你的饮食太差了 X 山地运动员

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

欢迎收听《上坡运动员》播客。

Welcome to the Uphill Athlete podcast.

今天我们要把《上坡运动员》和《你的饮食太差了》这两个播客合并播出，因为两位非常了不起的运动员、企业家，也是《你的饮食太差了》的创始人，今天特意来做客，跟我们聊聊。

And I'm gonna say the Uphill Athlete podcast times the Your Diet Sucks podcast today because I am joined by two amazing athletes, businesswoman, just all around incredible people who started a podcast, called Your Diet Sucks, and they were kind enough to come on the Uphill Athlete podcast today to speak with us.

所以，凯莉和佐伊，很高兴你们能来。

So, Kylee and Zoey, happy to have you on.

能来这儿特别兴奋，艾莉莎。

Pumped to be here, Alyssa.

是的。

Yeah.

很期待。

Excited.

谢谢你们邀请我们。

Thanks for having us.

当然。

Of course.

我特别想听听你们俩的背景，还有你们当初为什么要做这个播客，它到底讲些什么。

So I'd love to hear just a little bit about both of you and also just a bit about why you started the podcast and what it's about.

对。

Yeah.

那你们谁先来开始说吧。

So if you want to take it away first.

好啊。

Sure.

我和Kylee已经是最好的朋友了，差不多五年了。

So, you know, Kylee and I have been best friends for like five going on five years now.

我其实是在几年前，她为她丈夫的破纪录挑战做后勤支持时认识她的。

I actually met her while she was crewing her husband at a world record attempt a few years ago.

我当时就觉得，这是我见过最聪明的人。

And I was like, this is the smartest person I have ever met.

我们俩必须做最好的朋友。

We need to be best friends.

后来我们开始一起跑步。

And we started doing a lot of runs together.

因为她是个注册营养师，我经常免费得到她的营养建议，对我帮助特别大。

And since she was a registered dietitian nutritionist, I was getting a lot of free nutrition coaching and advice, which was very helpful for me.

但作为一名记者，同时又在从饮食失调中恢复，我和凯莉的友谊让我意识到，自己对营养有多少误解，犯了多少错误，或者抱了多少错误的想法。

But as, you know, both a journalist and an athlete in eating disorder recovery, my friendship with Kylee sort of revealed how many things I had wrong about nutrition, how many mistakes I was making, or how many misconceptions or misperceptions I had.

对我来说，每当我发现自己对某件事的理解全错了，反而特别兴奋，因为犯错恰恰是开启更有趣故事的起点，也是找到真相的契机。

And for me, like, my curiosity is always peaked when I find out all the ways in which I am incorrect about things because being wrong is the most exciting jumping off point to find a more interesting story and to figure out how to be right.

所以这个播客的很多话题——比如那些奇怪的流行饮食、新兴的科学研究，或者文化中的刻板印象——其实都是我和凯莉跑步时，或者喝着红酒聊天时最爱聊的内容。

And so, you know, a lot of the subject matter of this podcast, if it's like weird, you know, fad diets or emerging science or cultural narratives are the kind of like juicy topics that Kylee and I like to talk about when we're on our runs or when we're, you know, bonding over over a glass of rose.

我当时就想，哇。

And I just thought like, wow.

我们俩居然都有这么丰富的专业背景。

Like, we both have this amazing professional experience.

我们应该把我们的经验整合成一个形式，让更多人看到，毕竟她有这么棒的营养学背景。

We should combine it in a format for more people because she has this amazing, like, the the nutritional background.

而我作为记者，本质上就是一个专门提问题的人。

And I, as a journalist, I'm essentially a professional question asker.

我觉得，这种组合能让我们讲出一种很特别的故事视角。

And I thought that that would give us a pretty unique perspective to storytell from.

这太棒了。

I love that.

我还没听过多少人说，犯错反而是激发更多提问和学习的起点。

I will just quickly add that I have not heard many people say that being wrong is the jumping off point of asking more questions and learning more.

我想特别强调一下，因为这真的太了不起了。

And I I just wanna highlight that because that is incredible.

我希望更多人能有这种想法。

I wish a lot more people had that perspective.

所以

So

是啊。

Oh, yeah.

觉得自己总是对的，

Thinking you're right is

这恰恰是记者最不该追求的。

the worst thing you look for for

对记者来说，没错。

a journalist, Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，确实，我们每期节目都会试着从正反两方面来审视话题，看看各方的研究证据，包括中间地带，帮助听众更好地理解这些信息。

Well, I think, yeah, that was one thing too that, like, every episode that we have, we always wanna examine the topic from both sides to see, you know, what research exists on both ends of the spectrum and in between as well and then help people navigate that information.

有时候节目最后我们会说，好吧，这就是其中的复杂性，但最终怎么选，还是得你自己决定。

And we might end up at the end of the episode saying, like, well, you know, here's the nuance, but you kinda still you know, here's this is up to you to make that decision.

但我们努力呈现的方式，是让人能基于充分信息自己做判断，而不是像在社交媒体上那样，被动接受有偏见的内容。

But we're trying to present it in a way that's gonna allow people to to make their own decision in an informed way versus, a something that's biased and and they're just getting on the on socials or something.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

我听过一些节目，真的很喜欢最后那种感觉——不会觉得被强行引导到某个立场。

And I I've listened to, some of the episodes, and I do really enjoy coming to the end and not feeling like I necessarily am being, like, corralled one way or other.

就是简单地告诉你事实。

It's just like, hi.

不多说了。

No more.

太棒了。

Awesome.

这样我能做出更明智的决定。

Like, I can make a more informed decision.

所以，你们确实做得很好。

So, yeah, definitely doing your job there.

所以今天，我请你们两位来深入聊聊流行饮食法。

So today, I've asked the two of you to dive into the topic of fad diets.

我觉得这些饮食法太常见了。

I think that we see them very commonly.

尤其是在跑步圈里。

In running.

我觉得从广义的山地运动员角度来看，情况也差不多。

I think I also, uphill kind of comes from the perspective of, we'll say, like, general mountain athletes.

真的非常普遍。

Incredibly common.

是的。

Yeah.

什么空腹训练、低碳饮食，这些都算在内。

The, the whole fasted training and, low carb diet, all of that.

所以我们今天主要想聊聊流行饮食法，我先问一下，为什么你觉得耐力运动员最容易被这些饮食法吸引？

So we kind of wanna focus on, fad diets today, and I'll start off with why do you see endurance athletes as being the most susceptible or very susceptible to fad diets?

我让凯莉来从科学角度讲，但我先从文化和叙事的角度说说。

I'll have Kylee speak to the more like scientific perspective, but from like the cultural and like narrative side of things.

我们这一群人本来就特别极端。

We're an extreme bunch of people.

我们整天待在极端环境里，身边也都是极端的人。

We spend a lot of our time in extreme environments around other extreme people.

这种对极端的偏好，让我们更容易觉得：我都已经闲着没事跑一百英里、爬山当消遣了，

And I think that that sort of like that proclivity for extremity makes us additionally susceptible to being like, I already recreationally run a 100 miles and climb mountains for fun.

那为什么饮食上就不能也极端一点呢？

Like, why would that extremity not also extend to my diet?

我们平时训练的强度本来就很大。

Like, we're doing a lot of, like, pretty intense training.

耐力运动和山地运动尤其吸引一类特别执着的人，那种目标感超强的人。

And I think a lot of times, endurance sports and mountain sports particularly attract a certain type of pretty type a person, someone who's incredibly driven.

这种执着是一把双刃剑，一方面它推动我们完成长距离比赛，

And that drive can be a double edged sword because it on one hand is the thing that, you know, propels us to, you know, long distance finishes.

它推着我们从山上冲下去。

It propels us off mountains.

但如果我们不能很好地驾驭这种倾向，那种没有被正确引导的执着，可能会让我们走向一些低效的方式，去追求突破和卓越。

But sometimes if we don't harness it in quite the right way, that proclivity for, like, obsession that's not properly channeled can sometimes catapult us into less productive ways of expressing that desire to push the envelope, less productive ways of trying to be excellent.

我们本来就是一群已经做了非凡事、拥有超强自律的人。

And I think it's just like that where, like, we're a self select group of people who already do extraordinary things and are extraordinarily disciplined.

而这种特质的另一面可能是：既然如此，为什么饮食上也不能极端一点？为什么登山运动常常会变成封闭的小圈子？

And I think sort of like the shadow side of that can be like, well, why would that can also extend to sometimes restrictive diets or the fact that like a lot of times mountain sports, like, become pretty insular communities.

当你一直信赖的那个人——比如帮你系绳的伙伴——说他试过某种方法，有效，可他只有自己一个样本，就说‘生酮饮食对我有用’。

When someone who, like, you know, you've been tied into, like like, the the person that you trust who belays you does something and they say it works for them, they have an a sample size of one and they say, well, keto works for me.

这种说法会让你更容易被影响。

That can make you additionally susceptible to that.

这并不意味着他的个人经验是错的，但你可能会过度看重这种极小样本的代表性。

And it doesn't mean that they're in of one experience is wrong, but you might be over indexing on how important that very small sample size is.

对。

Yeah.

从表现的角度来看，我觉得当我和人们合作时，他们总认为要想提升那一点点表现，就得靠那些流行饮食或极端方法。

And then from the I feel like my perspective from the performance side, like, when I'm working with people, they they think that, like, in order to gain that extra small percentage, like, the fad diet or the extreme thing is the way to go.

所以他们不愿意接受你说的均衡饮食这种说法。

And so they don't want to just be like, well, that you said balanced nutrition.

觉得这根本算不上什么靠谱的解决方案。

Like, that's not, like, a good enough answer for me.

于是他们就倾向于投身某个极端饮食的圈子，就为了感觉自己属于某个群体。

So, you know, they they latch on to a, like, wanting to feel like they belong to some certain, like, community, of, like, diet extreme.

另外，我也经常看到，他们想靠这些方法获得一点性能优势，或者那额外的一个百分点，但其实这种思路可能恰恰搞反了。

And then b, they want I see it a lot for, like, trying to gain a performance advantage or, like, that extra percent when in reality, like, the thinking there might be a bit backwards.

从教练的角度来说，莫里斯，我完全同意你的看法。

From a coaching perspective, I could not agree more Maurice.

我经常说，很多人一上来就盯着第59步，可前面的1、2、3步还没做好呢。

Like, I always liken it as a lot of times people are looking at step 59, and we're still not doing one, two, and three that well.

没错，我真是再同意不过了。

So, yeah, it's could could not agree more.

那么，我们刚才提到了几种，但运动员中常见的那些流行饮食到底有哪些呢？

So what are and we've we've thrown out a couple, but what are some of these fad diets that we commonly see for athletes?

我觉得，虽然低碳高脂饮食很常见，尤其是在山地耐力运动中，像生酮、生肉或者那些极端饮食方式也经常出现，

I would say I mean, while we see the low carb, high fat a lot, I think particularly in mountain endurance sports, we see when we're also talking about things like paleo or carnivore or those types of diets that are pretty extreme would be,

很糟糕。

bad.

我总是提醒人们，别轻易投资那些包装得很炫、名气很大的饮食法，因为真正有效的饮食，比如均衡的、不偏不倚的饮食——像地中海饮食——往往没有花哨的Logo，也没有网站专门收你的钱。

I always caution people against investing in a diet that has good branding and name recognition because oftentimes the diets that work like balanced agnostic diets, like the Mediterranean diet, like they don't have a cute little logo in a website where they can take your money.

我觉得这恰恰揭示了这些饮食法真正的终极目标是什么。

And I think that that is pretty revelatory about what the be all end all goal of a lot of these diets is.

比如马克·西森提出的原始蓝图之类的，你看到那些医生推出的饮食方案，其实他们就是想多赚点钱。

Like the primal blueprint or something by like Mark Sisson, like, you know, those kinds of things that you see by doctors that are, like, you know, they're just trying to make, like, a little bit of extra money.

这些才是真正的红灯警告，一看就知道是流行潮流。

Like, those aren't the fad diets that, you know, just, like, red flag right there.

我甚至认为，过分纠结体重是决定运动表现的关键因素，这种想法本身也是一种潮流。

I would even say that a hyper fixation on or an overemphasis on weight as being determinative for performance success is a fad.

这些观点在研究中并没有得到验证，它们的流行程度往往随着社会对理想体型的审美变化而起伏不定。

It's not validated in the research, and it sort of comes and goes depending on, like, where our cultural sort of, like, pulse check is around what bodies we currently find acceptable, desirable, and, like, worthy of value in our culture.

你懂的。

You know?

现在我们推崇的运动员体型，跟五年前、十年前、二十年前已经不一样了。

Like, the sort of bodies that we lift up as being athletes now are different than those we were lifting up five years ago, ten years ago, twenty years ago.

把身体——这本身就是生命的根本——当成一种短暂的潮流来对待，对表现和整体健康都会造成严重伤害。

And I think that people treating their bodies, the very stuff of their existence as a passing fad is really, really detrimental, not just to performance, but to your overall well-being as well.

所以我觉得，就像过分关注体重一样，这种观念看似流行，但本质上还是个潮流。

And so I think that just like the focus on weight, it's a it's a fad with staying power, but it is a fad.

对。

Yeah.

这个观点说得真好。

I think that's a great point.

我觉得，你这档播客要是想做营销，不如就主打‘健康饮食’这个方向。

I mean, I think a a really a good marketing strategy for your podcast could be just like good healthy diet Yeah.

贴纸。

Sticker.

我不确定这玩意儿能不能卖得好，但现在什么东西都得标上‘纯素’‘生酮’之类的标签。

Like, I don't know if it would sell that well, but, you know, like, everything is like, oh, vegan, paleo, whatever.

包装上明明白白写着这些字眼。

Like, they're literally the things on the package that will say that.

你就说它是均衡饮食、有益健康的一部分就行了。

Like, you just say part of a well balanced, great, staying healthy diet.

对。

Yeah.

但问题是，根本没人会买这种。

Except no one's gonna buy that is the thing.

所以，

So,

没错。

yeah.

而且我觉得，就着这个思路，我刚写完一本关于耐力运动补给的书，叫《耐力运动员的实用补给指南》。

And I think but also, like, I just I tried to on that note, like, I just finished my endurance fueling book, practical fueling for endurance athletes.

太棒了。

And Awesome.

我特意决定不在书里强调体重和体脂率，只想给大伙儿提供一个有科学依据、又容易上手的资源。

I made the, yeah, like, the conscious decision to not focus on weight and body composition in the book and really wanted to provide a resource for people that was science backed, but also, like, easy to implement.

有时候，人们面对的信息实在太多了，反而不知所措。

And I think sometimes people get so overwhelmed with information out there.

就连我一对一指导的学员，也经常被搞晕了，干脆死死抓住某一套饮食规则，觉得‘这才是正确做法’。

Like, even, like, one on one clients that I'm working with, they're just so overwhelmed that they, like, latch on to this set of rules in this diet because it's like, oh, this is the way that I need to do things.

可要是给他们一个更模糊、更平衡的建议，他们反而不知道该怎么具体操作。

And with a more maybe what they think is nebulous, like a more balanced, approach, they they don't really understand exactly how to implement that in the right way.

所以我给的都是明确的步骤，比如该增加哪些食物、怎么一步步来，这样拆解之后，大家反而更容易上手，我觉得这才是关键。

And so providing them with steps, action steps, or things that they can focus on, like adding in or getting more of in, etcetera, and and here's how you break this down and approach it, it it I think that helps people.

你懂的吧？

You know?

他们只是希望有个简单直接、能马上用起来的方法。

They would just want something to be able to, like like, kinda easily put into place in a way.

是的。

Yeah.

当然了。

Absolutely.

你刚才那么一说，让我想到我们训练人的时候是怎么一步步推进的。

You know, that's as you were saying that, it makes me think so much of how we progress in training people.

很多时候，我觉得心率训练就像是护栏或者辅助轮，帮人慢慢理解那种更模糊、更灵活的主观疲劳评分——我通常更倾向于引导大家往这个方向走，因为听过我播客的人都知道，我老爱开玩笑说：假如你正在爬山，大脚怪突然冲出来，一把抢走你的手表扔下悬崖，那你怎么办？

Like, a lot of times, I actually see heart rate training as almost like like the bumpers or the training wheels to help you to understand this more, in many ways, like, fluctuating and nebulous range of RPE, which is where I tend to like to lead people because I always people who listen to podcasts know me to say that, I always joke if you're on a mountain and Sasquatch runs up and grabs your watch and throws it off the cliff, like, what are you gonna do?

你就坐在那儿说：‘完了，我连心率都不知道，没法练了’？

Are you just gonna sit down and be like, I can't I don't know my heart rate.

那你怎么办？

What am I gonna do?

难道就因为没手表，这山就不爬了？

I can't, like, climb this mountain anymore.

我觉得运动员可能也有类似的感受，就是说，嘿。

And I feel like that's probably very similar to how athletes feel of like, hey.

我总觉得被一堆情绪压得喘不过气，因为我从来没学过怎么去倾听自己的身体。

I feel really drowned in having all this rage because I don't I haven't been taught how to just listen to my body.

所以我想知道，你怎么帮运动员慢慢放下这种刻板的模式，比如从严格的饮食，转向更灵活的方式，像说——

So I guess how do you help, athletes to kind of let go of that rigidity of those roles kind of, like, working more towards that from a from a strict diet to, like, hey.

我们可以改变这一切。

We can undo this.

我知道这是个很大的问题。

I know it's a huge question.

你就当个参考吧，怎么理解都行。

So take it kind of as you will.

我的意思是，我觉得关键在于——

I mean, I think I think, here's the thing.

有些事情我们很清楚，对耐力运动员的发挥是有帮助的。

It's like there are certain things that we know are going to help endurance athletes perform.

我觉得跟运动员聊的时候，有些事情特别重要。

So I think chatting with athletes about there's certain things in particular.

我就拿碳水化合物来说，我通常会教我的运动员们。

I'm thinking about carbohydrates, and, like, I like to teach my athletes.

对很多运动员来说，光告诉他们‘吃够就行了’，其实没什么用。

Like, for a lot of my athletes, if they've just been told to eat enough, that, like, doesn't help them.

所以他们更想知道具体该怎么做，比如说：

So they want more specifics on, like, okay.

这到底是什么意思？

What does that look like?

不同训练日的碳水摄入量应该怎么安排？

Like, what does this amount carb look like for different days of training?

所以我教他们先达到一个最低标准，然后重点放在饥饿感和饱腹感上，因为关键是：

And so I teach them how to kinda get themselves to a minimum, and then we focus on hunger and fullness because here's the thing.

单靠饥饿感和饱腹感来判断也有问题，尤其是训练量大的时候。

It's like, there are flaws with even just focusing on hunger and fullness, especially when you're training a lot.

你知道吗，你的瘦素和饥饿素水平可能会发生变化，让人很难判断到底该不该吃东西。

So, you know, your leptin and ghrelin levels can be altered, which can make it difficult to discern, like, should I be eating?

该吃还是不该吃？

Should I not be eating?

所以，教大家结合具体的训练情况，去分辨饥饿和饱腹感到底是什么样子，我觉得其实特别有帮助。

So teaching people how to recognize, like, what does that hunger and fullness look like in the context of having some specificity, I think, can actually be really empowering.

一旦你慢慢明白，比如在训练量大的日子，我到底需要多少碳水，

And, like, once you get a sense of, like, oh, okay.

然后大致找到那个量，也知道怎么听身体的信号，如果还需要更多该怎么调整，这时候我才觉得，人们真正能理解我想表达的这个理念。

This is about how much carb I need on a heavier day of training, and you kinda get yourself close there and know how to listen to the body if you need more, then that's kind of where, you know, I'm I'm trying to help people understand that concept, I guess.

我还想说，像我这样正在学习如何更好地倾听身体信号的人，

And I would also say that, you know, for folks like me who are maybe on that journey of getting to listen to like, learning how to listen better to their bodies.

觉得困难其实再正常不过了。

Like, it is really normal that it is hard.

我们生活在一个文化里，尤其是在运动和健身领域，到处都在教我们怀疑自己的身体。

Like, we live in a culture that, like, a lot of the messaging, particularly in the world of athletics and fitness, is trying to teach us to be skeptical of our bodies.

他们就是想推销东西，让我们不去倾听身体的声音，反而去依赖设备、节食方案、网红、专家或者训练计划，而不是学会优先尊重我们自己的感受和经历。

It's trying to sell us something so that we don't listen to our bodies and we listen to a device or listen to a diet or we listen to an influencer or we listen to a guru or we listen to a training plan as opposed to learning how to preference our own existence and our own experience.

我觉得这完全说得通，所以有时候人们觉得难，其实是很正常的。我就是想让大家知道，这种困惑是合理的。

And I think that, like, it just it makes a lot of sense that sometimes people struggle with it, and I just wanted to to validate that.

但与此同时，也有不少人从这种挣扎中获益。

But there are a lot of people who are benefiting from that struggle.

我觉得我们总该保持一点怀疑精神，多问问自己：为什么别人总让我别相信自己的饥饿感呢？

And I think always being skeptical of, like, why am I being told to not trust my hunger?

或者说，像瘦素和胃饥饿素那些情况倒不是这样。

Or, like, not in the case of, like, the leptin and ghrelin things.

对，确实有这种情况。

Like, there are, like yes.

运动确实会影响食欲，但我主要想说的是，很多运动员被告诉要喝水来抑制食欲，或者喝咖啡因为咖啡因能抑制食欲，又或者被告知别吃这个、那个只能在特定时间吃，因为这样能改变代谢。

Training does modify your hunger, but I'm speaking more in the terms of, like, when athletes are told to, like, oh, drink water to suppress your appetite, have caffeine to suppress your appetite, or, like, you know, don't eat this or eat this only at certain times of days because, like, it'll, you know, change your metabolism in this way.

这类信息太多，很容易让人搞混，确实是这样。

And a lot of that messaging can just really get our wires crossed and that yeah.

我总是建议大家回归到像凯莉这样的专家那里，同时也要相信自己的真实感受。

I would just always urge people to come back to working with an expert like Kylee and also believing their own experience.

对。

Yeah.

凯莉，我把你Instagram上的内容发给了别人。

I Kylee, I have sent your Instagram.

我特别喜欢你之前用餐盘做的那些视觉化展示，那种很直观的方式。

I loved when you were doing, like, the plates and and that kind of, like, very visual representation.

我之前也把那些内容发给过客户，跟他们说：

I have sent that to clients before and been like, hey.

你看看这个，能帮你有个基本的参考。

Take a look at this, like, just to give some kind of a basis.

但我认为其中很重要的一点，也跟你提到的性格特质有关，那就是我们做的事确实很难。

But I think one of the the pieces and I think this ties into, Zoey, what you touched on about personality traits is that so like, what we do is hard.

非常具有挑战性。

It it is very challenging.

你知道吗，跑完一百英里或者五十公里，甚至像登珠峰一样，你都得往深处挖。

You know, you have to dig quite deeply at the end of a 100 miler or 50 k, you know, climbing Everest.

所以我觉得，我们常常把‘艰难’‘吃苦’和饮食也联系在一起。

And so I think oftentimes, we really associate that having to be tough and hard, I think, also with our diets, as well.

我想知道你是怎么引导运动员的，让他们明白：饮食不需要真的那么痛苦，才能证明自己够硬核去完成艰难的事。

And so I'm curious how you kind of, like, nudge athletes towards your diet doesn't have to like, diet doesn't have to suck quite literally, like, to prove that you're tough enough to go do the hard thing.

我想说的是，吃苦本身并不一定就有价值。

I something I would say is I don't think toughness is always inherently valuable.

对吧？

Right?

我同意。

Like, I could I agree.

比如拿脑袋撞墙十个小时，这确实够硬核。

My head against a wall for ten hours, which would be a very tough thing to do.

但这么做带来的结果，和我真正看重的东西完全没关系。

But the outcome of that is totally decoupled from any of my actual values.

我觉得我们的文化在这方面有点混淆了，我们忘了该怎么庆祝结果，也忘了该怎么欣赏过程中的坚持。

And I think that our culture sort of, again, gets its signals crossed, and we forget how to celebrate the outcome or we forget how to celebrate perseverance in the process.

相反，我们只是单纯地赞美那些显而易见的东西——比如吃苦耐劳。

And instead, we just celebrate inherently, like, the the thing that that we think is easy to see, which is the toughness.

不是所有事情都非得头撞墙一小时十小时才行。

So, you know, you don't like, not everything needs to be banging your head against a wall for ten hours.

难，并不等于更好。

And just because it's harder doesn't mean it's better.

对吧？

You know?

在耐力运动里，我们确实常常喜欢挑难的路走。

And I think that a lot of times, again, endurance sports, we do kinda like to do things the hard way.

对吧？

You know?

我不确定这说明了我们什么，但确实如此。

Not sure what that says about us, but it is true.

所以我觉得，我们得对那种‘越难就一定越好’的思维保持更高的警惕。

And so I think that that makes it incumbent upon us to be additionally cynical of, like, any sort of thought process that's like, this is hard, so it inherently must be better.

说得对。

Good.

最艰苦的训练不一定对你最有效，你知道吧？

You could you know, the hardest training hardest is not gonna be the most beneficial for you, you know?

你当然可以去练Kelly或者Journeys，但结果不会一样。

Like, could go out and do Kelly and Journeys training, but the outcome is not gonna be the same.

我在过程中培养的意志力，并不能保证我真正在乎的结果。

And, you know, whatever mental toughness I have in that process doesn't guarantee the results that I actually care about.

我有时候也会提醒运动员，想想你从哪儿开始觉得‘越少越好’或者‘越严格越好’，你有没有试过反过来做？比如，要是多做一点会怎样？

And I I I also challenge athletes sometimes to think about where you have this idea of, like, less is better or more restrictive practices, but, like, have you tried the opposite approach, or have you, like, shifted that mindset to, like, well, what if I do more?

要是那样做，会发生什么？

Like, what would happen there?

要是我在饮食里加点镁，会有什么不同？

What if I tried to add magnesium in my diet or something like that?

我从来没真这么做过。

I've never actually done that.

所以，与其觉得‘越难越有效’，不如试着好奇一点，多去尝试不同的方法。

So, like, getting curious about experimenting with things rather than being like, well, you know, it's it's tougher to do it this way, so it's better.

我跟人聊天的时候，经常会提醒他们注意这一点。

That's just something else I like to add to people's, like, thought processes when I'm chatting with them.

这个观点我很喜欢。

I love that.

再回到具体的饮食方式，我就拿低碳高脂和空腹训练来说吧。

Along well, kind of going back to the specific diets, and I'll just pick out low carb, high fat, and fasted training.

我不确定空腹训练算不算一种饮食，但我觉得它属于我们常遇到的两种行为模式之一。

I I don't know if you'd exactly call fasted training a diet, but it kind of falls, I would guess, like, I would say, like, under patterns of behavior are two that we get all the time for mountain athletes.

你觉得这些饮食方式被人看重的好处是什么？

What are would you say, like, the perceived benefits of these diets?

你是说空腹训练这方面吗？

As far as, like, the fasted training goes?

你是说

Is that what

我刚才的意思吗？

I'm saying?

就是，嗯，当运动员来找你，说他们一直在这么做，你看到的是什么情况？

Like, yeah, like, what what do you see when athletes come to you and they say, hey.

他们一直坚持这样做。

I've been doing this.

你认为他们期待从这种做法中获得什么好处？

Like, what are the hope for gains from

比如，从这种做法中？

Oh, like from

坚持这么做能带来什么？

from taking that on?

对。

Yeah.

我看到最主要的问题是，他们以为自己的脂肪氧化能力会提升，从而帮助提高耐力。

The biggest thing that I see is, like, they think that their fat oxidation rates are going to improve, and so that that overall can then help them with endurance.

这几乎是他们坚持这种做法的最主要理由。

That's, like, the the biggest, like, argument for doing that.

但反过来想，如果不去这么做，反而可能避免骨骼应力损伤或荷尔蒙问题，尤其是现在越来越多的研究都指向这一点。

But, like, the alternative is, like, I feel like the the messaging of, oh, well, if you didn't do that, actually, like, maybe you would prevent bone stress injuries or hormonal issues, especially with, you know, the more research that's coming out.

我的意思是，虽然还需要更多数据，但对女性运动员来说，我们有没有真正关注到这些个体差异？

I mean, we need a lot more, but, like, for female athletes, you know, it it's like, also, are we paying attention to those sorts of differences between people?

就连我那些容易受伤的男性运动员，也没意识到，这种空腹训练可能正是导致他们反复出现骨骼应力损伤的原因。

Even for my male athletes that are, like, injury prone, like, they don't recognize that, like, oh, this fasted training could have actually, like, contributed to my bone stress injuries that I've been getting.

但我觉得这跟你提到的一样，现在大家普遍宣传的是：空腹训练能让你更坚韧，或者不吃饭能帮你减重。

But I think it's kinda to your point, like, it's promoted as like, oh, you can this is better for you as a your toughness if you don't eat beforehand, or it's gonna help you lose weight if you don't eat beforehand.

但事实上，即使对比过空腹锻炼和正常进食的两组人，体重和体脂的变化也没有明显差异。

And even when they've done comparison studies between people that fast for exercise and those that don't fast, there's not a difference in in weight loss or body count change.

所以，我觉得现在外面的误解太多了，不过我也确实看到，关于空腹训练的观念正在慢慢转变。

So, it's just you know, I I think there's just a lot of misconception out there, but I do I am hopeful that the the message is shifting actually in that in that in the fasting realm of things.

是的。

Yeah.

我也抱有希望。

I'm hopeful too.

说实话，我们曾经有一段时间大力推广过这种做法，那时候大家觉得它有助于身体适应脂肪供能。

I mean, that's I will say that we had a time period where we did promote that back when there was thought that it it could be helpful with fat adapt fat adaptations.

但现在我们完全转向了相反的方向，也在努力强调这一点：这种方式其实并不好。

We do not we've gone very much the opposite direction and have really worked on, which is another reason we're kind of, like, really trying to hammer this point home of this is not great.

所以我很感谢你们两位也支持这个观点。

So I'm appreciative of of you two also, yeah, backing that effort.

好消息是

The great news

通过有氧训练，你就能更高效地燃烧脂肪，而且这完全不用花钱。

is that doing aerobic based training will make you more effective at fat oxidation, and that one's for free, folks.

你照样可以吃碳水化合物，同时提升脂肪燃烧的效率。

You can still eat carbs and get more effective at burning fat.

这其实跟我们一开始说的那个观点有点像。

Well, it it's kinda like the the statement we were making at the beginning.

也就是说，别人这么做看似有好处，但真能带来那么大的差异吗？

Like, is the perceived benefit of someone doing that, is it actually gonna make that big percentage of difference?

对大多数问这个问题的人来说，答案很可能是否定的。

Likely not, for for the majority of people that are, like, asking questions about this.

所以这也是另一个需要考虑的问题：这种做法的风险，真值得换回那点可能的好处吗？

So that's the other thing to think about too is, like, are is the risk really worth any, like, potential benefit that this could provide?

对大多数人来说，我觉得不值得，反而不处理这个问题的风险要大得多。

For most people, I would say no, and it's actually gonna be a lot riskier for them to not deal with something.

我还注意到，很多人说：我没法这么做，因为吃了会胃不舒服，或者没时间。

And then the other thing that I see is just, like, people are like, well, I can't do this because my stomach it bugs my stomach or I don't have time.

所以关键是要让大家明白，运动前补充能量到底是为了什么，还有没有别的替代思路？

And so, like, having people understand, like, what is the purpose of, like, having fuel beforehand and what are some alternative ways to think about this?

你说是吧？

You know?

我觉得人们一听某个说法，就死死抓住不放，觉得非得这么干不可。

I just think people hear something, they latch onto it, and then they're like, well, I have to do it this way.

然后又说，我没时间按别的方法来。

And then I also like, I don't have time to do it the other way.

所以我觉得，我们这个播客的一个目标，就是帮大家解决这种困扰。

And so that's I feel like part of our goal as a podcast is to help people with that.

而我作为运动营养师的目标，是在澄清误解之后，帮大家搞清楚具体该怎么做。

And then my goal as as a sports dietitian to help people, like, figure out the how as well after we kinda, like, set set the record straight.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

我特别喜欢这一点。

I love that.

继续做我们在这个世界上该做的事吧。

Keep keep doing the work that we need in this world.

那你觉得这些饮食方式会带来哪些风险呢？

So what are some of the risks that you see, you know, from these diets?

不是的。

No.

我觉得很多人忽略了一点，就是心理健康方面的问题。

I mean, I think I think one that is missed out on a lot is, like, the mental health side of things.

这些饮食方式确实会对身心都造成负面影响。

So there's been mental and physical downsides to these diets.

对很多人来说，这种饮食方式甚至成了他们全部的身份认同。

And for a lot of people, again, it, like, becomes their full identity.

对不少人而言，这成了一种控制感的来源，他们根本无法摆脱，生活变得极度僵化，久而久之可能走向饮食失调，甚至更严重的异常进食行为。

They for for many people, it becomes a form of control, that they, like, can't break out of, and can't be it's very rigid, so they, like, can't break out of that and, can lead people down, like, a path towards an eating disorder or even, like, a more extreme just, like, disordered eating.

所以它在生理、社交和心理健康上都有害处。

So it has, like, physical, social, mental health, downsides.

从生理角度看，很多极端饮食往往会导致营养缺失，因为人们一味地限制或完全剔除某些食物。

And then physically, like, that increase oftentimes there's with a lot of the extremes, we're missing out on something because they're, like, restricting and cutting something out.

如果我们完全剔除某个食物类别，或者大幅限制碳水化合物，会不会因此错过了对肠道菌群有益的膳食纤维？

So, like, if we're cutting out a complete food group or, like, really limiting carbs or something, are we missing out on, like, beneficial fiber for our microbiome?

那微量营养素呢？

What about our micronutrients?

比如低碳饮食会提高骨吸收指标，增加应力性骨折的风险。

Like, all of the like, when we're doing low carb, it can increase, bone resorption factors, which can, increase your risk for stress fractures.

这些潜在的问题还有很多，我们可能根本没意识到自己正在错过什么。

So there's, like, all of these things that can happen or missing out or we might be missing out on.

对很多运动员来说，等他们意识到的时候，往往已经过去一段时间了。

And then for many athletes, like, they might not realize it until a little ways down the road.

有些人刚开始一两个月，确实感觉状态特别好，觉得这方法真管用。

Like, you know, some people are like, oh, I feel great, like, one or two months into this whole thing that they're doing.

但要是六个月、一年后再问他们，就会发现，唉，原来如此。

But then you ask them six months, twelve months later, and it's like, oh, okay.

可能我之前根本没意识到这些副作用，等发现问题时已经晚了——要么得了应力性损伤，要么甲状腺出问题了，要么肠胃彻底紊乱，走路都得频频找厕所，根本没法好好训练。

Maybe I didn't maybe I didn't realize that these are some of the downsides to this, and and it's too late because I gotta put on stress injury or something, or my thyroid ended up, like, going to crap, or my gut like, I can't stop pulling them around the side of the trail because I have to go to the bathroom because my gut's not functioning.

所以我觉得，这些影响往往要过很久才会显现出来。

So, I would say, like, for some of these things, it's just, like, you don't even see the full effects until long later down the road.

说得真好。

Love that.

Zoey，你有什么要补充的吗？

Zoey, do you wanna add anything onto that?

或者

Or

对。

Yeah.

我想强调的是，很多人选择这些饮食方式，其实是想通过饮食来重塑自我、找到归属感，或者获得一种掌控感。

I think I mean, the thing that I would emphasize is that a lot of times people choose these diets as, like, a way of, like, I, like, I need a different, like, to form an identity, to form a community, to have that sense of control.

这些需求本身都很正常，但如果你靠极端节食来满足这些心理需求，那代价太大了——你牺牲了运动和冒险的潜力，只是为了换一点虚假的掌控感，却忽略了真正需要解决的心理健康问题。如果能正视这些问题，反而可能带来更健康的饮食关系和更出色的运动表现。

And those are all very normal human desires, but using your diet as in, like, manipulating your diet to achieve that feeling is like you're you're sacrificing so much of your athletic and adventure potential at the altar of, like, feeling a little more in control and potentially not attending to a mental health issue that if attended to could lead to performance breakthroughs in a healthier relationship with food.

所以，人们坚持这些饮食方式的动机，其实都源于非常真实的人类需求。

And so, like, the desire to adhere to these workouts are totally based on, like, really valid human needs.

我知道听起来有点反直觉，但人其实特别喜欢别人告诉自己该怎么做。

Like, we love I know it sounds counterintuitive, but people actually love being told what to do.

严格一点的宗教反而更受欢迎，相比之下，宽松的就没那么多人追随。

Like, stricter religions end up being more popular and, like, then more relaxed ones.

人们出人意料地倾向于接受非常固定的思维和生活方式，因为这样做人反而轻松多了。

People are counterintuitively really driven to fairly rigid ways of thinking and being because it makes being a person so much easier.

对很多人来说，锻炼多少能满足一点这种需求。

And, I mean, for a lot of people, training can satisfy a little bit of that need.

但对另一些人来说，饮食开始承担起这个角色，而把饮食当作构建身份和归属感的主要方式，代价实在太大了。

But for other folks, diet starts to satisfy that, and there are huge downsides to allowing that to be your primary outlet for identity formation and community building.

对的。

Yeah.

我觉得你们俩都特别点到了心理层面，因为现在越来越明显，骨应力损伤虽然表面上是身体问题，但真正关键的是心理因素。

I think that's I love that both of you have really touched on the mental piece because I feel like we're I feel like it is becoming very apparent that bone stress injuries, you know, that there there's a lot of physical, taxing, but it's the mental piece.

错过吃饭这件事，在我们的文化里占了很大一部分，不能参与其中真的挺让人难过的。

And just missing out on food is such a part of our culture, and it's so sad not to be able to engage in that.

没错。

Totally.

我觉得这正是关键所在——我们总希望人们能拓宽对健康的理解。

And I think that that's one of the big, like, thing like, we always want to push people to sort of widen the lens on how they view health.

如果你对健康饮食执着到连和朋友外出吃饭都不敢、没法和家人或孩子共进晚餐、甚至在机场买顿饭都会焦虑崩溃，那这种状态真的健康吗？

And, like, if you're so obsessed with eating healthy that you can't go out to eat with friends, you can't have a meal with your family or with your kids or with a significant other, if you can't, you know, get a meal at the airport without panicking and, like, having a big emotional reaction, I don't know that that's that healthy.

所以我一直鼓励大家，就像凯莉说的，也要关注自己的社交幸福和心理健康。

And so I always want people, like Kylee said, to think about their social well-being, their mental health and well-being as well.

我们吃东西，可不只是为了练出更棒的运动体魄。

And we don't just eat to make our bodies like better athletic bodies.

食物承载着多种奇妙的意义。

Food serves multiple amazing purposes.

正因如此，这件事才这么复杂、有深度——它不只是给我们爬山提供能量，更能让我们成为更好的父母、伴侣和人。

And I think that's what makes all of this so tricky and complicated and juicy is it doesn't just fuel us up mountains, but it's also what can make us, like, better parents and partners and people.

有时候，我们太专注于运动表现，反而忽略了其他方面的滋养方式，结果损害了生活中更重要的部分。而真正平衡的饮食方式，兼顾身心各个层面，往往反而能带来更好的运动突破。

And sometimes we can neglect those aspects of how to fuel and how to show up more present in our lives to, like, to the detriment of that part of our lives because we get so focused on the athletic part when often sort of fueling in a way that balances both sides of that thing in a way that is balanced and does take into account different aspects of health will typically lead to better performance breakthroughs anyway.

是的

Yeah.

不是

No.

这完全没错

It's a 100% true.

没错

It's yeah.

坦诚相待很好，这样肯定确实让人感到被理解

It's nice to just be honest, like, yes, validating that.

对

Yes.

咱们继续尽力，一步一步来

Let's keep trying our best and, yeah, taking those steps.

那我们该怎么帮助运动员抵制这些饮食法呢？

So how do you how do we help athletes resist these diets?

我的意思是，你们两位通过做这个播客，当教练、作者和营养师，实际上已经走在了最前面。

I mean, you two, I feel like are in many ways at the forefront of this by starting the podcast, by being coach, writer, dietitian.

不过，我们到底能采取哪些措施，早点让人们对健康生活方式产生兴趣呢？

But, yeah, kinda like what are some of these steps that we can get people on a healthier track earlier?

那就去听这个播客吧。

Listen to the podcast, though.

说得对。

That's true.

很简单。

Easy.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不行。

No.

但说实话，最难的其实是分辨什么是跟风炒作，什么是极端做法。

I think, in reality, though, like, being able the tough part is, like, being able to recognize when something is a fad, right, or, like, an extreme.

所以我们做这个播客，就是想帮大家更好地应对这个环境，尤其是当社交媒体上充斥着那些听起来好得不像真的的信息时。

And so that's what we're trying to do with the podcast is help people navigate that world a little bit better, especially when they're bombarded with things on social media that, you know, might sound too good to be true.

这其实就是一个信号。

Like, that is a indicator.

比如，一旦听到‘完全禁止’或者‘特别严格’这类极端的词，我就知道有问题了。

It's like when when extreme words are used when I usually say when things are, like, completely cut out or really restrictive.

这往往是当前流行趋势的一个明显标志。

That's another, like, indicator that maybe, you know, this might be a fad that's happening right now.

我们也会鼓励听众，如果看到某条帖子，或者某个运动员在推荐什么，不妨去查查背后的科学研究，看看是不是真有依据。

Or, you know, we do encourage our audience and and people to look up, maybe if they're where where the scientific research is behind, like, post they might see or, like, if a pro athlete is talking about something, like, whether that's actually a valid thing.

不过我们也明白，不是每个人都会去查证，自己摸索确实不容易。

But we do recognize that that isn't what everyone's going to do, and it can be hard to navigate on your own.

所以这也是我们做这个播客的原因之一——帮大家更轻松地应对这个复杂的世界。

So, again, that's kinda why one of the reasons why we are doing the podcast is to help people navigate them, navigate the world, with them.

我们一直尽量避免给出绝对的建议。

And we always really try to avoid being prescriptive.

我们不会告诉别人该做什么或该怎么想。

We don't tell people what to do or how to think.

我们更倾向于提供一些思考框架和工具，帮助他们自己更理性地分析。

We try to give them frameworks and sets of tools to think more critically for themselves.

所以我要说，如果有人试图告诉你该怎样想，打压你的批判性思维，还特别爱下定论——尤其是那种在Instagram上晒腹肌、就把这当成全部资历的人，你得多留个心眼。

And to that end, I would say anyone who is potentially telling you how to think and is, like, trying to discourage critical thinking and who is trying to be overly prescriptive, particularly if they are just some guy on Instagram with abs and that's, like, the, you know, be all end all of his accreditation, be skeptical of that.

我知道这听起来有点荒唐，但人的大脑就是这样，很多人更容易相信那个晒腹肌的网红，而不是一篇有十二页方法论的枯燥科研论文。

And, like, I know that sounds ridiculous, but the way our brains work, we are a lot of us are more likely to believe the guy on Instagram with abs than, you know, the boring scientific paper that has a methodology section that's 12 pages long.

我觉得关键在于，认清人类大脑的运作方式，接受这一点，别对自己太苛刻，明白一点：当某个说法特别诱人，让你觉得‘我真希望这是真的’时，就要警惕了。

And I think that just, you know, being being aware of how our human brains work, making peace with that, giving ourselves grace, and sort of understanding that anytime something seems like like sticky in the way of like, oh, like, that's so tempting.

你越希望某件事是真的，就越要留意，因为往往恰恰是这些你最想相信的事，最后证明并不成立。

Like, I really want that to be true and paying attention to the things you want to be true because oftentimes those are unfortunately not the things that end up being true.

对。

Yeah.

你有没有发现，我们现在主要关注的耐力运动营养领域，正朝着更积极的方向发展？还是说，到处还是充斥着很多误导和陷阱？

Do you or have you found that the nutrition realm we'll we'll stick to, like, endurance sports for right now, is moving in, hopefully, like, more positive direction, or are you finding there's still a lot of misinformation and just kinda traps basically out there?

我觉得各种潮流总是层出不穷。

I think we're always I think we're the fads are always happening.

很多人其实还是在寻找一种身份认同，或者想获得某种运动表现上的优势。

Like, I think a lot of people are, again, searching for that identity or that performance advantage.

虽然我希望情况能变好，但人天然就会想找那种神奇的解决方案——比如一粒药、一种饮食法，能带来立竿见影的好处。

And while I wanna be hopeful about things, I I think it's natural for people to wanna look for that magic thing or, like, pill or diet or thing that could get them a potential benefit.

所以，我们才要教大家怎么自己去查资料、做判断，希望他们能避开那些越陷越深的坑。

And so that's why I think it is that's why we're equipping people with the ability to kind of be able to research this on their own or make a decision on their own so that they hopefully can make one that's going to, not lead them down a a dark rabbit hole.

很遗憾，人性短期内大概不会有什么根本改变，我们永远会被那些闪亮的新玩意儿吸引。

I think, unfortunately, human nature is probably not gonna change dramatically in the near future, and we're always gonna be drawn to the bright shiny object.

我们总是容易被那些新颖、承诺给我们最想要东西的东西吸引。

We're always gonna be drawn to what is novel and what promises us the thing we want most.

真正发生变化的是技术，尤其是社交媒体和注意力经济，这些方式特别擅长抓住并放大我们大脑的运作模式。

And unfortunately, the thing that is changing is technology, particularly in terms of social media and the attention economy because those modalities are really able to sort of, like, hijack and dial up to 11 how our brains work.

他们过分强调那些新颖但缺乏证据的东西。

And they really overemphasize what is novel and what might, like, lack evidence.

尤其是那些最火的媒体平台，比如Substack、播客、电子报和社交媒体，它们的样本量都太小了，人们现在接触的资讯越来越多都是这种单一来源的。

They really over like, the media that are thriving most, think, like, Substack, podcasts, like, the the newsletter, social media space, like, those are all in of one sample sizes, and a lot of the information people are consuming more and more is in of one.

很少再像以前那样，从多个渠道和专家那里交叉验证，也很少引用来源，更多是‘我做了冷水浴，瘦了12磅，你也该试试，点下方链接买我300美元的辅导课程’。

It's less like triangulated, like, stuff from various sources and experts, less citation of sources, much more like I did a cold plunge and I lost 12 pounds, so should you, buy my $300 coaching program at the link in bio.

不幸的是，这些注意力经济下的技术，已经把我们原本正常健康的本能给利用了。

And I think, unfortunately, a lot of these technologies in the attention economy have sort of hijacked our totally normal healthy human impulses for their own ends.

眼下最火的媒体形式和注意力经济，其实和真正的科学传播是背道而驰的——科学传播是缓慢的、有点枯燥的、不给明确答案的，反而让人留下更多疑问。

And unfortunately, the attention economy and the types of media that are really thriving right now are somewhat at odds with really good scientific communication, which is slow, kind of boring, isn't very prescriptive, leaves you with a lot more questions than answers.

但这些恰恰不是人们想要的。

And that's not what people crave.

人们想要的是明确的、确定的答案。

People crave, like, definite like, something that's definite.

他们不想要模棱两可的东西。

They don't crave nuance.