群山之声：梅丽莎·阿诺特-里德重新定义勇气

所以，那种危险其实并不能真正帮你避开死亡，因为死亡终究会来找你。

So, like, you know, that danger doesn't quite work for the avoidance of death because it is coming for you.

这事儿真的特别复杂，你能看到我脑子里在这话题上绕出的那些弯弯绕绕。

And and so it's really complicated, you know, and it's like you can see the rabbit holes that exist within my brain in this topic.

对。

Yeah.

不只是你一个人这样。

And and not just yours.

我觉得所有在做高风险事情的人都这样，就像你说的，你根本不知道真正的风险是什么。

Like, I think everybody that is out there doing things that have a significant amount of risk because as you say, you don't actually know the risk.

你只知道结果。

You only know the outcome.

所以风险只有事后回头看才能看清楚。

So you only know the risk in in hindsight.

在登山、攀岩，还有白化病这些领域，我们常常把它简单化，就像你说的，非生即死。

And so when and in mountaineering and in climbing and in albinism, I think we often make it very binary, as you put it in the sense of, did I live or die?

这完全是过度简化，忽略了我们终有一死的事实。

And that is a a gross oversimplification and ignores the fact that we're one day going to die.

从某种角度说，这不过是一种虚假的胜利。

So in a way, it's a it's a false win, if you will.

你只是暂时没死在那天，或者今天。

You're just not gonna die that day or today.

我记得雷因霍尔德·梅斯纳在他的早期著作里提到过，要成为‘岩壁的生物’。

And I think that, you know, Reinhold Messner talks about in some of his early books about becoming what he called a creature of the wall.

我特别喜欢这句话，因为对我来说，这个词直击内心——我在自己的攀岩经历中真正体会过这种状态。

And I always love that phrase because for me, like, I viscerally understood that because I experienced that in my own climbing.

我曾达到过一种境界，不是只在某一天，而是在攀岩的许多时刻，甚至从很年轻的时候就开始，我完全接纳了周围的环境，内心异常平静。

And it was like, I got to a point where, you know, at various times, not just, like, one day, but, like, many times throughout my my climbing, including as a young young very young climber where I was just, like, completely comfortable with what was going on around me, and I was so sort of relaxed.

这正是他所说的那种状态。

And and that's that's what he was talking about.

对吧？

Right?

那时候石头往下掉，死亡好像就在身边飞来飞去。

I was I was you know, stones were falling and, you know, there was, like you know, death was flying.

周围到处都是可能丧命的危险，可我就只是说：嗯，知道了。

Potential death was flying all around me, and I was just like, yep.

真要命。

Shoot.

我一边吃着三明治，一边喝口热茶。

Eating my sandwich, having a sip drink of tea.

我觉得安全，因为头顶有块三十厘米厚的岩棚挡着，我就这么窝在里面，啥也不用担心。

Like, I'm safe because I've got this little 30 centimeter roof of rock over my head and, you know, I can just, like, tuck in here.

战区里的人，还有其他经历创伤的人，不也常常这样吗？

And same thing happens to people in war zones when they've you know?

在那些极端环境下，人们总会找到办法，让自己安身其中。

And in other traumatic situations, find these these ways to to sort of exist within that.

我想再回过头聊聊这些定义。

I wanna come back to the definitions.

我对勇气有一个特别具体的定义，那就是：即使有恐惧，也能行动起来，找到自己的主动性——其实，恐惧反而可能成为动力。

I have a very specific definition of of bravery, which and I would define it as, the ability to act or find agency in spite of or I mean, you can or because of or with fear.

我觉得我就是用这种方式跟我孩子讲的。

I think that this is how I talk about it with my kids.

比如，我带儿子们去攀岩，都是特别简单的路线。

Like, my you know, if I take my boys climbing, you know, we do very easy climbs.

他们根本不知道我以前是干什么的。

They don't know anything about my climbing.

对吧？

Right?

我还没跟他们提过任何事。

Like, I haven't told them anything yet.

总有一天他们会知道，但我根本不在乎。

They're gonna find out someday, and I don't care.

他们只知道我是登山向导，因为只有这么说，他们才会认真听我说话。

But the the only thing they know is I tell them that daddy is a mountain guide because that's the only way they frankly listen to me.

但当他们跟我说‘爸爸，我害怕’的时候

But, when I talk to them, when they say, daddy, I'm scared

是的

Yeah.

我以前的反应总是想立刻消除他们的恐惧，用各种安全措施把他们护起来

I my initial reaction, what I used to do is, like, try to remove the fear and, like, wrap them up in a blanket of safety of some kind.

但现在我明白了，这样做反而让他们觉得必须靠我来解决问题

And now I realize, like, oh, that's that's just creating this need on their part for me to come over and, like, solve the problem.

这种路子行不通，根本不是办法

That's like I I can't do like, that's that's a dead end.

对吧

Right?

我总不能每次都替他们解决难题

I can't always be there to solve their problem.

所以现在，他们再说‘爸爸，我害怕’的时候

So now, you know, they say, daddy, I'm scared.

我会说，你害怕其实挺好，因为这地方确实危险。

And I say, you know, that's that's good you're scared because this is dangerous.

对。

Mhmm.

那接下来你能做什么？

And what what action can you do next?

你能做点什么？

What can you do?

你能往那边挪一步吗？

Can can you step over to there?

你能够到那个洞吗？

Can you reach that hole?

你能挂上那个保护点吗？

Can you clip into that anchor?

就是这类事情。

Those kinds of things.

我现在特别喜欢和孩子们一起做这种讨论，比以前我直接从安全带上拿下滑降器、自己帮他们扣上锚点要好得多。

And I and I like this discussion that comes out of this with my kids much better than what I was doing previously where I would just grab the sling from the harness and clip them into the anchor myself

没错。

Right.

然后告诉他们很安全，再一一展示他们哪里安全。

And then tell them they were safe and show them all the ways they're safe.

以前我就是这么做的。

That was what I used to do.

但现在我开始提醒自己，等等。

And now I'm really trying to be like, oh, wait.

我得教他们如何掌握主动权，如何采取行动，如何拆解问题，并以积极、建设性的方式去解决。

I need to teach them how to have agency and how to take action and how to break down the problem and get through it in a in a positive constructive way.

其实你的勇气观念和最终的韧性发展是紧密相连的，这一点很有意思。

Well And I What's interesting is your concept of bravery is really intertwined with the end, the end evolution, which is resilience.

对吧？

Right?

所以你把勇气定义为韧性的一种形成，我觉得这个说法完全正确。

And so you see bravery in that really specific definition as the formation of resilience, and I think that that is totally correct.

我的意思是，这种想法非常具体、注重行动和结果，正好能抓住这个原本很模糊、难以界定的概念，毕竟它太依赖具体情境了。

I mean, that is the exact, you know, very action and and result oriented way to think about this really, like, loose concept that's hard to pin down because it is so subjective to the situation and and whatever.

它并不是固定不变的。

It's not so fixed and finite.

这真的很美好。

And that's really beautiful.

我很喜欢这一点，因为我自己就一直把韧性当作目标。

And I think that that I love because, you know, I've personally interacted with like resilience is my goal.

我也希望我的孩子能拥有韧性。

And resilience it's my goal for my children.

同样，这也是我对自己提出的要求。

And it's my goal for myself.

但在安逸的环境中很难培养韧性，因为人总是确信自己能挺过这一关。

And resilience is really difficult to create in comfort Because we have it's to the knowingness that you can get through this moment, you know.

而且，我们其实是在剥离那种非黑即白的观念——把死亡当作生命的终点。

And it's again, like we're taking out the, you know, binary fact of like death and life is the end result.

我不确定那是不是真正的终点，但至少是那个最终目标。

I don't know that that is the end result, but like that end goal.

没错。

Right.

但这个想法挺有意思，因为我女儿身上我也看到了类似的情况，她当时问我：‘我哪里勇敢了？’

But this idea of and it's funny because with my daughter, I I watched it happen too, where it was like, what is I'm so brave?

我到底希望她成为什么样的人？

And like, what is my goal for her?

我们以前经常聊这个，因为她是个特别擅长用比喻思考的孩子。

And and we used to talk about it because she's like a really metaphorically driven thinker.

她会举出各种例子，说明她是怎么理解我教她的那些东西的。

And she would come up with like different examples of how I she was thinking about something I was trying to teach her.

她小时候，大概四岁左右，刚开始骑车去更复杂的地形，风险也更大时，就经常提到这个概念。

And this idea, she would talk about when she was a little bit smaller, like around four, when she was really starting to ride her bike on a lot more varied terrain with more consequences.

我们一块儿下坡道的时候，她说：‘这些坑坑洼洼的，我根本躲不开。’

And she we would go down the driveway and she said like, it's so hard to miss all of these bumps.

我做不到。

I can't do it.

这空间太小了，根本没余地。

It's just too small of an area.

我就跟她说：丫头，你的目标不是躲开这些坑。

And I was like, girl, your goal is not to miss the bumps.

你的目标是学会怎么顺着坡道下去，撞上坑的时候别让它们把你撂倒。

Your goal is to figure out how to get down the driveway, hit the bumps, and not let it end your ride.

你可能会摔下来。

You know, you might fall off.

也可能会想办法冲过去，虽然那一瞬间会有点颠得难受。

You might figure out how to get over the bump and be like a little uncomfortable for a moment.

现在遇到棘手的事，她也总拿这个来跟我说。

And we she says it to me all the time of when we're having a tricky situation.

她总说，这些颠簸就是生活的一部分。

She's like, this is just this is just the bumps.

我们只需要跨过这些坎儿就行。

We just gotta get over the bumps.

你懂的。

You know?

我突然意识到，我可能在教女儿说一些陈词滥调，但作为一个登山者的孩子，这其实挺自然的。

And it's like, am I just I'm probably teaching my daughter how to, like, speak in cliche, which is a very correct thing of a mountaineer's child to do.

但真正重要的是，我们的目标从来不是赢。

But it is really beautiful to this idea of, like, our goal is not to win.

我们的目标也不是去追求那些虚无的东西。

Our goal is not to, you know, whatever that is.

我们的目标只是学会在遇到颠簸时，不急着去解决它。

It is just to build this ability to hit the bumps and not try to, yeah, fix it.

这是陈词滥调，还是只是一个实用的比喻？

Is it cliche or is it just a useful metaphor?

我的意思是，难道不是吗

I mean, doesn't

我觉得这个陈词滥调其实是个隐喻。

I think that that cliche is a metaphor.

我觉得这正是它的动人之处。

I think that's the beauty of it.

没错。

Yeah.

它之所以成为陈词滥调，正是因为有它的道理。

That's why it's a cliche for a reason.

你之前提到过恐惧，特别是写到那次事故——我先不剧透，免得影响你未来的读者——在那之后发生了冰裂缝事故，你谈了很多关于恐惧的事。我自己在登山经历中也遇到过类似情况，就像你说的，有些事是我根本没打算卷入的。

When you have talked about fear, and specifically, when you were writing about I don't wanna spoil anything for your future readers, but after your act there was an accident involving a crevasse, and you talked a lot about fear and how that and I and I've experienced this in my own at various times in my own mountaineering journey, like, been involved in some some situation that I didn't choose to be a part of, as you put it.

然后你就身在其中，情况糟透了。

And And and then you're there, and it's terrible.

简直糟糕到极点。

It's absolutely horrible.

这最糟糕了。

It's the worst.

那时候你会感到非常害怕。

And you have a lot of fear at the time.

而且，你知道，恐惧也有不同的类型。

And, you know, there's there's different types of fear.

就像我们刚才说的，我觉得那种是比较清晰明确的恐惧。

Like, what we've been talking about, I think, is kind of the nice clarifying fear.

比如，我害怕这个，所以我要躲开它。

Like, oh, I'm scared of that, so I'm gonna avoid it.

或者，我害怕这个，所以我要采取行动。

Or I'm scared of that, so I'm gonna take this action.

但还有一种，是会侵蚀人的恐惧。

But there's also a, like, a corrosive fear.

对。

Like Mhmm.

还有一种恐惧，里面带着怨气。

There's a a fear that has, like, resentment in it.

对。

Like Mhmm.

我没选过这个。

I didn't choose this.

我是被逼到这个境地的，不是自己选的。

Like, I didn't choose to be put in this situation.

你懂的。

You know?

接下来，很自然地就会进入责怪的阶段。

And then, of course, the logical next step is the blame step.

是你把我弄到这个地步的，或者你超出了自己的能力范围，搞出这摊事，现在让我来收拾烂摊子。

Like, you put me in this situation or you climbed outside of your experience level and ability and created this, and now I have to blah blah blah.

这种说法虽然特别容易理解，也特别常见，表面上看好像很有道理。

And and this framing, while super easy and super common and and it appears to have a very lot you know, base in logic.

对吧？

Right?

这种逻辑。

If then kind of logic.

我们作为一个群体，该怎么分辨哪些恐惧、经历和创伤是有建设性的，能促进成长的，哪些只会引发怨恨呢？

You know, how how can we how can we as a community start to distinguish between fear and and experience and trauma that is constructive, that is helpful, that is that is a a starting point for growth versus the kind that causes resentment.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

不只是怨恨，还有那种——我说不好，简直像恨意一样的情绪。

All the all the not just resentment, but, like, actually kind of I wanna say hatred.

就是那种特别深、特别强烈，恨不得跟人翻脸的强烈情绪。

Like, almost, like, really strong deep, like, f you kind of, know, strong feelings.

这挺有意思的，因为你刚说的这些，让我想到那些像水母一样模糊的恐惧，它们带来的不只是即时的后果，你得去反思，然后才能继续往前走。

It's interesting because just as you're describing this, and I can think about those, you know, very more amoebic types of fear that have, you know, not just instantaneous consequences and outcomes, and then you, you know, take it, reflect on it, and move on in your world.

但确实是这样，对。

But it is this idea of yeah.

我觉得你甚至都没意识到自己正在经历这些。

You I don't think you're even aware when that's happening.

比如那种指责、怨恨和仇恨的情绪。

Like the the blame and the resentment and the hatred.

当我在回顾并挑选要分享的人生故事，以及写进这本书里的内容时，我希望构建一条非常清晰的故事线。

And when I was reflecting and deciding what stories of my life to share and put into this book that I wanted to have a really specific narrative journey.

我试着用当时那个我的口吻来写，你知道的。

I tried to write in the voice of who I was at that time, you know.

整个过程真的既让我长了见识，又尴尬得想找个地缝钻进去，而且……

And it's it was really incredibly both informative and cringey and, you

你知道的，各种复杂的情绪都有。

know, all

重新找回当时内心那个声音，其实也是一种疗愈。当我经历那些恐惧时，我的反应就是去指责、去防御。因为我总觉得，所谓个人能动性这个概念，在宏观层面上可能有点理想化，甚至是个误区。虽然在某些瞬间，我们确实拥有选择的自由，但……我也说不太清楚。

of the things and also healing to go back to the voice that I carried inside of me at that moment when I was experiencing those types of fear and my reaction to it was, yes, to blame, to defend, to because I think that this idea of agency, which is potentially like on a very big level, somewhat of a fallacy, that there's, like there is individual agency in moments, but, you know, like, I don't know.

我们有很多事情是没得选的，但这些恰恰是特别关键的部分。

There's a lot of interaction with things we're not choosing, but it's just a very essential part.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得自由意志这个概念特别吸引人，那种掌控感和自主性真的很诱人。

I think that agency is a really, like, very sexy concept to be attracted to this idea that and autonomy.

就我个人来说，我能说的是——

And, like, I think it's what's I can speak for myself.

正是这种明确的掌控感，让我在山里不断前行。我能清楚地感受到，我的每一个选择、每一个行动，都会带来具体的后果。

It's what drove me in the mountains because I had this sense of very clear feeling in my of a feeling that I that I could point to and I could show it to you of my agency, my choosing, my, you know, actions result in this.

但与此同时，还有成千上万其他因素在起作用，包括大自然本身。

And also, at the same time, like, a bazillion other things are playing into this, including nature.

而大自然最让我着迷的一点，就是它这种矛盾：你确实能做选择，能掌控自己，可你面对的却是一个完全不可预测、从不提前通知你的世界。

And it's one of the things that's always felt so alluring to me about nature is this dichotomy of you get to have choice, agency, and autonomy, and you are interacting with a being that is completely dynamic and you get no notification of what's coming.

所以，正是在这里，那个错觉才真正开始显现。

And there's some so that's where the fallacy kind of starts.

我觉得这种现象其实体现在我们所有的人际关系里，无论你身处何地、和谁相处，都逃不开。

And I think of that in, you know, that replicates in all relationships that we have in all spaces that we exist in no matter who or where you are.

你一直在经历着这种状态。

You have that experience going on.

这大概就是自我与现实之间的冲突——我们以为自己能掌控的一切。

And it's probably like the ego versus, you know, actuality of like what we believe we are controlling.

尤其是当我们对恐惧产生抗拒时，这种反应其实完全是自我在作祟。

And I think that so that that relationship with fear specifically where you have this resentful reaction to fear occurring is very ego driven.

说白了，就是把恐惧当成失败。

You know, it's very it's it's fear as failure.

这种观念，我想我们社会早就潜移默化地接受了很久。

It's this concept that's societally, I think we've ingested for a really long time.

它最初并不是为了让人活下去，而是为了别的目的。

And I think it was a function of surviving not even surviving.

它是为了让人奔赴战场时，能觉得自己高尚伟大。

It was a function of sending people into war, and so that they would feel noble.

这种恐惧其实是关键所在，它被认为是必要的，好像战胜恐惧、甚至在真正危险面前甘愿赴死，才算是高尚。

And the that the fear, you know, is this essential component and, you know, necessary and that overcoming it or something is winning or or being willing to die in the face of, you know, real actual danger is somehow noble.

所以，失败就显得不够高尚，不敢面对、不敢前进，就更不值一提。

And so failing in some way is less noble and not going in, not facing it.

这种关于成就和高峰的观念，其实特别束缚人。我们总在歌颂那些登顶的人，可真正站在山上的那个人，他的体验却是极其私密、细微的。

And it is this idea of it's really entrapping idea, I think, around like achievement and the mountains that is how we celebrate people in the mountains and how deeply individual the experience is on a really like granular level for the person in the mountains.

你我两人在山上的经历，其实天差地别。

And you and I have widely varying experiences from one another in the mountains that are super different.

我们内心的感受，也各自有着完全不同的深层体验。

And our interior selves, we're having our own deeply personal experience there as well.

但外界却把我们硬塞进同一个标签里——成功或失败，好像我们没什么不同。

But the world puts us in a category that's very adjacent to one another, you know, of like achievement and failure.

于是，我们对恐惧和失败的态度，还有自我如何深深卷入其中，其实根本问题在于：要解开这一切，关键在于反思。

And and so and our relationship with then fear and failure and how the ego just really deeply plays into that and doesn't allow you to because the the the solving of that in so many ways is reflection.

对吧？

Right?

但这个问题在于，当你感到恐惧时，很难静下心来反思。

And there's a problem with that because in fear, it's very hard to reflect.

当事情让你觉得危险逼近，仿佛原始本能被触发时，根本没法保持冷静思考。

It's very hard to have a reflective stance when something feels, you know, it taps into the dinosaur brain of our we're being threatened.

这时候，你很难打开理性的一面，去问自己：这一切到底意味着什么？

It's really hard to, like, open the philosopher side of your brain and ask, like, what does it all mean?

我们这么做，究竟为了什么？

And what's it all for?

要分辨出那些真正保护我们、让我们活下来的恐惧成分，同时又不被它困住，这太难了。

And to take out the necessary elements of fear that keep us, you know, alive, hopefully, and also don't keep us alive.

说实话，我也说不清楚。

Like, I don't know.

我听到和参与的那些对话，尤其是关于攀岩的，我们干脆把这种高度危险的活动统称为登山。

Have all of the the conversations that I hear and I engage in in especially talking about climbing and, you know, this we've decided, I guess, like, societally a a categorically risky activity that we're just gonna call it mountain climbing.

于是你就成了一个主动追求恐惧的人，或者对肾上腺素有着完全不同感受的人——这一点，你也清楚。

And so you are a person who is now, you know, a fear seeking person or a person who has, like, a really different relationship with like adrenaline and, you know, you know this as well.

对。

Like Mhmm.

在山里，肾上腺素飙升往往是在情况糟糕透顶、彻底搞砸的时候。

The adrenaline side of the mountains is really when shit is terrible, when it's gone horribly wrong.

但这并不是你爬山的目的。

Like, it's not what you're there for.

我这么说，并不是想……但你确实

I and I don't say this to, like, activate But you're

是为了避开它。

there to avoid.

你就是为了避开它才去的。

You're there to avoid.

对。

Yeah.

我不是那种喜欢玩极限运动的人。

And I'm not a gravity sports person.

比如说，我不喜欢白水皮划艇或者那种高速下坡的运动，因为我真的不太喜欢那种高度应激的状态。

Like, I don't enjoy, like, whitewater kayaking and, like, fast downhill activities because of don't really like being in that that spiked state of reactivity.

我更喜欢那种缓慢、冥想的反应状态。也就是说，我想对过去和未来经历过的每一个选择、每一次体验，都进行全方位、360度的审视和分析。

I like being in a really slow meditative state of reactivity, which is like, I want to walk a 360 degree, you know, full dimensional view around every choice and experience that I've ever had and that I ever will and analyze it.

而速度根本不允许你这么做。

And, you know, speed doesn't allow for that.

而且这也跟恐惧有关。当你处于恐惧状态时，速度让你没法去分析恐惧到底是什么，你的动机是什么，以及你该如何与之相处。

And so and that's sort of like that fear relationship though too is that, you know, it doesn't allow for when you're in that state of fear, it doesn't allow for you to analyze what that actually is or what your motivations are and how you interact with it.

所以我觉得，从整体上来说，我也想承认一点，就是我们现在讨论的方式，其实也落入了某些陷阱，特别是像攀岩这项运动，所有攀岩分支的参与人数都大幅上升了。

So I think it's generally speaking like, also, I wanna acknowledge, you know, we are talking in a way that does fall into some of the traps of especially as climbing as a sport, all disciplines of climbing has risen in usership.

大多数人的体验，其实跟咱们当父母时的感受差不多。

Most people it it's not dissimilar to how we experience parenting.

对吧？

Right?

就像当我们的孩子感到害怕时，他们的恐惧是非常真实的，尽管我们知道后果可能也就是那样。

Like when our kids are experiencing fear, their fear is super real even though we know the consequences to be whatever the consequences may be.

总的来说，大多数攀岩者在攀登过程中并不会面临真正生死攸关的后果。

And by and large, most people who are climbing aren't dealing with, like, true life and death consequences to their individual actions throughout their climb.

这种情况会不会不一样呢？

You know, can that be different?

当然有可能。

It can, obviously.

但我们总是特别关注那些出事的案例，反复琢磨细节。

But, you know, we really we extrapolate these stories of, like, things going wrong, and we look at that really closely.

我觉得这其实是在安慰我们自己。

And I think it's a again, it's soothing to ourselves.

你作为亲身经历过山里意外、面对过事与愿违的后果、并直面过那些复杂情绪的人，肯定懂这个。

And you know this as a person who's experienced, you know, the consequences of being in the mountains and things going differently than you thought they would and really having to confront all of the complex feelings that go into that.

然后外界会把你的故事当成一种解药，用来指导他们未来的决定，试图避免自己遭遇类似的恐惧、痛苦和风险——但谁又知道，我们真能避开这些吗？

And then how the world engages with your story as like a salve to their own decision making in the future to to prevent themselves from experiencing that fear, pain, risk, you know, which who knows if we can.

我想回过头再说说你之前提到的一点，正是它让我们聊开了。我本来想打断你，你刚说到‘我们是有主动权的’，但接着又停住了，所以我一直在想，这个主动权，还有其他那些东西。

I wanna go back to something you said and started us down this rabbit hole a little bit because I I stopped you when you started to say, well, you know, we have agency, but then there's a so I think of this agency and then the other stuff.

我觉得这可以分成确定性和概率性两种。

I think of it as deterministic and probabilistic.

确定性指的是你能做出选择的部分。

Like, the deterministic is what you can make choices around.

对。

Yeah.

在山里，这种确定性的东西很多。

And there's a lot of that in the mountains.

而概率性就像你刚才说的，直面大自然最原始的力量，根本没得选，只能接受会发生的一切。

And the probabilistic is what you were talking about, interacting with the force of nature in its rawest form and having to you know, no choice but to accept what what happens in in that way.

在大多数情况下，尤其是在大山上，概率性因素对结果的影响远大于那些确定性的选择。

And in most cases, that actually determines far in the mountains, especially the big mountains, that determines far more of the outcome than the deterministic choices.

等你做到不靠氧气瓶挑战珠峰的时候，所有能掌控的因素都已经安排好了。

By the time you get to the level which you're trying to climb Everest without supplemental oxygen, the deterministic pieces have all been put in place.

再往上，几乎就全看运气了。

Almost purely probabilistic beyond that.

对。

And Mhmm.

我记得在我们攀登南迦帕尔巴特峰之前，和文斯·安德森有过一次谈话，那时他很紧张，因为我们的适应期快到头了。

I remember having this discussion with Vince Anderson right before we climbed Nangaparbat because he was getting nervous because our acclimatization and everything, were at the end of our time.

他担心我们的适应状态在下滑，窗口期就要错过了。

And he was getting nervous that our acclimatization was kind of waning, and we were losing our window.

我们聊了之后，才真正平静下来——只要机会来了，一切条件都配合，我们百分百有信心能完成。

And we had this conversation, and there was it really calmed us both when we realized, yes, if we get the opportunity and everything lines up, we are a 100% sure we can do this.

也可能我们最终会离开大本营，连这条路线都没踏上过，世界根本不会在意，也不会知道。

And it could be that, like, we will walk away from this base camp never having stepped foot on this route, and the world won't care, won't know.

我们自己心里大概有数，但终究没有那份确凿的证明。

We won't we'll we will sort of be pretty sure, but we wouldn't have had that, like, proof.

结果呢，我们确实抓住了机会，不仅向自己证明了，也向世界证明了。

And as it turned out, of course, we had the opportunity to sort of prove that to ourselves and beyond that to the world.

所以当你真正和这个世界互动时，我想，你的体验会完全不同。

And so when you interact with the world, I mean, I think you have a different experience.

我的意思是，你显然比我年轻，而且性别也不一样。

I mean, obviously, you're you're younger, and you're also a different gender than I am.

所以当你跟这个世界互动时，别人看你登山的成就，他们怎么看待你的价值？而你自己又是怎么看待这些成就和你自身的价值的？

And so when you interact with the world and the world looks at your achievements in the mountains, how do you what's that relationship between what I'll just say they see as your achievements and your value and what you see as your achievements and your value?

你是怎么平衡这两者的？

And how do you balance that?

当外界的叙事跟你内心真实的自我不一致时，你怎么保持对自己身份的真诚认知？

How do you how do you maintain your own true what you feel truth of your identity when the narrative from them, I'll just say Yeah.

这种差异是存在的。

May be different?

这个内在的过程对你来说是什么样的？它是怎么随着时间慢慢演变的？

How does that what is that internal process like for you, and how has that unfolded over time?

说到底，这正是我整本书想讲的核心。

Essentially, that is the whole journey of my book.

对吧？

Right?

我曾经以为，只要我能控制别人怎么看我。

Is this idea of thinking that I could control what they saw.

只要他们认可我展现的东西，我就有了自我价值。

And if they approved of what they saw, then I could have self worth.

是的。

Yeah.

这种想法其实太简单化了，当时我根本没意识到自己正在这样想。

And like that's like oversimplifying and I didn't know that that's what was happening during that time.

但我的整个经历，其实就是从一开始觉得——我感到格格不入，而这种感觉源于我内心深处的伤痛，和别人完全无关。

But that's essentially what my journey was of going through this experience of first thinking, you know, I don't feel belonging for some foundational wounds that have nothing to do with anything, anyone else outside of me.

那我该怎么做才能找到归属感呢？

And so what do I choose to do to find belonging?

我选择把自己放进一个和周围几乎所有人都截然不同的环境里。

I choose to put myself into an environment where I am categorically different from nearly everybody around.

这其实一点都不理性。

So that's not rational.

这事儿其实挺傻的。

Like, that's a silly thing to do.

但它却把‘与众不同’的效果放大了。

But it has this really magnifying effect of exceptionality.

如果我觉得自己融不进去，我就拼命想变得特别。

So if I don't think I can belong, then I'm going to strive to be exceptional.

因为既然注定融不进去，那至少我要以一种我能掌控的方式融不进去。

Because if I'm going to be not belonging, I'm going be not belonging in a way that that I feel I can control.

对吧？

Right?

既然没法自然地融入这个群体，那我就让自己成为房间里唯一的女孩。

So if I'm not going to naturally fit into this peer group, I'm going to make myself the only girl in the room.

这样我融不进去就有了理由，也就没那么难受了。

So that it's okay that I don't fit into this peer group because I have a reason for that.

或者我让自己变成最年轻的、最瘦小的，随便什么。

Or I'm going to be the youngest one or the smallest one or whatever.

然后我就需要他们给我一些外部的认可。

And then I'm going to need some validators from them, external validators.

我经历的就是，作为一个爬山的女孩，那种特别感本来就存在，但我一直没得到任何认可。

And so what I experienced is like being a girl who was climbing mountains, I was, you know, already kind of that exceptionality was existing, but I didn't have any validators.

所以我特别需要别人来肯定我。

So I needed the validator.

于是我开始去争取领导职位。

So then I pursued, you know, leadership roles.

我想当一名向导。

So I wanna be a guide.

现在我有了一个自动获得认可的身份。

So now I have this automatic validator.

但这又让我进入了一个完全不属于我的新环境，现在我又需要在另一个地方找到新的认可。

But then it just created a whole new environment that I don't belong in, and now I need more of a validator in another one.

于是我23岁那年，不仅登顶了珠峰，还成了当时为数不多、以向导身份登顶珠峰的女性之一。

So then I'm going go and I'm going to be 23 years old, and I'm going to go and not just summit Everest, but I'm going to guide Everest as like one of very few women who had ever guided Everest at that point in time.

我会从他们的认可中获得回报，但我也慢慢意识到，这根本改变不了我内心对自己的看法。

And I'm gonna reap the rewards of the validation of them, and I'm gonna also slowly determine that it doesn't change at all what the interior way I see me is.

对吧？

Right?

我依然渴望归属感，所以还是在追求卓越和外界的认可。

Like, I still am in need of I want belonging, and so I'm pursuing exceptionality and validation instead.

我把成就当成获得接纳的方式。

So I'm using achievement as a form of acceptance.

在我的人生中，我渐渐明白，这条路行不通。

And, you know, I have come to learn in my life that that does not work.

对谁都不管用。

It does not work for anybody.

根本就无效。

It doesn't work at all.

内在动力和外在动机之间，存在着巨大的差别。

It's a it is a extreme difference in intrinsic and exterior motivations.

对吧？

Right?

追求成就、享受那种成就感，我觉得没什么问题。

I think it's okay to pursue achievement and to bask in the glow of that.

这完全没问题，但它根本改变不了你内心对自己的认知。

I think that's totally fine, but it doesn't fundamentally change who you are internally.

要真正改变你内心对自己的看法，真的很难。

And it is really hard for it to change your view of yourself internally.

所以我走上了这条路——比如我登上了珠峰，可还没等我回到大本营，我就觉得这还不够。

So that is why I ended up on this journey where, you know, I summited Everest and immediately I mean, before I even was like back at Base Camp, I had this idea of that's not enough.

我得回去，因为之前只有一个女人曾经多次担任珠峰的向导。

Like, I need to go I need to come back because there's not been there's one other woman who's ever guided multiple seasons on Everest.

我得成为那个女人。

Like, I need to be that woman.

我必须把自己和这种非凡联系在一起，来证明我值得被接纳。

I need to meld myself with this exceptionality to prove my belonging.

等我回来后，发现那还是不够。

And then when I came back, know, that still wasn't enough.

现在我要以一种没人像我这样做过的方式去完成它。

Now I need to do this in a way that no one else is doing it who's like me.

因为只有这样，才能证明我的与众不同。

Because that will prove my exceptionality.

然后我就听到有人说：‘你根本算不上真正的登山者’，或者‘她只是因为年轻漂亮才得到机会，毕竟她属于那种罕见的例外’。

And then I would hear the things of like, you know, you are not a real climber or she's just getting work because she's cute young girl because she is exceptional in the outlier space.

但那又怎样？她根本不是真正的登山者。

But that's but she's not a real climber.

于是这又添了一层负担。

And so then it's just adding.

这就像一座自己堆起来的山，当我等着别人告诉我‘够了’的时候，它却在外部不断长高。

It's this like, you know, it it's it's mountain of its own that it creates outside when I'm waiting for them to tell me that it's enough.

直到今天，我依然能遇到不少人，他们总会告诉我：这还不够。

I will always be able to find, including to this day, people who will tell me that it's not enough.

如果我选择听信那些话，我就永远会试图通过成就来证明自己值得被接纳，但这根本行不通。

And if I choose to listen to that, I will forever be in pursuit of belonging through achievement, and it can't work.

所以我的成长历程就是，我真的想过，只要我能不靠氧气瓶登顶珠峰，就没人能再说我不是真正的登山者，不是真正的山中人。

And so my journey and my evolution was that I really did think, like, if I can summit Everest without oxygen, without supplemental oxygen, nobody will be able to say that I am not a climber and that I'm not a mountain

再也无法质疑你了。

from me anymore.

是的。

Yeah.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

就在完成这件事后的几天内，一个朋友、同行就对我说：我相信你确实做到了，但你有没有想过，没人会相信你真做到了，因为你只和一个搭档——还是你男朋友——一起完成的。

Like, within days of doing it, friend of ours, a peer of ours, said to me, like, I, you know, I believe that you did this, but you realize no one's gonna believe that you did this because you did this alone with a single climbing partner who is your boyfriend.

你这些年一直想做这件事，听起来就是有点可疑。

And like it's just it seems sketchy that you've tried to do this all these years.

我听出了这话背后的潜台词。

And I've read between the lines of that.

我觉得，你根本不信我做到了。

I'm like, you don't believe that I did this.

你根本不信这事真的发生了，但这其实无所谓。

Like, you don't believe that this happened and it doesn't matter.

我真的做不到。

Like, I can't.

幸运的是，我那时已经开始了。

And fortunately for me, I had already begun.

虽然那时候我还很稚嫩，但我已经开始明白：除非我先疗愈内心那个认为自己的价值完全取决于成就的部分，否则我永远无法真正完成这样非凡的事。

I was an infant in that, but I'd begun this journey of understanding that I couldn't achieve this really big exceptional thing until I started to heal that interior side of myself that understood that my worth innately is not attached to my achievement.

成就确实能带来满足感，别人的认可也让人开心，但那终究只是一种感觉。

And achievement can feel good and validation can feel really good, but it's just a feeling.

它并不能定义我本质上是谁。

It's not who I fundamentally am.

所以，这一直是我内在的旅程——如何面对别人对我的看法，和真实的自己之间的关系。

And so that has been my journey with, you know, quite on the interior side of how I relate to what they think of me versus who I am.

最近我经历了一件特别疯狂的事，因为我决定做最让我害怕的事——向他们坦白，这些年我用了多少手段，假装自己是另一个人。

And I've just recently gone through the craziest experience with that because I decided to do the thing that scared me the most, which was tell them all of the ways that I had tried to trick them into thinking I was something I wasn't over the years.

我不只是想跟你讲我内心经历了什么，更想告诉你，我曾经做了哪些事，只为让你对我改观。

And I decided to not just tell you the story of, you know, what was going on for me in my space, but to tell you what I did to try to make you see me differently.

我要诚实地讲出来，那些年让我害怕到不敢展露真实自我的一切，那些让我不敢让你看见真正的我的东西。

And be really honest and be, you know, all the things that made me afraid in those years that I couldn't show I couldn't show you who I really was.

因为我怕，一旦你发现真实的我，你就会觉得我不配，觉得我不是真正的佼佼者，不配站在这里。

Because if you found out who I really was, you would then know that I wasn't deserving and that I wasn't a real climber and that I wasn't deserving of being here.

那些深藏的不安，那些我一直以来压抑的自我怀疑，终于全都被掀开了。

I hadn't, you know, all of my insecurities, I sort of had to like unveil.

这恰恰是我从前怎么也想不到的悖论。

And it's the actual paradox of what I would have thought.

以前你就算跟我这么说，我也听不懂，更不会相信。

You couldn't have explained this to me previous to me previously in my life because I wouldn't have understood and I wouldn't have believed you.

但现在我才明白，我之所以那么在意别人怎么看我，是因为我一直拼命在控制他们眼中的我。

But it's like, oh, I only cared so deeply about what you that were that they thought of me when I was trying to manage what they saw.

现在，我在某种程度上真的不再刻意控制别人怎么看我了。

And now I've like really stopped managing what they see on some level.

当然，我依然是个普通人，还是会希望在某些场合被以特定的方式看待，但我已经放下了那个一直紧握的巨大屏障，那个我曾经拼命维持的假象。

Of course, I'm always gonna just be a human who's like wants to be perceived in certain ways and spaces, but I've like disarmed the big barrier that I was holding or the big, you know, facade that I was upholding.

我把它放下了，奇怪的是，我现在根本没那么在意别人怎么想我了。

I let that down And weirdly, I care far less, like, what you, you know, what people, what do they think.

比如，当我听说一位我非常敬重的人，对我的登山成就和价值说了很刻薄的话时。

Like, when I just heard that somebody that I deeply respect had said something really unkind about my place in mountaineering history and and the worth of it or the worthiness of it.

那确实让我难过，但我也换了一种方式去理解它。

And it hurt, but it also I understood it differently.

它没有让我想，哦，我得再去登一次没有氧气的珠峰，证明我是唯一一个两次做到这一点的女性。

Like, it didn't cause me to think, like, well, I need to now go, you know, back and climb Everest again without oxygen to prove that, like, I'm the only female ever to do it twice.

谁在乎呢？

Like, who cares?

这根本改变不了我眼中的世界，反而更容易让我滋养自我憎恨和无法原谅自己的念头，而不是培养自我接纳。

It's not gonna change anything from my little view in the world, and it has far a far greater propensity to make me feed the seed of self hatred and lack of self forgiveness than it does self love.

当你一味在意别人怎么看时，这其实恰恰会浇灌你内心不安的种子。

And there's that weird, again, that like paradox of when you're trying to live for what they see, like, it's it really will be the water on the seeds of insecurity in your own self.

你也就失去了停下来，真正去欣赏那个真实、复杂又满是缺点的自己的机会。

And you won't get the chance to, like, take a pause and actually appreciate the who you really are in all of its complex and deeply flawed ways.

这里面有太多我想深入探讨的地方。

There's there's so much I want to want to go into there.

不。

No.

这太棒了。

It's it's wonderful.

你对这些想法的表达真是格外深刻。

And you speak you speak so eloquently about these these ideas.

我想好好想想你刚才说的那些内容。

And I want to think about, you know, a lot of what you were talking about.

你能给我们讲个例子吗？就是那种微妙的平衡——我们刚才说的，和同龄人之间，那种可以称为微侵犯的时刻。

You're can you you tell us maybe a story where something like that shows an example where there there's a there's a sort of subtle balance, right, that you're talking about between we're talking about our peers or them, they, them, between, like, a microaggression, let's call it.

我只是觉得，现在的说法跟那种能培养韧性、让你变得更坚强的挑战不一样，那种时候你就会想，哦，对啊。

I just think that's the the the current phrase versus something that, you know, can be something a microaggression, a challenge, can be something that builds, like, resilience and kinda hardens you and you're like so, like, oh, yeah.

你等着瞧吧。

You wait.

看看这种事和你所说的那种情况之间的区别，我觉得这其实是一种无声的自我背叛，因为你心里明明知道，这些事往往是紧密相连的。

Watch this kind of a thing versus it be and that becoming what you're talking about is sort of, I would characterize as a quiet self betrayal because you you you're like and how those things go hand in hand sometimes.

人总要经历一个阶段，不再那么在意别人的看法，同时，你的自我价值感也真正从内心建立起来。

And one of the things that there's this balance between you getting to a point as a human where, you know, they they, their opinions don't matter so much to you anymore, and b, where you your self worth is is internal.

这就回到了我们一开始说的：我们不需要去争取爱，也不需要配得上爱，无论是对自己的爱、对家人的爱，还是对社群的爱，它本来就存在，是恒常的，是理所当然的。

And then it goes back to what we started with, which is this idea that we don't have to earn love or that we don't have to qualify for it, that it's that you're whether your self love or your love love of your family or your love in the community is a is a given, is a constant, is is something something that's just there.

我觉得，很多时候——我想到的不只是自己，也包括很多听众——我们其实都曾无意中做出过这种微小的伤害。

And I think that so many times, I'm thinking about myself, but also many of our listeners, have perpetrated microaggression, I would call it.

是的。

Mhmm.

而且根本没怎么认真想过这些问题。

And and not really really given it any thought.

对吧？

Right?

就像我，我老是会掉进这个陷阱，因为这更像是一种本能反应。

Like, and and I I fall victim to this all the time because it's it's like a a reaction.

我有了某种感受，就会立刻告诉对方，而没怎么考虑过这会带来什么影响，或者对方听了会有什么感受。其实我也能做到共情，只是我往往是在事后才反应过来。

Like, I have a feeling, and I'm gonna let this person know what my feeling is without really thinking about, like, the impact and how that lands and what that, you know I I can have that too, and I can be empathetic, but I'm more of an empathetic person in hindsight.

对吧？

Right?

对，是的。

Like, oh, yeah.

我想，你知道的，我很难在当下就做到这一点。

I guess, you know, I have a hard time, like, doing it in the moment.

这种情况真的太多了。

And there's so much of that.

而且，这不仅仅发生在登山这项运动里。

And I and it's not just in mountaineering.

对吧？

Right?

这在世界上普遍存在。

It's in it's in the world.

我们生活的这个世界里，到处都是这样。

It's throughout the world we live in.

这几乎是人性的一部分。

It's in human condition almost.

那这种现象到底在哪呢？

So where is that?

你能给我们讲个例子吗？就是这种或大或小的攻击，当时是怎么发生的？

Where can you tell us, like, a story, I think, of one of these aggressions, micro or macro, that how that unfolded?

我先说说我的看法吧。

Well, and I'll tell you, you know, first, like, to zoom out for me.

我后来才意识到，最让我反感、也最伤害我内心的声音和自我认知的，就是别人怀疑我。

I became aware of this idea that the thing that I really disliked that could be really harmful for my interior voice and my interior sense of self was, you know, them doubting me.

后来我意识到，其实我也希望他们对我产生怀疑。

And I became aware at some point that I also wanted them to doubt me.

你知道吗？

You know?

于是我开始深入拥抱那些与登山文化完全相反的自己。

So, like, I leaned deeply in to the parts of me that are really counterculture to mountaineering.

我喜欢特别女性化的东西。

So, like, I love really girly things.

比如，我超爱穿漂亮的高跟鞋。

Like, I love, like, really nice heels.

我喜欢打扮得精致一点。

I love dressing up.

这本来就是我性格的一部分，是我真心喜欢的事，我也愿意去拥抱它，看看别人惊讶的样子——‘你居然是个登山者？’

I, you know, I that is just part of my personality and things I do love and I would enjoy leaning into it and causing people this reaction of like, woah, you know, you're a mountaineer.

但同时，这种反应也会慢慢侵蚀我的自我认同。

And I also would allow that to corrode my sense of self.

后来我意识到，关键其实不在于那句话本身，而在于谁说的。有一次我和我丈夫聊到这个，我说：‘你跟我说的那句话——你看起来一点都不像登山者’，我一听就忍不住笑。

And I realized at some point that it had something to do more with like who was saying it because and I had this conversation with my husband at one point where I said like the very sentence, the very sentence you can say to me, which is you don't look like a mountaineer.

我一听就忍不住笑。

I I like giggle at.

我知道啊。

I'm like, I know.

这事儿特别有意思。

It's so fun.

你懂的吧？

You know?

我们俩就笑着调侃几句，然后该干嘛干嘛。

And we like laugh about it and like go about our lives.

然后呢，你猜怎么着？我坐在飞机上，旁边是个中年男的，他问我：‘你平时是做什么工作的？’

And then, you know, this per this most likely, you know, middle aged male that I'm sitting next to on an airplane, and it's like, oh, where what do you do for work?

我就说：‘我是搞登山的。’

And I'm like, I'm a mountain guy.

他以为我是开大巴载游客观光的。

And he's like, oh, like, you drive the bus around and take people on tours.

我说：不是。

And I'm like, no.

我是搞冰川登山的，比如攀登珠穆朗玛峰那种。

I do glacier mountaineering, like climbing peaks such as Everest.

那你去过珠峰吗？

Oh, have you ever gone to Everest?

去过。

Oh, yes.

登到顶了吗？

Ever gone to the top?

登上了。

Yes.

整整六次。

All the way six times.

哦，你知道吗，他居然说，你看起来一点都不像登山者。

Oh, well, you know, and he's like, you don't look like a mountaineer.

这让我特别生气。

And I I it fills me with anger.

这背后其实有很多含义，但我自己在解读他的意图。

And it's all this context of, like, the intention behind it, but I'm interpreting the intention behind it.

以前我对别人意图的解读可敏感多了。

And I used to be far more sensitive to my interpretation of the intention behind it.

对吧？

Right?

你这话听起来像是想贬低我，想把我排除在外，而不是像我之前说的那样，认可我的特别之处。

Of like, you're trying to cut me down by saying, you're trying to exclude me in a negative way rather than uphold my exceptionality as I was saying before.

这就又回到韧性这个话题了。

And so that is back to this idea of resilience.

这些就是我一路上遇到的磕绊。

And so those are bumps that I'm hitting.

过去差不多十年里，我学会了一种新的应对方式——用更坚韧的内心去面对这些。在那一刻，我可以选择笑一笑，或者允许自己感受，毕竟我本身也是一个情感非常细腻的人。

And the new way that I have, you know, over the last really almost ten years, like, practiced interacting with that is with a far more resilient interior being, which is that I can like, in that moment, laugh or feel because I'm not I'm a human who's like deeply sensitive as well.

别人对我的看法有时确实让人难受，但我提醒自己，这正是练习韧性的机会。

And people's opinions of me can feel crushing, but I remember that it's an opportunity to practice my resilience.

我可以允许自己被击垮，感受那种沉重，但同时也要记住，那并不代表我本人。

And it's an opportunity to let it crush me and feel that crushingness and also remember that it is not who I am.

那只是别人对我一个人的看法而已。

It is just another person's opinion out there about me.

我能理解，因为我自己也常常对别人有各种看法。

And I understand it because I am an opinionated person about others.

你知道的。

You know?

我活着的时候总带着评判的眼光，这一直是我想更警觉、更努力去调整的地方，尽量用善意去对待自己内心的那份评判。

Like, I live my life with an eye of judgment, and it's something I'm always sort of like trying to be more aware of and try to, you know, make sure that I'm engaging with that judgmental eye with kindness.

对。

Mhmm.

或者说，以一种健康的方式，这正是我内心复杂性的体现。

And or and or, you know, in a healthy way that is the range of complexity that I have.

但这是从宏观层面来看，我如何理解他们对我的态度。

But, you know, so that's like the very macro side of, you know, how I've experienced the that the them.

我有太多这样的例子，关于那些细微的歧视经历——不是无意的，我清楚这不是无意的。

And I I just have so many endless examples of the microaggression experience of being on think unintentional I'm not it's not unintentional.

它更像是介于有意识和无意识之间的一种特定对待方式。

It's it's like almost it's whatever's just right between conscious and subconsciously treated in a really specific way.

在我早期带团的时候，随着我登上的高峰越来越多，履历也越来越厚，根本不用我主动提，我的经历已经摆在那儿了。

And so what that would look like in my earlier days of guiding is as I started to climb more peaks and have more of a resume that was sort of like, I didn't have to tell you my resume because now my resume was leading in front of me.

我开始在同行、还有那些我非常敬重的潜在导师身上，感受到更多这样的对待。

And I I started to experience even more with my peers or people who were potential mentors of mine that I deeply respected.

比如有个人，长期在喜马拉雅地区工作，积累了极其丰富的经验。

I started to interact in a way with them where it was like, oh, you guys I mean, a good example is, like, a person who had a long history of working in the Himalayas and had, you know, tremendous level of different experiences there.

在我第二次登顶珠峰后，正计划去攀登我梦寐以求的马卡鲁峰时，他们对我说：‘你登珠峰真是运气好，又一直待在向导体系里，什么都有人帮你安排。’

And after my second summit on Everest and as I was planning this upcoming trip that I wanted to go to Makalu, which had always been, like, my dream mountain, they said to me, like, you know, Makalu, you've gotten really lucky on Everest, and you've been inside of the structure of, like, working as a guide and basically everything being done for you.

而马卡鲁峰根本不是那么回事。

And and Makalu is nothing like that.

所以你要想登马卡鲁，得有更多经验。

And so I you need a you need more experience to do that.

我就想，这不正是我正在做的吗？

And I was like, well, that's what I'm doing.

我就在这儿呢。

Like, I'm here.

我正在积累更多的经验。

I'm getting more experience.

我想，这又回到了那个潜意识和意识之间的微妙地带——他们未必是故意要贬低我、把我排除在外，但潜意识里确实如此。因为我们每个人都活在一种对自我独特性的敏感平衡里，如果有人和你做同样的事，而你却不觉得他配得上，那就会动摇你觉得自己特别的底气。

And it was I think like that, again, that space between conscious and subconscious, like, don't think they were consciously trying to like cut me down and exclude me from this environment, but I think subconsciously they were because we all live in such a delicate dance with our own exceptionality that if somebody else is doing what we do and we don't view them as worthy of it, then it crushes, you know, our deservingness of being special.

因为如果别人也能做你做的事，我觉得这正是我们这个时代的问题。

Because if someone else can just do what you do and I think that's the current era.

这么说可能有点转折，但问题就在于，如今我们看登山运动，就像在看一个评论员席上的竞技场，我们随意评判谁配得上登顶，谁不配。

Mean, it's like a hard right turn with this thought, but, like, it's the problem with the sort of, like, armchair spectator coliseum aspect of how we watch mountaineering in current day, and we decide who is deserving and undeserving of going to the summit.

在那些被认为不配的人里，声音最大的往往是Instagram上的人，你知道的，把那里当旅游景点，拍拍照就完事。

And some of the loudest voices in the undeserving category of, like, Instagram, you know, it's a tourist destination and people taking pictures.

这说法挺微妙、挺复杂，某种程度上也确实有道理。

That's very nuanced, complicated, and somewhat true.

但你核心的意思是，他们这么做，是在削弱你所做之事的价值。

But it also the fundamental thing you're saying is like, it's taking value away from this thing you did.

因为这个人，做事情的方式跟你不一样，长得跟你不一样，或者你觉得他能力不够、不配做这事，可他偏偏做了。

And because this person who's doing it differently or looks differently than you or you decided is less capable or less deserving of doing this thing is doing it.

这就让你自己做的事，显得没那么特别了。

And that takes some specialness away from you doing it.

我对此特别好奇，因为我觉得这其实回到了一个更大的问题：内在动机和外在动机的区别。

And, you know, I'm very curious about that because I think it goes back to this bigger question of, like, internal versus external motivators.

如果你登峰的唯一目的就是登顶，那抵达山顶就是你全部的追求。

And if you're going to the mountain to go to the summit, you know, then getting to the summit is all you're there for.

但也有人上山，是为了别的原因。

And then there's other people that are going to the mountain for a different reason.

就我现在的生活而言，我不觉得这其中有什么高低贵贱之分。

And I don't, right now, in my current life, think one of those is I don't think that's a hierarchical, like, way of being.

我个人对登山、对山的态度确实有偏好，但我并不认为自己就比那些只想登顶的人更高明。

I think, you know, I have a personal preference for what the mountains are and how to interact with them, but I don't think that I'm, like, fundamentally better than somebody who is going to the summit.

登山不是一门手艺。

And mountaineering is not like a craft.

它就是一种人正在做的活动而已。

It's just an activity that they're doing.

我不觉得我天生就比他们强。

I don't think that, like, I am innately better than them.

这种想法是源于我曾经经历过别人否定我想做的事、想探索的事，或者质疑我有没有资格去做——你还记得吗？有位喜马拉雅地区资深的登山老前辈曾对我说：‘这种地方，可不适合你这么个小姑娘。’

And that comes born from having those experiences of, you know, people discrediting what I might want to do or or be curious to do or be capable of doing or my deservingness of, like, you and I remember I got told somebody said to me like a old old stalwart of mountaineering in in the Himalayas who said like, you know, this is no place for a cute little girl like you.

我当时就愣住了，真不知道该说什么。

And I was like, I don't I'm at I don't know.

我当时就说：是啊。

I was like Yeah.

那我该怎么回应呢？

What do we what do I say to that?

就是说，

Like

你遇到这种情况会怎么处理？

What do you do with that?

没错。

Right.

在哪方面？

In what way?

在哪方面？

In what way?

其实我也可以一笑置之，心里想想：我懂的。

Like, it's and both also I could, like, you know, again, giggle about that and be like, I know.

这难道不挺有意思的吗？

Isn't it so fun?

像我这样可爱的小姑娘，就在这儿闲逛，

A cute little girl like me is just hanging out here and

你呢，大块头，也在这儿爬这些陡峭的山。

Climbing these these mountains just like you are, big gnarly dude.

但是

But

我觉得，这件事对我而言的关键在于，我选择了追求能力这条路。

I think that one of the things of, you know, how that showed up for me is that I chose this pursuit of competence.

对吧？

Right?

所以我特别想证明自己，让别人看看：瞧，我行的。

So, like, I wanted to really have this, like, defense of look at me.

就算我年轻，就算我爬山才这么点时间，我也能爬到这个水平。

Even if I'm young, even if I've only been climbing for this amount of time, like, I can do it to this level.

我的表现真的很棒。

Like, I'm gonna my show is really tight.

我会用一种特别的方式展现我的专业能力，比如我的医疗经验和技能。

My I'm gonna bring a level of competence in a special way like my medical experience and skills.

我要确保这一点始终优于那些在其他领域经验更丰富的同龄人所能带来的水平。

I'm going to make sure that that's something that's always above what my peer who has more experience in other area might be able to bring.

这是属于我自己的东西，不是为了给别人看的。

And that's my own that's not for anyone else.

这是为了我自己。

That was for me.

对我来说，能够每晚安心入睡，每天照镜子时看着自己的脸说：即使我站在这里是因为别人只认可我的独特之处，但我确实在尽全力做到最好。

And was for me to be able to sleep at night and look at this face in the mirror each day and say, even if I am here because somebody was celebrating my exceptionality only, I am doing the best job that I can do to be here.

所以我对这一点感觉很好。

And so I feel really good about that.

不管出于什么原因让我站在这里，我都清楚自己已经尽了最大努力。

Like, if whether whatever reason I'm here for, I know that I'm doing the best job I can be to be here.

我没有把这当成理所当然。

I'm not taking it for granted.

我正在以自己觉得合适的方式去追求这项技艺，因为我想要从中获得什么，以及我想如何与这个地方互动。

I'm I'm pursuing this craft in the way that feels correct for me and what I wanna get out of this and how I wanna interact with this place.

对。

And Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起我们俩在史密斯岩度过的那个冬天，那是七千二百一十二天前的事了。

It's making me think of it's making me think of the winter that we were both in Smith Rock of the 7,212 ago.

没错。

And Yeah.

我那时刚听说，如果想被认真对待为攀岩者，你得能爬五级十二难度的路线——我想你可能也有类似的感受，虽然我觉得没人会不认真对待你，但你大概也和我一样，渴望被当作攀岩运动员来认可，而不是被当成那些无关紧要的小角色。

I had just been been told probably that, like, if I was gonna be taken seriously as a rock climber and, you know, like, you, I think, probably were having some of the same even though I didn't think anybody didn't take you seriously, I think you were having some of these same, you know, desires to be taken seriously in a range as a climbing athlete and not in, these little that's the same.

也许我只是把自己的想法投射到你身上了。

Maybe I'm just projecting that onto you.

但你当时在挑战五级十四难度的路线，而我却被提醒：如果你想被人当回事，至少得先爬得动五级十二难度。

But, you know, you were pursuing these, like, five fourteen projects, and I was told, like, if you even wanna be taken seriously at all, you have to be able to climb five twelve.

所以对我来说，这虽然是个小项目，但在我的世界里却是个大工程，我拼命想完成它，好证明自己确实是个攀岩者。

And so I had this, like, little, in my world, a very big project that I was trying to to send to prove that I was, like, a climber.

那段经历太棒了，我特别喜欢。

And it was such an amazing experience, and I loved it so so much.

我喜欢衡量自己的进步，也喜欢其中包含的运气成分。

And I loved measuring progress, and I loved the element of luck that went into it.

而且，登山运动里所有让我着迷的地方，在那个项目里我都能感受到。

And, like, all of the things I love about mountaineering, loved in that too.

当我终于实现了目标，爬上了那条我专门研究过、也摸索出适合我的路线后，有人跟我说，嘿，你接下来是不是打算挑战个五级十二的线路？

And when I achieved my goal of climbing this, like, very specific route that I learned and learned how to make it work for me, somebody said, like, oh, I said, oh, I'm gonna climb I'm in a project like this five twelve next.

他们还说，你知道的，你不如干脆去把公园里所有五级十的线路都爬一遍。

And and they were like, you know, you should really just go and climb all the five tens in the park.

那可能对你来说是个不错的目标。

That would probably be a good goal for you.

这时候我又意识到，没错，我不能为了别人去爬。因为别人怎么看我、认不认可我的价值，这些都不是我能控制的。

It's like, again, it was that realization that, yeah, I can't be doing this for the them because the them isn't gonna I don't have any control of how they're gonna see my, you know, worth and belonging.

而且，说实话，你可能是在投射，但你投射得挺准的，因为这事儿确实挺让我意外的。

And, I mean, you may be projecting, but you're also projecting well because, you know, it's it's not that so that was really interesting for me.

是的。

Yeah.

我想跟你深入聊聊这一点，你之前也提到过。

One of the things that I want to dig into a little bit here with you is this and you touched on it earlier.

在山里，我们常常直面悲伤和失去。

But in the mountains, we frequently come in contact with grief, loss.

同时，我们也常常上山，就是为了疗愈悲伤和失去。

And we also frequently go to the mountains to heal from grief and loss.

我们也会去别的地方。

We go to other places as well.

那你觉得，待在山里有什么特别的，或者说是特别有帮助的地方？不一定非得是独特的，但我有个想法：我们其实从来不会真正‘痊愈’。

So what what do you think it is that is unique or maybe helpful, maybe it doesn't have to be unique, about being in the mountains that helps us process and and be we never fully I I have a theory that we never really actually heal.

我不太喜欢‘痊愈’这个词。

I don't like that word.

我觉得我们只是慢慢适应了。

I think we just adapt.

我觉得伤疤这个词，虽然说的是伤疤，但听起来太负面了。

I think a scar a scar, but scar has a very negative connotation.

我觉得我们需要一个词，能表达伤疤却带着积极的意义。

I think it could also we need a word for scar that has a positive connotation.

我经常思考伤疤这件事，尤其是在山里反思的时候。我觉得正是通过这种内省，我们才分得清什么是伤疤——那是伤口愈合后留下的痕迹，什么是痂——那是正在愈合中的标记。

Well, I I think about scars a lot, and I think about how the process of reflecting internally, and I do a lot of this reflection in the mountains, is it's how we discover what is a scar, which is, you know, a mark of an injury that is healed, and what is a scab, which is a mark of something that is healing.

虽然‘痂’这词听起来有点恶心，但它其实特别美好。

And even though, like, the word scab is a yucky word, it's like it's a beautiful thing.

那是身体在自我修复过程中，自发地保护自己的一种方式。

It's your body's own ability to protect itself while it's in the process of healing.

在我看来，山地恰恰就是这样一种地方。

And to me, the mountains so much are exactly that.

它能清晰地映照出什么是伤疤、什么是痂，以及我们此刻在自我修复的旅程中，处于哪个阶段——无论我们以怎样的方式在修复自己。

They are this illuminator of what is a scar and what is a scab and where we are in our in our process of, you know, self repair as as it were in in whatever capacity that we can be.

我慢慢意识到，吸引我的地方在于，那种让你不得不敞开心扉的环境，反而让人感觉特别踏实。

And I think that what's the draw for me that I've recognized over time is that it feels a little bit good to be in a place that provokes your vulnerability as a requisite part of being there.

当你愿意再次冒被伤害的风险时，真正的疗愈才更有力量。

And there's far greater healing potential when you have a risk of being hurt again.

比如说，一段人际关系的创伤，你当然可以独自疗愈。

It's this idea of, like, you can heal from, we'll just say, like, a a personal relationship.

对吧？

Right?

当你的内心受伤，或者遭遇了人的背叛。

So where your heart is hurt or you have, like, human betrayal.

你一个人也能慢慢好起来。

You can heal from that alone.

但我要告诉你，当你带着过去的恐惧、记忆、痛苦和悲伤，再次向另一个人敞开心扉时，那种疗愈才真正全面得多。

But I can assure you that in reengaging in a vulnerability with another human, with all of the fear that you carry with you of what and the memory and the pain and the grief of what has happened, it's a far more comprehensive process when you're engaging in that same vulnerability.

所以我觉得，高山之所以能成为我们灵魂的庇护所，正是因为它们能唤起——正如你刚才说得特别对——那种悲伤、痛苦和恐惧。

And so I think that how the mountains interact with us as these, like, incredible sanctuaries for our souls, they have the potential to elicit, you know, yes, as you say really correctly, grief and pain and fear.

它们也让我们置身其中，明白自己依然能挺过来。

And they also allow us to exist within that and know that we're we can survive.

你懂的。

You know?

我认为，正是这种必须直面脆弱的环境，才拥有如此深刻而治愈的力量。

And I think that that is the incredibly deeply healing power of being in an area that demands such vulnerability.

你书里有一句话特别美：登顶只是一瞬，下山才是余生。

You've, you had this beautiful line in your book that said, the summit is a moment and the descent is the rest of your life.

这种无常的感觉，像是你贯穿全书的一条主线，而今天我们这场对话也一直在呼应它。

This idea of impermanence, felt like was one of those themes that you, you know, pulled that thread that you pulled through your whole book, and we've it's been pulled through this conversation.

在山里，这种无常的体验是怎么体现的呢？你想想，到处都是例子。

How does that experience of impermanence in the mountains where, you know, we have so many examples?

对吧？

Right?

山路一转眼就被雪盖住了。

Like, the trail gets covered by snow.

冰川在融化。

The the the glacier melts.

裂缝被掩埋了。

The crevasse gets covered.

绳子也磨坏了。

The rope frays.

你知道吗，这其中有一种特别的美。

You know, there's all this sort of beauty in it.

但同时，我也感到一种淡淡的惆怅—— things are changing, things are disappearing.

There's also this sort of, I'd say, melancholic longing, like things are things are changing, things are disappearing.

这种无常的体验，是怎么一点一点影响你生活的？

How do these how do the how does this experience of impermanence sort of ripple through your life?

我觉得，就像你刚才说的，最美好的东西，往往都是我们留不住的。

I mean, I think that that similar to what you just said, the most beautiful things are the things we can't contain and keep.

对吧？

You know?

我从我孩子身上也看到了这一点。

And there's this I I watch it in my children.

对吧？

Right?

就是这种时刻。

Like, this moment.

比如，小学课堂里养蚕宝宝，看着它们变成蝴蝶，再放飞它们，让孩子体会失去的痛，也感受见证真正蜕变的美与回报——原来美就藏在变化之中，正因它不会永恒，才格外珍贵。

Like, they wanna hold I mean, it's the first grade classroom taking the caterpillars and letting them become butterflies and letting the butterflies go and experiencing the, pain of impermanence, but the beauty and the reward of witnessing something that go through a true metamorphosis and metamorphosis and, like, getting to experience how the beauty is contained in the evolution and the lack of it being permanent.

我也会从更实际的角度想，比如我住的这个小镇，你以前也住过，这里的食材非常有限，基本只能自己动手做。

And I think about it on a way less poetic level of, you know, I live in a town that you have lived in, and I have access to very limited food besides the food I make for myself.

我特别爱吃，也喜欢精心做饭，但以前我住过一个美食文化特别丰富的地方。

And I I love food, and I love making great food, but I also used to live in a town that had an amazing food culture.

那时候，厨师用心做的美味天天都有，我反而不珍惜了，天天吃，天天看，早就麻木了。

And I stopped appreciating really amazing food that was made for me with love and care by chefs and creativity because it was just available to me every day and I engaged with it every day and I didn't care anymore.

这周我到城里出差，突然意识到：我现在这种难得吃上一顿好饭、格外珍惜的感觉，反而比从前天天有更好。

And I just was noticing this week when I was in the city traveling and I was like, I would far rather have this experience that I have now where I can barely ever have the thing and I savor it.