第147集：RED-S、恢复与未被计入的压力

不。

No.

我们要确保没有女性进行胸垫作弊，因为显然，如果你填满那个空间，就像在铁人三项中看到的那样，人们把水壶放在运动衫前面，一部分是为了方便，一部分可能是为了更符合空气动力学，但有研究表明，减少中空空间，比如填满胸部区域，可能让人提高3.6%的表现。

We're gonna be making sure that no women are bra doping because apparently, if you fill that space, you see it like on triathlon like in triathlons where people put like a water bottle down the front of their jersey, partly it's convenient, partly maybe you're becoming more aerodynamic, but there is research that would suggest that creating less hollow space, I e, like filling in your chest region, could make someone 3.6% better.

这让我想起那些往松鼠服里塞东西的家伙。

This is remind reminding me of the guys, like, stuffing their squirrel suit.

还记得吗？

Remember this?

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

不。

No.

他们给自己的私处打肉毒杆菌。

They were doing Botox to their junk.

好吧。

Well, okay.

就像鸡蛋的等价物。

The egg equivalent.

哦，对，是的。

Oh, like, yes.

真像。

So similar.

所以就是做点小整容手术。

So some just a little cosmetic surgery.

是永久还是半永久的调整或增强？

A permanent or semi permanent adjustment enhancement?

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

嗯，我也不确定。

Well, I don't know.

增强运动表现倒是可以，但其他地方可能就不太合适了。

Enhancement for performance in sport, yes, but maybe not for any anywhere else.

可能其他方面就不太会用了。

Probably not other reasons.

反正就这样吧。

Anyways, okay.

对。

Yeah.

我们跑题了。

We digress.

不过说真的，虽然有点好笑，但也挺有意思的。

But, yeah, so that that was, like, kinda silly, but also very interesting.

虽然没人被指控使用兴奋剂，但这事儿在个人计时赛前就被提出来了。

Don't I think anyone is accused of bra doping, but it was something that was brought up ahead of the individual time trial.

我还想特别提一下另一位选手，法国车手奥赛恩·马希。她在环法之前拿到了圆点衫，后来她分享说，为了减轻体重以在骑行中表现更好而刻意减重，结果导致月经停止。

And the other one I really wanted to highlight was Ocean, Mahi, a French rider who won the polka dot jersey ahead of the tour, kind of began to share about how she previously lost weight to be lighter on the bike and subsequently lost her period because of it.

她现在其实已经把体重补回来了，但激素水平还没恢复，这也很合理。

And she has actually since gained that weight back, but her hormones have not yet recovered, which makes sense.

她还在训练，不过可能得休息相当长一段时间，才能把身体状态重新调整过来。

She's still training, and she would probably need to take, like, significant maybe time off even to rebalance what might be going on there.

但实际上，当她赢得圆点衫的时候，因为她在环赛中途就已经基本锁定胜局了，她利用这个机会进一步强调这一点，说：嘿，我想说的是，这并不正常。

But effectively, when she won the polka dot jersey, because she kind of, like, had it locked mid tour, She used that moment to actually like just kind of double down on this and say, hey, I just wanna like say that like this isn't normal.

停经是不正常的。

Losing your period isn't normal.

你知道的，这是女性运动员三联征（RED-S）和相对能量不足在运动中的表现（LEA），重要的是要提醒大家，第一，停经或月经不规律是不正常的；第二，无论什么运动、任何体型，都可能受到这些问题的影响。这也是我们今天会回过头来讨论的话题，但我认为这在环赛中是一个非常关键的时刻。

That, you know, this is an indicator of RED S and LEA, and that it's important to, like, remind everyone that one, losing or having irregular periods are not normal, and that two, RED S and LEA can affect any athlete in any sport at any size, which is something we'll circle back on today, but I thought that was just like a very pertinent moment in the tour.

去年保罗·普鲁比奥（Pauline ProBio）夺冠后，我们聊过她当时可能故意稍微调整体重，以便更好地发挥她的瓦特每公斤功率优势。

We talked last year after Pauline ProBio won that about her intentionally kind of maybe, like, messing with her weight a little bit to to capitalize on her watts to kilo.

今年没成功。

Did not work out this year.

她这个赛季在自行车上表现不太好，那是不是跟那有关？

She hasn't had a great season on the on the bike, and is that due to maybe some of that?

也许吧。

Maybe.

但这正好提醒我们，你需要尽可能强壮，而这并不意味着尽可能轻。

But just a good it's a constant reminder, right, that you need to be as strong as possible, and that does not mean being as light as possible.

这就是我不同意的地方。

That's that's the thing that I disagree with again.

我们回头再聊这个。

Like, and we'll circle back to this.

这不是我的权利，也不是我的专业领域，去评论别人的体重和体型。

It's like, it's not it's not it's not within, you know, my right or like area of expertise to comment on someone else's body weight and size.

但我也觉得，故意减肥可能会偏离你自然的身体状况，偏离你真正最强壮的状态，以及能够恢复和承受这些多日耐力赛事训练负荷的状态。

But I also think that like intentionally losing weight, you could kind of miss the mark on actually where your natural physiology lands and where you are actually at your strongest and also able to recover and sustain the training load that takes for these long multi day endurance events.

所以我觉得，还是要摆脱对体重和外形的关注，更多关注我的身体到底在告诉我什么。

And so I think, again, it's like trying to get away from that emphasis on weight and what that looks like, but more of an emphasis on like, what is actually my physiology telling me?

除了体重秤上的数字，还有哪些数据点呢？

What are more data points than just actually number on a scale?

比如我的血液检查结果说明了什么？

Like what is my blood work telling me?

我的激素水平怎么样？

What is my hormones?

因为就像你说的，那个女性的例子，她的月经恢复了，但数据仍然显示她还没有完全恢复。

Cause it did just like you said, the example of this woman is she's gotten her period back, but still there's data points showing that she's not fully recovered.

所以这也很有意思。

So that's also interesting.

蒂拉。

Tila.

蒂拉？

Tila?

对。

Yeah.

我也特别为她感到骄傲，因为她愿意坦诚地说：‘我现在正面临这个问题，过去我也做过类似的事，现在我正在努力调整方向。’尽管她已经在高水平比赛中取得了成绩，并且做出了调整，但她依然清楚地意识到，自己的身体还没有完全恢复，能量储备仍然不足。

So I'm also just really proud of her for saying, like, hey, this is going on, and this I did this in the past, and I've I've tried to course correct for it now, and she's competing at a really high level having course corrected, but she's still recognizing that her body is not is not completely happy and is still depleted.

所以我想特意提一下这一点，希望那些真正需要听到这些话的人能有所启发。

So just wanted to, like, earmark that for those who really need to hear that.

而且今天我们会再次回到这个话题深入讨论。

And again, we'll be doubling back on that today.

还有一件事。

One last thing.

还有一件事。

One last thing.

顺便提一下，最近有个新的全国民调，是关于女子体育赛事的热度，以及大家观看和获取赛事资源的难度。结果显示，我们根本没法每天全程看完环法自行车赛女子组的所有赛段。

Tour adjacent, adjacent, let's say, was that a new national poll came out about kind of like the popularity of women's sports versus how hard it is to access and view it still, and it's like, we couldn't watch the whole stage of every day of the Tour de France Femmes.

就像今年早些时候 Giro（环意自行车赛）那样，可能也是类似的情况吧？

Like, Like, that happened earlier in the year with the Giro, maybe?

这又是一个反复出现的问题。

It was another like, this is like a recurring issue.

就像公路世锦赛或者砾石世锦赛。

It's like road worlds or gravel worlds.

它们都有这些问题，比如女子比赛因为某种原因没有播出。

Like, they've all had these issues too where, like, women's races isn't shown for some reason.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

就是说，国家和全球的兴趣是有的，但人们很难找到相关内容。

This idea that, like, national and global interest is there, but it's really hard for people to find stuff.

一项新的全国民调发现，只有42%的女子体育迷表示他们能观看大部分或全部想看的比赛，而整体体育迷中这一比例接近60%。

And so it says a new national poll found only 42% of women's sports fans say that they can access most or all the games they want to watch compared to nearly 60% of sports fans overall.

所以如果你想看男子体育，那也很复杂，因为流媒体是个噩梦，你得拥有每一个流媒体应用才能看到你支持的队伍比赛。

So if you're into finding men's sports, it's still complicated because streaming is a nightmare, and you have to own, like, every streaming app to be able to watch your team play.

但女子体育这边更难，你知道，大约40%的人能找到他们想看的，场馆运营商表示，这种差距反映了流媒体和转播权的碎片化，而不是缺乏粉丝兴趣。

But even harder on the women's side with, you know, about 40% being able to find what they want, venue operators say the gap reflects fragmented streaming and broadcast rights rather than lack of fan interest.

所以这就像是，好吧。

And so it's like, k.

如果我们不确保大家能看到女子比赛，那实际上是在让女性倒退。

Like, we're putting women back by not making sure that we have access to their stuff.

同样的道理，就像女子体育赛事没有被纳入奥运会或被奥运会取消时，人们会说，如果不给她们在世界最大舞台上展示的机会，你怎么指望这项运动发展呢？

It's the same reason, like, when a women's when a women's sporting event isn't brought into the Olympics or is cut from the Olympics, it's like, well, how do you want the sport to grow if they're not given an opportunity to be on the world's biggest stage?

如果我们无法观看女子体育比赛，你怎么指望女子体育的粉丝和人气增长呢？

Like, how do you want women's sports fans to grow and popularity to grow if there isn't an ability for us to watch it?

完全同意。

Totally.

对。

Yeah.

所以

So

这很关键。

And that's essential.

对。

Yeah.

说教。

Soapbox.

好吧，我现在就结束关于女子体育的说教。

Like, will now step off my soapbox of women's sports.

不。

No.

你还在说。

You're still Never.

我们永远不会。

We're never.

我们永远不会不。

We're never no.

我们总是

We're always

就是那个话题。

on that.

我们永远不会结束。

We're never done.

好。

Okay.

那正是我想说的意思。

That's really what I wanted to say.

我想指出，女子环法自行车赛发生了一些糟心的事。

I wanted to highlight that some sick stuff happened to the Tour de France Femmes.

德米赢了。

Demi won.

好样的！

Bravo.

耶！

Woo hoo.

她指了指自己的头，意思大概是，她经常谈论心理健康，以及处于顶尖位置、想要保持顶尖并达成目标在心理上有多难。

Pointed to her head, and the kind of the idea was that, like, it's she's talked a lot about mental health and how how mentally hard it is to be at the top and to wanna be at the top and to, like, get it done.

而且看起来，她找到了平衡的方法，她的团队也是业内最棒的。

And seemingly, she's found a way to balance that, and her team is the best in the biz.

他们帮她穿上了黄衫，并且一直保持到终点，这真是了不起的大事。

And they got her they got her into yellow, and they kept her in yellow, and that is a huge freaking deal.

对。

Mhmm.

关注女子环法。

Watch the femmes.

加油。

Let's go.

好的。

Alright.

还有最后一件事。

Last thing too.

好的。

Okay.

最后，还有一件事。

Finally, one more thing.

再讲一件事，然后我们就去土豆频道见。

One more thing, and then we'll meet in potatoes.

之前有个病毒式传播的视频，有人拍了一段，我们得去找找看。视频里是给Tare做了一顶帽子，上面写的是‘丈夫和男友’，而不是常见的‘妻子和女友’。

There was a viral video that someone did, and we should find it, with with Tare, and they made him a Ushka's hab, husbands and boyfriends, instead of wag with wife and girlfriend.

上面写着‘乌什卡的爱好’，还画了个箭头指向他，他当时戴着这个

So it says, Ushka's hab on it with an arrow pointing up to him, and he wore it

对。

Yes.

大概是在巡演第八或第九场的时候，他们采访了他，聊到他女朋友有多棒之类的。哎呀，他是来给谁加油的？

On like stage eight or nine of the tour, and they did this whole interview with him about like, how amazing his girlfriend is, like, oh, he's oh, who are you here to cheer?

哦，我是来给我未婚妻乌什卡加油的，诸如此类的话。

Oh, I'm here to cheer, You know, my fiance, Ushka, like, all this stuff.

然后他们就说，哦，你骑自行车吗？

And they're like, oh, like, do you ride bikes?

然后就说，哦，是的。

It's like, oh, yeah.

我和她一起骑，有时候她还会把我甩在后面。

I ride with her, and, like, sometimes she drops me.

就是那种很温馨搞笑的时刻，他在男子自行车界可以说是最厉害的人物。

Like, it's just, like, such a kind, funny moment of him being like, he is the biggest deal in the world when it comes to men's cycling in so many ways.

他是顶尖中的顶尖，但他能这样自嘲，还全力支持他的未婚妻，真的很暖心。我觉得他穿着那件乌什卡的帽子衫，简直是完美，塔德。

Like, he is the best of the best, but for him to be like making fun of himself, and like, all all in support of his fiancee was really sweet, and I think him rocking the Ushka's hab shirt was just like, chef's kiss, Tade.

完美。

Chef's kiss.

你看，从这个角度说，最厉害的人往往是最会享受乐趣的。

See, and and to that extent, it's like the best in the world are the ones having fun with it.

确实如此。

So True.

如果你不相信我，去看环法女子赛的最后一个赛段，在那之后我更是塔德的超级粉丝了。

If you didn't if you don't believe me, watch the last stage of the the Tour de France Femmes, and I'm even bigger of a fan of Tade after that.

对。

Yeah.

对，百分之百。

Yeah, a thousand percent.

好了，我们让你兴奋又开心，可能也让你有点生气和激动，现在我们要用我们所有的强烈感受来收尾。

Well, okay, so we've gotten you all hyped and happy, we've probably gotten you a little angry, and riled up, and now we're gonna wrap it up with all of our big feelings.

还有去掉肉和土豆。

And removing meat and potatoes.

所以稍微铺垫一下，Hilli，我们之前聊过这个。

So just to set the set the stage a little bit, like, Hilli, we've talked about this.

我们犹豫过要不要进行这次对话。

We waffled if we were gonna have this conversation or not.

我觉得这会是一个不一样的对话，一个氛围轻松的节目，但会带点科学，也带点真实生活的整体视角。

It's gonna be, I think, a different conversation, a vibey episode, but with a little bit of science and a little bit of, like, holistic real life.

这个话题通常更像是基利擅长的领域。

This is a topic that's typically more in, like, Keely's wheelhouse.

我们之前主要是从科学角度来谈的，但今天想从个人体验出发。

We've approached it really from the science side, but we're taking a personal spin today.

所以我想知道，我们今天要聊什么？

So I'm wondering what what are we diving into?

对。

Yeah.

就像你说的，基利对这个话题特别有热情，尤其是从她的研究视角来看。

Like you said, this is a topic that Keely's very passionate about, especially from her, like, the research lens.

但我觉得其中很重要的一部分不仅仅是关注实验室和数据。

But I mean, I think there's a really important piece of it that's not just focused on labs and data.

更重要的是，你身体的实际感受，以及如何倾听这些感受。

It's about like, how do you actually feel in your body and like listening to that.

所以，是的，我们今天要聊RED-S和LEA，但更多是从……嗯，对。

So, yeah, we're gonna talk about RED S and LEA today, but more from yeah.

就像，像是一个个人经历故事的角度。

Like a like a personal journey story kind of perspective.

而且我觉得，我真的希望它能鼓励人们，让大家更诚实、更现实地看待这件事，也许不要觉得‘哦，这不可能发生在我身上’。

And I think really what I hope it does is I hope it encourages people to to like not to to be more, I think, honest and realistic about what it is and maybe not think about it as like, oh, this is something that actually can't happen to me.

只是，我觉得，对这件事有一个更广阔的视角。

But just having just a more, I think, broader perspective when it comes to it.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，为了给大家铺垫一下，我们之前当然聊过这个话题，特别是从科学、健康和研究的视角。

And I think just like to set the stage for people, we've talked about this before, obviously, particularly from like the science and like health and research lens.

但对于那些刚听我们播客，或者对这个话题不太熟悉的朋友，你能在我们深入之前定义一下LEA和RED S吗？

But for those who are newer to our podcast, or newer to this topic, can you define LEA and RED S as we dive in?

好的。

Yeah.

LEA，就是低能量可用性。

So LEA, it's low energy availability.

所以基本上就是，身体在训练、生活和压力消耗之后，没有足够的能量来维持基本功能了。

And so this basically just means that the body doesn't have enough fuel left over for like basic functions once like the training and life and like the stress part has kind of taken its share.

对吧？

Right?

比如免疫反应、激素调节，还有月经周期和生育这些。

So we think about that for like immune response, hormone regulation for your menstrual cycle reproduction.

对吧？

Right?

还有情绪稳定，所有跟激素相关的，还有新陈代谢。

But then also, yeah, Just like mood stabilization, all of these things that hormones are involved in, metabolism.

对。

Yeah.

比如睡眠质量，这些都会受影响。

Like quality of sleep, all of these things that it can affect.

基本上就是，除了训练之外，没有足够的能量来维持代谢功能了。

Basically, there's just not enough fuel to go around for metabolic function on top of training.

那么，你的身体的首要任务就是让你活下去。

Then It's your body's job to keep you alive.

所以它会采取一些措施来确保这一点。

So it's gonna do stuff to make sure that can happen.

身体真的很聪明。

It's really smart.

所以它就像，好吧，如果我们把大量能量用于训练，那我们现在就不生孩子了，所以，啪，我们就把月经周期停掉。

So it's like, okay, well, if we're taking a lot of energy for training, well, we're not having a baby right now, so boop, we're gonna stop our our cycle.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

身体这么聪明，真是有点不可思议。

It's like, it's kind of crazy how smart our body is.

它就像，好吧，我们不需要那个。

It's like, well, we don't need that.

还有，你有没有注意到你的性欲会下降？

Like and then, have you noticed that your sex drive goes down?

嗯，也许那是一个因素。

Well, maybe that's a factor.

也许也是健康的一个指标。

And and a barometer of health maybe.

总之，然后那个RED S，这是一种综合征。

Anyways, then then the RED S, this is it's a syndrome.

它是运动中的相对能量缺乏。

It's relative energy deficiency in sport.

这更像是由于长期低能量可用性（LEA）导致的一系列广泛的生理和心理后果。

And this is like a this is more kind of like the wide range of physiological and psychological consequences that result of they're resulting from a low energy availability, so LEA for like an extended period of time.

所以基本上，是的。

So this is where basically yeah.

再次强调，通过食物摄入的能量无法满足身体在训练、恢复、比赛以及基本生理功能上的需求，这种情况持续很长时间。

Again, where the energy that you take through food is not matched for what your body needs in training, recovering, racing, basic physiological function for a long period of time.

因此，你会看到激素调节方面的缺陷，也就是月经周期的丧失。

And therefore, you see deficits in hormone regulation, aka loss of loss of your menstrual cycle.

还有组织修复，比如软组织损伤，还有骨骼，对吧？

And then also tissue repair, like soft tissue injuries and also like bone, right?

这就是我们可能遇到的问题。

This is where we can get that.

或者你老是生病。

Or you're getting sick all the time.

你可能会注意到情绪失调，这也许不是你平常的状态。

You're noticing that you're in like you can have mood dysregulation that's maybe not normal or typical to you.

对。

Yeah.

所以事情开始变得不对劲了。

So things are starting to get out of whack.

对。

Yeah.

这就像那种，可能对从小就知道女性运动员三联征的人来说很熟悉。

And it's one of those things where like, this probably sounds familiar to like people who grew up with the female athlete triad.

是啊。

Mhmm.

对吧？

Right?

就像说的是，你吃的不够，月经也不规律，然后就导致骨质疏松和骨损伤。

Where it's like, okay, so you have, you know, not enough food, menstrual irregularity, leading to osteoporosis and bone injury.

后来RED S（相对能量缺乏）这个概念也涵盖了男性运动员，广泛包括所有运动员。

And RED S was expanded to include male athletes as well, athletes broadly and in general.

所以他们不会有月经周期紊乱，但可能会注意到性欲变化，或者人们会聊到晨起勃起，比如有没有这样的情况。

So where they won't lose their cycle, they might notice their sex drive changes, or, you know, people talk about morning erections, and like, does that happen or not?

这些都是更正常的生理现象，同样也可能导致男性跑者出现骨应力损伤等问题。

Things that are more physiologically normal, and that can also lead to things like bone stress injuries in male runners as well.

但核心是它涵盖的范围很广，不仅仅针对有月经的运动员。

But the idea being that this is all encompassing to not just be focused on athletes who do menstruate, for example.

那么我想现在深入聊一下这个话题。

And then I guess I wanted to dig in a little bit now.

我这样把你的提纲打乱了，不过我觉得衔接得挺好的。

I messed up your outline in doing so, but I think it ties in well.

就是，当你听到“我吃得不够，无法维持身体的正常节奏和活动量”时，我觉得很容易就联想到进食障碍。

Is that, like, when you hear, like, I'm not eating enough to to maintain my my body's normal rhythm plus my activity, I think it's really easy to jump to disordered eating.

虽然很多运动员确实可能有这个问题，但这里并不总是这样。

And while that could be present for many athletes, it's not always the case here.

所以我想知道，我们能不能深入探讨一下这种潜在的关系，以及它在LEA和RED S的更广泛背景下意味着什么。

So I'm wondering if we can just dig into that potential relationship and what that means in the broader context of LEA and RED S.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这真的很重要，因为再说一次，我认为这也很棘手，因为即使你谈论的是进食障碍，这种削减通常更属于有意的行为，比如故意限制食物，更刻意地想要控制体重和体型。

And I think this is actually really important because again, I think and this is also tricky too because even when you're talking about an eating disorder, this cut more typically falls into the category of intentional, like restriction of food and like more intentional to have some sort of like control over body weight and size.

但LEA和RED S实际上可能让你在非常无意的情况下进入这种状态。

But LEA and RED S can actually you can get in this state like very unintentionally.

我的意思是，运动本身并不是食欲抑制剂，尤其是耐力运动。

I mean, exercise in and of itself isn't appetite suppressant, especially like endurance.

我的意思是，因为你想啊，基本上就是把葡萄糖释放到血液里。

I mean, because like when you think about it, you're, you know, like basically liberating glucose into your bloodstream.

你的肌肉就像海绵一样把它吸收掉。

Your muscles are like soaking it up like a sponge.

然后当你停止运动时，你并不会完全停止这个过程。

And then that when you stop exercising, you don't basically just stop that.

它有点像涓流效应。

It kind of is like a trickle effect.

所以这种效应会持续一个多小时，但运动后你不一定会觉得饿，尽管你应该吃东西。

So you have that effect for like over an hour, but you don't necessarily feel hungry post exercise even though you should be eating.

对吧？

Right?

然后如果我们都是那种高效率的人，你继续做下一件事，然后基本上你的皮质醇水平就会接管，你的饥饿信号会被进一步抑制。

And then if we're all like high functioning individuals and you're like going on to the next thing, and then, you know, basically your cortisol levels kind of take over and then your cues for hunger are dampened even further.

所以你可能无意中就进入了低能量可用状态，进而导致RED S。

And so you can kind of get into this low energy availability and consequently RED S unintentionally.

我觉得，最好的解决办法就是，嗯，我们待会儿再聊这个。

And I think about this of like, you know, you can the best way out of it is just like well, we'll talk about this later.

但我也意识到，这不一定是你故意不给自己补充能量。

But I it's also just being aware that it's not necessarily you're trying to like an intentional way of not fueling yourself.

更多是所有这些压力累积起来，不仅仅是训练压力，还有生活压力和生活需求，如果你不注意，或者无法应对，很快就会让你陷入这种能量不足的状态。

It's mostly just like all of these things that add up to stress, not only just training stress, but other life stress and life demands can kinda put you into this deficit pretty quickly if you don't actually if you're a, not aware of it, and then b, can't get on top of it.

对。

Yeah.

所以这就是为什么我们强调运动中进食的重要性。

And so like this is why we stress how important it is to eat during exercise.

比如，如果你要进行训练，或者长跑，在运动过程中补充能量非常重要，部分原因是你运动结束后不会陷入那么大的能量亏空。

For example, if you are going on if you're doing workouts, if you're doing long runs, fueling that work during the work is so important in part because you're you're coming out of that exercise without being in such a huge hole.

还是有亏空。

There's still a hole.

还是有能量不足，但不会像空腹或不补充能量时那么严重。

There's still a deficit, but it's not as massive of if you were fasted or not fueling on these activities.

而且，当你补充了能量，你会感觉好很多，但这对很多耐力运动员来说是个滑坡，比如，你离车还有三十分钟，为什么要吃最后一支能量胶呢？

Plus, you feel so much better when you're fueled, but this is like a slippery slope for a lot of endurance athletes if, you know, you're thirty minutes from the car, so why would you have that last gel?

嗯，你需要那最后一支能量胶，因为你的身体需要卡路里和碳水化合物，而且，运动后你还得继续补充能量，因为你说得对。

Well, you need that last gel because your body needs the calories and the carbohydrates, and also, like, you have to continue to refuel your body post activity because you're right.

我们训练量很大。

Like, we are training a lot.

我们让身体承受了很多。

We're asking our bodies to do a lot.

当我们有一段时间营养不足时，就会无意中让自己陷入急性低能量可用性的境地。

And when we have periods of time where that's inadequate, this is how you end up unintentionally putting yourself in a position where, yeah, you've got acute LEA.

如果长期这样，就会出现相对能量缺乏综合征，以及由此引发的并发症。

And if you do that for a long long time, you have reds and the complications from reds or red s.

所以，是的。

So yeah.

这真是个滑坡。

It's a slippery slope.

确实如此。

It is.

你提到的碳水化合物部分其实非常重要，尤其是对女性来说。

And the carbohydrate piece you mentioned is actually really important, especially for women.

比如，碳水化合物通常，红S状态就是由于缺乏碳水化合物导致的。

Like, the carbo usually, it's like a state of red s due to a lack of carbohydrates specifically.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们也看到，在一些人群中，他们可能非常注重摄入大量蛋白质，所以他们的热量可能足够，但如果没有在运动期间和全天摄入足够的碳水化合物，我们仍然会看到人们，尤其是女性，因此出现激素失调。

So we see this too in, like, in in populations where they might be really focused on, like, eating a lot of protein, and so there may be their calories are fairly adequate, but without adequate carbohydrate intake during exercise and throughout the day, we see people still, particularly women, end up with hormonal dysregularity because of it.

所以，团队，继续记下你的零食小笔记吧。

So just keep making little notes about your snacks, team.

准备好那些餐食。

Prep those meals.

把那个东西放在车里，随时准备好。

Have that thing ready for you in the car.

但我想我们还想聊聊其他一些影响因素。

But I guess we wanna talk a little bit about kind of like those other factors at play as well.

因为我们今年围绕你自己的经历来讨论，比如我们在这个播客里聊过受伤以及所有的不确定性，但我觉得最近我们也有一些新的发现，关于可能是什么导致了这一切，其中一些是我们之前谈过的压力，但就是，所有这些的更大背景。

And so because we're framing this around your own experience this year broadly, like we've talked about being injured on this podcast and the uncertainty of all that, but we've also, I think, had some more revelations recently about what was maybe some of some of the precursor for this, some of this being stress that we've talked about before, but just, like, a broader context to all that.

所以我想知道，当你回顾这些时，你觉得LEA和RED S可能在哪些方面潜伏在表面之下，而你没有注意到，或者直到现在才知道，毕竟事后诸葛亮嘛。

So I'm wondering as you reflect on this, what ways do you think LEA and RED S may have been lurking beneath the surface in ways that you were, I don't know, just like not looking out for or didn't know were there until now we know hindsight is twenty twenty.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，我觉得过去，Corrine，我们之前谈过这个。

So for me, I think in the past, like, Corrine, we've talked about this before.

就像我的意图是，我总是精力充沛，所以总是想做更多。

It's like my intention was like, I've always have a lot of energy and so I'd always like do more.

实际上，这是很久以来第一次，我换了教练，我一直和Matt Lay合作，他是个很棒的科学专家。

And for the first time in a while, actually, like I switched coaches and I've been working with Matt Lay and he's like an awesome scientist.

他有博士学位。

He's got like a PhD.

他太聪明了。

He's so smart.

对。

Yeah.

跟他合作真的很棒。

It's like, he's an amazing working with him.

我想跟这种水平的人合作，因为他能挑战我，也能对我说不。

And I want to work with someone, you know, who of that caliber because he can challenge me and tell me no.

我们做的最大的改变就是让我少做一些。

And basically the biggest thing that we changed was me doing less.

那是个很棒的改变。

And so that was an awesome change.

但后来我觉得，当我为公路马拉松训练时，那是我练得最狠的一次。

But then basically, I think what happened is when I trained for the road marathon, it was like the most intense it ever done.

但就像典型的山地赛那样，我跑完休斯顿马拉松，然后去国际旅行，在四个星期内去了三个国家，还要在不同时区之间倒时差，加上旅行带来的压力，努力恢复。

But I think like in true and hilly fashion, then I like do the Houston marathon and then I go on an international trip and I'm in three countries in the course of, you know, four weeks and, you know, trying to recover on top of like different time zones and all the stress that goes with travel.

我觉得我和Matt详细讨论过，那可能就是训练中出错的地方。

I think that, like Matt and I discussed this like at length of that was maybe where the error in training was.

也许不是训练出错，而是恢复出错。

Maybe not an error in training, but an error in recovery.

基本上就是恢复不足。

Basically like under recovered.

所以，因为那大概正好是六周。

And so, because it's basically that was like exactly like six weeks.

然后就在那时，受伤发生了。

And then this is when, that's when the injury happened.

因为，是的，尤其是从我一生都知道红屁股这件事。

Because, yes, especially from I've known about red ass my entire life.

我的意思是，我大学时有过饮食失调的历史。

I mean, I have a history of an eating disorder from back in college.

我非常清楚补充能量的重要性，以及为了做到这一点，为了让我的身体能够承受训练，需要怎么做。

I'm very aware of the importance of fueling and how in order to do that, in order to have my body be able to handle the training.

所以我一直很注意我的饮食补给。

And so I've been very deliberate about how I fuel.

但是，我觉得如果你的身体因为睡眠不足而荷尔蒙失调，你还能不能好好听自己饥饿的信号呢？

However, I think again, if your body's dysregulated hormonally from a lack of sleep, can you adequately listen to your cues to hunger?

而且那些信号真的够吗？

And are those actually enough?

结果发现，有时候可能确实不够。

And it turns out maybe in sometimes they aren't.

所以基本上，我觉得让我陷入这种状况的，而且幸好我有一位很棒的医生，Golden的Teddy Broth。

And so basically then I think personally kind of what put me down into this, and thankfully I have another, like an amazing doctor, Teddy Broth in Golden.

我跟他合作好几年了。

I've been working with him for years.

基本上，他就说，好吧，Hill，我们需要追踪，需要更多数据。

And basically it's like, he was like, okay, Hill, we need to track we need to get more data.

我们需要做一些血液检查之类的。

We need to track, have some more like blood tests.

所以我们得到了更多的信息点。

And so we're getting kind of more information points.

它指向了，你知道，基本上是一种慢性的，不，不是慢性的，而是短期的低能量可用性，伴随着激素，还有其他因素，比如甲状腺激素，不仅仅是雌激素。

And it was pointing to like, you know, basically a chronic not chronic, but like a short term low energy availability with basically hormones in combination with other factors like thyroid hormone as well, not only just estrogen.

然后我回想起来，我就想，这是因为我也在创业公司工作，有更多时间，但训练少了。

And then I'm thinking back to it and I'm just like, this is because I also, you know, was like working at this startup and I had more time, but I was training less.

但因为训练少了，我的身体在恢复。

But just because you're training less, my body was healing.

但因为训练少了，我就想，好吧，热量消耗少了。

But because I was training less, I was like, okay, there's less caloric expenditure.

我有更多时间，基本上每天在实验室待十一个小时，加上训练和通勤。

I have more time to spend basically eleven hour days in the lab plus training and like a commute.

然后基本上就是不对劲。

And then it just basically didn't add up.

我觉得获得那些额外的数据点真的很有帮助。

And I think getting those extra data points was just like a really yeah.

这真的让我深有感触，就像在问自己，你为什么要这样做？

It just really hit home of like, okay, why are you doing this?

而且，什么才是衡量健康的标准？

And like, what is a measure of health?

健康的标准就是不断做更多吗？

Is a measure of health just like keeping on doing more?

还是说，我们需要退一步，真正看看身体给你的数据，然后踩刹车？

Or is it like, okay, do we need to take a step back and actually look at the data of what your body's telling you to kind of pump on the brakes?

我觉得这真的很难，尤其是对我而言，因为有时候我觉得，不只是我，那些非常活跃但又很聪明的人，他们或者我们，都是行动派。

And I think this is really hard, especially for me, because sometimes I think and not just me, but people who are very active, but then also very intelligent people is that they wanna or we're doers.

我们想要做事情。

We wanna do things.

即使我们可能在高强度的工作中，训练少了，但这并不意味着你身体的整体压力和负荷有什么不同。

And just because we're maybe doing like in a high functioning job and like training less doesn't mean that actually the overall stress and load on your body is any different.

事实上，在压力大的时期，它可能反而更高。

In fact, it actually might be higher in periods of stress.

而且，所有这些都可能是食欲抑制剂。

And again, all of these things might be like appetite suppressants.

所以对我来说，除了血液检查之外，我已经有了一个很棒的团队，但我觉得，好吧，我需要再找一个人加入。

So for me, like in addition to that blood work, it's like, I already have a great team, but it's like, okay, well I need to bring someone else on.

而且我特别擅长听从指示。

And I do really well with following directions.

所以那时候我就想，好吧，我觉得我需要找个营养师来真正帮我度过这个阶段，这样就不会发展成某种慢性低能量可用性的问题，因为除此之外，我其实感觉很好。

So that's like when I was like, okay, well, I think I need to get a dietitian to actually like really help me through this this point so that it doesn't develop into some sort of like chronic low energy availability thing because otherwise, I actually feel great.

但我觉得，作为运动员，我们也很擅长在累的时候继续做事。

But it's like, I think as athletes, we're also pretty good about like doing things when we're tired.

所以，也许我真的不知道自己能感觉多好。

So like, maybe I actually don't know how good I could feel.

嗯，我觉得当你实际上有代谢损伤时，这也很困难。

Well, I think it's also hard when you have, like, effectively a metabolic injury.

就像，是的，你有身体损伤，比如应力性骨折，但你也有代谢损伤，就像，应力性骨折在愈合，它在做它的事，或者你感觉不坏，疼痛减轻了，你能动了，但你有这个东西仍然在表面之下，它是激素性的，是代谢性的，而这正是LEA和RED S这类问题如此棘手的原因，因为你看起来正常。

Like, yes, you have a physical injury, like you had a stress fracture, but you also have a metabolic injury in which it's like, well, the stress fracture is healing, it's doing its thing, or you don't feel bad, you're in less pain, you're getting to move, but you have this thing that's still, like, it's hormonal, when it's metabolic, when it's this thing beneath the surface, and that is what's so hard about things like LEA and RED S is that you you appear normal.

你没有打石膏，也没有穿保护靴，更没用拐杖，看起来挺好的，但你的身体还是需要自我修复，我觉得这对很多人来说真的很难。

You you're not in a cast, you're not in a boot, you're not on crutches, like, you're otherwise, quote unquote, fine, but you your body still has to, like, mend itself, and I think that is really, really hard for people.

完全同意。

Totally.

我的意思是，这又回到了我们之前讨论过的关于适应负荷的那一集。

And I mean, it's like back to the episode where we're talking about allostatic load.

我觉得这非常重要，特别是对于那些可能像我一样，在开始和Matt合作之前的人。

I think this is really important, I think, for people who may be like because this is this is also me before I started working with Matt.

我当时总是纠结于每周的里程数或训练小时数。

I was like attached to either a mileage or an hours of things per week.

但实际上，我们是在变化的。

But really it's like we change.

我们还要考虑生活中真正造成压力的因素。

We also have what is actually contributing to the stress in your life.

所以，个体化地看待这个问题非常重要，而不是去比较，因为累积在你生活中的压力，可能你已经达到了当前里程或训练时间的极限，同时还要应对高强度的工作或为人父母的责任，你知道，所有这些其他因素。

And it's so important to actually look at it individually as opposed to like comparing because like the stress that adds up to your life, maybe it's actually like, you're pretty much at your capacity at the current mileage or the hours that you're able to put in with a high functioning job or being a parent, you know, all of these other factors.

这也是我学到的一点。

And this is also something that I learned.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得很多人都是这样，我们之后会详细聊聊，比如‘为什么这不可能发生在我身上’这种想法。

I feel like a lot of people are and we'll talk more about like, well, why couldn't like, why this could never be me type of thing.

但我确实觉得，我担心的不是我的精英运动员。

But I do feel like it's like, it's not my elite athletes that I worry about as much.

当然，我也一直担心他们。

I mean, I worry about them too all the time.

但真正让我担心的是那些既是父母又有高强度工作、忙得不可开交的运动员。

But it's like my athletes that are parents and are high like, have high powered jobs and are busy, busy people.

对我来说，他们才是风险最大的。

Like, that to me is like, they are at greatest risk

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为他们还在忙着出门。

Of this because they are still getting out the door.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

没有。

None.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想知道，你对生理学的理解是怎么改变的，或者说，你的生理学……你的理解，哇。

I guess I'm wondering how did your understanding of physiology change or I guess, how did your physio how did your understanding wow.

我能做到。

I can do this.

你对生理学的理解是如何改变你对自己恢复时间线的看法的，这个时间线一直在变化，可以说？

How did your understanding of physiology change how you thought about your own recovery timeline, which has been in flux, let's say?

对。

Yeah.

你知道，我觉得这就像我一直戴着科学和逻辑的帽子，而另一边是那个沮丧的运动员希拉里，她只想出去比赛，就想让我训练。

You know, I think as it's like a constant of like me putting on my science and like logical hat versus versus like the upset Hillary athlete who just wants to go out there and compete and just like, let me train.

我就像一只困在笼子里的野兽。

I'm like, I'd like a wild animal, like what, like in a cage.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以我觉得这有帮助，但我确实更需要依靠我身边的专家，比如马特，比如泰迪。

So I think it's helped, but I definitely have like needed to lean more on the experts in my corner like Matt, like Teddy.

还有我的营养师，以及我在湾区的新物理治疗师，麦迪·阿尔菲拉，她非常棒。

And now my dietitian and like my new PT out here in the bay, Maddie Alfiera, she's been amazing.

然后，是的。

And I yeah.

所以就是更多地依靠他们，因为我觉得当我受伤的时候，我会变得非常不耐烦，可能有点不太理性。

So it's like leaning more on them because I think it's like when I'm in the midst of an injury, it's like I can get very impatient and be maybe a little bit more like irrational.

所以基本上就是让别人对我说，希拉里，你是个科学家。

So it's like basically having other people be like, Hillary, you're a scientist.

不如你去拿起你的解剖学和生理学课本，然后告诉我你怎么想的。

How about you go pick up your like, you know, anatomy and physiology textbook and like, tell me what you think.

我就想，天哪，好吧，行吧。

And I'm like, gosh, okay, fine.

你说得对。

You're right.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我喜欢他们让你保持负责。

I love that they're holding you accountable.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

这就像是，我也不太清楚。

This is like, I don't know.

我喜欢他们这么聪明，但同时也觉得，拜托。

Like, I love it that they're so smart, but also just like, come on.

拜托，各位。

Come on, guys.

别这样对我。

Don't do this to me.

不。

No.

这很好。

It's good.

他们在提醒我，我也有脑子，应该用起来。

They're reminding me that I also have a brain, and I should use it.

确实。

True.

在受伤或者处理这种事情的时候，既要保持理性又要兼顾情感确实很难，而且这两种情绪互相打架是非常正常的。

It's very it it is hard to be rational while also being emotional, and it is very normal to have both those things at war with one another when you are in a injury cycle or dealing with something like this.

我想深入聊聊这次对话中最棘手的部分，就像我之前几次提到的，我们很可能有听众正在听我们聊这些，他们会想，我看起来不像，而且“看起来”真的很重要，我看起来不像那种跑者，所以这种事绝不会发生在我身上。

I guess I wanna dig into the stickiest part of this conversation, and it's the, like I've said this a few times now that we will likely have listeners who are in this conversation with us right now, and they are gonna think to themselves, I don't look like, and look like is really important, I don't look like x or y runner, so this could never happen to me.

这种想法有什么问题呢？

What are the issues with that statement?

嗯，各方面都有问题。

Well On all levels.

问题太多了。

There are so many levels of issue.

首先我要说的是，我觉得我也经历过那种阶段。

So the first thing I have to say is I think I've been there.

其次，我想提醒大家，任何人都无权评论女性的身材或体重。

And the second thing is that I just want to remind everyone that no one should ever comment on a woman's body or weight.

这不是关心，不是夸奖，也不是开玩笑，就是完全不应该说。

It's not as a concern, not as a compliment, not as a joke, just like full stop.

我们得停止评论这些。

We need to stop commenting on that.

我整个运动生涯都有人评论我的身材，好像这就能决定我站在起跑线上能不能赢似的。

I've had comments on my body my entire athletic career as if that was indicative of me starting on a start line of who was gonna win or who was not gonna win.

我们最不应该做的就是拿自己跟那种所谓的运动员形象标准去比较。

And that's the last thing that we should be comparing ourselves to this standard of what an athlete should quote unquote look like.

这不仅对心理有影响，我觉得它还带来一种非常不切实际的标准。

I mean, not only does it have like psychological impact, I just think it has a very unreal it brings about the same that's a very unrealistic standard.

实际上，数据和科学表明，我们并不能通过看一个人的外表来判断他们是否有LEA。

And actually the data and the science show that we can actually tell by looking at someone if they have LEA or not.

所以体重其实并不是判断一个人是否生病或健康的好指标。

And so weight is actually not a good indicator of if someone is quote unquote sick or not, healthy or not.

所以再深入一点说，关于Elliot和RED-S，关键还是能量可用性。

And so again, to kinda go in that double click on this, Elliot and RED S, it's about energy availability.

所以这是摄入与消耗。

So this is intake versus out outtake.

消耗。

Output.

摄入与消耗。

Intake versus output.

所以这不是体型或外表的问题。

And so it's not a body size or appearance.

所以基本上，这种情况可能发生在任何体重的人身上。

So it's basically that this can happen at any weight.

包括那些看起来“健康”、“健壮”、“强壮”的身体，就是人们常说的那些词，甚至体重更高的人也可能发生。

It's including bodies that look, quote unquote, healthy, fit, strong, like these words that, you know, that people use, but it can even happen at higher weight bodies.

所以体重不是诊断工具。

So weight is not a diagnostic tool.

我想特别强调这一点。

And I just want to overemphasize that.

而且我觉得这对那些可能正处于这种情况的人来说，实际上真的很重要。

And I just think it really matters practically for people who are currently maybe in this situation.

但我觉得最重要的是，基本上不要再用体重作为诊断工具了。

But I think the most important thing is basically over using this weight as a diagnostic tool.

这会让低能量可用性的运动员被忽视。

It lets low availability athletes go unnoticed.

然后这会给各种体型的运动员带来压力，让他们不得不解释或证明自己的身体，或者看起来要符合某种标准。

And then it puts pressure on athletes at every size to justify or explain their bodies or to look a certain way.

所以

So

对。

Yeah.

我们之前聊过这个。

We we've talked about this.

我们聊过BMI和体重是如何被用作真正的饮食失调和进食障碍的诊断标准的，而且有些BMI较高的人，即使他们确实有进食障碍，也可能因为保险原因无法进入治疗机构，因为既然他们不是那种所谓的“瘦”，怎么可能会有进食障碍呢。

We've talked about how like BMI and body weight have been used as like a criteria diagnostic criteria for for like true disordered eating and eating disorders as well, and there are people who have higher BMI who aren't like, who will not be given space in a treatment facility based on their insurance because how could they possibly having having an eating disorder given that they are not quote unquote skinny.

而且我觉得，这在LEA和RED S领域也非常普遍，就是说，这种情况可能发生在任何人身上，任何性别，任何运动，任何体型，而且很容易说这不可能发生在我身上，因为我不像某某那样。

And I think that, like, there this is very prevalent in, like, the LEA and RED S space as well, in which it's like, this can happen to anybody, to any gender, in any sport, at any size, and it's very easy to say this could never happen to me because I don't look like so and so.

而且这并不能很好地反映整体健康状况。

And that's not a good indicator of health broadly.

对。

Yep.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得还有一点很重要，就是我们俩都曾被批评或被人评论说可能是更强的运动员，我想在这里用个引号，通常是在评论说我们可能比一些竞争对手块头更大。

And it's also important, I think, to state too that, like, we are people who are while we have both been criticized or had comments made at being maybe stronger athletes, and I wanna use air quotes there too, normally in comment to being maybe bigger than some of our competitors.

但同时，我们比很多人的体型都要小得多。

But at the same time, like, we are also in much smaller bodies than so many people.

所以我们处在一个奇怪的位置，各种感受都有。

And so we're in this, like, weird space of, like, having all the feels.

而且我觉得这也是很重要的一点，我们在之前的节目中也谈到过，就是你可以独立于这一切，对自己有自己的感受。

And I think that's another important part too, which we've talked about in earlier episodes about being, like, you are allowed to feel away about yourself independent of all that as well.

我希望每个人都能达到一个对自己的身体感到非常自在的状态。

And I hope that everyone gets to a place where they can feel really good in their skin.

但不同体型的人也可能对自己现在的身体有很强烈的感受。

But people of all sizes can feel very strongly about the body that they're in as well.

对。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这很难。

It's hard.

我想，好吧。

I guess Okay.

我在想，为什么这种观念会一直存在，比如“哦，我一眼就能看出一个人是否健康”。

I'm wondering, like, why do you think this assumption like continues to exist of like, oh, I can tell by looking at someone if they're healthy or not.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这确实是对运动员外形的过度关注。

I mean, I do think it's like the over indexing on on that or what an athlete looks like.

我觉得这甚至可以追溯到环法自行车赛的讨论，比如Pauline，你知道，她试图积极地……

I mean, I think it even goes back to like the Tour de France conversation, with like Pauline like, you know, trying to actively kind of, you

你知道，有些科学依据支持这一点，比如每公斤瓦特数之类的。

know, there is some science that supports it, like, you know, Watts per kilo, blah, blah,

但这并不是一个完美的说法。

blah, But it's not a perfect story.

所以我觉得我们可能过于依赖那些基本上是正确的旧数据和科学。

So I think we maybe so over, like we rely heavily on, I think it's like science, like the old data that basically was true.

然后我们需要很长时间才能真正理解这些新数据，以及它们如何实际运作并融入其中。

And then we kind of, it takes us a long time to actually figure out this new data and how it actually works and fits into the equation.

所以我觉得这就是原因，因为改变人们的想法或者证明实际上没有一种尺寸适合所有人，需要时间。

So I think that's why, because it just it takes a while to adopt a new to like change people's minds or to like show that, hey, actually one size doesn't fit all.

而且你可以在很多不同的体重和每公斤瓦特数下拥有成功的职业生涯，等等。

And you can have a successful career at many different weights and like watts per kilo, blah, blah, blah.

但我觉得有一些基本的东西，比如工程师们会说，这有一个底线。

But I think there is some basic like, the engineers of the room would say that there is a bottom line of that.

但我也觉得这正在改变。

But I also think it's changing.

我甚至想到我在研究生时做的一些关于感知用力和疲劳的研究。

I mean, I even think about like some of my work that I was doing in grad school about perceived exertion and fatigue.

直到最近二十年，我们才发现疲劳还包含动机因素，不仅仅是生理上的。

And it's only been in the last twenty years where we've actually figured out that fatigue has a motivation factor to it, which is not just physiological.

以前我们认为肌肉停止工作是因为缺乏葡萄糖、钙、钠或氯。

Like before we thought we the muscles stopped working because you didn't have enough glucose or calcium or sodium or chloride.

不是的。

No.

还有动机的因素。

There's also a motivation.

比如这件事有多重要。

Like how important is it

对你来说呢？

for you?

完成这个目标、继续努力下去，对你来说有多值得？

How worthwhile is it for you to finish this goal and to keep on pushing harder?

这对疲劳来说非常重要。

Like that has a very important thing of fatigue.

我觉得我们是人类。

I think there's we're humans.

我们不仅仅是数字上的衡量。

We're more than just, you know, numbers on a scale.

所以

So

对。

Yeah.

房间里确实有工程师，但健康很难量化。

There are engineers in the room, but it doesn't it's hard to quantify health.

我觉得你可以是一个表现非常出色的人，同时也没有在做那些对身体极其不健康的事情。

I think it's you can be a very high performer and be and and not be doing things to your body that are inherently incredibly unhealthy.

而且我觉得我们今天多次用“健康”这个词来概括，但我想我们正在朝着正确的方向前进。

And I feel like we've used healthy in various catchalls today, but I think we're moving in the right direction.

我猜

I guess

为什么这似乎在高绩效者身上出现

why this seems to creep up on high performers

对。

Yeah.

特别是。

In particular.

而且我在想，为什么你认为这在像我们这样的运动，比如耐力运动中如此普遍，在这些运动中你追求这些大目标。

And I'm wondering why you think that might be so prevalent in in sports like ours, like endurance athletics, where you're pursuing these big goals.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这又回到了那个想法。

Again, I think it kinda goes back to that this this idea.

我是说，直到最近才这样。Corrine，你告诉我。

I mean, it hasn't even been until like I mean, Corrine, you tell me.

就像，哦，我觉得那个品牌可能已经占领了每个人的收件箱和社交媒体。

It's like oh, like, I know the feed has like probably taken over everyone's inbox and social media bandwidth.

我是说，天哪，他们甚至出现在环法自行车赛上。

I mean, heck, they were on the they're on the Tour de France.

我看到他们赞助了。

I saw them sponsoring it.

但是，你知道，碳水化合物为王。

But like, you know, the carbs are king.

这是相对较新的。

This is relatively new.

就像以前，不久之前，马拉松运动员或环法自行车赛车手在训练骑行中什么都不吃。

Like before, it was not too long ago where, the marathoners or the Tour de France riders were not consuming anything during training rides.

所以，运动过程中补充能量这个想法，其实是个相对较新的现象。

So this whole idea that fueling during exercise is actually a relatively new phenomenon.

所以，我觉得，把能量摄入不足正常化，还有那种老派思维，

And so again, I think it like normalizing under fueling and this whole like old guard way of thinking.

要打破这种思维，确实需要一段时间。

It like it takes a while to kind of break past that.

而且我觉得，尤其是在美国，有很多关于饮食文化、还有“赚取”你的能量或食物之类的说法，等等等等。

And this I think there's a lot of this thing about, especially in The United States about like diet culture and like earning your fuel or your food and blah blah blah.

我觉得，是的。

It's like, I think yeah.

我觉得这就是为什么它已经过时了。

I think that that's kind of why it's just over.

要改变人们的这种观念，真的很难。

It's it's hard to kinda get rid of or change people's minds when it comes to this.

而且，就像我们之前提到的，作为耐力运动员，运动并不会抑制食欲，所以很容易……

And again, like what we mentioned before is that I think it's really easy as an endurance athlete where exercise isn't appetite suppressant.

我们甚至可能无意中就陷入了这种补给不足的情况。

We can kind of maybe even get into this like of under fueling unintentionally.

我们可能会低估自己实际需要吃多少食物。

We might underestimate how much food we actually need to eat.

所以我觉得这就是为什么找个专家来帮忙很有用，这样就能……对。

So I think that's why it's helpful to kind of, you know, bring someone else in who's an expert so that Yeah.

能够执行并遵循一个计划。

Could execute and follow a plan.

对。

Yeah.

我想说的是，我们接下来会聊聊你的团队，你组建了这个团队，还邀请了营养师加入，我觉得这步棋走得非常好。

I guess kind of what signs I mean, we're gonna talk a little bit about your team, and you've built this team including bringing a dietitian out, which I think is such a good move.

而且我觉得这对很多可能处于同样处境的人来说都是非常明智的做法。

And I think it's such a good move for so many people out there who might find themselves in the same spot.

但你觉得，在那段混乱、压力很大的时期，你或者你的团队忽略了哪些迹象呢？

But what signs do you think you or your team missed during this kind of like chaotic, higher stress period of life?

对。

Yeah.

所以我觉得，就像我说的，我和Matt合作得很好，我听他的话，训练量减少了，而且我真的很享受。

So I think, like I said, I've been doing really well with Matt and like listening to him and, you know, doing less and like actually enjoying it.

但我觉得很多运动员都很擅长遵循计划，然后埋头执行，就像‘我们开始吧’那样。

But I think as many athletes were really good at following a plan and just like executing it and like head down, like let's do this.

我想我可能低估了，对吧？

Like I think I probably underestimated, right?

教练关系中有很多东西，尤其是像Matt现在住在芬兰。

There's a lot of the coaching relationship, especially if it's like, you know, Matt lives in Finland right now.

我确实会认真写下训练计划上的内容，和他沟通我的感受。

I do a good job at like writing down, you know, things on my training plan, communicating with him how I'm feeling.

但我觉得有时候我可能低估了这一点。

But I think sometimes like maybe I can underestimate that.

我想我当时没有，我们之前也谈过，在我旅行的那段时间，我感觉没有动力去训练。

I think I wasn't and we had talked about this like during the time when I was traveling and how I was feeling like not motivated to train.

对我来说，这真的是一个很大的信号，说明出了问题。

Like that's a really big indicator for me that something's wrong.

虽然我能和Matt沟通这件事，但我想我可能没有意识到我有多需要额外的恢复。

And although I was able to communicate that with Matt, I think maybe I didn't realize like how much I needed some extra recovery.

而且我觉得，当你在一个新地方旅行，想体验各种事情的时候，有时候很难做到这一点，但身边有人鼓励你去做更难的事情，那就好了。

And I think when I was like in sometimes that's hard to do when you're in a new place and like traveling and wanting to experience things, but then, you know, having those people around you that can encourage it, you know, for you to kind of do the harder thing.

所以我觉得那可能是因为缺乏意识，也缺乏执行力。

And so I think that's probably it was a little bit of lack of awareness, a lack of execution.

这就是Matt和我正在学习的东西，比如，好吧，如果Hilly要休息，我们得把它写进计划里。

And that's, you know, like something that Matt and I are learning is like, okay, well, if if Hilly's gonna rest, we need to have it like in the plant.

对。

Yeah.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

没有可选的休息。

There's no optional rest.

这必须

It needs to be

明确写进你的计划里。

written explicitly in your plan.

就像，科琳，科琳知道。

Like, Corrine Corrine knows.

全部大写。

All caps.

休息日。

Rest day.

而且他得对我严格一点。

And he needs to be like strict with me on it.

不然的话，我就会说，哦，但这是计划。

Cause if not, I'll be like, oh, but this is plan.

我有精力，等等。

I have energy blah

等等等等。

blah blah.

所以我觉得，这也是一种自我认知。

So like, I think that that it's also just like some self awareness.

我知道。

I know that.

但这也是很久以来的第一次。

But then also like this, like, this is the first time in a long time.

我基本上还有三四个其他工作。

Like, I have basically three, four other jobs.

Corrine，你对这个有了解。

Corrine, you know something about this.

关于有很多工作这件事。

Of having many jobs.

我们就是喜欢忙忙碌碌的。

Like we like to hustle.

我们喜欢做所有的事情。

We like doing all the things.

但是做那些事情，再加上一份全职工作。

But like doing that and then adding a full time job on top of it.

即使初衷是好的，而且我也很兴奋，想看看有了更多时间后，我在实验室里会表现如何。

Like even though maybe the intention was good and I was really excited to see with a little bit more time that I had to see like how I would do in the lab again.

结果发现我确实能大展拳脚，但是，其他方面就……

Turns out I could kick ass, but like, then other areas At

付出了什么代价。

what cost.

付出了什么代价，代价就是我的骨头。

At what cost, and the cost was to my bones.

是的。

Yeah.

我现在笑了。

And I'm laughing now.

所以你是

So you're

雌二醇，还有你的骨头。

an estradiol and your bones.

对。

Yeah.

我知道。

I know.

就像，我昨天或前天可没在笑这个。

It's like, I was not laughing about this yesterday or the day before.

对。

Yeah.

所以我觉得这都是学习，但我觉得所有这些都在帮助我成为一个更好的教练。

So I think it's all it's all learning, but it's like, I think all of this is like helping me to be in a better coach as well.

因为就像你说的，Corrine，你最担心的运动员可能不是那些精英选手，他们能有并优先安排恢复时间。

Because it's like you said, Corrine, it's like the athletes that you are most concerned about are maybe not your elites who can have and prioritize that recovery time.

是那些即使在训练之外也过着高压、快节奏生活的人，而成为那个接触点，就像在说，嘿，这没关系，不。

It's the people who have like the high stress, high octane life even outside of training and being that, you know, that touch point of being like, hey, this is okay to no.

我们需要把这种休息融入进来。

We need to incorporate this rest.

恢复、休息、安排休息日都是可以的，也许因为这样那样的原因，比别人跑得少一点也没关系。

It's okay to recover, to rest, to take these rest days to maybe like run a little bit less than other people because of, you know, X, Y, and Z.

数据也支持这一点。

Like the data supports it.

所以我觉得，是的，所有这些事情。

So I think, yeah, all of those things.

但幸运的是，我擅长寻求帮助。

But thankfully, I'm good at asking for help.

我比以前更愿意让别人进入我的圈子。

I'm better at letting people in to my corner than I have been.

所以，是的，尽管对我来说很难做到少做、踩刹车，但我觉得这一切都是值得的，你知道，是的。

So, yeah, I think it's all as hard as it is for me to beat, to do less and push, put on the brakes and, you know yeah.