to a civilizational suicide.

Charlie Kirk在他的播客里也讨论过这个。

Charlie Kirk talked about it on his podcast.

同理心是一个虚构的新时代术语，它造成了很多伤害，但在政治领域却非常有效。同情心，我更倾向于同情而非同理心。这个话题我们改日再单独讨论。

Empathy is a made up New Age term that does a lot of damage, but it is very effective when it comes to politics. Sympathy, prefer more than empathy. That's a separate topic for a different time.

有人说这是左派最常用的心理伎俩。它常被用来暗示进步政治已经走得太远。尤其会被用来指责我们国家变得软弱，基督徒变得软弱。我们在移民问题上太过同理心，导致边境开放过度，放行了太多人。

Said it was the number one psychological trick of the left. So it's it's often being used to sort of say, this is why progressive politics have gone too far. And, you know, and in particular, you might see it being used to sort of say we've gone soft as a nation. We've gone soft as Christians. We got too empathetic on immigration, and it caused us to open up our borders too much, and we let too many people in.

或者说DEI（多元平等包容）问题就是过度同理边缘群体和受压迫者，试图设身处地后反而把他们的困境归咎于自己，而非从客观角度解决问题。这些现象都表明，同理心理念正是当前政府面临诸多突出问题的根源所在。

Or DEI is just a problem of being too empathetic for the marginalized and the oppressed and trying to put yourself in their shoes and then blame yourself for their problems instead of, like, helping to fix from an objective standpoint. So this is all, like, this idea of empathy is at the root of all of these issues that also happen to be really prominent issues within this particular administration.

等等，我正在努力理解这个观点。这和我周日坐在教堂长椅上听到的教义完全不同。因为我听到的耶稣会与罪人、税吏、性工作者同席，治愈麻风病人，去往人们不敢涉足之地。按照这种逻辑，耶稣是否也犯了他们所说的这种'有害的同理心'？

Okay. It's it just I'm wrapping my head around it. Like, it's an argument that it was is very different from what I hear when I'm, like, sitting in that pew on Sunday. Because, you know, like, I hear about a Jesus that, like, ate with sinners and tax collectors and sex workers and, you know, healed lepers and was, in the places where people were scared to go. I mean, with this line of thinking, was Jesus guilty of this toxic empathy that they're talking about?

我也有同样疑问。当我想到耶稣及其教导，特别是《八福》中说到'哀恸的人有福了，受迫害的人有福了，贫穷的人有福了'——除了理解为上帝特别眷顾那些边缘化和受苦的人，我不知道还能如何解读。

I wonder the same thing. I mean, when I think of Jesus and I think of Jesus' teachings, in particular, say, the beatitudes where we're talking about, like, blessed are the persecuted. Blessed are the suffering. Blessed are the poor. I I don't know how to read that other than to say God does put a particular care and honor for those who are marginalized and suffering.

而当我思考耶稣本身和基督教神学要义时，我们有一位通过耶稣道成肉身的上帝，这本质上就像跳进流沙去认同你要拯救的人。从我的角度看，这堪称同理心的终极体现。

And when I think about Jesus himself and the sort of tenants of Christian theology, we have a god who literally became human in Jesus, which it's very much akin to, anyway, jumping into the quicksand, like, the person that you are trying to identify with. And and truly, like, what an act of empathy from my perspective.

我在想是否当前特殊时代背景助长了这种现象。就在上周，我们节目还讨论过美国人变得比过去粗鲁，不再那么友善。现在的人们是否确实缺乏同理心了？

I wonder if we are in a particular moment that's fertile ground for this. Just the other week, we did a show about just how kind of Americans are we're kind of more rude to each other now. We're not as kind as we used to be. Do people seem less empathetic now?

我确实认为在政治分歧存在时情况确实如此。我认为人们更缺乏动力、更不愿意从对立面的角度看待问题，尤其是在政治分歧方面。社交媒体放大了双方最糟糕或最极端的论点，而你几乎很少听到或看到细微差别，我认为这些细微差别有助于我们设身处地为他人着想并保持同理心。所以，是的，我确实认为我们比过去更缺乏同理心，或者至少我们更缺乏展现同理心的动力。

I certainly think it's true when there's a political divide. I think there's a lot less impetus, a lot less desire to see from the other side's perspective, in particular, political divides. And social media helps us to amplify the worst arguments on either side or the most extreme arguments on either side, and you just very rarely hear or see nuance, which I think helps us be able to put ourselves in other people's shoes and to be empathetic. So, yes, I do actually think that we are less empathetic than we used to be, or we are at least less incentivized to be empathetic.

好的。罗克珊·斯通，非常感谢你为我们解释这些。

Alright. Roxanne Stone, thank you so much for explaining this to us.

谢谢邀请我。这次交流很愉快。

Thanks for having me. It's been great.

接下来，我将把‘同理心是一种罪过’的论点带给一位真正的同理心科学家，他扫描过许多大脑，翻阅了所有相关研究，以确切定义什么是同理心，以及为什么它实际上——剧透警告——是件好事。

Coming up, I take the whole empathy is a sin argument to an actual empathy scientist who scanned many a brain and leafed through all the relevant studies to actually define what empathy is and why it's actually, spoiler alert, a good thing.

我在亚洲吃过榴莲。这种水果的气味极其浓烈且令人不适，航空公司禁止将其带上飞机。

I've had durian in Asia. It's a fruit with a smell so strong and offensive. Airlines prohibit bringing it on the plane.

榴莲是传奇般的存在。在世界某些地方，它被视为水果之王。当榴莲季节来临时，人们会花大价钱购买最成熟的优质果实。

Durian is legendary. In some parts of the world, it's considered the king of fruits. When durian is in season, people pay a fortune for the best ripe fruit.

但它的香气也强烈到在那些地区不允许带上公共交通工具。茱莉亚·柴尔德曾形容它的气味是‘死去的婴儿混合草莓和卡门贝尔奶酪的味道’。

But it's also got such an intense aroma that you can't bring it on public transport in those same parts of the world. Julia Child described it as, quote, dead babies mixed with strawberries and camembert.

本期《腹足纲》探讨：为何榴莲让人又爱又恨？那股刺鼻气味从何而来？科学家能否且应否消除这种气味？

This episode of gastropod, why is durian so beloved and also so hated? Where does that pungent smell come from? And can and should scientists get rid of it?

在您获取播客的任何平台搜索《腹足纲》并订阅收听。

Find a gastropod wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe.

智能家居几十年来一直是个好概念——能控制门窗、地板、电器等所有设备，让一切协同工作。这理念很棒，只是从未真正实现。但本周，亚马逊和谷歌推出的新硬件与软件表明，即便尚未完全实现，我们至少已接近目标。

The smart home has been a good idea for decades. Just that you can control your windows and your doors and your floors and your appliances and everything and just have everything work together. It's a good idea. It's just never been possible. But now this week, we got some new gadgets and some new software from both Amazon and Google that suggest that if we're not getting there, we're at least getting close.

本周《边缘播客》将讨论这些进展，外加被迫不停看广告的电视体验。敬请收听《边缘播客》，各大播客平台均可订阅。

This week on the Vergecast, we talk about all of that plus what it's like to have a TV that won't stop showing you ads. All that on the Vergecast wherever you get podcasts.

谈及共情能力，我们讨论过情感层面。但科学角度呢？为此我们请教了研究共情的专家——人们如何体验共情，以及如何提升这种能力。

When it comes to empathy, we've talked about the feelings. But what about the science? To find out, we turn to someone who studies empathy, how people experience it, and how they can get better at it.

我是贾米尔·扎基，斯坦福大学心理学教授。我主持研究人际连接的实验室，并著书探讨人们如何更好地建立连接。

My name is Jamil Zaki. I'm a professor of psychology at Stanford. I run a lab where we study human connection, and I write books about how people can learn to connect better.

好的。我们一直在讨论共情的定义。但共情究竟是什么？我们具体在谈论什么？

Okay. So we've been talking about these definitions of empathy. But what is empathy exactly? Like, what are we talking about here?

共情包含三个部分。首先是间接感受或分享他人的情绪，这被称为情感共情。其次是试图理解他人的生活与现实状况，即认知共情。第三则是关心他人并希望改善他们的福祉，这常被称为共情关怀或同情心。这三部分相互关联，但也可以独立存在。

Empathy has three pieces. The first is vicariously catching or sharing what other people feel, which is called emotional empathy. The second is trying to understand what life and reality is like for another person, which is cognitive empathy. And the third is caring about others and wishing for their well-being to improve, which is often called empathic concern or compassion. And these three pieces are connected to each other, but they can also be separated.

我们一直在讨论的这个观点引发了本次对话——有人认为共情是种罪过，会拖累你。作为研究共情的学者，你如何看待这种观点？

And, you know, there's this idea that we've been talking about that kind of got us in this conversation. And it's this idea of empathy being a sin, like this idea of it dragging you down. And I wonder how you think of that from the perspective of, you know, someone who studies empathy.

我认为这非常关键，最近许多对共情的批评中都存在这种观点：如果你对某人产生共情，就等于放弃了自己的立场，最终会认同他们或宽恕其所有行为。这完全不符合事实。确实，共情可能在某些情况下导致我们做出非理性决策，比如偏袒我们共情的对象而非陌生人，或因为更理解亲友情绪而偏向他们。

I think this is so important, and I've seen this in a lot of the very recent critiques of empathy, is this idea that if you empathize with somebody, you're sort of giving up your own perspective, that you will end up agreeing with them or just condoning whatever they do. That is not true at all. I do think there are certain ways in which empathy can lead us to make decisions that we probably don't want to make. For instance, favoring somebody who we empathized with versus somebody who we don't know. Favoring people who we're close to because we understand their emotions more.

但即便如此，认为共情总是有害或应该从生活中剔除的观点同样存在误区。因为共情从根本上支撑着人类作为物种的诸多优势行为。我们常以为共情是利他行为，实则它往往也惠及自身。实验室研究发现，对他人产生共情是促进身心健康的有效方式之一。因此共情既帮助共情者，也惠及周围人群。

But that said, the idea that empathy is always toxic or that we should remove it from our lives seems quite misguided to me as well because empathy has enormous fundamental ways of supporting everything that we do well as a species. We often think of empathy as something that we do for other people, but it turns out that it actually helps us as well in many cases. Cases. In our lab, we find, for instance, when you empathize with others, that's one of the best things that you can do for your physical and mental health. So it helps us, the people who feel empathy, but it also helps the people around us.

具共情力的医生能以更有效的方式治疗患者；善解人意的上司会拥有更快乐健康的员工；懂得共情的父母和配偶能建立更健康的家庭关系。最后，共情还促进广泛的社会连接：具备共情能力的人更可能参与志愿活动、慈善捐赠，并能超越偏见与刻板印象的滤镜看待异己群体。

So physicians who are empathic treat their patients in ways that are more effective. Bosses who are empathic have happier and healthier employees. Parents and spouses who are empathic have healthier connections with family. And then finally, empathy helps us connect at a broad scale. People who feel it are more likely to volunteer, to donate to charity, and to see people who are different from them free from the lens of prejudice, stereotyping, stereotyping, and bias.

可见益处良多。那么当

So lots of benefits. What

我们彼此更加慈悲相待时，大脑里究竟发生着什么变化？

happens when we're, I guess, more compassionate to each other? What's going on in our heads?

首先我们要明确，同理心并不总能让我们感觉更好。举例来说，如果你此刻在我的实验室，我们正在扫描你的大脑，而你看到别人经历痛苦，比如踢到脚趾或不小心被刀割伤，你大脑中激活的区域不会是那些与愉悦相关的，而是与痛苦相关的。你的大脑反应会仿佛你自己正在经历这个人的处境。但当我们能运用这种同理心为他人带来积极改变时，你才会开始体验到益处。明白吗？

Well, let's be clear that empathy doesn't always make us feel better. For instance, if you were in my lab right now and we were scanning your brain and you saw somebody else, experience pain, like stub their toe or accidentally cut themselves with a knife, The parts of your brain that would come online would not be those associated with pleasure, but with pain. Your brain would look as though you were going through the situation that this person was. But when we can use that empathy to make a positive difference for somebody else, that's when you start to experience benefits. Right?

所以如果改为扫描你在为某个你感到亲近的人实施善举时的大脑

So if I were to scan your brain while you instead did something kind for somebody who you felt connected to

谢谢你，亲爱的。

Thank you, sweetie.

那么这时你吃巧克力时会激活的脑区也会活跃起来。这很有趣对吧？因为我觉得如今很多人虽怀有同理心却未付诸行动。对吧？

Well, then the parts of your brain that come online when you eat chocolate would also be active. So it's interesting. Right? Because I think a lot of us these days feel empathy but don't have any action. Right?

你上网看到接二连三的悲剧，全球各地的苦难，却感到无能为力。这种状态对人的健康并不利。但当我们能将同理心转化为行动时，它才开始真正惠及我们自身。

You go online and you see tragedy after tragedy, suffering all over the world, and you feel helpless. That's not a very healthy state for a person to be in. But when we can turn empathy into action, that's when it starts to benefit us.

是的。我很好奇你刚才略有提及——什么是良性的同理心？我们如何判断自己做到了？

Yeah. Like, I'm curious about you've gotten into it a little bit, but what is the good kind of empathy, and how do we know we're doing it?

一般而言，人们最难处理的是情感同理心——真切感受他人情绪，尤其当你长期接触处于痛苦中的人时。例如医学生开始受训时，其情感同理心水平（即对他人情绪的感知程度）能预测数年后他们是否会职业倦怠。但相反，当我们产生所谓同理关怀——关心他人却不背负其痛苦时，这实际上往往对我们有益。因此那些在受训初期就表现出高度关怀和善意的医学生，后期出现职业倦怠的概率更低。

Generally speaking, what is difficult for people is emotional empathy, feeling what other people feel, especially if you are commonly around others who are suffering. So for instance, when medical students start their training, their level of emotional empathy, how much they catch other people's feelings, is a predictor of whether they will be burnt out a few years later. But by contrast, when we can feel what we think of as empathic concern, caring for people without taking on their pain, well, then that actually tends to benefit us. So the same medical students who report being high in concern and goodwill towards others when they start their training are less likely to be burned out.

那么，人们是天生具有同理心，还是随着时间的推移学会的呢？

So are people naturally empathetic, or is this something we learn over time?

我认为两者兼而有之。首先，作为一个物种，我们具有极强的同理心。我们能关心千里之外、素未谋面的人，这是其他动物无法做到的。所以我们的同理心能力非常了不起。

I think a little bit of both. So first of all, as a species, we are enormously empathic. We, can care for people who are thousands of miles away, who we will never meet. That's something that no other animal does. So our capacity for empathy is fantastic.

话虽如此，它也是一种技能，关键在于通过练习正确的习惯，我们可以像锻炼肌肉一样有意识地培养同理心。这正是我的实验室主要研究的内容。这里有几个步骤：首先是意识到自己可以做到。例如，我们发现认为同理心是固定特质的人不太可能去努力提升它。

That said, it is a skill, and, crucially, that means that by practicing the right habits, we can build our empathy on purpose the way that you would work out a muscle. So this is exactly what my lab, works on most. So there's a couple of steps here. The first is just to know that you can. We've found, for instance, that people who think that empathy is a fixed trait are less likely to work on it and less likely to grow.

但那些知道它是技能的人——当我们告诉他们这是技能时——会努力去培养，并因此真正取得进步。第二步是练习习惯。同理心的改变不在于你偶尔做件大事，而在于每天用稍微不同的方式处理日常事务。比如我建议人们在日程表里预留五分钟，用来做些小小的善意之举。另一个关键习惯是培养谦逊。

But people who know that it's a skill and people who we tell it's a skill try to work on it, try to grow, and actually do as a result. And then the second is to practice habits. So empathy changes not because you do some grandiose thing once, but changes because you you just take a slightly different approach to what you do every day. So I encourage people, for instance, to put a daily calendar hold in for just five minutes where they can perform a small act of goodwill or service. Another really critical habit to develop is humility.

很多时候，我们无法共情是因为对自己的观点过于自信。尤其在分歧时，关键要问：我有哪些不知道的？这个人能教我什么？把对话目标从得分和压制对方，转变为向对方学习。

Oftentimes, the reason that we can't empathize with other people is because we're too confident in our own perspective. So especially during disagreements, it's critical to say, what don't I know? What does this person have to teach me? And sort of shifting our goal in conversations from scoring points and dunking on people to trying to learn from them.

你的同理心发展如何？研究这个是否影响了你对日常生活中自己同理心的看法？

How is your empathy going? Has studying this had any impact on how you think about how empathetic you are in day to day life?

这是个非常有趣的问题。心理学有句话叫'研究即自我探索'，意思是我们会研究自己感兴趣的东西。我的父母来自截然不同的国家，我觉得自己的一生就像个同理心实验，因为必须弥合他们完全不同的视角。这大概就是我研究这个领域的原因。这项研究让我变得更加敏锐。

That's that's a really interesting question. So in psychology, there's this saying that research is me search, meaning meaning we study this stuff that's been interesting to us. And, you know, my parents are immigrants from very different countries, and I feel like my whole life has been an empathy experiment because I've had to bridge their totally different perspectives. And so that's, I think, kind of why I got into studying this. I think studying it has made me much more aware.

我并不认为这必然让我更擅长共情。我是说，我希望如此，但它确实让我意识到阻碍共情的障碍。对我来说，压力就是其中之一。如果我感到压力和不堪重负，每个人都会让我心烦。我对任何人都没有耐心。

I I don't think it's made made me better necessarily at empathy. I mean, I hope it has, but it certainly has made me aware of the barriers that get in its way. For me, it's stress. If I'm stressed and overwhelmed, everybody annoys me. I have no time for anybody.

而且我更加意识到，哇，我正在经历的这种压力，我的焦虑正在关闭我的共情能力，这确实让我停下来思考。它给了我机会说，好吧，让我重新调整一下，这样我才能更有效地为他人提供支持。

And I've become much more aware of, wow, this stress that I'm undergoing, my anxiety is shutting down my empathy, and it does give me pause. It gives me the chance to say, well, let me reset here so that I can show up more effectively for other people.

好的。贾米尔·扎基，非常感谢你。

Alright. Jamil Zaki, thanks so much.

谢谢。

Thank you.

让我们回到之前交谈过的听众埃里卡·斯滕伯根。好的，埃里卡。我刚和一位我认为是专业共情者的人聊过。他分享了一些增强我们共情能力的技巧。但我想听听你如何应对共情疲劳。

Let's circle back to Erika Steenbergen, the listener who we talked to earlier. Okay, Erika. So I just talked with someone else who I would consider a professional empathizer. And he shared some tips for strengthening our empathy muscles. But I wanna hear what you did to work on your empathy burnout.

我首先要做的是注意到它并理解它是什么。在我有这个框架之前，我以为这只是不太想社交或对朋友易怒，这让我对此感到有点糟糕。现在我有了这个框架来注意到发生了什么，并有了一些语言来描述它，我可以思考我需要做什么来从过多的同情和共情中休息一下？这可能意味着改变今晚在Netflix上看的内容，或者换一本更轻松的书来读，或者告诉朋友们，哦，今天真是够呛。

The first thing I had to do is notice it and understand what it is. So before I had this framework for it, I thought of it as not feeling very social or being irritable with my friends, and that made me feel kinda bad about it. Now that I have the framework to notice what's going on and sort of the language for it, I can think about it in terms of what do I need to do to take a break from feeling so much compassion and empathy? So that might be changing whatever I watch on Netflix tonight or swapping out whatever book I was reading for something lighter or tell my friends. Oh, it's been a a day.

我感到情感上精疲力尽，我珍视你们，爱你们，迫不及待想和你们叙旧。但今晚，我要待在家里。

And I'm feeling emotionally exhausted and I adore you and I love you and I can't wait to catch up with you. But for tonight, I'm staying in.

Erica，非常感谢你与我们交谈。同时也感谢你的倾听和来电。

Erica, thank you so much for talking with us. Also, thank you for listening, and thank you for calling in.

哦，当然。是的。很乐意这么做。

Oh, of course. Yeah. Happy to do it.

我们想和你聊聊下周的节目。关于青少年和屏幕使用的讨论很多，但幼儿与科技呢？家长们，你们的孩子使用手机或平板的方式是否让你们觉得可以接受？对于幼儿屏幕时间管理，你们最大的疑问是什么？请拨打+1 806188545联系我们，或发送语音备忘录至askVox@Vox.com。

We wanna talk to you about next week's show. There's so much conversation about teenagers and screens, but how about toddlers and tech? Parents, is your toddler on the phone or tablet in a way that feels okay, actually? What are your biggest questions about how you should think about screen time in early childhood? Give us a call at +1 806188545, or send a voice memo to askVox@Vox.com.

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要成为会员，请访问vox.com/members。本期节目由Avishe Artesi制作，Megan Kanan编辑，事实核查由Melissa Hirsch完成，本周的工程师是Adrian Lilley。执行制作人是Miranda Kennedy。我是主持人John Glenn Hill。

To become a member, head on over to vox.com/members. This episode was produced by Avishe Artesi and was edited by Megan Kanan. Fact checking was by Melissa Hirsch, and our engineer this week was Adrian Lilley. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. I'm your host, John Glenn Hill.

感谢收听。我们很快会再聊。再见。

Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.