美联储理事遭解职，特朗普扩大国民警卫队部署，阿布雷戈·加西亚再度被拘留

特朗普总统想要解雇一位美联储理事。他的一位政治任命者发现了针对她的指控。

President Trump wants to fire a Federal Reserve governor. One of his political appointees found an allegation against her.

这位女士，我不明白她怎么能负责为我们国家设定利率。

This lady, I don't understand how she can be in charge of setting interest rates for our country.

丽莎·库克表示特朗普无法解雇她，那么法律是怎么规定的？我是说，马丁内斯，

Lisa Cook says Trump can't fire her, so what's the law say? I mean, Martinez,

我是史蒂夫·因斯基普，这里是NPR新闻的《Up First》。华盛顿特区市长为无现金保释辩护，允许嫌疑人不交保释金获释。

that's Steve Inskeep, and this is Up First from NPR News. The mayor of Washington DC defends cashless bail, letting out suspects without posting bond.

坦白说，我认为这比任何系统都更有效。无现金保释在该地区并非新现象。

I frankly think that that has worked better than any system. Cashless bail is not a new phenomenon in the district.

那么为什么总统要求该地区改变政策，他能说服国会为他做到这一点吗？

So why is the president demanding that the district change the policy, and can he persuade congress to do that for him?

此外，一名法官阻止联邦政府再次驱逐基尔马尔·阿布雷戈·加西亚。她希望他在被送往乌干达之前能有一次听证会。请继续关注我们。我们为您带来开启一天所需的新闻。

Also, a judge stopped federal government from deporting Kilmar Arbrego Garcia again. She wants him to have a hearing before he's sent to Uganda. Stay with us. We've got the news you need to start your day.

大家好，我是NPR音乐的罗宾·希尔顿，为所有喜爱Tiny Desk的人带来重大消息。我们将赠送一次前往华盛顿特区亲临Tiny Desk音乐会的旅行，包含酒店和机票。了解更多并免费参与，请访问npr.org/tinydeskgiveaway。无需购买或捐款即可参与，参与者需年满18岁。

Hey. It's Robin Hilton from NPR Music with some big news for everyone who loves the Tiny Desk. We're giving away a trip to DC to see a Tiny Desk concert in person, hotel and flights included. Learn more and enter for free at npr.org/tinydeskgiveaway. No purchase or donation required for entry must be 18 years or older to enter.

参与页面和官方规则的链接可在npr.org/tinydeskgiveaway找到。

Links to the entry page and official rules can be found at npr.org/tinydeskgiveaway.

我是埃里克·格拉斯。在《美国生活》节目中，我们喜欢那些能给你带来惊喜的故事。比如，想象一下发现一个新爱好并意识到

This is Eric Glass. On This American Life, we like stories that surprise you. For instance, imagine finding a new hobby and realizing

要想按照大师们的方式正确从事这项爱好，你很可能需要游走法律边缘才能获取所需材料。甚至可能触犯法律。没错，是违反国际法的那种。

To do this hobby right according to the ways of the masters, there's a pretty good chance that you're gonna have to bend the law to get the materials that you need. If not break it. Yeah. To break international laws.

你的人生故事真是精彩绝伦，这就是《美国生活》节目的魅力所在。

Your life stories, really good ones, This American Life.

国会已投票决定取消对公共媒体的联邦资助。那么这对未来意味着什么？我们正在探索前进的道路。唯一可以确定的是，公共媒体的未来取决于您。请加入其他听众的行列，通过NPR Plus支持公共广播。

Congress has voted to eliminate federal funding for public media. So what does that mean for the future? We are figuring out the way forward. One thing we do know is that the future for public media depends on you. Join other listeners who've stepped up to support public radio with NPR Plus.

立即注册即可享受海量专属福利。请访问plus.npr.org。

Sign up and get the ton of great perks. Go to plus.npr.org.

特朗普总统已着手解雇联邦储备委员会的一名理事成员。

President Trump has moved to fire a member of the Federal Reserve governing board.

这是特朗普试图加强对中央银行控制的最新升级行动。美联储本应独立于白宫的政治压力，因此特朗普此举可能面临法律挑战。

It's the latest escalation in Trump's effort to exert more control over the central bank. Now the Fed is designed to be insulated from political pressure from the White House, so Trump's move may face a legal challenge.

现在请到我们节目的是NPR首席经济记者斯科特·霍斯利。斯科特，早上好。

NPR chief economics correspondent Scott Horsely joins us once again. Scott, good morning.

早上好，史蒂夫。

Good morning, Steve.

好的。总统在社交媒体上发布了关于美联储理事丽莎·库克的声明。究竟发生了什么？

Okay. The president made this announcement in a social media post, regarding Fed governor Lisa Cook. What's going on?

表面上看这是对特朗普盟友比尔·普尔特的指控作出的反应。普尔特负责监管抵押贷款巨头房利美和房地美，他指控库克在2021年加入美联储之前，在抵押贷款申请中作出虚假陈述。普尔特称库克在相隔数周内为两处不同州府的房产申请住房贷款时，均声称每处都是其主要居所——这通常能获得更优惠的贷款条件。若属实，这确实令人侧目。普尔特上周告诉CNBC，他认为这足以让库克从美联储离职。

This is ostensibly a reaction to claims made by Trump ally Bill Pulte, who oversees mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Poultie accused Cook of making false statements on a mortgage application back in 2021 before she joined the Federal Reserve. Poultie says Cook applied for home loans on two different properties weeks apart in two different states and said that each one would be her primary residence, which would typically result in better loan terms. Now if true, that certainly raises eyebrows. Pulte told CNBC last week he thought it was enough to remove Cook from her post at the Federal Reserve.

如果这都不算理由，我不知道什么才算。我是说，这位女士，我不明白她怎么能负责为我们国家设定利率，而现在她却可能在申请时撒谎以获得更优惠的利率。

I don't know what cause is if that's not cause. I mean, this lady, I don't understand how she can be in charge of setting interest rates for our country, and here she is potentially lying on her applications to get better interest rates.

他用了‘可能’这个词。目前这只是指控，而普尔特对其他特朗普的反对者如加州参议员亚当·希夫、纽约总检察长莱蒂西亚·詹姆斯也提出过类似指控。总统在社交媒体上表示他对库克没有信心，这足以成为撤职的理由。根据法律，中央银行行长只能因故被免职，这是为了保护美联储免受白宫的政治干预。

He says potentially there. So far, this is just an allegation, and Pulte's leveled similar charges at other Trump antagonists like Adam Schiff, the senator from California, Leticia James, the attorney general from New York. The president said in a social media post he does not have confidence in Cook and that that's enough cause to remove her. By law, governors at the central bank can only be removed for cause, which is designed to protect the Fed from political meddling by the White House.

好吧，如果法律是这么规定的，丽莎·库克怎么说？

Well, if that's what the law says, what is Lisa Cook saying?

库克表示总统无权解雇她，并誓言将继续履行美联储理事的职责。她的律师艾比·洛厄尔在一份声明中表示，库克将采取一切必要行动阻止他所谓的这种非法解雇。民主党人正团结在库克周围。库克是由前总统拜登任命的，例如马萨诸塞州参议员伊丽莎白·沃伦，她是负责监督美联储的委员会中的资深民主党人，称特朗普试图撤换库克是独裁式的权力攫取，并表示必须在法庭上推翻这一行为。

Cook says the president has no authority to fire her, and she's vowing to carry out her duties as a fed governor. A statement from her attorney, Abby Lowell, says Cook will take whatever actions are necessary to prevent what he called this illegal firing. Democrats are rallying around. Cook, who was appointed by former president Biden, for instance, Massachusetts senator Elizabeth Warren, who's the top Democrat on the committee that oversees the Fed, called Trump's effort to remove Cook an authoritarian power grab and said it must be overturned in court.

斯科特·霍斯利，我正试图理解背景。最近几天我们看到司法部针对总统不喜欢的人采取行动。我们知道联邦政府的其他部门也有意这样做。联邦通信委员会针对总统不喜欢的媒体组织就是一个例子。在这种情况下，我们有一个住房机构反复出现问题，针对的是总统不喜欢的人，而且他毫不掩饰地希望美联储降低利率。

I'm trying to get the context here, Scott Horsely. We have seen in recent days the Department of Justice go after people the president doesn't like. We know other parts of the federal government have made a point of doing that. The Federal Communications Commission goes to mind targeting media organizations the president doesn't like. In this case, we have a housing agency that has repeatedly come up with issues with, people the president doesn't like, and he's made no secret of the fact that he wants the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates.

这如何与之相关？

How's this fit in?

是的。特朗普确实用大锤砸向了本应保护美联储的屏障。他对美联储主席杰罗姆·鲍威尔非常不满。他因成本超支问题攻击中央银行。如果他成功将库克从董事会中移除，这将为特朗普创造另一个空缺，让他可以任命更可能听命于他的人。

Yeah. Trump has really taken a sledgehammer to the protective barriers that are supposed to insulate the the Fed. He's been very critical of Fed chairman Jerome Powell. He's attacked the central bank over cost overruns. If he succeeds in removing Cook from the board, that would create another vacancy for Trump to fill with someone more likely to do his bidding.

顺便说一句，经济学家几乎一致认为，独立的中央银行比受总统控制的中央银行运作得更好。就在昨天，全美商业经济协会发布了一项关于此的调查。宏观政策展望公司的考特尼·舒伯特谈到了结果。

By the way, economists are virtually unanimous that an independent central bank works better than one that's under the thumb of the president. Just yesterday, the National Association for Business Economics released a survey about this. Courtney Schubert, who's with Macro Policy Perspectives, talked about the results.

约95%的经济学家担心美联储的独立性在未来几年内会受到损害。

Around 95% of economists are concerned about the Federal Reserve's independence being compromised over the next several years.

四分之三的受访经济学家表示，总统不应在设定利率方面扮演任何角色。

And three out of four economists surveyed said the president should play no role in setting interest rates.

斯科特，一如既往感谢你的见解。

Scott, thanks for your insights as always.

不客气。

You're welcome.

这是NPR的斯科特·霍斯利。总统正寻求延长其在华盛顿特区为期数周的军事干预行动。

That's NPR's Scott Horsley. The president is seeking to expand his weeks long military intervention in Washington DC.

是的。他威胁要惩罚该市及全国其他废除现金保释的地区，并希望扩大国民警卫队在治安维护中的角色。

Yeah. He's threatening to punish the city and others around the country for abolishing cash bail, and he's hoping to expand the National Guard's role in policing.

让我们和WAMU资深华盛顿政治记者亚历克斯·科马聊聊这个话题。亚历克斯，早上好。

Let's talk about this with WAMU senior DC politics reporter, Alex Coma. Alex, good morning.

嗨，早上好。

Hey. Good morning.

无现金保释对某些人来说是个新概念。它是如何运作的？为什么总统如此关注它？

Cashless bail is going to be a new concept to some people. So how's it work, and why is the president so focused on it?

没错。基本理念是，如果你被指控犯罪，在审判前被关押时，无需缴纳金钱保释金即可获释。决定权完全在法院或法官手中，由他们评估你是否会对社区构成风险。华盛顿特区自1992年起就废除了现金保释制度。这项改革是因为立法者认识到，旧制度对贫困黑人群体影响尤为严重——他们因无力支付保释金而被迫在审判前长期羁押。

Yeah. Well, the basic idea is that, you know, if you're accused of a crime, you're being held in jail before trial, you don't have to post a money bond in order to get out. The decision is entirely in the hands of the courts or the judges to decide whether you're a risk to community if you be released. And DC hasn't had you know, a cash bail system since 1992. The reform was sort of, you know, made because I think lawmakers recognized that it disproportionately impacted poor black people stuck waiting in jail until their trial because they couldn't afford to pay.

总统为何反对这点？是认为这对待犯罪过于宽容吗？

And the president objects to this. Why? It seems soft on crime?

是的。他声称这会让杀人犯轻易获释，但这种情况极为罕见。去年华盛顿特区审前释放人员中，仅4%被指控暴力犯罪。实际上这项制度并未给特区带来负面影响。研究显示约90%的被告仍会出庭，这正是无现金保释支持者的重要依据。

Yeah. I mean, his claim is that it lets murderers easily walk free, but that's extremely rare. I mean, just four percent of all people here in DC were released before trial were accused of violent crimes last year. So, you know, this is something that has not really had negative consequences for DC. Studies show that something like ninety percent of DC defendants still show up to court, which is a major mark for proponents of cash bail.

在候审期间被重新逮捕的人非常少。这些数据在所有废除该制度的州和城市中都保持一致。

Very few are rearrested while awaiting trial. And and these are numbers that hold across all states and cities that have abolished the system.

那么，当总统表示要改变这项政策，并威胁如果不执行就削减资金时，哥伦比亚特区的民众作何反应？

So how are people in the District of Columbia responding as the president says, I want this policy changed, and we may impose some kind of consequences on your funding if you don't do it.

是的。许多人怀疑他的做法是否合法。就像我们在预算撤销争议中看到的，他能否动用国会已拨款的资金存在很大疑问。当然，国会可以推翻特区过去的法律，但总统不能仅凭一纸行政令就否定它们。特区市长穆丽尔·鲍泽也指出，去年激烈辩论后，特区最近赋予法官更多权限在候审期间拘留嫌疑人，这直接回应了特朗普对暴力犯罪嫌疑人被释放的担忧。

Yeah. Many doubt that what he wants to do is even legal. I mean, as we saw with the rescissions fight, there are real questions whether he can take, you know, money that's been already appropriate by congress. And, of course, congress can overturn DC's past laws here, but the president can't just because he passes an executive order saying he doesn't like them. So DC mayor Muriel Bowser has also observed that the city recently gave judges more leeway to hold people in jail as they await trial after a contentious debate last year, and that speaks directly to Trump's concerns about, you know, are people accused of violent crimes being released?

坦白说，这个制度比任何系统都有效。无现金保释在特区并非新鲜事物。

I frankly think that that has worked better than any system. Cashless bail is not a new phenomenon in the district.

尽管如此，当地领导人仍感到不安，因为特朗普近期频繁干涉特区事务，包括接管警察部门、派遣国民警卫队和其他联邦特工。

You know, still, that being said, you know, local leaders are still on edge here because Trump has been meddling with the city's affairs a lot recently, including season control of the police department, sending in the National Guard, and other federal agents.

他现在还想用国民警卫队做什么？

What more does he wanna do now with the National Guard?

他表示要组建一支专门负责特区公共安全的警卫队特别分队。由于特区不隶属任何州，没有州长管辖，他确实有权这样做。特朗普还计划向其他城市派遣类似资源，以应对所谓的'内乱'。但国民警卫队在美国城市巡逻的权限本就有限。

Yeah. So he says he wants to train a special unit of the guard dedicated to public safety in DC, and he can do that because he does have command of the guard here. DC is in the state, so there's no governor who who'd be in charge of it. Trump also wants to send similar resources to the guard in other cities to assist in responding to, quote, unquote, civil unrest. But the guard is, of course, limited by what it can do to patrol American cities.

部队在遭受攻击时可以还击，但他们没有警察权力，也缺乏协助警方的训练。所以没人清楚这部分计划如何实施。

You know, troops can respond if they're attacked, but they don't have police powers or even really the training to assist police. So, you know, no one is really sure how this part is gonna work.

在总统权限比特区更小的其他城市，这些措施能复制多少？

How much of this can the president replicate in other cities where he would have less direct authority than he might have in Washington DC?

加州的例子很有参考价值。他可以像在洛杉矶那样以紧急状态为借口派遣联邦部队，但最终会遭遇阻碍。像加文·纽森这样的州长有权起诉，案件将在法庭上解决。而特区没有这种制衡机制，这正是他选择在此行动的原因。

Yeah. I think California points the way here. You know, he can claim some sort of emergency pretext as he did in Los Angeles and said in federal troops, but it'll ultimately run into guardrails. You have governors that have standing to sue, such as Gavin Newsom, who did, and, you know, then it can play out in the courts. DC, you don't have the same situation, and I think that shows why he's doing things here.

这座城市始终生活在恐惧之中，担心他会与国会联手，撤销政府在此地有限的自治权。除非有朝一日该市成为州，否则无论总统或执政党如何更迭，这种局面都不会改变。他在其他地区的影响力要小得多，除非国会介入干预。

The city lives in perpetual fear that, you know, he's going to team up with congress to revoke what limited self governance the government does have here. And that situation is gonna remain unchanged regardless of the president or party in power unless the city is someday made a state. He has much less influence in other places unless congress happens to step in.

我们成员电台WAMU的高级华盛顿政治记者亚历克斯·科马，他是全美数百家NPR地方电台中的一员。亚历克斯，非常感谢你。

Senior DC politics reporter Alex Coma of our member station WAMU, one of hundreds of NPR stations in communities across this country. Alex, thanks so much.

能来这里真是太好了。

It was so great to be here.

基尔马尔·阿布雷戈·加西亚已重新被联邦拘留，正等待关于他可能在美国停留多久的裁决。

Kilmar Abrego Garcia is back in federal custody and waiting to find out how long he may remain in The United States.

他曾被错误地驱逐到萨尔瓦多，后返回美国。如今美国政府表示将再次驱逐阿布雷戈·加西亚，但这次目的地是非洲国家乌干达。法官表示暂缓执行。

He was deported by mistake to El Salvador then returned to The US. Now the US government says it will deport Abrego Garcia again, this time, though, to the African nation of Uganda. A judge says not yet.

NPR移民事务记者贾斯敏·加斯特正在跟进报道。贾斯敏，早上好。

NPR's Jasmine Garst covers immigration, and she's covering this story. Jasmine, good morning.

早上好。

Good morning.

我们追踪这个案件已有数月。目前进展如何？

We've been following this case for months now. Where does it stand today?

阿蒂昨天在马里兰州参加了强制性的ICE报到。阿布雷戈·加西亚随即再次被移民局拘留。其律师团队正竭力阻止他被驱逐到乌干达——律师们称这完全是报复性行为。在昨天的听证会上，联邦法官波洛兹尼斯严正警告司法部：在阿布雷戈·加西亚获得法庭抗辩驱逐令的机会前，政府绝对禁止将他移出美国。她要求双方律师最迟今日就加速审理日程达成协议，并表示将秉持司法公正尽快推进。

So Attie entered a mandatory ICE check-in in Maryland yesterday. Abrego Garcia was immediately taken into immigration custody again. And now his attorneys are fighting to stop him from getting deported to Uganda, which his lawyers say is a purely vindictive move. In yesterday's court hearing, federal judge Polozinis gave a stern warning to the Department of Justice until Abrego Garcia has had a chance to challenge the deportation in court, the government is absolutely forbidden from removing him from The US. Now she said she's asked lawyers on both sides to agree on an expedited schedule for his case by today, and she said she would move as fast as is just.

我注意到你引述的法官措辞——'绝对禁止'。从她的立场看，确实有必要如此严厉。这个案件的背景是怎样的？

I'm looking at the wording that you gave us there. Absolutely forbidden, the judge's words. I guess, from her perspective, she would have reason to be stern on this point. What's the background of this case?

阿布雷戈·加西亚的拘留案确实是特朗普政府打击非法移民初期最受瞩目的案件之一。其核心争议在于无证移民应享有的正当程序权利。背景如下：2011年，时年16岁的阿布雷戈·加西亚从萨尔瓦多非法入境美国。

Abrego Garcia's detention was really one of the first high profile immigration cases of the Trump administration's crackdown. And at its center are questions about due process for undocumented immigrants. Some background. Abrego Garcia came from El Salvador to The US illegally in 2011. He was 16 years old.

他声称是为躲避当地帮派的死亡威胁。在美期间他未被判任何罪行。特朗普政府指控他是MS-13黑帮成员，但他多次否认。近期政府又以人口走私罪名起诉，他同样予以否认。

He says he was escaping gang death threats there. Since he came to The US, he has not been convicted of any crimes. The Trump administration has accused him of being a member of the MS thirteen gang, which he has repeatedly denied. More recently, the government has indicted him on charges of human smuggling. He also denies that.

关键点在于：2019年移民法庭裁定，因有充分证据表明他在萨尔瓦多可能遭受帮派迫害，不得将其遣返。

And what's really important here is that in 2019, an immigration court ruled that he cannot be deported back to El Salvador because of a well founded fear of gang persecution there.

那么今年他是如何引起特朗普政府注意的？

And then what is the way that he came to the attention of the Trump administration this year?

特朗普政府曾将他送往萨尔瓦多某臭名昭著的监狱，后承认遣返错误。经多轮法庭交锋，他最终于六月被带回美国，面临2022年田纳西州交通检查中发现的、与之前无关的人口走私新指控。他对所有指控均不认罪。上周在刑事审判前获释后，现再次被拘留。

So the the Trump administration sent him to a notorious prison in El Salvador. They admitted that his removal was a mistake. And after a lot of back and forth in the courts, he was eventually brought back to The US in June to face new unrelated charges of human smuggling, which stemmed from a traffic stop in Tennessee in 2022. He has pleaded not guilty to those charges. He was released from federal custody last week pending the criminal trial, and now he's in detention again.

为厘清法律背景：政府被禁止的是将其遣返至存在人身威胁的萨尔瓦多。但据我们所知，他们完全有权将其遣送至世界任何其他国家，无论是乌干达、哥斯达黎加还是其他地方，对吗？

And and just to to understand the the legal background here, the thing the government was forbidden to do was send him to El Salvador where he faced a threat. So far as we know, they may well have the right to send him anywhere else in the world, Uganda, Costa Rica, any place else. Right?

完全正确。美国与乌干达签有协议，目前这项协议正在法庭上受到质疑。

Absolutely. You know, The US has an agreement with Uganda, and right now, that is what is being challenged in the courts.

感谢NPR的贾斯敏·加西。

NPR's Jasmine Garce. Thanks very much.

非常感谢你，史蒂夫。

Thank you so much, Steve.

以上就是8月26日周二《晨间要闻》的全部内容。我是史蒂夫·因斯基普。我是马丁内斯。

And that's up first for this Tuesday, August 26. I'm Steve Inskeep. And I'm Martinez.

要不要听听NPR的《Consider This》？我们《Up》节目为您带来当天的三大要闻。而我们的《Consider This》团队则采用不同方式，他们深入探讨一则新闻故事及其对您的意义，您可以在不到十五分钟内全面了解。现在就在NPR应用或您获取播客的任何平台收听。

How about listening to Consider This from NPR? We here at Up give you the three big stories of the day. Our Consider This colleagues take a different approach. They dive into a single news story and what it means to you, and you can learn all about it in fewer than fifteen minutes. Listen now on the NPR app or wherever you get podcasts.

今天的《Up First》由Padma Rama、Raphael Nam、Eric Westervelt、Lisa Thompson和HJ Mai编辑。节目由Ziyad Bhutch、Nia Dumas以及今晨导演Manzi Khurana制作。工程支持来自Stacy Abbott，技术总监是Carly Strange。

Today's Up First was edited by Padma Rama, Raphael Nam, Eric Westervelt, Lisa Thompson, and HJ Mai. It was produced by Ziyad Bhutch, Nia Dumas, and Manzi Khurana, who is our director this morning. We get engineering support from Stacy Abbott, and our technical director is Carly Strange.

想听无广告插播的播客吗？亚马逊Prime会员可通过Amazon Music免广告收听《Up First》，您也可以支持NPR的重要新闻报道并获取《Up First Plus》，访问plus.npr.org。网址是plus.npr.org。

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to Up First sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's Vital Journalism and get Up First Plus at plus.npr.org. That's plus.npr.org.

如果你是机器人，这档节目可能不适合你。但如果你是有希望、有梦想、还要付账单的人类，《Life Kit》播客或许正是你所需。每周三次，《Life Kit》为你带来全新解决方案，助你应对大小话题——从如何节省杂货开支到如何在卡拉OK嗨翻全场。你懂的，人类那些事儿。快来收听NPR的《Life Kit》播客。

If you're a robot, this might not be the show for you. But if you're a human with hopes, dreams, and bills to pay, the Life Kit podcast might be just what you need. Three times a week, Life Kit brings you a fresh set of solutions to help you tackle topics big and small, from how to save money on groceries to how to bring the house down at karaoke. You know, human stuff. Listen to the Life Kit podcast from NPR.

Mariel Segarva。

Mariel Segarva.

移民突袭、蒙面ICE特工、'爱国者行动'。我们的播客《here and now anytime》正通过一个州的视角审视特朗普的大规模驱逐议程。

Immigration raids, masked ICE agents, Operation Patriot. Our podcast here and now anytime is looking at Trump's agenda of mass deportation through the eyes of one state.

我要来波士顿了，还会带着地狱同行。

I'm coming to Boston. I'm bringing hell with me.

请收听NPR与WDUR联合制作的播客《here and now anytime》。

Listen to the podcast here and now anytime from NPR and WDUR.