616: Outmoded But Not Vintage

天哪。

Oh, man.

郊区型老爸。

Suburban dad.

哇。

Wow.

郊区型老爸。

Suburban dad.

但其中有一个应用也支持这个功能。

But one of those apps also supports it.

说实话，这功能挺酷的，我也喜欢它存在，不过我的看法跟你差不多。

And, like, it is cool, and I like that it exists, but I I kinda land where you land.

我个人其实用不上这个功能。

Like, I don't personally have a use case for it.

我压根没想过这个功能，也没在照片应用里见过类似的东西。

I hadn't even thought or come across it like this not in the photos app.

我觉得这真是个重大疏漏，尤其是看看谷歌在安卓上长期做的那些事，还有上周他们新发布的内容，明显是往情境智能的方向走。

That seems like a big oversight to me, especially when you look at what Google does in Android and what they've been doing for a long time, but then the new stuff they announced last week, very much like contextual intelligence.

比如说，我相册里有一张照片。

Like, I have this photo in my photo library.

照片里有什么？

What is in it?

对吧？

Right?

这方面他们确实有一些功能。

And there's some of that stuff.

能识别宠物和植物，但跟完整的视觉智能系统还不是一回事。

It knows about pets and plants, but it's not the same system

没错。

Right.

不是那种完整的、全方位的视觉智能。

As, like, the full blown visual intelligence.

这像是一个旧系统

It's like an older system

确实如此。

that does.

把智能功能加到截屏界面里，可你只是想截个图，这就特别烦人。

Intelligence into the screenshot interface, which when you're just trying to take a screenshot, it's very annoying.

没错。

It is.

但他们还是把它放进了截屏功能，却没有放进照片应用里。

But they built it there, and and and it's not in photos.

而且确实如此。

And and Yeah.

我觉得背后有技术原因，能理解他们为什么这么设计。

I think there's a a technical reason why you understand why it's like that.

但作为用户，你就会想：为什么我要这么麻烦？

But if you're a user, you're like, why am I having to do this?

我为什么得截一张截图的图？

Why do I have to take a screenshot of a screenshot?

对。

Mhmm.

谢谢洛根。

So thank you to Logan.

吉米来信问，关于AirPods带摄像头的传闻，你觉得这事儿是技术问题，还是宣传策略问题？

Jimmy wrote in and said, regarding the AirPods with camera rumor, do you think it's about the tech or about the messaging?

如果苹果把它宣传成带环境传感器的AirPods，会不会改变大家的看法？

If it's announced as AirPods with environmental sensors or something, does that change the perception?

消费者根本不会指望它能拍照，公众也不会觉得它是个摄像头。

Consumers won't expect to take pictures, and the public won't assume it's a camera.

这款产品能极大提升辅助功能，比如阅读、识物、门框识别，这些正是放大镜应用已经在做的。

This product would be a boon to accessibility, reading science, door detection, other things the magnifier app already does.

如果苹果宣传它能实现手机功能，却不用手机本身，情况会不会不一样？

If Apple advertises it has phone stuff without the phone, does that change things?

我只是听说有人提到，如果这真是个红外摄像头，或者是个不太寻常的功能，但苹果不把它当成相机卖，而是说成视觉传感器之类的东西，因为我觉得它根本不是用来拍照的。

And I will just say I heard from some people who said, like, if this is like an infrared camera or it's got it's an unusual thing, and it and they don't sell it as a camera but as a as a visual sensor or something like something that is it's not about taking pictures because I don't believe it will be about taking pictures.

我觉得它的重点在于感知环境。

I believe it'll be about sensing things.

也许这样的说法真能带来不同。

Maybe that makes a difference.

我不确定。

I don't know.

对。

Yeah.

几年前他们推出门禁识别功能的时候，那真的挺厉害的。

The the the door detection stuff is really cool when they rolled that out, I think, a couple years ago now.

而且，确实，那种天然处于视线高度的摄像头，在辅助功能方面特别实用。

And, yeah, clearly, cameras that are sort of, well, sort of inherently eye level are really useful from an accessibility standpoint.

但我更想讨论的是，苹果到底会不会管它叫摄像头？

But I think the broader conversation of does Apple call it a camera?

大家会觉得它是个摄像头吗？

Is it perceived as a camera?

这事儿真挺复杂的。

That's really complicated.

我觉得这类东西已经引发不少反对声音了。

I think there's enough pushback on things like this.

比如Meta的Ray-Ban，还有其他类似产品，确实有不少人不喜欢，也不想让它们出现在身边或家里。

Like, there are lots of people like the meta Ray Bans and, like, the other things, but there a lot of people who really don't like them and and don't wanna be around them or have them in their house.

我觉得，不管苹果怎么宣传，只要它本质上还是个摄像头，就有可能出问题——除非它真不是摄像头，比如纯粹是激光雷达传感器之类的。

Like, I think no matter how Apple sells it, unless it really is not a camera, if it's really like this is, you know, LIDAR sensors or something, then there's a risk of it kinda going sideways.

如果他们说这是个红外鱼眼摄像头，专门用来感知你周围的情况，但不用于拍照或录像，那或许能说得过去，说白了，就是个怪异的摄像头。

I think they can get away with it if they said something like it's an infrared fish eye camera that's intended to see what's happening around you, but it's not for for taking pictures or videos or something like that where they It's a weird camera is basically what they would be saying.

他们会用一堆技术术语来显得高大上，但归根结底，大概就是这么回事。

They'd use technical things to make them seem impressive, but I think that's what it would be in the bottom line.

说白了，就是个有点怪的摄像头。

It's like, oh, it's kind of a weird camera.

别担心这个。

Don't worry about it.

这可不是干这个用的。

It's not for that.

我们不是在拍照。

We're not taking pictures.

我们也没在监视你。

We're not spying on you.

我们只是感知你周围的环境，用来提供一些帮助。

We're just seeing what's in your environment and using it for helpful things.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得像Meta那些产品，关键是要让对方知道他们正在被记录。

I I think the other thing that is I think is key on things like the meta products is, like, some indication to the other person they're being recorded.

如果这更像是一种环境感知的传感器，我不知道该怎么实现，但我确实觉得这样能让人稍微安心一点。

And I don't know how you do that if this is more of, like, an environmental sort of ambient sensor setup, but I do think that helps people a little bit be at more ease with the with these things.

说到这个，我想起一件事，一直没机会说，现在正好借这个机会讲一讲。

Did it this has made me think of something that I haven't had a place to say it, so I'm just gonna have it here.

看到像Meta这样的产品，或者带摄像头的AirPods，大家很容易就联想到谷歌眼镜的时代。

Like, I think it's easy to look at at products like the Meta stuff or even something like this, AirPods with cameras, and immediately go to the Google Glasses situation.

但那已经是很久以前的事了。

But that was a long, long time ago.

当年谷歌眼镜刚推出的时候，摄像头还没像现在这样无处不在。

When Google Glasses came out, it was unusual for cameras to be everywhere.

那时候虽然很多人已经用上了智能手机，但把现在的情况直接跟当年的谷歌眼镜相提并论，其实并不公平。

We we a bunch of people already had smartphones, but I think comparing this directly to, like, the glass hole situation is not really right or fair.

不过，也确实会有人对这个感到强烈反感，压根儿不觉得这有什么好。

But at the same time, there are people who are gonna have strong feelings about this and and not not be excited about it.

但归根结底，关键还是怎么表达。如果苹果能清楚地说明，这些功能主要服务于辅助功能和视觉识别，作为用户，我甚至都看不到摄像头在哪——可能所有数据都直接进应用了。

But, yeah, it's all in the messaging, and I think if Apple can talk about it and and the use cases really are accessibility, visual intelligence, you know, I as a user can't even see what the camera Like, maybe this is all kind of going into these apps and things.

这一点必须说得明明白白。

There's gotta be really clear about that.

我觉得关键是要用一种让人安心的方式来解释，既不轻视那些有顾虑的人，也不显得高高在上。

And I think be able to explain it in a way that is reassuring, not but but also not condescending to people who are concerned about this stuff.

没错。

Right.

确实如此。

Right.

这肯定会挺有意思的。

It's gonna gonna be interesting.

我到现在还在想，他们到底怎么卖这个产品呢？不过我想我们很快就会知道了。

I still I still am trying to imagine how they sell this product, but I guess we'll find out Yeah.

如果这东西真能面世的话。

If it ever exists.

另外还有一件事想聊聊，就是关于芯片分选和 MacBook Neo 的事。

So another bit bit of follow-up is about binning and the MacBook Neo.

我们之前已经聊得挺多了。

We talked about that a lot.

有人给我提了一条奇怪的反馈，说杰森根本不明白什么叫binning。

I got one piece of weird feedback who said Jason doesn't understand how binning works.

他说binning是你主动去做的，可我从来没这么讲过，不过我还是挺感谢这些建议的。

He he said that binning is what you try to do, and I'm like, I never said that, but I appreciate the feedback, I guess.

binning是自动发生的。

Binning just happens.

顺便说一下，如果你好奇为什么会有binning，我最近看到《华尔街日报》一篇报道，觉得挺有意思——这种事对科技圈的人来说是老生常谈，但对普通读者来说，倒是个不错的商业故事。

By the way, if you were wondering why binning happens, The Wall Street Journal I I find this funny because this is one of those things where it's like, it's a cool angle for The Wall Street Journal, and for tech people, it's kind of a known issue.

对不懂技术的读者来说，这确实是个吸引人的商业话题。

But to the non tech readers, it's a cool business story.

他们发了一篇题为《苹果靠有瑕疵的芯片做出爆款产品并赚取高额利润》的文章。

So they did a story called Apple is making hit products and high profits from imperfect chips.

标题听起来挺可疑，但内容其实只是解释了binning是怎么回事：晶圆上有些芯片性能完美，有些完全报废，还有一些介于两者之间。苹果现在特别擅长把那些‘没完全废掉’的芯片用在别的产品里，这我们之前聊过。

And the headline is more suspicious than the story, which is just an explainer about how binning works where you've got a wafer, and some of the chips work great, and some of the chips don't work at all, and some of the chips are in between, and that Apple has gotten very good at using some of the, you know, fail, but not too much, and using them in other products, which we've been talking about.

这就是binning的全部意思。

That's what binning is.

不过还是要感谢《华尔街日报》向他们的读者解释了这一点。

But thanks to the Wall Street Journal for explaining it to their audience.

Mango来信说，这太棒了。

So Mango wrote in and said, I this is great.

这是一封非常好的来信。

This is a great letter.

这封信写得真不错。

This is great letter.

Mango，来自阴谋论研究所的。

Mango, coming from the conspiracy theory bureau.

我对芯片分选有一些很离谱的问题。

I have some wild questions on binning.

我知道记者有他们的职业标准，但质疑一款iPhone 18 Pro是否真的经过了分选，也完全合理。

I know journalists have standards, but it's also fair to question the basic premise of a binned a 18 pro.

我们真的知道有损坏的核心吗？

Do we know there are bum cores?

如果不管芯片的测试表现如何，Neo在所有核心全开时耗电太多、发热太严重怎么办？

What if regardless of the system on a chip's test performance, the neo uses too much power or makes too much heat with all cores turned on?

iPad 3用的A5X芯片是第一款增加额外GPU核心的A系列芯片，因为要支持视网膜屏，结果那台iPod iPad背面烫得厉害。

The a five x for iPad three was the first A series chip with extra GPU cores because retina, and the back of that iPod iPad got really hot.

我记得很清楚。

I I remember it well.

史上最差的iPad。

Worst worst iPad ever.

对啊。

Yeah.

谢谢你提到这一点。

Thanks for bringing that up.

我压根没在六个月之内换过。

Never replaced it in, like, six months.

没错，简直太烫了。

Oh, it was so yes.

芒果，这个阴谋论我挺欣赏的。

Mango, the the I I I appreciate the conspiracy theory.

也许他们关闭核心是出于别的原因。

Maybe they they deactivated the course for other reasons.

我们能确定的是，这些芯片是分档的。

I think that that what we know is that these are binned.

关键是，如果这不是分档芯片，而是原价芯片，那他们就得按全价购买。

The the thing is if it's not binned, if it's just a full price chip, they would have had to buy it for full price.

我并不是说没有一些Neo A18 Pro被关闭了核心。

And I'm not saying that there aren't some neo a 18 pros that are deactivated.

有可能。

That may be.

他们可能有多余的、完全合格的芯片，测试通过了，但因为用不上六核GPU的版本，就直接禁用了。

They may have had excess of the perfectly good ones that passed the test, and they deactivated those already just because they have no use for the six GPU version.

这有可能，但你知道吗，既然他们要大批量生产，而且会继续拿到更多这类芯片，苹果不可能专门订购有缺陷的芯片，也就是说，那些六核GPU完全正常、却不得不禁用的芯片，他们还是得按全价买。

It's possible, but, you know, as we found out because they're gonna do a hot lot and they're gonna get more of these, Apple's not, you know, ordering up broken chips, which means the ones that come out fully functional with six GPU cores that they have to disable, they're gonna pay full price for those.

他们会为那些部分损坏的芯片支付折价，但同时也要为完好的芯片支付全价。

And they'll pay the the bin price, the, you know, the partially broken price for the ones that are partially broken, but they will also be paying full price.

所以他们不会那么做，据我理解，只要芯片能用，就得按全价付给台积电。

So that's why they wouldn't do that is that they have to pay TSMC full full price is my understanding for the ones that work.

就像。

Like

对。

Yeah.

因为你要是跟台积电说，

Because if you say that you go and order from TSMC.

我要以前那种少一个核心的版本，

Oh, I want what I used to have at one less core.

首先，这根本就是新情况了，

Well, one, that's like It's a new time.

重新开线生产，最后出来的还是会有一批经过分档的处理器。

To spin this back up, and and you're gonna have binned processors out of that collection.

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

你最好目标设为六个，因为有一部分芯片只会有一个核心出问题，但这些依然能用。

You wanna you wanna try to make it with six because a certain percentage of them will have a single fail, and those are all usable.

而那些完全没有故障的，当然也能用。

And the ones that have no failures are all usable.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你的目标应该是

So you wanna shoot for

再加上，这是你的设计。

the plus it's your design.

你的设计就是六个。

Your design is six.

没错。

Right.

而且他们可能在Neo里关闭了这个功能，或者几周前有人推测过。

And either they they turn that off in the neo or maybe, like, was theorized a couple weeks ago.

也许高端版的Neo以后会多一个核心。

Maybe the higher end neo gets one extra core at some point.

我觉得这其实没那么重要。

I don't think it really matters.

从商业角度来看，这确实挺有意思，毕竟苹果很少会陷入这种局面。

I mean, it's interesting from, like, the business perspective, and, like, Apple doesn't end up in these situations very often.

但Neo这款产品，Neo的故事远不止GPU核心数量这一点。

But, like, the the product of the Neo like, the story of the Neo is so much more than how the number of GPU cores Yeah.

它拥有的核心数。

It has.

这是一台令人愉悦的电脑。

Like, it's a delightful computer.

我昨天刚给其中一个孩子 setup 了一台，我仔细看了看。

I just set one up yesterday for one of my kids, and I was going through it.

是那款柑橘色的，他们特别兴奋，觉得这台笔记本虽然便宜，但功能齐全，挺有意思的。

It's the Citrus one, and they're super excited and like it's like, yeah, this is like a fun laptop that's inexpensive but full featured.

你知道，我孩子根本不会在意

And like, you know, my kid's not gonna care about

它里面有多少个GPU核心。

how many GPU cores are in it.

我也不在乎。

I don't really care.

真正有意思的是那些背后的技术细节。

It's just it's the behind the scenes stuff that makes this interesting.

多一个核心还是少一个核心，根本不会影响这款产品的整体体验。

It doesn't make or break the product if one core is turned on.

我更关心的是它的价格，别的都不重要。

I'm more concerned about the price of it than anything else.

不过我觉得Neo最重要的特点就是它的价格。

But I think the most important feature of the Neo is what it costs.

对吧？

Right?

那为什么没有橙色款呢？

And why there's not an orange one.

再等等看吧。

We'll give it time.

耐心等着吧。

Give it time.

他们迟早会推出的。

They'll get there.

柠檬青柠款倒是插队抢在前面了。

Lemon Lime got to jump it in the queue, I guess.

当然了。

Sure.

本集《Upgrade》由DeleteMe赞助播出。

This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by DeleteMe.

在如今监控和数据泄露屡见不鲜、人人都可能受害的环境下，DeleteMe能帮你轻松、快速、安全地删除网上的个人信息。

DeleteMe makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable.

DeleteMe会帮你和家人从各大数据经纪商和网站上彻底清除个人资料，省去你操心的麻烦。

DeleteMe does the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data, broker, websites.

我特别喜欢的网站The Wirecutter，把DeleteMe评为数据删除服务的首选。

The Wirecutter, one of my favorite websites, named DeleteMe their top pick for data removal services.

通常Mike在这儿的时候，他会跟大家讲他和Adena为什么用DeleteMe。

Now normally when Mike's here, he will tell you about why he and Adena use DeleteMe.

他们特别认同把网上那些关于自己的垃圾信息清理掉，这样生活能更安心，也不用总担心这些信息到处流传。

They really like the idea of getting junk about themselves off the Internet so that they can lead better lives and not and and, like, have the confidence to know that that stuff is not out there, that it doesn't have to be out there.

你没必要默认这些信息就该永远在网上飘着。

You don't have to accept that all of that stuff is gonna be floating out there.

你也可以像他们一样。

And you can be like them.

你可以通过注册 DeleteMe 来掌控自己的数据，保护个人隐私，作为 Upgrade 听众的专属优惠，使用促销码 upgrade20 在结账时可享八折。

You can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMe at a special discount for Upgrade listeners, 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to join deleteme.com/upgrade20 and use promo code upgrade 20 at checkout.

想享受八折优惠，必须通过 joindeleteme.com/upgrade20 注册，并在结账时输入 promo code upgrade 20。

The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com/upgrade20 and enter code upgrade 20 at checkout.

前往 joindeleteme.com/upgrade20codeupgradetwenty 注册。

Join deleteme.com/upgrade20codeupgradetwenty.

感谢 DeleteMe 对 Upgrade 和 Relay 的支持。

Thank you to DeleteMe for supporting Upgrade and Relay.

该聊聊最新传闻了，斯蒂芬。

Rumor roundup time, Stephen.

好嘞。

Yeehaw.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

非常感谢。

I appreciate it.

我就知道你会把这一条做对的。

I knew you were gonna do do that one right.

马克·古尔曼，这位消息灵通的记者，要来聊聊 iOS 27 里的 Siri。

Mark Gurman, the sheriff, is moseying into town to talk about Siri on iOS 27.

他在自己的通讯里写过这件事。

He wrote about this in his newsletter.

他专门写了一篇文章谈这个。

He wrote a piece about this.

是的。

Yeah.

他一直在反复强调，毕竟他一整年都在跟进这些动态。

He's reiterating you know, he's he's he reports about this all year long.

随着 WWDC 越来越近，他得把新内容和之前报道过的那些信息串起来讲。

So as we get closer to WWDC, some of what he has to do is sort of, like, put it in the context of the things he's already reporting.

他之前已经提到过，会有一个独立的Siri聊天应用。

So he's already said, I think, that there's a standalone Siri app for chatting.

他说用户可以通过Siri、发起新搜索，或者从屏幕中央下滑，直接进入聊天模式。

He said users are gonna be able to pop into the chat experience via Siri or entering a new search or ask mode by swiping down from the center.

从屏幕顶部下滑时会触发很多功能，但其中一项就是类似Spotlight，但实际上是Siri。

There's a lot of stuff happening when you swipe down from the top of the screen, but one of them will be basically, it's like Spotlight, but it's it's Siri.

这就是搜索和提问功能的整合，我觉得这个想法不错。

It's search or ask, unifying that, which I think is a good idea.

在隐私方面，马克报告说，Siri的上下文记忆会变得更小。

And then in terms of privacy, Mark reports that Siri will have a smaller context memory.

它还是会记住之前的对话和其他细节，但默认会自动删除。

It it will remember previous chat and other details.

你可以自行调整对话记录的保存时长，但默认是自动清除。

It'll be set to auto delete, although you can change how long conversations stick around.

他真正想表达的是，苹果必须在隐私上站稳立场，但也不能让自己的标准成为障碍——这一直是马克分析中反复提到的痛点。他觉得苹果一方面标榜隐私，另一方面这些新功能又似乎对隐私不太友好，这中间的矛盾该怎么调和？

And that what he's really saying is Apple, Apple has to lean into privacy here, but they need to not let their standards get in the way, which has been a kind of a a bug bear for Mark Gurman's kind of analysis of his reporting for a while now as he feels like Apple is struggling with the idea that it's got a privacy brand and that this stuff all kind of, like, is not great for privacy, and how does it square that?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得他提到这一点没错。

And I don't think he's wrong to touch on that.

他把太多期望都寄托在这上面了。

I think he he hangs a lot of hats on it.

但归根结底，那些想要苹果AI产品的人，其实很在意隐私。

But the I think at the end of the day, like, people who want an AI product from Apple, like, those those those people care about privacy.

这甚至可能是他们选择苹果而不是ChatGPT、Claude，或者天啊，Grok的主要原因。

That that may even be a primary reason they choose it over something like ChatGPT or Claude or, god forbid, Grock.

但与此同时，如果因为这个导致产品不好用，或者让人用起来特别烦，那这条底线就实在太窄了。

But at the same time, if it make means the product doesn't work or is, like, frustrating to use, I guess it it feels like a very thin landing strip to for this to to come down on.

而且

And

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我并不是说……

I don't I

我只是不明白他们是怎么做到的。

I just don't know how they how they manage that.

我的意思是，谷歌和苹果的关系，这一点古尔曼提到过：苹果一直主打私有云计算的品牌，说数据会进入他们的私有云。

I mean, Google relationship, and this is something that Gurman points out is Apple has this private cloud compute branding, and they talk about having things go to the private cloud.

但这并不意味着他们不能用谷歌，因为谷歌现在也有私有层级，数据同样被严格隔离，看起来明显是受到了苹果做法的启发。

It it doesn't preclude them from using Google because Google also has a private tier now where where things get locked up in very much a way inspired it seems by what Apple is doing.

对。

Mhmm.

所以他们可能在WWDC上不会明说，这一点我们得留意，

And so it's possible that what they're going to say, and we'll have to watch for this at WWDC, right, is they may not describe it.

他们可能不会把它称为苹果自己的服务器。

They may not brand it as Apple's servers.

有可能。

They may.

我的意思是，这取决于他们怎么定义私有云计算，以及到底算不算苹果自己的服务器，还是说谷歌的服务器只要功能一样也算在内。

I mean, it depends on how they wanna define what private cloud compute is and whether it's Apple servers or whether Google servers that do the same thing are counted.

但很有可能情况就是这样，他们实际上

But it's quite possible that that's what's going on is that they're actually

对。

Yeah.

你

You

知道，这不一定是在苹果的服务器上运行。

know, this is not necessarily running on Apple servers.

它可能是在谷歌的服务器上运行，但使用的是相同的安全模型，同样的理念，就是他们看不到数据。

It may be running on Google servers that are using the same security models, the same idea that they can't see it.

他们无法对数据做任何操作，并且他们会做出这些声明。

They can't do anything with it, and that they'll make those those claims.

但我认为他们确实会这么做。

But I do think they are gonna do that.

我觉得苹果在这方面的重点就是让你使用这些服务时，没人能知道你的数据内容。

I think that that's one of the things Apple really has invested in here is the idea that you can you can use these services and none of these people know.

所有的数据基本上都是匿名的，服务器的运营方根本看不到。

Like, all that data is anonymous essentially and unviewable by the hosts of the servers that you're using.

没错。

Right.

我记得谷歌在去年十一月就宣布，他们已经建成了真正意义上的私有云计算服务。

I mean, Google made an announcement back in November that they had built effectively what private cloud compute is and does.

没错。

Right.

也许这正是苹果和他们合作的一部分。

Maybe that was part of the deal with Apple.

我记起来了，当时Gemini发布的时候，我们就讨论过这事。

I remember we that was a conversation when the Gemini thing was announced.

我当时就在想，他们能不能做到这一点，或者有没有这个意愿？

I was like, is this a factor here that they were able to do this or or willing to do it?

我觉得有意思的是，如果苹果操作得当，它其实能两全其美。

I think it's also interesting that Apple, if they play their cards right, they kinda get the best of both worlds.

他们能用那些在隐私保护没那么严格的情况下训练出来的模型，但最终推出的产品却能建立起更高的隐私壁垒。

They get access to models that were trained without a lot of privacy rules in place necessarily, but the product they get to build out of that is or or does have those higher privacy walls in place.

我觉得他们接下来要说的，可能比功能本身更值得期待，因为某种程度上，我们已经猜到会有什么功能了。

That I think is gonna be as interesting to hear from them as what the features are because in a way we know what the features are gonna be.

对吧？

Right?

他们在做一个聊天机器人。

They're building a chatbot.

这些功能我们早就知道了。

We know what those things do.

他们之前已经在系统其他地方透露过AI能做什么，比如图像生成、视觉识别这些功能。

They've already tipped their hand in other areas of the OS that AI can interact with, like image generation and visual intelligence and these other things.

我们知道他们的产品会是什么样子。

We know what their product is going to be.

但我们不知道它具体会怎么运作，而这方面他们确实有个故事要说。

Well, what we don't know is how it's going to work, and they have a story to tell there.

是的。

Yeah.

这会是个挑战，我觉得真正关键的时候，是看他们怎么去解释这个东西。

It's gonna be a challenge, and this is when we're gonna parse the details, I feel like, is it really is gonna come down to how do they pitch this?

因为我觉得，他们的目标仍然是最大限度地保护隐私。

Because some I I I do believe that the goal of this is still gonna be to maximize privacy.

我觉得他们摆脱不了这一点，也不打算摆脱。

I think they can't get away from that, and they don't want to.

对。

Mhmm.

但这确实是个问题。

But I it is it is an issue.

我收到一条反馈，这次节目可能没时间聊到，就是关于语义索引的问题——但你有多个设备的时候怎么办？

I piece of feedback I got that I I don't think we're gonna get to in this episode, but it was asking about, like, the idea of the semantic index, but you've got multiple devices.

那数据在设备之间怎么同步呢？

And are you syncing data across devices?

苹果的做法通常是，比如照片识别，模型直接在设备上运行，所以你每台设备上的照片都会重新分析一遍。

And a lot of times what Apple does is, you know, you're running a model for photos on device, which is why the photo stuff doesn't like, it it reruns on every device you've got.

其中一个原因就是这本来就是个机器学习的问题。

And one of the reasons is it's just a machine learning thing.

他们并不是在设备之间传递元数据。

Like, they're not they're not passing metadata around.

而是用机器学习模型，自己在本地生成照片里所有关键词的标签。

They're using their ML model to generate what those all of those key keywords are on your photos.

对。

Mhmm.

所以像个人上下文这样的功能，风险就在于：你要是把数据传来传去，等于把私人信息带出了手机。

So that's the danger with something like personal context is, like, you could pass it around, but now you're passing around personal data and it's leaving your phone.

而且我觉得，如果他们真要推出个人上下文这类功能——毕竟那是iOS 17的特性，谁知道他们会不会回头再做呢。

And I I still feel like if they do something like personal context, which was, you know, a 24 feature, so who knows if they're gonna ever go back there.

但要是他们真做了，就很难再解释说‘数据在设备间传递没问题’，而‘绝不离开设备’就一定更好。

But if they do go back there, it's very hard to make the claim that you're passing it around, but it's okay versus it never leaves your device.

所以我觉得，他们最终可能只能选择让数据留在设备上，但这么做可能会让他们落后于竞争对手，必须做个取舍。

So I feel like they're gonna be left with it's gonna leave it's gonna stay on your device, but that that might put them if it puts them at a disadvantage compared to what their competitors are doing, they have to make a choice.

我觉得古尔曼说的这些，核心其实是在问：苹果是要甘于落后，还是为了不掉队而打破自己之前的承诺。

And that's that's I think what Gurman's really getting at with a lot of what he says is is Apple going to put itself behind, or is it going to break some of its promises in order to stay relevant.

我不确定这个话题会不会真的展开，但确实是个很有可能的方向。

And I don't know if it'll come up or not, but it's certainly a possibility.

这很可能根本不会出现在主题演讲里。

This very well may not be a a keynote type thing.

更可能是放在‘状态更新’这类环节里。

This may be a state of the union.

或者藏在某个叫‘深入了解Apple Intelligence’的分会场里，根本没人注意。

It may be a it's buried down in a session somewhere of, like, you know, get to know the new Apple intelligence.

对吧？

Right?

而且里面确实有一部分讲到了这些内容。

And and there's a section in there about this about these things.

因为这也会对开发者产生影响。

Because it does also affect developers.

对吧？

Right?

如果开发者想通过API调用苹果智能和背后的Gemini模型，他们可能会受到苹果如何设计和架构这些功能的限制。

If if a developer is going to tap into Apple intelligence and the Gemini model behind it through API usage, that developer may have limitations based on how Apple builds this and how they structure it.

所以我猜，即使不是重点，他们也一定会提到一些相关内容。

So I suspect we'll hear something even if it's not the headline.

是的。

Yeah.

他们总得说点什么。

They gotta say something.

这纯粹是个问题，到底是什么？

It's just a question of what it what is it?

对啊。

Mhmm.

到底是什么？

What is it?

还有，马克·古尔曼又写了一篇报道，我本来在犹豫要不要提，但至少我想说一下，说的是什么苹果和OpenAI结盟、可能引发法律纠纷的荒唐新闻。

Also, there was another Mark Gurman story that that I was debating whether I wanted to give this any oxygen or not, but I I I wanna at least mention it, which is a think a very weird story about the headline is Apple OpenAI alliance phrase setting up possible legal fight.

这事儿特别奇怪，因为马克·古尔曼的报道通常都来自苹果内部的消息源。

And it's a very weird story because, you know, most of Mark Gurman's stories are based on his sources at Apple.

但这次不一样，根本不用猜来源是谁——明确是位没点名的OpenAI高管在给他提供引述。

And this, there's no question of who his source is because there's an unnamed OpenAI executive giving him quotes.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且这也不是什么匿名消息。

And and and it's not an anonymous.

我的意思是，这些人身份都没公开。

I mean, they are unnamed.

马克·古尔曼，你知道的，他们肯定是找上他，说：‘我们想给你点猛料，但不能透露是谁说的。’这让我觉得，这根本就是OpenAI官方授意的表态。

Mark Gurman, like, they they can't I I assume they came to him and said, we would like to give you some juicy stuff, but you can't name who said it, which feels to me like this is an authorized by OpenAI communication.

而且这个表态本身，也特别奇怪。

And the communication itself, it's really weird.

一家市值巨大的公司，跑去媒体说：‘我们觉得苹果在AI合作上亏待了我们，正在考虑要不要告他们。’

It's basically a giant corporation worth lots and lots of money goes to the media to say, we feel like he Apple's treated us bad about our AI partnership, and we're talking to lawyers about whether we should sue them.

这简直是我见过最空洞的虚张声势了——他们根本不是真要告。

It's like the it's the most abstract saber rattling I've seen in a while where it's like, they're not actually threatening to sue them.

他们只是在放风说‘可能’要告。

They're sort of threatening to talk to people about suing them.

这就像放了个小气球试探风向。

It's it's like a tiny trial balloon.

你懂的。

You know?

就是这样。

It's like Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们看看这感觉如何。

Let's see how this feels.

对。

Yeah.

在放这个气球之前，我们得先试试看，没错。

Let's before we release the trial balloon, we we we'll we'll put That's right.

先放个小气球上去，看看会有什么反应。

Put this little little party balloon up and see what happens to it.

对。

Yeah.

这真的挺奇怪的。

It's just it's very weird.

另外，我不是律师。

Also, I'm not a lawyer.

你可以对任何事提起诉讼，但我实在看不出他们到底有什么有力的依据——这大概也是他们只找律师咨询，却没真去起诉的原因，他们觉得苹果在这方面没够努力，用户也没多少人用，诸如此类。

You can sue for anything, but I I have a hard time seeing exactly what their case is, which is probably why they're only talking to lawyers and not filing a lawsuit because they feel like it's sort of like Apple didn't try hard enough with this, and not enough people are using it and and other stuff like that.

这在我看来真的挺奇怪的。

It just seems very weird to me.

有点吃不到葡萄说葡萄酸的意思。

Kinda sour grapes.

我觉得格鲁伯上周就提到过，OpenAI的App在App Store里其实挺成功的。

It and I think Gruber pointed out last week that it's not like OpenAI's app isn't very successful in the App Store.

那他们到底在抱怨什么呢？

So what what exactly are they complaining about?

会不会是他们对传闻有意见，说在iOS 27里，其他AI服务商将和他们平起平坐，不再享有独家地位？

And maybe are they complaining about the reports that in in iOS 27, they're gonna be peers to other AI providers, and they're no longer gonna be exclusive.

他们觉得，当初的独家窗口期并没给他们带来实际好处，你看看就知道了。

And they feel like their exclusivity window didn't really benefit them because I mean, look.

是的。

Mhmm.

这都怪WWDC 2024吧，关于AI的很多事都没搞成，你们就是其中一个。

Chalk it up to WWDC twenty four, but, like, there's a lot of stuff going on about AI that just didn't work out, and you were one of them.

没错。

I mean, like Yeah.

但其实也没对你造成多大影响，毕竟平台上还是有很多OpenAI的用户。

And it didn't hurt you appreciably because the platform has still got lots of OpenAI users on it.

我觉得这事儿真挺奇怪的。

So I I find it I just it's a weird story.

他们大概是有个OpenAI的人对和苹果的合作特别不满，就想放个大招，让苹果注意到他们不高兴。

Like, they want somebody at OpenAI got bent out of shape about the Apple relationship and just wanted to, like, really just fire off a flare saying this will get their attention to that we're unhappy.

我猜他们其实就是希望有人能回个电话，让某个高管打过来，说：好吧。

And probably my guess is they were just hoping to get, you know, somebody to return their calls about this, get some executive to call them and say, okay.

我们来调整一下。

Let's move this over.

我们很抱歉你感到不开心。

We're we're sorry you're unhappy.

会好起来的。

It's gonna be okay.

但我也不太明白。

But that I don't know.

这真是我见过最让人费解的事之一了，因为根本没什么实质内容。

I it it was one of the more baffling stories ever because there's no there's nothing behind it.

我不是说这事没发生过。

I mean, I I'm not saying it didn't happen.

这事确实发生了。

It did happen.

我只是说，就连OpenAI自己也拿不出多少证据来支持他们向马克·古尔曼泄露的这些说法。

I'm just saying there's not even OpenAI can muster very much in this leak that they're doing to Mark Gurman.

是的。

Yeah.

如果苹果公司去找他们，承诺说你们的使用量会达到多少，达不到的话我们补差额，类似这样的条件，

If Apple had gone to them and promised, hey, you're gonna you're gonna see x amount of usage, and if you don't, we'll pay you for the difference or, you know, something like Then

那他们就该付钱。

they should pay them.

那他们就该付钱。

Then they should pay them.

对。

Yeah.

但如果这是OpenAI那边的依据，那不应该是他们的正式声明，而不是现在这个东西吗？

But if that was what OpenAI had on their side, wouldn't that be their statement and not whatever this thing is?

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

这事儿挺怪的。

It's weird.

感觉模模糊糊的。

It feels wishy washy.

你懂的。

You know?

毫无疑问，这件事的发展超出了两家公司的预期。

No doubt this didn't go the way either company thought it would go.

当然。

Sure.

但确实如此。

But that's true.

他们宣布的每一件事都是如此。

Literally everything they announced.

这整个就是WBC二十四的故事。

That's the whole WBC twenty four story.

这不怪你。

It's not you.

是我们的问题。

It's us.

没错。

That's right.

但这就足以成为这样做的理由吗？

But is that justification for this?

除非真有什么我们不知道的重大内情，不然我其实挺同意你的。

Like, unless there's some big thing here we just don't know, I I kind of agree with you.

我真的看不出来有什么问题。

I I don't really see it.

不过呢，这也正好给了个机会，用上我这几年做科技报道最喜欢的一张照片——Eddie Q 和 Sam Altman 对话的那张，看着就像在训他熬夜太晚。

But but, you know, also, it's an opportunity to use one of my favorite photos of the last however many years of tech journalism of Eddie Q speaking to Sam Altman, and it looks like he's grounding him for staying out too late.

对。

Yeah.

你这是被罚禁足了。

You're you're you got detention.

你得去校长办公室报到。

You gotta go to the the the dean's Office.

还有件事，刚爆出的消息。

One other item, this this just broke.

今天早上，我的消息来源史蒂芬·哈克特发给我一个链接。

This morning, I received this this link from my gate correspondent, Stephen Hackett.

别喜欢我这个说法。

Don't like me that.

一台Mac正躲在绿门后面，探出头来说：‘铰链门’。

A Mac he's behind the green gate right now just sticking his head over the green gate saying, hinge gate.

这事儿真会发生吗？

Is it going to happen?

这又是微博上的爆料。

It's another Weibo leaker.

这是即时数字消息，MacRumors已经整理出了他们说的细节。

This is instant digital, and Mac Rumors has got the the details of what they're saying.

有意思的是，他们说苹果的工厂现在在折叠屏iPhone的铰链上遇到麻烦了，看起来是反复测试的问题——你们应该都看过那些视频吧，就是用机器反复开合，模拟日常使用磨损。

And it's funny because, actually, what they're saying is Apple Apple's factories are currently struggling with the hinge of the foldable iPhone in its it looks like in its repeated you know, we've seen those videos, right, where you you open and close a thing a bunch of times on a machine in order to kind of, like, model what the wear is.

这份报告指出，铰链在长时间高频开合的情况下，始终无法达到质量控制标准。

And what this report says is that the Hinge is consistently failing to meet the quality control standards under conditions of prolonged high frequency opening and closing.

所以这些测试设备中，几乎肯定有一台出现了问题。

So one of those machines almost certainly.

不过报告也提到，这不太可能推迟该设备的预期发布窗口。

However, the report also says it's unlikely to push back the device's expected release window somewhat.

什么？

What?

因为他们还剩不少时间可以调整。

Noting that there is still ample time remaining.

所以他们的意思是，这种问题时有发生，只要能解决，就不会影响产品上市时间。

So I guess what they're saying here is this stuff happens, and if they fix it, it's not gonna delay the product.

但就目前这份报告来看，苹果显然遇到了工厂内部的泄密——有人跟别人说：‘哦，对了，刚有个测试没过。’

But right now, at least as of this report, Apple has run-in I mean, this is clearly somebody in the factories saying to somebody, leaking to somebody, oh, yeah.

刚测试没通过。

Just failed a test.

于是这就成了一个故事。

And so it becomes this story.

但这确实是个难题。

But it's a hard problem.

对吧？

Right?

这是苹果以前从未处理过的新问题，他们必须得做对。

This is part of new stuff for Apple to handle that they've never handled before, something like this, and they wanna get it right.

他们可不想推出一款铰链有问题、开合不顺、屏幕因为铰链故障而出现严重折痕的iPhone。

They don't wanna have an iPhone come out that's got a a bad hinge that that moves badly or causes a big screen fold because it's moving wrong or or whatever is going on.

是的。

Yeah.

铰链和折痕才是关键所在。

I mean, the hinge and the crease are like the whole game

没错。

Yeah.

就在这儿。

Here.

对吧？

Right?

很多早期的折叠手机都因为铰链里进了灰尘之类的问题而失败，所以现在都做成了全封闭的。

And and so many early folding phones failed because of debris in the hinge or things like that, so they're enclosed now.

我相信他们最终一定能解决这个问题。

And, you know, I'm sure they'll figure it out.

我还觉得，就算苹果把iPhone产品线分开，比如18和Air 2放在春季发布，秋季只推Pro和Pro Max，再加上折叠屏，那折叠屏晚几周发布也完全没问题。

I I also think that if the if the foldable even if they split the iPhone line where the the next the 18 and maybe the Air two are in the spring, so so the fall is just the pro, pro max, and foldable, I think the foldable could also come a little bit later if they need another few weeks.

但我觉得，到这一步，应该不至于让这个成为致命问题。

But I I would suspect at this point, you would hope that this would not be a showstopper.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

我是说，他们之前确实遇到过问题，就是那个相机控制按钮，后来临时改成了操作按钮，因为原来的那种非实体按键设计不太靠谱，所以最终换成了真正的实体按键。

Like I mean, they did have that issue with the what I think was basically the the camera control button, which they turned into the action button late in the game because they were having issues with the camera control style, non you know, not quite physical button, and so they replaced it with a an actual physical button.

不过话说回来，这产品还没正式发布呢。

So, you know, it the product hasn't been announced.

如果他们没法让这功能稳定运行，大不了推迟到春季发布。

If they can't make it work reliably, they can just kick it to the spring Yeah.

或者干脆延到明年再说。

Or kick it to the following year.

但他们并不想这么做。

And they don't wanna do that.

其实他们完全可以这么做。

They could do that.

我了解的情况是，生产这类产品时，一开始会先做小批量试产，进行测试。

My understanding is the way this works is that, you know, when you're manufacturing these, you make the small lots and you test them.

但到最后，还是得上生产线，再对量产的产品进行测试。

But, eventually, you have to put it on the factory line, and then you test those.

对吧？

Right?

你在生产过程中会不断测试批次，确保一切都能正常运行。

You're you're testing you're testing batches as you go to make sure that it all is gonna work okay.

但到了下一阶段的量产时，我觉得还得再测一遍。

But you you know, when you go up to the the next level of production, I think you need to test it again.

每个阶段他们都有专门的名称，比如DVT、BVT、PBT、QVC之类的。

And they have names for every level of this, you know, DVT, BVT, PBT, QVC.

我不太确定。

I don't know.

他们确实有这么多测试阶段。

They've got they've got all those levels.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

They do.

你得在每一个阶段都进行测试。

And you need to test them at all those levels.

所以在我看来，他们应该是把产品提升到了下一个阶段，做了大量这类测试。

And so this sounds to me like they they brought it up to another level and did a bunch of this testing.

他们对结果显然不太满意。

They're, like, not happy with the results.

这让我觉得，很可能在这一阶段的组装方式和上一阶段不一样，得去排查问题。

And what that suggests to me is that it probably is that something in the way they're assembled at this level is not how they're assembled at the previous level, and they gotta debug it.

这种事其实挺常见的。

And this stuff probably happens.

如果你了解内情，可以匿名留言评论一下。

If you know, send in an anonymous comment about this.

但我猜是

But my guess is

经常发生。

All the time.

这种事经常发生。

Happens all the time.

生产iPhone的过程中，你得反复经历这些循环——发现哪里不对劲，然后重新来过。

This is part of the process of building of putting an iPhone on the factory is you gotta go through these cycles where you're like, that didn't work.

问题出在哪儿？

Where's the problem?

为什么这个铰链以前好好的，现在却不灵了？

Why is this hinge now not working when it was working before?

然后你就把它解决了。

And then you solve it.

咱们走着瞧吧。

So we'll see.

但他们确实有选择权。

But but they do have the freedom.

我的意思是，他们不能决定不发布下一代iPhone Pro，但如果真有问题，他们有权推迟这款产品的发布。

I mean, they don't have the freedom to not ship the next iPhone Pro, but they do have the freedom to not ship this if they really have a problem with it.

他们在这个产品上拥有完全的自由，因为它还不存在。

They they they got all the latitude in the world with this product because it doesn't exist.

它还没被正式公布。

It hasn't been announced.

我们都清楚它迟早会来，但他们完全可以推迟发布，这根本不会有什么大不了的，毕竟这不是在更新一个已经上市的产品。

We all know that it's coming, but, like, they can delay it, and it's just not gonna be the end of the world because it's not an existing product that they're updating.

好吧。

Alright.

这就是今天的传闻汇总了。

That is that is the end of, of Rumor Roundup.

接下来我们进入下一个环节，会有一场访谈。

We're gonna go to a new thing coming up in our next segment, which is gonna be an interview.

我采访了杰弗里·凯恩，他写了《流亡中的史蒂夫·乔布斯》这本书，明天——也就是我们录制的这一天，5月19日——就要出版了。

I got to talk to Geoffrey Cain who wrote the book Steve Jobs In Exile, which is coming out tomorrow as we record this May 19 about the book.

斯蒂芬，你听过这段访谈了，因为你是个来自未来的时光旅行者。

And, Stephen, you heard the interview because you're a time traveler from the future.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得这本书特别棒。

And I think it's a I think it's really good.

聊史蒂夫·乔布斯和NeXT，还有他在NeXT失败中学到的东西，真的很有意思。

I think it's a lot of fun talking about Steve Jobs and NeXT and what what Steve Jobs learned by failing at Next Yeah.

这本书讲的正是这个。

Which is what the book is all about.

这是一场特别精彩的对话。

It's a fascinating conversation.

这个话题之前没被深入探讨过。

It's an area that is not has not been covered super well.

虽然市面上有几本讲NeXT的书，但我还没读过这本。

Like, there's some books about Next out there, but I've not read the book right now.

对。

Yeah.

我的明天到。

Mine gets here tomorrow.

我知道。

And I know.

我知道。

I know.

这事儿排在我清单最上面。

And it's the top of my list.

不过呢，我觉得大家一定会很喜欢这个。

But, yeah, I think I think people are gonna really like this.

但在那之前，本集由Squarespace赞助播出。

But before that, this episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

Squarespace是一个一体化的网站平台，专为帮助你在线上脱颖而出、取得成功而设计。

Squarespace is the all in one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online.

无论你是刚起步还是在扩大业务，Squarespace都能让你在一个平台上完成域名注册、打造专业网站、推广品牌和收款，斯蒂芬·哈克特。

Whether you're just starting out or scaling your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand, and get paid all in one place, Stephen Hackett.

你好。

Hello.

你用的是Squarespace，对吧？

You use Squarespace, do you not?

是的。

I do.

我早就开始用Squarespace做网站了。

I I've been building a Squarespace forever.

Davis Smith的三个应用——Woodard Smith、Put On Plus Plus 和 Sleep Plus Plus——都是用Squarespace做的。

Davis Smith's three apps, Woodard Smith, Put On Plus Plus, and Sleep Plus Plus, they're sites.

这些网站全是我用Squarespace搭建的。

I built all on Squarespace.

说实话，我心里有数。

And, look, I I know what I'm doing.

我当然能手写代码做个复杂的网站，但那有什么意义呢？

Like, I could build something, like, super by hand, but why would I?

因为Squarespace让你轻松做出美观的网站。

Because Squarespace makes it easy to build something beautiful.

它用起来特别顺手。

It works really well.

我最喜欢的一点是，你其实不用在第一天就把所有功能都配上。

And my favorite thing about it is that, you know, maybe you don't need everything on day one.

比如你刚上线一个网站，第一天根本不需要博客或者视频画廊。

Like, maybe you launch a website and you don't need a blog or like a video gallery on day one.

但以后用着用着，可能就想要了。

But you do down the road.

想加的时候特别方便，根本不用从头重建整个网站。

Super easy to add it, and you're not like rebuilding your whole website from scratch.

你只要把那些模块加上去，导航会自动调整，站内搜索也会自动识别内容。

You just add those components, and the navigation knows what to do, and the site search knows what to do.

所有功能都互相连着，这样你就能慢慢完善网站，特别灵活，也很棒。

It all knows about each other, and it means you can build something over time, which is also really cool and gives you a lot of flexibility.

使用Squarespace，你还能很快被人发现。

So among the things you can do with Squarespace, you can get discovered fast.

它内置了SEO工具。

They have integrated SEO tools.

你不用懂搜索引擎的那些专业东西。

You don't need to be a search engine expert.

对吧？

You know?

也没人想建个网站却没人看见。

You also don't wanna build a website that nobody sees.

所以每个Squarespace网站都做了优化，自带元描述、自动生成站点地图，还有各种功能，让别人能搜到你的网站，搜索引擎也能抓取到。

That's why every Squarespace website is optimized to be indexed with meta descriptions, auto generated site map, and all sorts of other stuff so people can find your site, and search engines will see it.

你还可以用他们的数据分析来做更明智的商业决策。

And you can make smarter business decisions with their analytics.

你只需要关注那些真正重要的数据。

You keep track of the stats that matter.

Squarespace 内置了直观易用的分析工具，帮你轻松查看网站流量，了解该在哪里重点提升互动，还能追踪预约、账单或产品销售带来的收入。

Squarespace has intuitive built in analytics tools that makes it super easy for you to review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement, and track revenue from bookings, invoices, or product sales.

前往 squarespace.com/upgrade 申请免费试用。

Head over to squarespace.com/upgrade for a free trial.

准备上线时，使用优惠码 upgrade，即可享受网站或域名首单 10% 的折扣。

And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code upgrade, and you'll get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

就是 squarespace.com/upgrade。

That's squarespace.com/upgrade.

使用优惠码 upgrade，首单立减 10%，同时支持 Upgrade 节目。

Offer code upgrade to get 10% off your first purchase and show your support for upgrade.

感谢 Squarespace 对本节目和整个 Relay 的支持。

Thank you to Squarespace for supporting this show and all of Relay.

好了。

Alright.

接下来，我要为大家介绍本期的特别嘉宾。

Now I want to introduce my special guest for this episode.

这是杰弗里·凯恩，他写了《流亡中的史蒂夫·乔布斯》，这本书正好在我们明天发布这一集时上市，也就是5月19日。

It's Geoffrey Cain, author of Steve Jobs In Exile, which is coming out as we, as we release this episode tomorrow, May 19.

杰弗里，欢迎来到《Upgrade》。

Geoffrey, welcome to Upgrade.

很高兴能来，杰森。

Great to be here, Jason.

我特别喜欢这本书。

I really enjoyed this book a lot.

对苹果和乔布斯历史感兴趣的人，一定能从中收获很多。

I think people who are interested in Apple history and Steve Jobs history will get a lot out of it.

这事儿挺有意思的。

It's it's funny.

你给我发邮件的时候，正好我也在写大卫·波格那本书的书评，这两本书其实特别搭——波格的书完全聚焦在苹果的传记上，乔布斯一离开去NeXT，书里就几乎不再提他了，直到吉尔·阿梅里奥开始找操作系统时，他才又回来。

So you sent me an email about this about the same time that I was writing my review of David Pogue's book, and it it's such a great combination actually because David's book is so focused on being a biography of Apple that when Steve goes to next, he basically leaves the book and then reenters when Gil Emilio is shopping for an operating system.

而你的书则详细讲了乔布斯当年为什么会离开苹果。

And your book is you know, it's got details of what sort of led to Steve leaving Apple.

但你的书讲的是史蒂夫离开期间的经历，这段故事在很多方面都特别戏剧化。

But, like, your book is what happened to Steve while he was gone, which is very dramatic in a an amazing number of ways.

确实，写这本书的时候我就感受到了。

Well, yeah, will writing it.

我能清楚地看到其中的戏剧性。

I could see the drama.

那些情节一下子就抓住了我。

It was something that popped out right at me.

不过大卫·波格的书确实很棒。

But, yeah, David Pogue's book, excellent book.

我书桌上就放着一本，他写得特别深入，资料也极其详尽。

I have a copy on my desk, and he goes so in-depth and he's just so exhaustive.

我们俩还开玩笑说，应该把我们的书打包一起卖。

So we were joking together that our book should be sold as a set.

我的书讲的是史蒂夫从他书里消失的那几年，正好补上他在NeXT度过的那段艰难时光。

Mine is like the middle years when Steve disappears from his book and then here's the story of how Steve got through those tough years at Next Computer.

不过，这个故事我以前也写过科技传记，也写过公司。

But yeah, this story, I've written tech biographies before, written about companies.

每次让我印象最深的，就是史蒂夫离开苹果、陷入低谷、不断遭遇失败时，NeXT公司里那种惊人的戏剧性。

And what always popped out at me was the sheer amount of drama at Next Computer as Steve Jobs was leaving, as he was descending into the wilderness and trying to find his way through these repeat failures.

从1985年他离开苹果，到大约十年后的1995年，他做的几乎每一件事都失败了。

Almost everything he did from the time he left Apple in 1985 until about 1995, about ten years later, was a failure.

几乎是每一件。

Almost everything.

他做的硬件，比如那个著名的立方体电脑。

The hardware that he made, the cube, which is one of the famous items.

我简直震惊于，如果这种状况再持续几年，他将面临多么巨大的财务危机和个人破产。

And it's just I was mind blown by the sheer amount of financial terror and the personal bankruptcy that he would have faced if things continued in this direction just a few more years.

这些都是他的同事告诉我的。

That's what his his colleagues told me.

我当时就想，天啊。

And I was thinking, wow.

你知道吗，如果史蒂夫·乔布斯都经历过这些，那我或者别人生活中遇到的那些麻烦，可能也没那么严重。

You know, like, if if Steve Jobs is a guy who, you know, goes through this, then, you know, whatever problems I have in life or what other people might have, maybe maybe they're not actually that bad.

如果乔布斯都能挺过彻底的失败、破产，连NeXT的硬件部门都崩盘了，那这里面说不定真有值得我们所有人学习的东西。

If Steve Jobs can survive, like, total failure and bankruptcy and, you know, hit the hardware division of Next Computer falling apart, you know, maybe, maybe there's a lesson in here for all of us.

我之前跟人聊过这本书，当时就在想，该怎么形容它呢。

I had, I was telling somebody about having read this book, and I said I was like, how do I characterize it?

我觉得吧，这书挺沉重的。

And I thought, it's kinda tough.

我是说，书本身不错，但可不是那种温馨励志的故事——乔布斯离开苹果后，顺顺利利地悟出人生道理，然后华丽转身。

I mean, it is it's a good book, but, like, this is not one of these heartwarming stories where Steve Jobs steps off stage at Apple, and he goes into kind of, like, learn some important lessons in a heartwarming way and turns it all around.

这根本算不上是灾难，更像是。

Like, it's a dis it's not even a disaster.

一连串错误的决定、失误，还有各种问号。

It's like a series of bad decisions and missteps and question marks.

你能清楚地看到，当时他正需要被现实敲打，而他去NeXT之后，确实被狠狠地磨平了棱角。

And, like, it it it really you can see that this is this is a guy who is being humbled by the world at a time when he probably needs to be, but, like, he is absolutely being humbled when he's gone to to next.

没错。

Right.

这正是故事的核心。

And that's the thrust of the story.

我们都有这样一个故事。

You know, we we have this story.

我们常常听到的说法是，最初有个苹果，然后史蒂夫离开了。

We have this narrative that's often told that there was Apple version one, and Steve left.

十二年后他回来了，拯救了苹果，开启了苹果第二阶段——iPod、iPhone，那个辉煌的时代。

And then he returned twelve years later, he saved Apple, and that became Apple version two, the iPod, the iPhone, the masterpiece age.

我觉得这个说法挺贴切的。

I think that's a good term for it.

但这只是我们的偏见。

But that's just our bias.

这正是我们希望看到的样子。

That's what we want to see.