Age of Audio: The Inside Story of Podcasting

也许他们还给他写过信。

Maybe they've written him letters.

也许他们还坐过他的腿。

Maybe they've sat on his lap.

还有那个妮莎的电话。

And then there's the Nisha call.

下一期，《Serial》。

Next time on Serial.

就是这个时候，播客真正进入了主流视野。

This was the moment that podcasts really exploded into the mainstream.

公平地说，不只是《Serial》火了。

To be fair, like, it wasn't just Serial.

苹果在iPhone上推出了一款自带播客应用的操作系统，就在《Serial》上线前一两个月，纯属巧合。

Apple came out with a version of its OS on the iPhone that included a podcast app, And that happened a month or two before Serial dropped, just coincidentally.

他们早就把这东西准备好了。

They had this thing, like, right there.

就是播客本身。

It was, podcasts.

他们可以推送，然后就会直接显示最受欢迎的播客列表。

They could push it, then it would just list the top podcasts.

没错，现在任何人都能做播客了。

And sure, now anyone could have a podcast.

但要做一个像《美国生活》那样的叙事类节目，既不快也不容易。

But for a narrative show, something in the style of This American Life, it's not fast, and it's not easy.

说实话，这需要花钱，不是每个人都有这个条件。

Honestly, it takes money, and not everyone has that.

但有时候，你还是能找到愿意掏钱的人。

But sometimes, you could find folks willing to put up some cash.

广告之后，罗曼·马尔斯打造了播客界的独立厂牌，马克·马龙采访了总统，接着播客泡沫破裂了。

After the break, Roman Mars builds the indie record label of podcasts, Marc Maron interviews the president, and then the podcasting bubble bursts.

你知道我为什么喜欢夏天吗？

You know why I love summer?

我们之前在群聊里计划的那些事，终于要落地了，因为夏天有更多时间凑齐所有人。

All those plans we made finally make it out of the group chat and into the real world because there's more time to fit everyone in.

不管这个夏天你打算怎么过，和朋友们一起留下这些回忆，都是必不可少的。

Whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those memories with your crew is a must.

AT&T的iPhone 17 Pro，就能帮你轻松做到这一点。

And the iPhone 17 Pro from AT and T helps you do just that.

它的前置中心舞台摄像头会自动调整画面，把所有人都框进去。

Its center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies.

你根本不用转手机。

You don't even have to turn your phone.

再也不用担心照片裁掉一半人，或者求路人帮忙拍照了。

That means no awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it.

每次都能拍出完美的合照。

Just the perfect group selfie every time.

而且AT&T让你分享这些瞬间特别方便——照片不发出去，等于没拍过，对吧？

And AT and T makes sharing those moments with everyone easy because you have to share the picture or it didn't happen, right?

现在在AT&T，问问你如何用任何状况的iPhone抵扣换购iPhone 17 Pro。

Right now at AT and T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible iPhone trade in, any condition.

需抵扣iPhone 15 Plus或更高型号，不包括iPhone 16E和17E。

Requires trade in of iPhone 15 plus or higher, excluding the iPhone 16E and 17E.

需符合指定套餐条件。

Requires eligible plan.

条款和限制适用，可能随时调整。

Terms and restrictions apply, subject to change.

详情请访问att.com/iphone或前往AT&T门店咨询。

Visit att.com/iphone or visit an AT and T store for details.

当我刚开始做《二十千赫兹》时，我只想讲讲关于声音的故事。

When I started Twenty Thousand Hertz, all I really wanted to do was tell stories about sound.

但很快我就意识到，做一档节目等于从零创办一家公司，得做logo、建网站、开周边商店、搞营销，没完没了。

But pretty quickly, I realized that running a show meant starting a whole new business, which needed a logo, a website, a merch store, marketing, on and on.

如果你也在为这些事发愁，那你就需要Shopify。

If you could use help with any of the above, then you need Shopify.

Shopify 是全球数百万企业的电商平台，我们也是靠它卖出了那些超柔软的 Twenty Thousand Hertz T 恤。

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, and it's also how we started selling our super soft 20,000 Hertz T shirts.

它确实是搭建网店的好工具，但功能远不止这些。

It's a great way to build a web store, but it goes so far beyond that.

它就像一个内置的商业伙伴，从库存管理到国际物流，再到退换货处理， Shopify 都有顶尖的专业能力。

It's really like having a built in business partner because Shopify has world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns.

到了需要推广的时候，你还能直接在平台里发起邮件和社交媒体营销活动。

And when it's time to get the word out, you can run email and social media campaigns right from inside the platform.

今天就选择行业里最棒的商业伙伴 Shopify，开启你的事业，开始倾听吧。

Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify, and start hearing.

现在就去 shopify.com/20k 注册，每月仅需 1 美元体验。

Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/20k.

直接访问 shopify.com/20k 就行。

Just go to shopify.com/20k.

再提醒一次，是 shopify.com/20k。

Again, that's shopify.com/20k.

任何成功的生意，沟通都至关重要，因为一旦团队沟通混乱，客户马上就能感觉到。

For any successful business, good communication is crucial because if your team's communication is messy, customers feel it.

消息漏看、对话断掉、回复迟缓，这些都是最容易让生意失去动力的地方。

Missed messages, dropped threads, slow replies, it's one of the easiest ways to lose momentum.

所以今天这期节目由Quo赞助，Q-U-O拼写，这是一个专为让你不再漏掉任何来电而设计的商务沟通系统。

That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled q u o, the business communication system built so you never miss a call.

超过九万家商家，从个人经营者到正在扩张的团队，都在用Quo保持联系。

More than 90,000 businesses from solo operators to growing teams rely on Quo to stay connected.

有了Quo，整个团队可以用一个共享号码统一处理来电和短信。

With Quo, your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number.

这样一来，再也不用担心消息漏掉或者对话断了线。

That way, there are no more missed messages or forgotten conversations.

每个人都能看到完整的对话记录，回复更快，客户也觉得被重视了。

Everyone sees the thread, replies are faster, and customers feel taken care of.

注册时，你可以保留原有号码，几分钟内添加同事，并同步你正在用的任何客户管理系统。

When you sign up, you can keep your existing number, add teammates in minutes, and sync any CRM software you're already using.

随着业务发展，呼叫路由就能自动处理了。

Then you can let the call routing handle itself as your business grows.

这可关系到真金白银。

Money is on the line.

用 Quo 来接电话，永远保持专业第一印象。

Always say hello with Quo.

免费试用 Quo，访问 quo.com/20k 还能享受首六个月八折优惠。

Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com/20k.

就是 quo.com/20k。

That's quo.com/20k.

从《20000赫兹》开播起，对我影响最大的就是《99% 隐形》——在很多方面，正是《99% 隐形》为我铺平了道路，教我如何以独立播客的身份做下去，从叙事技巧到盈利和推广方式，全都受益于它。

From the beginning of 20,000 Hertz, my biggest influence was 99% Invisible because in many ways, ninety nine p I laid the groundwork for how to make it as an indie podcast from storytelling techniques to how you monetize and promote your show.

而这都要追溯到这档节目的创始人兼主持人罗曼·马尔斯。

And that goes back to the show's creator and host, Roman Mars.

这是《99% 隐形》。

This is 99% Invisible.

我是罗曼·马尔斯。

I'm Roman Mars.

我从2001年就开始在公共广播电台工作，做过所有类型的公共广播节目。

I had worked in public radio since 2001, and I worked on every type of public radio show that has ever existed.

公共广播的运营模式是，电台播出节目，然后通过募捐来支付制作费用。

The model for public radio funding is they put on the shows, they do pledge drives to pay for the shows.

在这个体系里，制片人往往是最后一个拿到钱的人。

The producers were usually the last people to get paid in that system.

这是艾弗里·特鲁弗曼，她是《99%隐形》最早的全职制片人之一。

Here's Avery Truffelman, one of ninety nine PI's first full time producers.

过去那个世界是这样的：我从小被灌输的观念是，你得在默默无闻中熬上好多年。

There's this old world, right, where expectation I was raised with was like, will toil in obscurity for years.

你拿不到一分钱，也没人把你当回事。

You will be paid nothing, and you won't matter.

也许几年后，如果你运气好，能谋到一份工作，你就能帮一位特别有意思的主持人做出一档节目。

Maybe in a few years, you will help a very interesting host make a show, if you're lucky to get a job at all.

这正是我对公共广播系统最反感的地方。

And that was really something that I hated about the public radio system.

罗曼设想了一种更好的模式，就像独立唱片公司，但适用于播客。

Roman imagined something better, something like an indie record label, but for podcasts.

在他构想中，创作者能掌控自己的内容，同时互相支持，一起扩大听众群。

In his vision, creators would retain control over what they make, but would support each other and grow their audiences together.

是啊。

Okay.

想想看，这得多美好。

Imagine how dreamy this would be.

对吧？

Right?

你最喜爱的乐队找你加入。

Like, one of your favorite bands asks you to join.

他们还说，顺便把其他你最爱的乐队也都拉进来，咱们一起开派对。

And they're like, oh, by the way, we're incorporating all your other favorite bands, and now you're all gonna party together.

2014年，独立制作人罗曼·马尔斯正式推出了‘电台星球’。

In 2014, independent producer Roman Mars officially launched Radiotopia.

来自PRX的电台星球，这里是《广播日记》。

From PRX's Radiotopia, this is Radio Diaries.

我是乔·里奇蒙。

I'm Joe Richmond.

你正在收听《歌曲解剖》，音乐人会拆解自己的作品，一步步讲述歌曲的创作故事。

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made.

我们是PRX旗下电台星球的正式成员，这里汇集了最出色的播客节目。

We're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collection of the best shows around.

从根本上说，电台星球的节目听起来特别有意思。

Fundamentally, the shows in Radiotopia, they're just fun to listen to.

但我认为，它们也代表了播客作为一种艺术形式的最高水准。

But I think they also represent the best of podcasting as an art form.

我一直相信，人生就是要相信自己，而拥有自主权，就是对自己最大的押注。

And that I I just believe that you should live life betting on yourself, and ownership is the ultimate betting on yourself.

罗曼早期招募的一位创作者是凯特琳·普雷斯特，她在2014年推出了《Heart》这个播客。

One of the creators Roman recruited early was Caitlin Prest, who launched the Heart podcast in 2014.

Radiotopia 给了我们两万五千美元作为启动资金。

Radiotopia gave us $25,000 as a starter bump.

就这么多。

That's it.

有团队要发工资的话，两万五千美元根本撑不了多久。

$25,000 doesn't go very far when you have a staff of people to pay.

但加入 Radiotopia 最大的吸引力并不是马上到手的钱。

But the biggest incentive for joining Radiotopia wasn't the immediate money.

而是能和其他节目在同一个网络里建立联系。

It was the connection with the other shows in their network.

因为和这个网络里的热门节目挂上钩，我们的听众翻了一倍。

Because of the association with the big shows on that network, our audience doubled.

这才让我们真正赚到了钱。

That allowed us to make money.

我做这一切，只是希望有一群人能拿到体面的报酬，用心做出大家真正在意的内容。

All I wanted for this whole thing was for a bunch of people to be paid well to do a good job creating something that people cared about.

我希望创作内容的人能先拿到钱，而不是那些只管运营电台的管理人员。

I wanted to make sure that the people who made the thing got paid first instead of the administrators who made the station run.

我做的每一件事，都是想修正我在公共广播行业里遇到的那些问题。

All these things were all about me trying to correct all these issues I had with my experience inside of public radio.

我真正想找的是那些想自己做主、自己掌控项目、保持独立的人。

I'm really looking for the people who want to run their own thing and own their own thing and remain independent.

我们就是一个由独立创作者组成的群体。

We are a collection of independents.

但其实，愿意这样做的人都越来越少了。

There's fewer of those people who actually even want that.

这正是我观察到的。

That's what I found.

越来越多的人，其实只是想要一份稳定的工作。

More and more people really want a job.

一个网络听起来很专业。

A network sounds very professional.

但对于很多独立制作人来说，你得明白，他们的制作可能非常 DIY。

But for a lot of indie producers, you have to understand, things might be pretty DIY.

比如喜剧演员马克·马龙就在车库里录音。

Recording in your garage, for example, like comedian Marc Maron.

以下是制片人布伦丹·麦克唐纳解释他和马克·马龙共同创办的节目 WTF 的由来。

Here's producer Brendan MacDonald explaining the origins of the show that he and Marc Maron created, which is called WTF.

马克是在 2009 年夏天来找我的，跟我说：嘿。

Marc came to me summer of two thousand nine and said to me, hey.

你对播客了解多少？

What do you know about podcasts?

他说这话的样子，就像他前一天才刚听说这玩意儿。

He said it like it was a thing that he had just heard the day before.

我也不清楚。

I don't know.

我根本不知道这是啥东西。

I don't even know what this is.

因为那时候播客太古怪了。

Like, because podcasting was so weird.

那会儿简直像西部荒野。

It was the wild west.

去他的规矩。

Fuck the game.

行吧。

Alright.

咱们开始吧。

Let's do this.

大家最近怎么样？

How are you folks?

是我，Marc。

It's me, Marc.

这是个自己搞起来的项目，一个住在洛杉矶郊区的喜剧演员，在自家车库里做的。

It's this DIY thing that this guy, this comedian out there in the outskirts of Los Angeles does from his garage.

那是2014年底的事。

It was toward the end of two thousand fourteen.

有一天，网站收到一封邮件，发件人是白宫官网的邮箱地址。

An email came in to the site that was from the White House, White House dot gov email address.

邮件里提议让副总统乔·拜登来上节目。

And the pitch was to have vice president Joe Biden on the show.

我当时根本没兴趣。

And I had no interest in it.

这是Marc。

That's Marc.

你知道，我们

You know, we

我们特意把政治话题放一边，不想做政治类节目。

had very carefully put politics aside so we were not a political show.

在我心里，请副总统来节目，这根本说不通，我们为什么要这么做？

And in in my mind, to bring the vice president on was like, why would we do that?

但现任总统就不一样了。

But a sitting president's a different thing.

他是美利坚合众国的总统。

He's a president of The United States.

所以，奥巴马那边倒是传出了点兴趣。

So, you know, there was some interest that came out of Obama's camp.

我们接到一个电话，说想上我们的节目。

We got this phone call saying, we'd like to do your show.

意思就是让总统亲自跑到车库里来。

So that means have the president go to the garage.

这太荒唐了。

Well, that's ridiculous.

这根本不可能发生。

That's not gonna happen.

但这件事真的发生了。

But it did happen.

当时看起来既疯狂透顶，又像是媒体领域的一个重大转折点。

At the time, it seemed both absolutely bonkers and like a major turning point in the medium.

没错。

Sure.

现在总统上个播客可能听起来没那么奇怪了，但你得明白，这可是 podcast 大选前将近十年的事。

Today, a president on a podcast might not sound so odd, but you have to understand, this was almost a decade before the podcast election.

我记得我问过总统，你紧张吗？

I remember asking the president, you know, are you nervous?

不紧张。

No.

我一点都不紧张。

I wasn't.

明白了。

Okay.

那挺好。

Well, that's good.

那可就麻烦了。

That makes That would be a problem.

那不会有问题。

It wouldn't be a problem.

要是总统对此感到紧张的话。

If the president was feeling stressed about it.

我当时正要去车库里。

I was coming to my garage.

去你车库里？

Coming to your garage.

但你

But you

如果《Serial》是叙事类播客的突破时刻，那这次就是访谈类播客的转折点。

If Serial was the breakout moment for narrative podcasts, then this was the breakout moment for interview podcasts.

总统认为，马克的听众群体值得去接触。

The president had decided that Marc's audience was worth talking to.

对其他公众人物来说，这表明参加一档热门播客的影响力，不亚于上《60分钟》或深夜脱口秀。

And for other public figures, it showed that appearing on a hit podcast could be just as valuable as going on sixty Minutes or a late night show.

那确实是个高光时刻，但之后，大家又立刻回到工作中。

It was a great moment, but after it, it was right back to work.

我们只是继续做着节目。

We just kept doing the show.

我们清楚自己的影响力在上升，同时也在推动整个播客行业的发展。

But we were aware of the impact on our profile, but also on podcasting.

像这样的关键时刻，帮助说服了广告商加大对播客的投入。

Watershed moments like these helped convince advertisers to invest in podcasting.

而广告主最看重的，是节目主持人亲自推荐产品。

And the thing that podcast sponsors want the most is a personal endorsement from the show's host.

这是播客广告代理公司Oxford Road的首席执行官丹·格兰杰。

Here's Dan Granger, CEO of the podcast ad agency Oxford Road.

以前在传统广播电台工作时，如果你想请个名人代言公司，哪怕只是本地电台的主持人，也得签个五十万美元的合同，付高额酬金，还得锁定六个月到一年。

When I worked in terrestrial radio, if you wanted a celebrity to endorse your company, even if they were a local radio host, you might sign a half $1,000,000 contract and pay a talent fee and be locked in for six to twelve months.

但做播客就不一样了，花一万美元买广告，就能让亚历克·鲍德温免费为你代言。

Podcasting meant you could get an endorsement from Alec Baldwin for free as part of your $10,000 ad buy.

这是因为亚历克·鲍德温自己做播客，你可以在他的节目里投广告。

That's because Alec Baldwin hosts his own podcast that you can buy ads on.

我是亚历克·鲍德温，你正在收听《事情是这样的》。

This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's The Thing.

随着听众数量增长，一位有眼光的公共广播记者抓住了这个时机，押注播客这个媒介。

As audiences grew, one enterprising public radio journalist made a well timed bet on the medium.

我是亚历克斯·布隆伯格。

I'm Alex Bloomberg.

很长一段时间里，我都在公共广播节目《此美国》做制作人，同时也是播客《金钱星球》的联合创始人。

And for a long time, I was a producer at the public radio show This American Life, and also the cocreator of a podcast called Planet Money.

我决定把自己过去采访企业经验用起来，自己创业。

I decided to take what I learned from reporting on other people's businesses and start my own business.

这是艾拉·格拉斯。

Here's Ira Glass.

他是个特别出色的制作人，而且就是从这儿起步的。

He's a great producer, and and he started here.

我们的节目就像一家精品店，

You know, our show runs like a boutique.

只做那些我们真正投入、特别热衷的内容。

Like, we only do stuff that we're, like, super invested in and very excited about.

而他的想法是，干脆做个大众市场的产品。

Whereas his idea was, like, let's make a mass market product.

Gimlet的理念就是，组建一支精通制作的团队，大量推出节目，其中一些能爆火，一些就直接砍掉，完全按电影公司的模式来运作。

The idea of Gimlet is, you know, basically create an army of people who know how to do this and then make a ton of shows, and then some of them will be hit, and some of them you'll kill, and just treat it the way a movie studio would.

2014年秋天，这家初创播客公司记录了Gimlet播客工作室的诞生过程。

In fall of twenty fourteen, the startup podcast documented the creation of the podcast studio, Gimlet.

一个月后，《Serial》就上线了。

A month later, Serial came out.

播客终于火了。

Podcasting had broken through.

后来，Gimlet推出了热门节目《Reply All》，由P.J. Vogt和Alex Goldman制作。

Then Gimlet launched the hit show Reply All, which was created by PJ Vogt and Alex Goldman.

来自Gimlet，这是《Reply All》。

From Gimlet, this is Reply All.

我是P.J. Vogt。

I'm PJ Vogt.

《Reply All》的成功帮助Gimlet资助了《Crimetown》《Heavyweight》《Science Versus》等更多节目。

Reply All's success helped Gimlet fund shows like Crimetown, Heavyweight, Science Versus, and more.

人们开始把这家工作室称为播客界的HBO。

People started calling the studio the HBO of podcasts.

投资者注意到了，一大批广播网络和制作公司纷纷涌现，好莱坞也找上门来。

Investors took notice, a bunch of networks and production companies sprung up, and Hollywood came calling.

2018年，iHeartMedia以五千五百万美元收购了Stuff Media旗下的“How Stuff Works”网络，这成了第一块倒下的多米诺骨牌。

When iHeartMedia spent $55,000,000 in 2018 to purchase Stuff Media, the How Stuff Works network, that was the first domino.

你开始看到一家又一家大型媒体公司收购这些新兴的播客工作室。

You started seeing deal after deal where large media companies started purchasing these podcast up starts.

短短一年内，Spotify 就收购了三家播客公司：Gimlet、Parcast 和 The Ringer，总花费接近十亿美元。

In the span of a year, Spotify bought three podcast networks, Gimlet, Parcast, and The Ringer for a combined price of about half $1,000,000,000.

2020 年，亚马逊以三亿美元收购了 Wondery Studios，SiriusXM 也花了三亿两千五百万美元买下了播客应用 Stitcher。

In 2020, Amazon bought Wondery Studios for 300,000,000, and SiriusXM bought the podcast app Stitcher for 325,000,000.

整个行业一下子热得不得了。

Things were really heating up.

可紧接着，一切突然停了下来。

Then it all came to a screeching halt.

伊利诺伊州和俄亥俄州今晚起关闭所有酒吧和餐厅。

Illinois and Ohio closing all bars and restaurants beginning tonight.

加利福尼亚州关停酒吧和酒庄，并要求 65 岁以上人群居家隔离。

California shutting down bars and wineries and asking those 65 and older to self isolate.

疫情刚爆发时，所有人都愣住了。

At first when the pandemic hit, everybody froze.

几个月过去后，他们突然一看收听数据，发现咦，我们的听众数量上去了。

A few months go by and all of a sudden they look at the ratings and they see, hey, wait a minute, we're up.

人们空闲时间多了，听播客的时间也变多了。

People have more time on their hands and they're listening more.

真的有数以百万计的普通人开始自己做节目。

And you literally had millions of amateurs creating their own shows.

人人都成了播客主。

Everybody became a podcaster.

于是这些大公司开始投入更多资金。

So these corporations started investing even more.

到2021年，播客的广告收入已经达到了大约15亿美元。

By 2021, the ad revenue made by podcasts was around $1,500,000,000.

有这么多钱涌入，就吸引了一大堆怪人跑进来瞎试各种东西。

The fact that there's money there is like having all these, like, weird people stepping into the space just trying stuff.

所以对我来说，看到这些钱，我其实觉得挺好玩的。

And so for me, like, I feel very amused by the money that's there.

有一批节目真的特别出色。

There's, like, a bunch that were, like, really amazing.

就像有些电视剧拍得特别棒一样。

Just like there's a bunch of TV shows that are really amazing.

但大部分节目也就一般，或者挺差的。

And then most of it's, like, okay or bad.

我觉得钱对播客来说是好事。

I think money is good for podcasting.

这意味着会有更多节目制作出来，更多声音被听到。

That means more shows will get made, more voices will be heard.

这是Wondery——全球最大播客网络之一——的创始人阿尔农·洛佩兹。

That's Arnon Lopez, founder of one of the biggest podcast networks, Wondery.

有了资金，通常会有更多听众和创作者加入进来。

From money, usually you get more listeners and more creators coming to anyone.

我觉得这绝对是好事。

I think that can only be a good thing.

这确实让行业里的每个人，包括平台和出版商，都面临着更大的压力。

It really raises the stakes for everybody in the industry, both the platforms as well as the publishers.

但现金注入也带来了一些副作用，尤其是对这些网络公司的员工来说，他们现在有了企业式的老板。

But there were side effects to this injection of cash, particularly for the employees at these networks who now had corporate bosses.

以下是其中的一些情况。

Here are a few of them.

当时有很多大钱在那些真正制作内容的人头顶上飞来飞去。

There was a lot of big money flying always flying over the heads of the people who actually made the stuff.

随着公司开始扩张，大家能感觉到，增长成了首要目标。

As things started to grow, like, as the company started to grow, it felt that that growth was prioritized.

在规模扩大时，

It's really hard to keep humanity at the

我觉得很难再把人本主义

center of it, I think, when you scale.

放在核心位置。所以你会慢慢察觉到这一点。

So you start to notice that.

你开始发现，他们承诺会帮你扩大观众群。

And you start to notice there's promises to help build audience.

他们还承诺会帮你推广节目。

There's promises to help sell your show.

也承诺提供营销资源。

There's promises for marketing resources.

你只能心里想，好吧。

You're just like, okay.

得不断达成下一个指标，再下一个指标。

Like, we gotta hit, like, the next metric and the next metric.

那些资金雄厚的大公司会说：嘿。

The big companies with the big dollars say, hey.

欢迎加入。

Welcome.

继续做你们现在做的事。

Keep doing what you're doing.

我们会给你背上一个喷气背包，直接把你送上月球。

We're gonna put a jet pack on your back and and blast you at the moon.

你就继续做你原来的事就行。

Just keep doing what you're doing.

我们会帮你把规模做大。

We're gonna grow it.

但后来这一切都没实现。

And then it never came.

人们开始发现播客热潮背后的问题，一些创作者也开始觉得，或许保持独立反而更好。

People were starting to see cracks in the podcasting boom, and some creators started thinking that it might have been better to stay independent.

这是罗曼·马尔斯的说法。

Here's Roman Mars.

这不仅仅是说我有

It's not just that I have

一个

an

一种崇尚独立的信念。

ethic that's about independence.

那些报价根本不够吸引人。

The offers aren't good enough for it to matter.

当一家有钱的公司对你感兴趣时，他们关心的不是你本人，也不是你做的内容。

When a company with money is interested in you, they're not interested in you, and they're not even interested in what you create.

他们只在乎你的听众，而你的听众只能卖一次。

They're interested in your audience, and you can sell that audience exactly once.

你还记得《Serial》吗？

You remember Serial?

他们是怎么让这个商业模式运转起来的？

How did they make that business model work?

有人跟我说，他们真的很想多元化发展。

People were saying to me, they really wanna diversify.

你们或许可以考虑搞订阅，或者像Patreon那样的模式。

You guys might wanna think about doing subscriptions or doing like a Patreon kind of thing.

我不清楚。

I don't know.

整个过程真的让我压力特别大。

Just like every part of it really stressed me out.

对很多小型播客来说，包括我们自己，听众的直接支持是真正的生命线。

For many small podcasts, including ours, direct listener support is a real lifeline.

但在2020年7月，Serial团队决定放弃独立，接受了《纽约时报》2500万美元的投资。

But in July 2020, the Serial team had decided to exchange independence for $25,000,000 from The New York Times.

我不用再操心Serial的事了，这真的很轻松。

I don't have to run Serial anymore, which is very nice.

做Serial的团队并不是唯一一个从中获利的。

And the folks who made Serial were not the only ones cashing in.

我是罗曼·马尔斯。

I'm Roman Mars.

我仍然是《99% Invisible》的创作者和主持人。

I'm still the creator and host of 99% Invisible.

我只是不再拥有《99%隐形》了。

It's just that I don't own 99% Invisible anymore.

没错。

That's right.

连《99%隐形》也都公司化了。

Even ninety nine percent Invisible went corporate.

2021年，罗马离开了Radiotopia，把节目卖给了Stitcher，而Stitcher属于SeriousXM。

In 2021, Roman left Radiotopia behind and sold his show to Stitcher, which is owned by SeriousXM.

这是我自2000年代初在芝加哥WBEZ工作以来，第一次真正成了公司的雇员。

So for the first time in my career since I worked at WBEZ in Chicago in the early two thousands, I'm like an employee of a company.

我的想法其实没怎么变过。

My thinking hasn't evolved all that much.

我知道这听起来可能有点意外。

I know that might sound surprising.

我所看重的独立，就是能按自己的方式做想做的事。

The part of independence that I value is the ability to do what you want, how you want to do it.

但我依然相信这一切。

And I still believe in all of it.

只是对我来说，作为一个只做一档叫《99% Invisible》节目的人，我已经厌倦了琢磨怎么在播客里赚钱。

It just so happened that for me personally, as a person who ran a single show called 99% Invisible, I was done with figuring out how to make money in podcasting.

这再也带不来任何快乐了。

It didn't give me joy anymore.

这里是Radiotopia节目《Song Exploder》的主持人里希克什·希拉瓦。

Here's Rishikesh Hirway, host of the Radiotopia show, Song Exploder.

我觉得最难的一点是，Roman 是带我进入 Radiotopia 的人。

I think the thing that was hardest about that was that Roman was the person who had brought me into to Radiotopia.

事实上，我们大多数人之所以在这里，都是因为和他有个人层面的联系。

And the fact was most of us were there because of a personal relationship that we had with him.

而他对这个播客网络理念的热情，一直以来都特别关键。

And I think his enthusiasm for the idea of what the network was was such an important part.

当时感觉就像车轮的中心要消失了，这让人很难受，也可能带来不稳定。

It felt like, the hub of the wheel was gonna be going away, but that felt hard and, you know, maybe potentially destabilizing.

但整个行业即将迎来转折。

But things were about to change for the entire industry.

很快，那些大公司就明白了独立播客创作者早就知道的事。

Pretty soon, these big corporations figured out what indie podcasters had always known.

做出一个爆款播客真的很难。

Making a hit podcast is really hard.

这些节目并没有像他们预期的那样增长。

These shows weren't growing the way they expected them to.

等他们一算账，才发现投资根本没回报。

And once they crunched the numbers, they realized they weren't seeing a return on their investments.

一瞬间，这个蓬勃发展的商机戛然而止。

And suddenly, this thriving business opportunity came to an abrupt end.

就像有人突然在俱乐部打开了顶灯。

It was like someone switched on the overhead lights at the club.

派对结束了。

The party was over.

接下来发生的就是大规模裁员。

What came next were mass layoffs.

Spotify裁掉了超过400名播客员工，并解散了Gimlet网络，将其并入Spotify Studios。

Spotify laid off over 400 podcast employees and dissolved the Gimlet network, absorbing it into Spotify Studios.

Serial XM裁掉了475名员工，并关闭了Stitcher应用。

Serial XM laid off 475 workers and shut down the Stitcher app.

亚马逊削减了Wondery团队110个职位，并将他们的叙事类节目整合进Audible。

Amazon cut 110 jobs from its Wondery network and folded their narrative shows into Audible.

NPR也裁掉了10%的员工，理由是广告和企业赞助大幅下滑。

And NPR cut 10% of its staff, citing a slowdown in advertising and corporate sponsorship.

在播客曾被视为最热门的新风口、投资者豪掷数亿美元之后，清醒过来的代价相当沉重。

After years of podcasting being the hottest new thing, investors sinking hundreds of millions of dollars into it, sobering up was painful.

自那以后，大部分广告预算都流向了由名人主持的闲聊类播客，因为这类节目制作成本低，而且自带一定粉丝基础。

In the years since, most of the ad money has been funneled into chitchat podcasts hosted by celebrities because they're cheap to produce, and they come with some degree of built in audience.

大家好。

Hey, everyone.

我是艾米·波勒，我推出了一档新播客，叫《好聊天》。

I'm Amy Poehler, and I'm launching a new podcast called Good Hang.

这是我的新播客，《康南·奥布莱恩需要朋友》。

And, this is my new podcast, Conan O'Brien needs a friend.

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

欢迎收听奥普拉播客。

Welcome to the Oprah podcast.

很高兴能和大家在一起。

I'm so glad to be here with you.

现在，这类节目都配上视频了。

And these days, shows like these all include video.

再来看看丹·格兰杰怎么说。

Here's Dan Granger again.

如今圈子里人人都在谈视频。

All anybody talks about in podcasting today is video.

现在到处都是YouTube，YouTube，YouTube。

It's YouTube, YouTube, YouTube.

以前那种长篇音频内容、靠想象力构建的听觉体验，现在完全被边缘化了。

And things that you used to see, long form audio driven content, the theater of the mind, that's been totally deprioritized.

像过去那样的深度调查节目，现在很难拿到资金了，因为投资人只关心能不能在屏幕上看到东西。

Big investigative pieces like they used to do, those aren't getting the same capital that they were because everybody just wants to see on a screen if they're financing the deal.

下面是独立播客制作人约翰·德洛尔对这些变化的描述。

Here's indie podcaster John Dellor describing these changes.

说是泡沫破裂了，或者类似的说法吧。

Correction, the bubble bursting, whatever.

一直以来，变现都是个难题，大节目总是更容易吸引关注和广告收入。

There's always been problems of how to monetize, and there's always been the issue of, like, the big show gets the attention, gets the ad sales.

新晋节目要想争取资源，就得拼命争取。

The younger show has to fight to get resources.

这种问题，在播客大火之前就一直存在了。

And so that predates big podcast, that problem.

你知道吧。

You know?

所以你不能把这些问题全都归咎于我所说的‘播客工业体系’。

So you can't put all of that at the feet of the the podcast industrial complex, as I call it.

但当创意方向上的分歧再加上这些因素，事情就会变得特别糟糕。

But then when you have a misalignment of creative vision on top of that, that's when things start to feel really, really not good.

发展得太快了，一下子规模就撑大了。

It just got too big too fast.

那这对现在想在播客领域闯出名堂的人意味着什么？

So what does this all mean for folks trying to make it in podcasting today?

这么多播客节目，到底什么才算成功？

With so many podcasts, what is success?

在为《音频时代》收集了这么多素材后，导演肖恩对播客的现状和未来有了独特的见解。

After collecting all of this material for Age of Audio, Sean, the documentary's director, has a unique insight into the present and possible future of podcasting.

当然，作为一个做了将近十年播客的人，我也有自己的想法和强烈感受。

And, of course, as someone who's been making this podcast for nearly ten years, I have my own thoughts and strong feelings about it.

我和肖恩的对话深入探讨了我们对播客行业的期待、担忧和预测，以及这一切对《20,000 Hertz》意味着什么。

In my conversation with Sean, we dove deep into our hopes, fears, and predictions for the podcast industry and what all of this means for 20,000 Hertz.

接下来就是播客的历史，这些内容马上为你呈现。

That's all coming up next history of podcasting.

完整版时长超过九十分钟，很多精彩的故事线我们没来得及展开，比如旁白者罗纳德·杨 junior 以及他的播客《Wait For It》的个人经历。

The full version is over ninety minutes long, so there are lots of great story threads that we didn't have time for, including the personal journey of the narrator, Ronald Young Junior, and his podcast, Wait For It.

这部影片目前还没广泛上映。

The film isn't widely available just yet.

想了解最新动态，请访问 aoamovie.com，或者在 Instagram 和 TikTok 上关注 aoamovie。

So for updates, visit aoamovie.com or follow aoamovie on Instagram or TikTok.

所有链接都在节目笔记里。

All of the links are in the show notes.

《20,000 Hertz》由我的音频制作公司 Defacto Sound 制作。

20,000 Hertz is produced by my sound agency, Defacto Sound.

想听更多内容，请访问 defactosound.com，或者在 Instagram 关注 Defacto Sound。

Hear more at defactosound.com or by following Defacto Sound on Instagram.

本集的音频改编由尼古拉斯·哈特尔完成。

This episode was adapted for audio by Nicholas Harter.

以及凯西·埃默林。

And Casey Emerling.

感谢格蕾丝·伊斯特提供的协助。

With help from Grace East.

音频设计与混音由乔尔·博伊德负责。

It was sound designed and mixed by Joel Boider.

非常感谢肖恩·迈克尔·科隆与我们分享这些内容。

Thanks so much to Sean Michael Colon for sharing this material with us.

你可以在Instagram上关注肖恩，用户名是他的公司名：Open Ended Films。

Follow Sean on Instagram under the name of his company, Open Ended Films.

我的视频频道并不是两个人坐在桌旁对着麦克风聊天。

Now my video channel does not involve two people at a table talking into microphones.

相反，我会深入音频专业人士的工作现场，比如去深夜秀的后台，或者走进百老汇音乐剧的乐池。

Instead, I go behind the scenes with audio professionals in their creative spaces, like going backstage at late night shows or going into the pit at a Broadway musical.

还有体育、音乐等等内容。

There's also sports, music, and more.

想看全部这些内容，你可以在YouTube、Instagram和TikTok上搜索Dallas Taylor dot m p three找到我。

To see all of that, you can find me on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok under the name Dallas Taylor dot m p three.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

正如你在这期节目中听到的，像我们这样高度制作的独立播客，筹款真的很难。

As you heard in this episode, funding a highly produced indie podcast like ours is really difficult.

你可能觉得我们会来者不拒，但其实我们拒绝了不少想在《20000赫兹》上打广告的品牌，因为我希望我们推荐的每一样东西，都是我自己真心相信且觉得有价值的。

So you might assume that we'll take any ad dollar we get, but we actually turned down plenty of brands who wanna advertise on 20,000 Hertz because I wanna make sure that everything we promote is something I actually believe in and find valuable.

如果你觉得这些推荐对你有帮助，别忘了使用我们的专属链接和优惠码注册。

And if these things sound useful to you, then don't forget to use our unique link and promo codes when signing up.

用Shopify开启你的新生意，每月仅需1美元试用，访问shopify.com/20k。

With that in mind, kick off your new business with a $1 per month trial of Shopify at shopify.com/20k.

用Quo优化你的业务沟通，前六个月享受八折优惠，访问quo.com/20k。

Streamline your business communications with Quo and get 20% off your first six months at quo.com/20k.

想用旧iPhone换购iPhone 17 Pro？只要符合条件，就能0元入手，上att.com/iphone或前往AT&T门店了解详情。

Find out how you can get the iPhone 17 Pro for $0 with an eligible iPhone trade in at att.com/iphone or at an AT and T store.

如果你愿意直接支持我们，可以前往20k.org/plus订阅我们的高级播客频道。

If you'd like to support us directly, you can sign up for our premium feed at 20k.org/plus.

订阅后，你就能免费收听全部往期和未来剧集，而且比普通版提前三天更新，全程无广告。

Once you do, you'll get the entire catalog past, present, and future ad free and three days early.

别忘了在5月31日前提交你的听众故事，有机会参与我们的评选活动。

And finally, don't forget to submit your listener story by May 31 to be considered for the competition.

具体规则和投稿方式请访问20k.org/2020six。

You can read the rules and submit your sound story at 20k.org/2020six.

以上所有链接都在节目简介里。

All of these links are in the show notes.