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大家好。
Hi, everyone.
欢迎收听《Uphill Athlete》播客。
Welcome to the Uphill Athlete podcast.
今天和我一起的是Martin Zor，我们来聊第二部分，关于高海拔和极高海拔的适应策略。
I am here with Martin Zor for part two of talking about acclimatization strategies for high and extreme altitudes.
Martin，谢谢你再次来参加第二部分。
So, Martin, thanks for coming on part two.
你好，Alyssa。
Hi, Alyssa.
是的。
Yeah.
我很高兴我们能完成这一部分，这次来聊聊更高海拔的情况。
I'm glad that we can finish this one and talk about the higher levels of altitude this time.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得当人们想到高海拔时，他们真的会开始考虑这些区域，而且这变得相当令人兴奋，也有点令人望而生畏，我想对很多人来说，知道如何处理我们正在攀登的更高海拔是很困难的。
I feel like that's the when people think about altitude, they really start thinking about these areas, and it gets pretty exciting, and a little bit daunting, I think, for a lot of people to know how to handle, the really higher higher elevations that we're we're gaining.
所以我希望你能谈谈更传统的适应策略，以及基本上我们过去做了什么，现在又处于什么位置的历史。
So I'd love for you to touch on what more traditional acclimatization strategies have been and kind of the, essentially, history of of what we've done in the past and where we are now.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得提一下这些是合理的，对于那些可能没有听过之前所有播客的听众来说。
That makes sense, I think, to mention for those that the listeners that haven't maybe listens to all the podcasts before.
我们上次谈到了高海拔生理学，以及一些更适用于中低海拔的策略。
We spoke about altitude, physiology, and then some of the strategies that are more applicable for lower moderate altitude like last time.
但是，我们也需要这些策略，对吧，首先，高海拔如何影响我们的身体和生理，以及为什么这很重要。
But, also, why do we need these strategies, right, to start with, like, how the altitude affects our body and our physiology and why is it important.
对吧？
Right?
所以也许回到基本问题，我们为什么需要适应高海拔，首先，真的是为了避免任何疾病。
So maybe back to the basic, why do we need to acclimatize is first, first of all, really to avoid any, any sickness.
所以那当然是一个非常重要的点，因为我们去得越高，身体就越难获得氧气，因为气压更低，我们的肺和身体真的越来越难从空气中提取氧分子到血液里。
So that that is, of course, the the one very important point because the higher we go, the more the body struggles to get the the oxygen in because with the lower barometric pressure, it's really harder and harder to for the for our lungs, for our body to extract the oxygen molecules from the air to to our to to the blood.
所以这是主要的挑战。
So that is the main challenge.
所以当然，身体会试图急性适应。
So, of course, the body is try trying to adapt to to it acutely.
比如，它感知到缺氧。
So for instance, it senses the hypoxia.
有最初的适应，心率加快，呼吸急促，然后整个适应级联，最终稳定下来，让我们的身体在那种海拔下能够正常运作。
There are first adaptations, the higher heart rate, increased heart rate, the hyperventilation, and then the the whole cascade of adaptations that eventually actually level off and and allow our body to somehow function at at that altitude.
但这有点代价。
But it comes sort of at a price.
如果你太快推进这个过程，太快上升到高海拔而没有给身体足够的时间适应，那肯定会适得其反，你可能会在表现上感受到一些影响，当然，然后会出现头痛、头晕、恶心、呕吐，然后实际上更严重的症状，比如急性高山病，那是第一个真正的疾病。
And if if you kinda push through that process too fast, if you go up to up to higher altitudes too fast without giving the body sufficient time to adapt, then it can definitely backfire, and you can you can you already feel some effects already on your performance, of course, but then things like headache, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, and and then actually more severe symptoms like like acute mountain sickness is the first one that actually is with actual the sickness.
更严重的是高海拔脑水肿和肺水肿，也就是HAEP和HACE。
And then more severe are the high HAEP and HACE, which are the high altitude cerebral and pulmonary edema.
这些是非常严重，甚至可能危及生命的状况。
And those are very serious and potentially illegal conditions.
所以我们一定要避免这种情况。
So we definitely want to avoid that.
这其实是第一个可能发生的，而且经常发生在那些不了解情况的人身上。
That's actually the first, right, that we that can act that can really happen and often happens for people that who who don't know.
我其实想说的是，那些身体很好的人，运动员，他们喜欢挑战自己。
And I will talk about that actually with fit people, athletes that actually they like to push themselves.
这可能是关键因素，他们会觉得，哦，我没事的。
That might be actually that the factor where it's like, oh, I'm just I'm I'll be fine.
我肯定没事。
I'm sure I'll be fine.
我知道怎么逼自己。
I know how to push myself.
我的身体能扛得住。
My body will handle it.
所以，你知道，结果就是他们一味往前冲，突然就遇到麻烦了，开始感觉到这些不良反应。
And so, you know, that so happens that they just push and all of a sudden you run into trouble and you start to feel these adverse effects.
所以，是的，我觉得对每个人来说，了解一下上面会发生什么、该有什么预期，都是有好处的。
So, yeah, I think for everybody, it's good to just know what what is happening up there and what to expect.
但是，传统的适应高海拔的策略其实就是循序渐进，逐步上升到更高的高度。
But then whatever what what are the traditional acclimatization strategies is really to take it progressively to do sort of greatest ascent to higher levels.
现在我们接着聊聊高海拔和极高海拔。
Now we then talk actually about the the high and extreme altitude.
相比上次，上次播客我们聊的是中等海拔，可能最高也就四千米或五千米。
So compared to the last time, the last podcast we spoke about that moderate altitude, maybe maximum four or 5,000 meters.
但这次，我们实际上说的是更高的山，比如那些大山脉。
But here, we actually are talking about the higher mountains like the great ranges.
比如喀喇昆仑山脉、MIS，还有德纳利峰，某种程度上雷尼尔山也算，但我觉得可能有点边缘。
So the Karakorum, MIS, but also Denali, to some extent Rainier, but I think it's maybe kind of that borderline.
不完全是。
Not some yeah.
可能像阿空加瓜这些山，五六千米的高度。
Maybe Akonkagwa and these mountains, like, five, six thousand meters.
那真的是相当高了，我们得确保身体有足够的时间来适应。
That's really, you know, considerable, and we need to really make sure that you the body has enough time to actually acclimatize.
这样的海拔确实会大大影响我们的表现。
It's really that kind of altitude that will affect our performance a lot.
是啊，人们攀登这些山已经好几十年了，甚至可能有一个世纪了，当时人们开始去那里做研究之类的。我住在夏慕尼，这里就有这样的历史。
And so so, yeah, I mean, people have been climbing these mountains for, well, many decades now, but even maybe a century when people actually started to go there for some kind of research or I know that there is a history here in Chamonix where I live.
这些探险家和研究者，因为以前的夏慕尼只是牧场，冰川一直延伸到山谷下面。
These these explorers and researchers because before Chamonix, that was just pastures and glaciers were all the way down the valley.
那里非常荒凉，但没人真的想上山，因为，干嘛要去呢？
It was super wild, but nobody really want was going up to the mountains because, well, why would you?
但现在，旅游和登山成了主要原因，真的有成千上万的人可能会去那些高海拔地区。
And but now, tourism and and, yeah, other other I guess, the tourism or mountaineering really is is the minor main reason why actually millions of people potentially go to to these altitudes.
所以自然而然，人们注意到海拔对身体、健康和表现的不良影响，然后他们发现，确实需要放慢节奏。
And so naturally, people noticed the the adverse effects of altitude on the body, on the health, on on the performance, and they noticed that, okay, that you really need to slow things down.
你需要放慢步伐。
You need to slow down the pace.
你需要放慢在山上前进的速度。
You need to slow down your progression on the mountain.
所以这就是我们讨论的第一个策略，也就是缓慢渐进地爬升。
And so that's actually where we talk about the first strategy related to through the slow and graded ascent.
现在公认的常见规则就是每天大约升高500米的海拔。
And the kind of common rule that is that is that is kinda taken for granted these days is about 500 meters elevation gain per day.
换算成英尺是多少呢？
What is it in feet maybe?
这个值得知道。
That's good to know.
就是
Just
对。
Yeah.
那大概就是3000英尺。
So that would be it's about 3,000 feet.
可能是1600英尺吧？
It's maybe 1,600?
不是。
No.
哦，抱歉。
It or I'm sorry.
是的。
Yes.
300米大概就是……
300 meters is about totally up.
300米大约是1200英尺。
300 meters is about 1,200 feet.
所以我们大概是在说
So we're probably talking about
我觉得是1,600英尺。
I think 1,600 feet.
两千六吧，可能比1,600稍微多一点。
Two two thousand six maybe a little bit more than 1,600.
大概是1,800左右。
Maybe, like, 1,800.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
好的。
Yeah.
但是我觉得通常来说，当你走进那些山谷的时候，比如昆布谷，现在很多人去珠峰大本营都走那里，而且现在正好是那个季节。
But but I think it's it's really usually, when you go up those valleys, like, for example, Kumbu Valley where many people are now going to Everest Base Camp and well, that's that's really now the season.
所以你会从卢卡拉出发，那里有机场，你降落后，就开始沿着这条长长的山谷往上走。
So you you are going from Lukla, where is the airport, you land there, and then you start walking up this long valley.
而且，自然地，那条上坡的路和山谷的走向，你自然而然地每天走个十到十五公里，海拔也会上升那么多。
And, naturally, that that ascend to the the incline of the trails and the way the the the valley goes, you are naturally doing like ten, fifteen kilometers and about about that elevation gain.
然后自然，你会在村庄停下来，向导会带你到那里。
And naturally, then you stop in the village and the guides, they will guide you there.
他们不会让你继续往前，因为当然，你可以一路走到南崎巴扎，那是上面主要的村庄。
They they will not push you further because, of course, you can go all the way to Namche Bazaar, which is then the main village up there.
但那海拔上升超过两千米。
But that's that's more than 2,000 meters elevation gain.
所以对大多数人来说，这很可能已经会带来一些影响，一些不好的症状，比如睡眠不好、头痛之类的。
So that for most people already most likely would bring some some effects, some bad symptoms, bad sleep, and headache, and stuff like that.
所以你真的要避免这种情况，一天一天来，逐渐适应海拔。
So you really want to avoid that and just take it day by day and gradually gaining that altitude.
但到那个时候，因为你的身体肯定在适应高海拔，并且我们之前也说过，这是一个挺有压力的过程。
But possibly then, because your body is, of course, going through that process of acclimatization, and we talked about this before, it's quite a stressful process.
在高海拔地区，整体上也会带来很多的氧化应激。
It brings a lot of oxidative stress as well in general to be at that altitude.
氧化应激比平时更重，所以真的得考虑到这一点，放慢节奏，多加一个休息日。
There is more of the oxidative stress than usual, and so it's really good to take that into account and take it easy, take an extra rest day.
所以通常每两三天，你就会在一个地方多待一会儿，放慢节奏，或者到达那种更大的村子，比如南池市场，在那里多住一天一晚，然后再每天往上去徒步。
So usually, every two, three days, you actually stay at that one one place and and take it easier, or you just reach that bigger village like Namche Bazaar, for example, and you stay there for one day, one night extra, and then you just do the daily hike above.
通常人们会去珠峰景观酒店，那是第一个能看到珠峰的地方。
Usually, people go to that Everest Hotel view, which is actually the first point you see Everest from there.
当然，还有其他的山峰，比如阿马达布朗和别的。
So and other mountains, of course, Ahmedabad and others.
不过，对，那确实是第一次见到珠峰的时候。
But, yeah, that's actually the first, moment you you see Everest.
那真的是非常让人动容的时刻。
It's quite it's quite emotional.
可能是吧。
It can be.
但然后你就回到村里，在海,拔低一点的地方多睡一晚。
But then you just come down back to the the village, and you sleep an extra night in that lower altitude.
所以我觉得这基本上就是基本策略。
So I guess that's that's really what what this the basic strategy is.
然后最后，如果谈到珠峰的话。
And then eventually, if you we talk about Everest.
珠峰大本营在尼泊尔南侧海拔至少5300米。
So the Everest Base Camp is to 5,300 meters at least on the South side in Nepal.
所以人们通常要花十到十二天才到那里。
And so people usually take ten, twelve days to actually get there.
在路上，他们可能会去那些适应海拔的徒步。
And so on the way, they maybe go to these acclimatization hikes.
同样，他们到达一个村庄，你总是可以在上面做一个500米海拔爬升的徒步。
So, again, they reach a village, and you can always do, like, a 500 meter elevation gain hike above it.
周围有很多小路。
There are so many trails around.
所以这通常就是策略。
So that's usually the strategy.
你就在这些路上走走。
And you just kinda walk around the trails.
那里有很多徒步路线，而且你确实在逐渐升高海拔。
There is a lot of tracking options there, and you really are gaining more and more altitude.
从卢卡拉开始，卢卡拉海拔大概2300米，我记得是2300米。
So starting at Lukla, in Lukla, which is 2300, I believe, 2300 meters.
然后你确实会走到3000米、4000米的高度，大部分山谷都在那个高度，你就是在不断适应，身体也在不断调整，红细胞比容增加，就像我们之前说的，这需要几天几周的时间，而且实际上会持续增加。
So you are really then moving to 3,000, 4,000 meters, and so most of the valleys are at that level, and and you are just gaining more and more of that acclimatization, all those adaptations, increased hematocrit, which as we talked before, takes days and weeks, and it's actually keep keeps increasing.
所以等你到达大本营的时候，就像我说的，海拔大概在5300米左右。
And so by the time you reach to a base camp, as I as I said, it was it it is around 5,300 meters altitude.
所以到那时，你应该已经适应那个高度了。
So by the time you you should be acclimatized to that level.
然后，当然，那只是第一阶段。
And then, of course, that's the first stage.
那真的是最初的十天到两周，之后你就适应了。
That's really the first ten days, two weeks, and then you're okay to this.
如果你真的加速，直接冲到那个高度，大多数人会生病，有些人甚至因此丧命。
If you really speed it up and you were straight you went straight to this level, most people would get sick or some people actually even died when they tried to.
我听说有人一两天就冲上去，完全没有适应，结果很糟糕。
I heard about, about people who just ran up there in one or two days without acclimatizing at all and, yeah, went badly.
他们就在睡梦中去世了。
They just died in their sleep or something.
身体就是承受不住，所以这确实可能发生。
The body just didn't do it, so it can definitely happen.
所以这就是为什么慢慢来真的很重要。
And so that's why it's really important to to take it slowly.
我想说的是，也许确实可以更快到达那里，但回到适应的过程，身体里发生的一系列适应变化，重要的是要理解并记住，有些适应需要几天、几周甚至几个月。
I think what I would like to say, it might be actually possible to get there faster, but, again, the the back to the timeline of adaptations, the whole cascade of adaptations that happen in the body, What is important to understand and maybe just remember, they take days and weeks and months, some of them.
所以真的需要给身体一点时间。
So it just really need to give body the time.
然后顺着这个节奏来，到了之后，对，接下来当然就是适应更高的海拔了。
And and then just follow along and and once you get there, then, yeah, that's next stage, actually, to, of course, acclimatize to the higher levels on on the mountain.
明白了。
Gotcha.
那传统的策略是怎样的呢？比如从时间上看，登德纳利峰、阿空加瓜山，还有7000米以上和8000米以上的山峰，分别需要多久？
So what for traditional strategies, say, we'll do the what does it look like time wise for Denali, Acuan Kagua, and then 7,000 meters and higher, and then 8,000 meters and higher?
那些时间具体是怎样的呢？
What are those time what's that time look like?
其实，探险公司会根据自然规律来安排行程的时间。
Well, it's it's kind of naturally evolved actually that the expedition companies even offer the trips for a given time.
我觉得这基本上就是最健康、也最合理的时间安排，毕竟大家都想尽快到达目的地，完成任务后回家。
And I think it's actually just the the least amount of time that is sort of healthy, I think, because, you know, everybody would just get there, get it done, and go home.
不过就像我上次提到的，比如勃朗峰那边，有些公司或向导会带你用四五天就冲顶上去。
But as I mentioned last time, we talked about Montblanc, for example, that, you know, keep people actually come here and some of the companies or guides, they take you up there in four or five days.
有些人甚至用更短的时间，那其实我们真的不太谨慎。
Some of them even in shorter time, and that's, you know, just we really, playing it not very carefully.
但可能多一天，比如头一两天，你只是去三千五百米快速适应一下，但真的就是头一两天，这能让你不生病。
But it may be that one extra day, like, first one or two days, you just go to three three thousand five hundred meters to acclimatize quickly, but it's really just that first one day or two, and that will allow you to not actually get sick.
所以关键就是一开始别生病，然后顺利登顶。
So it's really that first first point discovered not to get sick and just get to the summit.
但当然，你不能指望奇迹。
But, of course, you cannot expect miracles.
你的表现会一般般。
You'll your performance will be average.
如果你睡在小屋里，可能真的会觉得不太舒服。
You might actually feel not so great if you sleep in the hut.
你的睡眠可能会很糟糕。
Your your sleep might be really bad.
所以我真的建议你来霞慕尼，至少待一周，爬一些低一点的山，好好适应一下。
So I would def definitely recommend to to come to Chamonix and just spend here at least one week and really to climb some lower mountain and and acclimatize.
所以说到了更高的山，比如阿空加瓜，我几年前去的时候待了差不多二十天，从逻辑上讲，那段时间足够适应海拔了。
So when we then talk about the higher mountains like Akonkagwa, so when I was there a couple years ago, I was there almost twenty days, and that that was quite enough time to acclimatize logically.
但我也希望自己能待得更久一些，因为对于那次表现来说，我知道自己还在逐步适应中。
But, also, I I wish I could actually stay there longer because also for that performance, I I knew that I was still acclimatizing.
但是，就拿阿空加瓜来说，我觉得大多数公司大概设定为两周，有时候是三周。
But, let's say for a Kungkagawa, most companies, I think, aim for about two weeks, sometimes three weeks.
但进入阿空加瓜国家公园的登山许可，从进公园到出公园，其实就有二十天。
But the permit for the mountain when you enter the national park on Akonkagawa, and then you leave the park, so you have twenty days.
我觉得自从我上次去过之后，这规定一直没变。
I I think that hasn't changed since I was there last time.
所以，你可以在那边待二十天。
So that you you are you can be there twenty days.
因此从逻辑上讲，他们肯定清楚，对于这座接近七千米的高峰来说，二十天足以让人适应高原了。
So also, logically, they must know that that's enough for this almost 7,000 meter mountain for people to be agglomerized.
不过，对，就是知道有些公司会尝试让你在十天到十二天内冲顶。
But, yeah, just knowing that some companies will try to make you summit in maybe ten days to twelve days.
阿空加瓜山确实以天气恶劣出名。
Calcumcagua definitely is known for bad weather.
那里风特别大，所以你得等合适的登顶时机，尤其是要考虑风、风寒效应、寒冷，有时候甚至还会下雪。
It can be super windy, so you need to wait for the summit window, especially with the wind and wind chill, the cold, or sometimes even snow, of course.
但如果你真的时间不够了，那就只能把那些理想的适应策略都抛到脑后了。
But then, you know, if you really are running out of time, then you have to just kind of throw this all these acclimatization strategies that are ideal.
干脆全扔了，直接冲顶，哪怕你知道自己其实还没完全适应。
Just throw them out of the window kind of, and and then you just go for it even though you know that you're really, still not exactly acclimatized.
不过那边的策略其实跟我刚才说的珠峰大本营差不多。
But the strategy up there is really, similar to what I just talked about for with Everest Base Camp.
你先坐车到大概3000米的地方，然后开始沿着山谷徒步往上走，到第一个营地大概能爬升六七百米。
So you arrive to about 3,000 meters by car, and then you start walking trekking up the valley, and you really gain maximum six, seven hundred meters to the first camp.
第二天，大家通常会在那儿住一晚，然后徒步绕到阿空加瓜山的南侧，再回到营地住下。
The next day, people usually stay there actually to sleep, and then you walk, do this trekking trip over to the South Side of Wakongkagwa, come back to the camp and stay there.
我觉得大概是从3000米到3700米左右吧。
I think it's about 3,000 to maybe 700 meters.
我记不太清了。
I don't I don't remember exactly.
但你当时还是待在安全区域，多待了一天。
But you're still you were still staying in the safe zone and spending an extra day.
然后第三天，你往大本营走，那边海拔是4300米。
And then day three, you are walking towards the base camp, which is 4,300 on this on the on the side.
所以，就像我们说的，你自然是在慢慢爬升那个海拔。
And so, naturally, you're just gaining gradually that that altitude again as we talked about.
这是最理想的情况。
That's the ideal situation.
从那里开始，你通常会多休息一天。
And from there, you usually take an extra rest day.
然后从那里开始，你进行轮换，回到大本营，那已经是第六天、第七天了，所以一周自然就过去了。
And from there, you do the rotations, come back to the base camp, and that's already, you know, like, day six, day seven so that one week is done naturally.
然后你才真正开始上山。
And then you actually start going up the mountain.
而且通常，那些公司不会马虎的。
And usually, the the companies don't mess around.
他们实际上会开始从营地到营地攀登，然后尝试登顶。
They actually start start the ascent of the mountain camp to camp, and they they try to summit.
所以进展真的很快。
So it really goes quickly.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Good.
对。
Yeah.
然后我觉得通常下山是相当快的。
Then I think it's usually, it's it's really quite a fast descent.
所以对于我那些准备攀登Kokongkawa的客户来说，因为这座山确实很难。
So for my clients who are preparing for a Kokongkawa, in this case, specific mountain, because it's it is a tough one.
这座山很大，但感觉不出来。
It is a big mountain, and it doesn't feel like it.
技术上讲，我的意思是，它并不难，但海拔真的很高。
Technically, isn't I mean, it's not difficult, but it is really, high altitude.
所以我会在那之前试着让客户做好准备，这样他们实际上就已经预先适应了。
And so I try to prepare the clients before that so you actually are preacclimatizing.
对吧？
Right?
所以你实际上要花时间待在真实海拔或模拟海拔里，这个我们后面再聊。
So you actually are trying to spend some time in the real altitude or the simulated, which we will talk about later.
德纳利峰，通常公司或人们去那里都是三周。
Denali, usually, the companies or people go there for three weeks.
德纳利峰，对。
Denali is Yeah.
通常是这样，所以你真的需要提前把身体状态准备好。
Often, so you really want to be ready physically.
准备方式截然不同，不过我觉得其他播客已经专门聊过Denali了。
That's a whole different level how to prepare, but I think there there were other podcasts talking about specifically Denali.
他们会讨论需要什么条件，哪些因素真正决定你在那里的表现。
What would they what it takes, what factors are the really the determinants of of of of your performance there.
但咱们还是来聊聊高海拔吧。
But let's talk about the altitude.
首先你会降落在冰川上，那个高度其实不算特别高。
So you are landing on that glacier first, and that's not really high very high.
大概两千米、三千米左右吧。
I think it's about two, three thousand meters.
然后你会慢慢往上走，但那里的体力消耗非常关键。
And then you gradually go up, but the physical effort there is very important.
所以你真的要为此做好充分准备。
So you you need to really be ready for that.
你会把自己逼得很紧。
You are pushing yourself very hard.
你背着自己所有的重量。
You're carrying your weight.
我是说，你背包里的重量，还有所有的装备。
I mean, your the weight in, like, the backpack, everything, all your equipment.
你通常是自己背着，还要拖着雪橇。
You usually are carrying yourself and pulling it on in the slot.
所以那是个巨大的体力消耗，而且你还要逐渐爬升到更高的营地。
So it's a huge physical effort, and actually then you're doing that graded ascent to the higher camps.
但通常你有挺多时间适应高海拔。
But usually, you have quite a long lot of time to acclimatize.
尽管如此，所有这些因素加起来，天气、寒冷、那里的条件，你真的要确保自己准备好了，不过我觉得大多数公司对适应的时间安排得挺好的。
But still, the combination of everything, the weather, the colds, the the conditions there, you you want to really make sure that you're ready, but, I think most of the companies manage this quite well with the timing for to acclimatize.
所以要知道，整个时间大概是两到三周。
So but it's just good to know that now that the time frame is about two, three weeks.
那应该是足够的。
So that should be enough.
再说回我们之前聊过的，海拔和气压的关系。在地球上越往北或越往南走，气压就会变化。
Again, as as we talked about it before, altitude, as it's a function of the barometric pressure, the further you go to the north or to the south on Earth, the barometric pressure changes.
这和空气的温度有关。
It's related to, the temperature, of, of the air.
所以越冷，气压就越低。
So the colder it gets, the lower the pressure.
越热，空气分子就越密集。
The hotter it gets, the air I mean, the, yeah, the the gas, actually, the gas molecules, are denser with heat.
所以，我们都注意到，比如赤道附近的山，和德纳利山相比，同样的海拔感觉不一样。
So, we can we've been we all observed that actually mountains, for example, equator, close to equator, they the the altitude doesn't feel the same like Denali.
德纳利山在很北的地方，而且非常冷。
Denali is really far up north, and, it's very cold.
所以，即使它只有6200米，感觉上绝对像7000米甚至更高。
So, even if it's only 6,200 meters, it definitely feels like a 7,000 or at least.
所以，在这些山上，了解这一点是很有好处的。
So it's quite good to good good to be aware of that on these on these mountains.
然后我们说到更高的山，凡是比科卡瓦高的都在亚洲。
And then we when we then talk about higher mountains, so anything higher than a Kokkagwa is in Asia.
所以科卡瓦是亚洲以外最高的山。
So Kokkagwa is the highest highest mountain outside of Asia.
所以所有七千米和八千米的山峰，要么在巴基斯坦的喀喇昆仑，要么在喜马拉雅，还有一些在吉尔吉斯斯坦那些国家。
So all the 7,000 meter peaks and 8,000 meter peaks are either in Pakistan, in Karakorum, or or Himalayas, then some of them also in the in the in Kyrgyzstan and the those countries.
帕米尔那里，我记得有五座。
So Pamir, there I think there are five five of them.
要知道，现在我们说的是极端海拔。
Just know that, of course, now we talk about the extreme altitude.
超过七千米的山都非常危险，所以我们肯定需要花更多时间来适应那个高度。
Anything above 7,000 meters is very serious, and so we definitely need to spend more time to be acclimatizing to those to those levels.
所以，我建议至少三周，甚至更久，因为通常那些山都很偏远，路上要花不少时间。
So, I would say at least three weeks, but if if not more because all the traveling, usually, the mountains are quite remote, so it takes a while to get there.
就是说，你从家出发，可能一周后才到，而且那还只是大本营。
Mean, then you get there maybe after one week leaving your home, and then you're actually only at the base camp.
所以你真的需要适应高海拔。
So then you really need to acclimatize.
通常，从大本营或者从山谷底部到山顶，海拔上升非常剧烈。
Usually, it's quite a dramatic elevation gain from the base from the base camp, from the valley floor to the top.
你得爬两三千米，有些山甚至更高。
You got two, three thousand meters, sometimes even more on some of the mountains.
所以你可以想象，登顶的过程会花很长时间。
And so you can imagine then the ascent will take a long time.
而且你爬得越高，对你的表现影响就越严重，所以你需要投入更多时间。
And more and higher and higher you go, the effect on your performance will be will be more serious, and so you just need to invest more time.
比如登珠峰，即使有辅助氧气，通常也需要至少六周，但一般要七到八周。
So normal ascent of Everest, for example, even with supplemental oxygen takes at least six weeks, but usually, it's seven or eight weeks.
这可不是短期的承诺。
It's not it's not a short commitment.
你必须愿意投入时间，再加上之前的所有训练。
You've gotta be willing to to put in the time plus all of the training before that.
所以，是的，我觉得在这方面现实一点比较好。
So, yeah, I think it's good to be realistic on that regard.
当然。
Definitely.
对。
Yes.
我觉得，你知道，在Uphill Athlete，我们有客户，是那些以这些山为目标的运动员，所以我们自然会和他们讨论这个。
I think then, you know, we we in Uphill Athlete, we have our clients, athletes who are aiming for these mountains, so we naturally talk to them about this.
所以，我觉得也有必要提一下，应该提前多久开始为实际攀登做身体训练。
And so I think it's also worth mentioning how how far away from the actual climb should you start physically training.
对吧？
Right?
所以，实际上这也取决于那个。
So it actually also is a function of that.
山越高，情况越严峻，体能因素的重要性就越大。
The higher the mountain, the more serious it is, the bigger the the bigger the factor of fitness is.
所以，你看，确实值得开始认真训练，真正去了解你的身体是如何运作的。
So, you know, it it definitely it's definitely worth work starting to work properly and really start to understand how your body works.
而且因为所有这些体能都会随着海拔升高而下降。
And then because all that fitness will will go down with altitude.
这是最难处理的部分。
You're that that's that's the tricky part.
对吧？
Right?
所以你肯定要以最好的状态到达山上，因为那种能力、有氧能力和整体体能，都会被打折扣。
So you definitely want to arrive to the mountain as fit as possible because that capacity or Arabic capacity and the whole fitness, it will will be, yeah, will be cut down.
所以真的值得尽最大努力去准备。
And so it's it's really definitely worth to prepare as much as you can.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我可能能代表大多数教练说，当客户跟你说，嘿，我有个长期目标，打算几年后去爬珠峰，那真的让人很欣慰。
I mean, I think I can probably speak for most coaches when it is very relieving when you have a client that says, hey.
而不是那种，嘿，
I have a a long term goal of climbing Everest in a couple of years versus, hey.
我想六个月之内搞定。
I wanna do it in six months.
这种时间线更现实，也说明人家是真心投入、有长远打算的，而不是光想着一时的痛快。
It's just a a more realistic timeline also shows there's a deep level of dedication to thinking long term versus the more immediate gratification of a a shorter time time zone.
对。
Yeah.
确实，
Definitely.
我觉得这其实是我们做这行的人要承担的一个不小的教育责任，而且这也是我特别喜欢的部分，就是想方设法让客户、让我的运动员搞清楚到底需要付出什么，并且真的去选一些不同的山来一步步打基础。
I think it's a like, a quite a big educational aspect of this job that we try to do here, and and it's also the the part I actually like a lot, you know, just try to show the people show the clients, my athletes, so what it takes and actually pick some different mountains to actually build that build up that level.
第一，体能上的准备。
One, the physical the physical preparation.
但当然，登山也是一项技术性很强的运动，技能、装备管理、了解自己，还有应对各种环境条件的能力，这些都超级重要。
But also, of course, mountaineering is a is a sport where the technical aspect is super important, the the skills and and all that management gear, not knowing yourself, and and, you know, just really being able to deal with the the conditions.
所以，是的，这涉及很多因素，如果我们有足够的时间来逐步建立，那肯定有帮助。
And so, yeah, it's it's multifactorial, and so it definitely helps if we have enough time to build Yeah.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这里面涉及的方面太多了。
There's there's so many pieces to it.
但其中一个方面，我觉得很适合聊聊，就是高海拔登山者的心肺适能。
But one of those pieces, which I think is a great place to to touch on is cardiorespiratory fitness for high altitude mountaineers.
你能谈谈吗？比如在Uphill Athlete，我们不太常讨论最大摄氧量。
And can you get into what like, at Uphill Athlete, we don't talk a ton about v o two max.
我们更关注乳酸水平。
We tend to focus a little bit more on, lactate levels.
但在这个案例中，最大摄氧量是衡量我们体能的一个非常有趣的方式，而且海拔对最大摄氧量有显著影响。
But in this case, v o two max is a really interesting way of measuring our fitness and, also, altitude has a significant effect on v o two max.
所以很想听听你的看法。
So love to hear more about that from you.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That's exactly.
而且我觉得在Uphill Athlete，我们主要想强调次最大表现的重要性。
And I think at Athlete, we mostly try to maybe emphasize the importance of the of the sub maximal performance.
对吧？
Right?
所以主要是二区，然后可能还有一些高强度的训练。
So mostly that zone two and and then the maybe some of the higher intensity.
但对大多数人来说，最重要的当然是个体差异。
But what is most important for most people, of course, it's individual.
对吧？
Right?
我们是一对一地为每位运动员制定方案，但你真正需要的是强大的有氧能力。
We we deal with each each with each athlete individually, but what do you really need to have is the large Arabic capacity.
而最大摄氧量，其实就是最大有氧能力。
But the the VO max really, what what is that is the maximum Arabic capacity.
也就是说，你的身体实际能摄入、输送和利用多少氧气。
So how much oxygen can you actually, get at gets to your body, distribute, and utilize.
对吧？
Right?
所以这是最大值。
So it's the it's the maximum.
它实际上定义了你有氧适能的上限。
It's actually defining your your gun at the cap, the the top of of your Arabic fitness.
所以，当然，我们永远不会——嗯，更可能的是，我们不会在山上达到那个水平，或者你不会达到那个强度。
And so, of course, we will never well, better likely that we will not be doing that on the mountain or you will not be reaching that level or you or your the intensity.
但当然，你总是会处于那个，比如，部分利用的状态，这大致就是乳酸阈值或低于它，或是它的某个百分比。
But, of course, you will always be at that, like, a fractional, utilization, which is which is more or less the lactate threshold or below or some percentage of it.
对吧？
Right?
所以我觉得从这个意义上说，首先了解你的最大摄氧量实际是多少是有用的。
So I think in that sense, it's useful to know what your VO max actually is, first of all.
但与其他耐力运动相比，它不是一个那么重要的因素，我想这就是我们在Uphill Athlete的观点。
But compared to other endurance sports, it's it's less of a factor that's, I think, where we come coming from within Uphill Athlete.
因为，比如，在低海拔地区跑步、骑行等耐力运动中，科学表明，表现的主要决定因素是最大摄氧量、利用率（即乳酸阈值）以及跑步经济性或骑行经济性。
So because, like, running in your within in your end sports, running, cycling, in low low altitude, of course, the there's the science saying that the main determinants of performance are the b o max, the fraction utilization, which is the luxury threshold, and the running economy or cycling economy.
但在这里，我们来谈谈这个。
But here, let's talk about it.
那么在高海拔地区，实际上会发生什么呢？
What actually happens then with at high altitude?
所以这就是研究一直在做的方向。
So that's where research has been.
研究人员和科学家们其实从一开始就在测试这个，自从那帮人上去之后，就一直在试图搞清楚到底发生了什么。
The the researchers, scientists, they have been actually testing it for as well since the beginning, since actually the the glimmer went up there and, just really trying to find out what was going on.
所以我觉得，有些有趣的点可以让我们真正理解到底发生了什么。
And so I think that's it's there are some fun points just to realize what what actually happens.
因为我已经提到过，在高海拔地区，整体表现会下降。
Because I already spoke about the Arabic performance generally going down.
实际上，对所有人来说，表现都会下降。
Generally, actually, for for all all people, it's just going down.
你会明显感觉到这一点。
It hits you.
对吧？
Right?
所以，再回到气压下降这个话题。
So, again, back to the barometric pressure is decreasing.
实际上，产生影响的是空气分子的密度，特别是氧气。
What does the effect is actually the density of the molecules of the air of of and for one, the oxygen.
那正是我们需要的。
That is the one we need.
所以，突然之间，比如你到了5000米的高度，如果我没记错的话，气压大约是海平面的60%。
And so, all of a sudden, when you're at 5,000 meters, for example so if I'm not mistaken here, it's about 60%, of, the barometric pressure.
这并不完全对应着你的有氧能力下降60%，但我想你可以想象，差不多就是接近一半了。
It doesn't exactly correlate to that a euro on 60% of your aerobic capacity, but I think you can imagine that it's pretty close that you're almost on on at half.
对吧？
Right?
当你站在珠穆朗玛峰上，没有使用辅助氧气的话，那当然会影响一切。
When you stand on Everest without utilizing the supplemental oxygen, that, of course, affects everything.
但没有氧气的话，你承受的气压只有海平面的30%。
But without oxygen, you're on 30% of barometric pressure compared to sea level.
所以想象一下，如果那真的在很大程度上影响你的有氧能力——虽然实际情况并不完全是这样。
So imagine then if that affects your Arabic capacity by that largely, which actually doesn't exactly work that way.
所以你可以想象，你肯定希望自己的有氧能力尽可能高，因为你爬得越高，你能用到的部分就越少。
So you can imagine that you definitely want to have your Arabic capacity as high as as you can because you you are you you will be at a very you will be working at a very small rate of it, the higher you go.
对吧？
Right?
所以，对你最有利的就是拥有最好的有氧能力，最大摄氧量，也就是VO2 max。
So it's in your best interest to to have the best possible, Arabic capacity and the maximum the is the the b o max.
科学上有些有趣的数据，当我们超过1500米时，每上升300米，最大摄氧量大约下降2%到3%。
So it has been, in the science, there there are some interesting numbers that, when we go above 1,500 meters, our VO max decreases, about about 2%, 3% every 300 meters of the additional increase.
所以它下降得很快，如果你……对。
So it's going down it's going down real fast if you if you Yeah.
如果你开始计算的话。
If you start counting.
对吧？
Right?
然后还有一些有趣的数据，比如在5000米的高度，我们谈论的是最大上坡速度。
So and then some other interesting numbers that if we are at in 5,000 meter level, so then we talk about the maximum uphill rate speed.
对我来说，我确实就是在那个海拔水平上训练的。
So I for me, I'm I'm really working in that level.
所以当我在越野跑、在夏蒙尼这边的山上训练或者在山里锻炼的时候，我其实不太看手表上配速，不按每公里多少分钟或者每英里多少分钟来算，因为那是平常跑步会用的。
So when when I'm trail running, when I'm doing my trainings, workouts in the mountains here around Chamonix or on the mountains, I don't really, measure my speed on my watch by minutes per kilometer or minutes per per miles, I guess, because that's usually what you do.
对吧？
Right?
不过当你……
When you're doing Yeah.
在平地上跑的时候。
Running on the flat.
那才是该看这个指标的时候。
That's the metric to go for.
对吧？
Right?
但是在山里，那样算其实没多大意义。
But, in the mountains, that doesn't really make much sense.
所以在山里的时候，知道自己每小时爬升多少海拔真的很有用。
So it's really good to know when you're in the mountains, what elevation gain you are doing per per hour.
这通常是你可以在手表上选择的那个指标。
That's usually the metric you can actually choose on your watch.
对我来说超级有帮助。
It's super helpful for me.
所以我知道如果每小时爬升一千米，那大概就是我的二区强度，差不多吧。
So I know that if I'm going at thousand meters per hour, that's sort of my zone two, more or less.
当然，这真的要看情况。
Depends really, of course.
海拔越高，这个数字反而会下降。
The higher I go then, it actually goes down.
对吧？
Right?
所以当我参加比赛，比如爬坡赛、垂直爬升赛的时候，这个数字当然就会上去了。
So, when I'm doing my my races, uphill races, vertical races, then, of course, this number goes up.
但对我来说，知道这个数字真的很有用，非常非常有用。
But it's really good for me to know super super useful number.
但比如我现在在尼泊尔，在海拔大约5000米的地方跑步时，你真的能看到这个数字是怎么变化的。
But then when I was now in Nepal, for example, and I was running at at that altitude around 5,000 meters, then you can really see how how is that changing.
对吧？
Right?
如果我能达到800，我就很开心了。
If I was at 800, I was happy.
你知道吗？
You know?
我能看到，如果我达到2000，那在夏蒙尼这里对我来说是正常速度，海拔2000米，比如在山谷里，但在那么高的海拔，感觉肯定不一样。
And I could see that, if I push 2,000, which is normal normal speed for me here in in Chamonix, which is 2,000 meters, like, down in the valley, well, definitely doesn't feel the same at that high altitude.
所以，知道这一点很好，对大多数人来说，当你背着背包徒步时，当然，你的装备会有一些重量。
So it's just good to know that for most people, when you're hiking with your backpack, of course, you have some weight of your gear.
所以，通常人们徒步时每小时爬升大约300到500米。
So, usually, people are hiking around 300, 500 meters of elevation gain per hour.
而且，这个实际上可以在实验室里测出来，做这个运动需要消耗一定的氧气，就是氧气的利用率，也就是这项运动的代谢成本。
And that actually, you can measure in the lab that this requires some some v o some oxygen, like, the oxygen utilization, the metabolic cost of that exercise.
对吧？
Right?
所以，基于这个，研究人员说，最大摄氧量大约每分钟每公斤50毫升，其实就是在5000米海拔能保持那个速度所需要的水平。
So, actually, based on that, the researchers said that the VO max around 50 milliliters is actually per minute per kilo is actually what is required to be able to do that speed at 5,000 meters.
这其实能给你一个概念，因为你可以去实验室测一下。
So that's actually giving you some idea because you can actually go to the lab.
你确实得去实验室，真的。
You need to go to the lab, actually.
这是唯一能得到你最大有氧能力，也就是最大摄氧量的精确评估的办法。
That's the only way to to have a precise precise assessment of your, maximum aerobic capacity, the VO max.
所以这可能是大家可以去做的事情，就是看看，哦，我的是40。
So maybe that's actually something that people can do and just to see, okay, I'm at 40.
那大概率在5000米海拔就没问题。
So that probably will be fine for 5,000 meters.
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但如果我想爬五六千米的高山，还想保持一个不错的速度，那我就得在这方面下功夫了。
But if I want to climb at five, six thousand and I still want to do a solid speed, then I will need to do something about it.
所以这就是训练的意义所在，通过训练，你确实可以提高最大摄氧量。
And so the that's that's where the training comes in, and you can you can definitely improve the the VIOMAX by training.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
完全同意。
Absolutely.
我很好奇。
I am curious.
比如说，因为1500米并不算高。
So say because 1,500 meters is not that high.
有没有实验室设在海拔1500米或更高的地方，让人们在那里接受测试？
Are there labs that are at or above 1,500 meters that people are being tested at?
那他们怎么解释这种下降呢？
And how do they account for the decline?
是不是就直接说，嘿，
Do you just say, hey.
因为我们在1700米，所以加1%？还是你对这个了解得多吗？
Add 1% to this because we're at 1,700 meters, or do you know much about that?
我觉得这是个好问题。
That's a I think that's a good question.
我其实不太清楚，但至少在我这边，我知道夏蒙尼附近的实验室其实在山谷里，海拔大概700米。
I don't really know, but I think at least in my area here, I know that the the lab close to Chamonix is down in the valley actually, and it's at 700 meters.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
山谷底部，那个城市其实海拔一千米左右，而且可能有点影响，我想，基于我们刚才聊的。
The the the the bottom of the valley, the city actually is in thousand meters altitude, and it might have a bit of a fact, I guess, you know, based on what we just talked about.
不过我觉得其实也就只有那么几个，你知道的，数字会非常低。
So but I think it's it's really only just a couple of you know, the the number will be very low.
所以我觉得，从逻辑上讲，大学里通常都有实验室，配备运动科学中心或者表现实验室，你知道的，他们需要考虑到这一点。
And so I think, logically, the universities, that's where usually the labs are with the sports science center or the performance lab, you know, they need to account for this.
因为就像我们上次播客里聊到的，1500米其实真的标志着，可能1800米，差不多就是那个水平，你真正去参加高原训练营，对吧，为了获得那些额外的收益，通常是为了增加血红蛋白，从而提升你的最大摄氧量。
Because as we talked about it in the last podcast, the 1,500 meters actually really marks maybe the 1,800 meters, kinda marks that level where you are actually going for a training camp to for an altitude camp, right, to get those additional gains, usually going ready for the increased hemoglobin and actually pushing your VO max by that.
你实际上是在增加血液的携氧能力。
You're actually increasing your oxygen carrying capacity of your blood.
所以那确实会提高最大摄氧量。
So that actually increases the VO max.
所以从这个角度来说，我觉得那些测试中心会告诉你，你知道的，从逻辑上讲。
So in that sense, I think those test centers would tell you, you know, logically speaking.
但我猜在美国，情况可能会有所不同。
But I guess in The States, might be different.
有些大学所在的城市，实际上就处于这样的海拔高度。
Some of the cities where the universities are, they are actually at at the at these altitudes.
关于那个。
About that.
对。
Yeah.
这可能有点棘手。
It might be tricky.
但然后我，对。
But then I Yeah.
肯定会告诉你。
Will tell you definitely.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我会很好奇，尤其是在科罗拉多州。
I would be curious, especially in Colorado.
我是说，我们的教练总监Chantel去的其中一个地方，海拔超过1500米不少。
I mean, one of where Chantel, our director of coaching went, is quite a bit over 1,500 meters.
所以我们需要和她核实一下，看看他们当时是怎么处理的。
So we'll have to check-in with her about what they accounted for on that.
那会很有趣，
It'll be interesting
听听她怎么说。
to hear.
对。
Yeah.
我敢肯定某个地方有公式。
I'm sure there's a formula somewhere.
关于提高最大摄氧量以及它带来的帮助，你还有什么最后的要点想补充的吗？
Any last pieces you wanna touch on with improving v o two max and how that can boost?
所以，再说一次，我不想让大家觉得最大摄氧量是绝对必须提升的东西。
So, again, I don't want people to think that, you know, I that the VO max is something that you absolutely need to improve.
当然，你想提高，但话说回来，训练还有很多方面。
Of course, you want to, but, again, it there there is a whole lot about training.
对吧？
Right?
所以，你肯定想把大部分时间花在所谓的极化训练上，大多数耐力运动员本来也是这样做的。
So the you definitely want to spend the most of your time as most endurance athletes do anyway with so called polarized training.
我的意思是，当然，这可能会根据不同的情况而改变。
I mean, maybe, of course, that can change, but, with with different scenarios.
但极化训练意味着你大部分时间都在较低强度区间。
But polarized training means that you really are spending most of your time in the lower zones.
比如说，中等强度区间，真正努力去提升你的有氧耐力，这绝对是次最大强度的。
Let let's say, moderate zones of intensity, really are trying to to work on your Arabic endurance, and that's definitely submaximal.
这也能提高你的最大摄氧量。
That also improves your b o max.
但实际上，还有一些特定的方法可以通过高强度训练来提高最大摄氧量，这是在有氧能力基础上的。
But, actually, then there are specific ways to improve that VO max that's that's on top of your aerobic capacity by doing high intensity work.
但我不希望大家觉得这是唯一的方法。
But I don't want people definitely not not don't think that it's the only way.
不是说你只能做这一件事。
That's the only thing you should do.
那样想就错了，你会……对。
That would be wrong, and you would yeah.
那会是个糟糕的计划。
That that would be a bad plan.
但我觉得提一下这个挺好的，让你心里有个数，知道到底需要什么样的水平。
But just I think it's good to touch on that and just to just to kinda have some numbers there in your mind, what actually does it take.
比如说，攀登珠穆朗玛峰，这座最高的山，不带氧气登顶需要什么条件？
And so for example, for Everest Climb, which is the highest mountain, what does it take to climb it without oxygen?
我们之前提到过，但我觉得到现在为止，大概有8000人登顶过。
So, you know, we we mentioned this before, but I think until the until to until this time or until today, it's about 8,000 people who climbed it.
但大多数人都是带着辅助氧气上去的，这其实相当于把海拔降到1500到2000米左右。
But most of them climbed it with supplemental oxygen, which really kind of brings you down to maybe 1,500, maybe 2,000 meters slower.
对吧？
Right?
所以你呼吸的氧气实际上让你感觉更低，这就是为什么大多数人能爬上那座山。
So the air the the oxygen you're breathing actually brings you lower, and that's what allows most of these people to actually climb that mountain.
没有补充氧气，情况就完全不同了，或者说完全是另一回事。
Without supplemental oxygen, it's quite a different beast, or actually entirely.
所以只有大约200人成功过。
So only 200 around 200 people have succeeded.
这是一项巨大的挑战，风险很高，而且需要很强的体能。
It's a big undertaking and very risky and but it takes a lot of physical capacity.
但再说一次，我觉得重要的是要总结一下，OMAX其实只是其中的一部分。
But, again, I I I think what is important maybe just to put a conclusion there is the OMAX is really just one part of it.
我觉得提一下并讨论一下是好的。
The just I think it's it was just good to mention and talk about it a bit.
总的来说，当你去爬这些高山或者去高海拔地区时，你确实需要尽可能保持最好的体能。
In general, you really want to be as fit as possible when you go for these mountains and for that high altitude.
那我们再聊聊适应高海拔的过程，以及身体需要做哪些调整，才能活下来、正常活动，然后还能快速前进。
But then let's talk more about that acclimatization and what's going on and to which adaptations you need to actually, one, survive and and be able to function and then go fast.
对吧？
Right?
因为，是的。
Because Yeah.
如果你身体不好，如果人们身体不好，然后上去那里。
If you are not fit, if the people are not fit, then go up there.
所以，再说一次，上坡的速度能让你很好地了解自己的状况。
So, again, that uphill speed, gives you pretty good idea where you are.
所以如果你在低海拔，在陡峭的山路上，连每小时300米的爬升都做不到。
So if you are at low altitude and you are not even make making maybe 300 meters per hour of elevation gain on some steeper hike, on some steep incline.
对吧？
Right?
所以，你知道，从A点到B点，或者从一个营地到另一个营地，会花很长时间。
So, you know, that it will take you quite a long time to actually go from point a and point b to the next village or from camp to camp.
想象一下，比如在6000米的高度，那会是什么情况。
So imagine what it will what it will take you at 6,000 meters, for example.
那样的话你就太慢了，会很危险，而且实际上可能根本做不到。
Then you're just taking too long, and it will be dangerous, and it will actually probably be impossible.
身体对高海拔的反应以及高海拔对表现的影响非常巨大、非常关键，所以你确实需要确保自己越来越快，才能保证安全，最终成功登顶。
The the the way the body reacts to that altitude and how that altitude affects your performance is so big, so important, then you really need to make sure that you are faster and faster to to, yeah, to be safe and to actually make it to the top.
是的。
Yes.
不是。
No.
这太关键了。
It's so key.
我的意思是，我们说的不只是完成比赛什么的。
I mean, when we are talking about we're not just talking about, hey.
我们说的是在极端条件下，真真切切的生死问题。
I finished the race or we're talking about very direct living or dying in extreme situations.
所以，是的，当我们真正进入这些高海拔地区时，这确实至关重要。
So, yeah, it's it's crucial when we're really getting into these much, much higher altitudes.
好的。
Alright.
这正好引出了我们今天对话的主要话题之一，那就是间歇性暴露于高海拔的用途和效果。
So that leads us perfectly into one of the main topics of the conversation today, which is use and effects of intermittent exposure to altitude.
那么，马丁，你能给我们讲讲这个吗？
So, Martin, can you take us into this?
好的。
Yes.
既然我们知道了适应这些高山需要多长时间，那么我们就可以制定一个策略，提前进行预适应。
So now that we know what, what time it takes to acclimatize for these big mountains, so, then we can actually create a strategy where we preacclimatize.
对吧？
Right?
通常，这些高山需要花费很多时间，你必须在那里待很长时间，所以你可能想提前适应，如果有机会的话，这样你就不需要在这些山上花费数周甚至数月的时间。
So usually, the these mountains takes so so much time to you have to really spend so much time over there that you might just want to try to acclimatize before if you can, if you have that opportunity, and so that you don't need to spend weeks and weeks and meet sometimes months, in in in those mountains.
所以，对大多数人来说，这当然是个大事，因为你得离开你的工作、生活和家人等等。
So, for most people, this is, of course, a big deal because you're just away from your business, from your life, from your family, etcetera.
所以，有不同的策略来应对这个问题。
So, differently, there are strategies to go, around it.
我想有两种选择：要么你住在山附近，这样你就能真正接触到高海拔。
So I guess the there are two options to to two options where either you live close to the mountains, so you actually have that real altitude available.
所以，在大多数情况下，我们讨论的是间歇性暴露于高海拔，因为你并不是所有时间都处于低氧状态，但真正重要的是低氧。
So then we actually talk about the intermittent exposures to altitude in most cases because you're not really spending all your pure time in hypoxia in altitude, but what actually matters is the hypoxia.
对吧？
Right?
低氧，为什么？因为那是身体感知到的。
The hypoxia why is that that's what the body senses.
身体本身并不感知海拔。
The body doesn't sense altitude as such.
实际上，它感知的是低氧。
It's actually the hypoxia.
所以，你吸入的氧气量减少了，身体会感知到这一点。
So the reduced amount of oxygen that you're breathing and and the body senses it.
血液中的氧气变少，而实际上，正是从这里开始，那些反应和一连串的适应机制开始启动。
There is less of oxygen in the blood, and that's where actually, the reaction and the cascades of, cascade of those adaptations starts to happen.
但想象一下，你周末去山里，甚至只去几个小时。
But then imagine you go to the mountains for the weekend or even for a couple of hours.
你坐缆车到夏蒙尼这里，上到南针峰，那是海拔3800米，你在那里滑雪。
You you take the lift up to here in Chamonix, you go up to Ecole De Midi, which is 3,800 meters, and you you ski up there.
但两三个小时、四小时之后，你又回到海拔1000米的地方。
But in two, three, four hours later, you're back down in thousand meters elevation.
就像我们之前说的，时间不够长，不足以带来任何这些适应。
And as we talked about it, that's not really significant enough to bring any of these adaptations.
所以，我们真正讨论的是间歇性低氧。
So then we're actually really talking about the intermittent hypoxia.
那么，这个方法行得通吗？
So can that work?
那够了吗？
Is that enough?
对，那是个很大的话题。
Well, that's that's a huge chapter Mhmm.
说起来，这个内容我们在这里没法详细讲。
Talk about, and we cannot really cover it here.
我只是想让人们明白，是的，在一定程度上，如果你在这里住一个季节，或者长期住下去，或者像在科罗拉多那种本身海拔就高的地方，你会慢慢适应的。
So I just want to know people to understand that, yes, to some extent, you will be acclimatized if you live here for a season or you just live here for long term or places in Colorado, I guess, where you are actually living already at at significant altitude, actually.
那够了吗？
Is that enough?
那你知道还需要多少呢？
Or, you know, how much do you need then?
如果你计划去阿空加瓜山，这样够吗？
Is it will that be enough to when you are planning to go to a Concacua?
就拿我之前的客户举例，上个季节，就是一月、二月，他们去了阿空加瓜山。
So for example, I had clients that that were going to a Concacua this last season in in January, February.
所以我们实际上安排了一些延长的周末，或者其实是一周。
And so we actually planned for some extended weekends or one week, actually.
他们去了科罗拉多州的几个地方，住在海拔3000米的酒店里。
They went to places in Colorado where they were actually in the hotel in 3,000 meters.
所以那确实是真实的高原暴露。
So that was actually a real altitude exposure.
而且还能结合很好的体能训练。
Also, being able to combine it with a really good physical training.
对吧？
Right?
你突然就有了很棒的选择，比如上山徒步等等。
You all of a sudden have great options going for the uphill hikes, etcetera.
所以，你知道，结合起来，这是一种很好的好处，实际上去真正的高原提前适应的好处。
So, you know, combined, it's a great kind of benefit, combined benefit to actually spend time, in the real altitude pre acclimatized.
但是，再说一次，当然也有一些代价。
But, again, it's there are some costs too, of course.
这确实要花钱，但这就是策略所在。
It costs you money, but the that's where the strategy comes in.
所以我们深入讨论过，然后说，好吧。
So we talked about it extensively and say, okay.
这将是最好策略，因为运动员真的很担心自己会对高海拔做出什么反应。
This is this will be the best strategy because, the athlete is really worried about how he's going to respond or she's going to respond to altitude.
对。
Yeah.
确实有不同的情况。
It really is different scenarios.
我的一些客户，他们住在海拔接近三千米的地方。
Some some of my clients, they live at altitude and at three close to 3,000 meters.
所以对他们来说，这是一个巨大的优势。
So for them, it's a huge advantage.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
所以，这是一个方面，你真的需要考虑你的选择是什么，要花多少钱，而且，实际上够不够？
So so that's one one kind of chapter where you really want to consider what are your options, how much is it going to cost you, and also, is that enough, actually?
这种海拔暴露是否真的足够让你适应，并且适应得足够好，以至于当你飞到山上，飞到那些大山，飞到国外的时候，你实际上能期待什么？
Is it actually enough of that altitude exposure for you to to to acclimatize and acclimatize enough then that when you fly to the mountains then to the big big mountains and to the foreign country, what can you actually expect?
你已经适应到什么程度了？
Are you to what level are you acclimatized already?
然后是第二个方面，就是常压模拟。
Then there is a second chapter, which is the normobaric one.
也许我们可以讨论一下这个。
So maybe we can discuss about that.
对。
Yeah.
让我们来谈谈不同类型的模拟海拔，对于那些无法去那些山，或者至少需要补充的人来说。
Let's get into what are the different types of simulated altitude that someone who doesn't have access to getting these mountains or at least needs to supplement.
他们有什么选择？
What are their options?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得，实际上大多数人可能不住在山区。
I think that, actually, most people, maybe they they don't live in the mountains.
对吧？
Right?
世界上大多数大城市都靠近海洋，并不真的是在山区。
The the most big cities, they are close to ocean, not not really the mountains and around the world.
但这并不意味着你就不去爬大山了。
So but it doesn't mean that you don't do go and climb the big mountains.
那我们能怎么办呢？
So how what can we do about it?
当然，最好的选择之一还是去山区，或者搬到山区去，但这肯定不是总能实现的。
Course, one of the best option is, again, to to go to the mountains and just, maybe move to mountainous area, but it's not always possible, of course.
所以，现在有一种叫做常压缺氧发生器的设备。
So, actually, there are nowadays, called normobaric, hypoxic generators.
为什么叫常压呢？
Why normobaric?
当我们说到低压时，低一般指的是某种东西更低。
So when we talk about hypobaric, hypo means in general something lower.
对吧？
Right?
而压指的是压力。
So baric is actually the the the pressure.
在这种情况下，就是大气压力。
In this case, the atmospheric pressure.
所以低压缺氧，其实就是因为大气压力较低导致的缺氧，就像在山上那样。
So hypobaric hypoxia is actually the hypoxia caused by the lower atmospheric pressure, which is the case in the mountains.
常压就是压力保持不变，但缺氧实际上是由发生器人为制造的，它们改变了空气中分子的比例。
Normal barric is that something is normal, so it's a that the pressure stays the same, but the hypoxia is actually, is actually, created artificially by generators that actually change the ratio of the molecules in the air.
所以通常来说，我们周围呼吸的空气，不管是在海平面、在5000米的高空，还是真的站在珠穆朗玛峰顶上，其实都没区别。
So usually well, usually, around us, the air we breathe, if we are at sea level or we are at 5,000 meters or we are actually on the top top of Everest, doesn't matter.
在所有气体分子中，氧气分子总是占到大约21%。
There is always around 21% of of oxygen molecules out of all the molecules of of the of of the gases, different gases.
最多的其实是氮气。
The most prevalent is the nitrogen.
大概占80%。
That's about 80%.
然后剩下的一小部分就是其他气体了，那些现在不重要。
And then there is a very small fraction of the other of the other gases that are not really important right now.
关键是氧气。
What matters is the oxygen.
这些发生器的作用呢，就是提高氮气的比例，同时降低氧气的比例。
So what these generators are actually doing here, they are actually increasing the ratio of the nitrogen and reducing them the the oxygen.
所以氧气含量就从21%往下一直降。
So you're going from 21% to then lower lower fraction.
我想如果我没记错的话，大约10%的氧气水平对应的海拔大概是五千米。
And I think if I'm not mistaken, around 10% level is about five to thousand meters.
所以每个氧气百分比都对应一个模拟的海拔高度。
So every percentage of oxygen has corresponding simulated altitude.
你是通过降低氧气来模拟高海拔的。
You're trying to simulate altitude by reducing the oxygen.
对吧？
Right?
所以这个方法已经用了大概几十年了。
So there has been this has been this has been used for for a cup couple of decades now.
所以这里也有一些舱室，实际上作为训练设施或者用于研究。
So there are also actually chambers chambers that actually are, functioning as a as a, well, kind of training facility or being used for research.
其中一些其实是低压舱，通过降低里面的压力来影响或导致缺氧。
Some of them are actually hypobaric, so they actually are reusing the the pressure in there and then actually affecting or causing the hypoxia.
但这种情况其实非常罕见。
But that's really rare, actually.
那做起来真的非常昂贵，也很复杂，所以通常这种设备只是用于研究。
That's that's very expensive and very complicated to to to make, and usually, it's done for a used for research.
但实际上，用得最多的是常压的那种。
But what is actually the most used is the normobaric one.
所以其实就是改变分子比例，现在你在健身房就能见到这些设备。
So you are then changing really the ratio of the molecules, and that you can find the facilities now in the gyms.
一些商业健身房，已经有这种设备了。
Some commercial gyms, they already have that.
这种设备其实还有其他不同的用途，不只是为了备战高海拔。比如说，你可以用来为越野赛做准备，或者就是想增加训练强度而已。你在海平面的城市里，只要去健身房，就可以相当于在海拔两千米的地方跑步了。
There are actually a different different uses for this as well, not only to prepare for high altitude, just saying that you can actually, prepare for your trail race or just basically trying to increase the stress of the exercise by, you know, you're in the city at sea level, and you just go to the gym and you will run at 2,000 meters.
所以你可以预期，这会有一些额外的训练效果。
So you can expect that there will be some additional effects to it.
但现在我们回到自己的场景里，在备战那些大山的时候，咱们该怎么用它呢？
But now what do we what do we can actually how we can use this in our scenario when we prepare for the big big mountains.
对吧？
Right?
所以也有那种可以带回家的设备，你把它接在一个面罩上，戴在脸上，然后呼吸这种低氧空气。
So there are also generators that you can bring home, and you connect it to to a mask that you put on your face, and you breathe this hypoxic air.
或者你有一个帐篷，把它套在头上。
Or you have a tent and you put it over your head.
就像一个小型版本，或者基本上就是一个大帐篷罩在你的床上。
It's like small version, or it's basically big big tent over your your bed.
设备实际上在改变空气，然后你就处于低氧状态了。
And generator is actually changing the air, and you're actually in hypoxia.
所以这就是常压低氧的训练方法，我们可以在家训练，当然，这是间歇性低氧，因为你不会整天都待在里面。
So this is the normobaric hypoxic strategies where we actually can be training at home and, of course, intermittent hypoxia because you're not staying there all all day.
对吧？
Right?
那不太可能，或者说，那也太极端了。
That's impossible or, I mean, that would be pretty extreme.
为什么要强调它是间歇性的呢？因为当你真的去高海拔山区时，你会先到山谷，从2千米、3千米开始，不管你是坐飞机、直升机还是开车到那儿，然后你再开始往上爬。
Why is it important to talk about it, like, in a way that it's intermittent is that when you go to the real mountains, you you go to to the valley, you start at 2,000, 3,000 meters where wherever it gets you to you get there by plane, by helicopter, or just, you know, by car, whatever, and then you start going up that altitude.
而且，实际上，你确实待在那里。
And, actually, you're staying there.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这就是关键点，使用低氧帐篷或低氧舱，你在里面待几个小时，然后出来呼吸正常空气。
So that's that's the important part where actually the use of hypoxic dense or the the chambers is that you spend some hours in there, and then you get out and you're you're breathing the the normal the normal air, of course.
所以，这是需要明白的重要区别，而且它确实有效。
So this is the important distinction to, to realize, and so, it still works.
当然，我们做的是类似间歇训练。
We, of course, do these like a sort of like an interval training.
我们进行低氧训练，然后工作。
We do a hypoxic training, and then we we work.
我们白天在外面，然后再回去。
We spend the day out, and, then we go back to it.
然后，当然，重要的是要知道，这有效吗？
And then, of course, it's important to know, does that work?
到什么程度？
To what extent?
我需要做多久？
How how long do I need to do this?
你知道吗？
You know?
这完全是另一个话题了。
And that that's that's the whole different chapter.
对。
Yeah.
这更取决于个人、探险的目标，以及你要去多高的地方。
That's much more specific to the individual, the goals of the expedition, how high you're going.
你知道，有太多因素了，我们没法在播客里直接告诉你做这个做那个，待多少小时，然后给你开个处方。
You know, there's so many factors that we can't, you know, say, do x, y, and z and be in it this many hours and such and and give you a prescription on a podcast.
但这就是像马丁这样的人发挥作用的地方，你可以通过Uphill Athlete雇佣他，把他当作资源来用。
But that's where people like Martin come into, play where you can use him as a resource by hiring him through Uphill Athlete.
很多登山向导公司，基本上所有向导公司，都有某种适应高海拔的方案，能让你提前适应。
Many of the guiding all pretty much all of the guiding companies have some kind of protocol, have the means to allow you to preacclimatize.
但我很好奇，高压低氧和常压低氧的效果是怎么被证实的？
But I'm curious how has it been shown that hyperbaric hypoxia and normobaric hypoxia work?
你好像有一些很酷的数据，比如，嘿。
You actually seem to have some pretty cool facts of of, like, hey.
这确实有效。
It does work.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
所以，通常研究是这样做的：你找一群人，先测他们的基础水平。
So, you know, usually, the research works that you take a group of people, you test them at the base level.
就是在低海拔的时候，然后带他们去某个高山小屋，或者，对，去珠峰大本营，或者其他能让你舒服地做研究的地方，真正对比基础水平和在高海拔的水平。
So the the low altitude, and then you take them to to some, whatever, mountain hut or, yeah, to to actually the Everest Base Camp or or other other places where you can actually really do the study in a comfortable way and really compare the base level base level and then the high level.
或者你在实验室里做这个测试程序。
Or you do the tray the the protocol or the the test, you actually do that in the lab.
对吧？
Right?
也就是说，你实际用到的是常压低氧。
So where you actually are using that norm normobaric hypoxic.
不过我觉得还是应该提一下他们发现了什么，或者这方面的研究有很多，但关键是要看看实际效果如何。
But I think it's good to just mention what what they have found or that there's been so many studies about this, but just to actually see what the effect is.
比如，每周五天，每天四小时的低氧暴露，不过这里用的是低气压低氧。
So, for example, five days per per week of hypoxia for four hours, which was actually hypobaric in this case.
所以这里我们说的并不是那种降低大气压力的方式，这种方法确实提升了有氧运动表现。
So we're not actually talking about that lower atmospheric pressure, that actually improved the Arabic performance.
也就是实际做一些体能测试。
So actually doing some kind of physical testing.
对吧？
Right?
他们让你骑自行车，然后测一些指标来评估他们的表现。
You were doing some bike, and they were measuring some some metrics to actually evaluate their performance.
所以第一天在低氧环境里，表现真的很差。
So first day in that hypoxia was really bad.
你知道的，你的表现下降了。
You know, your performance went down.
但经过这种高压低氧暴露之后，表现提升得非常明显，提升幅度很大。
But after this exposure to the hyperbaric hypoxia, that improved quite significantly, like, by by a large number.
然后是AMS，也就是急性高山病，需要评估一下。
Then the AMS, so that's usually the acute mountain sickness, you evaluate it.
基本上就是一份问卷，通常用的是那种路易斯问卷。
You basically have a questionnaire, the, like, whose questionnaire is usually the one you use.
所以你基本上就是在勾选，你有没有这些症状。
So you basically are, kinda ticking off the do you have any symptoms?
对吧？
Right?
所以，这是判断你是否有一定程度高原反应的最佳评估方式。
So, that's the best evaluation if you're experiencing the mountain sickness to to some degree.
而且，当你把那些没有适应高原的人带到大约三千米，甚至更高的地方时，当然，大多数人实际上都会出现不适。
And so, when you actually are take these people who are not acclimatized to about three thousand years, but higher it is, of course, then most of them actually will get sick.
在最后这一周的高压氧舱暴露之后，症状完全消失了，一点都没有了。
After this last one week of hyperbaric hypoxia, there was zero zero of of symptoms.
对吧？
Right?
所以这实际上表明，经过几天，理想情况下是一周甚至更长时间，主要效果就是我们之前讨论过的。
So there's a it actually shows you that after several days, maybe one week ideally and longer, The the main effect is we talked about it.
对吧？
Right?
高原反应完全消失了，所以这真的有效。
The AMS just disappeared, so it it really works.
我觉得人们问得最多的其实是，这种常压氧舱和低压氧舱的效果是不是一样。
I think the most what the people ask more often is actually does that normal barric work compared to the hypobaric one.
对吧？
Right?
我们在真实海拔的山上待一段时间后，适应过程是非常个体化的，这一点我们一直在强调，而且科学家们还在努力弄清楚为什么，因为适应过程因人而异，我们并不完全清楚原因。
The we we that when you spend some time in the mountains in the real altitude, you will acclimatize very individually because this is actually something we keep mentioning that acclimatization process is very individual, and we don't exactly know why the scientists are still trying to really fig figure that out.
那是什么呢？
What is it?
这跟什么有关呢？
What is it about?
这不仅仅是单一因素，而且跟体能无关。
It's not only it's a one factor, but it's not about physical fitness.
当然，去山上时，我们鼓励大家保持身体健康，这很重要。
Definitely to be physically fit, we encourage everybody to do that when you go for the mountains.
体能是个重要因素，但不是唯一的。
It's a big factor, but it's not the only one.
你知道，这很有趣，我见过一些例子。
You know, it's a like, I've seen it on funny.
确实是的。
It was.
我在那里工作过十二年。
I used to work up there for twelve years.
这真的是个很好的考验环境。
And that that's a really nice nice kind of testing testing, situation.
人们刚到这儿，坐个出租车或者公交车什么的，然后就说，哎呀，我们去山上看看吧。
You take people from they arrive here, they take a taxi or bus or whatever, and then, like, oh, let's go up there.
太棒了。
It's amazing.
肯定景色超美的。
It's gonna be amazing view and stuff.
从出发开始，二十分钟就能到海拔3800米。
And so from twenty minutes, it takes to 3,800 meters.
我是说，我在那儿见过的呕吐场面真是不少，跟你说，有时候我们确实得小心，但这很正常，人们还会晕倒。
I mean, the amount of, puke I've seen in my life over there, it's it's quite I can tell you, we get careful sometimes, but it's just normal, and people faint.
他们就直接倒在那儿了。
They just collapse right there on on on the spot.
你打开电梯门，就已经在3800米的高度了。
You you kinda open the door of the lift, and then you are at 3,800 meters.
真的，就是这么快。
Really, it takes you that fast.
忙的时候，二十分钟就到了。
Within twenty minutes on a busy day.
哇。
Wow.
从一千米直接到将近四千米。
You you you go from thousand meters to almost 4,000 meters.
而且特别神奇的是，你能看到登山者，那些年轻又爱运动的人，还有老年人。
And also, it was just amazing to see that you got alpinists, like people sporty, young, and then you are you have old people.
其实有时候，那些登山者反而会晕倒。
Well, actually, the the the alpinists, they fainted sometimes.
所以那其实让我意识到，身体素质当然有帮助，但并不是唯一的因素。
So that's actually where it's it it helped me realize that physical fitness definitely helps, but it's not the only thing.
你知道，身体里肯定有很多因素需要具备，这就是个体对海拔的反应，知道这一点很好。
You know, it's, it's it's there are there are definitely some many, probably, many factors in the body that need to be there, and that's where the individual response to altitude, is, and it's good to know.
意识到这一点是好的。
It's good to be aware of that.
现在我们听说低压舱有效，这太神奇了。
So now we've heard that hypobaric works, which is amazing.
那常压舱呢？
How about normobaric?
如果他们发现……因为那可能更多，那边怀疑的人更多，比……
What if what if they found because that's probably on the more there's more skeptics on that side than
低压舱。
hypobaric.
人们肯定一直怀疑，现在当然也怀疑，因为这有点奇怪。
People definitely were have been skeptic and still are, of course, because it's it's kind of strange.
对吧？
Right?
这，这怎么做到的？
You you are how does that work?
那台机器是怎么运作的？
How does that machine work?
而且用起来有时候也挺不舒服的。
It's sometimes very uncomfortable to use that also.
你知道，感觉不一样。
You you know, it's not the same.
当然，它跟真正的高海拔，也就是我们爬山时那种稀薄的空气，不完全一样。
Of course, it's not exact it's not the same as the real altitude as that thin air we call when we actually go to to the mountains.
不过最近有很多相关的研究，有些其实没发现什么明显效果。
But there have been many recent research studies on that, and some of them actually didn't really find much.
所以，大家可能对这方面还是有点怀疑。
So there maybe have been some skepticism about that.
但现在，我们确实可以确认它在很大程度上是有效的，你真的可以用它来提前适应高海拔。
But nowadays, I we can actually confirm that it works to to large extent, and you can actually really use it to to pre acclimatize.
我们在Athlete工作，与Adventures合作，这是一家探险公司，带领和指导人们去大型山脉。
We are in Athlete working with Adventures, which is expedition company leading leading and guiding people in the big ranges.
现在，他们正在做珠穆朗玛峰的项目。
And right now, it's Everest.
实际上，现在他们是我们的合作伙伴。
And, actually, now they are our collaborators.
我们一直在帮助他们为客户的体能做准备。
We have been helping them with physical preparation of their clients.
所以他们实际上在用低氧帐篷为客户准备所谓的快速探险。
And so they are actually using the hypoxic tents to prepare the clients for so called flash expeditions.
所以这实际上就是我之前谈到的情况。
So it's actually a situation that I talked about.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，去珠峰的话，你大概需要在山上待八周左右，也就是两个月，才能慢慢适应高海拔，从大本营开始逐步往上爬。
So, for example, Everest, you need to be there more or less eight weeks, two months to be on the mountain to acclimatize slowly with the with that graded ascent all the way to the base camp and then slowly going up the mountain.
当然，这样确实很耗时，对很多人来说，实际上根本做不到。
Of course, then it really takes a long time, And, and so for many people, it's actually not possible.
所以，利用那种帐篷在家里进行预先适应，你可以在家里搭起来。
And so, using actually that preacclamatization in an in the tent where you're actually in your home, you set it up.
当然，这也不是什么都不用做。
Of course, it's not nothing.
你还是得花心思去准备、去操作，并且知道怎么正确使用它。
It you have to still work around it, prepare it, and know how to use it.
不过，对Denbac Adventure来说，他们已经用这个方法很多年了。
But it's it's a day for Denbac Adventure specifically, they have been using it for many years now.
而且效果不错，他们能把客户带到山上，帮助他们直接上到5000米或者大本营的高度，然后开始往更高处攀登。
And with with success, they are able to bring their clients to the mountain and help them basically go straight to 5,000 meters or bay base camp level and basically start climbing to to the higher level.
所以，是的，这确实是个很复杂的事情。
So but, yes, of course, it's a very complex thing.
你真的需要知道怎么做。
You really need to know how to do that.
对吧？
Right?
就像我刚才说的，个体化的方法很重要。
It's it's again, the individual approach there is important as I just talked about.
所以你不能用一种方法套用到所有人身上。
And so you cannot have one, like, a one approach for any any for everybody.
对吧？
Right?
不然就简单了。
Otherwise, it would be simple.
只要按一个简单的方案发给每个人同样的内容，但事实并非如此。
You just follow a simple protocol and you just send it to everybody the same thing, and that's not
不是那么回事。
how It doesn't work like that.
不。
No.
其实不是这样，的确需要一些东西，可能有些怀疑就是从这儿来的。
It doesn't work like that and actually can really require, and that's where maybe some of the skepticism has been coming from.
但是，是的，这确实需要非常专业的知识。
But but, yes, there this is requires quite a specific knowledge.
但话说回来，这个办法是有效的，我觉得挺有意思的。
But, again, this this is working, and so I think it's pretty fascinating.
所以把它说成一种适应策略，或者更准确说是预适应策略，非常重要，我觉得对一些人来说可能会很感兴趣。
And So just saying this as an acclimatization strategy or more like a pre acclimatization strategy is is very important, and I think for some people might be very interested.
确实。
Definitely.
那你现在正在研究那个方案吧。
And within so you're you're working on the protocol.
你都在监测哪些变量，是人们应该留意的？
What are some of the variables that you are monitoring that people should be aware of?
我觉得大多数人已经在用了，通常你去尼泊尔的山里或者那些大山脉，当然不只是尼泊尔，最好的就是带一个脉搏血氧仪，就是夹在手指上的那个夹子，它能测你的心率和血氧饱和度。
So I think most people already are using usually, when you go to the mountains there in in Nepal or the the great ranges, not only Nepal, of course, the best is to have that pulse oximeter, which is the clip you put on your finger, and you it measures your heart rate and saturation.
对吧？
Right?
所以这基本上就是心血管方面的基本参数。
So that's pretty much the cardiovascular parameters, the basic ones.
你的身体是怎么应对和反应那个海拔的？
How is your body responding, reacting to to that altitude?
心率，我们现在知道这是身体对高海拔缺氧的第一个急性适应反应之一。
Heart rate, we know now that that's one of the first acute adaptations of the body to that the way it reacts to altitude to hypoxia.
所以它会升高，对吧，心率加快。
So it goes up, right, the increased heart rate.
所以你已经能看到，你的静息心率比在海平面或者在家的时候高很多。
So you can already see so that your resting heart rate is much higher than than it is at the sea level or back in back at home.
血氧饱和度就是有多少红细胞被氧气饱和了。
Saturation is really how much how many red blood cells are saturated with with oxygen.
通常来说，血氧饱和度在98%、99%左右，有时候能达到100%。
And so usually, it's around 98, 99%, sometimes 100.
但实际上，在海平面的时候，血氧饱和度通常并不是那么高的90多。
But it's actually usually actually not in that nine high nineties, the levels of saturation at sea level.
在医院里，如果病人情况不好，医生会持续监测这个指标。
And in the medicine, when you are in hospital and you're in some bad situation, they the doctors, they they measure this con continuously.
这非常重要。
It's very important.
如果血氧掉到85以下，我觉得就到了需要吸氧的程度，这算是身体状态好与不好的一个关键临界点。
And if it goes below 85, I think that's the level where they put you on oxygen or, you know, they it's really kind of important borderline between you being okay and then not so okay.
所以在高海拔地区，这种掉血氧的情况其实是自然发生的。
So in in that high altitude, this is actually happening naturally.
比如到了两三千米的高度，你的血氧可能就在95左右，甚至可能掉到92。
So already at two, three thousand meters, you're probably somewhere around 95, maybe 92.
再往高处走，你可以预料血氧会开始继续往下掉。
And, and then higher you go, you can expect that it will actually start dropping down.
但是通过逐步适应，你其实是想保持在某个健康范围内，同时也要知道，某种程度的缺氧，也就是血氧饱和度降低，其实是很重要的。
But with that graded acclimatization, you are actually trying to stay within some healthy range, but knowing also that some kind of hypoxia, so which is showing in that lower saturation is important.
身体其实在适应这个过程。
The body is actually adapting to it.
但这时候也最好知道，好吧。
But that's where also it's good to know, okay.
我的血氧饱和度是85。
My saturation is 85.
我觉得明天不应该继续往上走了。
I don't think I should go up tomorrow.
我应该在这个高度多待一段时间。
I should actually pay at this level.
或者有一个人真的很难受，血氧饱和度只有75，而且，嗯，很明显他们很痛苦，脸色苍白，甚至有点神志不清，所以你需要把他们带下去。
Or you have a person that is really struggling and their saturation is 75, and, well, logically, they are struggling even, like, being super pale and really kind of not out not not there completely, so you need to bring them down.
这真的是一个很好的指标，可以随时监测，我强烈建议所有去高海拔地区的人开始测试这个。
It's it's really good metric to to measure always, and I definitely encourage everybody going to high altitude to start testing this.
另外，这个也因人而异，但既然你已经适应了，真的去那些大山冲顶时，你睡在最高的营地，海拔6000米有时7000米，看是哪座山，血氧饱和度也不会太高。
Again, it will be slightly individual, but naturally then, even if you're acclimatized then and you are actually going for your summit push on these big mountains, so you're sleeping maybe at the highest camps at 6,000, sometimes 7,000 meters, depends which mountain, you know, your your saturation will not be very high.
但你已经适应了。
But you're you're already climatized.
你的身体其实已经能承受这种低血氧，所以你能应付得了。
You are your body is actually able to support that desaturation, and so you're able to handle it.
感觉不好，但不会生病。
You're not feeling great, but you're not getting sick.
这就是主要区别。
That's that's the main difference.
所以，是的，我觉得就是心率和血氧饱和度。
So, yeah, I think the heart rate saturation.
然后在适应过程中，不管是在山上还是用那种低氧帐篷，真正的关键其实就是待在缺氧环境中的时间。
And then in the process of the acclimatization, whether it's in the mountains or using that hypoxic tent, it's actually really the time the time spent in hypoxia.
对吧？
Right?
所以，在这些不同的策略之间，比如你准备好去那些山，然后你一直待在那里。
So between those different strategies, like going ready to you leave for you leave for those mountains, and you're up there all the time.
所以，你实际上不会离开那座山。
So you're actually not leaving that mountain.
所以，你真的是在训练，同时也住在高海拔。
So really are spending training and and also living high.
所以，这些不同的策略就是：在高处训练，在高处生活。
So those different strategies train high, live high.
所以，时间在累积。
So, the time is counting.
对吧？
Right?
但如果你只是周末去山里呢？
But then if you are in a situation when you are going to the mountains only for the weekend.
对吧？
Right?
所以正如我所说，实际上在低氧环境中的时间才是关键。
So that's actually as I told you, the time in hypoxia actually matters.
当你不在低氧环境中时，你的身体就不会真正适应太多，所以你真的需要注意这一点。
When you're not in hypoxia, well, your body will not will will not be really adapting so much, so you really want to be aware of that.
你需要真正了解，好吧，这够不够？
You want to really know, okay, is that enough or not?
所以这就是你应该联系我们的时候，因为我们可以帮你。
So that's where you should get in touch because we can help you out.
这不是唯一的方法。
It it's not one one way to say this.
是的。
So yeah.
但这是重要的指标。
But this is the important metric.
而且对于常压低氧来说，情况也是如此。
And that also actually is the case with the with the dense or with the normobaric hypoxia.
所以你实际上是在累积时间，而具体需要多少时间，这要看情况。
So you are actually trying to accumulate the time and that how much time is that depends.
关于这个话题有很多可以讨论的，当然也要注意安全。
There are many things to talk about that and kind of also keep it safe, of course.
所以请务必咨询专业人士，或者联系我们，或者去问问那些实际采用这些策略的公司，因为他们知道怎么做。
So please please, ask someone or get in touch, but, or talk to those companies that actually are using these these strategies because they know how to.
而且有很多细节非常具体。
And, there are many details that are really very specific.
不过，是的，这些确实是最重要的指标。
But, yeah, this is really those metrics that are more the most important.
那倒不是。
That's no.
那太棒了。
That's amazing.
而且我觉得这对人们来说真的很有帮助，让他们知道什么时候该寻求帮助，比如，嘿。
And I think it's really helpful for people just to know when to ask for help as well of, like, hey.
我们不要只是随便猜，或者在网上随便看看就决定怎么做。
Let's just not let's not just guess on or look at something briefly on the Internet and decide that that's gonna be how we're we'll go about this.
在结束之前，你还有什么想说的吗？
Any last things you want to touch on before we wrap this up?
我想也许值得一提的还有，在适应高海拔期间，营养也非常重要。
I guess maybe it's worth mentioning that also nutrition is very important during galimatization.
对吧？
Right?
所以，为了让我们适应环境，身体会发生一些变化，其中之一就是血液方面的适应。
So to in order to for us to acclimatize what is actually happening in the body, one of those adaptations is the hematological adaptations.
对吧？
Right?
就是增加红细胞压积、血红蛋白和红细胞数量，而这里重要的是铁水平和铁蛋白。
So increasing the hematocrit, the hemoglobin, red blood cells, and what is important there is is iron levels and ferritin.
所以最好去做个血液检查，或者咨询专家或教练，他们知道怎么做、为什么以及你需要的水平，因为这确实会影响你适应环境的能力。
So it's really good to do some blood work test blood work or testing, talk to specialists or or coaches that know how to and why and what are the levels that you want because it definitely, affects actually your capability your capacity to acclimatize.
因为如果你的铁水平低，这在长期耐力训练或女性中确实很常见。
Because if you are on low levels, and that can definitely happen already with extensive endurance training or with with women.
女性运动员，确实有很多铁水平低的案例。
Women athletes, definitely, there's so many cases where where the the iron levels are low.
所以如果你真的准备去登山，我强烈建议你去做血液检查。
And so if you are actually preparing for a mountain, I would definitely encourage you to do that.
此外，炎症在一定程度上可能来自不同来源，但也会对适应过程产生负面影响。
Also, to some extent, inflammation in general that can come from different sources, but also has has a negative impact on on acclimatization processes.
所以你看，这涉及很多方面，但最好在远征前很久就开始准备，和懂行的人聊聊，和我们团队聊聊，我们会帮你开始，然后告诉你最佳策略，并制定计划。
So, you know, you see that it's there's a lot going on, but it's just good to to start that work really way before the expedition to talk to people who now, talk to us, talk to our team, and we, you know, we get you started, then we can we can really tell you, okay, what is the best strategy already and, and, make the plan.
不。
No.
那太好了。
That's fantastic.
我们有一期节目，邀请了我们的营养师Alyssa Lieb，专门讨论高海拔问题，因为当你去比平时高很多的地方时，有很多需要考虑的因素。
And we do have an episode with Alyssa Lieb, who's our nutritionist on staff, talking specifically about altitude because there's a lot of considerations that come into play when you are going much higher higher than usual.
是的。
So yeah.
好的，马丁，谢谢你分享这些智慧。
Well, thank you, Martin, for all of this wisdom.
我想在这个系列中我们还会再请你来几次。
I think we'll have you on a couple more times without throughout this series.
所以今天感谢你分享你的智慧。
So thanks for sharing your wisdom today.
再次谈论山脉真是太好了。
It's been great to to talk about mountains again.
而且，是的，我很高兴分享这些，随时联系我们。
And, yeah, I'm happy happy to share all this and just free feel free to get in touch.
而且，是的，有很多可以聊的。
And, yeah, there's so much to talk about.
也许最后一点，对于那些可能想快速上山的运动员来说，确实有越来越多的人在挑战高海拔，甚至极端海拔，当我们谈论FKT，即最快已知时间，还有一些比赛时。
And maybe just the last point where for athletes that are maybe trying to actually go up fast, there are there are definitely more and more people who are trying to challenge themselves in the in altitude and actually extreme altitude when we talk about FKTs, fastest known time, but also some races.
现在这种越野赛、分段越野赛越来越多了。
There are more and more of these that are the trail races, stage trail races.
比如在尼泊尔，现在就有很多这样的比赛。
Like in Nepal, there there is many of them now.
所以你真的要在更高的水平上去表现自己。
So you really are actually trying to perform in a higher level.
所以这又是一个我们今天没时间讨论的话题。
And so that's another that's another topic we don't have time to discuss today.
但是，你知道，到时候该怎么做，怎么适应高海拔，以及如何让身体准备好去应对那种高强度的表现和水平。
But, you know, what what to do then, how to acclimatize, and actually prepare your body for for an excessive effort performance and then level.
对。
Yeah.
我们计划在未来的某一期节目里聊这个话题。
The plan is to touch on that in a future episode.
所以你这是在提前铺垫了。
So you're foreshadowing it well.
对。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Amazing.
那会很有趣。
That'll be fun.
是的。
Yeah.
真让人兴奋。
It's exciting.
我是说，我们不仅活下来了，还在努力追求卓越，这真的很了不起。
I mean, it's pretty incredible that not only are we surviving, but we're trying to excel.
所以我觉得这是一个非常棒的话题。
So I think that's a pretty amazing topic to cover.
不过也伴随着一些考验和磨难。
Comes with some trials and tribulations, though.
可以这么说。
We'll say.
但是
But
对。
Yeah.
自然。
Naturally.
我觉得，是的，我们是运动员，我们就是喜欢挑战。
I think, yeah, we that's we are we are athletes, and we we are looking for the challenges.
所以，没错。
And so yeah.
总之，我
Anyway, I
对。
Yeah.
去山上。
To go to the mountains.
对。
Yeah.
我也是。
Me too.
好的，谢谢你，马丁，也谢谢各位收听Uphill Athlete播客。
Well, thank you, Martin, and thank you for listening to the Uphill Athlete podcast.
如果大家能在常用的播客平台上评分、评论或订阅，就能帮助我们帮助更多运动员在山中安全。
If you could rate, review, or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform, that helps us help more athletes be safe in the mountains.
谢谢收听，我们不仅仅是一个人，而是一个社群。
Thank you for listening, and it's not just one, but a community.
我们就是Uphill Athlete。
We are Uphill Athlete.
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