标普500背后的神秘委员会

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This podcast is made possible by Invesco QQQ. The future isn't scary. Not realizing its potential, however, could be. Invesco QQQ. Let's rethink possibility.

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您可以通过Bloomberg News Now随时获取新闻。我是Amy Morris。

You can get the news whenever you want it with Bloomberg News Now. I'm Amy Morris.

我是Karen Moscow，在此向您介绍我们全新的点播新闻报告，直接推送到您的播客订阅源。Bloomberg News Now是一档时长五分钟的音频节目，涵盖当日头条新闻。每期节目全天多次更新，提供最新信息和数据，确保您随时掌握动态。

And I'm Karen Moscow here to tell you about our new on demand news report delivered right to your podcast feed. Bloomberg News Now is a short five minute audio report on the day's top stories. Episodes are published throughout the day with the latest information and data to keep you informed.

是的。市面上虽有类似产品，但它们通常全天重播电台新闻。我们不同。我们制作专属定制节目，仅在Bloomberg News Now独家放送。

Yes. There are other products like this from a variety but they usually rerun their radio newscasts throughout the day. That's not what we do. We create customized episodes that can only be heard on Bloomberg News Now.

我们不会等待一小时才发布突发新闻。一旦新闻爆发，几分钟内就会有一期新节目出现在您的播客订阅源中，让您始终获取最新故事和进展。

And we don't wait an hour to publish breaking news. When news breaks, we'll have an episode up on your podcast feed within minutes, so you're always getting the latest stories and developments.

获取来自彭博社全球3,000名记者和分析师的报道与背景分析。我们的足迹遍布世界各地。请在Apple、Spotify或您收听播客的任何平台收听Bloomberg News Now的最新内容。

Get the reporting and the context from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts. We're all over the world. Listen to the latest from Bloomberg News Now on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen.

欢迎收听《万亿》节目。我是Joel Weber。

Welcome to Trillions. I'm Joel Weber.

我是Eric Valciunas。

And I'm Eric Valciunas.

Eric，老兄，你最近怎么样？

Eric, how are you holding up, man?

相当不错。我最近出门稍微多了一些。我开始打网球了，这很棒。我认识了一些人，你知道，尽量多出去走动。而且我下周还要第一次去办公室。

Pretty good. I've been getting out a little more. I've got a tennis hobby going on and that's been great. I've met I've, you know, trying to get out and keep moving as much as possible. And I'm gonna go in the office actually next week for the first time.

我儿子刚开始上远程幼儿园。我得说这真是个矛盾的说法。

So my son just started remote kindergarten. And I will tell you that is an oxymoron.

是啊，这太疯狂了。没错。

Yeah. That's that's crazy. Yeah.

那么让我们来聊聊这期《万亿》节目吧。

So let let's talk about this episode of trillions.

是的。这一期我记不得有哪期比这更让我兴奋了，特别是因为最近的一些新闻。大家都知道标普500指数。它已经超越了摇滚明星的地位。它真的就像是整个体系围绕运转的太阳。

Yeah. This is I can't remember being more excited for an episode than this one, especially because of some recent news. So everybody knows the S and P 500. It is it's beyond a rock star. It's really kinda the sun that the whole thing revolves around.

我的意思是，它有11万亿美元的基准规模。人人都知道它。媒体不断引用它。它确实是市场上最大的存在。毫无疑问是被动投资界最具影响力的东西，甚至在整个投资界都是。

I mean, it's got $11,000,000,000,000 benchmark to it. Everybody knows it. The media quotes it constantly. It is the it is the biggest thing out there really. It definitely the most intellectual thing in the passive world, if not the active world.

每个主动型基金经理都试图超越它，每个人都以它为基准，等等。所以我们将有机会与基本上曾经负责运营标普500指数委员会的人交谈。这之所以如此有趣，是因为大多数指数都有严格的规则，标普也是如此。但与其他大多数指数不同，标普有一个由人类组成的委员会，可以推翻规则。最近，他们决定不纳入特斯拉——这是前20大股票——他们打算推迟加入，这正好表明人类在本质上控制着这个指数。我们将与担任该委员会主席约十五年的人交谈。

Every active manager is trying to beat it, everybody's benchmarked to it, etcetera. So we're gonna be able to speak to somebody who basically was the head of the quote committee that ran the S and P 500. And the reason this is so interesting is that most indexes have rigid rules and and so does the S and P. But unlike other indexes, most of them, the S and P has a committee of humans who can override the rules. And recently, they decided not to add Tesla, which is the top 20 biggest stock and it's it they're gonna delay adding it and it just shows you that humans are essentially in control of this index and we're gonna talk to the man who was the head of the committee for about fifteen years.

这个人就是大卫·布利策。他现在已经退休了。但正如你提到的，埃里克，他从1995年到2019年担任标普指数委员会主席，这段时间非常了不起。我的意思是，他基本上见证了一切，而我们有机会与他交谈。另外加入我们的还有凯瑟琳·格雷菲尔德，彭博新闻的ETF记者。

And that somebody is David Blitzer. He's now retired. But like you mentioned, Eric, he was the head of the S and P index committee from 1995 to 2019, which is an incredible stretch. I mean, he's basically seen it all, and we get to talk to him. Also joining us is gonna be Katherine Greifield, ETF reporter with Bloomberg News.

本期《万亿》：股市太阳系的太阳。大卫·布利策，感谢您参加《万亿》节目。

This time on Trillions, the sun of the stock solar system. David Blitzer, thanks for joining us on Trillions.

早上好。很荣幸。

Good morning. My pleasure.

所以我想谈谈房间里的大象，也就是Eric在开场白中提到的。标普500指数显然极其重要，这个指数是我们所有人持续关注和思考的庞然大物。最近有个事件是，指数可能准备纳入一些新公司，而特斯拉作为知名企业，虽然满足了所有条件却被排除在外。为什么没有被纳入呢？

So I wanna ask about the elephant in the room, which Eric mentioned in the intro. But S and P 500, obviously, hugely important. The index is just this this gigantic thing that we all think about and watch constantly. And there was this event recently where the the index was gonna potentially add some new names, and one of the big names, Tesla, was excluded even though it checked all the boxes. Why wasn't it included?

具体委员会最近几周为何这样做，我并不清楚。这让我回想起过去的历史等等。但首先回顾一下，其实有很多时候，一些大公司、热门公司或知名公司，在符合条件时并不会立即被纳入。实际上，可能99%的情况下，只有委员会知道哪些符合或不符合条件，因为指数变得庞大。由于大家都在讨论特斯拉，至少有上千人去网站下载了规则手册的方法论，核对了所有条件。天啊。

Well, exactly why the committee did something in the last few weeks, I don't know. It's I think back to past history and so on. But in first thinking back, there are plenty of times when there are big names or popular names, well known names that don't get added the moment they're eligible or something like that. In fact, probably 99% of the time, only the committee knows what is and is not eligible because indices have gotten big and because everybody talks about Tesco, at least a thousand people went to the website, downloaded the methodology of the rule book, and checked all the boxes. Oh my gosh.

大多数时候，你知道，有九个人坐在水街开会。其他人既不知道也不关心。但我认为真正的问题是，为什么这么着急？股票可以继续交易。如果你纳入一只股票，它会在几周内获得一点提振，然后提振就消失了。委员会的目标，至少在过去，因为我所说的都是过去的情况，委员会的目标是让指数真正成为市场的良好衡量标准。

Most of the time, you know, there are nine people sitting down at Water Street. Nobody else knows or cares. But I think the real question is, why the rush? Stocks can sit out there. If you add a stock, it gets a little bump for a few weeks and the bump goes away, and the committee's goal, at least in certainly in the past, because all all I'm saying is in the past, Committee's goal is to have an index that really is a great measure of the market.

市场上涨，指数就上涨。任何关于市场的统计数据，你都可以在指数上进行相同的计算，结果会非常接近。这就是目标。所以，纳入一家公司时，会审视指数和市场，然后问：我们是否与市场对齐得不够好？同时你也会观察市场上正在发生什么。

The market goes up, the index goes up. Any statistic about the market, you can do the same calculation on the index, and you'll be very close. That's the goal. So, adding a company is going to look at the index, look at the market and say, is this something that we're not lined up quite right with? And then you also look at what's happening in the market.

指数中可能发生的情况是，某家大公司可能在六周后被收购，我们宁愿等待那种情况，而不是现在就行动。所以并不着急。事实上，我记得有一条规则，或者过去至少有一条规则，说一只股票必须交易至少十二个月，你才能考虑纳入。它必须满足那条规则，但过去也有很多其他热门股票，我们知道，我们等待了。我们说，哦，现在还不行。

What's happening in the index is some big company can be acquired six weeks out, and we'd rather wait for that one than do it now kind of stuff. So there's no rush. In fact, there's a rule, I think, or there used to be a rule anyhow, it said that you had to have a stock trade for at least twelve months before you even thought about it. That has to meets that rule, but there are plenty of other hot stocks over the time when, you know, we waited. We said, oh, we can't do this yet.

那就是我们暂时按兵不动。

That's we just kinda sit tight.

我觉得这很合理。大多数人会同意这一点，但所有其他大盘股指数都包含了特斯拉。是否有一种担忧，即很多人认为标普500指数试图捕捉股市和最大的股票，而月复一月不纳入特斯拉，当一些竞争指数因为包含特斯拉而做到这一点时，你们却无法做到？

I think that's logical. Most people would agree to most of that, but all the other large cap indexes do have Tesla. And is there a fear that there's assumption that a lot of people just look at the S and P 500 as trying to capture the stock market and the biggest stocks generally? And by not having it month after month, you aren't able to do that when some of your competing indexes do do that because they do have Tesla.

当然，大多数人认为500指数就是500只最大的股票，但事实并非如此。很多人这么想。不。当谈到竞争时，我们是否比竞争对手做得更好或更差？这并不是基于单只股票来评判的。

Well, certainly, most people think the 500, the 500 biggest stocks, and it's not. And a lot of people think that. No. I don't when it comes to competing, are we doing better, doing worse than the competition? It's not been on a single stock basis.

一个经常被讨论的例子是标普600指数（一个小盘股指数，由同一个委员会管理）和罗素2000指数。它们之间的一个重大区别是，对于600指数，就像500指数一样，公司必须在纳入前实现盈利。如果之后开始亏损，它可能仍然留在指数中。罗素指数没有盈利要求，事实上，标普的分析师年复一年地发布报告，指出600指数由于盈利规则表现更好，无论是作为营销手段还是绝对正确的分析。

One case where it has come up a lot is between the S and P six hundred, which is one small cap, run by the same committee, and the Russell two thousand. And one of the big differences there is that for the 600, like the 500, company has to be profitable before it's put in. If you start losing money later on, it may stay in. Russell has no profitability rule, and in fact, S and P's analysts have cranked out reports year after year after year pointing out the 6 100 does better because of the profits rule, either as a marketing thing or as absolute correct analyst.

景顺QQQ是本期播客的骄傲赞助商，也是通往创新未来的骄傲赞助商。好奇这意味着什么？自1999年3月以来，景顺QQQ通过单一ETF为投资者提供了参与纳斯达克100指数的方式。我们谈论的是今天离不开的改变世界的突破：基因治疗、远程医疗、人工智能、电动汽车等等。

Invesco QQQ is a proud sponsor of this podcast and a proud sponsor of accessing the future of innovation. Curious what that means? Well, since March 1999, Invesco QQQ has given investors a way to tap into the Nasdaq 100 in a single ETF. We're talking world changing breakthroughs that we can't live without today. Gene therapy, telemedicine, AI, EVs, and more.

仍然好奇吗？明日的创新正等待着我们。让我们重新思考可能性。景顺QQQ。投资ETF存在风险，包括可能损失本金。

Still curious? Tomorrow's innovation awaits. Let's rethink possibility. Invesco QQQ. There are risks when investing in ETFs, including possible loss of money.

ETF的风险与股票类似。科技领域的投资相比多元化投资面临更大风险和更高波动性。纳斯达克100指数包含纳斯达克市场上100家最大的非金融公司。您无法直接投资于指数。投资前，请考虑基金的投资目标、风险、费用和开支。

ETF risks are similar to those of stocks. Investments in the tech sector are subject to greater risk and more volatility than more diversified investments. The Nasdaq one hundred index comprises the 100 largest nonfinancial companies on the Nasdaq. You can't invest directly into an index. Before investing, consider the fund's investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses.

请访问invesco.com获取包含此信息的招募说明书。投资前请仔细阅读。景顺分销公司。

Visit invesco.com for a prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully before investing. Invesco Distributors Inc.

那么，大卫，我想问一下，回顾你在委员会任职期间，是否还有其他案例，尽管某个名称按规则符合资格，但你们还是等了一段时间才将其纳入。我很好奇结果如何，引发的震动或反弹是否达到了我们看到的特斯拉未被纳入时的同等程度。

So, David, I wanna ask, you know, thinking back on your time on the committee, have there been other cases where maybe you waited a little bit, even though a name was eligible going by the rules, you waited to add it. And I'm curious how that worked out, whether the shock or backlash was to the same level that we've seen to Tesla not being included.

现在作为局外人来看，也许一个公平的比较是，关于特斯拉的议论数量是惊人的。我甚至接到了一些人的电话，他们知道我已经离开委员会一年半了，而且他们几乎从不和我谈论股票，他们问，为什么委员会不纳入它？它未来会怎样？等等。所以这方面的讨论非常多。

Now sitting on the outside, to maybe a fair comparison, the amount of chatter about Tesla is staggering. I now I've gotten calls from people who know I'm not haven't been on the committee for a year and a half and who barely never call me about stocks, and they say, why didn't they do it? Where is it going? And so on. So there's a huge amount of stuff.

你能想到的最接近的类比是微软。早在那个时候，微软大约在1986年上市。直到90年代初的某个时候，盖茨和艾伦共同持有大约67%的股份，也就是三分之二的股票，事实上在我任职委员会的大部分时间里，你知道，超过一半的股票被紧密控制，不符合资格，我们因为微软承受了巨大的压力，因为它当时可能和现在的特斯拉一样重要，事后，即使他们出售了一些股票，我们将其纳入指数，大家都觉得这事过去了，但我们仍然收到投诉。为什么你们要纳入它？等等。

The closest analog you can think about was Microsoft. And way back then, Microsoft went public in about 1986. And up until sometime in the early nineties, Gates and Allen together owned about 67% of this two thirds of the stock, and then in fact for most of the time I was on the committee, you know, had more than half the stock closely controlled was ineligible, and we got pounded a whole lot about Microsoft because it was as big then as Tesla is now maybe, and after the fact, we still got they sold off some stock, we put it in the index, everybody figured to forget it, and we still got complaints. Why did you add it? And so on.

所以还有其他一些大公司的情况，但是，你知道，我想有人已经学会耸耸肩说，你知道，等到下个月或类似的话。

So there have been other big ones, but, you know, I guess someone was used to learn to shrug and say, you know, wait till next month or something of that.

大卫，我能问一下关于委员会的问题吗？因为我认为有一个问题非常重要。委员会的第一条规则是不是不谈论委员会？

David, can I ask about the committee? Because there's a question that I think is really important. Is the first rule of the committee not to talk about the committee?

嗯，这方面确实有一个演变过程。我从1989年开始在委员会任职，然后在1995年成为主席，在我之前担任主席的那位同事继续留在委员会，他是个很棒的人，非常精明，比如，在不良指数方面可能比我当时做得更多。我去找了一位高管，我说，既然你们更换了我们，我应该做哪些埃利奥特没做的事？那时我是标普的首席经济学家。他们说，你看，就像你可以和市场和媒体谈论经济一样，去谈论指数吧。所以，我的任务就是走出去畅所欲言。

Well, there's really there's an evolution in this, and I was on the committee starting in 1989 and then became chairman in 1995, and the fellow who preceded me as chair stayed on the committee, and he's a great guy, very sharp, like, probably do more in bad indices than I did at that moment. And I went to one of the senior executives, and I said, now that you switched us, what am I supposed to do Elliott didn't do? And at that time, I was chief economist at S and P. And they said, look, you just like you get to talk about the economy in the markets and the press, talk about the index. So, my charge was to get out there and yak.

这个想法随着时间的推移发生了变化，并一直延续到2019年初，由于很多原因，比如律师的焦虑、监管以及其他一些事情，情况已经转变，当时的想法是指数委员会主席不应该像一个站在前台中心的发言人。现在，在95年到2000年之间，员工数量可能增长了约95%，想想看指数部门有25人，而当我离开时，大约有600人。看，组织变得更大了一些，代替一两个发言人，我们可能有52个发言人，所以指数部门的人可能会淹没在人群中。有一个具体的决定是不列出所有成员，因为早期，在90年代末的某个时候，《福布斯》杂志报道了我们。他们在一间装饰华丽的木质镶板餐厅里拍了一张照片。

That idea has changed over time and rolled forward to early twenty nineteen, and for a whole lot of reasons, people, anxiety of the lawyers and regulation and some other things, things had shifted, and the idea was that the chair of the index committee shouldn't be like a front and center spokesperson. Now, between ninety five and two thousand, the number of employees probably went up like 95, think about 25 people in index, and when I left, had about 600. See, the organization got a little bigger, and instead of one or two spokespeople, we probably had 52 spokespeople, so the index pair would have gotten lost in the crowd. There was a specific decision not to list all the members because early on, sometime in the late 90s, Forbes Magazine wrote us up. They had a picture taken in this very ornate wood paneled dining room.

我们过去称之为最高法院照片，因为我们看起来像大法官们的经典照片一样严肃，但那天报道一出，委员会每个人都收到了来自不同想加入公司的相同联邦快递包裹。所以那时，你知道，我们公开了一个名字，但其他人都可以匿名，除了我。所以我收到了所有的联邦快递包裹和电话。

We used to call it the Supreme Court picture because we looked as serious as the classic pictures of the justices, but the day that story ran, everybody on the committee got identical FedEx packages from various companies that wanted in. So at that point, you know, we we have one name out, but everybody else got to be anonymous except me. So I got all the FedEx packages and phone calls.

那真是太棒了。最高法院的比喻非常贴切，因为我下一个问题里其实也有这个隐喻。你们是怎么运作的？是有一个持续进行的聊天群吗？是有邮件链，还是你们实际见面开会？

That that's that's great. The supreme court visual is perfect because I actually had that metaphor in my next question. How does it work? Are you guys in a persistent chat? Is there an email chain, or do you physically meet?

那如果投票出现分歧呢？如果不是所有人都同意怎么办？这种情况怎么解决？

And what if there's a split vote? What if not everybody agrees? How does that get worked out?

显然，他们最近一两个月开的测试会议可能是在Zoom或其他平台上进行的。过去五、六、七年里，我们委员会会议使用了很多技术。还有其他委员会负责其他指数，所以我们有一个委员会覆盖欧洲的许多指数。那个委员会必然一半人在欧洲，一半在纽约，所以那显然是电子会议。但五百指数委员会，你知道，在新冠疫情到来之前，或者至少在我离开之前，是所有人都坐在同一个房间里开会。偶尔会有人因为出差什么的打电话参加，但那是很少见的。

Obviously, the testing meeting they had sometime in the last month or two was probably on Zoom or on some other thing, and we've been using for committee meetings, we've been using a lot of technology over the last five, six, seven years. There are other committees that cover other indices, so we had a committee that covered a lot of indices in Europe. That by necessity had half people in Europe and half in New York, so that was clearly electronic. But the five hundred committee, you know, up until COVID came along, or up and certainly up until I left, was everybody sat down in the same room. Every once in a while, somebody would be on the phone because they happen to be traveling or something, but that was was unusual and rare.

委员会有多少人？

And how many people are on it?

人数不定，我觉得从没少于6人，也从没超过10人，这纯粹是个实用性问题。你知道，如果有20个人，你永远没法把所有人都凑齐，如果少于6人，如果有人休假，人数就太少了。所以就在那个范围内，但没有固定的成员人数。

It varied between I don't think it was ever less than six, and I don't think it was ever more than 10, and it was just a question of practicality. You know, you had 20 people, you could never get everybody together, and you had less than six. If you lose somebody because they're on vacation, you're really down low, so it was in that range. But there was no no fixed number of members.

那当你们有不同意见时是怎么决定的？基本上是投票吗？

And how did you decide when you had different was it basically a vote?

通常是投票。大多数投票都是一致通过或接近一致等等。有个传统，可能我有点责任——如果有明显分歧，讨论没完没了时，我倾向于说'我不想绕桌发言'，这意味着每个人都有机会发表自己的看法。如果不想说什么，可以说'我过'或者'我同意上一个人的说法'之类的，但我们不希望出现第二天有人开始嚷嚷'你没听我说什么'的情况。

It was it's typically a vote. Most of the most of the votes were unanimous or very close to it and so on. There was sort of a tradition, which I may be somewhat responsible for. If there was clear disagreement and the discussion was going on and on, my tendency would be to say, I don't want to go around the table, which meant everybody had a chance to say their 2¢ worth. If you didn't want to say anything, you could say I passed or you could say I agree with the last guy or something like that, but we didn't want to have a situation where the next day somebody would start screaming, you didn't hear what I had to say.

所以这是个要求。绕桌发言通常最终不会一致，但会有明确多数等等。总之，有些人就是有强烈意见。他们知道自己不会赢，但他们喜欢记录下有反对票。

So that was a requirement. To go around the table, usually, would end up not unanimous with a clear majority and so on. Anyway, some people just had strong opinions. They knew they weren't gonna carry it, but they liked they'd like the to note to say there was a dissenting vote.

既然有一个委员会由人来做决定，这难道不基本上让标普500变成了一个主动型基金吗？我补充一下，DoubleLine的冈洛克最近也提出了这个观点。所以这并不是没人说过。

So the fact that there's a committee with people making decisions, doesn't that kind of basically make the S and P five hundred an active fund? And I'll add I'll add that Gunlock at DoubleLine recently made that point as as well. So it's not like it's not been said.

嗯，我最喜欢的评论是来自比尔·米勒，我认为他仍在业内。他曾为美盛管理一只大型基金，业绩出色。我的意思是，他大概在十三年中有十二年都跑赢了指数之类的。他曾有一次给股东写信说，主动管理成功的最佳证明就是标普500指数委员会。但我们并非试图成为那种意义上的主动管理者——委员会的目标并非追求顶尖业绩。

Well, the the comment of like that that I I like the best with the fellow I think he's still in the game. Bill Miller, who ran a big fund for Legg Mason with great performance. I mean, he outperformed the index, like, 12 out of thirteen years or something like that. So And he wrote to his shareholders one time that the best demonstration of the success of active management was the S and P five hundred committee. But we weren't trying to be active managers in the sense the committee is not the goal was not top performance.

目标是构建一个代表市场、符合市场统计规则等的指数。目的不是战胜市场或超越顶尖业绩者，评判一只股票的标准也不是‘我们是否认为这只股票在未来六个月内至少上涨X%’。评判股票首先是看它是否符合规模、流动性、盈利能力等规则；其次是审视指数与市场：指数在哪些方面与市场不够契合，这只股票能否改善这种契合度？此外还会关注未来动态，因为委员会会追踪已宣布的并购消息。

The goal was an index that represents the market and meets the same statistical rules as the market and that kind of thing. It's not to beat the market and not to beat top performer and judging a stock is not do we think the stock is going to go up by at least x percent over the next six months. Judging a stock is first does it meet the rules in terms of size and liquidity and profitability and this kind of stuff, and second, looking at the index and looking at the market. Where is the index not quite aligned to the market and will this stock improve that alignment? Plus, sort of looking at what's happening in the future because the committee tracks announced mergers.

所以，委员会能预知未来六个月内的多数重大企业行动，但这并非未卜先知，只是阅读新闻而已，然后我们会据此调整。

So, you know, the committee knows most of the big corporate actions six months into the future because the news is already out there, and it's not clairvoyance. It's just reading the newspaper, and we're gonna boom them.

委员会因在被动基金中采用人为管理而受到一些批评，这引出了‘没有真正被动’的观点——这是个不错的论点。除非按市值加权整个市场，否则确实没有完全被动的东西。话说回来，罗素指数最近进行了重构，Beyond Meat这只热门股被纳入了罗素价值指数。大家都疑惑这是怎么发生的？正是因为他们没有委员会，完全由规则决定。

The committee gets a little flack for being a human, you know, human management on a passive fund, and it brings up the nothing is passive, which is a decent argument. I mean, there really is nothing truly passive unless you market cap weight the whole entire market. That said, you know, with the Russell, they did a rebalance or a reconstitution recently and Beyond Meat which was this high flying stock got added to the Russell value. And everybody's like, how in the heck did that happen? And that's because they don't have a committee and the rules rule.

Beyond Meat当时没有足够数据使用自身市盈率，因此被归入包装食品类股的平均市盈率。换句话说，其所在行业决定了它的分类，这就是规则。他们无法更改，于是Beyond Meat按罗素标准成了价值股。这就是委员会存在的原因吗？是否最初就是为了避免规则导致明显不合理的情况而设立的？

And Beyond Meat was in didn't have enough data to use its own PE ratio, so it got put in to the packaged goods average PE ratio. In other words, the sector it was in dictated where it got put, and that's just the rule. And they could not change it and thus Beyond Meat was a value stock for by Russell standards. Is that why the committee exists? Is that why it was developed in the first place to have that ability to avoid the rules doing something where it really doesn't make any sense.

是的。我不完全了解委员会的历史。我知道在我之前的两位或三位主席，这大概能追溯到60年代末70年代初，但委员会如何演变到我这里，老实说并不清楚。这么说吧：我制定了第一版规则，但两年后才正式发布。

Yeah. I I don't know the full history of the committee. I mean, I know who the two or three couple prior chairman to me were, and I that would take me back to probably the very late sixties, early seventies, but how the committee came to me, honestly don't know. Let me put it this way. I wrote the first rules, and it was two years after we wrote them before they were published.

早期更多是传统惯例，而非成文规则。现在则变成了正式规则。但最初可能只是觉得需要一群人每月聚在一起，共同处理这些事务。

Early on, there was tradition. They were not rules. Now they're rules, and that kind of thing. But I think in the beginning, was just a sense that this was you had a bunch of people together or the same group every month or or whatever, and this is this is what you do.

我想聊聊您1995年开始担任委员会主席时的情况。当时被动投资的市场份额可能只有4%（仅供参考），真的非常小

And I wanna talk a little bit about you started in 1995 as the head of the committee. And in '95, don't quote me, but passive might had a 4% market share. I mean, it didn't really

您说得太客气了。

You're generous.

没错，确实微不足道。我正在读博格的最后一本书，他提到被动投资等了三十五年才真正壮大。您亲眼见证了它从极小的参与者成长为巨大力量。我想谈谈

Yeah. It was really tiny. I'm in the middle of reading Bogle's last book and he's talking about wait, he had to wait thirty five years really for passive to get big. You saw it go from really a tiny minority player to a gigantic force. And I just talk a

一点点

little bit

从指数角度来看，看到跟踪基金规模变得如此庞大，您当时是否感受到指数力量的增长？

about the from an index perspective, seeing the funds tracking you get so big and how did it could you feel the power of the index growing from your perspective during that time?

关于时间节点我有个观察：第一只美国ETF——道富的标普500ETF（大名鼎鼎的SPDR）诞生于1993年。指数化投资的发展离不开ETF，因为此前只有共同基金。比如你想买先锋500基金（即便在1993年规模也已很大），必须通过先锋公司购买，不能直接让经纪人操作——他们可能不会告诉你如何联系先锋（毕竟会损失业务），但理论上可以。而ETF的出现意味着全美任何经纪人都能帮你配置ETF，我认为这是变革的重要部分。

I did have one thing in terms of the dates, and that is the the first US ETF, the State Street's 500 ETF, the big spider, I think, was 1993. And part of the growth of indexing and so on is ETFs, and it's ETFs because before that it was all mutual funds, and you know if you wanted to buy the Vanguard five hundred fund, which was big even in 1993, you had to go to Vanguard. You couldn't call up your broker and say, I want to do this. He might tell you how to well, he probably wouldn't tell you how to go to Vanguard because it's going to lose the business, but he could. See, ETF suddenly meant that every broker in The United States could put you in an ETF, and I think that was part of the change.

另一个推动力是90年代末科技泡沫时期，曾连续数月出现标普500表现优于美国98%主动管理基金的现象，这简直不可思议。由于科技股暴涨且市值加权机制自带加速效应，这些股票每月涨幅最大且在指数中占比持续提升。这让指数投资彻底出圈——人们都在问：这个打败98%基金经理的东西到底是什么？

The other thing that drove it was in the late 90s in the tech boom, you had a period of of months where the 500 would outperform 98 of the actively managed mutual funds in United States, which should not happen. I mean, that's this is crazy. But what happened is the tech stock, as the tech bubble exploded, every month they were the biggest gains and each month they were bigger share of the index than last month because it's cap weighted and it it had an acceleration gimmick built into the cap weighted. And that's helped put put everybody on the map, put the index on the map because people would say, what's this thing that beat 98% of everybody? You know?

这完全不合常理！然后人们发现：天啊，这不过是个指数，还这么便宜。但你必须承认这是天才之作。结合他们的营销策略、产品定价，尤其是杰克·博格尔本人——他是我见过最厉害的宣传家，常年奔走疾呼'买指数基金并永远持有'。

It makes no sense. And then they say, my gosh. It's just an index, and it's cheap besides. But I you can't touch it without really complimenting or jackpot. Between the marketing they did and the pricing in their products, and most of all Jack Bogle himself, he was the most incredible pitchman, you know, I've ever met, and I mean that is a great compliment because he was out there all the time beating his drum and telling everybody, you know, buy an index fund and never sell it.

他对美国普通投资者的贡献可能冠绝现代金融史。整个指数化运动都该归功于他。指数基金确实在成长，从科技繁荣期开始，经历科技泡沫破灭后（当时人人认为指数基金完蛋了），再到2001-2002年衰退期始终表现稳健。随着媒体关注度提升（CNBC尤其热衷报道），不仅标普指数，MSCI、罗素等指数体系都快速扩张。

And he did more in the average investor in The United States than anybody probably in modern history or something of that sort. So, he deserved a huge amount of credit for the whole index thing. But it did grow and, you know, gradually, I think starting with the tech boom and then coming out of the tech bus when everybody thought, oh, you know, this is a terrible thing and nobody will buy an index fund ever again, and recession of 02/2001, 02/2002, the index did vary respectively, and it was off and running at that point, so on. There was clearly growing news attention, and CNBC loved to make excitement about it at the same time and that helped out, and it grew. And then indexing overall grew, not only S and P expanded, MSCI expanded, Russell, which was somewhat different corporate structure at that time began to expand very rapidly.

大卫，您提到90年代科技泡沫很有趣，因为当前情况非常相似——即便不考虑特斯拉，少数科技巨头仍在推动标普上涨。您是否认为两个时期存在可比性？这是否让您对市值加权指数产生疑虑？毕竟现在又是5-7只股票在拉动指数。

So David, it's interesting to hear you harken back to the tech boom in the 90s because the situation that you just described sounds pretty similar to what we're seeing today. You know, you have a handful of huge tech stocks just leading the S and P higher even without Tesla. I'm And curious whether, you know, you see parallels between that period and now and whether it gives you any pause about market cap weighted indexes because again, in this situation, it is just, you know, five to seven stocks powering this index higher.

关键区别在于：当年pets.com这类公司根本不盈利，而如今这些公司利润惊人，其增长和股价比二十年前的同类型企业更合理（虽然部分可能仍被高估，市盈率确实偏高）。历史上指数总会阶段性集中在某个板块——金融危机前就过度集中在金融股。当前市场确实存在脱节：少数超高市盈率股票拉动指数，其余股票表现平平。

Well, all right, one big difference between then and now is that pets.com certainly never made money. I mean now this time around the companies are hugely profitable and you know their growth and their stock prices make more sense now than their equivalents of twenty years ago do. Some of them may still be overpriced obviously, the B ratios are pretty rich. Well, looks back, the index goes to a period of one sector or another being hugely top heavy. Right before the financial crisis, it was completely top heavy in financial stocks and so I I think there is some disconnect internal in the market today, and it's what you mentioned, that you've got a handful of stocks with very high PE ratio, very high, dragging the index up, and the rest of it doesn't do too much.

指数中约50-60%的股票至今未恢复2020年2月高点。对比标普500等权重版本会发现：市值加权版正大幅领先。而从我们推出等权重指数到2002年间，等权重版本（本质是价值投资——今年这个词可不讨喜）曾长期表现更优。

I mean, I think it's something like 50 to 60% of the stocks in the index, you know, certainly haven't recovered from the, you know, to their February 2020 highs or something like that, and if you look, compare the 500 to the equal weighted version of the 500, the cat weighted version is rapidly and substantially outperforming now. There were a lot of periods from the time we started doing the equal weighted version to about 2002 when the equal weighted version did much better, and the equal weighted version is a player value, which is a dirty word this year.

接着埃里克的提问：如他开场所说，标普500如同我们围绕运行的太阳，影响力巨大。关于个股能否被纳入指数的猜测就会引发股价剧烈波动——本月甚至出现SEC调查标普员工涉嫌内幕交易的事件。

And then I also wanted to sort of piggyback off of Eric's last question. You know, like he said in the intro, the S and P five hundred is sort of the sun around which we all have evolved. And, it obviously is a very powerful force. The sort of speculation that a stock might get added or removed causes huge moves in the stock price. And just this month, we've seen the S and the SEC look into an S and P employee for potential insider trading.

他可能暗示了他的朋友，也许应该在再平衡之前买入一些期权。我很好奇，考虑到指数的影响力及其推动股市的能力，您如何看待这一趋势以及它的未来发展方向？

He might have tipped his friend off that, maybe he should put on some options ahead of the rebalance. I'm curious, you know, thinking about the power of indexes and their ability to move the stock market, what do you think of this trend and where do you see it going?

我想说两三点看法。关于指数的力量及其对股票的推动，如果一只股票被纳入标普500指数会怎样？我们的研究和其他研究一致表明，如果一只股票被宣布纳入指数，并在五天后正式加入（这五天的预宣布期），股价通常会上涨3%到4%，但在接下来的两三周内会回吐这些涨幅。所以一两个月后看，这些涨幅基本都消失了，没有形成持久的效应。

I guess, you know, two or three comments. In terms of the power of indices and so on and moving stocks, what happens if stock is added to the 500? What our studies and other studies consistently show is that you know if a stock gets announced and then five days later it actually goes in the index, would be five day pre announcement period. If the stock moved, it would tick up three or 4% over that five day period, and then it would give it back in the next two or three weeks. So if you looked at it a month, two months later, it had given back this game with no sort of permanent game or something like that.

如果你想利用这一点，这可能是合理的策略。我们或我一直担心的是这是否会持久地扭曲股市，但我从未看到任何证据。至于内幕信息方面，我想您暗示的是这一点，除了报纸上读到的当前事件，我对此一无所知。我无法评论，因为我真的没什么可说的。我要说的是，所有参与指数编制以及标普作为组织的人都非常清楚数据在保密未公布时的敏感性。

If you wanted to play that, were probably the logical thing to do. We were or I was always concerned about it was a lasting game, twisting the stock market somehow, and I never saw any evidence of that. And the other aspect in terms of the, you know, the inside information aspect, which I think is what you're hinting at, I don't know anything other than what I might have read in the newspaper about the current events. I pass on that because I don't have anything really to say about it. What I will say is that everybody involved in the indices and S and P as an organization are very aware of the sensitivity of the data when it was still confidential, when it hadn't been announced.

确实有程序来保护这一点，比如公告总是在市场收盘后发布，且发布时间固定，没有预先通知或暗示。所有相关实体工作人员都受合规规则和限制约束，我们任何人都不被允许持有单只股票。

There were procedures really to protect that in the sense that announcements were made only after the market closed. If they were going to be made, it was always the same time of day. There was no pre announcement or hit or anything like that. All the people involved in working in the entities were subject to compliance rules and restrictions. None of us were permitted to own single stocks.

事实上，我曾不得不清空一大批股票，其中一些我可能持有了十五到二十年，甚至是继承的。我妻子也得对她的投资组合做同样的事。他们给了我标普的股票，没让我卖掉，但除此之外有很多限制，经纪账户的所有对账单都复制发送给标普。你们都很熟悉这些规则，这在每家银行甚至可能每家新闻机构都是如此。

In fact, it was one point when I unloaded a whole bunch of the number of stocks, some of which I probably held for fifteen, twenty years and had inherited or something like that. My wife had to do the same thing with the portfolio. They gave me S and P stock. They didn't make me sell that, but other than that, there were restrictions and brokerage accounts all sent duplicate statements to S and P, and you guys are all familiar with those rules, that's true in every every bank and and probably every journalist organization.

我想快速评论一下对被动投资的许多抨击。其中之一是，一旦进入标普500指数就可以高枕无忧了。但我觉得您说得对，可能确实有提前买入的情况，但股票入选后也会大跌。比如通用电气和梅西百货在被抛售后就被踢出了指数。所以看这些案例，我觉得主动投资者其实掌控着局面。

And I just wanna comment real quick on a lot of the attacks on passive. One of them is, you know, once you get into the S and P 500, you can relax. But I think to your point, yeah, there might be some buying ahead of it, but stocks get killed after they're in there. Like GE and Macy's got sold off and then they got kicked out. So I think just looking at some of those cases, active players are in control.

如果说有什么的话，指数其实是在对此做出反应。

If anything, the index is is reacting to that.

Bloomberg Daybreak是您清晨第一时间获取资讯的最佳方式，直接送达您的播客订阅。大家好，我是Karen Moscow。

Bloomberg Daybreak is your best way to get informed first thing in the morning right in your podcast feed. Hi. I'm Karen Moscow.

我是Nathan Hager。每天清晨，我们早早起来为您制作最新一期的Bloomberg Daybreak美国版。这是一档每日15分钟的播客，为您带来全球新闻、政治和国际关系的最新动态。

And I'm Nathan Hager. Each morning, we're up early putting together the latest episode of Bloomberg Daybreak US edition. It's your daily fifteen minute podcast on the latest in global news, politics, and international relations.

Bloomberg Daybreak的特别之处在于我们新闻的即时性，每天东部时间早上6点前，最新资讯就会送达您的播客订阅。

What's special about Bloomberg Daybreak is the immediacy of the news we bring you each day in your podcast feed by 6AM eastern time.

这不是对昨日新闻的深度剖析，而是为您带来具有背景解读的最新报道。

This isn't a deep dive on yesterday's news. Instead, you get the latest stories with context.

这是其他新闻播客无法提供的价值。欢迎加入我们，聆听彭博全球3000名记者和分析师带来的精华内容，所有报道均以数据为支撑，且由深入事件核心的记者团队呈现。

And that's something you don't get from other news podcasts. So join us for the best from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world with reporting backed by data and journalists at the center of the stories we cover.

每天清晨收听彭博《Daybreak》美国版播客，获取重要新闻及其所需背景信息。

Listen to the Bloomberg Daybreak US edition podcast each morning for the stories that matter with the context you need.

在Apple、Spotify或任何您收听播客的平台找到我们。

Find us on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen.

最困难的事情之一就是判断何时该抛售股票、何时该剔除它。从委员会的角度看，或许主动型基金经理面临更大难题——他们会爱上某些股票。我认为委员会不会如此，但这确实非常棘手。比如，如果某支股票只是略微不符合入选标准，你可能还会保留它一段时间；或者判断规模是否过大等问题。有些情况则源于其他原因：当大公司指数进行分拆时，你需要评估分拆出的业务——如果它本身符合标普500成分股资格

One of the hardest things is to figure out how to when to get rid of a stock, when to drop it. From the committee's point of view, maybe I'm told that active managers have a bigger problem, they fall in love with stocks. I don't think committee falls in love with them, but it is very difficult. You know, if you just miss the rule to get in by a little, you're gonna keep it for a while, or how big is too big or something like that, and some of them come along for other reasons. You've got big company index doing a spin off, and you look at the spin off, what's gonna be spun, and you see that the spin, it's gonna be an s and p 500 company.

理论上母公司和分拆实体都应留在指数中。于是我们面临选择：要么宣布暂不纳入分拆实体，几个月后又改主意加入，但这会扰乱所有投资者的账户配置；要么在分拆发生时立即纳入，但指数公司数量会暂时超限

You know, the both the parent and spin should be in the index. So here's the choice. We announced that we're not adding the spin, and then we come back a couple months later and say, oh, we changed mine and put it in. But we turned everybody's account, which is not a nice thing to do, or we add the spin the same time the spin happens right away, goes in. But we don't want have five zero one companies in the index.

标普500不能有501家公司。这时我们就需要审视排名末位的15-20家企业，找出持续表现疲软的那家作为剔除对象。因此部分剔除决策相对简单，部分则极为困难。

That's not the name. So we've got to check somebody out. So at that point, we're going to go look at the bottom fifteen, twenty names and see who's consistently sinking, and there's our guy and so on. So some of the exits are sort of easy. Some of the exits are very difficult.

以通用电气(GE)为例，它曾是美国市值超越当今所有科技巨头的企业。但何时该决断说‘到此为止’呢？

You know, GE was once he was once bigger than any of the techs in The United States are than today's techs. And, you know, when do you say, uh-uh. That's

那么你们如何决策？

So how do you?

需要反复斟酌煎熬。我同时主持的道指委员会（2012年起由标普运营）决策更难——在标普500剔除某支股票时，市场可能早已遗忘其存在；但在道指，你根本没有这种‘低调剔除’的机会。

You sit there and you agonize over it. The, you know, the Dow the committee for the Dow, which I also chaired, which S and P now runs and has run since 2012, it's harder in the Dow. You know? Sometimes at 500, you throw out a stock, everybody forgot it was still around. Don't get that opportunity in the Dow.

你把它放进股票里。大家立刻就知道了。我的意思是，有些人能背出道指全部30只成分股的名字。没人能背出标普500全部500只成分股的名字。这一点我很确定。

You drop it in stock. Everybody knows it right away. I mean, some people can recite all 30 names in the Dow. Nobody can recite all 500 names in the 500. I'm sure of that.

说到并非真正被动这一点，道指采用的是价格加权法。我理解，这个指数是在格罗弗·克利夫兰总统时期设计的，当时并没有真正被视为投资工具。但DIA（道指ETF）规模高达1.52万亿美元。媒体还在不断引用它。

Speaking of things not really being passive, the Dow uses price weighting. You know, I get it. The index was designed, you know, back when Grover Cleveland was president and it wasn't really thought to be an investment tool. But the DIA has, I don't know, $1,520,000,000,000 in it. The media keeps quoting it.

但价格加权法实在太荒谬了。你就是单纯按股价来加权。所以苹果股票一分拆，就从最大的权重股跌到第17位左右。公司价值其实没有任何实质变化。我想问，当你管理道指时，你是否也觉得这个系统很...奇怪？

But price waiting just seems so absurd. You're just waiting it based on the price it is. So Apple has a stock split, goes from the biggest weighting by far to like number 17. Nothing really changed about the value. So I mean, did when you were running the Dow, did you sort of marvel at how, I don't know, weird that system is?

为什么媒体至今还对道指如此痴迷？

And why the media still is, like, obsessed with the DAO?

我想问大家一个问题。给凯蒂的。我也不知道答案。

I'm gonna ask you guys question. For Katie. I don't know either.

我没有好答案，所以别问我。好吧，

I don't have a good answer, so don't ask. Well,

我们讨论过很多其他版本，2012年接手时，我们详细探讨了各种改革方案。后来我们创建了基于道指的分红指数，应该是按股息收益率加权的。作为标普的分析师，这个指数至今仍然存在。实际上你们可能经常和他交流数据——他建立并管理着道指的市值加权版本（算是非公开的）。我们所有人，包括我自己，以前都会打电话说'能把那个数据发给我吗？'

we talked a lot about other versions, you know, when we took it on in 2012, we took a whole lot about all kinds of changes. It was now, I think, a dividend based index that's based on the Dow, which is probably weighted by dividend yield, I think, that we created. As an analyst at S and P, it was very much still there. In fact, you probably all talk to him all the time about data. He set up and runs the cap weighted version that the Dow is sort of under the table or something like that, and but all of us, including myself, you know, we used to call and say, you know, will you send me that data?

想用它做些研究。我们确实会用它进行各种分析实验。但我认为它不会改变。我知道另一个价格加权指数是日经225指数。东京肯定有很多人喜欢它，不过他们主要是喜欢东证指数——那个是半加权且方法正确的。

Want to do some stuff with it. We do play around with it and that kind of thing. But I I don't think it's gonna change. There's one other price weighted index I know of, and that's the DK two two five. And I'm sure there are a lot of people in Tokyo who love it, but mostly they love the topics, is half weighted and done right.

你真是指数专家。我想知道，你是否关注其他指数？比如QQQ和纳斯达克100指数？它们作为衡量美国公司的指标，如何与标普500竞争和互补？

You're such an index guy. And I'm wondering, do you look at other indices, QQQ, for example, and the and Nasdaq one hundred? And how how does that compete and complement S and P 500 as sort of a measure of American companies?

纳斯达克100基金或者说QQQ（严格来说QQQ是ETF）其实是一个行业导向型指数。我们将标普500分成11个板块并为每个板块编制指数。我想说的是，如果有人告诉我'我的投资组合里有QQQ'，我会说'你这并不算真正持有市场指数，而是持有其他可能不错的东西'。但如果持有标普500，我认为你就是真正持有了市场指数，这样就可以了。

The fund Nasdaq one hundred or or the I guess the queues more than even though the queues is the ETF to be technical, that's really a sector oriented index or a sector focused index. You know, we slice the 500 into 11 secondtors and do indices in all 11 and all this kind of stuff too, and the only thing I would say is that if somebody came to me and said I have a one in that portfolio, I'm in the queues, I'd say, you know, I don't think you really have the market. You've got something else that's got to be good. Now one in that portfolio of the 500, I think you have the market, you're done.

所以大卫，我想再快速问你一个关于自主指数的问题。ETF面临巨大的价格压力，我们看到一些自主指数ETF推出。虽然尚未真正起飞，但已有一些成功案例，比如GSLC。它规模巨大，我们几周前在《万亿》节目中报道过它。

So David, I want to quickly ask you one more question on self indexing. ETFs under huge price pressure, we've seen some of them come out. Hasn't really taken off yet, but we have seen some success stories such as GSLC. It's huge. We featured it on trillions a few weeks ago.

但除此之外，你知道，你仍然看到大型品牌指数提供商在ETF界占据主导地位，但我好奇从更长远的时间框架来看，你认为例如标普和MSCI最终会因自主指数而失去业务吗？

But other than that, you know, you're still seeing big brand index makers really dominating in the ETF world, but I'm curious on a longer term timeframe, do you think the S and P and the MSCI for example, could eventually lose business to self indexing?

嗯，我认为有两三个因素确实能在一定程度上限制和制约自主指数之类的发展。其一是这其中涉及大量的品牌管理。你知道，我很想说标普500指数如此出名和广泛使用是因为他们认为我们都是天才，或者类似的原因，但实际上是在支持品牌、管理品牌、保持品牌知名度，确保人们对品牌充满尊重和信任，这与其他任何产品都是一样的。所以，如果有人冒出来，比如Vanguard拥有惊人的品牌声誉，除了Vanguard 500指数外，你真的得深入挖掘才能发现谁在做指数或指数来源，他们拥有的品牌力量相当于标普、MSCI、富时或其他机构，但很少有公司能拥有那种认知度和群众基础的品牌。如果你是三个在车库里搞ETF的人，如果你想被注意到，你就得有个品牌。

Well, I think there are two or three things that show up that really can somewhat restrict and limit self indexing and that kind of thing. One thing is a huge amount of brand management that's in all of this. You know, I'd love to say that 500 is so out there and so widely because it, you know, they think we're all geniuses, we were all geniuses or something like that, but it's supporting the brand, managing the brand, keeping the brand out there, making sure people have a lot of respect and faith in the brand, and that's the same thing with any other product. So, if somebody comes along, Vanguard has an incredible brand name, and Vanguard has them other than the Vanguard 500, you've got to really dig to find out who's doing the index or where the index came from, and they have a brand that has the power equivalent to S and P or MSCI or FTSE or somebody else, but there are very few of those who've got a brand that that kind of recognition and that kind of crowd. If you're three guys in a garage or whatever it is putting together an ETF, you're going to have a brand if you want get noticed.

你称之为西区车库指数，那根本行不通。所以，品牌壁垒是第一个障碍。第二是规模经济。你知道，如果你要计算一个指数并跟踪，比如说里面的100只股票，那开销很大。想象一下，四个人跟踪股票，两个人运行计算机、硬件、软件等等，如果只分摊到一个指数上，你的运营费用可能会高达2%，那样你就无法在市场上竞争了。

You call it the Westside Garage Index and it's not going to fly. So right away, that's the brand barrier. The second thing is scale economies. You know, if you're going to calculate one index and track, let's say, 100 stocks in it, it's a lot of overhead. Know, or four guys tracking stocks and a couple guys running the computer and the hardware and software and everything, to amortize that across one index, your operating expense is going to be 2%, which you're out of the market at that point.

然而，标普，我不知道我们计算了多少指数，可能没人能算清楚，但那是一个六位数的数量。世界上每一个市场，美国想开展业务的每一个股票市场，我们都覆盖了。市值超过大约1000万到2000万美元的每一只股票，我们都在跟踪。所以规模经济是惊人的。你知道，我们每晚计算的指数比几乎任何人都多，因此规模经济显然非常巨大。

Yet, S and P, I don't know how many indices we calculate, don't think anybody can figure it out, but it was equally a 6 figure sum. Every market in the world, every equity market The US would like to do business in, were in. Every stock with a market cap over about $10.15, $20,000,000, we were tracking. So that scale economies were mind blowing. You know, we calculated more indices every night than almost anybody else, so obviously the scale economies were great.

所以，这意味着自主指数，除非你像Vanguard那样大，否则来找标普、MSCI或罗素说‘你能帮我运行这个吗？’会更便宜。而且有一个庞大的定制指数业务。第三个突出的原因，我认为定制指数业务实际上始于投资银行，他们挂钩某种区间指数，并在此基础上编写期权，然后出售期权。所以，这里有一个产品，你知道，如果指数超过六，你的期权就会支付。你会信任你友好的投资银行家告诉你结算日指数只有5.92吗？

So, that's going to mean that self indexing, unless you're as big as Vanguard or something like that, it's cheaper to come to S and P or MSCI or Russell and say, will you run this for me? And there's a big custom index business. The third reason that stands out is and it's really the custom index business, I think, really started with investment banks where they hook up some kind of range index and they write options on it, and they sell the options. And so here you got a product that, you know, if the index is more than six, your option pays off. Are you going to trust your friendly investment banker to tell you it was only 5.92 at the settlement date or not?

嗯，他们都很诚实，但我也不会信任他们。你会去找一个独立的机构，比如标普或我们其他人，说‘计算一下’，然后我们做了，它会说由标准计算，就这样。所以所有这些，我认为，限制了自主指数。你知道，像Vanguard这样的大公司仍然会对此感兴趣，而Vanguard、贝莱德、道富、可能还有景顺等少数几家公司在几年前在这个行业发起了一场价格战。他们压低了ETF费用，你知道，自主指数就不那么值得了，因为他们把所有人的费用都压低了。

Well, they're all honest, but I wouldn't trust them either. You go to an independent group like S and P or the rest of us and say, you know, calculate it, and so we do, and it'll say calculation by standard and that's it, you know. So all of that, I think, it limits self indexing. You know, the big guys like Vanguard are still going to be interested in it, and Vanguard, BlackRock, State Street, maybe Invesco, maybe a few others created a price war in this business a few years ago. Driving down ETF fees, you know, self indexing isn't worth that much because they've driven down everybody else's fees.

好的，下一个问题，这是我经常在《万亿》节目结束时问的，但今天我有个更好的股票代码。你最喜欢的ETF代码是什么？

Okay, next question, which is one that I often ask on trillions to close this out, but I have a better ticker today. But what is your favorite ETF ticker?

我最喜欢的ETF代码。可能是SPY，那个大蜘蛛是第一个。

My favorite ETF ticker. Probably the spy, the big spider is the first

当然，肯定是它。好了，现在我得代表我的朋友埃里克问一个新问题。埃里克怎么才能进入委员会？

Of course, it would be. Okay. So now now I have to ask a new kicker on behalf of my friend, Eric. How does Eric get on the committee?

首先，你必须记住，你得是标普全球的员工。你得在指数业务部门工作，也就是标普道琼斯指数公司，指数部门。但不仅如此，你可能还需要在这个岗位上工作了至少五、六、七、八年左右。具体细节我记不清了，但就像任何组织一样，有标准的职级，比如董事总经理、总监等等。而且有一个最低职级要求，

Well, first of you have to remember, you had to be employed by S and P Global. You had to work in the index business, you know, S and P Dow Jones Indices, the index division. But more than that, you probably have to have been doing it for at least five, six, seven, eight years or something of that sort, And I don't remember the exact details, but, you know, like any organization, there were standard titles. You know, managing director, director, and so on and so forth. And there was there was a minimum title that,

那可能还得再花上十年时间。

you know That probably takes another ten years.

要进入委员会，你必须达到那个职级。这是规定。

I've been in the committee, you had to have that title. That was a rule.

然后某天你来上班，打开储物柜，发现里面有张粉色小纸条等着你，那时你就知道自己入选了？

And then you come to work one day and open your open your locker and there's like a little pink slip waiting for you and that's when you know you're in?

不。是

No. It's

不像电影里那样，对吧？

It's not like the movies, is it?

你可能会接到主席的电话，然后会有一封邮件发送给整个指数计算组——姑且这么称呼。这些人一直在做这项工作，全都被限制在办公室的独立区域等等。然后邮件会通知所有人：乔·史密斯已加入标普500委员会，谢谢。

You you get you you you get probably, you get a phone call from the chairman, and then you and then an email that's sent around to the group that works for the index calculation group, for lack of a better term. People are doing this all the time and all of whom are restricted in a separate wing of the office and so on and so forth. Then email will go around all of them saying, Joe Smith has been added to the five hundred committee and thank you.

然后全办公室的人都开始巴结你。或者不。其实我觉得所有没入选标普500的3000家公司的CEO都会对你客气很多。是的。

And then everybody starts kissing your butter on the office. Or no. Actually, I would say all of the CEOs of the 3,000 stocks that aren't in the S and P five hundred start being a lot nicer to Yeah.

嗯，按规定除了主席名字外不能公布其他成员姓名。据我了解，现在甚至规定不能公布主席的名字。

Well, it there is a rule not to release the names other than the chairperson's name. And I think today, as I understand it, there's a rule that not even to release the name of the care.

真有意思。总之，我非常感谢你的分享。我们肯定...我不知道。我整天研究这些东西，却连一个成员都说不上来，真是奇怪。

It's fascinating. Anyway, I I I really appreciate the insight. We're definitely I don't know. I mean, the fact that I I live, eat, and breathe this stuff, and I couldn't tell you one member. It's just weird.

它只是最重要的

It's just the most important

它们很好。它们很成功。

They were good. They were successful.

它们确实如此。

They were.

David Blitzer，非常感谢您做客《Trillions》节目。

David Blitzer, thanks so much for joining us on Trillions.

这是我的荣幸。谢谢

My pleasure. Thanks

收听《Tricks》。下次再见，您可以在彭博终端、bloomberg.com、Apple Podcasts、Spotify以及任何您喜欢收听的地方找到我们。我们很乐意收到您的反馈。我们在Twitter上。我是Joel Weber节目。

for listening to Tricks. Until next time, you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, bloomberg.com, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever else you'd like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter. I'm at Joel Weber show.

他在Eric Balchunas，您可以在k Greifold找到Katie。本期《Trillions》由Magnus Hendriksen制作。Francesca Levy是彭博播客的负责人。再见。

He's at Eric Balchunas, and you can find Katie at k Greifold. This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendriksen. Francesca Levy is the head of Bloomberg Podcast. Bye.

您是否在寻找一个关于与金钱相关事物的新播客？

Are you looking for a new podcast about stuff related to money?

那么，今天就是您的幸运日。

Well, today's your lucky day.

我是Matt Levine。

I'm Matt Levine.

我是凯蒂·格雷菲尔德。

And I'm Katie Greifield.

我们是《Money Stuff》播客的主持人。每周五，我们都会深入探讨关于华尔街、金融以及其他内容的热门话题。

And we are the hosts of money stuff, the podcast. Every Friday, we dive into the top stories about Wall Street, finance, and other stuff.

我们玩得开心，有时也会搞怪，希望你能加入我们。

We have fun. We get weird, and we want you to join us.

你可以在Apple Podcasts、Spotify或任何你获取播客的地方收听《Money Stuff》。

You can listen to Money Stuff the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.