确保想法安全：托比·拉什与珍妮·菲尔丁

Everywhere 播客网络。

Everywhere Podcast Network.

你好，欢迎收听 Everywhere 播客。

Hi, and welcome to the Everywhere podcast.

我们是一个由创始人和运营者组成的全球社区，旨在支持下一代建设者。

We're a global community of founders and operators who've come together to support the next generation of builders.

因此，这个播客的宗旨就是创始人之间相互采访，探讨创业过程中的挑战与艰辛。

So the premise of the podcast is just that, founders interviewing other founders about the trials and tribulations of building a company.

希望你喜欢这一期节目。

Hope you enjoy the episode.

好的。

Alright.

今天非常兴奋能和我的好朋友、Ideem 的 Toby Rush 一起在这里。

Super excited to be here today with my good friend Toby Rush from Ideem.

欢迎各位来到 Venture Everywhere，这是我们与社区中创始人对话的播客。

Welcome everyone to Venture Everywhere, our podcast where we talk to founders in our community.

我们确实有很多这样的例子。

We certainly have a lot of them.

欢迎你，托比。

Welcome, Toby.

很高兴来到这里，珍妮。

Great to be here, Jenny.

很期待这次对话。

Excited to have the conversation.

很好。

Great.

你的经历非常有趣。

You have such an interesting history.

你住在堪萨斯城。

You live in Kansas City.

我觉得你在很多方面都走出了自己的路。

I feel like you've really done things your own way in many ways.

让我们稍微回溯一下，你最初是如何踏入创业领域的？是什么给了你信心和动力去开创自己的事业？

Take us back a little bit to your first journey into entrepreneurship and what really gave you the confidence and the spark to start your own?

这实际上是我第四个从零开始的创业项目。

This is actually my fourth startup from scratch.

所以我经常被问到这个问题。

So I've actually gotten the question quite often.

我当时就想，你在做什么？

I was like, what are you doing?

你为什么还要继续做这个？

Why are you still doing this?

这太难了，每天都是情感上的生死搏斗。

It is so hard and it is such an emotional knife fight every day.

所以我真的退后一步问自己：我为什么一直坚持做这个？

So I actually took a step back and was like, why do I keep doing this?

我只是热爱创造。

I just love to build.

从根本上说，我热爱打造产品。

Fundamentally at my heart, I love building products.

我热爱组建团队。

I love building teams.

我热爱创建公司。

I love building companies.

我热爱营造势头。

I love building momentum.

这就是打造者的旅程。

Just the builder journey.

这是第四个从零开始的项目。

This is the fourth one from scratch.

我的第一个项目早在2003年，已经超过二十年了。

My first one was way back in 2003, so over twenty years ago.

我们当时在叉车上安装摄像头，以实现数据采集的自动化。

We were putting cameras on forklift to automate data collection.

有个笑话是，我们让叉车司机变成了赛车手。

The joke was we let forklift drivers become race car drivers.

然后，计算机视觉把我带入了我的第二家公司，一家生物识别公司。

And then the computer vision took me into my second company, which was a biometrics company.

在智能手机普及生物识别之前，我们就已经在做基于眼睛的生物识别了。

We were doing an eye based biometric before biometrics on smartphones.

我想我只是太天真了，觉得我们有这些摄像头。

I think I was just too naive to think, like, we have these cameras.

为什么我们不直接用摄像头取代智能手机的密码呢？

Why don't we just replace passwords on smartphones?

我遭到了很多反对。

I got so much pushback.

他们说，这想法太蠢了。

They're like, that's a dumb idea.

如果人们真的要在智能手机上做生物识别，苹果和谷歌早就做了，而我们只是运气好。

If people were gonna do biometrics on smartphones, Apple and Google would already be doing it, and we got lucky.

那是一个时机完美的案例。

That was a scenario where timing was perfect.

所以我于2012年创办了这家公司。

So I started that company in 2012.

苹果在2013年推出了触控ID，也就是仅仅十八个月后，接着第二年又推出了Apple Pay，我们正好赶上了最佳时机。

Apple came out with Touch ID in '13, so just eighteen months later, and then Apple Pay the next year, and we were just right place, right time.

因此，我们成功将这家公司卖给了阿里巴巴。

So we were able to sell that one to Alibaba.

他们用了三年时间全面运行所有生物识别系统。

They ran all of biometrics for three years.

和中国一家大型科技公司合作，真是有太多离奇的故事了。

Crazy stories working with a major tech player in China.

下一个项目，想法很好，但时机太差。

The next one, it was a great idea and terrible timing.

我们试图为网页二用户打造一种无缝迁移到网页三的方式，但根本没有任何网页二用户愿意迁移到网页三。

We tried to build a really seamless way for web two users to move to web three, and no web two users were moving to web three.

所以那时我远远领先于时代潮流。

So I was way too far ahead of the curve there.

所以现在我又重新开始创业，依然专注于身份认证领域。

So now I'm back building again, still in the authentication identity space.

过去三家创业公司都主要集中在身份认证、网络安全和金融服务领域。

The past three have all been in this authentication identity cybersecurity predominantly financial services.

我依然乐在其中，不断创造。

Just still having fun building.

第二个公司时，你开始接触到这个领域的早期动向，这很有趣。

It's interesting with the second company where you started to get into the rumblings of this space.

也许你带着一种初学者的心态，或者有些人称之为天真的心态，而事实上，这正是你成功的原因。

Maybe you went in with a beginner mindset or a naive mindset as some might call it, and in fact, that led to your success.

通常，这里存在一场争论。

Oftentimes, there's this debate.

对于二次或三次创业者，或是新手创业者，我们都投资，因为我们发现，有时候正需要这种天真，才能去做那些对抗现有巨头的疯狂事情。

Second time, third time founders or novice founders, we fund both because we find that sometimes you need that naivete just to do something that is going against incumbents and doing that crazy thing.

而有时候，拥有这个领域的经验则能成为巨大的加速器。

And then sometimes having experience in the space can just be such an accelerant.

我觉得你在打造的这家公司就是如此，你对它充满热情。

I feel like that's the case in the company that you're building and you're so fired up about it.

能跟我们多讲讲是什么让你兴奋，以及Ideem的愿景吗？

Tell us a little bit more about what got you excited and the vision for Ideem.

我们在Ideem所做的，是如何让认证流程，特别是支付认证流程变得简单且无形？

What we're doing here at Ideem is how do you make the authentication process, specifically payment authentication process, easy and invisible?

当用户进入商家的支付流程时，点击支付就是那个神奇的瞬间。

When someone goes on the merchant process, if you hit pay, that's the magic moment.

在此之前，商家已经投入了大量精力。

All this energy has been spent by the merchant ahead of time.

这正是银行和支付方式各方都渴望实现的。

That's what the banks and the payment methods, everybody wants that.

这正是你想要达成的目标。

That's what you're wanting to do.

我想点击支付。

I wanna hit pay.

特别是在新兴市场，当你想点击支付时，会遇到很多摩擦。

And especially in emerging markets, there's so much friction that happens when you wanna hit pay.

因此，我们开发了一款非常简单的软件，让支付认证流程变得无缝且无感。

So what we've done is develop a really simple piece of software that makes that payment authentication flow seamless and invisible.

具体来说，我们可以为所有相关方降低摩擦、欺诈和成本。

Specifically, we can reduce friction, fraud, and cost for all parties that are involved.

对我来说，这项技术实际上是与一家全球五大银行共同设计的，他们希望消除双重身份验证，使其变得无感。

The for me was piece of technology is actually codesigned with a global five bank that wanted to eliminate two factor authentication, make it invisible.

所以我们有一款非常酷的软件，它通过密码学与设备绑定，非常技术宅，我很喜欢。

So we have this really cool piece of software that cryptographically binds to the device and is super geeky and technical, which I love.

当我看到它时，我心想：天啊。

When I saw it, I'm like, oh my gosh.

新兴市场会非常需要这个，因为他们大量使用短信验证码或WhatsApp进行OTP验证。

Emerging markets would so be able to use this because they do so many text messaging on OTPs or WhatsApp.

他们把你重定向到应用中去确认某事，但整个流程非常糟糕。

They redirect you to the app to approve something, and the flow is terrible.

这源于我在新兴市场积累的大量经验，意识到新兴市场的即时支付意味着即时欺诈。

And it was because of my experience with so much emerging markets and realizing that instant payments in emerging markets means instant fraud.

因此，它们往往在前端进行大量额外的身份验证，这增加了摩擦，虽然降低了欺诈，却让体验变得极差。

And so they tend to do lots of extra authentication on the front end, which is friction, which reduces the fraud, but makes experience terrible.

因此，这源于对身份验证领域的深入理解、对新兴市场的洞察，以及意识到：这是一个巨大的需求，但问题并不在美国。

So it was a combination of really understanding identity authentication space, understanding emerging markets, and saying, hey, this is a big need, but it's actually not in The US.

与许多美国投资者交谈也十分有趣。

It was also interesting talking to a lot of The US investors.

是的。

They're like, yeah.

这根本不是个问题。

That's not really a problem.

我看不出来。

I don't see it.

你在印度尼西亚、菲律宾或拉丁美洲做过多少支付业务？

How much have you done payments in Indonesia or The Philippines or Latin America?

我们在Ideem正在构建一款非常简单的软件，让新兴市场中的支付认证变得简单且无感。

What we're building at Ideem is a really simple piece of software that makes payment authentication easy and invisible in predominantly emerging markets.

你能谈谈进入新兴市场的经历吗？

Can you talk a little bit about having entered emerging markets?

我环游过世界，但花了很长时间才做出我的第一笔新兴市场投资。

I've traveled around the world, but it took me a long time to make my first investment in an emerging market.

现在我们在非洲和拉美都有投资。

And now we invest across Africa, across LatAm.

我们还投资了菲律宾，你刚从那里回来。

We've invested in The Philippines where you just came back from.

当你刚开始在新兴市场工作、销售和参与时，感觉怎么样？

What was that like when you first started working and selling and being involved in emerging markets?

再说一遍，这正是曾经亲历过这些经历的好处。

Again, this is the benefit of having been there and done that.

我打电话给印度尼西亚最大的钱包之一的首席执行官，说：我有一个新产品，一个新想法。

I called up the CEO of one of the largest wallets in Indonesia and said, I've got this new product, this new idea.

我认为它在大型银行那里行不通，而它最初就是为大型银行设计的，但在新兴市场却很有效。

I think it's not working with major banks, which is where it was initially designed, but it's working in emerging markets.

于是我向他描述了这个产品。

And I described it.

他立刻说：天哪。

He was immediately like, oh my gosh.

你们在做加密设备绑定。

You're doing cryptographic device binding.

我们每天要发送近一百万条一次性密码。

We send almost a million OTPs every day.

你们用掉多少条一次性密码？

You spend how many OTPs?

他们发给WhatsApp的短信数量多得惊人。

It was crazy, the number of OTPs that they would send these text messages to WhatsApp.

他于是说，是的。

And he's like, yeah.

这是一个重大问题。

It's a major issue.

这是董事会层面的讨论。

It's a board level discussion.

这是一笔巨大的成本。

It's a ton of cost.

这带来了极大的不便。

It's a ton of friction.

监管机构正紧盯着我们，要求我们做出改变。

The regulators are breathing down our neck to do something different.

我说，如果我们这么做、这么做、再这么做，就会有帮助。

I'm like, so if we did this, this, and this, that would help.

他回答，绝对如此。

He's like, absolutely.

这是一个例子，因为我有一个人脉网络，这让我得以进入这些市场。

That was an example of because I had a network, that was my entry point into those markets.

由于我与阿里巴巴在东南亚的合作，我做了大量工作。

And I've done a lot of work because of my work with Alibaba across Southeast Asia.

所以进入菲律宾、马来西亚、泰国或新加坡，对我来说要容易得多。

So going into The Philippines or Malaysia or Thailand or Singapore, that's just so much easier for me to do.

然后，拥有优秀的投资者——这是我学到的，你知道，我的第四家公司，所有的钱并不是都一样。

And then having great investors, again, the thing that I've learned, you know, my fourth company, all the money is not the the same color.

这确实如此。

And it's so true.

理解商业、能建立关系、能引荐资源的投资者，力量非常强大。

Investors who understand business can make relationships, can make introductions are so powerful.

因此，在本轮融资时，我并不是在寻找只做本土市场的投资者，而是真正了解新兴市场的投资者。

And so as I was raising this round, I wasn't really looking for domestic investors or people who just did domestic, but really understood, in particular, emerging markets.

一方面，他们很快理解了我们的痛点，另一方面，他们提供了极大的帮助。

One, they quickly got the pain point, but then they've been super helpful.

如果不是这样，那就太疯狂了。

So short of that, it would be crazy.

几乎不可能直接空降到一个新兴市场国家，却指望在没有可信关系的情况下取得进展。

Almost impossible to just parachute into an emerging market country and think that you can make headway without trusted relationships.

能跟我们多讲讲你的市场进入策略吗？因为你的业务如此全球化，这令人兴奋。

Tell us a little bit more about your go to market because it is so global, which is exciting.

但你先从哪里开始，或者接下来去哪里？

But where do you go first or next?

说实话，这是我们觉得自己最不成熟的领域。

Honestly, this is the area that I think we're the least mature in.

我们还在摸索中。

We're still trying to figure it out.

理想情况下，我们可以通过合作伙伴进入。

Ideally, we can go through partners.

你也知道，合作伙伴只是想简单地销售产品。

You also realize partners want to simply go sell something.

他们不想还得去大力推广它。

They don't wanna have to go evangelize it.

所以目前的思路是我们还在摸索中。

So the current thought process, we're still figuring it out.

我们还处于早期阶段。

We're early.

我们得亲自去攻克几个市场。

We've gotta go tackle a few ourselves.

你几乎必须直接进入这些国家，获取一些人们熟知且信任的参考客户。

You almost have to go direct to get some reference accounts in those countries that people know and can trust.

然后你再尝试通过合作伙伴进入。

Then it's you try to go partners.

本地存在。

A local presence.

尤其是新兴市场，人们更信任本地人。

Emerging markets in particular trust locals.

再说一遍，他们喜欢这是美国科技，因为拥有美国技术听起来很酷，但他们也想销售。

Again, they love that it's an American tech because there's something cool about having an American technology, but they wanna sell.

所以，如果你能找到一个愿意实地作战、管理你的人际关系、能随时接电话沟通的本地合作伙伴，这将是一个非常好的组合。

So it is a pretty good combination of if you can find a local partner that's willing to be boots in the ground, manage your relationships, be the person that can pick up a phone call and talk to.

但同时拥有一个被全球大型银行和顶尖网络安全领域广泛使用的酷炫美国技术，这是一记漂亮的组合拳。

But having a cool American technology that's used globally by really big banks and really deep cybersecurity is an interesting one two punch.

你能稍微谈谈这个领域更普遍的挑战吗？

Can you talk a little bit about the challenges in this space more generally?

现在有很多人涌入身份认证领域。

So there's a lot of folks jumping into identity.

我认为我们很多人都认为，这是当今和未来的一个痛点。

I think many of us believe that this is one of the pain points of today and tomorrow.

在这个领域工作面临哪些挑战？

What are some of the challenges about working in this space?

由于这件事确实很难，所以人们总是充斥着恐惧、不确定性和怀疑。

And there's so much fear, uncertainty, and doubt that people want to throw around it because it is hard.

当你思考身份时，有两个方面。

There's two aspects when you think about identity.

首先是身份验证。

There's identity proofing.

一次性证明你是一个真实的人，你确实叫珍妮，并且你就是你所声称的那个人。

So prove one time that you're a human and that you really are a Jenny and that you are who you say you are.

然后，你如何持续地对这个档案进行身份验证？

And then how do you continue to authenticate against that profile going forward?

那么，你如何最初证明自己是一个真实的人，并且是你所声称的那个人？

So how do you initially prove that you're a real human and you're the human that you're claiming to be?

然后，你如何让这种线下身份轻松、安全且无缝地延续到线上世界？

And then how do you make it easy to continue to project that offline identity into an online world in a way that is both very secure but very seamless?

挑战在于帮助人们理解你试图解决的问题是什么，然后从更长远的角度思考行业标准。

So the challenge is helping people understand that what is the problem you're trying to solve and then thinking longer term, more industry standards.

因为这里涉及太多可互操作的组件，人们不会采用完全专有的解决方案。

Because there are so many interoperable components here, people aren't gonna go adopt a completely proprietary solution.

但你可以采用专有方案，不过接口几乎必须是基于标准的。

But you can have a proprietary approach, but the interface almost has to be something more standards based.

另外，我一路下来学到的是，你可能拥有世界上最具创新性的技术。

Another thing that I've learned along the way, you can have the most amazing whiz bang thing in the world.

但如果你是唯一这样做的，人们不会为了适应你的做法而彻底改变他们的一切。

But if you were the only one that does it that way, people aren't gonna just up at wholesale change everything they're doing to fit what you're doing.

因此，理解实现的便捷性。

So understanding ease of implementation.

实现的便捷性可能是阻碍进展的最大因素之一，尤其是在金融服务领域。

Ease of implementation is probably one of the biggest inhibitors to progress, especially in financial services world.

如果难以实现，那就别想了。

If it's hard to implement, forget it.

理解所谓的身份验证（IDV）和持续认证的不断变化的格局。

Understanding the evolving landscape in what's called identity verification or IDV and then the ongoing authentication.

开放银行正在新兴市场以一些非常有趣的方式推动这一进程。

Open banking is really pushing a lot of this in some really cool ways in emerging markets.

所以银行正在变成钱包。

So banks are turning into wallets.

银行正在变成开放的API。

Banks are turning into open APIs.

当然，在过去十二个月里，我们看到了智能代理的兴起，一切都在向代理化发展。

Of course, in the last twelve months, we've seen the rise of the agents, the agentic everything.

但特别在金融服务领域，我该如何支付这笔费用？

But in particular, financial service, how do I pay for this?

我该如何授权一个代理代表我购买东西？

How do I give an agent authorization to buy something on my behalf?

这听起来相当可怕，因为一旦出错，这个代理可能会买下大量商品。

That's a pretty scary thought because if it goes wrong, that agent buys a whole lot of stuff.

Visa刚刚发布了一系列关于代理支付框架的公告。

Visa just came out with a bunch of announcements around an agentic payment framework.

很多人都在试图弄清楚这一点。

A lot of folks are trying to figure it out.

这是一个快速演变的格局，从传统的新兴市场——它们正努力摆脱现金——到一些高度复杂的代理以自主方式为我们行事。

It is a quickly evolving landscape between traditional old school emerging markets where they're just trying to get on and get away from cash all the way up to some really sophisticated agents acting on our behalf in an autonomous fashion.

这太疯狂了。

It's so crazy.

我的书里有一章讲菲律宾，我提到的一个故事发生在2007年。

I have a chapter in my book on The Philippines, and this one story that I recount is it's 2007.

一位朋友从菲律宾回来，说：‘我看到了未来’，并描述了当时那里的支付方式——全部都是通过手机完成的。

A friend comes back from The Philippines and is like, oh, I've seen the future, and recounts how payments were working there, which were all mobile at the time.

我的意思是，2007年，你就能通过手机转账，然后去麦当劳取现金，买个巨无霸。

I mean, literally 2007, you could transfer money through your phone, and then you could go to McDonald's and pick up your cash and get a Big Mac.

我记得2007年听到这个故事时，心想：我想成为这个未来的一部分，而我们在美国却远远落后。

I remember hearing this story 2007 and just being like, I wanna be part of that future, and we are so far behind in The US.

我们是最早使用手机、最早拥有电脑的国家。

We were the first to cell phones, first computers.

我们有电脑。

We have computers.

他们跳过了电脑，直接进入了移动时代。

They skipped computers, went straight to mobile.

他们没有信用卡。

They didn't have a credit card.

他们直接转向了移动应用。

They went straight to mobile apps.

有时候，这些快速跟进者能暂时超越我们，直到我们追上来。

Sometimes those fast followers get to leapfrog us at least for a while until we catch up.

许多这些新兴市场都非常有创新性。

A lot of these emerging markets, they're so innovative.

我们没有给予他们足够的认可。

We don't give them enough credit.

有时候，需求是发明之母。

Sometimes necessity is the motherhood of all invention.

他们发明了一些非常酷的巧妙方法来让事情运转起来。

And they've invented some really cool hacks to make things work.

完全正确。

Totally.

我书里提到的另一个概念是‘无处不在的心态’，我列举了几项特征。

Another thing I talk about in my book is this idea of the Everywhere mindset, and I go through a few of the characteristics.

我觉得你身上就体现了这种心态，但你又不是来自纽约、旧金山或伦敦之类的地方。

I feel like you embody that mindset, and yet you're not from New York City or San Francisco or London or whatnot.

跟我们聊聊堪萨斯城吧，那里的社区是怎样的？你是如何无缝融合这些不同世界的？

Tell us a little bit about Kansas City, the community there, and how you've been able to seamlessly pair these multiple worlds.

因为我觉得这太酷了，也令人印象深刻。

Because I think it's so cool and impressive.

我们平时很少听到或看到像你这样的人。

We don't hear or see about people like you all the time.

是的。

Yeah.

堪萨斯城并不总在创业热点城市的前列。

Kansas City is not always on the top of the list of where is entrepreneurship happening?

我认为我天生就很好奇。

I think I have a very curious disposition.

对我来说，当我从更宏观的层面思考生活的第一性原理时，最终都会回归到人际关系。

For me, when I think about first principles from life at a much larger scale, it really comes back to relationships.

你拥有这些深刻而有意义的关系，它们构成了你身份和人生喜悦的很大一部分，这真是一种令人豁然开朗的体验——当我80岁时回望一生中真正享受的时刻，那一定是因为我身边的人、我们一起走过的旅程和那些关系。

You have these deep meaningful relationships and that is much of the source of your identity and joy in life, and that is really an eye opening experience of like, oh, when I'm 80 years old and I look back on the things that I've enjoyed, it's gonna be because of the people that I was with, the journeys that we've had, the relationships.

而不是我赚了多少钱，不是我拥有什么车，也不是我住的房子有多大，真正重要的始终是这些关系。

It's not gonna be how much money I made, it's not gonna be the car I had, the size of house I have, it's really gonna be these relationships.

因此，如果我能在我能掌控的任何地方，尽可能地优化生活以建立更深厚、更有意义的关系，我将成为世界上最富有的人，拥有我们真正珍视的财富。

And so if I were to really optimize my life wherever I could for deeper and more meaningful relationships, I will be the wealthiest people in the world with the treasure we actually all care about.

这听起来非常有道理。

And it makes so much sense.

当我对别人这么说时，他们会说：‘当然了。’

When I say that to people, they're like, well, of course.

但人们的生活方式却并非如此。

But people don't live their lives that way.

就像是，我能在这儿多赚点钱吗？

It's like, can I get a little bit more money over here?

我能在这座城市的另一个地方买个更大的房子吗？

Can I get a bigger house in this other part of the same town?

于是，你为了这些其他事情而牺牲了友谊和关系。

And so you end up sacrificing friendships and relationships for sake of these other things.

我和我妻子都同意，让我们试着好好规划一下，哪里能让我们在关系中获得最深刻的情感意义。

My wife, we both agreed of, hey, let's try to really optimize where do we think we'll get the deepest, emotional meaning for relationships.

那就是堪萨斯城。

That was Kansas City.

这要追溯到两千年初，当时我们正在决定要定居在哪里。

This was way back early two thousands when we trying to figure out where do we wanna land.

那时我甚至还没真正确定想成为一名全职创业者。

This is even before I really knew I wanted to be a full time entrepreneur.

这完全是基于第一性原理的早期思考。

This was very much first principles, early days thinking.

所以那就是堪萨斯城。

So that was Kansas City.

随着我们持续投资于人际关系并在这里堪萨斯城扎根，我们决定搬到了我最好的朋友家正对面。

And so as we've continued to invest in people and build roots, even here in Kansas City, we decided to move right across the street from one of my best friends.

然后另一位朋友也搬来了，另一位朋友也搬来了。

And then another friend moved in, another friend moved in.

我们在这里堪萨斯城有十四户人家，都是我世界上最要好的朋友。

We had 14 houses of, like, my best friends in the world right here in Kansas City.

像这样的情况，我在其他地方根本不可能重现。

Like, I could never recreate that somewhere.

因此，当我思考对我重要的事情并决定优先级时，这些人际关系绝对是其中非常重要的一部分。

So as I thought about the things that are important to me and wanna prioritize, those relationships are definitely a huge piece of that.

信仰也是一个重要的组成部分。

A strong faith component as well.

但我热爱创造。

But I love building.

我热爱科技。

I love technology.

我喜欢它的速度和创新。

I love the speed and the innovation.

它在我身上激发了很强的创造力。

They have a very much a creative side to me.

这种创造力在创业中蓬勃发展，尤其是科技创业，因为它的可能性无限广阔。

This creativity thrives with entrepreneurship, especially technology entrepreneurship because it's as big as you can imagine.

我喜欢创造。

But I love building.

我珍视人际关系。

I love relationships.

在这里，堪萨斯城，这很奏效。

That works here in Kansas City.

世界是流动的，所以我能够走遍全球，开展业务。

The world travels, so I've been able to travel and do business all over the world.

我知道你旅行的经历比我多得多。

I know you've traveled far more than I had even.

这只是顺其自然罢了。

It's just worked.

显然，我本可以搬到旧金山，走传统的路子，去纽约或奥斯汀。

Clearly, knew I could have moved to San Francisco and followed the traditional path and gone to New York or Austin.

这对我来说不够真实。

Didn't feel authentic to me.

感觉我是在追逐别人的梦想。

It felt like I was chasing someone else's dream.

如果我退一步，认真问自己最根本的问题：当我70岁或80岁时，我真正想要的是什么？

If I had to step back and really ask myself first principles, what do I really want when I'm 70 or 80?

那未必会在旧金山或纽约发生。

It wasn't necessarily gonna happen in San Francisco or New York.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

再给我们讲讲堪萨斯城正在发生的创业活动吧。

And then just give us a little color of some of the entrepreneurial activity that is happening in KC.

你参与的一些活动非常精彩，我总是听到关于它们的消息。

There's some great events that you're part of and things I'm always hearing about.

它在蓬勃发展吗？

Is it booming?

它正在接近目标吗？

Is it getting there?

它在扩张吗？

Is it expanding?

我从2003年就开始做这件事了，算起来已经有二十二年了。

I've been at this since 2003, so what, twenty two years now.

我有幸在很长一段时间里见证了这种势头以及人们所做的事情。

I have had the benefit of seeing, over a really long period of time, just the momentum and things that people are doing.

我想，我今天的回答可能和二十年前一样。

I would say my answer today is probably the same as it was twenty years ago.

还不错。

It's good.

我希望它能更好。

I wish it were better.

每年都是这样。

That is the case every single year.

有所改善，但我真的很希望它能更好。

It's better, but I sure wish it were better.

我们永远成不了奥斯汀。

We're never gonna be Austin.

人们说，我们应该成为下一个奥斯汀。

People say, hey, we should be the next Austin.

我说，不。

I'm like, no.

别这么想了。

Stop that.

我们会成为堪萨斯城，做我们擅长的事。

We're gonna be Kansas City and we're gonna do what we do well.

所以我们就这样做。

So we do that.

我们拥有一个优秀的生态系统。

We have a great ecosystem.

尽管我们身处这样的位置，却表现得远超我们的规模。

We punch well above our weight for where we're at.

我们已经实现了多次成功的退出。

We've had a number of great exits.

我们有一个非常乐于助人、积极参与的社区，因为我们知道必须如此。

We have a really helpful, engaged community because we know we have to be.

创业者或团体聚在一起。

Entrepreneurs or groups get together.

这并不是一种你死我活的竞争。

It's not kind of a knives out.

这是一种开放的态度。

It's a open hand.

嘿。

Hey.

我能怎么帮你？

How can I help?

你需要什么？

What do you need?

我怎样才能提供帮助？

How can I be helpful?

我们举办了许多优秀的活动。

We have a number of great events.

风险投资界非常出色。

The VC community is great.

我们拥有完整的资本链条，包括天使投资、种子轮和A轮、B轮投资，还有多家私募股权和家族办公室参与其中。

We've got the full capital stack of angels in pre seed and seed and a and b, and a number of private equities and family offices have gotten engaged.

所以过去二十年来它一直在持续增长，但我总希望我们能做得更好。

So it has continued to grow over twenty years, but I always wish we were better.

我听到有人这样形容：我们有一个巨大的飞轮，你需要推动这个飞轮。

I heard someone frame it like, we have this huge flywheel, and you push on the flywheel.

只要你持续施加同样的能量到飞轮上。

You push on it long enough, the same amount of energy into the flywheel.

飞轮就会越来越快、越来越快、越来越快，只要你不断输入能量。

The flywheel keeps going faster and faster and faster if you keep putting the energy into that.

所以我认为这个飞轮会继续加速，但我们总想让它更快。

And so I think the flywheel continues to go faster and faster, but we always wanna go faster.

太棒了。

Love it.

那你对未来的办公模式，以及远程办公与集中式团队的看法是什么？

And then what's your feeling on the future of work and work from home versus centralized teams?

你们是如何组建团队的？

How are you guys building your teams?

因为正如你提到的，你们将拥有全球化的布局。

Because as you mentioned, you're gonna have global presence.

但你们在团队建设方面是如何深思熟虑的呢？

But how are you being thoughtful about team building?

这正是我和我的团队一直在思考的问题。

It is a question I have with my team.

我也曾和这个领域的许多其他首席执行官和创业者探讨过这个问题。

I've had with lots of other CEOs and entrepreneurs in the space as well.

我之所以这么做，根本原因是我喜欢与人相处。

I fundamentally do this because I enjoy the people.

我喜欢建立人际关系。

I enjoy the relationships.

因此，无论是我自己亲身经历，还是与许多人交流后，我都发现完全远程办公很容易陷入过于事务性的状态。

And so I've both experienced myself and in talking to lot of others, fully remote is so easy to fall into very transactional.

并不总是如此，但确实很容易滑向那种状态。

It doesn't always, but it's easy to fall into that.

要避免日常工作的交易化，需要付出巨大的努力。

Takes an enormous amount of work not to make your daily work transactional.

但你也不可能总是亲自到场。

But you can't always be in person either.

考虑到人才和许多公司的全球性，这并不现实。

It's unrealistic with the talent and the global nature of so many of the companies.

所以我们每周有三天在办公室，另外两天比较灵活。

So what we do is three days a week in person, two days are kinda flexible.

有些人是两天或三天，当然，我们也有一些完全远程的员工。

Some people are two and three, and, of course, we do have a number of folks that are also remote.

那些人就是远程的。

So those are remote.

我们还会努力设计多种互动机会，以及大量的团队集体会议。

Again, we try to be thoughtful about lots of touch points, lots of group team meetings as well.

但有些创业者会说，既然我们有一些远程员工，那即使大家在同一座城市，也要让所有人都远程工作。

But some entrepreneurs are like, well, because we have some people remote, we want everybody to be remote even when they're in the same city.

我不认同这一点。

I don't agree with that.

让我们尽可能做到最好。

Let's optimize the best we can.

所以只要有可能，我们都希望聚在一起。

So wherever we can, we like to be together.

当一些员工远程工作时，我们希望他们能来堪萨斯城，尽管我们的部分工作具有国际性。

We like pulling people in when they are remote coming to Kansas City tough when some of our work is so international.

但这种情况正在不断变化。

But it's evolving.

我认为我们目前还没有答案。

I don't think we have an answer yet.

我认为这并不是完全远程的。

I don't think it's fully remote.

我认为这也不是完全面对面的。

I don't think it's fully in person.

这是一种介于两者之间的混合模式。

It's a hybrid combination between there.

我想知道你怎么看？

I'm curious what do you think?

我喜欢你们招聘菲律宾员工，然后让他们来堪萨斯城参加线下活动，说：欢迎来到美国。

I love the thought of you hiring someone in The Philippines and then them coming to an off-site in Kansas City and being like, welcome to America.

这太棒了。

It's so awesome.

我认为世界需要更多这样的做法。

I think the world needs more of that.

我认为每个团队都必须建立自己的文化和适合自己的方式，因为我确实看到两种方式都行得通。

I'm of the mindset that every team has to establish their own culture and what works for them because I've actually seen it work both ways.

所以我认为你不能对此过于教条。

So I don't think you can be so dogmatic about it.

我喜欢分布式团队，然后在线下活动中聚在一起的想法。

I like the idea of distributed teams that then come together in person at off sites.

而且我觉得这样做的成本和一整年都租专用办公室差不多。

And I think the cost is about the same as opposed to, like, having dedicated office throughout the year.

如果你能举办三四次高质量的异地团建，让所有人都聚在一起，放下手机，在那三天里全身心和同事们互动——就像我们在考夫曼的那次经历一样，我们之所以能变得这么亲近，就是因为我们一起去了日本那次疯狂又难忘的旅行。

If you do three or four really good off sites where everyone comes together and you're not on your phones and you're just, for those three days, really engaged with your colleagues, like our Kaufman experience, we became so close because we had those crazy trips to Japan and that magical trip.

所以我真的觉得，当大家一起吃饭、一起出门互动的时候，就能建立起深厚的联结，这段相处的时光非常珍贵。

So I do feel like you build something when you're having dinners and going out, and just that time is very special.

团队里必须要有维系人际关系的这部分内容。

You've gotta have a relational component.

当你感觉，嘿，

When you feel like, hey.

这就是我的团队。

This is my team.

我不想让他们失望，或者说我们同舟共济，无论是在低谷时期，当情况变得极其艰难，你正身处千里之外咬牙坚持的时候。

I don't wanna let them down, or we're in this together, both in the downtimes when it's super hard and you've got you're chewing glass at a thousand yards there.

你们取得了巨大的成功，每个人都兴奋不已。

You had a huge win, everyone's really excited.

如果你没有这种人际关系的纽带，几乎就不可能做到。

And if you don't have that relational component, you almost can't do it.

初创公司就像过山车一样。

Startups are too much of a roller coaster.

情绪的起伏太大了。

It's too emotional of highs and lows.

如果没有这种人际关系的韧性，我认为你无法坚持下去。

If you don't have that relational resilience, I don't think you can make it.

你在团队中会看重哪些品质？

What are some of the qualities that you look for in your team?

在招聘你的管理团队时，你会寻找某些特定的类型，而不是单纯看经验，而是那种难以言喻的特质吗？

As you're hiring your leadership team, are there certain archetypes you look for and not necessarily experiences, but that intangible?

我观察过销售人员，如果你不是真正外向且有竞争心，会很难成功。

What I've seen on salespeople, if you're not genuinely outgoing and competitive, it's gonna be hard.

你以前打过运动吗？

Did you play sports?

你很有竞争心吗？

Were you competitive?

你喜欢站在前面吗？

Do you like being out front?

你参加过学校的戏剧演出吗？

Were you in the school play?

有一些根本性的特质，特别是我喜欢问关于高中和大学的事情。

There are just some fundamental things, especially I like asking about high school and college.

你并不是在想着如何打造你的简历。

You're not thinking about you're building your resume.

所以如果你天生就是，是的，我是篮球队的队长，或者甚至可能是象棋社的。

So if you were just naturally, yeah, was the team captain on my basketball team, or even it could be chess club.

它可以是任何事情。

It could be anything.

但对于销售团队来说，那些既外向又有竞争心的人非常重要。

But those folks that are both outgoing and competitive on the sales team is super important.