弗吉尼亚·埃文斯，《通讯员》：一部小说

你好。

Hi.

我是齐比·欧文斯，欢迎收听《齐比完全读书》。

This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby.

以前啊，妈妈们都没时间看书。

Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.

在我的每日节目中，我会采访当下最热门、最畅销、最热议，或者被低估的作家和故事创作者，他们的作品绝对值得你花时间读一读。

In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time.

作为书店老板、出版人、作家，还有当然了，播客主持人，我能全面掌握所有新书动态，每天花时间帮你筛选出最好的书，省得你自己费心。

As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and, obviously, podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to.

随时掌握最新动态，获取独家见解，像我一样每天与嘉宾建立连接。

Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day.

更多信息请访问 zibbymedia.com，关注我的 Instagram 账号 Zibby Owens。

For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens.

今天的这期节目，是2025年《齐比完全读书》下载量排名第二的节目。

Today's episode is number two on the list of the top 10 most downloaded totally booked episodes of 2025.

如果你错过了，现在正是补上的好机会。

If you missed it, now's your chance to catch up.

弗吉尼亚·埃文斯是小说《通信者》的作者。

Virginia Evans is the author of THE CORRESPONDENT, A NOVEL.

弗吉尼亚来自美国东北部。

Virginia is from the Northeastern United States.

她本科在詹姆斯·麦迪逊大学主修英语文学，之后在爱尔兰都柏林的三一学院攻读哲学与创意写作硕士学位。

She attended James Madison University for her bachelor's in English literature as well as Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland for her master's of philosophy and creative writing.

她和丈夫、两个孩子以及一只红色的拉布拉多犬住在北卡罗来纳州的温斯顿-塞勒姆。

She lives in Winston Salem, North Carolina with her husband, two children, and her red Labrador.

欢迎你，弗吉尼亚。

Welcome, Virginia.

非常感谢你来到《Totally Booked》聊一聊《通信者》这本书。

Thank you so much for coming on TOTALLY BUCKED to talk about THE CORRESPONDENT.

太感谢了。

Thank you so much.

谢谢邀请我来。

Thanks for having me.

我知道这期节目会晚点发布，但我们今天聊的时候正好是你的新书上市日，真是太棒了。

And I know this episode will come out later, but we are talking just after your pub day, which is so exciting.

所以，看到自己的书终于出版，是什么感觉？

So how did that feel getting the book

进入这个世界？

into the world?

说实话，根本无法形容。

It was honestly just defied.

对我来说，完全超出了想象。

Defied description for me.

我等了这么多年才等到这一天，甚至从来没敢真的相信它会实现。

I waited so many years to have this happen and I don't think I ever maybe never really thought it would.

所以整个上市日，我都像飘在自己的生活之上，旁观着这一切，有种魔幻般的感觉——这可能是最接近的描述了。

And so all during pub day, I felt a little bit like I was floating above my life and observing it or something magical sort of doesn't even touch it, but that's the closest.

这太了不起了。

That's so amazing.

好的。

Okay.

给大家介绍一下这本书吧，我也想听听你成为出版作者的这段经历。

Tell everybody about the book and then I wanna hear more about this journey to becoming a published author as well.

谢谢。

Thanks.

这本书叫《通信者》，讲的是一位叫齐比·范安特沃普的女士。

The book, the CORRESPONDENT, it's about a woman named Zibby Van Antwerp.

故事开始时，她已经七十多岁了。

She's in her 70s when we start.

整本书都是由她的信件和电子邮件组成的，主要是手写的信，也夹杂了一些邮件。

The book is written entirely in her letters and emails, primarily handwritten letters, but some emails thrown in.

故事从头开始讲起。

And it starts off at the beginning.

她刚满七十三岁，我想是这样。

She's just turned 73, I believe.

我刚才还在想，到底是七十三还是七十四？

I was just thinking, was it 73 or 74?

不过我觉得她应该是刚过完七十三岁生日。

But I think she just turned 73.

她差不多已经退休了，离了婚，一个人住，但她的态度和视角是，这将是人生最后一个阶段。

She sort of is retired, she's divorced, she lives alone and her attitude and kind of her perspective is this is the last kind of era.

这是我生命中最后的一段旅程。

This is my last kind of movement of my life.

但书的开头，一些事情就开始发生了。

But at the beginning of the book, some things start to happen.

其中之一，从一开始她就逐渐失明，而她本身是个特别爱写信的人。

One of them, from right off the bat that she's starting to go blind and then she starts to receive some, she's a big letter writer.

然后她开始收到一些意想不到的来信。

She starts to receive some letters that she wasn't expecting.

她过去生活中的一些联系，隐隐约约藏着点谜团。

There's a little bit of a mystery of a connection from previously in her life.

所以这本书真正讲的是她以为的晚年和尾声，但其实，我觉得事情并没有那么简单。

And so the book is really about this era of her life that she thought of as the end and sort of the denouement, but it turns out, I don't think it turns out to be that way.

相反，这段日子过得异常充实。

It turns out to be very full.

对我来说，这本书就像个拼图，每封信都是其中一块。

And when I really what the book is to me, it's like a puzzle and every letter is a piece.

当你读这些信的时候，其实是在拼凑她生命中的片段，一块一块地放进这个拼图里。

And so as you're reading the letters, you're sort of taking a piece of information from her life and putting it in this puzzle.

我希望，也相信，到结尾时，你会完整地看到一个人的轮廓，以及她整个人生的故事。

And I hope and I think by the end, you have this full image of a person and the whole story of her life.

你会获得一种，我想说是——

And you get this, I guess, a

对这位女性的完整画像。

portrait of this woman.

太棒了。

That's amazing.

我刚听说这本书的时候，还以为讲的是一百年前人们写信的那个年代。

When I first heard about the book, I assumed it would be set a hundred years ago when people wrote letters.

也不一定是一百年前。

Maybe not a hundred years ago.

我那天纯粹是整理书桌，翻出一堆手写的贺卡。

I was literally just, like, cleaning out my desk and finding all these, you know, personalized note cards.

我都好多年没寄过这种卡片了。

I was like, gosh, I haven't sent one of these in, like, years at this point.

真是越来越不像话了。

It's so bad.

不过这本书其实是从2012年开始，一直延续到2019年左右。

But, no, it starts in, I think, 2012 and extends on to 2019, something like that.

没错。

That's right.

所以这是现代的故事。

So it is contemporary.

然后我还注意到封面上有安·帕切特的推荐语。

And then I also saw on the cover how Ann Patchett had blurbed it.

但书里一开头，她就给安·帕切特写了一封信。

But then in the book, she writes a letter to Ann Patchett, like, right off the bat.

我当时就想，哇，这真是虚构和现实的完美融合。

And I was Woah, this is fiction marrying reality.

这到底是怎么回事？

What is going on here?

是啊。

Yeah,

她确实这么做了。

she does.

她很大胆。

She's very bold.

安妮在封面写的推荐语真的让我很感动，她愿意读我的书，还写得这么真诚。

And Anne's blurb on the front has been such a that was such a kindness of her to read my book and to blurb it that way.

不过，写信现在听起来好像过时了，但我就是想把它带进现代生活，你知道的，让它显得更贴近当下。

But, yeah, letter writing is sort of thought of as very passe, but I did wanna kind of bring it into bring it into modern, you know, modern times.

书里你用了几封邮件，但大部分还是信件。

And you have a couple emails in there, but mostly letters.

说到最后，尤其是那几封信，真的让我特别有感触。

And I have to say by the end, especially, like, the last few missives and whatever.

总之，你收尾的方式太动人了，简直太棒了。

Anyway, you just ended it on such a it was just very emotional and and just so great.

你懂的。

You know?

我就不剧透了，但真的谢谢你。

Anyway, I won't give things away, but Thank you.

用这种方式为这本书的阅读篇章画上句号，真的特别完美。

It was such a great way to sort of wrap it up wrap up this chapter, really, of our reading chapter of this book.

所以，不管怎样，为什么选这种形式？

So, anyway, why this format?

显然，这种体裁是存在的，

Like, there are obviously there's a

整个

whole

书信体文学确实存在，不过除了金·菲最近的几本书，你读过吗？

epistolary genre, but I feel like aside from Kim Fey's recent books, I don't know if you've read those.

我老听人提起，现在也把它们记在了我待读清单里。

But I keep hearing about them, and now I've added I've added them to my notepad of what I need to read.

哦，我的意思是，它们风格不一样，你知道的。

Oh, I mean, they're different, you know?

而且篇幅也更短，说到底，这也不该是重点。

And also, they're smaller and, you know, just I mean, that shouldn't be it.

但它们的不同在于，展现的是友情的两个角度。

But, you know, different in terms of, like, those are two sides of a friendship.

这是一种不同的方式，但用的是类似的手法。

It's that's it's a different but it's a similar device.

不过话说回来，为什么还要回到这种书信体的形式呢？

But anyway, why go back to this epistolary form?

比如《查令十字街84号》，那本书不就是吗？

Like, 84 Charing Cross Road, wasn't that?

算是最初的那一种吧？

Like, the original?

是的。

Yes.

太好了，你提到这个，因为我跟读书会一起读过那本书，特别喜欢，真的被深深打动了。

I'm so glad you said that because I read that book with my book club and I loved it and I was so moved by it.

那本书很短，信件也都简短，整本书篇幅不大，但这些信跨越了二十年甚至二十五年，却特别感人，我特别欣赏这一点。

And that book is very short and those letters are so brief and the book is so brief, but the letters span, I think twenty years or twenty five years, but it was so moving and I love that.

我一向爱读书，读得也挺广，但有时候拿起一本书，总觉得得深吸一口气，下定决心，告诉自己：好吧，这次我要认真读下去。

And I think, sometimes when I pick up and I have always been a reader, I feel I read pretty widely, but sometimes you pick up a book and you sort of feel like you have to take a deep breath and dive in and say like, okay, I'm gonna commit.

我记得第一次读《安娜·卡列尼娜》的时候，逼着自己每天读三十五页。

I remember when I read Anna Karenina for the first time, I had to force myself to read like 35 pages a day.

那时候就觉得，每天必须读完三十五页，不然根本读不完这本书。

It was sort of like, you have to read 35 pages a day or you will never finish this book.

所以那种书算是特别重要的一类。

And so that is one kind of important book.

但后来我读《84号查林十字街》时，感觉完全不一样，特别享受。

But then I remember reading 84 and it was such a delight.

读起来特别轻松，一点不费劲。

It just felt so easy to read the book.

每读完一页，看到一句‘真诚地’，就自然停下了，正好是个完满的结尾。

Felt, you would read the page, there's a sincerely, and it's done and there's always a nice stopping point.

读完一封信，放个书签，放下书就行。

You finish a letter, you can put the bookmark in, you can put it down.

但奇怪的是，我根本不想放书签，总想接着读下去。

But also what I found is that I'd never really wanted to put the bookmark in.

我从来不想停下，有时候读一本像牛排一样厚重的书，你总在等那个能夹书签、喘口气的时刻，因为书太密了。

I never wanted to, sometimes when you're taking a, eating a book that's like a steak, you sort of are waiting for the moment you can put the bookmark in to breathe and come up for air when books are so dense.

我有时候特别喜欢这种书，但读信件体的小说时就不一样了，比如《Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society》。

And I love those sometimes, but with a book of letters and I felt this way, there was that book, the Guernsey Literary Potato Peel Pie Society.

书名是挺长的，但我想大家都明白我说的是哪本。

That's a long title, but I think everybody knows what I'm talking about.

读这种书的时候，你就是忍不住想：‘再读一页吧。’

And that was one too that you just kind of feel like, oh, is kind I'll just read one more.

就再读一页。

It's just one more page.

再读一页就好。

I'll just read one more.

就一页。

It's one more page.

等你回过神来，已经读到结尾了。

And then you get to the end.

我特别喜欢那种轻盈的感觉。

And I love the lightness of that.

那本书有种说不出的通透感，我特别喜欢。

There was like a sort of just an airiness about that book that I loved.

读完之后，我就想，这种事我也能做。

And when I finished it, I thought I can do that.

支撑我整个写作生涯的，是一种疯狂的念头——读到一本好书。

This is this madness that has pushed me throughout my writing life is reading something.

我记得高中时第一次读《愤怒的葡萄》，当时就想着，这种事我也能写出来，简直太疯狂了。

I remember the first time was in high school I read The Grapes of Wrath and I thought I can do this, which is so insane.

但我确实这么想过，而且一直都有这种想法：我也可以做到。

But I did think that and I always kind of have that thought, I could do this.

所以我决定试试写一本由书信构成的书。

And so thought I want to try to write a book in letters.

所以真正促使我动手的，就是想写一本书信体的小说，看看自己能不能办到。

And so that really the catalyst was I want to write a book in letters and see if I can do it.

从那以后，故事就开始慢慢扩展了。

And then the story kind of started to grow after that.

但那些信件就像是我打开局面的第一刀。

But the letters were my opening kind of incision.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

我太喜欢这个了。

I love that.

我是不是记混了？

And then am I making this up?

你之前说你有个家里的朋友失去了儿子，还是我搞错了？

Did you say that you had a family friend who lost a son or am I confusing this?

对，没错。

Did, Yep, that's right.

这件事写在致谢里了，我征得了他们的同意才加进去的。

And it's in the acknowledgements, which I had their permission to put the acknowledgements.

这对他们来说当然非常敏感，但没错，是我一些特别亲近的朋友。

Obviously that's very sensitive to them, but yes, some really dear friends of mine.

我刚写完这部小说的初稿，可能是一两稿的时候，他们的儿子突然病倒，被送进了医院。

I had written the first, I think draft or two of this novel and their son got sick suddenly and was hospitalized.

在那可怕的三个月里，他的病情越来越重。

Over a really terrible three months, he grew sicker and sicker.

一开始大家还抱有很大希望，觉得一定能找出病因。

And there was a lot of hope at the beginning that they would figure out what it was.

当时提出了上百种可能的诊断方向。

And there was hundreds of ideas of what it maybe what was going on.

但几个月后，大家终于明白，这病根本无解。

And finally, after a couple of months, it became evident that it was a matter that was not solvable.

他在那年的12月2日离开了人世。

And he passed away on December 2 of that year.

他是9月底住进医院的。

He went into the hospital at the end of September.

所以那个阶段，我一直在写这本书，而失去孩子的悲痛这个主题，早就已经写进书里了。

And so that whole era, I had been working on this book and that element of grief and losing a child was already in the book.

后来，我亲身经历了这一切，和这些朋友一起走过那段日子。

And then I walked through this very closely with these friends.

我和丈夫在医院里、医院外，陪了他们很多天。

My husband and I spent many days with them in the hospital, out of the hospital.

我丈夫每天上班路上，都会给他们带咖啡，一连带了好几个星期。

My husband brought coffee to them every morning for weeks on his way to work.

那段时间，我的脑子完全被这件事占据，再也装不下别的东西。

And during that time that really shut down my brain to everything else.

那边的书，这边的生活，那一刻，只有这件事变得真实而重要。

And the books over here and my life's here and that became sort of like the only thing.

这感觉特别奇怪，因为我原本只是在写这本书，结果却亲身经历了书中的情景。

And it was so strange because I had been writing this book and then I was actually dealing with that situation.

这件事彻底改变了我。

And it changed me.

我的意思是，这不仅改变了我，也改变了我丈夫和我们的家庭，还改变了这本书。

I mean, certainly changed me and it changed my husband and our family, but it also changed the book.

等我后来在次年春天终于从那段低谷中走出来时，我又重新回到了书里。

And I went back into it when I finally kind of emerged from the pit later kind of the following year in the spring.

我带着对这一切的真实理解，重新审视了书中的内容——去体会别人经历这些时的感受和发生的一切。

I went back to the book with this new frame of reference of what that is for someone and what happens.

于是我回去修改、补充、删减，但即便如此，我依然没有真正经历过那样的处境。

Then I sort of went back and changed things and added things and took things out and realized and still I haven't had that lived experience.

虽然我最初写这部分，其实是出于一个母亲最原始的恐惧——害怕失去孩子。

Although I think I originally wrote that aspect of the book out of my sort of primary primal fear as a mother of losing a child.

但后来，我们真的经历了这些，它确实改变了这本书。

But then, we went through that and it really did.

它真的彻底改变了这本书。

It really did change the book.

我很感谢你问到这一点，因为这正是整个故事中最重要的部分。

And I'm so thankful that you asked because that's a huge part of that's the story.

我想说一说这件事。

And it's something that I want to say.

我想说，他叫韦德。

And I wanna say his name was Wade.

他叫韦德。

His name was Wade.

所以我一定要说出来。

So I wanna say that.

谢谢你问起。

Thanks for asking.

我为韦德的家人，为你们所有人感到难过。

I'm so sorry for Wade's family, for all of you.

有时候，其实关系远近也没那么重要，你知道的。

I mean, it doesn't matter sometimes, like, you know, what the relation is.

是侄子吗？

Is it a nephew?

是亲密的朋友吗？

Is it a close friend?

其实，标签并不重要。

Like, it doesn't the labels don't matter.

重要的是你和那个人之间的情感联系，那份亲近感，还有那杯咖啡的画面。

It's your emotional connection to somebody and the closeness and just that image of the coffee.

我的意思是，这怎么可能不改变你呢？

I mean, how could it not change you?

怎么可能不变呢？

Could it not?

是啊，确实如此。

It's it's Yeah.

当然，这是每个人最害怕的噩梦。

Of course, it's everybody's worst nightmare.

没错。

Right.

是的，没错。

Oh, yes.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

不过说实话，作为读者，我很高兴你没有放弃这个项目，因为我知道，你肯定有过时候觉得这到底有什么意义。

Well, I'm glad, you know, selfishly for the readers that you didn't give up on the project, you know, because I would imagine at times you were just like, what does it matter?

我懂这种感觉，我自己也经常这样。

Or I feel like I feel like I get that way.

只要一遇到特别糟的事，其他所有事我都觉得根本不重要。

Like, whenever anything really bad happens, anything else, I'm just like, what does it even matter?

我这么做到底是为了什么？

Why am I doing this?

没错，我确实有过这种想法。

Yes, I definitely did.

我确实经历过那种状态。

I definitely did have that.

这本书里有很多内容其实源自我自己的生活经历。

And I think there's a lot in this book that comes out of my own life experience.

我之前写过另一本书，我的经纪人一直试着帮它找出版机会，但都没成功。不过她总是很温柔地说：‘还没卖出去，但也许你可以试试写点别的。’

This book, I had written a different book that my agent had been trying to sell for a while and it didn't sell, but she did this beautiful dance of always saying, it's not selling yet, but maybe you should work on something else.

她特别擅长不打击我的信心，同时提醒我该去尝试新的创作了。

She was very good at not crushing my spirit, but saying you should probably start working on something else.

我开始写这本书的时候，正好是疫情期间。我们当时住在国外，但还没准备好就搬了回来，甚至之前还讨论过要不要搬回来，可最终还是不得不搬。

And so when I'd started writing this book, it was during COVID and we had been living abroad and we had moved back sort of before we wanted to and had maybe started discussing maybe we didn't want to move back and we had had to move back.

那段时间我写这本书，心里充满了悲伤和失落。书里的很多情节，都来自我当时正在经历的，或者之前经历过的事，也包括我身边人的故事。

And so I was writing it during that era of just a lot of sadness and a lot of grief and a lot of aspects of this book are pulled out of things that I was either dealing with then or had been dealing with or people that I knew.

我写这本书，是因为我已经对失败感到精疲力尽了。在这之前我写过好几本书，但没有一本能顺利出版。

And so I was writing this book because I was exhausted from the failure and I've written several books before this and none of gotten them have through the finish line of publication.

那时候我积压了太多悲伤，真的被压得喘不过气。

And so I think I had so much grief and so much, really being crushed.

我整个人都被击垮了。

I just was crushed.

我写这本书最初只是当作一种自我疗愈的练习，可能正因如此，书里才有那么多大胆的尝试，比如模仿琼·狄迪恩的语气——这些内容我根本没打算给任何人看。

And I started writing this book as an exercise, I think, for myself, which is probably why the book has such audacious moves, like writing in the voice of Joan Didion or I mean, it was things I just wasn't planning to show anyone.

我只是单纯在写。

Was just writing it.

我是在衣橱里写的。

I wrote it inside my closet.

那时候我们租的房子空间太小了。

We didn't have space in our rental at the time.

我把一张书桌塞进了衣橱里。

I shoved a desk in a closet.

我的意思是，条件真的很差。

I mean, it's very it was just low.

这一切都源于那段特别低落、充满悲伤的时光。

It was a it all came out of this very low kind of sad time.

我到现在都记不太清是怎么发生的，但后来我还是把稿子给了我的经纪人。

And I still can't quite remember how it happened, but my agent ended up I gave it to her.

她问我有没有兴趣继续写下去，反正就是这么回事。

She asked me for it or however, and she said, I think we could keep going with this if you want to.

她对我特别开明，还说我觉得这东西说不定有资格过那道坎。

She was very open handed with me, but she sort of said, I think maybe it has what it would take to get through the gate.

真是谢天谢地。

So thank God.

要不是她这么办，我都跟人说我要去读法学院了。

Thank God she did it because I've told people I had just started to think I'm going to law school.

我就打算去读法学院了。

I'm just going to go to law school.

我要干点别的了。

I'm going to do something else.

我真的写不下去了。

I can't do this anymore.

那时候我真觉得

That was

你从几岁开始想写小说的？

From what age did you wanna write a novel?

是的

Yeah,

我19岁就写了第一本小说，这应该是我的第九本了。

I wrote my first novel when was 19 and I think this is my ninth.

天哪。

Oh my.

我昨天刚用手指数了数。

I was just yesterday counting them on my fingers.

我一边念书名一边算，结果发现漏掉了一本。

I was naming the titles and kind of going through and then I realized there was one I had forgotten about.

我觉得这是我的第九本小说，当然，那些早期的都是年轻时候写的，比如19岁开始写第一本，22岁、25岁又写了，这一路走来，就是我的人生。

I think this is my ninth novel and obviously some of the really early ones, that's all you're young and maybe I wrote one when I started 19 and then maybe I'm 22 and then maybe I'm 25 and getting But through all that, that's my life.

这就是我成长的过程。

That's me growing up.

这就是我逐渐明白过来的过程，说真的，我很感恩。

That's me coming into my knowledge of, I don't know, I'm thankful.

我很感激，也许这本是我写得最好的一部，能看出我经历风霜，不再像前八本那样青涩了。

I'm thankful that maybe that this is the first one and it shows a little more of that I'm a weather beaten sort of person and not so fresh faced as I might have been my first eight novels.

不过，说实话，这段经历确实让我学到了很多，我心怀感激，但过程真的太辛苦了。

But, yeah, I think I I know the whole thing has been a huge learning experience and I'm grateful, but it was grueling.

今年秋天，就整整二十年了。

I mean, was it'll be twenty years this fall.

到那时我就三十九岁了。

I'll be I'll be 39.

整整二十年了。

So twenty years.

我有

I have the

我也是同样的情况。

same thing, by the way.

我27岁的时候试着推销我的第一本小说，投出去后到处都被拒了。

I'd tried to sell my first novel when I was 27, and it went out on submission and it was rejected everywhere.

我当时特别受打击，就像你说的，之后十多年都没再碰过小说创作。

And I was so crushed, like you said, that I, like, didn't even try fiction again for over a decade.

我就觉得，我真的不行。

Was just like, I can't.

这事儿根本就不是我能做成的。

It wasn't meant to be.

我简直不敢相信。

I can't believe it.

这真的太难了。

It is so hard.

我的意思是，真的太难了。

I mean It is so hard.

读者其实很敏感。

Readers are fragile.

你懂的。

You know?

一方面，你可能会觉得自己能超越约翰·斯坦贝克。

You can, on the one hand, think you can outdo John Steinbeck.

对吧？

Right?

可另一方面，你又觉得自己连封邮件都写不好。

And then on the other, you're like, I can't even write an email.

我明白。

I know.

这话太对了。

And that's so true.

整个经历就是，我现在已经出版了，还跟一家很棒的出版社、一支出色的团队一起开启了这么激动人心的起点，诸如此类。

And it's that whole experience, it's now I have this experience of being published and having this really exciting start with a cool publisher and with a great team and all of that.

我觉得我比以前更懂得珍惜了。

And I think I do appreciate it more.

我觉得我比谁都更珍惜这一切。

I feel like I appreciate it more than anyone appreciates it.

每次有人给我发邮件，说‘您好，您有个宣传通话安排’，

Every time someone writes me an email, hello, you have a publicity call.

我都会说，太感谢了。

I'm like, thank you so much.

我真的特别感恩。

I just feel so grateful.

我就说，谢谢。

I'm like, thanks.

去哪儿都行，什么时候都行，我都愿意。

I'll go anywhere, anytime, whatever.

我经纪人说，你也可以多提点要求。

My agent's like, you can demand a little more.

我就说，不用了，我只觉得能有今天就已经很开心了。

I'm like, no, I'm just so happy to be here.

但我觉得现在有些人会说，这一切都值得。

But I think that sometimes now people will say, it was all worth it.

值了。

It was worth that.

这其中确实有一部分是对的。

And there is one part of that that's true.

我会再做一次吗？

Would I do it again?

会，但这并不能抹去那种被拒绝上千次、独自承受的痛苦。

Yes, but it doesn't delete the agony of being alone, rejected thousands of times.

我是说，给经纪人投稿、投稿文章、发短篇小说，就是这些事。

I mean, of queries to agents, putting essays out on submission, putting short stories on some, just this.

如果我把失败的经历装满一桶，而这里只有一个微弱的光点，告诉我们：我们做到了。

If I had a bucket of failure points and then this one sort of beacon of, okay, we did it.

这并不能抹去那些痛苦，但我从不后悔，只是它们依然在那里。

This doesn't delete that, but I'm not sorry for it, but it's still there.

这些经历依然是我的一部分，我都记得。

It's still part of who I am, think all of that.

那几年真的很难熬。

It was tough, tough years.

也许现在，有了新的视角、自己的平台，还有这部重磅新书问世，那些旧点子还能重新被唤醒。

Maybe there is hope that one of the older ideas now with your new vantage point and now you have like a platform and such a big deal book coming out and all of, you know, could maybe resurrect.

是的。

Yes.

我确实想过，也一直在琢磨。

I have thought that and I do wonder.

那就走着瞧吧。

So we'll see.

我心态很开放。

I feel open handed.

如果真能成，那再好不过。

If it does, great.

如果没成，我们就继续写点新的东西。

If it doesn't, we'll just keep writing some new things.

真的很感谢你分享这么多内心的坦诚，谢谢你。

Well, I really appreciate you sharing all that vulnerability, Oh, thanks.

很多人其实都有同感，但很少有人能这么坦率地说出来。

So many people can relate to and doesn't often get really adequately shared.

我觉得人们害怕承认这个，好像如果被拒得越多，就说明自己不如那些一出手就成功的人。

So, you know, I think it people are afraid it makes them seem like, well, if if I've had more rejections, then I must not be as good a writer as someone who just had their first thing.

对吧？

Right?

他们觉得对方一定更优秀。

They must have just been better.

但根本不是这么回事。

But that's totally not it.

完全不是，可要摆脱这种想法还是很难。

Nothing at all, but still it's hard to get past that.

是的，确实如此。

Yes, it is.

如果今天我不在这儿，我可能还陷在那个低谷里。

And if I wasn't here now, I would still be in the pit.

所以我从不敢忘记这一点。

So I just never wanna forget that.

我绝不能忘记这一点。

I don't wanna forget that.

我想把这一点说出来。

And I wanna say that.

我一定会说出来。

I will say it.

我会站在每一个屋顶上大喊，因为我一路走来，特别需要有人对我说这些话。

I'll stand on every roof and scream it because I needed people to say that along the way.

我永远记得读到伊丽莎白·斯特劳特的一次访谈，她谈到自己的经历，说她做过多少份工作，一边打工一边写作，在幕后默默创作，经历了多少次被拒、多少次失败，直到年纪大了些才终于有所突破。

I'll never forget reading an interview with Elizabeth Strout and she talked about her journey and how many job jobs she had, writing on the sides, writing in the wings, how many rejections, how many failures and getting to an older age and finally kind of breaking through.

我总觉得自己像《查理和巧克力工厂》里那样飞速上升，结果一头撞上了那层玻璃天花板。

I always felt like I feel like I'm rocketing up like in Willy Wonka and then you slam your head into that glass ceiling.

很长一段时间，我一直都是这种感觉。

And that's how it felt for so long.

直到某天，那层天花板突然碎了，我才冲了出去。

And then finally it shatters and you get through.

我当时多希望有人能对我说这些话。

And I needed to hear that.

我多希望有人能说：这说的不就是我的经历吗？

I needed to hear someone else say, this was my story.

现在，我终于做到了。

And now I did it.

我就是一直坚持着，最后真的做到了。

I just kept doing it and I did it.

这些年里，我反复读到、听到这些话，次数多得我都数不清了。

And that I can't tell you how many times I would read those little things or hear those little things along the years.

每隔几年听到这样的采访，就会想：好吧，好吧。

Every couple of years hear an interview like that and think, okay, Okay.

我想我还可以再试一次，从头再来，换件事做？

I guess I can I guess I'll try again, roll it back, start over, do something else?

我很感激。

I'm thankful.

我特别感谢她，也感谢其他很多人。

I'm really thankful for that for her specifically, but other people too.

这太棒了。

That's amazing.

我特别喜欢。

I love it.

明白了。

Okay.

那我们该从齐比身上学到什么？

So what should we learn from Zibby?

你的意思是，我们从她的故事、她的生活、她的视角里，该学到什么？

Like, what is what do you want us to take away from her story, her life, her point of view?

合上书之后，你希望读者感受到什么，或者想到什么？

We put the book down, and you want people to feel or think what?

是的。

Yeah.

我写的时候，并没有设过这样的目标。

I don't know that I would say I had, a goal like that when I was writing.

我只是在写一个人的故事。

I was just writing the story about a person.

我当时想的是，就想讲一个普通人的故事，让大家看到，每个人的经历都值得被看见。

Was just, I think what I thought was, I just want to tell some very normal person's story and show that every person's story is interesting.

不管一个人外表看起来多平凡、多无聊、多简单，每个人都有自己的故事。

Every single person, no matter how sort of normal or boring or simple on the outside they seem to be that everybody has this story.

我就常想，我怎么看自己的人生，觉得我这一路挺有意思的，但别人可能只会觉得，哦，就是个住在街上的普通老太太，没什么特别的。

I mean, I think about how I see my own life and what I think about, I think, look at my life, look what has happened in my life, but maybe someone else will be like, oh, she just a lady that lives on the street, whatever.

但你知道，内心深处，我经历过丰富的人生。我刚开始写作时，就是想以一种简单而疏离的视角去看一个人，然后推开那扇门，走进去，讲出这个人经历过什么、正在经历什么。

But you know that inside, you know, I have had this big life and I think when I started writing, that was what I was wanting was to take a simple kind of distant view of a person and then open the door, climb inside and tell the story of what had happened and what was happening.

所以现在回头看这本书的结尾，我觉得——虽然我还没完整重读过全书，也许以后也不会，但我翻过一些章节，重新读过部分内容，我知道这本书想表达什么。

And so at the end of the book, I think now in hindsight looking at it and kind of, I haven't really fully reread the whole book in its entirety again, and maybe I never will, but I've sort of flipped through and reread some things and I know what the story.

我希望读者能感受到一种自由：允许自己原谅自己，明白我们都曾犯下巨大的错误。

I think I hope people will feel the freedom to forgive themselves and to say, we all make huge mistakes.

我们每个人都会犯下巨大的错误。

All of us make huge mistakes.

我犯过巨大的错误，也犯过小错，做过蠢事，伤害过别人。

I've made huge mistakes and small mistakes, and I've messed up and hurt people.

但我也是一个有尊严的人，这就是我的人生，我值得被原谅。

But also I'm a human being with dignity and this is my life and I can be forgiven.

我能够被原谅。

I can have forgiveness.

我也能原谅自己。

I can forgive myself.

我希望读者在读完这本书后，能感受到她终于获得了内心的平静。

Can like, that's what I hope at the end of the book, that's the feeling is that she can be at peace, have peace.

当你读这本书时，表面上是她的故事，但其实也串联起她身边每一个人的生活，每个人都有自己的痛苦与喜悦，悲与喜常常并存，每个角色的人生都是如此。

And I think as you read the book, it is her story, but it's also all these other stories of the lives of people that are in her life and everyone with their own massive portion of heartache and joy, like joy and sorrow in the same hand and every character's life.

我希望这本书能展现：无论来自哪个国家、家庭、阶层、政治立场或信仰背景，每个人本质上都一样——都有快乐、成功和希望，也都有悲伤和失去。

And I hope that the book shows how every person, people in this book, there's people all over the world in lots of different families and backgrounds and socioeconomic levels and political backgrounds and faith backgrounds, and that everybody in some way is the same, that they have joy and success and hope, and they also have sorrow and loss.

这一点，对我自己来说也是如此。

And that's true for me.

我相信，对每个人都是这样。

And I think that's true for everyone.

从我收到的读者反馈来看，这本书似乎真的触动了很多人。

And I hope that's like, the book seems to resonate with readers from what the feedback I've received personally.

我琢磨过原因，大概就是因为每个人读的时候，都会觉得：对，这就是我，或者这是我妈妈，或者是我认识的某个人。

And when I think about why, I think that's why, because everybody can read the book and say, yeah, that's me or yes, that's my mother or that's somebody I know or something.

所以，我希望读者合上书时，心里会涌起一种满足、温暖和安宁的感觉——仿佛在说：一切都没那么糟，一切都还好。

And so I hope the feeling when you close the book is satisfaction and fullness and warmth or something of, I don't know, that it's okay.

你只是个普通人，已经尽力了。

You're just a person and you did your best.

你已经在尽力了。

You're doing your best.

就算出了错，也没关系。

And if you messed up, it's okay.

有人深爱着你。

There's people that love you.

你被爱着。

You're loved.

我希望这本书里能传递出一点这样的东西——也许写作时，我最需要听到的就是这些。

I hope there's something in that in the book, which was probably what I was needing to hear when I was writing it.

也许写作时，我最需要感受到的，就是这些。

It was probably what I was needing to feel when I was writing it.

你一定是个特别好的朋友。

You must be such a good friend.

不是。

No.

真的吗？

Really.

我猜你的朋友们一定特别幸运，能有你这么一个知心朋友，因为你总是那么有同理心，陪伴在旁，还带着一种老成的智慧。

I bet your friends are, like, so lucky that you're a close friend because you are so, like, empathetic and present and have that, like, old soul wisdom to you and all that.

你一眼就能看出来。

So you can just tell.

谢谢。

Thanks.

不管怎样，

Anyways,

你是在用这个做卡片吗？

are you making cards with this?

就是说，会出配套的卡片，上面画着这些小鸟之类的吗？

Like, are there going to be the correspondent cards with these little birds and everything?