OpenAI的数学数据泄露如何促使加密货币重新审视其密码学：不安之钱

然后他们可能会说，哦，嘿，各位，我们得先把你们的比特币都收走，然后再给你们解决椭圆曲线密码学之类的问题，对吧？

And and they're gonna be like, oh, hey guys, like, we're just gonna secure all of your Bitcoin first before we like start giving you, you know, solutions to like elliptic curve cryptography and and what have you, right?

还有其他一堆乱七八糟的东西，对吧？

And a bunch of other shit, right?

我肯定他们得先做这些……

I'm sure they'd have to do to...

然后才能……

Before they could like...

他们不能直接说，这是所有问题的解决方案，因为那样社会会崩溃的，对吧？

They couldn't just be like, here's the trove of all of the solutions to the things because society would would blow up, right?

不幸的是，降落在地球上的外星人其实也挺蠢的，而且被人类控制着。

Unfortunately, the aliens that have landed on our planet are also like pretty retarded, and they're like owned by humans.

所以这对我们来说是最糟糕的情况。

And so this is like the worst case scenario for us.

就是说，这里没有任何流程。

Like, it's there's no process here.

比如说那些外星人，你希望他们不是第一次来……

Like, the aliens, you know, you would hope that those aliens, like, is not the first...

想象一下，这是他们发现的第一颗星球。

Imagine it's the first planet that they've found.

那他们肯定会搞砸，而且会搞得特别搞笑。

Like, they would fuck it up, like, hilariously.

他们会有各种想法，想着怎么处理这件事。

Like, they'd have, like, all these ideas of how they're gonna do it.

如果我们是他们到达的第一千颗星球，那情况就会……

If we're, like, the thousandth planet they've arrived at, it would be...

他们肯定有经验了。

They would know.

他们有自己的一套流程。

They have a process.

他们就会说，哎呀，天哪。

They're like, oh, man.

还记得第三十个星球吗？

Remember, like, the thirtieth planet?

他们互相扔核弹，就因为他们告诉那些人说他们的神是假的，或者发生了别的什么破事。

They nuked each other because they told them that their gods weren't real or whatever the fuck happened.

他们还没想出最高指导原则呢，你懂吧？

They haven't come up with the prime directive yet, you know?

没错。

Exactly.

所以……

And so...

对。

Exactly.

所以……

So...

但不幸的是，我们遇到的不是这种情况。

But unfortunately, that's not the scenario we're in.

我们发明的外星人，他们根本不知道自己在对我们做什么。

The aliens we invented, and they have no idea what they're doing to us.

他们只是说，嘿，有人让我把这个证明正式化，我已经完成了。

They're just being like, hey, I was told to formalize this proof, and I have done it.

给你。

Here you go.

他们也不知道该怎么处理它。

Don't even know what to do with it either.

就像，这就是……

Like, that's the...

这不会有好结果的。

It's not gonna end well.

太疯狂了，兄弟。

It's crazy, man.

所以关于椭圆曲线，它属于加密领域。

So with elliptic curve, it is crypto.

但是回答泰的问题，这也涉及HTTPS，还有所有互联网流量。

But to answer Tay's question, it's also HTTPS and, like, all Internet traffic.

我就是这个意思。

That's what I mean.

当外星人降落时，他们可以接入网络，立刻看到所有人的互联网流量。

When the aliens landed, they could plug in and just, like, see everyone's Internet traffic immediately.

对。

Yep.

所以这是我从很久以前就一直跟人解释的事情……

So this is, thing that that I've always explained to people since...

差不多十年了。

For, like, a decade now.

当他们问，你怎么知道密码学足够强大或者足够安全？

When they're like, but how do you know that the cryptography is stronger or strong enough?

答案就是，我们不一定永远知道。

Or, you know, the answer is, well, we don't necessarily like forever know.

不过，如果它被破解了，那

However, if it breaks There

会有迹象的。

will signs.

会有迹象，但最先被破解的不会是那些Tochies币。

There will be signs, but also the first thing to break is not going to be the Tochies coins.

而是地球上最有权势的人去攻击第二有权势的人。

It's going to be like the most powerful people on the planet hacking the second most powerful people on the planet.

也就是说，可能是一个政府攻击另一个政府，或者攻击世界其他地方之类的。

Meaning like, probably one government hacking another government or the rest of the world or whatever.

没错。

That's right.

因为密码学支撑着世界上运行的很多技术。

Because cryptography underlies a huge amount of the technology that the world operates on.

顺便说一下，包括传统金融体系，我觉得这正好回答了你泰勒的问题，这确实是真的，虽然我对此的概率估计比较低，但就算它是真的吧。

Including by the way, the traditional financial system, which I think to your question Taylor, this turns out to be true, which again, I'd put relatively low odds on it, let's say it is.

如果这真的发生了，那我觉得就像……

If it turns out to be true, then I think similar to the way...

就像最近这些模型突然在网络安全方面变得特别厉害一样，对吧，比如找漏洞。

Similar to what happened when these models suddenly got very good at cyber attacks recently, right, like finding bugs.

两周前，老兄。

I mean, two weeks ago, man.

两周前。

Two weeks ago.

对，就像昨晚。

Like, yeah, like last night.

不好意思。

Excuse me.

两个都有。

Like both.

所以我觉得开源项目受冲击最大也最早，因为源代码就在那儿，开放、无许可，你可以扫描它找漏洞，对吧？

So I think open source got hit hardest and first because the source code is there and it's open and it's permissionless and you can scan it and find bugs, right?

但从长远来看，我觉得开源会是最安全的，对吧？

But then in the long run, I think open source is gonna be the most secure, right?

因为同样的原因，它是无许可的、自下而上的，有很多人盯着它。

Because for the same reasons, like it's a permissionless bottom up, like tons of eyes on it.

每个人都会把那些资源投入到这些开源代码库上，而闭源的专有东西是做不到这一点的。

Everybody's going to apply those resources to these open source code bases and in a way that a closed source proprietary thing can't afford to do.

所以我觉得，如果真的发生类似的事情，传统金融体系长期来看可能是最不适合放钱的地方。

And so I think you could actually see something play out similarly if it turned out to be something like this with the traditional financial system in the long run being the worst place to have your money, actually.

加密网络会先被攻击，但之后它们能迅速反应、加固、修复漏洞、给节点软件打补丁、做回滚，以及处理所有那些混乱又糟糕的事情。

Crypto networks get hit first, but then they can react and fortify and fix the bugs and patch node software and do rollbacks and all the messy, terrible things that would happen.

但这些传统机构，建立在……的金融体系

But then these legacy institutions, financial system that is built on

它们不需要那么强的反应能力。

They don't have be as reactive.

它们根本没有能力去反应。

They won't have the ability react.

他们绝对做不到。

They absolutely won't.

同意。

Agreed.

我有个想法，最先掌握这种神奇力量、能够用任何技术做任何事情的人，是那些不需要更多钱的人。

I saw a hold that the people that first gain access to this magical power of being able to basically do anything with any technology is going to be the those people don't need more money.

他们就像能凭空印钱一样。

Like they can just print money out of thin air.

所以他们不会去偷中本聪的币，更别说乔·鲁宾的币了。

So they're not they're not going to be stealing Satoshi's coins, let alone Joe Lubin's coins.

应该不会从那种特别明显的事情开始，你想想看。

It wouldn't start with something that's like extremely obvious, you would assume.

他们可能会做一些……

They would be doing know They're

会做什么呢……

gonna be doing what...

就像真正的权力，地缘政治那种，影响全世界的那种。

Like, real power, like, geopolitical, like, people of the world type shit.

对，是的。

There's Yeah.

就像，针对你说的

Like, to your

那个点，如果OpenAI已经搞明白了，对吧，它早就已经进入政府的机密部门了，比如用于网络安全。

point, if OpenAI has figured this out, right, it's already been, moved into classified sections of the government, like it's being used for cybersecurity.

我觉得对加密货币来说，更大的担忧是，这给了我们一个行动窗口。

I think the bigger concern for crypto, that gives us a window to act.

而且我觉得如果……

And I think if if the...

如果这些传言有任何真实性，再说一次，我认为它们成真的概率相对较低。

If there's anything to these rumors, and, again, I give them relatively low probability of being true.

但如果真有传言说OpenAI在跟以太坊基金会协调什么的，我们很快就会看到一些事情发生，从而知道真相。

But if there's anything to the rumors that, like, OpenAI is coordinating with the EF or whatever, like, we'll see things happening in pretty short order that tell us.

因为真正的风险，跟所有AI相关的事情一样，就是中国的模型也不会落后太多。

Because the real risk is, as with all the AI stuff, is that the Chinese models are not far behind.

在这种情况下，首先，他们的模型是开放权重的，但同时也存在对抗性的一面。

And in that case, you do have, first of all, they're open weights, but there's also an adversarial part to it.

所以，你懂的，你可能只有几个月的时间。

So that is you know, you have maybe some number of months.

如果OpenAI能用他们最前沿的模型做到这一点，那么再过几个月，中国的模型也能做到。

If OpenAI was able to do this with their, you know, cutting edge frontier model, then you have some number of months before a Chinese model is gonna be able to do it.

所以，是的。

So that's Yeah.

如果这真的发生的话，这就是时间窗口。

That's like the clock if this were to actually be the case.

同意。

Agreed.

同意。

Agreed.

我得说，这至少非常有意思。

I I have to say that at least this is very interesting.

通常我们在节目里聊黑客攻击，都是讲技术栈上层的事，比如不，

Usually, we're talking about hacks on this show, it's a few up on the stack where it's like No.

我们进入了某个系统。

We're into like into some system.

有人偷了……

Somebody stole...

现在我们聊的是数学被破解？

Now we're talking about like math breaking?

那这就很有意思了，对吧？

Then this is gonna be interesting, know?

确实。

It is.

确实。

It is.

而且，这真的很疯狂。

Also So like it's it's wild.

十年前，我跟别人解释你的私钥为什么安全，是因为某某原因。

A decade ago when I would explain to people like your private key is secure because of x y z.

那时候的说法是，要暴力破解它，你得消耗掉……

The saying is that like, in order to brute force it, you have to like consume

他们以前说的是宇宙热寂的时候。

more They used to say the eighth death of the universe.

从没说二零二七年、二零二……

Never saying twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty

八年？

eight?

哎呀。

Oops.

顺便说一句，我们可能都活不到那时候。

Which by the way, like we might not make it there.

我们可能撑不到2027年了。

We might not make it to 2027.

所以……

So...

就是

It's just

想想都觉得不可思议，我整个……

wild to like think about like my entire...

基本上我整个职业生涯都在说，对，绝对安全，绝对。

Basically my entire career has been like, yeah, totally safe for totally.

很多。

A lot.

经历了很多。

Been a lot.

你一直在撒谎。

You've been lying.

宇宙中的能量密度。

The density of energy in the universe.

然后就是

Then it's

就像，好吧，不错。

like, okay, cool.

其实，也许不是。

Actually, maybe not.

关于那个。

About that.

我确实觉得值得强调一下贾斯汀在推文中说的一部分内容，就是别慌，别急着做傻事。

I mean, I do think it's worth highlighting a part of what Justin said in his tweet, which is like, don't panic and rush and do something stupid.

平均...

You know, the average...

你更有可能因为急着转移所有冷钱包而搞砸，导致资金损失，而不是很快被GPU矿场偷走，对吧？

You're much more likely to lose funds because you go to rotate all your cold and screw something up than you are to like have it stolen by a GPU farm anytime soon, right?

所以，普通的持有者，甚至那些比较厉害的持有者，就算你是大户，也别慌，别去做那些比这件事更容易给你带来麻烦的事情。

So, the average holder out there, even the above average holder out there, like even if you're a whale, like don't panic and do something that's gonna be much more likely to cause you a problem than this.

是的。

Yes.

我同意。

I agree.

我觉得今天这个提醒很到位。

I think that's I think that's a fair call out for today.

就今天来说。

For today.

时间……

The time...

就像，时间在滴答作响。

Like, the the clock is ticking here.

就像，时间快不够了。

Like, time is time is running out.

对我来说，最吓人的可能是那个数学数据大放送。

Like, I mean, the thing that was maybe the the most scary to me about the, like, math dump.

我不知道该怎么形容他们经历的那个过程。

I don't know what better term to to give is that the description of the process that they went through.

比如那个埃尔德什问题，他们花了1000万美元。

Like the Erdos problem, they spent $10,000,000 on.

这个，他们只给了某一个模型。

This, they gave it to like one model.

就是一个模型，一次会话。

Like one model in one session.

看起来不像是用1000万美元的计算量去暴力破解这个问题。

It doesn't seem like this was like a brute forcing of like running you know $10,000,000 of compute to solve this problem.

他们就是把它给了最新的那个模型。

They just like gave it to the whatever the latest.

你知道，这挺有意思的，因为模型的表现时好时坏，这点我们很清楚。

And you know it's kind of it's very interesting because models are spiky and we know that.

而且你知道，很容易忘记两年前有一段时间，它们连二加二都算不对。

And you know, it's easy to forget that there was a period of time like two years ago where they couldn't add like two plus two.

是的。

Yes.

比如你问一个模型二加二等于多少？

Like you asked a model like what is two plus two?

它会给出看似合理的答案，比如七。

And it would come up with plausible answers like seven.

就在那个范围附近，对吧？

Like within the area, right?

但答案并不正确。

But they were not correct.

而且你知道，它不会说八万亿之类的，对吧？

And and you know, it didn't say like 80,000,000,000,000, right?

但就是不对。

But like it was it was not right.

而且它连很简单的数学题都会做错，人们出一些稍微有点绕的数学题，它错得就更离谱了。

And it would get like very trivial math problems wrong, and people would like, you know, pose slightly tricky math problems and they would get them like even more hilariously wrong.

然后大家就说，看吧，它们就是笨蛋。

And they were like, see, look they're idiots.

它们什么都不懂，对吧？

They have no idea, right?

那是两年前的事了，对吧？

And that was two years ago, right?

有意思的是，模型的能力其实反映了让模型变得更聪明这种进化压力。

And and what's interesting is the the skill set of models, you know, does kind of reflect the evolutionary pressure of like making smarter models.

它们非常擅长抓取数据。

They're really good at scraping data.

而抓取数据并不需要天才级别的智力。

And scraping data is like not like, you know, doesn't take doesn't take genius level intelligence.

它需要一些蛮力，还有一点小技巧，来绕过那些试图阻止你抓取他们页面数据的人设置的各种障碍。

It takes like some brute force and you know, some trickiness to get around you know, whatever things that people are trying to stop you from stealing all their data by scraping their pages.

但他们在那个方面特别厉害。

But they're like super good at that.

你要是让他们去抓取一个网站，他们能把那个网站抓得干干净净。

If you ask them to scrape a website, like they will scrape the shit out of it.

快得你根本想象不到，对吧？

Like faster than you can imagine, right?

他们特别擅长工程和写代码，这比解难题要简单多了，对吧？

They're really good at engineering, at writing code, which is more trivial than like solving hard math problems, right?

但现在奇怪的是，随着他们的智能水平提升，他们突然变得特别擅长数学，就像经历了一个突飞猛进的阶段。

But now, weirdly, as they've like stepped up this scale of intelligence, They've all of a sudden gone through this like spiky thing where they're really good at math.

你知道，我们在工程领域也看到了这种情况。以前，好的工程师会说，看，它六个月前犯了个愚蠢的错误。现在，最顶尖的工程师会说，我……

And you know, we saw this play out with engineering where you know, really good engineers are like, oh look at the dumb mistake that it made six months ago, and now like the best engineers are like, I...

这……

This is...

我们完蛋了。

Like we're done.

我们不再干这个了。

We're not doing this anymore.

所以你知道，我的意思是，我其实……

So you know, I mean I was I was actually...

昨晚我参加的那个活动，Eli也在，就是那个搞Stocknet、Stockware、Zcash出名的Eli。

Eli was at the event that I was at last night from Stocknet, stockware, Zcash fame.

他说，我以前就是干这个的，现在这行当已经没了。

And he was like, I used to be one of those guys that did this thing, and now it's not a thing anymore.

他说的不是编程，是数学。

And he wasn't talking about coding, he was talking about math.

太疯狂了。

Crazy.

是那种巧妙的数学把它破解了。

It's clever math that's breaking it.

我觉得我这种普通脑子理解的就是，这里头有层级，而ECDSA就是被这种巧妙的数学给破解了。

I feel like my smooth brain take on this is like there's levels here, and ECDSA gets cracked by this clever math.

但是还有像哈希函数和哈希签名这些更难的东西，然后还有量子计算之类的。

But then you have, like, hash functions and hash signing that are harder, and then you have, like, quantum computing and all of that stuff.

这算是往下几层了。

This is, a couple layers down.

虽然听起来吓人，但巧妙的数学只破解了第一层，不是第二层和第三层。

Even though it sounds scary, like, clever math only breaks the first level, not the second and third level.

所以这里面有些东西没那么吓人，但还是挺吓人、挺有意思的。

So there there's something there that's like less scary but still scary and interesting.

咱们别……

I mean, let's not for...

别忘了，对吧？

Let's not forget, right?

就像我们……

Like, you know, we...

不到六个月前，人们还在说，哦，这些东西一年前，他们连git提交都搞不定。

It was it was less than six months ago where people were like, oh, these things, you know, like a year ago, they couldn't like fucking do a git commit.

现在我们已经到了这个地步，你可以给一个聪明的模型一个开源代码库，它能在二十四小时内把代码从Go语言转换成Rust。

We're at the point now where you can give a clever model an open source code base, and it will transcribe the code base from Go into Rust in like twenty four hours.

完美地。

Perfectly.

你是说这些领域会被攻克？

You're saying that the realms will be climbed

我的意思是，它们在这些事情上会越来越擅长。

Like, they tend to get better at stuff is all I'm saying.

就是，我也不确定。

Like, I don't know.

我不确定。

I don't know.

我同意这一点。

I agree with that.

我已经不再做预测了。

I mean, I've stopped making predictions.

我……

I...

关于它会往哪个方向发展，因为……嗯。

About where it'll go because it says Mhmm.

就是说，好像……好像不太顺利。

Like, it doesn't doesn't seem seem to work out that well.

那里……

I mean, there...

所以我对一些数学内容的理解是，很多都像是某种计算性的或者暴力搜索式的对解空间的探索。

So my understanding of some of the math stuff is that a lot of it is sort of like a kind of a computational or a brute force exploration of solution spaces.

据我所知，我觉得——学数学的可以纠正我——目前模型产出的东西，还没有哪个人类无法审查……

I don't think as far as I know, math people check me on this, that anything that's been produced by the models yet is such that a human can't review...

专家数学家无法审查并理解它。

An expert mathematician can't review it and understand it.

换句话说，模型还没有到那种程度，它们解决问题的方式人类还看不懂，对吧？

In other words, it's not as if the models are at the point where they're solving problems in a way that's incomprehensible to human beings yet, right?

我们只是拥有我们根本无法理解的魔法技术。

Where we just have magic technology that we literally are incapable of understanding.

但我觉得Kain你的观点很好，我们之前说，六个月前模型还做不到这些，结果它们一下子就超过了。

But I think your point, Kain, is a really good one that we were saying, well, the models can't do this six months ago, and they blew by that.

所以再说一次，我已经不再做预测了。

So again, I've stopped making predictions.

我不知道。

I don't know.

这太疯狂了。

It's crazy.

我们正处于

We're in

疯狂的时代。

crazy times.

这确实是……

It is an...

有个有趣的问题，就是有没有可能……

It's an interesting question of like, is it possible for a...

你知道，先不管模型。

Know, ignore models.

就像，真正的外星人。

Like like genuinely aliens.

想象一下，他们是超级智能的外星人，因为某种原因比我们聪明一千倍，对吧？

Imagine they're super intelligent aliens that are you know, for some reason a thousand times smarter than us, right?

那他们的数学我们会不会完全看不懂，对吧？

Would their math be incomprehensible to us, right?

或者说，数学是不是有一种可理解性，只要足够聪明的人，任何数学问题，一旦我们跨过某个智能门槛，所有数学对我们来说都是可以理解的。

Or like is there a comprehensibility to math that a smart human, any math thing, like we are past some intelligence horizon where like all math will be scrutable to us.

要么我们就会知道答案。

Either we'll find out.

马上就会知道了。

About to find out.

我跟你说，接下来六个月我们就能搞清楚这到底是不是真的。

I'm telling you, we're gonna find out in the next six months, like, whether or not that's true.

那肯定挺有意思的。

So that'll be fun.

大家坐稳扶好。

Hold on to your butts.

五亿四千万美元。

$540,000,000.

今年上半年，每周都有这么多集中流动性闲置着。

That's how much concentrated liquidity sat idle in a given week the first half of this year.

如果你好奇的话，这大概占了 DeFi 总锁仓量的 30%。

About 30% of the DeFi TVL, if you're wondering.

这是由 One Inch 委托 Doon Research 提供的数据。

That's according to Doon Research commissioned by one inch.

不过，这个问题是有解决方案的。

But there's a solution.

1inch Aqua 是一个新的共享流动性平台。

One inch Aqua is the new shared liquidity platform.

它让流动性提供者可以用同一笔代币余额支持多个仓位，而且在交易发生前，代币一直留在他们的钱包里。

It lets LPs back multiple positions with the same token balance and keep their tokens in their wallet till a swap comes.

这有什么好处呢？

Why does that help?

因为流动性提供者不需要把代币分散到各个仓位里。

Because LPs don't have to split their tokens across positions.

他们可以用全部余额覆盖更多的市场情况和交易对。

They can cover more market conditions and pairs with their full balance.

这意味着在更深的流动性上会有更多的交易活动。

That means more activity across deeper liquidity.

去 1inch.com/aqua 看看它是怎么运作的吧。

See how it works at 1inch.com/aqua.

记住，提供流动性是有风险的，费用也不保证能拿到。

Remember that providing liquidity carries risk, and fees aren't guaranteed.

如果你喜欢这个节目，我们网络里还有一个你应该听的节目。

If you like this show, there's another one from our network you should be listening to.

《Bits and Bips》是我们每周两次的市场节目。

Bits and Bips is our twice weekly market show.

周一，Ram Alawwalia、Austin Campbell 和 Chris Perkins 会聊加密货币和宏观经济交汇的话题。

On Mondays, Ram Alawwalia, Austin Campbell, and Chris Perkins chat about where crypto and macro collide.

它很犀利，节奏快，而且有自己的频道。

It's sharp, it's fast, and it has its own channel.

搜索 Bits 加号 Bips，然后订阅。

Search Bits plus sign Bips and subscribe.

好的。

Alright.

我们回来了。

We are back.

上周我们聊过 NEAR Intents 被黑的事。

So we talked about this last week, the NEAR Intents hack.

在这段时间里，黑客把钱退了回来。

In the intervening time, the hackers sent their money back.

这种事偶尔会发生。

Which, you know, you see this happen occasionally.

他们发了一条消息，Aurora的Alex说，我们已经认出你了，然后钱就退回来了。

You know, they post a message, you know, Alex from from Aurora said, we've identified you sir, and then match with Monahan back.

有意思的是，每次发生这种事，显然不是朝鲜干的，因为他们根本不在乎。

Now, you know, the interesting thing about that is that whenever this happens, like it's obviously not North Korea because they wouldn't care.

所以这说明可能不是国家级别的黑客。

So, you know, it means it's some probably not nation state level actor.

就是几个普通人。

It's it's just some dudes.

我不知道。

I don't know.

你觉得呢？

What's your

你对这件事怎么看？

What's your take on this one day?

嗯，好吧。

Well, okay.

所以……

So the...

其中一个有趣的地方是，攻击者确实向……

One of the interesting things was that the the attacker actually sent some dust to to the the...

向Lazarus，那个Ronin地址，那个臭名昭著的Ronin地址，发送了一些粉尘交易，这和当年Oiler黑客做的是同一件事。

To Lazarus, the Ronin address, the the infamous Ronin address, Which is the same thing that the oiler hacker did back in the day.

这已经差不多三年了。

It's been like three years now.

不过，确实有一类黑客觉得自己很聪明。

But yeah, there's like a certain demographic of hackers who think they're clever.

他们觉得，大家都会以为我是朝鲜的。

And are like, everyone's gonna think I'm North Korea.

然后他们把资金转到Ronin地址，结果立刻就被抓了，钱又全退回来了。

And then they send the money to the Ronin address and then they immediately get caught and send all the money back.

这事在Euler身上发生过，现在NEAR也遇到了。

This happened with Euler and now it's happened with NEAR.

真不知道该怎么看这事儿。

Don't know what to make of it.

不过我觉得有意思的是，Euler团队和NEAR团队感觉风格不太一样。

I think it's also interesting though, because I feel like the Euler team and the NEAR team are just sort of cut from a different cloth a bit.

他们被黑了，第一反应就是，走，把钱追回来。

They get hacked and they're like, let's go get our money back.

他们眼里就只有这一条路。

That's the only path that they see.

我也不太懂。

I don't know.

挺疯狂的。

It's wild.

我很想听听这个故事。

I would love to hear the story.

如果有人知道这个故事，或者可能是NEAR团队的人，请跟我们分享一下其中的秘密。

If someone knows the story or maybe the NEAR team, please let us all in on the secret on

在节目背后。

the back of show.

这很有趣。

It's funny.

就像之前Oracle被黑的时候，我们直接停掉了相关服务，让那个黑客没法把钱转走。

Like, when we had the the Oracle hack, like, we'd shut down the the things so the guy couldn't get the money out.

不过，我当时跟他们说得非常明确。

But, like, I was pretty clear with them.

我说我会把你揪出来。

Like, I will hunt you down.

你想玩这个游戏就尽管玩，但我是真的会顺着网线去抓你。

Like, you can you can play this game as long as you want, but like, I will actually physically hunt you down.

但他好像并不领情。

And like, he didn't seem to appreciate that.

我觉得，如果你是一个有实体的存在，在这个世界上。

Know, I think if you're if I like, and you know, you're a physical incorporated body in the world.

你并不是找不到的。

Like, you're not like, you know, you're not unfindable.

每个人都能被找到。

Everyone can be found.

而且，如果你不是国家级的行动者，只是两个在南加州闲逛的家伙，我就不点名了，那你肯定能被找到。

And and you know, if you're not a nation state actor, if you're just two guys who are you know hanging out in Southern California or something, not naming any names, then you can be found.

所以，我觉得有些团队就是那种“我们会找到你”的。

Can be And so you know, like I think that there are teams that are like, we will find you.

而且确实有人擅长找人。

And there's people that can find people.

世界上就是有这种人，他们的工作就是干这个。

Like, there are people in the world who that's their job.

而且只要钱给得够多，比如四百万美元，哪怕金额远低于这个数，人们也会把你标记出来。

And if you make the money worth enough, like $4,000,000, like people will fucking flag you for a lot less than $4,000,000.

相信我。

Trust me.

所以，确实如此。

So, yeah.

就像那些专门去追踪的团队一样，这其实挺有意思的，对吧？

It's just like, you know, the teams that go, I mean, and this is this is the funny thing, right?

因为太容易了……

Because it's so easy....

有一件事，凯恩。

A thing, Kain.

他们就像是不去行动，只是写篇长文说：把钱退给我们，不然我们就查你的财务账户，让执法部门来追你……

It's like they don't go, they like write a big post and they're like, you give us the money back, we're gonna get your finance account and the law enforcement's gonna come after your...

真的就是那种

Like, it's such

深入探讨。

a deep dive.

你看到了。

You see it.

他们就像，有时候可信，有时候不可信。

They're just like the like sometimes it's credible and sometimes not credible.

就像……

Like...

有些东西是真的。

There's something really real.

比如Alex可能在AxiML上。

Like Alex could be on AxiML.

他说，我甚至懒得发Unchained消息。

He's like, I'm not even gonna bother with an Unchained message.

知道这货在盯着我的推特。

Know this bitch is watching my Twitter.

我知道。

I know.

就是说，我们已经认出你了，先生。

Like, we've identified you, sir.

就是，这完全是另一种语气。

Like, it just like it's a completely different tone.

确实。

It is.

感觉不像是在演戏。

It doesn't feel like there's any LARPing with it.

然后呢，那个人马上就全额退款了。

And then yeah, the guy is like immediately like sends all the money back.

顺便说一句，他也没有悬赏金。

By the way, he also, 0% bounty.

就是这样，百分之百。

Like that's how it's 100%.

说真的，你干嘛还要给这帮人发赏金？

Like why are you paying fucking bounty to these guys?

直接炸了他们。对。

Nuke them Yeah.

就像用无人机直接往他们家里扔炸弹一样。

From Like fucking like UAV straight into their house.

没开玩笑。

Not kidding.

不是。

No.

大家别在黑客攻击之后还想着拿赏金。

Don't get bounty after you hack something, guys.

这个行业真的就是那样。

Like, this industry really Literally.

你搞错了。

You made a mistake.

你犯了个大错。

You made a big mistake.

所以，怎么说呢，我也不太清楚。

So, like, I don't know.

就是觉得好玩。

It's just fun.

很多时候，团队会被黑客攻击。

Like, you know, there's so many times where where teams get hacked.

这种事以前特别常见，对吧？

Like this this especially used to happen in the olden days, right?

你知道的，一个项目做得不好或者怎么样，然后就被黑了。

Like you know, a project that was like doing poorly or whatever and it gets hacked.

大家就会说，哦，这是内部人干的。

And people would be like, oh it's an inside job.

但我觉得不全是内部人干的，因为确实有人会被黑，你可以看看链上的取证，就能看出这不是团队干的，这是某个人的作案手法，对吧，就是那种以前干过这种事的人。

And you know, I don't think they were all inside jobs because people do definitely get hacked and you know, you can look at the like on chain kind of forensics and go, this wasn't the team, like this this is an MO, right, of someone who who's you know, done this before or whatever.

但是很多私钥泄露的情况，你一看就会觉得，这也太巧了吧，是不是？

Know, but like a lot of the private key leaks, you're like, oh, this is very fucking convenient, isn't it?

然后他们就说要组织搜索队去追那些人，到处找，但其实根本就是你们自己干的，你们把人给害了。

And then it's like, you know, we're mounting a search party to go after the guys, and they're like searching around, and it's like, no, you did, like, you killed them.

你们在说什么呢？

Like, what are you talking about?

所以，是的。

Like, so yeah.

所以我觉得有些团队你就是不能去惹。

So I I just I think I think there there are certain teams that you just don't fuck with.

NEAR就是其中之一。

And NEAR is one of them.

千万别惹那些人。

Do not fuck with those guys.

比如，别去黑他们。

Like, don't hack them.

对你来说不会有好下场的。

It's not gonna end well for you.

显然。

Clearly.

显然。

Clearly.

好的。

Okay.

然后呢……

Then so...

说到不能惹的人，ZachXBT。

Speaking of people not to fuck with, ZachXBT.

ZachXBT去卧底了。

ZachXBT went undercover.

这太厉害了。

This is amazing.

我特别喜欢这个故事。

I like I love the story.

泰，给我们讲讲这个吧，因为，好吧。

Tay, walk us through this because Okay.

我觉得你比我们更了解这件事。

I think you have you have a bit more insight into it.

嗯，而且我也认识……

Well, and I've also, I've known...

我的意思是，每当扎克发一个帖子，就能看到完整的……

Mean, whenever Zach does a thread, get the full...

我能一次性读完整个帖子，完整地了解整个故事，那种体验很完整。

I experience get the full experience of reading and absorbing the thread and the full story in one go.

但当时这些行动发生的时候，我其实知道不少。

But I was aware of a lot of these efforts as they were happening.

这真是个疯狂的故事。

And it's just a wild story.

好的。

Okay.

所以基本上，在BuyBit被黑之后，甚至在那之前，但BuyBit那次，完全是另一个级别。

So basically after the BuyBit hack and even before the BuyBit hack, but the BuyBit hack, it was just of a different level.

我们总能看到，我也在节目里说过，那些吵吵闹闹的家伙抱怨他们的资金出了问题，抱怨他们的兑换要等多久。

We would always see, and I've talked about this on the show, the guys, the loud guys bitching about their funds being like fucked up, bitching about like, how long is my swap going to take?

当资金被冻结时，他们就会出来闹。

When they get frozen, they would show up with that sort of stuff.

我要提醒大家，如果有人在哪里大吵大闹，他们很可能是个资金流浪者。

And I remind everyone like if there's someone like making a big scene somewhere, like they're probably a money wanderer.

就是这么回事。

Like it's that consistent.

我们一直看到这种情况。

We had been seeing this.

然后……

And so...

但后来扎克就说，行，咱们得搞清楚这帮人到底是怎么运作的。

But then Zach was like, alright, let's figure out how the fuck these guys operate.

而且他比任何人都更深入地去查了。

And went way harder than anyone else had ever considered.

于是扎克就和其中一个人成了朋友。

So Zach became friends with one of these guys.

那个人叫吉米·格林。

His name is Jimmy Green.

他是为朝鲜洗钱的中国洗钱者。

He's a Chinese money launderer for DPRK.

他基本上就和这个人交上了朋友。

He basically became friends with him.

他还多次进行卧底行动，去获取他的地址，基本上完全掌握了这些操作的来龙去脉。

He also did like a full undercover operation multiple times to get his addresses, basically fully get the trails and how these operations work.

他掌握的情报数量和级别，简直让人难以置信。

The amount of intel and the level of intel is absolutely it's just insane.

我们现在对洗钱网络的了解真是让人大开眼界。

The insight that we now have into the laundry networks is wild.

大家都得去读一下那个帖子，因为细节太多了。

Everyone just has to read the thread because there's so many details.

比如有一会儿他们在聊早餐，聊喝咖啡。

Like at one point they're talking about breakfast, they're talking about drinking coffee.

吉米开始瘦了。

Jimmy is starting to lose weight.

但这真是件疯狂的事。

But it's just a wild thing.

但还有一件事也让我大开眼界，我觉得有这种……

But one thing that also just kind of opened my eyes to was I think there's this...

我不知道，就是有种感觉，你知道朝鲜，他们把钱交出去洗。

I don't know, there's a sense that you have DPRK and you know that they're handing off the money to be laundered.

他们在四五个月里洗了超过十亿美元。

It's over a billion dollars that they laundered in four or five months.

你知道那些资金交接正在进行。

You know that there's handoffs happening.

这个故事以及这些对话和其他发生的对话揭示出，洗钱的人对他们到底在干什么门儿清。

What this story and these conversations and other conversations that have happened reveal is like the money launderers, they know exactly what the fuck they're doing.

他们简直毫无羞耻心。

Like they are completely shameless.

完全不知廉耻。

Completely shameless.

他们还会这么做，他们会把行业里的术语当成自己的口头禅。

And they will again, they will use the industry's language as their own.

所以他们就会说，你这不是……

So they'll be like you're not...

要是他们的互换交易没跑通，你就不是去中心化的，你就是个坏人。

If their swap isn't going through, you're not decentralized, you evil person.

简直就像他们是最大的比特币原教旨主义者一样。

It's like they're the biggest Bitcoin Maxis.

这想想有点吓人。

And it's a bit scary to think about.

想想他们基本上算是把行业自己的语言给收编了，然后一直用它来完成他们的最终目标，也就是从社会上偷走并洗白数十亿美元，这确实有点吓人。

It's just a bit scary to consider that they basically in a sense co opted the industry's own language and consistently then use it to complete their end goal, which is to steal and launder literally billions of dollars from society.

然后另一件疯狂的事情是，就是……

And then the other wild thing is like, just...

他就像，对，金正恩今天放了50个比特币。

He's like, yeah, Kim Jong Un released 50 Bitcoin today.

就像，我今天很高兴洗钱。

Like I'm happy money launder today.

而且他完全不知羞耻。

And he's completely shameless.

太疯狂了。

It's wild.

真是疯了。

It's crazy.

太疯狂了。

It's wild.

太疯狂了。

It's wild.

但确实，扎克真是豁出去了，搞到这一切，真是疯狂到极点的局面。

But yeah, Zach just like going really balls to the wall and getting all this is just a wild, wild situation.

我想，他说了什么？

I think, what did he say?

比如40万美元，你能拿到所有不同的地址和所有不同的追踪线索之类的。

Like $400,000 You get all the different addresses and all the different trails and stuff.

他自己的钱。

His his own money.

他投入的35万？

350 that he put in?

真是胆大包天。

Like insane balls.

这真是自闭症到了惊人的程度。

It's a it's an amazing level of autism.

这很难……

It's tough to...

别惹扎克。

Do not fuck with Zach.

别惹扎克。

Do not fuck with Zach.

就像扎克，对。

Like Zach, Yeah.

有意思的是，早期我和他关系还挺好的。

You know, it's it's funny because I had I had like a a pretty good relationship with him in in the early days.

比如有几次他问我事情，我都会帮忙什么的。

Like, you know, you a couple times like ask me stuff and I would help out or whatever.

而且我觉得，如果我现在给他发私信，他应该还是会回复的。

And like, I think if I DM'd him now, he would still respond.

但有几次我给他发消息，是因为有人说，嘿，你能帮我联系上Zach吗？

But there are a couple of times I sent him messages about things that people were like, hey, can you put me in touch with Zach?

然后他就……

And like he just...

他一度竖起了一道墙，觉得每个人都在利用他。

He put up this wall at one point where he's like, everyone's trying to exploit me.

每个人都想让他帮忙做事。

Everyone's trying to get me to do stuff for them.

没人愿意支持任何东西，诸如此类。

No one wants to, you know, support anything, blah blah blah.

他真的对人们那种索取无度的态度感到失望。

Like he really soured on like how extractive, you know, people were.

就像他们……

Like, you know, they were...

如果你想跟他们混在一起，就得先帮他们洗点钱，对吧。

If wanna hang out with them, you just gotta launder some money for the Yeah.

韩国的。

Korean.

所以……

So...

他们会马上来跟你喝咖啡。

They'll come have coffee with you right away.

没错。

Exactly.

所以我在这儿正试着减点肥。

So I'm trying to lose some weight over here.

所以，对。

So so, yeah.

就像，我我我……

Like, I I I...

这真的挺有意思的。

It's it's just interesting.

我觉得他在这个圈子里真的是个很特别的人。

Like, I I feel like, you know, he's such a unique person in the space.

而且你知道，像那些迷因币啊，还有各种奇怪的事情，比如有人给他发迷因币，他就直接抛售之类的。

And you know, like there's stuff with like meme coins and like weird shit where like people send him meme coins and he dumps them and stuff.

就是有很多奇怪的事，但他多年来一直是很多事情的焦点，所以你知道，他好像……

Like there's a bunch of like weird things, but like he's just at the epicenter of so many things over the years that that you know, he seems to have like...

他好像正在摆脱那种愤世嫉俗的状态，又开始无私地做事了，这感觉挺好的。

He seems to be coming out of that like very cynical mode and that he's like back doing things like altruistically again, which feels good.

我觉得他有一段时间觉得每个人都在利用他的技能，你知道，就是那种‘哦，你遇到什么不好的事了’。

Like I think he had like a bit of a period where he just felt like everyone was exploiting him for his skills to you know, oh something bad happened to you.

然后你就会出现在他家门口，说：‘扎克，帮帮我。’

And then you would turn up on his doorstep and be like, help me Zach.

他就会说：‘我凭什么帮你？’

And he's like, why the fuck should I help you?

你自己都不帮自己。

You didn't even help yourself.

我跟你说过要这么做。

Like I told you to do this.

我是在帮你，你们这些傻瓜却一直在我门口乞求。

Like, you know, like, you know, I'm I'm trying to help and you idiots just keep like begging at my door.

这真是……

It was...

有点……

It's kinda...

就是很奇怪……

It's just a weird...

我不知道你是不是这么想的，Tay，但就是……

I don't know if that's your impression, Tay, but like, it

就是……

just...

我的意思是，

I mean,

看起来像是……

it seems like...

我觉得每个人……

I think every...

就像我自己也经历过一段心路历程，处理过这类事情。

Like, I mean, I've gone through my own journey processing with like this sort of stuff.

我以前在ICO时期和ICO之后那段时间，真的非常愤世嫉俗。

I used to be really bitter in like the ICO days and the post ICO days.

我当时会特别怨恨，因为……

I would be so bitter that...

所以当我运营Mew的时候，对吧？

So when I was running Mew, right?

那时候我们简直就是在乞讨捐款。

It was like we're literally begging for donations.

我还在做着一份正经工作。

Still had a real job.

当时我还有客户在跟我合作。

I still had clients that I was working for at the time.

然后我就看着周围这些人，用我们的产品赚了1000万、2000万、5000万。

And then I was just watching all these people around me make like 10,000,000, 20,000,000, 50,000,000 with our product.

而且他们还不止是厚脸皮。

And then they wouldn't even have just the audacity.

他们甚至直接把用户推给我们，让我们来处理支持。

Like, they would just send their users to us for support.

我同意。

I agree.

比如，他们的ICO出了问题。

Like, oh, something went wrong with their ICO.

就像，我

Like, I

会分头去处理。

would split to take.

然后就像……

And it just like...

就是会……

It would just...

那种感觉真的在一点点侵蚀我，特别阴暗。

It just ate away at me in a really dark way.

我不得不面对现实，因为我在想，等等，我们为什么不干脆卖身呢？

And I had to sort of come to terms because I was like, wait, why don't we sell out?

顺便说一句，很多人当时都劝我们卖身。

And a lot of people by the way told us to sell out.

他们说，你应该向每个ICO收取几百万美元的代币费用。

They're like, you should be charging each of these ICOs like millions of dollars in tokens.

他们想上架，那就收他们的钱。

And like, they want to be listed, like charge them.

我当时想，对，但我一直觉得，我不想为代币工作。

And I was like, yeah, but I don't I was always like, don't want to work for the tokens.

我想工作。

I want to work.

我不想为那些烂人工作。

I don't want to work for the pieces of shit.

我想为人们工作。

I want to work for the people.

我们最后搞定了。

We ended up figuring it out.

显然我的生活过得还不错，但我觉得……

Obviously like my life is like fine and great, but like it's it's I think that...

有一段时间，对吧，你就像盯着深渊，心里想：这到底是怎么回事？

There was a period, right, where like you're like staring into the abyss and you're like, what the fuck is going on here?

感觉就像，是的，我懂你的意思。

Like it just feels like, yeah, I I I know what you mean.

你觉得自己被利用了。

You feel taken advantage of.

而且你还会觉得，怎么说呢，虽然我不想这么说，但就像那个梗一样，你身边的人都赚得盆满钵满，就你一个人没赚到。

You also are like I mean, I hate to say it, but like the meme, like everyone around you is getting filthy rich except for you.

有很多天我都在想，我觉得我现在应该已经很有钱了吧，朋友们。

There are a lot of days where I was like, I feel like I should be rich right now guys.

赶紧换个人来干这活吧。

Like get someone else out here.

而且我觉得，就是过着一种相对普通的生活。

And just the, I think like also just like having a relatively normal existence.

但身边却都是那种，我们说的可是两千万、五千万、一个亿美金的人，这种生活真的挺疯狂的。

But being surrounded by people that have like, that we're literally, we're talking about like $20.50, $100,000,000 is a wild existence to live.

我也不知道。

And I don't know.

我觉得，那么多钱加上那种被人占便宜的感觉，或者觉得自己应该得到更多之类的想法，真的会让人陷入低谷。

I think that the combination of that much money plus the idea that you're being taken advantage of or that you deserve more or something, it can really put you in a dark place.

我觉得扎克的经历和我的不太一样，但我觉得也有相似之处，就是，对，就像大家说的，而且我到现在还会这样，当我……

I think Zach's experience is different than mine, but I think that there are similarities in terms of like, yeah and it's just like, guys make, And I mean, I still do it when I...

当人们被黑客攻击的时候。

When people get hacked.

你会想，抱歉。

You're like, sorry.

你有……

You have...

你怎么这么蠢？

Like, how are you so stupid?

你有两亿美元可以损失。

You have $200,000,000 to lose.

你怎么能蠢成这样？

How the fuck are you so stupid?

我真是搞不定这些事，各位。

I can't go shit together, guys.

没错。

Exactly.

你能不能他妈的用个硬件钱包啊？

Can you use a fucking hardware wallet, please?

就是……

Like...

这很痛苦，而且会有内疚感，还有……

And it's painful and there's, like, guilt and there's...

你不想，就是……

You don't wanna, like...

你真的不想去指责受害者。

You really don't want to insult the victim.

但有时候你会想，天哪，如果我有两亿美元，我肯定会买个六十美元的Ledger钱包，然后好好用。

But, like, sometimes you're like, man, if I had $200,000,000, like I would buy a fucking $60 ledger and I would use it.

搞什么鬼？

What the fuck?

就是说，为什么你不能……你不该遭这个罪的。

Like, why can't, you know, like you don't deserve this.