拖欠工资、NBA赌博丑闻、俄罗斯回应

在这次政府停摆期间，超过百万联邦雇员未能领到工资。白宫表示正与预算玩一场扭曲游戏——让部分员工领薪而其他人则被拖欠。我是史蒂夫·英斯基普，与A·马丁内斯共同为您带来NPR晨间新闻。一起NBA赌博丑闻正震动体坛，现役球员和主教练涉案被捕。该案犹如电影剧本，涉及数百万美元、黑手党以及操纵扑克游戏的高科技设备。

More than a million federal workers are missing a paycheck during this government shutdown. The White House says it's playing a game of twister with the budget to keep some workers paid while others go without. I'm Steve Inskeep with A Martinez, and this is Up First from NPR News. An NBA gambling scandal is shaking the sports world with an active player and head coach among those arrested. The case sounds like a movie script, one that involves millions of dollars, the mafia, and high-tech equipment to rig poker games.

美国对俄罗斯两家最大石油公司实施制裁后，俄方作出回应。普京总统称制裁毫无影响，并对与特朗普总统取消会晤一事不屑一顾。这对乌克兰战事意味着什么？请持续关注，我们将为您带来全天候新闻资讯。

And Russia responds after The US placed sanctions on two of the country's largest oil companies. President Putin says they won't have any impact and shrugged off the canceled meeting with president Trump. So what does this mean for the war in Ukraine? Stay with us. We've got all the news you need to start your day.

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我是瑞秋·马丁。若厌倦了寒暄，不妨收听《狂野卡片》播客。我邀请思想领袖畅谈那些众人思索却鲜少讨论的宏大话题。今年秋季将播出梅尔·罗宾斯、马拉拉·优素福扎伊和布芮尼·布朗从悲伤信仰到野心宽恕的深度对谈。通过NPR应用、YouTube或任意播客平台观看收听。

I'm Rachel Martin. If you're tired of small talk, check out the wild card podcast. I invite influential thinkers to open up about the big topics we all think about but rarely talk about. Tune in this fall to hear Mel Robbins, Malala Yousafzai, and Brene Brown talk about everything from grief and God to ambition and forgiveness. Watch or listen on the NPR app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

本周《细思此事》聚焦：他作为美国公民却被ICE拘留三天。

This week on Consider This, ICE detained him for three days, and he's a US citizen.

他们没告知指控罪名，从未说明我被捕。我要求见律师，他们完全置之不理。

They didn't say what I was charged with. They never told me I was being arrested. I asked for a lawyer. They just completely ignore it.

民主党议员宣称将采取的应对措施，兼核查总统关于左翼暴力是否真在激增的言论。本周《细思此事》，请通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听。

What Democratic lawmakers say they will do in response, plus fact checking the president's claims about left wing violence, whether it's truly rising. This week on consider this, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这是政府停摆的第24天，全国范围内近150万联邦工作人员领不到薪水。

It's day 24 of the government shutdown, and across the country, close to a million and a half federal workers are going without pay.

周四，参议院就民主党和共和党提出的联邦雇员薪资法案进行了投票。共和党方案只支付仍在工作的人员薪资，民主党方案则包括停薪留职人员在内的所有人。两项法案均未通过。

On Thursday, the senate voted on democratic and republican bills to pay federal employees. Republicans would have paid the people still working. Democrats would have paid everybody, including those on furlough. Both bills failed.

NPR的安德莉亚·许现在加入我们来讨论此事。安德莉亚，请具体告诉我们哪些人领不到薪水？

NPR's Andrea Hsu joins us now to talk about it. So, Andrea, tell us about who exactly is not getting paid.

是的。这些都是分布在全国各地的政府文职雇员，其中约70万人处于停薪留职状态——既不上班也拿不到工资。还有近同等数量的人虽在岗工作却也领不到薪水。这包括空中交通管制员、社会保障局工作人员，比如在佛罗里达州坦帕基地负责接听+1800热线的蒂阿拉·卡特，她同时还是美国政府雇员联合会的工会代表。

Yeah. So these are civilian employees of the government all over the country, and roughly 700,000 of them are furloughed, meaning they're not working and not getting paid. And close to that many are working, but also not getting paid. This includes, you know, air traffic controllers, also people working at the Social Security Administration, like Tiara Carter. She answers the +1 800 line there from her base in Tampa, Florida, and she's also a union rep for the American Federation of Government Employees.

她表示这次停摆造成了严重的经济打击，不得不申请贷款并从401k养老金账户中提取紧急困难资金。

And she says the shutdown has been a real financial hit. You know, she's had to take out loans and seek out a hardship withdrawal from her four zero one k.

我感觉自己就像在泳池里拼命往上游，每次快到水面时就被重新打回水底。

I kinda feel like I'm in a pool, and I'm trying to swim to the top. But every time I get to the middle, I'm getting knocked back down.

这确实很煎熬。像她这样突然陷入困境的联邦工作人员能获得哪些救助资源？

Oh, it's gotta feel rough. What kind of resources are available to federal workers like her who find themselves suddenly struggling to to try and get by?

在联邦工作人员高度集中的华盛顿特区地区，食品银行一直在向政府雇员分发物资箱。这些活动吸引了数百人排队，队伍甚至绕过了街区。而且，许多联邦工作人员在信用合作社办理银行业务，现在全国各地的信用合作社都提供短期无息贷款，帮助支付房屋贷款或汽车贷款等费用，直到他们下次发薪。信用合作社表示，每天都有更多联邦工作人员联系他们。

Well, here in the DC area where there's a high concentration of federal workers, food banks have been distributing boxes of provisions to government employees. Those events have drawn hundreds of people with lines, you know, stretching around the block. And a, a lot of federal workers do their banking at credit unions, and now these credit unions all over the country are offering short term interest free loans to help with things like house payments or car payments until their next paychecks arrive. And credit unions say they've been hearing from more federal workers every day.

问题是，虽然联邦雇员处境艰难，但Andrea，现在有很多听众可能还没注意到有任何异常或不对劲的地方，对吧？因为政府有些部门仍在运转。那么，人们具体何时会感受到政府停摆的影响呢？

Now here's the thing, I mean, as bad as things are for federal employees, I mean, there are a lot of people listening right now, Andrea, who might not be noticing that there's anything, you know, astray and anything amiss. Right? So and because there are parts of the government that are still functioning. So when exactly might there be an impact of the shutdown that people will feel?

这实际上取决于停摆持续的时间。如果拖延下去，专家表示公众将在社区中感受到经济影响。我就此采访了Shay Akabas，他隶属于华盛顿的智库两党政策中心。

Well, it really depends on how long the shutdown goes on. If it drags on and on, experts say the general public will feel the economic effects in their communities. I spoke with Shay Akabas about this. He's with the Bipartisan Policy Center that's a think tank here in Washington.

并非所有人都已感受到，但它确实正在影响整体经济。而且持续时间越长，人们感受到的连锁反应就会越多。

Not everybody feels it yet, but it's actually affecting the broader economy. And the longer it goes on, the more people will feel the ripple effects.

位于联邦大楼附近的杂货店客流量减少，日托中心的孩子也变少了，因为他们的父母现在被迫休假。类似的情况已经在发生。

Grocery stores that are located near federal buildings are seeing less foot traffic. Daycares are seeing fewer kids because their parents are now furloughed. Things like that are already happening.

不过，确实有些联邦工作人员仍在领工资。他们是谁？这些钱又是从哪里来的？

Okay. There are, though, some federal workers that are getting paid. Who are they, and where is that money coming from?

是的。在任何政府停摆期间，都有继续工作并领取薪水的人，因为他们的工资不来自国会每年需要批准的拨款。退伍军人事务部的大多数人都属于这一类。但这次，特朗普政府还调动了资金，确保其他一些人也能够领到工资。白宫预算主任Russ Folk称这种做法为‘预算扭转’.

Yeah. Well, in any shutdown, there are people who continue working and getting paid because their salaries don't come from the funding that congress has to approve every year. So most everyone at the VA falls into this category. But this time, the Trump administration has also moved money around to ensure that some others are also getting paid. White House budget director Russ Folk called this budgetary twister.

举例来说，上周军方人员确实按时收到了工资。这笔资金来自国防部未使用的研发经费。而本周，负责移民执法的执法人员获得了国土安全部长克里斯蒂·诺姆所称的'超级支票'，其中包含了追溯至10月1日的薪资。他们的工资来源于去年夏季税收与支出法案中批准给国土安全部的资金。但要知道，他们的一些从事后勤支援工作的同事至今仍未领到薪水。

So for example, last week, members of the military did get their paychecks on schedule. That money came from unused research and development funds from the defense department. And this week, law enforcement officers doing immigration enforcement got what Homeland Security secretary Christy Noem called a super check that included pay all the way back to October 1. And their paychecks are coming from money approved for Homeland Security as part of last summer's tax and spending bill. But, you know, some of their colleagues, those serving in support roles, are still not getting paid.

因此在政府停摆期间，联邦雇员中逐渐形成了'有薪族'与'无薪族'的分化，有些情况下他们甚至就在彼此相邻的岗位工作。

So in the shutdown a, increasingly, there are haves and have nots within the federal workforce, and in some cases, they're working right alongside each other.

以上是NPR记者安德莉亚·舒的报道。非常感谢。

That's NPR's Andrea Shu. Thanks a lot.

谢谢。

Thank you.

NBA表示正在配合FBI对非法赌博活动的调查。

The NBA says it's cooperating with the FBI's investigation into illegal gambling.

是的。联邦当局昨日逮捕了30多人，其中包括现役职业球员——迈阿密热火队的特里·罗齐尔，以及现役教练——波特兰开拓者队的昌西·比卢普斯。

Yeah. Federal authorities arrested more than 30 people yesterday. They include an active pro player, Terry Rozier of the Miami Heat, and an active coach, Chauncey Billups of the Portland Trailblazers.

那么这种情况有多普遍？NPR体育记者贝基·沙利文正在连线。贝基，如果只是单个球员涉案就已经是大事了，但这次规模远不止于此。

So how widespread is this? NPR sports correspondent Becky Sullivan is with us. Becky, this would be a big deal if it was just one player, but this is, way more than that.

对，对，对，没错。这不仅仅是一个球员的问题。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's not just one player.

这不仅仅是一支球队的问题。根据起诉书，这起丑闻涉及多支球队的联赛。夏洛特黄蜂队、多伦多猛龙队、洛杉矶湖人队、奥兰多魔术队和波特兰开拓者队的球员或教练，据称都在向赌徒或朋友泄露非公开信息，而这些朋友又转告了赌徒。我认为犯罪团伙和有组织的赌徒显然能接触到NBA球员和教练，这对联盟来说应该是一个严重的问题，因为很明显，即使是那些赚取数百万美元的人也有可能卷入这种事情。我是说，比卢普斯在他名人堂级别的NBA职业生涯中赚了超过1亿美元。

It's not just one team. According to the indictment, the scandal involved leagues from multiple teams. You had players or coaches with the Charlotte Hornets, the Toronto Raptors, the Los Angeles Lakers, the Orlando Magic, and the Portland Trailblazers, all allegedly sharing nonpublic information with gamblers or friends who then told gamblers. And I think the access that crime rings and organized gamblers apparently have to NBA players and coaches should be a serious concern for the league because it's clear that even those who are making millions of dollars are at risk for getting swept up in this stuff. I mean, Billups made more than a $100,000,000 over the course of his hall of fame NBA career.

他作为教练每年能赚几百万美元。罗吉尔今年的合同金额就高达2600万美元。

He makes millions per year as a coach. Rogier, was on a contract to make $26,000,000 this year alone.

是啊，这一切是怎么被曝光的？

Yeah. How how did the all this even come to light?

现代在线赌博公司的运作方式是，有监控服务会追踪各平台的投注，寻找异常模式。以特里·罗吉尔那场比赛为例，那是2023年的一场比赛。他告诉朋友自己会因伤提前退赛，当时这不是公开信息。据称那位朋友将信息卖给了赌徒，然后有组织的赌徒在各种道具投注上总共押了约25万美元，基本上就是在赌罗吉尔的表现会比平时差。

Well, the way that these modern online gambling companies work is that there are these monitoring services that track bets across platforms looking for unusual patterns. And so if you take the Terry Rogier game, for example, this was a game back in 2023. Told a friend that he was going to withdraw early from the game with an injury. That wasn't public information at the time. The friend allegedly sold that information to a gambler and then organized bettors, placed collectively around a quarter million dollars on various prop bets, basically saying, guessing that Rogier would have a worse game than usual.

所以，当25万美元突然涌入一个相对普通球员的‘低于’投注时，显然会触发警报。NBA接到通知后，联盟当时确实进行了调查，并澄清罗吉尔没有不当行为，尽管起诉书声称罗吉尔知道发生了什么，事后还让同谋者到他家清点收益。不过我要说明，罗吉尔的律师否认这些指控，并计划进行抗辩。

And so, obviously, when you have a quarter mill all flooding in on sort of a relatively random players unders, that rings alarm bells. The NBA was notified. The league actually investigated at the time and cleared Rogier of wrongdoing, although the indictment alleges that Rogier knew what was happening and had conspirators come to his home afterward to count their earnings. Rogier's lawyer, I should say, denies this and plans to fight these charges.

昌西·比卢普斯于2024年入选奈史密斯篮球名人堂，他是目前被点名的最知名人物。那么对他的具体指控是什么？

Now Chauncey Billups, was inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame in 2024. He's the highest profile person named so far. So what are the charges against him?

他被指控合谋实施电信欺诈和洗钱。这两项指控实际上都与一项关于地下扑克游戏的起诉有关。起诉书中，检方指控有组织犯罪集团运营这些游戏并利用比卢普斯。他们称利用比卢普斯作为名人吸引受害者，组织者则使用高科技设备——如做过手脚的洗牌机、X光透视扑克桌和特制眼镜——进行作弊赢钱。但关于体育赌博的另一项起诉书中虽未点名比卢普斯，却描述了一名身份特征与比卢普斯完全吻合的未具名共谋者。

Well, he faces account of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and conspiracy to money launder. Both of those are related actually to an indictment about underground poker games. In that indictment, prosecutors alleged that organized crime groups basically run these games and use Billups. They say that they used Billups as a celebrity to sort of lure in victims, and then the organizers used all this high-tech equipment, like rigged shuffling machines and X-ray poker tables and special glasses to cheat and win. But the other indictment that's about sports gambling, Billups is not named there, but there is an unnamed coconspirator described in a way that matches Billups exactly.

在他担任教练期间曾效力联盟的那些年，此人向一名被告泄露了开拓者队计划在对阵芝加哥公牛队时让明星球员休战的机密信息，该被告随后将此信息透露给赌徒，后者成功在该比赛上下注超过10万美元。菲利普斯的律师在给我的声明中否认了所有指控，包括涉及扑克游戏和提供内幕信息的行为，并表示'我们期待在法庭上'

The years he played in the league when he became a coach, that person shared confidential info about how the trailblazers were planning to sit their stars in a game against the Chicago bulls with a defendant who then shared that info with gamblers who then wagered more than a $100,000 on the game successfully. Phillips, you know, his lawyer said in a statement to me, they deny the allegations both related to the poker and providing insider information and said, quote, we look forward to our day

见分晓。

in court.

联盟对此有何反应？

How's the league been reacting to this?

我认为人们都被事态震惊了，大家都在感叹社交媒体让所有人都变得容易联系，加上赌博的广泛合法化，导致球员与赌徒之间持续不断的接触。这是丹佛掘金队后卫布鲁斯·布朗昨天向记者描述的情况。

I mean, I think people are stunned by what's happening, you know, people lamenting that just this mix of sort of social media, everybody's easy to contact, plus widespread legalization of gambling results in this constant contact with gamblers. Here's how Bruce Brown, a guard at the Denver Nuggets, put it to reporters yesterday.

有些比赛里我因为没投进一两个三分球就被骂得狗血淋头。自从体育博彩合法化后，这就是我们面临的现状。只能学着应对，别去想它，比赛后别查看私信。

There's been games where I've been called every name in the book just because I didn't hit a three or two. I mean, I just the state of the game we're in, since sports betting got legal. So, I mean, just kinda deal with it. Stop thinking about it. Don't check your DMs after games.

此外，所有球队都会让总法律顾问在赛季开始前与球员谈话，告知他们哪些行为合法、哪些不合法——显然包括不得对比赛下注、不得向赌徒泄露机密信息。对许多球队来说，这个谈话本周才进行，因此现在爆出这样的新闻显然令人震惊。

Also, every team has their general counsel come talk to players before the season began to tell them what to do, what not to do, what's legal, what's not, and, obviously, no betting on games, no sharing that kind of confidential information with gamblers. For many teams, that talk happened this week, so it's obviously jarring for this news to happen now.

贝基，我知道这件事刚刚发生。但这会促使NBA做出改变吗？

Becky, I know this is, very fresh right now. But will this prompt any change with the NBA?

是的。我是说，现在下结论还为时过早，但如果这都不算重大危险信号，那我不知道什么才算。有现役球员和教练参与其中。坦白说，我认为这对比赛公信力是场灾难。顺便说一句，面临这种问题的可不只是NBA。

Yeah. I mean, it is too soon to tell, but certainly if this isn't a huge red flag, I don't know what is. You had active players, active coaches involved. And frankly, I think that's a disaster for trust in the game. And it's not just the NBA that is dealing with this stuff, by the way.

NCAA上个月禁赛了多名大学篮球运动员，因为他们直接参与自己比赛的赌博或与赌徒合作。美国职棒大联盟正在调查克利夫兰守护者队的两名投手，他们今年夏天涉及可疑投注活动。这些正是各大联盟过去公开反对体育赌博合法化的原因，但如今木已成舟，拥抱赌博能带来巨额利润。

The NCAA banned a handful of d one college basketball players last month because they had gambled directly on their own games or worked with gamblers to do so. Major League Baseball is investigating a pair of pitchers with the Cleveland Guardians who were the subject of suspicious betting activity this summer, and all of this, of course, is why these leagues used to be vocally against legalizing sports gambling, but that ship has now sailed, and there is a lot of money to be made by embracing it.

这是NPR的贝基·沙利文。贝基，谢谢。不客气。我们将从莫斯科视角观察特朗普总统为结束俄乌战争不断变化的努力。

That's NPR's Becky Sullivan. Becky, thanks. You're welcome. We have the view from Moscow of president Trump's shifting efforts to end Russia's war in Ukraine.

近日特朗普总统表示将与俄罗斯领导人普京再次举行峰会，随后又改口拒绝。他声称乌克兰必须向俄罗斯入侵者割让领土，却又对俄实施新制裁。

In recent days, president Trump said he would hold another summit meeting with Russian leader Vladimir Putin, then he said he wouldn't. He has said Ukraine will have to surrender territory to the Russian invaders yet also imposed new sanctions on Russia.

NPR驻莫斯科记者查尔斯·梅恩斯正在俄罗斯首都密切关注事态。查尔斯，让我们先从这些制裁说起——它们似乎标志着特朗普对俄策略的转变。请详细介绍下这些制裁。

NPR's Moscow correspondent Charles Maines is watching all of this from the Russian capital. Charles, so let's start with these, sanctions. They they seem to be a bit of a shift in Trump's approach to Russia. Tell us, more about them.

好的。这些制裁针对俄罗斯两大顶级石油公司——俄罗斯石油公司和卢克石油公司，它们共同占据俄石油出口近半数份额。其重要性在于，这是特朗普首次兑现要让俄罗斯为侵乌战争付出代价的威胁。为何选在现在？众所周知特朗普希望结束这场战争。

Yeah. Sure. These sanctions target two of Russia's, top oil companies, Rosneft and Luke Oil, which jointly make up nearly half of Russian oil exports, and and they're significant because they mark the first time Trump has followed through on threats to make Russia pay a price for its war in Ukraine. So why now? Well, it's no secret Trump wants to see this war end.

我认为这是他宏大使命的一部分，旨在将自己塑造成全球和平缔造者。特朗普对普京在和平协议上的拖延表达了极大不满，最近这次峰会刚达成共识却在几天内就被搁置。原因在于筹备会议的谈判中，俄方表现出零灵活性——而特朗普原以为普京会有所让步，包括接受他提出的沿当前战线冻结冲突的最新提议。这究竟是信号误判还是被摆了一道？

Part of his larger mission, I think, to cast himself as a global peacemaker. You know? And Trump has expressed real frustration with Putin's foot dragging on a peace deal, most recently with this summit meeting agreed to and then tabled in a matter of days. Now the reason is negotiations to set up the meeting showed zero, flexibility from the Russian side, flexibility that Trump thought he had from Putin, including to Trump's latest proposal, which was to freeze the conflict along current battle lines. Now what was this a case of missed signals of being played?

我们无从得知。但特朗普表示，与普京打交道时，表面谈话往往很愉快，但实际交易却毫无进展，于是制裁手段就登场了。

We we just don't know. But Trump said with Putin, he found it was often nice talk, but the actual deal making went nowhere, and so sanctions.

那么查尔斯，俄罗斯对此有何反应？我很难想象他们会感到满意。

And, Charles, what about Russian reaction to all this? Because I can't imagine they're pleased.

确实不满意。不过莫斯科方面对此有些措手不及。局势瞬息万变——峰会构想本身源自普京主动致电特朗普，当时特朗普正准备会见乌克兰总统泽连斯基，商讨提供美国远程武器（你可能听说过的战斧导弹）的可能性。结果特朗普决定不提供导弹，转而要与普京会面，这在莫斯科一度被视为重大胜利——直到化为泡影。

They are not. I think though this took Moscow a bit by surprise. You know, one moment they're up, next they're down. You know, the summit idea itself, came out of a phone call that Putin initiated with Trump, just as Trump was set to meet with Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky y about the possibility of giving US long range weapons, these Tomahawk missiles, you may have heard about. Trump then decides not to give the Tomahawks and said he'll meet with Putin instead, which was seen as a real coup here in Moscow until it wasn't.

突然间，会晤取消，制裁继续。普京昨晚向记者表态称这破坏了美俄关系近期取得的进展，他希望与特朗普的会晤是延期而非取消，但同时也寸步不让。他强调：『任何有自尊的国家或民族，都不会在压力下做出决定。』

You know, suddenly, it's no meeting, no sanctions. Putin addressed the issue last night with reporters saying this undermined a recent progress in restoring relations with The US, that he hoped the meeting with Trump wasn't canceled but postponed, but he also gave no ground. So here he says no self respecting country or no self respecting people ever decides anything under pressure.

好的。查尔斯，你认为这些制裁有可能奏效，并改变普京在结束战争谈判中的盘算吗？

Alright. Now, Charles, is there any way to think that these sanctions might work and might change Vladimir Putin's calculus when it comes to negotiating an end of the war?

目前看来答案似乎是否定的。普京承认制裁造成损害，但坚称不会对俄罗斯经济造成致命打击。确实，石油收入虽占联邦预算很大比重，但还有其他来源。而且俄罗斯在应对制裁方面经验丰富，包括能源领域——亚洲市场就是例证。

Well, for now, the answer would seem to be no. Putin acknowledged these sanctions were harmful, but insisted they were not fatal to the Russian economy. And it's true. You know, oil revenues make up a significant portion of the federal budget, but there are others. And certainly, Russia has a lot of practice with sanctions of Asian, including in the energy sector.

但这可能会让俄罗斯处境非常尴尬，特别是如果中国和印度因担心次级制裁而减少石油进口的话。不过话说回来，特朗普也面临风险。他的前任拜登没有对俄罗斯石油实施制裁是有原因的——他担心这会影响全球市场，当然还有美国消费者。

But this could make things really uncomfortable for Russia, particularly if China and India scale back oil imports out of fear of secondary sanctions, for example. But then again, you know, there are risks for Trump here too. His predecessor, Joe Biden, didn't impose sanctions on Russian oil for a reason. He was afraid of how they might affect global markets and, of course, how they might affect American consumers.

NPR驻莫斯科记者查尔斯·梅恩斯。查尔斯，谢谢。

NPR's Moscow correspondent, Charles Maines. Charles, thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

以上就是10月24日周五的早间新闻。我是E·马丁内斯。

And that's a first for Friday, October 24. I'm E Martinez.

我是史蒂夫·英斯基普。新西兰正在进行一项实验，试图通过消灭所有非本土动物来拯救濒危野生动物。人类应该走多远来弥补自己造成的破坏？

And I'm Steve Inskeep. New Zealand is undergoing an experiment to try to save its endangered wildlife by killing all animals that are not native. How far should people go to reverse the damage people caused?

虽然有点恶心，但这其实是件很有道德的事——因为消灭引发问题的物种很容易，但之后他们就会消灭其他所有物种。

Though it is a bit gross, it's actually quite an ethical thing because it's easy if you kill off something that's causing a problem, and then then they'll kill off everything else.

请收听NPR《Up First》播客中的周日故事栏目。

Listen to the Sunday story right here on NPR's Up First podcast.

本期《Up First》节目由Emily Kopp、Russell Lewis、Kate Bartlett、Mohammed El Vardisi和Martha Ann Overland编辑，由Ziyad Butch、Ben Abrams和Christopher Thomas制作。工程支持由Stacy Abbott提供，技术总监是Carly Strange，执行制片人是Jay Schaylor。请继续关注我们的节目。

Today's episode of Up First was edited by Emily Kopp, Russell Lewis, Kate Bartlett, Mohammed El Vardisi, and Martha Ann Overland. It was produced by Ziyad Butch, Ben Abrams, and Christopher Thomas. We get engineering support from Stacy Abbott. Our technical director is Carly Strange, and our executive producer is Jay Schaylor. Join us again on this feed.

既然你这么说。

If you say so.

想听无广告版播客？亚马逊Prime会员可通过Amazon Music收听《Up First》无赞助版，或通过plus.NPR.org支持NPR重要新闻报道获取《Up First Plus》会员专享内容。

Wanna hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon Prime members can listen to Up First sponsor free through Amazon Music, or you can also support NPR's Vital Journalism and get Up First Plus@plus.NPR.org. That's +.npr.org.

大家好，我是《Fresh Air》主持人Terry Gross。我采访了导演Guillermo del Toro，他谈及对《科学怪人》的毕生痴迷，以及在其新版改编中怪物被永生折磨的故事。

Hi. It's Terry Gross, host of Fresh Air. I interviewed filmmaker Guillermo del Toro about his lifelong obsession with Frankenstein and his new adaptation in which the creature is tormented by eternal life.

我是死亡的狂热信徒，我甘愿为死亡献身。

I'm a huge fan of death. I'm a groupie for death.

你可以在《Fresh Air》播客中找到我的完整访谈。

You can find my interview on the Fresh Air podcast.

在本周《Wild Card》播客中，《实习医生格蕾》和《丑闻》制作人Shonda Rhimes表示她不需要观众喜欢她的剧集。

On this week's wild card podcast, Grey's Anatomy and scandal creator Shonda Rhimes says she doesn't need people to like her shows.

当你相信别人对你的赞美时，你也同样有义务相信那些批评。

When you believe the good things people say about you, you also then are obligated to believe the bad things.

请在NPR应用、YouTube或任何你获取播客的平台观看或收听这场充满变数的对话。

Watch or listen to that wildcard conversation on the NPR app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.