鲁佩尔特的秘密录音：巴特尔研究所隐藏的UFO关联 / 鹳鸟计划究竟是什么？

这是你从未听说过的最重要的公司。

The most important company that you never heard of.

而且，最让我震惊的是，它竟然是个非营利组织。

And, also, which really struck me is it said it's a nonprofit organization.

这

That

挺奇怪的。

It's pretty odd.

然而，他们却管理或共同管理着美国能源部和国土安全部的多个国家实验室。

And yet they manage or comanage multiple US Department of Energy and Department of Homeland Security National Labs.

是的。

Yes.

他们监管着成千上万的实验室人员，以及像太平洋西北国家实验室和橡树岭国家实验室这样的设施，这些是通过合资企业来管理的。

They oversee tens of thousands of additional lab personnel, facilities like Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, which they manage through joint ventures.

顺便提一下，他们似乎还帮助开发了汽车巡航控制和早期的数字光盘录制技术。

And on a side note, apparently, they also help develop automotive cruise control and early digital optical disc recording.

我知道。

I know.

他们涉足的领域可多了，对。

They have their hands in Yeah.

太多了。

So many things.

而且，说实话，我以前从来没听说过这个组织，挺不好意思的。

And, like, I'm embarrassed to say I had never heard of this, organization before.

但是

But

那是……

That's...

这些都是低调的成就，就像隐藏的成就一样。

Those are all stealth, like, stealth achievements.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

现在我们还在……

Now we're also...

我们稍后会再回到他们的话题，因为相信我，后面还有更劲爆的内容。

We're gonna come back to them because trust me, it gets juicier than that.

不过，我确实想提一下爱德华·J·鲁佩尔特上尉。

But, definitely, I wanted to mention something about, captain, Edward J.

鲁佩尔特。

Ruppelt.

正如我之前在节目里多次提到的，他的书《关于不明飞行物的报告》是我读过的第一本关于UFO的书，它完全激发了我的想象力。

And as I've mentioned on the show, previously, probably many times, is his book, the report on unidentified flying objects, it was the first book I ever read about UFOs, and it totally captured my imagination.

这本书写得非常好，而且我觉得它至今仍然很有参考价值。

An extremely well written book, and I believe the the book is still relevant today.

我经常跟那些刚开始了解UFO的人说，这本书你一定要读。

And I I tell people that are getting into learning about UFOs, you have to read this book.

然后他们就说，哦，这书太老了。

And then they say, oh, like, it's really old.

我就说，别管那个。

And I said, forget about that part.

这本书是在为后来的一切打基础。

Like, this is building the foundation of everything that is going to, come afterwards.

而且他确实被认为是“不明飞行物”这个词的创造者。

And he he actually is credited with coining the term unidentified flying object.

他们以前用“飞碟”和“飞盘”，因为军方觉得这些词用在各种形状和性能的物体上会误导人。

They used to use flying saucer and flying disc because the military thought them to be misleading when applied to objects of every conceivable shape and performance.

因此，军方更喜欢用更笼统但没那么生动的“不明飞行物”，也就是UFO，但他们以前发音是“UFO”。

For this reason, the military military prefers the more general, if less colorful name on identified flying objects, UFO, but they used to pronounce it UFO.

还有一点让我印象很深的是，这本书写得真的很好。

Now something that, really also really hit me is the book, it was really well written.

他们说他也请了代笔，但读起来就是很有味道。

They they say he had a a ghost writer as well, but it just had a good voice.

它非常中立、有条理，信息量很大。

It was very neutral, organized, a lot of information.

它没有什么倾向性。

It it it didn't have an agenda.

真的非常棒……

It was really neat...

真的带你深入了解蓝皮书计划，在那个年代确实非常了不起。

Really taking you behind the scenes of, Project Blue Book, which was really extraordinary back in in that era for sure.

我之前在五十年代的一些电视节目片段里见过鲁佩尔特。

And I had seen Ruppelt on a couple of clips of TV shows he had been on in the fifties.

但在这盘录音带里听了他将近一个小时，这盘带子刚刚在war.gov的UFO信息第六次下载中发布，我真的觉得，哇。

But listening to him for almost an hour on this audio tape, which just came out in the sixth, download of UFO information on the, war.gov UFO site, I really felt, wow.

他就是我一直以来认为的那个人。

He is the person I've always thought he was.

他非常科学严谨。

He is very scientific.

他说话非常简洁。

He's very concise.

他直截了当。

He's to the point.

感觉他没有什么预设立场。

It doesn't feel like he has an agenda.

他并不是想说服你相信某个观点。

He's not trying to convince you one way or the other.

他就像是在探索这些到底是什么。

It's like he's on a journey to find out what these are.

而且他特意强调说，我……

And he he kind of went out of his way to say, I am...

我不是说这些是外星来的，或者来自火星什么的。

I'm not saying these are extraterrestrial or these are from these are from Mars or anything.

我们不知道它们是什么。

We don't know what they are.

所以，我们确实在努力查明真相。

So, we're definitely trying to find out.

对，他确实，看到那段视频真是太酷了。

And, yeah, he definitely, it was so cool to see the the clip.

我是说，能看到它真是太棒了。

I mean, it's so cool to see it.

但有一点很突出，就是他的诚实。

But the one thing comes through is his honesty.

就像，我们不知道。

It's like, we don't know.

我们一点头绪都没有。

We don't have a clue.

所以还有一件事非常非常让人困惑。

So here's another thing that is very, very confusing.

这次会议是在波士顿举行的，我记得是1952年。

So this meeting took place in, Boston in, 1952, I believe it was.

而且他……

And he...

那是一次保密会议。

It was a confidential meeting.

所以会上所有人说的每句话，都不会传到媒体那里。

So everything everyone was saying in this meeting, it wasn't going to the press.

也不会写进书里。

It wasn't gonna be in a book.

那些都不会。

None of that stuff.

这就像是……

This was like...

我觉得他们应该都是军人，但他们都在谈论这个经常上头条的现象。

I believe they were all military men, but they were all talking about this phenomenon that was in the headlines all the time.

而这里有一点，很多人其实都忽略了，因为你总是读到这些书，还有播客上的人说，你知道，美国军方有这个。

And here is something which a lot of other people have just kind of glossed over because you always read these, books and people on podcasts saying, you know, the US military had this.

他们确实这么做了。

They did this.

他们确实有外星人。

They had aliens.

他们确实有坠毁的UFO。

They had crashed, UFOs.

但当你听到这些人在这个机密会议上的谈话时，最让人印象深刻的是，他们其实不知道那些东西是什么。

But when you're hearing these people talk in this confidential meeting, the thing that really comes through is that they didn't know what they were.

这让你不禁停下来思考……

And it makes you pause because you think...

所以有可能还有一层保密级别，是鲁佩尔特上尉或者这个会议里的任何人都不知道的。

So it is possible there was another layer of secrecy that, captain Ruppelt didn't know or any of the people in this meeting.

但奇怪的是，他们中没有一个人提到，比如，你知道的，罗斯威尔。

But it's odd that none of them talked like, oh, you know, Roswell.

就像，你知道的，我们在51区有外星人。

Like, you know you know we have aliens in Area 51.

就是，没人说过那种话，而且这可是个机密会议。

Like, no one said anything like that, and this was a confidential meeting.

所以又不是说他们要对外公开或者什么的。

So it's not like they were going on record for the press or anything like that.

除了我们真的不知道这些东西是什么之外，没有任何别的暗示。

There was no hint of anything other than we we legitimately don't know what these things are.

这确实让人挺费解的，也有点让人困惑。

And that is quite puzzling and a little bit confusing.

这就会让你想，如果其他那些事都是真的，比如罗斯威尔或者其他地方有坠毁的飞行器，还有被捕获的外星人。

It just makes you think that for all of these other things to be true, like, you know, if there was a crashed vehicle at Roswell or many of these other spots and there are captured aliens.

如果那些都是真的，那保密程度肯定非常高。

For any of that to be true, then it has to be very, very secret

高到连这些人都完全没察觉到，这确实值得深思。

In a way that these gentlemen didn't didn't even have an inkling of, which is definitely something to ponder.

那是肯定的。

That's for sure.

嗯……

Well...

你知道弗洛伊德说过，有时候雪茄就是雪茄。

And you know what Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

是的。

Yes.

你知道，有时候，你看到一群人坐在那里说，我们不知道。

You know, sometimes, you know, you see a bunch of guys sitting around going, we don't know.

我们一点头绪都没有。

We don't have any idea.

你知道吗？

You know?

这恰恰是阴谋论的反面。

Which is the antithesis of conspiracy.

但是，就像你说的，这是一次机密会议，不是……

But, you know, like you say, this is a confidential meeting, not a...

那区别是什么呢？

What was the distinction?

这是保密会议，不是机密会议，对吧？

This is a confidential meeting, not a classified meeting?

所以，根据我做的研究，明确显示这绝对不是绝密会议。

So they they definitely, this research I did, it came up, and it said this definitely wasn't a top secret meeting.

就是这样。

That's it.

但这是一次保密会议。

But it was a confidential meeting.

所以，不管你说什么，都不会被公开，也不会第二天上报纸之类的。

So, definitely, whatever you're saying, it's not being broadcast or, you know, it's not gonna be on the newspapers the next day, that kind of thing.

那我们怎么讨论这段录音呢？我们把它分成了四个部分。

So how we are going to discuss this audio tape is we have divided it into four sections.

我知道很多其他UFO播客都播放了完整的六十五分钟录音，如果你想听的话，可以去war.gov的UFO网站上听。

So I know a lot of other UFO podcasts have played the entire sixty five minute, recording, and you can you can listen to that on the, war.gov UFO site if you if you would like to do that part.

这很有意思，所以我建议大家听完整段录音。

And it is interesting, so I would recommend listening to the entire thing.

你可以听，还可以下载完整的文字记录。

And you can listen to it and also download a full transcript.

不过为了我们的目的，我们挑了四段重点来讨论。

But for our purposes, we have picked four segments which we're gonna focus in on.

最后一段绝对是最劲爆的，哇，我觉得光这一段就能再做两三期节目。

And the last segment, definitely the juiciest, wow, stuff that I think it could be another two or three episodes for sure.

所以第一部分，我们叫它第一节，就是“空军改变主意”。

So part one or what we're gonna call section one is, what we're gonna call the air force changes its mind.

我们现在就播放这段，听完之后我们马上回来。

And we are gonna play that now, and we'll be right back after you listen to this.

大约在1947年开始出现。

Began to appear in about 1947.

你可能通过报纸报道对它们有一定了解。

You're possibly familiar with them to a certain extent following newspaper reports.

最早是肯尼斯·阿诺德在1947年6月，在爱达荷州那边提到的。

The first ones were cited by Kenneth Arnold in June 1947 out in Idaho.

我现在就管它们叫这些东西，因为我们根本不知道面对的是什么。

Now I'll refer to them as these things because we have no idea what we're dealing with.

当时报纸和广播大肆渲染，结果可能给这个问题添了点集体恐慌之类的情绪。

The newspapers and radio played them up to a great degree at that time, and consequently introduced a little bit of probably a little bit of mass hysteria or something like that into the problem.

它们大概持续了……

They flared up for about...

哦，断断续续差不多两年，然后这些东西就……

Oh, spasmodically for about two years, and then the things were...

在一定程度上平息下来了。

Died down to a certain extent.

空军在第一次目击事件后不久就接手了这个项目，因为公众要求对这些物体给出解释。

The Air Force took over this project soon after the first sighting because the public demanded an explanation of these objects.

1949年8月，空军发布了一份报告，据说是关于这个的最终报告，里面得出了几个结论。

In August 1949, the Air Force came out with a report, supposedly a final report on this, where they reached a few conclusions.

当时他们有一些特定领域的专家在研究这个问题，你可能会想知道他们是谁。

Now they had some specialists in certain fields working on this problem, and you might be interested in knowing who they were.

有一位博士。

There's a Doctor.

A.

A.

J.

J.

海尼克，俄亥俄州立大学的天文学家，博士。

Hynek, an astronomer at Ohio State Doctor.

G.

G.

科学顾问委员会的瓦利博士。

Valley of the Scientific Advisory Board Doctor.

航空医学实验室的菲茨博士，我记得他好像是心理学家，还有兰德公司、空军气象局、剑桥野外站，以及美国商务部气象局。

Fitz of the Aero Medical Lab, believe he was a psychologist the RAIN Corporation Air Weather Service Cambridge Field Station and the US Department of Commerce Weather Bureau.

这些人全都接手了那些报告。

All those people took the reports.

我记得当时他们大概有三百份报告。

I believe they had about 300 reports at that time.

他们拿过报告，仔细读了一遍，然后得出了结论。

They took the reports and read them over, came up with their conclusions.

虽然他们的结论在某种程度上有所不同，但他们都一致认为，他们并不清楚那些到底是什么。

While their conclusions varied to a certain extent, they all agreed that they didn't know exactly what they were.

不过，那些东西显然对美国没有直接威胁，所以他们也就没太在意。

However, they were obviously no direct threat to The United States, so they didn't pay too much more attention to them.

空军在那份报告中得出了几个结论。

The Air Force came up with several conclusions in that report.

其中一个结论是，那是一种轻微的集体歇斯底里，可能是因为战争刚刚结束，我们可以说是战争刚结束那会儿。

One of them was it was a mild case of warhead of mass hysteria due to, when we might say warners, the war was just over.

还有一些是出于心理有问题的人，或者说是疯子之类的人，想制造点轰动，或者为了出名，或者纯粹是……

Some of them were due to psychopathical people or nuts, something like that, trying to create an excitement or get publicity or pure...

纯粹是恶作剧。

Due to pure hoaxes.

另一个结论是，它们是对常规物体的误判。

And the other one was that they were due to misinterpretation of conventional objects.

嗯，从那以后，几年过去了，我们得以回头稍微审视一下这些结论。

Well, since that time, several years has passed, we've been able to go back and review these conclusions a little bit.

我们能够排除所有其他原因，只剩下对常规物体的误判。

We've been able to drop out all except the misinterpretation of conventional objects.

现在，我们记录在案的案例大约有800起，其中只有大约2%是真正的恶作剧，或者是那些精神有问题、根本不知道自己看到什么的人。

Back, we have approximately 800 cases now on record, and only about two percent of those are actual hoaxes or psychopathological people who just don't know what they see.

当然，对已知物体的误判仍然是一个重要因素。

The misinterpretation of known objects is still, of course, a large factor.

我是说，这可能解释所有案例。

I mean, that could possibly account for all of them.

不过，这有点令人怀疑。

However, it's a little bit doubtful.

我们仔细看了这些报告，发现大约百分之二十的报告质量很高，来自非常可靠的人，但完全得不出任何结论。

We've gone through these reports and come up with the fact that about twenty percent are very good reports offered by very reliable people and are just absolutely no conclusions can be drawn.

集体歇斯底里的因素已经消失了，因为过去大约三年里，报纸没有大肆渲染这件事。

The mass hysteria factor has gone out because the newspapers haven't played this up for the last approximately three years.

偶尔会有一些小波动，但完全没什么好大惊小怪的，而且报告还是不断涌来。

There's occasional flurries, but nothing to get excited about at all, and still reports continue to come in.

我们在1949年就停止了这项特别项目，但自那以后，它一直作为常规情报材料在处理。

We dropped this project in 1949, as I said, as a special project, as regular intelligence material since that time.

大约去年十月，我们觉得手头的材料可能已经足够多了，于是决定重新启动这个案子。

We've decided here, about last October, we decided there possibly was enough material now to reopen this case.

所以中心指派了一位常驻项目工程师，我就是那位工程师，我们重新审查了所有这些材料。

So the center appointed a permanent project engineer, I'm the project engineer, and we reviewed all this stuff.

我们把所有案例都拿出来，重新整理，归档得井井有条，这样我们就能清楚自己手头有什么。

We took all the cases that we had, reworked them, filed them all in a neat file so we could tell what we had.

我们仔细梳理并交叉索引了所有材料，以便了解这些报告中涉及的各种因素。

We went through and cross indexed all the material so that we could get an idea of the different factors that were involved in these reports.

我们得出了一些结果。

We came up with some results.

我不会说这些结果很突出。

I won't say they're outstanding results.

我们不知道这些结果意味着什么。

We don't know what the results mean.

不过我很幸运，没想到会有这么多观众，所以没带幻灯片来。

But I'm lucky I didn't realize we're gonna have such a large audience here, so we didn't bring any slides along.

我不知道后面的人能不能看到这张图。

I don't know whether any of in the back room see this print.

我把它传一下，你们可以看看。

I'll pass it around and you can get an idea.

这是美国境内目击事件的分布图。

This is a plot of the sightings in The United States.

现在这还不包括……

Now this does not include the...

我们在美国以外也有目击事件。

We have sightings outside The United States.

目前我们不太担心那些。

We're not too worried about those at the present time.

我们更关注美国本土的情况。

We're more interested in The United States.

既然你们看不到，我就稍微解释一下。

I'll explain this a little bit to you since you can't see it.

在美国某些地区，目击事件比较集中。

We have certain areas in The United States where there are concentrations.

比如俄亥俄州的代顿和哥伦布，就有集中的情况。

In Dayton and Columbus, Ohio, there are concentrations.

这可能是两个原因造成的。

Now this is possibly due to two things.

一个原因是，那个地区的人知道这个项目的所有活动都发生在那里，所以他们报告的频率稍微高一些。

One of them is the fact that the people in that area knew that all the activity in this project was taking place in that area, and consequently they doing a little bit more reporting.

另一个原因是，所有的实验飞行都在那个区域附近进行，我们在这方面还是有很多麻烦。

Another thing is of all the experimental flying was being done around right field, and we still have a lot of trouble with that.

人们打电话来说，刚看到一个巨大的亮光以每小时五千英里的速度飞过，然后它翻转……

People call in and say, just saw a great big light go over 5,000 miles an hour, and it turns over...

结果发现那是一架飞机，带着照明弹之类的东西。

It's a turns out it's an airplane carrying a flare or something like that.

所以我们不把那个区域的报告当回事。

So we disregard that concentration.

不过，在美国的所有港口附近，比如旧金山、洛杉矶、纽约市沿海地区和新奥尔良，都有集中的目击报告。

However, around all the ports in The United States, San Francisco, Los Angeles, the coastal area around New York City, and New Orleans, there's concentrations.

在洛斯阿拉莫斯和阿尔伯克基地区，也有集中的目击报告。

Around Los Alamos and the Albuquerque area, there's concentrations.

在白沙附近，也有集中的目击报告。

Around White Sands, there's concentrations.

还有在德克萨斯州的坎普伍德这里。

And down here at Camp Wood, Texas.

这个德克萨斯州坎普伍德的集中现象，是因为大约两年前那里出现了一连串奇怪的灯光。

Now this Camp Wood, Texas concentration was due to an outbreak of odd lights about two years ago.

他们一直没能确定那些灯光到底是什么。

They never did determine exactly what the lights were.

那是一种很特别的报告，之后就没再出现过，所以我们也没太在意。

They were a special, we might say a special type of report that haven't occurred again, and we haven't paid too much attention to that.

但橡树岭和阿尔伯克基附近的那几起，可能有点名堂。

But the ones around Oak Ridge and the ones around Albuquerque may possibly mean something.

我们也不清楚。

We don't know.

其他报告在美国各地分布得比较分散。

The rest of the reports are pretty well scattered out around The United States.

呃……

The...

如果你按年份把这些报告标出来，1947年它们最早出现在西海岸，主要在西北部，像华盛顿州、俄勒冈州、爱达荷州那一带。

If you plot these reports up by years, they started in the West Coast, up around in the Northwest around Washington, Oregon, Idaho in 1947.

第二年，它们就……

The next year, they were...

在一定程度上，它们倾向于出现在东海岸。

They tended to be on the East Coast to a certain extent.

从那以后，它们就遍布全美国了。

And from then on, they were just spread out all The United States.

没有任何规律。

There was no no pattern.

这就是我们第一次听到爱德华·J·鲁佩尔特上尉的讲话。

So that was our first listen to captain Edward J.

鲁佩尔特，不加修饰，不是对着电视观众，非常冷静、克制，绝对掌控局面。

Ruppelt unvarnished, not for a TV audience, very cool, controlled, definitely in command.

他听起来很有教养。

He sounds very educated.

而且有一件事他肯定做到了，那就是他明确表示，当他使用“无法解释”这个词时，他并不是指外星人。

And one thing he did for sure is he made it clear that when he was using the word unexplained, he did not mean extraterrestrial.

这其实只是说，他的调查无法为很多这类目击事件找到一个令人满意的常规解释。

And it kind of just meant that his investigations could not establish a a satisfactory conventional explanation for a lot of these sightings.

而且，就像我一直说的，他说的每句话里最棒的一点就是——我们不知道。

And and the nice thing, as I keep saying, in in everything he says, it's we don't know.

他说，你知道，UFO的集中出现可能意味着什么。

He said, you know, the concentrations of UFOs might mean something.

他只是不知道是什么造成了这些现象。

He just doesn't know what produced them.

他不知道。

He doesn't know.

有趣的是，他之前提到，空军最初认为这些报告源于集体歇斯底里、妄想、恶作剧或误认。

And it's interesting how he, you know, talking about previously, he describes earlier the Air Force thought reports resulted from mass hysteria or delusion and hoaxes or misidentification.

然后他说，不，我们排除了这些，因为只有大约2%的报告是恶作剧，而大约20%是调查人员无法得出结论的有效报告。

And then he says, no, we got rid of that, because only about 2% of the reports were hoaxes, and that roughly 20% of them were good reports for which investigators had no conclusion.

你明白吗？

You know?

这些数字相当可观。

And those are significant numbers.

是的。

Yes.

而且我相信……

And I believe...

我没有确切的数字，但他提到的样本量是……

I don't have the exact number, but he's talking about a sample of...

我记得大概是3800或4000个案例，他们调查过。

I think it was either 3,800 or 4,000 cases that they had looked into.

所以这个20%的比例确实有点惊人，他们没能给出解释，而且他们还做了很多地理分布图。

And so that is a bit amazing, this 20% figure that they could not come up with, and also that they had done a lot of, geographical plotting.

而且很多目击事件都发生在洛斯阿拉莫斯、白沙和橡树岭附近。

And a lot of these sightings were around Los Alamos and White Sands and Oak Ridge.

而且他……

And he's...

在他的演讲中，他……

In the, his speech there, he...

他说这增加了国家安全层面的考量，因为你知道，这些地点与原子武器、导弹测试以及先进的军事研究有关。

It said this added a national security dimension because, you know, these sites are associated with atomic weapons, missile testing, and advanced, military research.

演讲中的百分比是……

And percentages in the talk are...

它们是近似值。

They're approximate.

它们指的是1952年当时可用的案例数量。

They refer to the case population available at the moment in 1952.

所以记住，这只是那一年的统计数据，并不代表后来的百分比。

So just remember, it's the statistic for that year, which wouldn't be percentages for later.

而他……

And he...

你能感觉到他的态度和方法发生了变化，他认为这确实需要保密并进行研究，而不是公开声明。

What you sense from him, there's a change in method and attitude saying this really needs to be classified and studied, not a declaration.

他从来没有说过UFO是宇宙飞船。

At no time does he say UFOs are spacecraft.

对。

That's right.

他……

He...

我觉得就像他的书一样，他对自己解释或谈论的内容总是保持一点谨慎。

I think like his book, he always remains a little bit cautious about what he is explaining or or talking about.

而且谨慎，但不否定。

And cautious, not dismissive.

对。

That's right.

这很重要。

That's very important.

从他说过的所有话里能看出来，他从来没有否定过任何一个目击者。

He was, you can tell by all these things he said, he never, dismissed a witness.

他从来没有嘲笑过他们，或者做过类似的事情。

He never ridiculed them or or anything like that.

而且，我的意思是，如果真的是那样的话，那为什么空军还要保留这些报告呢？

And, I mean, if it was, then why did the air force, you know, retain this group of reports?

他还想知道为什么这些报告都集中在敏感设施附近。

And he wanted to know why they were clustered around sensitive installations.

这意味着什么？

What does this mean?

我觉得这就是我们在这里讨论的根本问题。

That's that's the fundamental thing I think we're getting here.

这到底是什么，又意味着什么？

What is this, and what does it mean?

还有，他们提到了一些事情，而且这……

Also, something, they mentioned, and this...

记住，这是在1952年，他们……

Keep in mind, this is in 1952 that they...

他当时正在发表这个演讲。

He was giving this speech.

我当时就想，哇。

And I thought, wow.

这么多年过去了，事情竟然没什么变化。

How little things have changed in all those years.

所以这是演讲中的一句原话。

So this is a quote directly from the speech.

他说，然而，当时并没有对美国构成明显的直接威胁，所以他们并没有太在意那些东西到底是什么。

He said, however, there was no obvious, direct threat to The United States, so they didn't pay too much attention, to whatever they were.

所以这一点其实一直没变。

And so that has not really changed.

我……

I I...

在我多年的研究中，我发现的就是这样，你知道，你会看到……

In a lot of my research over the years, that is what I have found that, you know, you'll see...

嗯，这个东西在核试验场上空盘旋，但没人太当回事。

Well, this thing was hovering over a nuclear, testing site, but no one got too excited.

就像，哦，好吧，它走了。

Like, oh, well, it left.

你懂吗？

You know?

然后，你知道，那些在六十年代飞到梅尔斯特罗姆导弹基地的UFO，它们把所有的核弹都关闭了。

And then, you know, like, all those UFOs that went to, like, Maelstrom Missile Base in in the sixties, and they shut down all the nukes.

这些简直是不可思议的事件，但你知道，我想他们调查了一下，然后生活继续了。

These are, like, incredible events, but, you know, I guess they were investigated and life rolled on.

就像，这似乎没让任何人太担心，这总是让我深思。

Like, it it didn't seem to get anybody too worried, which always made me, really think.

好的。

Okay.

那么现在我们进入第二部分，我们不会称之为表演和报告污名。

So now we're gonna do section two, and this isn't something that we're gonna call performance and the reporting stigma.

那我们现在就来听听这个。

And so let's listen to that now.

在这两年，也就是47年和48年，报纸上有很多报道。

In these two years, '47 and '48, there was a lot of newspaper publicity.

但是到了49年、50年和51年，报纸上的报道就很少了。

However, in 4950, and '51, there was very little newspaper publicity.

而且49年到51年的报告大多来自军方。

And the reports from 4950 '51 are mostly from military sources.

平民就不怎么报了，可能是因为他们不知道怎么报道这些事，或者根本不感兴趣。

The civilians have dropped out because possibly they didn't know how to report this stuff or they weren't interested in it.

空军出来说没什么大不了的，所以他们就干脆不报。

The Air Force came out and said that there was nothing to it, so they just quit making reports.

不过军方一直在继续报告。

However, military has continued to make reports.

应该说，这两年的报告主要来自军方和少数航空公司的飞行员。

I should say military and a few airlines pilots are covering these two years.

根据报告的形状来看。

Taken the reported shapes.

我们有很多问题。

We have a lot of questions.

人们会说，嗯，大家在报告什么呢？

People say, well, what what are people reporting?

所以我们按形状进行了分类。

So we've broken it down into shapes.

在这一段里，没有报告任何形状。

In this segment here, there were no shapes reported.

有人只是打电话或写信说看到了什么东西，所以我们不得不忽略它。

Somebody just called in and wrote a letter and said I saw something, so we've had to disregard it.

这一段代表某种天体。

This segment right here represents some type of of an astronomical body.

我的意思是，你可以说它是天空中的一道亮光，或者是一道可能来自流星的光迹。

I mean, you could say it was either a bright light in the sky or a streak of light that could have been a meteor.

我们把那些都归在一起了。

We've lumped all those together.

在这一部分，我们的碟形物是球形物体。

In this section, our discs are spherical shaped objects.

我们把那些归在一起，因为……

We've lumped those together because it's...

我们认为，除非人们能从底部和侧面同时看到，才能确定是碟形，否则很难分辨是碟形还是球形。

We don't believe that people can tell if they're seeing a disc or a sphere unless they should happen to see it both in the bottom view and edgewise to determine it's a disc.

所以我们都归在一起了。

So we've lumped those all together.

其中一些可能是气球。

Some of these could be balloons.

这一点毫无疑问。

I mean, there's no doubt about that.

它们可能是气象气球。

They could be weather balloons.

不过，要说……

However, to...

或者说，和大家的普遍看法相反，这些东西并不是……

Or contrary to popular opinion, these things, they are not...

绝对不全是气球。

Are definitely not all balloons.

这些只是报告为椭圆形的形状。

These are shapes that just report as oval shapes.

很难判断它们是什么。

It's difficult to tell what they are.

杂项几乎什么都能算。

Miscellaneous is almost anything.

飞机尾迹很可能确实是飞机的尾迹。

Vapor trails probably actually were vapor trails of aircraft.

这里面有一小部分，只占百分之零点几……

There's one small segment in here, which is only tenths of 1% of the...

全部800份报告，都是关于成组的光点划过天空的报告。

All 800 reports, and that is reports of groups of lights going through the sky.

处理这些报告我们遇到了不少困难，因为报告通常来自相当可靠的来源，他们会看到，哦，从六个到二十个光点排成队形，飞速划过天空。

And we've had quite a bit of difficulty with those because the reports are usually from pretty good sources, and they'll see, oh, anywhere from six to 20 lights in a formation going streaking across the sky.

嗯，这几乎不可能……

Well, it's almost impossible that that would...

你不可能同时看到六颗流星。

That you would find six meteors together.

我理解，看到两颗流星在一起，看起来像编队飞行，是有可能的，但再多就不可能了。

I I understand it's possible to see two of them together that would appear to be in formation, but no more than that.

有1%的报告说是气球。

Certain percentage, 1%, are reported to be balloons.

这些气球我们没能查明来源。

Now these are balloons that we've not been able to establish the origin.

换句话说，我们不知道它们就是飘在美国上空的气球，可能是气象站跑出来的气象气球，到了该爆的时候没爆。

In other words, we don't they're just balloons floating over The United States, and they're probably meteorological balloons that have gotten loose from some station and and haven't burst when they were supposed to.

有2.5%的情况看起来像是真正的飞机。

Two and a half percent resemble actual aircraft.

我们之前还讨论过，这些物体会不会是苏联那种高度先进的飞行器。

We've had quite a bit of discussion as to whether or not these objects could possibly be some highly developed aircraft type that the Soviets have.

不过我们基本已经排除了这种可能，因为只有一小部分报告提到了类似飞机的形状。

We've almost been able to throw that out because a small percentage of reports that even mention any shape due to aircraft that would resemble aircraft.

这里提到的百分比，是指那些被报告为火箭或雪茄状物体的情况。

This percentage here are reported to be rockets or cigar shaped objects.

再说一次，我们对此进行了非常深入的调查，发现……

Now once again, we've gone into that quite thoroughly and have found that, and it's...

根据常识，任何在空气中快速移动的光源都会在视网膜上留下影像，产生视觉暂留，所以看起来是拉长的，但实际上它只是一个圆形的发光体。

We use common knowledge that any bright light traveling through the air will burn an image, in your eye and will, you'll have some persistence there, and it will appear to be elongated when actually it's just a round source of light.

嗯，这些就是我们遇到的一些形状。

Well, that's some of the shapes that we've had.

现在回到这种圆盘状或球状的物体，它们总是没有声音的。

Now down in getting back to this disc or spherical shaped objects, these things are are always silent.

我的意思是，如果我们假设我们面对的这个物体是圆盘状的，那它们总是无声的，而且通常机动性很强。

I mean, if if we wanna assume that this object we're dealing with is a disc shaped thing, these are always silent, and they're usually highly maneuverable.

不过最近收到的报告里，都没怎么提那种90度转弯的事了。

Although lately, the reports that have been coming in have neglected to put this 90 degree turn business in.

它们就是高速飞过去。

They just go over at at a great rate of speed.

但它们无声这一点很有意思，因为我们完全不知道有哪种动力装置能做到完全无声。

But, the fact that they're silent is quite interesting because we, we have no knowledge of any type of power plant that would, that would be completely silent.

这些就是给我们发报告的人的类型。

Now these are the types of people that send in our reports.

这部分是平民，而且这些报告大多是在1947年和48年我们项目刚启动的时候收到的。

This segment here are civilians, and most of these reports came in when our project was first initiated back in 1947 and '48.

这块黑色部分是从军方渠道来的报告。

This black segment here are reports from military sources.

而且我们只是把他们当作地面军官，不是……

And there, we've put them in as just ground officers, not...

通常不是飞行员，或者至少报告不是从空中提交的。

Usually not flying officers, or at least the reports are not made from the air.

这里有一小部分雷达回波，我们一直无法解释。

We have a small segment here of radar returns that we've been unable to explain.

这部分是民用飞行员在目击时正在空中飞行的报告。

This section right here are reports from civilian pilots who were airborne at the time of the sighting.

尤其是这一部分，是我们非常感兴趣的。

This segment in here, especially, is the one we're very interested in.

这些报告来自民航飞行员、塔台操作员和气球观测员。

There are reports from airline pilots, from tower operators, and balloon observers.

这些气球观测员通常是像通用磨坊公司那样的团队，他们负责发射高空气球。

Now these balloon observers are normally people like the General Mills crews that launch these high altitude balloons.

这里还有技术训练有素的人员，比如科学家、工程师等等。

And here we have technically trained personnel such as scientists, engineers, and so forth.

正如我所说，这部分是我们非常关注的。

This segment, as I said, are the ones that we're very much interested in.

现在，航空公司飞行员是……

Now airline pilots are...

我们认为他们非常可靠，因为他们非常……

We consider very reliable because they're very...

嗯，他们不喜欢冒险出头，除非他们完全确定看到了什么，否则不会提交这些报告。

Well, they don't like to stick their neck out and make one of these reports unless they're absolutely sure they saw something.

在最近这一波报告期间，他们第一次受到了一些非常不利的公众关注，我应该说，在47年和48年，他们完全拒绝给我们报告，除非他们完全确信自己看到了什么。

They received some very unfavorable publicity during this last rash of reports for the first time, I should say, in '47 and '48 and '80 absolutely refused to give us reports unless they're completely sold that they saw something.

我和不少飞行员聊过，其中一位说，如果他往窗外看，看到一枚V2火箭之类的东西在斯波坎上空和他并排飞行，他不会告诉任何人。

I've talked to quite a few of the pilots, and one of them made the statement that if he looked out his window and saw a v two rocket or something like that flying wingtip to wingtip with him over Spokane, he wouldn't tell anybody about it.

我的意思是，他绝不会向空军报告，因为……

I mean, he'd never report to the Air Force because...

或者告诉任何人，因为他们只会说这太疯狂了，可能会让他停飞。

Or to anybody because they just say it was crazy and probably grounding.

所以这就是我们从航空公司飞行员那里获取报告的一大困难。

So that's a big difficulty we have in getting reports from airline pilots.

我们确实听到一些传闻，说他们看到了很多奇怪的东西，但都没有上报，尤其是在近东、伊朗和中东地区，我是说伊朗、巴勒斯坦、埃及这些航线。

We do hear through the grapevine that that they see an awful lot of odd things and that they don't report, especially over in the Near East, Iran and Middle East, I should say, Iran, Palestine, Egypt, and those runs.

不过我们还没能证实这是事实。

Now we haven't been able to pin that down as fact.

那只是我们和其他飞行员聊天时听到的传言。

That's just a rumor that we've picked up in in talking to other airline pilots.

我们听其他飞行员这么说过，但一直没能证实。

We've heard other airline pilots say that, but we've never been able to pin it down.

不过，如果能查清楚的话会很有意思，我们也在努力尝试。

However, it would be very interesting to find out, and we're making attempts.

虽然我们遇到了很多麻烦，因为我说过，飞行员就是不想惹人注意，他们不愿意做那些报告。

Although, we've run up against a lot of trouble because I said the pilots just don't want publicity, they won't make those reports.

这一段是空军飞行员在空中目击时报告的。

This segment in here have been reported by Air Force pilots in their aerial sightings.

其中很多其实是气球。

A lot of these have been balloons.

我们在气球上遇到了很多麻烦。

We've had a lot of trouble with the balloons in it.

飞行员在空中遇到气球时，并不清楚气球会怎么动。

A pilot meeting a balloon in the air isn't familiar with what that balloon's gonna do.

我的意思是，他熟悉遇到另一架飞机的情况，而且他已经想好了接近速度应该是什么样的，以及其他类似的事情。

I mean, he's familiar with meeting another airplane, and he's already made up his mind as to what the rate of closure should be and different things like that.

他通常会假设遇到气球时，它……

He'll usually assume that when he meets a balloon that it's...

而不是气球，它是一个直径大约30到40英尺的物体。

Instead of a balloon, it's some object about 30 or 40 feet in diameter.

根据接近速度来判断，他以为它是以非常快的速度在移动。

And judging the rate of closure, he assumes it's going at a very terrific speed.

但在某些情况下，我们确实能够证明那位飞行员是被误导了，那其实是一个气球。

But we've been able, in some cases, to actually show how that pilot was misled and that it was actually a balloon.

不过，我们并不试图说所有东西都是气球。

However, we don't we don't try to say that everything was a balloon.

换句话说，如果那个区域有气球升空，我们会尽量把它确定下来。

In other words, if a a balloon was launched in the area, we we try to definitely pin that down.

我们可以获取发射时间、气球、上升速率、高空风，然后画出气球的路径和飞行员的路径，通过不同的视线角度来展示他确实看到了气球。

And we can get the time of launch, the balloon, the rate of ascent, the winds aloft, and we can plot out the path of that balloon and plot out the pilot's path and show by various lines of sight how he actually did see the balloon.

过去，我们常常只是说，嗯，一百英里内有个气球升空了。

In the past, it's been a practice to say, well, there was a balloon launched within a hundred miles.

所以飞行员一定是看到了气球。

Consequently, the pilot must have seen a balloon.

我们不想再那样做了，因为那……

We don't want to try that because it's...

我们只是想在下结论说是气球之前，有更多的证据。

Well, we just want to have more proof before we say that it's a balloon.

空军过去因为把气球和目击事件联系得太随意，惹了不少麻烦。

And the Air Force has gotten into a lot of trouble in the past by very loosely tying up these balloons with the sightings.

我们有一些这些物体的照片，它们……

We have some photographs of these objects that...

应该说，我们手头的照片还挺多的。

We we have quite a few photographs, I should say.

其中很多要么是恶作剧，要么就是底片上的瑕疵。

A lot of them are definitely either hoaxes or else they're, flaws in the negative.

那些发现照片的人看了之后会说，我拍的是天空，可我没看到这个飞碟啊。

And the people that have found this print have looked at it and said, I took a picture of the sky, and I didn't see this flying saucer.

虽然照片上确实有，他们就会把照片寄给我们。

Although, here's a picture of it, and they'll send it in to us.

用显微镜检查一下底片的感光层，其实不难发现……

It's not too difficult to, examine the emulsion through a microscope and find out that it...

这个影像其实是底片上的缺陷造成的。

That the image is due to a an imperfection in the negative.

不过，确实有几张照片很难判断。

However, we have a few photographs that are very difficult to evaluate.

这张就是其中之一。

This is one of them right here.

这张照片是1947年7月7日在亚利桑那州凤凰城拍的。

It was taken in Phoenix, Arizona on the 07/07/1947.

这张照片被传得沸沸扬扬，对于它是否被故意伪造，一直有些怀疑。

This has been hatched around quite a bit, and there's a little bit of doubt as to the...

但我们始终没能证实这一点。

Whether or not this was purposely faked, but we've never been able to prove it.

这张照片可能是我们收到过的最有趣的一张，主要是因为我们对它的背景做了很多调查。

This picture is probably the most interesting one that we've ever received, mainly because we went into the background of this thing a lot more.

这张是去年九月在德克萨斯州拉伯克拍的。

This was taken in Lubbock, Texas last September.

这个拉伯克案例可能是最有趣的。

Now, this Lubbock case is probably the most interesting one.

整个案例是我们遇到过的最有意思的。

The whole case is the most interesting one we've ever had.

当时，五位来自德州理工学院的大学教授，有天晚上坐在后院里，我记得那是在八月。

These five college professors from Texas Tech were sitting out in the backyard one evening, and I believe it was in August.

是8月25号。

It's August 25.

他们碰巧在讨论流星，所以就坐在那儿抬头看天空。

And they happened to be discussing meteors, and so they were sitting there looking up in the sky.

突然，这一串光飞过去了。

All of a sudden, this bunch of lights went over.

然后其中一个人，他们互相看了看，说：那是什么？

And so one of them, they looked at each other and said, what was that?

好像没人知道。

Nobody seemed to know.

大约半小时后，他们还在讨论那些光，他们说希望那种东西能再飞过去一次，结果真的又来了。

And so about a half an hour later, while they were still discussing the lights, and they said they wished that something like that would go over again, and it did.

因为……

For...

嗯，总共，在大概五六天的时间里，他们观察到了12次这样的东西飞过。

Well, altogether, in a period of, I believe it was five or six nights, they observed 12 of these things that went over.

他们当时以为是空军在研发的某种导弹。

Well, they assumed that it was some kind of a missile that the Air Force had been developing.

他们挺好奇的，就想搞清楚这到底是什么。他们是在看到前两个之后才得出这个结论的，然后决定要弄清楚这些导弹是什么。

And being nosy, they thought they'd find out what this, well, they reached this conclusion after they saw the first two that they'd find out what these missiles were.

于是他们自己搭建了测量……

So they set up their own measuring...

简陋的测量系统。

Crude measuring systems.

他们设法搭建了一个……

They were able to set up a...

或者说，他们通过测量后院房子等物体的角度，来确定这个东西飞过的角度，并用秒表计时。

Or measure the angles on the on the houses and things in their backyard so they could tell, like, the angle this thing went through, and they timed it with a stopwatch.

他们还设置了一条与飞行路径成90度的基线。

They also set up a baseline 90 degrees to the path.

顺便说一句，这些东西每晚几乎在同一时间、沿着同一条路径飞过，所以他们大概知道会发生什么。

And incidentally, these things always came over the same path in it roughly the same time every night, so they knew about what was going on.

他们设好了这条基线，用对讲机联系，还自制了一些测量角度的装置，然后试着去测量。

They set up this baseline and got each in with two way radios and some homemade, you you might call them field lights or measuring, angle measuring devices and try to get an

好的。

Okay.

鲁佩尔特指出的一个问题是，当物体离得足够近，按理说应该能听到飞机引擎、螺旋桨或喷气发动机的声音时，如果一片寂静，这本身就是一个很有意义的报告特征。

So one thing Ruppelt pointed out is silence can be a meaningful reported characteristic when an object appears close enough that an aircraft engine propeller or jet would normally, be audible.

他对此谈了很多，也谈到了由此产生的污名化问题。

And he talked a lot about that, and he talked about the stigma that was created.

实际上，他在书里也提到了这一点。

And, actually, he mentioned that in his, book also.

但你知道，蓝皮书计划收到的报告，都是目击者愿意冒着风险才提交的。

But, you know, Blue Book received only the reports that witnesses were willing to risk making.

所以这也是一个变化很大的方面。

So that's another thing that, you know, has much changed

从那时起。

since then.

什么都没变。

Nothing has changed.

飞行员仍然觉得被压制，因为他们还是觉得这会影响他们的职业生涯。

Pilots still feel stifled because they still feel it'll affect their career.

再说，你知道，官方的总数是多少？

And again, you know, what what is the official total?

因为……

Because it...

军事和商业飞行员目击过的所有事件的总数，很多人都不愿意站出来。

The complete number of events ever witnessed by military and commercial aviators, a lot of them don't want to come forward.

我是说，这都过去多少年了？

And I mean, how many years later is this?

现在是2026年，他们仍然面临同样的报告问题，同样的污名，人们试图为他们建立官方报告渠道，但在这方面进展不大。

It's 2026, and they still face the same problems reporting, the same stigma, and people would try to create official channels for them to report, and not a lot has happened in that area.

我知道。

I know.

而且挺有意思的。

And it's funny.

而且他说的那些，我知道，像鲁佩特，他描述的正是我们今天面临的同样的体制压力。

And what he spoke about, I know, like, Ruppelt, what he was describing was the same institutional pressure that we face today.

那是在1952年。

This was in 1952.

还有一点我觉得值得注意，他提到，你知道，一个证人可以可信但仍然出错，因为他总是力求分析公正。

And something else I think is worth noting is he mentioned, you know, a witness can be credible and still be mistaken because he was always trying to be fair in his analysis.

而鲁佩特的方法，在我看来，是把可信度当作一个因素，然后将报告与天气、天文、飞机活动、雷达以及其他证据进行比较。

And Ruppelt's method, it seemed to me, was to treat credibility as one factor then compare the report with weather, astronomy, aircraft movements, radar, and, other evidence.

而且，你知道，就像我们提到的，飞行员害怕被停飞，这是很有价值的口头证据，说明为什么一些看似确凿的事件可能永远不会进入官方档案。

And, you know, like we've mentioned, the pilot's fear of being grounded is valuable oral evidence of why apparently strong incidents might never enter the official files.

嗯……

Well...

而且，你知道，飞行员，还有一点，他们的训练让他们有经验判断飞机行为，比如相对运动、高度和距离。

And, you know, pilots, the other thing, their training gives them experience judging aircraft behavior, things like relative motion, altitude, and distance.

而且，再说一次，当你面对这些物体时，飞行员的安全仍然是个大问题。

And, again, it's still a big deal, pilot safety, when you're dealing with these objects.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我简直无法想象飞行员脑子里在想什么。

I can't even imagine what's going through a pilot's mind.

太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

然后，你知道，再听我们刚才播放的那段，这里有个我在其他节目里肯定提过的问题，那就是，如果一些最有资格的目击者认为报告事件可能会损害他们的职业生涯，那么任何官方的统计研究还能有多可靠呢？

And then, you know, again, listening to this segment that we just played, here is something which I have brought up on other shows for sure, and it is, you know, how reliable can any official statistical study be if some of the best qualified witnesses believe that reporting an event could damage their careers.

嗯，那你就是……

Well, then you're...

那你连一个横截面都得不到。

And you're not even getting a cross section then.

你知道，你只能得到那些同意谈论这件事的人，对吧？

You know, you're just getting the people who have agreed to speak about it?

是的，我从UFO Talker那里知道的。

Well, I I know just from UFO Talker Yep.

过去四季里，给我发邮件的人可不少。

The amount of people that have sent me emails over the last four seasons.

我总是问他们，你有没有在任何地方报告过这件事？

And I always ask them, did you ever report this anywhere?

我得说，几乎没有人……

And I'm gonna say almost nobody re...

做过正式报告，他们告诉我，这是他们第一次告诉家人以外的人。

Made an official report, like, telling me was the first time they've ever told anybody, outside of their family.

但尤其是……

But especially...

我是说，普通人可能会犹豫要不要报告，但飞行员可能会想，他们真的可能被停飞或者丢掉工作。

I mean, the average person might think twice about reporting, but, I mean, pilots could think they could really be grounded or lose their jobs.

没错。

That's right.

没错。

That's right.

而且这……

And that's...

这直接关系到收入，我觉得这才是最重要的因素。

That affects the pocketbook, and that is the most important factor, I would say.

这是第三部分，我们把它命名为“从报告到仪器”。

This is section three, and we've titled it from reports to instruments.

我觉得这是整个演讲中最科学的部分。

And I think this is the most scientific portion of the talk.

他讲了很多关于雷达的局限性，还有怎么用相机去拍那些雷达信号出现时的画面之类的。

He discusses a lot of, radar limitations, getting cameras to take pictures of, you know, when you get a radar blip, that kind of thing.

那我们现在就来听听这部分。

So let's listen to that now.

现在我们……

Now we...

让我看看。

Let's see.

我们得出了几个一般性的结论，或者说，我不应该说我们得出了什么结论。

We've reached several general, or I shouldn't say reached any conclusions.

关于所有的目击事件，我们收集到的所有目击事件，有两三个普遍的事实。

There's two or three general facts about all of the sightings, overall collection of sightings that we have.

其中之一是，在我们记录良好的目击事件中，无论这些物体飞得多低，从来没有报告过任何噪音。

One of them is that on our good sightings there's absolutely no noise ever reported connected with these objects no matter how low they are.

它们可能被报告为天空中的小点，或者飞得相当低，但绝对没有噪音报告。

They may be reported as just being specks in the sky or down fairly low and there's absolutely no noise reported.

而且我们再次强调，我们不知道有任何一种推进系统能做到这一点。

And once again, we don't know of any kind of a propulsion system that would do that.

我的意思是，据我们所知，任何推进系统都会伴随某种噪音。

I mean, that we know of has some type of noise connected with it.

另一件事是，我们有很多雷达回波，但从来没有将目击事件与雷达回波联系起来。

Another thing is we've had a lot of radar returns, but we have never had a visual sighting linked up with the radar return.

我们有两三次这样的报告，但一直没能把它们弄清楚，也没有得到足够的事实来确认他们看到的是同一个东西。

We've had two or three reports of that, but we've never been able to pin them down enough and get enough facts about them to make sure that they were both looking at the same thing.

他们在霍洛曼那边有一个项目。

They had had a project on this down at Holloman.

他们对此非常感兴趣，因为他们一直在看到它，相比之下……

They've been very much interested in it because they've been seeing it compared...

从比较的角度来看，在霍洛曼和白沙地区周围，这类东西出现得更多。

On a comparative basis, more of these things around the Holloman and White Sands area.

他们确实用同步经纬仪追踪到了那里的某个东西。

They did track something down there with their synotheodolites.

他们不知道那是什么，可能是一个缓慢移动的白天中等速度的物体。

They don't know what what it is, it it could possibly be a a slow moving daylight medium.

我不是天文学家，但我知道这种东西是存在的。

Now I'm not an astronomer, but I understand such things exist.

他们拍到了它的照片，也成功追踪到了它。

They they got pictures of it, they were able to track it.

不过，他们看到了大约五个……

However, they saw about five...

嗯，我觉得是同时看到了五六个这样的东西。

Well, I think it's five or six of these things at once.

就在他们发射导弹之后，他们的扫描同步仪正对着天空。

It was right after they launched a missile, and they had their scanning synucleotides pointed up in the air.

他们看到导弹后面跟着四五个东西，然后他们接到命令去追踪那些东西，不再管导弹了。

And they saw these four or five things right behind a missile, and they got the word to swing over on those and forget the missile.

他们有点怀疑是不是所有站点都追踪到了同一个物体。

And they're a little bit doubtful as to whether or not all stations track the same object.

所以他们的读数有点偏差，但他们确实得出了大约15万英尺的高度读数。

So consequently, their readings are a little bit off, but they did come up with an altitude reading of about 150,000 feet.

速度非常快。

The speed was very great.

他们得出的速度大约是每小时3500英里。

They came up with a speed of about 3,500 miles an hour.

但再说一次，他们不会证实这一点，因为他们不确定这些读数是在什么条件下得出的。

But again, they won't back that up because they aren't they aren't sure of the conditions that these readings were made under.

那是我们唯一一次真正接近获得关于这些东西的准确数据。

That's the only time we've ever come really close to getting any any accurate data on these things.

我还想再说一遍，那可能是一颗白天的流星。

And I wanted to say again that it could be that it was a meteor in a daytime.

现在在那个区域还有另一种现象或物体在飘荡，那就是这些绿色火球。

Now they have another type of phenomena or object or something floating around down that area, and that's these green fireballs.

我不知道你有没有在报纸上看到过相关报道，但阿尔伯克基新墨西哥大学有一位林肯·拉帕兹博士，他对这些绿色火球大肆渲染。

I don't know if you've been reading about that in the paper, but there's a doctor Lincoln LaPaz down in Albuquerque at University of New Mexico who's been making a big deal out of these green fireballs.

它们看起来像流星，但不同的是，它们的轨迹是明显平坦的。

They appear to be similar to a meteor, except that they have a definite flat trajectory.

据报道，它们呈明亮的蓝绿色，而且不会爆炸。

They're reported to be a brilliant greenish blue color, and they they don't explode.

我的意思是，它们看起来非常低……

I mean, they appear to be very low...

大概有满月的三分之一或四分之一大小，而且飞得很低，然后就那样熄灭了。

About a third or a fourth the size of a full moon, and they're very low, and they just go out like that.

它们不会爆炸。

They don't explode.

现在博士对这个现象的理论是，如果这是一颗正常的流星，按照这些物体的体积，应该会产生巨大的爆炸。

Now doctor theory on this thing is that if it's a normal meteor, there should be a terrific explosion because of the size of these things.

这说明它们在大气层中飞得很低，而且当它们飞过时应该会有巨大的爆炸……

It indicates that they're down low in the atmosphere, and there should be a terrific explosion when they go...

当它们下降到足够低的高度时就会爆炸。

When they get down low enough to explode.

这是……

It's...

再说一次，我们不知道它们是什么。

Again, we don't know what they are.

我的意思是，它们确实存在。

I mean, they actually exist.

这些毫无疑问。

There's no doubt about them.

我是说，这不是谁的想象，因为有很多人报告过……

I mean, it's not anybody's imagination because they've been reported by...

嗯，拉帕兹博士自己就见过一个，而且我们有一些非常好的报告，它们都遵循同样的路径。

Well, doctor Lapaz himself has has seen one, and and we've had some very fine reports, and they all follow the same path.

有一条明显的平直轨迹，横跨……

There's a definite flat trajectory right across the...

嗯，就是贴着地球表面。

Well, to the Earth's surface.

它们消失时没有爆炸，而且发出明亮的翠绿色光。

They go out with no explosion and they're brilliant bright green.

民航飞行员也见过它们，如果他们迎面遇到或者类似情况，他们会猛地拉起飞机，几乎把所有人都甩出座位，因为他们以为要和这个不管是什么的东西迎头相撞了。

Airline pilots have seen them and maybe if they meet them head on or something like that, they'll rank the airliner up and just about toss everybody out of the seats because they think they're going to have a head on collision with this whatever it may be.

现在剑桥实验室已经研究了两年，他们完全没有得出任何关于这可能是什么的结论。

Now Cambridge Labs have been working on that for two years, they came up with no conclusions whatsoever as to what there might be.

所以我的理解是，我们要重新接手这件事，看看能不能想出点什么头绪来。

So I understand that we're going to take it over again and see if we can possibly come up with some idea.

我们已经和……

We've talked to...

嗯，卡普兰博士的想法是，它们来自俄罗斯。

Well, doctor Kaplan's ideas that they come from Russia.

但他说他们用的是某种自毁导弹，那种……

But he said that they're using some kind of a self destruction missile that...

而且他们正瞄准洛斯阿拉莫斯。

And they're they're zeroing in on Los Alamos.

这故事倒是挺有意思的。

Now that's a a good story.

确实听起来很刺激，也有这种可能性。

I mean, it sounds really exciting, there's a possibility.

我们也不能说不可能，因为我们根本不知道那是什么。

I mean, we can't say that it isn't because we don't know what it is.

我们和博士谈过了。

We've talked to Doctor.

关于他的课题，我们和卡普兰博士谈了不少。

Kaplan quite a bit on his subject.

可能你们在加州大学认识他。

Probably probably know him from the University of California.

他认为那要么是一种我们不太熟悉的新流星，要么是和极光有关的现象。

He thinks that they're either some kind of possibly a new meteor that we are not familiar with or some phenomena that's related to the aurora.

他声称能在实验室里复制出这种颜色，而我……

He claims that he can duplicate this color in his lab, and I...

我不太确定他具体是怎么做到的。

I'm not sure of just exactly how he does it.

我觉得他用了……

I believe he uses...

哦，我也不清楚。

Oh, I don't know.