Seeding Success: Inside Cendana Capital's Strategy for Nurturing Early-Stage VC Funds ft Kelli Fontaine

这大概是我第三十次做这种事，就是那种直播，其实也不算三十次，我觉得有十五次了吧……

This is probably the thirtieth time I I did this, like, live thing or, like, not 30, but, like, I think 15...

至少十五次我……

At least 15 times I...

嗯，可能还不到十五次。

Well, maybe not 15.

好吧。

Okay.

我做了十四次了，每次做直播的时候，我还是会紧张得要命，心跳加速得像心脏病发作一样。

14 times I did this, I feel like every time I go on live, I'm still, like, having a major heart attack.

但是

But

录播就比较容易。

It's easier to record.

对，完全同意。

And then Totally.

天哪。

Oh my god.

嗨，凯莉。

Hi, Kelli.

非常感谢你今天来参加节目。

Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

谢谢你邀请我，格蕾丝。

Thank you for having me, Grace.

谢谢你主动联系我。

Thank you for reaching out.

好的。

Okay.

那我给听众们读一下凯莉的介绍。

So I'm gonna read Kelli's bio for the audience.

凯莉是Cendana Capital的合伙人，她专注于投资全球早期风险投资基金。

So Kelli is a partner at Cendana Capital where she focuses on investing in early stage venture funds worldwide.

Cendana的投资组合包括许多知名基金，比如Forerunner、Uncork、Mucker Capital等等。

Cendana's portfolio, including notable funds such as Forerunner, Uncork, Mucker Capital, among many others.

再次欢迎你，Kelli，来到《与Grace一起创业》节目。

So again, Kelli, welcome to Venture with Grace.

谢谢。

Thank you.

好的。

Okay.

抱歉。

I'm sorry.

我确实把气氛搞得很尴尬，不过没关系，我们开始吧。你能多分享一下你进入Cendana的经历吗？从Trinity Capital到Cendana，再到你的整个职业生涯，是怎么走过来的？

I do make it so cringe, but anyway, so let's start with, can you share a little bit more of your journey into Cendana and then from Trinity Capital to Cendana to your overall career journey?

其实我最初来自田纳西州和科罗拉多州，所以当时我根本不知道什么是风险投资。

So I actually am originally from Tennessee and Colorado, so I did not know what venture was.

大学毕业后我直接搬到了旧金山，在传统金融领域找到了一份工作。

I moved to San Francisco right after college and I got a job in traditional finance.

我在资本集团和瑞信工作过。

I worked at Capital Group and Credit Suisse.

但在旧金山，我那些在初创公司工作的朋友都对自己的工作充满热情。

But being in San Francisco, my friends that worked in startups were very passionate about what they were doing.

我喜欢和他们聊他们的想法、聊创业的过程，然后发现自己真的对他们做的事情很感兴趣。

And I love talking to them about their ideas, the building, and realized I was really interested in working in what they were doing.

所以我自己也创办了一家初创公司。

So I founded a startup myself.

名字叫Dish It。

It was called Dish It.

做的是销售点数据分析。

It was point of sales analytics.

其实那时候Square也刚起步，所以我们算是做得有点早了。

It actually was around the same time that Square was starting, so it was a little early.

我当时专注的是餐饮行业。

I was focused on restaurants.

说实话，我不是个好的创始人。

Wasn't a great founder, to be honest.

我选错了联合创始人。

I didn't choose the right co founder.

很多地方都出了问题。

Lots of things went wrong.

但后来我加入了一家成功的初创公司，在那里我接触到了业务的方方面面，我觉得那可能是我最有影响力的工作之一。我在创业过程中学到了很多，作为初创公司的一员也学到了很多。而且，我和迈克尔·凯姆认识十年了，有机会加入他和格雷厄姆的团队。

But then I did join a startup that was successful and you know there I got to have put my hands on every part of the business and I think that was probably you know one of the most impactful jobs I had, again I learned a lot through the founding journey but also being a part of a startup And you know, I'd known Michael Kem for ten years personally and had the opportunity to join him and Graham.

我参加过Cendana的活动，这个生态圈非常协作和互助。参加他们的活动、年会、峰会、鸡尾酒会，你总能遇到一些有很棒想法并且愿意帮助你的人，这让人很振奋。所以有机会加入他们真的很令人兴奋。现在我已经在这里待了六年了。

I had gone to Cendana events and the ecosystem is just very collaborative and helpful, like going to the events, going to their annual meetings, the summits they put on, the cocktail parties, like you always came away with people that had great ideas wanting to help you, it just was invigorating and so it was really exciting to have the opportunity to join them And so I've been here now six years.

我在想……

I wonder...

那么，你加入Cendana的时候，迈克尔创办这家公司，我记得至少是十年前的事了。

So, like, when you joined Cendana, so Michael started this, I believe it was, like, at least ten years ago.

然后我在想，你可能是他们创办后几年加入的。

And then I wonder, like, you joined like, maybe couple years later after they started it.

你加入的时候，跟现在比起来感觉怎么样？

And when you joined, how was it like compared to now?

你们是最有名的投资基金管理人的人之一了。

You know, you guys are one of the most famous people who invest in fund managers.

所以我想知道这一切是怎么发生的。

So I wonder how how did that all happen.

然后你们就像一个独角兽基金，专门投资基金管理人。

And then you guys are kind of like a unicorn of, like, a fund, like, who invest in fund managers.

所以我在想，你们是怎么把这个基金规模做大的？

So I wonder, like, what what is that journey like to scale this fund?

我觉得这完全要归功于迈克尔和格雷厄姆。

So I think it's totally kudos to Michael and then Graham.

迈克尔其实在大约2010年就有了这个想法，那是他第一次……

So Michael started this actually, really the idea came around probably 2010, that was his first time on the...

他在旧金山员工退休系统董事会任职时，第一次做了有限合伙人，那时他看到了风险投资领域的变动，他看到了这一点，相信种子阶段会成为事实上的早期阶段，他判断对了，这就是Cendana的起源故事，也是我们至今坚持的方向。

He had been an LP for the first time in his career when he was on the board of San Francisco Employment Retirement System, and that's when he saw the dislocation happening in a venture, and seeing that and spotting that and believing that SEED was going to be de facto early stage, he was right, and so, you know, that's Cendana's origin story and it's where we stay true today.

我们在最早期阶段非常专注。

We're very disciplined on the earliest stages.

格雷厄姆几年后加入，他有一个观点，认为小基金在早期阶段表现更好。他之前在Horsley Bridge和Cambridge Associates工作过，自己也创过业，所以他主动联系了迈克尔，因为他相信这个观点。

Graham joined a few years later, he had a thesis about small funds outperforming early stage, he had been at Horsley Bridge and Cambridge Associates, had been in a startup himself, and so he actually proactively reached out to Michael because he believed in the thesis.

所以我加入的时候，更多是看中这个生态。

So when I joined, again, it was more about the ecosystem.

我当时了解得不够多。

I didn't know enough.

我从来没站在LP那一边。

I'd never been on the LP side of the table.

所以我并不是因为相信这个观点才加入的。

So I wasn't buying into the thesis.

我看中的是他们建立的生态和我要一起工作的团队。

I was buying into the ecosystem they had built and the team I was going to work with.

而且当时我们只有三个人。

And, you know, again, it was three of us.

我们现在已经有八个人了。

We're now eight people.

所以我们规模扩大了，我们正在顺利推进，我们刚刚关闭了募集。

So we scaled, we are on, we just closed.

嗯，去年我们完成了第五期基金的募集。

Well, last year we closed fund five.

我加入的时候我们正用第三期基金进行投资，我们推出了国际业务，我加入时就开始在国际上投资，我们还推出了一个nano产品，现在我们还有一个二手份额的合资项目，所以我们的产品和服务范围肯定扩大了，内部运营也通过数据得到了提升。

We were investing out of fund three when I joined, you know, we've launched international, we started investing internationally when I joined, we launched a nano product, we have a joint venture on a secondary on now, so we definitely scaled the product offering, scaled internal operations with data.

数据确实是我重点关注的领域之一。

That actually has been a big focus of mine was focusing on data.

我们确实有很好的数据访问渠道，我认为所有的捐赠基金、基金会、基金的基金，甚至风险投资基金，关键问题是如何最好地构建数据，如何保持对数据的掌握，我觉得我们确实利用数据来确保我们了解投资组合中哪些是有效的，哪些已经奏效，能够进行回测，能够发现趋势，能够基于我们投资组合中的数据来更好地评估向我们推销的基金。

So we have really great access to data and I think all endowments foundations, fund of funds, even venture funds, it's how do you best structure your data, how do you stay on top of it, and I think you know we really utilize the data to make sure that we're you know what is working in the portfolio, what has worked, being able to back test, being able to spot trends, being able to be a better underwriter of funds pitching us based on the data that we have in the portfolio.

所以我们尽量深入到被投公司的KPI、融资轮次、这些公司经历的稀释、融资路径可能的样子，来真正了解底层基金投资组合的情况。

So we try to get as granular as we can into the KPIs of the underlying companies, the fund rounds, the dilution those companies have taken, what the financing path could look like, to really understand what's going on in the underlying funds portfolios.

而且，当有人向我们推销时，我们能真正看到具体情况，并能对照我们自己投资组合中的成功和失败案例进行基准比较。

And again, having real visibility when people pitch us and being able to benchmark it against what's worked and what hasn't in our own portfolio.

所以我觉得，格雷姆和迈克尔之前已经把数据跟踪做得很好，但我把它扩展成了一个我们现在真正在用的数据库。

So I think, Graeme and Michael had done a great job of tracking data that they had, but I was able to scale it up into a more database that we really utilize now.

而且我觉得，从两个人变成三个人，情况显然很不一样，协作更多了，每个人也更主动地负责自己的部分。

And I think, obviously it's very different being two people to three people, much more collaborative, much more people just owning things.

不过我们还是喜欢像初创公司那样运作。

Still we still like to operate as a startup.

每个人都可以参与所有事情。

Everybody can have hands on everything.

虽然有具体分工，但我们希望每个人都参与所有事情，了解业务的方方面面。

There's ownership of specific things, but, you know, we want everybody hands on everything and know all parts of the business.

完全同意。

Totally.

我真的很喜欢这一点，你来了之后带来了你自己的价值，就是你创建了数据库，然后负责数据这块。

I really love that, like, you know, you came in and then you brought your own set of, like, value, which is, you know, you created the the database and then you're, like, taking care of the data part of things.

我想知道，这具体包括哪些工作？

And I wonder like, what does that entail?

比如说，我知道你的基金想跟所有主动联系的人见面，或者所有有基金的人见面，来了解市场上的所有情况，我觉得这非常聪明。

Like, let's say, I know that your fund is trying to meet with everybody who will reach out or like everybody who has a fund to see everything in the market, which I think that's super smart.

但是看到市场上这么多东西，真的很难，因为首先就是时间问题……

But seeing so many things in the market, it's like really hard because of like, number one is like the time comes...

时间投入，还有数据太多，没法都录入系统，然后说，嘿，嘿，咱们跟踪这个，比如五千英镑，就像迈克尔在其他采访里说的，现在人人都有个基金。

Time commitment as well as like, there's like, you know, too much data to be like input into a system to be like, hey, hey, let's track this, like, £5,000, like what, like Michael said in like other interviews, like everybody and their sister has a font nowadays.

那你用什么基准来判断，决定投资哪个基金呢？

Like, how do you kind of what are benchmarks that you use to track, like which fund that you decided to go invest?

嗯，我觉得我们肯定要记录跟谁谈过，笔记很重要，要清楚我们为什么放弃，如果某个项目成功了，你得能理解我们为什么放弃，或者你觉得它好在哪里，因为我们是在跟自己的LP们比较笔记，他们直接投资基金或者合作LP，所以我们分享这些信息，所以我们也会跟踪很多定性数据。

Well, so I think we definitely want to capture who we've talked to, the notes are really important to make sure like why we passed and, you know, if something worked, you want to be able to have understand why we passed or you know what we thought was great about it because we are comparing notes with our own LPs that are investing directly into funds or collaborative LPs and so we're sharing this information, so there's a lot of qualitative data that we track as well.

说实话，我不觉得跟踪什么有上限，应该是你能拿到的一切都要跟踪，这也是我们真正关注的重点，就是怎么扩展我们的数据团队和结构，因为拥有所有能掌握的知识很重要。

I honestly don't think that there's a limit on what you should track, it should be everything you can get your hands on and it's a real focus of ours on how we're going to scale our data team and structure because it is important that we have all of the knowledge that we can.

我觉得现在比以往任何时候都容易，这也是我们正在进行的项目。

I think it's easier than ever and that's a project we're undergoing right now.

数据湖，我们正在建立自己的数据湖，你可以用AI。

Data lakes is what we're currently setting up our own data lake, you can use AI.

所以我们现在的重点就是数据的可扩展性。

So we're really focusing on the scalability of the data now where we are.

我们有超过4000家底层公司，显然自己的投资是首要任务，比如跟踪公司和投资组合，但正如你所说，那些向我们推销的人，对吧，他们会进入系统，我们要确保知道我们和多少基金谈过，如果你问我们关于可持续基金或网络安全基金的情况，我们应该能说出我们谈过的那些，以及我们放弃的原因，对吧？

We have over 4,000 underlying companies, obviously our own investments priority number one, like tracking the companies, the portfolios, but as you said, the people who are pitching us, right, so they go into the system, we want to make sure we know how many funds we've talked to, if you ask us about sustainability funds or cyber focused funds, we should be able to name the ones that we've spoken to and what the reasons we passed, right?

我们应该知道我们在哪里看到趋势，我们需要做市场地图。

We should know where we're seeing trends of, we need to market map.

如果我们打算投资一个基金，我们需要确保我们已经和所有深度科技基金谈过，并且我们明白这确实是应对市场的最佳GP。

If we are going to invest in a fund, we we need to make sure we've talked to every deep tech fund out there and that we understand that this really is the best GP to be addressing the market.

所以我认为我们应该跟踪的内容没有限制，关键是要确保我们有正确的流程和团队来扩展这些数据。

So, you know, I think there's no limit on what we should be tracking and it's just making sure that we have the correct processes in place and team in place to be able to scale that data.

再说一次，这呈几何级数增长，因为跟踪我们自己的投资组合，对吧，4000家公司，希望他们在融资，这些公司里还有活动，基金在回来，但我们真的在努力做得更好，努力做好跟踪进来的介绍，把它们放入管道，并确保我们全程跟踪。

Again, it geometrically expands because tracking our own portfolio, right, 4,000 companies, hopefully they're raising rounds, activity is still happening in those companies, funds are coming back, but we're really trying to do a better job, trying to do a great job of tracking intros that come in, put them into a pipeline and make sure that we're tracking them all the way through.

好的。

Okay.

我要深入探讨一下这个数据库创建过程。

I'm gonna so I'm gonna dig deeper into this, like database creation process.

所以基本上，好的。

So basically, okay.

作为一个科技领域的投资者或者写手之类的。

As a tiny tech, enjoy investor or whatever, like writer.

所以基本上，当我关注某个要投资的类别或者什么的时候，更像是……

So basically, when I track certain category to invest in, or something, it's more of...

有点乱，但我们可以把它们分类，比如创始人经验、产品，还有他们所在的市场。

It's a little bit chaotic, but like, you know, we could have categorized them into like, you know, the founder experience, product, and like, you know, what market are they in?

这家公司有什么好的或不好的地方？

What what's like, you know, good or bad about this company?

然后理想的结果是什么样的？

And then, you know, what does that perfect outcome looks like?

或者最糟糕的结果是什么样的？

Or what is a terrible outcome look like?

这些就是我的心理基准。

So those are like my mental benchmark.

然后，我还有一个Excel表格，用来记录我见过的公司。

And then like, I have like a Excel checklist of the company that I have met.

不过我在想……

But I wonder...

另外，还有一些公司是我在晚餐聊天、看新闻或者其他场合听到的，感觉它们有很强的成功信号。

And then also there's like a group of company that I heard about it in like a dinner conversation or over the news or something that like have a strong signal of this is gonna succeed.

这些就是我的目标名单。

And then this is like my target list.

另外我收件箱里还有一大堆消息，都是朋友的朋友之类的人发来的，说他们要创业之类的各种事情。

And then there's like a bunch of things that are like in my inbox that are people sending it like friend of friends starting a company, blah blah blah.

所以我一直在想要怎么……

So I wonder like how...

作为有限合伙人，你是怎么寻找投资项目的？

Based on like the deal sourcing as a LP, how do you go about it?

你会不会主动联系那些老牌投资机构的人，跟他们说，要是哪天你打算离开现在的公司，记得跟我说……

Do you go reach out to the people at established firm to be like, hey, if one day you're leaving x y z, like, let's...

让我们投资你吧。

Let us invest in you.

或者你是这样做的：比如，这是我们目前的投资组合基金，然后他们介绍给了另一个基金。

Or do you go about it like, okay, so here's like our current portfolio funds, and then they made an intro to this other fund.

我应该看看，你是怎么进行项目源挖掘的？

Like, I should take a look at, like, how do you kind of do the deal sourcing?

然后你是怎么——对，我猜你的数据库里都按什么类别来分类？

And then how do you, yeah, I guess like what does your database look like in terms of the category of things that

我也想回应你刚才提到的关于你自己找项目的事，但我会先说说我们的项目源，然后我们再聊聊底层GP的项目源。

you I also want to address what you just talked about sourcing for yourself, but I'll talk about our sourcing and then we can talk about the sourcing of the underlying GPs.

我觉得我们的漏斗顶端，因为我们非常专注，只投种子轮和种子前轮，而且大家都知道我们的投资组合，所以我们主动出击的不多。

I think our top of funnel, because we're so disciplined and we focus on seed and pre seed only and people know the portfolio, we don't have a lot of outbound.

话虽如此，我们和很多合作的LP，也就是那些也投种子基金的捐赠基金，经常打电话交流项目流。

That being said, we do a lot of calls with collaborative LPs, meaning endowments that also invest in seed funds, compare deal flow.

现在我们的飞轮已经转起来了，对吧？

We have our flywheel spinning at this point, right?

所以我们投资了70支基金，还启动了Nano项目，就是那个两千万美元以下的基金，我们给小的基金做锚定投资，所以我们的GP会一起投，我们也会做创始人推荐电话，尽量每个GP都多做几次，这样你会不断听到各个基金的消息。

So we've invested in 70 funds and we started the Nano program which is that sub $20,000,000 fund where we anchor the smaller funds and so we have GPs that are co investing, we are on founder reference calls, We do as many founder reference calls as we can per GP and so you're hearing about funds consistently.

如果有人在多次电话里都提到同一个基金，我们就会留意，比如‘这个人是谁？’

If there's one that stands out of founders talking about it in multiple calls, then we may target like, hey, who is this person?

我们应该去认识一下。

We should get an intro.

但大部分情况下，因为我们在生态系统中的位置，我们的项目来源已经很充裕了。不过还是可以说，这些来源主要是创始人推荐电话、我们自己的GP——我们会问他们‘你的股东名单上还有谁？你想把谁带进这轮融资？’——还有我们和下游资本的关系，他们会告诉我们谁在种子轮值得关注，谁的项目质量高、公司好，所以我觉得我们项目来源不错。

But for the most part, I think because where we sit in the ecosystem, the top of funnel is pretty full, but I would say, you know, it does come from founder reference calls, our own GPs, we're talking to them, who else is on the cap table with you, who do you want to bring into the round, and we also have relationships with downstream capital, so who do they think is a signal at seed, who do they think has really strong deal flow or great companies in their portfolio, so I think we get it.

我们还有一个20人的顾问团，里面有成熟的VC、创业者、还有生态圈里的人，所以再次强调，我们的飞轮在转。我们有4000家公司，我们访问过很多这些公司的创始人，所以我觉得我们的项目来源飞轮已经转起来了。

We also have an advisory board of 20 people of established VCs, entrepreneurs, people in the ecosystem, so again, the flywheel is spinning, we have 4,000 companies, we've talked to a lot of the founders in those companies as references, so I think we have the flywheel spinning of where the deal flow comes in.

所以再次说，我们通过数据库来筛选，但冷联系是比较难的。

And so again, we're talking it through the database, you know, there is the cold outreach, that's harder.

另外，我们也有很多LP，我们没有特意去拉他们进来，但我觉得和合作的LP、我们自己的LP，我们一直保持联系。

Again, we have the number of LPs we have also, didn't pull them in, you know, I think collaborative LPs, our own LPs, we are consistently in communication with.

所以我觉得通过这些，我们能覆盖所有或大部分项目，我们对我们的项目来源很有信心。

And so, you know, I think through that we see everything or majority, we feel comfortable with our deal flow.

我觉得获得推荐很重要，最好是认识的人把我们介绍给你们，因为我们的生态圈这么大，你总能找到跟我们有关联的人，让他们推荐我们跟你聊聊。直接面对陌生求助确实很难，就像你说的，你自己邮箱里的陌生邮件都很难跟进。

I think it's important to get an introduction, a warm introduction to us because we do have such a big ecosystem, you should be able to find somebody that's connected to us where they can recommend that we speak to you, it's hard to deal with the cold outreach simply just because of, as you said, the cold outreach in your own inbox is hard to track.

关于你提到的项目来源和跟进，我觉得非常重要的一点是，基金经理一开始就应该把它当成一门生意来经营，不是只做一笔投资那么简单，而是要考虑以后怎么持续做下去。

The deal flow that you're talking about and tracking, I think it's very important that when GPs start, that they're treating this like a business, it's not you're just making one investment, like how does this actually work going forward?

就像我们想复盘自己的投资，理解当初为什么做那些决定，哪些做对了，同样重要的是搞清楚项目都是从哪来的，对吧？

And just like we want to back test our investments or understand why we made decisions, what worked, is understanding where deal flow is coming from, right?

你可能在某一条路上投入了很多精力，结果发现高质量项目其实更多来自另一个渠道，那你就应该把重心转到那边去。

You might put a lot of effort into one way and you actually realize a percentage, the highest percentage of quality deal flow is coming from a different avenue and so then you would want to lean in.

虽然有这种直觉，但真正能看到数据、看到关系图谱，明白项目来自哪里、该把精力花在哪儿，才能帮你持续找到好项目，也提高你自己挑选项目的能力。

You might quantitatively think that, but being able to see the numbers and being able to see the relationship mapping and where things are coming from and where to spend the effort is really important in understanding how you can continue to have quality sourcing and your own picking capabilities.

所以我觉得建立自己的内部数据库和流程非常重要，这样你可以管理好自己的投资组合，知道什么有效、什么无效，同时在投资时也能做好组合建模。

So I think it's really important setting up your own internal database and processes to be able to manage your own portfolio, understand what's working, what's not, modeling the portfolio as you invest as well.

完全同意。

Totally.

我好奇的是，你们投资了这么多优秀的基金管理人，那当他们来路演的时候，你觉得是什么特质让他们脱颖而出呢？

I wonder, you know, as, you know, like, you guys invest in so many amazing fund managers, and I wonder, like, you know, when they come into the pitch, right, like, so what are things that you feel like make them special?

不只是看他们的路演，我觉得，在整个尽职调查过程中，你们懂的。

Not just a pitch, but like, I guess, like, throughout your due diligence process, you know.

我记得你提到过，比如克里斯汀·格林来的时候，你们打电话给沃比·帕克的人，他们说她是他们凌晨五点第一个会打电话的人，或者遇到什么事的时候。

I think you mentioned about, like, Kristen Green, when she came in, you know, you guys called the people from Warby Parker, people are saying like, they, you know, she is the first person they would call at like 5AM, or like, if something happens.

所以基本上，她是一个非常支持创业者的投资人。

So basically, she's a really supportive, like, basically, investor to the startups.

所以这就是人们做尽职调查、跟创业公司核实情况的方式。

So that's like how people do due diligence, do checking with the startups.

我想知道，当你们在寻找新一代的克里斯汀·格林，在当前这个生态圈里，他们有什么共同点……

I wonder, like, when you're looking at the new round of the new Christine Green's, like, in the current ecosystem, what are the common things that they have...

他们分享什么？

They're sharing?

还有，如果从小投资者的角度看，很多人的思考框架是，我们能和红杉这样的机构一起投资吗？

And then also, you know, as, you know, if we're looking at from a small investor perspective, like, you know, a lot of people's thinking framework is, can we co invest with, you know, the Sequoia of the world?

比如……

Like...

或者基本上，你有点像在追踪你所在领域里顶尖的当前投资者是谁。

Or like, basically, you kind of like you kind of like track who is the top current investors in your space.

然后你有点像在弄清楚他们的投资模式是什么。

And then you kind of like figure out what's their investing pattern.

我在想，在LP领域有没有类似的做法，去追踪顶尖的基金经理，不管我们是否投资他们。

And I wonder, is there an equivalent in the LP space to track, like, you know, who is the top fund managers regardless if we invest in them or not.

那个生态系统是什么样的？

And what does that like ecosystem look like?

然后……

And then...

抱歉。

So I'm sorry.

我的问题就是……

Like, my question is so like...

不。

No.

没有可比性。

Have no comparison.

对，没关系，那我们拆开来说，一是我们觉得什么特别，二是你怎么追踪外部生态。

Yeah, it's okay, so breaking it down, it's what we think is special and then how do you track the outside ecosystem.

我们先从第二部分开始。

Let's start with the second part.

外部生态，也就是我们没有投资的那些，追踪起来要难得多，除非我们觉得他们有意思，会继续做更新电话。

The outside ecosystem of where we're non invested is much more difficult to track other than if we think they're interesting we'll continue doing update calls.

我们95%的投资都投在了一期或二期基金，所以三期基金我们很难进入，但我们还是会和那些我们认为有意思的保持联系，所以我们会收到更新，知道他们的投资组合进展如何，但没有一个很好的——这就是为什么我们没有花太多时间整合外部第三方数据源，因为存在确认偏差，谁在提供数据，哪个数据是对的，我就是不信任，所以还是回到追踪、和LP交流、了解他们投资组合里什么有效，以及理解什么有效果、你觉得为什么有效果。

95% of our investments have been to fund one or two, so it would be more likely it would be hard for us to enter at a fund three, but we still stay in contact with ones that we think are interesting, so we do get updates and we know how their portfolios are progressing, but there isn't a great, you know, that's why we haven't spent, I did not spend a ton of time integrating any external third party data sources just because it's, you know, there's confirmation bias, who's actually giving the data, what data is correct, I just don't trust it and so, you know, it goes back to tracking, talking to LPs, knowing what's working in their portfolio and understanding what's worked and what you think why.

我们自己的投资组合里有足够的数据点，可以大致判断出我们认为的趋势。

We have enough data points in our own portfolio to kind of suss out what we think are trends.

趋势是小型基金表现更好，这是Graham和Michael的论点，Michael的论点是早期、小型基金、正确的投资组合构建，我不得不接受，但这确实是我们数据所显示的，一期到三期基金和小型基金在我们的数据集和我们能拿到的数据中表现更好。

You know, the trends are that smaller funds outperform, which was Graham and Michael's, Michael's thesis was early stage in small funds, correct portfolio construction, I had to buy into it, but it definitely is something that our data shows, funds one through three and small funds outperform in our datasets and what we can get our hands on.

这是我们自己看数据、看我们所看到的，试图找出让新人特别的特征。

That's our own looking at the data and what we see, trying to find the characteristics of what makes someone new special.

迈克尔投第一期基金的时候我还没加入，但就我自己的经历来说，我在加入Cendana之前，在一家风投债务公司短暂工作过，我当时还去拜访过她，对吧？

I wasn't around yet when Michael made the investment to and fund one, but I think, you know, my own experience, I did a brief stint at a venture debt firm right before joining Cendana, and I called on her, right?

我当时在找项目机会，就去拜访了她，她也安排了见面。

I was trying to find deal flow and I called on her and she took a meeting with me.

我觉得有些人就是能让你感觉被倾听，他们什么会议都参加，很有存在感，就是有一种特别的魅力和气质。我现在看我们很多GP，他们也有这种特质，他们不是单向地跟你说话，而是真正投入到对话中，在学习和吸收，对吧？

And I think, there's something about the way certain people make you feel heard, they take every meeting, they have a presence, there's just a certain gravitas and specialness to a person And I look at many of our GPs today and they have that same characteristic, they're not talking at you, they're really brought into the conversation, they're learning, right?

他们很渴望从你身上学到东西，充满好奇心。

They're eager to learn from you and curious.

所以他们什么会议都参加，这本身就是一种超能力，一种特别之处。我一直在想，是不是因为他们更有条理，比我能做到的有条理得多？还是别的什么？

And so they take every meeting, there's a superpower to them, there's a special factor, you know, I've always thought like is it organization that they're just more organized than I could ever be, like what about it?

我觉得每个人都不一样。

And I think it's different for every person.

每个人都有自己的优势，那么什么样的特殊优势能让他们脱颖而出或者取得巨大成功呢？

Think, you know, people have different strengths and so like what is that special strength that could lead to outperformance or making them very successful?

现在有一位管理人让我印象很深，我们每个月都会和每位管理人开一次电话会议。

Know, one manager that stands out to me right now, we do monthly calls with each of our managers.

这是为了帮助他们自己建设公司、管理自己的投资组合，同时让我们了解情况，更好地掌握自己的投资。

This is to help them with their own building of the firm, their own portfolio, and for us to have insights into what's going on and to better know our own investments.

通过这个过程，我们有一位管理人，他管理的是一个微型基金，那是他的第一支机构基金，我们参与了，他做了各种不同的项目寻找实验，对吧？

Through that, we have one manager, it's a nano fund and so it's his first institutional fund that we were, and he ran all these different experiments of sourcing, right?

听到他接受反馈，然后实施，并且很用心，他们不是想，不是那种‘别人怎么找项目，我就怎么做，但我要做得稍微好一点’的心态。

And hearing him take the feedback and then implementing it and being thoughtful, they're not thinking, they're not, okay, this is how people source and I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna do it incrementally better.

他们就是做事方式不同，对吧？

They're just doing things differently, right?

他们有自己的投资理念，或者运营基金的方式，或者对投资方向的看法，或者对已投公司的看法。

They have a thesis or a way of operating the fund or a thesis on where they're going to invest or companies that they've invested in.

就是不一样。

That's just different.

看起来不像我们见过的每个基金、每个风投的共识。

It looks not like the consensus of every VC of every fund we see.

他们作为个人、他们的网络、他们的投资理念，或者他们投资的方式，都有一些不同之处。

There's something different about them as a person, their network, their thesis, or the way they're going about investing.

这不是别人都在做的事，但我们认为它会越来越好。

It's not what everybody else is doing, but we think it's gonna be incrementally better.

大多数时候，这种做法非常不同。

Most of the time it's very different.

完全同意。

Totally.

好的。

Okay.

我想向观众打个招呼。

I wanna say hi to the audience.

查尔斯和萨凡纳，非常感谢你们的到来。

Charles and Savannah, thank you so much for coming.

我觉得你刚才提到了一个很棒的点。

So I think you mentioned, like, something really great.

这是你的……

It's, you know, one of your...

你投资的那个基金管理团队，他们真的很擅长测试各种东西，然后听取你们的反馈。

The fund that fund management that you invested in, they're really good at like, they're really good at like testing things out, and then like hearing feedback from you guys.

我想知道，当你们看那些没什么业绩记录的人时，典型的业绩记录是什么样的？

And I wonder, you know, when you're looking at people without much track record, you know, like, does a typical track record look like?

嗨，科林。

Hi, Colin.

那么，最成功的基金经理，他们的典型业绩记录是什么样的？

So what does a typical track record look like when it comes to, like, the most successful fund managers?

比如说，他们是有七个联合投资，还是说……

Like, do they have, let's say, seven syndicates or like, you know, coming...

比如他们是从红杉出来的，或者基本上就是超级成功的天使投资人，或者刚毕业，但人脉很广。

Like, they're sculling for Sequoia or like, you know, basically, they're like a super successful angel or like, just out of school, like, and then they just have a really good, like, network.

最成功的经理人通常有什么共同背景？

What is, like, the common background of the most successful manager look like?

还有，你觉得为什么这些背景能让他们成功？

And then also, why do you think that makes them successful?

嗯，我们最早期的基金，滚动基金那时候还没有，我们不会投资初次投资的人，所以总得有某种业绩记录。他们得先完成一些投资，我是说不止几次，我们也做过一些轻量级的业绩记录，但那真的是例外。而且很多时候投资组合还不够成熟，比如他们有大额的DPI，我们知道他们的回报会持续。所以当我看的时候，什么造就了成功的业绩记录，看起来像什么样，有没有共同点，其实真没有。

Well, our oldest funds, rolling funds were not around by then, we won't invest in a first time investor, so there is some type of track record there, so they've been able to make a few investments, I mean more than a few, we've done a few light track records but that's really an exception, but a lot of the times the portfolios aren't mature enough yet to like they have this great DPI and we know that they're gonna, you know, be persistent of returns, So, you know, when I look at it, what makes the successful track records, what does it look like, there's a common denominator, it really isn't.

我确实认为你需要证明你的人际网络能带来项目源，对吧，这就是为什么我们现在可以争论基金一到三的表现为什么更好。

I do think you need to prove that your network is going to give you the deal flow, right, like why, you know, this is why we think, you know, we can debate right now about why funds one through three outperform.

我觉得，在内部，显然基金规模最小是最容易的，但我认为人脉中最容易摘到的果子是，那些你网络中的媒体人，以及——

I think, internally obviously fund size is smallest, that's the easiest, but I think there's something about the lowest hanging fruit of the network, it's the media people in your network and

我

I

觉得，Reid Hoffman说过，有一种普遍想法是重要的不是你知道什么，而是你认识谁，但我觉得Reid Hoffman说过，重要的不是你认识谁，而是谁信任你所知道的。所以我觉得那很重要，对吧，你可能来自Stripe，但你在Stripe和谁合作过？

think there's Reid Hoffman that said, I mean there's the common thought it's not what you know, it's who you know, but I think there's Reid Hoffman that said it's not who you know, it's who trusts what you know and so I think that's important, right, like you might have come from Stripe, but who did you work with at Stripe?

谁还想再跟你合作？

Who's going to want to work with you again?

谁会打那个电话，对吧？

Who's going to be the call, right?

所以我觉得要挖得比“你有渠道”更深一层。

So I think it's digging a level deeper than just okay, you have access.

我们希望看到过往记录，了解你在哪里认识他们的思路，所以网络关系以及你对投资的想法，比如你的投资论点是什么？

Think, you know, we want a track record to understand your thought process of where you met them, so network and really your thinking on like making the investment, like what was your thesis?

这样我们就能理解你的选人标准和思维方式。

And so we can understand your picking and how you think.

很多时候，当我们投资新兴管理人时，他们还没有退出案例。

There's not gonna be exits a lot of the time by the time we're investing in emerging manager.

说实话，他们很少有这么长的业绩记录，这种情况更少见。

It's very rare that they have that length of a track record to be honest, that's more rare.

所以对我们来说，业绩记录是为了展示网络、选人能力和赢的结果，即使只是小额天使投资，你仍然要说明为什么你被选中？

So the track record for us is to show, you know, the network and the picking and the winning, even if it's a small angel check, like you still why were you chosen?

这样我们就可以和创始人聊这些。

And so we can talk to the founders about that.

完全同意。

Totally.

好的。

Okay.

观众里有一位叫科林的，他问你怎么定义轻量级的业绩记录？

So one of the audience, Colin, is asking what would you define as a light track record?

我自己的问题待会儿再问，要不我们先回答这个问题吧。

I will go into my question later, maybe we'll go for this question first.

对，轻量级的业绩记录，我觉得至少得有几年时间，不能只是说我六个月前或者去年才开始投资。至少得有一段时间看看那些公司的发展情况。我觉得如果投资少于10个，那还得继续积累。

Yeah, light track record, I mean, I think, you know, I would say you need to have a few years, that's not just oh I started investing six months ago or in the last year, I think it needs to be that at least you've had some time to see like what the progress of those companies have been and I would say you know anything under 10 would be, you know, you need to build further on it.

对，所以我觉得你得给自己时间，对吧？不能说我做了六个月就成专家了。你得能接受反馈，然后不断调整，想想你过去六个月的投资和最初的投资有什么不同，或者你的业绩记录里从第一次投资到现在是怎么演变的。

Yeah, so I think there needs to be, you know, you need to give yourself time, right, you're not oh I did something for six months and I'm an expert now, you need to be able to take that feedback and iterate on why the investments you made in the last six months differ or where did you go from the first investments you made in your track record.

我很好奇，你刚才提到三个方面，对吧？

I wonder, so like you talk about three things, right?

就是作为基金管理人，你的网络、你的选股能力，还有你赢的能力，对吧？

Like there is your network, you're picking and you're winning ability as a fund manager, right?

那我们就聊聊网络吧。

Like, let's talk about network.

我觉得我好像住在……

I feel like I live in...

我们俩都住在硅谷，这里的生态圈特别成熟，街上随便都能碰到TL fellow或者YC的创始人。

Well, we both live in Silicon Valley, as of, the ecosystem is like so robust, like, so many people have encountered, you know, a TL fellow or like YC founder down the street.

我就好奇，你怎么定义一个好的网络？

And like, I wonder how do you define a good network?

你之前提到过，比如说最早期的创始人，或者在你的……

And you mentioned about like, let's say the earliest draft founders or like in your...

在另一个采访里，你提到过，比如说投资了Uber的三个创始人，或者三个早期员工之类的。

Like in the other interview you mentioned about like the, let's say like invest, like people invest in like three Uber founder, three like Uber early employees or whatever.

所以我就觉得，网络这个东西真的很难定义。

So wonder like, I feel like the network is really hard to define.

而且，如果你只是投了Uber早期的创始人，或者你自己是Uber早期的创始人，然后去投其他Uber早期的创始人，那又怎么样呢？

And then it's like, you know, if you're just the early Uber founders, or like if you just invest in the early Uber founders or like you are early Uber mover founder who is investing other early Uber founders or whatever.

我觉得难就难在，你没有足够的时间去经营这个现有的网络。

I feel like it's hard because you don't really have the longevity to go about this existing network.

比如说，如果你在某个时间点来找我们，我觉得除非你特别擅长社交，否则你得不断重新融入这个生态圈。

So, you know, for example, like, let's say if you came to us at a certain time period, I feel like unless you are super great at networking all the time, you're constantly reinventing yourself into the ecosystem.

我觉得你没法一直靠那帮人，因为那些人可能已经套现离场了，或者你的朋友，投资他们已经太晚了，或者你已经投过他们了。

I don't think you can keep going on with that group, because that group of people may already kind of like having some sort of exit, or like, you know, your friends, it's too late to invest in them, or like, you know, you already invest in them.

就是说，光靠你现有的关系网来运营一只基金，挺难的。

Like, it's hard to like, for you to run a fund based on like your existing network.

所以我想问，根据你对现在这些基金管理人的观察，你怎么定义那些关系网好的人？

And I wonder, based on your observation of the current fund managers, how how do you define, like, people that with a good network?

我会从选人和赢的角度来说。

I'll I'll go into picking and winning.

好，那我给你举个背景调查电话的例子。

Well, so let me give you a example from a reference call.

我们给Moxie的Katie Stanton做过一次背景调查，当我们跟一家公司的创始人聊的时候，他说你永远遇不到像她那样有人脉的人，他还举了具体例子，他想让乔·拜登参加全国祈祷日，她直接联系到了拜登的办公室，他想要梵蒂冈那边办点事，她也帮他联系上了梵蒂冈。

We did a call on Katie Stanton at Moxie and when we talked to the founder of a company, he said, you know, you'll never meet anybody with a network like her and he gave specific examples, you know, he wanted Joe Biden to participate in National Day of Prayer, she got Joe Biden's office on the phone, she wanted the Vatican for something and she got the Vatican on the phone for him.

所以我觉得，你跟创始人聊的时候就会发现，她的关系网确实在帮他们，而且那个创始人会推荐他所有的朋友去跟Katie聊，因为她给公司带来了实实在在的价值。

So I think there's just like you can talk to founders and realize like okay their network is helping the founders and that founder will recommend all of his friends talk to Katie because of the value she's added to the company.

所以我觉得，你可能会说，对，他们不再是Uber那批创始人了，对吧，那些人要么已经过气了，要么你已经投过了，这就回到我们最开始说的，为什么第一到第三期基金会表现更好，对吧，就是你关系网里最容易摘的果子，这些人是你直接共事过的，正好是你开始做基金的时候，他们开始创业，这就是你关系网里最容易摘的果子，所以如果你要建立一个品牌，你必须不断迭代，怎么让这个飞轮转起来，关键就是给别人创造价值，让他们愿意推荐你，所以就是利用你给公司带来的价值，对吧？

So I think, you know, you talk about like, okay well yeah they're not going to be the founders out of Uber anymore, right, all those people have aged out or, you know you've already invested in them and that goes back to our first part of like why funds one through three outperform, right, it's the low hanging fruit of your network, these are people you work directly with, it's your time to start a fund, it's their time to start a company, it's the low hanging fruit of your network and so you do have to iterate if you're going to create a brand, how do you get that flywheel spinning and it's really adding value to people where they're going to recommend that you work with them and so it's leveraging like what is the value you're bringing to companies, right?

我们有一位经理专注于市场推广，我们也有前创始人，每个人都有各自的专长，如果这些专长真的能为公司带来价值，如果你在帮忙，我们有一位经理专注于招聘，如果你在帮他们招人，这对早期创业公司来说是最重要也最难的事情之一，你帮他们招到人，帮他们带来收入，这些都是他们会向创始人朋友推荐你的理由，所以最终作为风投，你得到的最好的推荐来自其他创始人。

We have one manager who focuses on go to market, we have former founders, like everybody has a, you know, whatever your skill set is, if it really adds value to companies, if you're helping, we have one manager who focuses on hiring, if you're placing employees, which is like one of the most important and hardest things to do for early stage startups, you're getting them hires, you're getting them revenue, like these are things where they're going to recommend you to their founder friends, and so eventually the best referrals you'll get as a VC are from other founders.

所以，为你合作过的创始人创造价值，或者为那些正在创业的人创造价值，即使你没有投资他们，这也是你获得推荐的最佳方式。

And so adding the value to the founders you have worked with or adding value to people who are starting companies even if you didn't invest in them, that's the best way you can get referrals.

所以，是其他股东会推荐你，比如，嘿，想把你拉进来，因为你为公司带来了很多价值，想再和你合作，这是我另一个想做的项目。

And so it's other people on the cap table that are going to recommend like, hey, want to bring you in because you added so much value to the company, want to work with you again, this is another company I want to work on.

所以我觉得，这不仅仅是人脉的问题，重要的不是你认识谁，而是谁信任你所知道的，所以这就是你要带来的价值。

So I think it's really that as much as it's a network, it's like the it's not who you know, it's who trusts what you know and so it's the value of that you're going to bring.

完全同意。

Totally.

我特别想深入聊聊她是怎么建立人脉，才能让白宫办公室立刻接电话的。

I would totally wanted to go into how does she build the network to get, like, know, to open the office on the phone right away.

但是，是的，我想知道，就……

But, yeah, I wonder, like, in terms of...

你刚才提到，她得到了创始人的大力推荐。

You you just mentioned about, like, you know, she's getting a great reference from the founders.

而且在创始人圈子里，我听说风投们发现，最好的创始人未必是那些从过去老板那里得到好评的人。

And, like, you know, in the founder space, I heard VCs were seeing, like, you know, the best founders are not necessarily the people who are got, like, a positive feedback from their past, like, boss or something.

因为有些人可能是个很糟糕的员工，但却是很棒的创始人。

Because, you know, some people who may make a really terrible employee, but amazing founder.

我就想，这个道理是不是也适用于那些前台经理呢？

Like, I wonder, does that apply to the font managers?

我们确实听过负面的推荐。

I mean, we've heard negative references before.

我觉得这要看负面推荐是来自谁。

I I think it depends where we're getting the negative reference from.

再说，我们聊到……

Again, we talk...

如果你看我们的推荐备忘录，每份至少包含四十多个推荐电话，所以难免会听到一些负面的东西。我们总是会问建设性的反馈，想了解他们认为哪些方面需要改进，才能更好地扩展和做好工作。

Would say if you look at our reference memos, there's 40 plus reference calls at minimum on each of those and so you're bound to hear some negative things, we always ask for constructive feedback to understand where they think they would need to work on to be able to scale and do their job best.

我觉得你能看出来，对吧，就像我能看出一个创始人虽然没说任何负面的话，但你也给不出具体的例子，说明那个风投到底怎么帮了你。

I think you can read through, right, just like I can read through a founder not saying anything negative, but it's not, you can't give me tangible examples of how that VC has actually helped you.

对，他们接电话，人也不错，但如果你说不出他们为公司做过什么有意义的事，那他们虽然靠谱，但不会是你第一个推荐给朋友的人。

Yeah, they answer the phone, they're great, but if there's nothing you can tell me that they've actually done that's been meaningful to your company, then you know, they're solid, but they're not going to be the absolute first call that you tell your friends to make.

所以我觉得关键不在于负面评价，而在于那些中性的评价。如果你打的推荐电话够多，就能分辨出哪些创始人会拍着桌子说，这就是我想再次合作的人，这就是我要推荐给朋友的人。

And so I think it's almost not even the negative, it's the neutral that you have to look for and if you do enough reference calls, can really pick out which ones the founders are like pounding the table, like this is the person I wanna work with again, and this is the person that I'm gonna send my friends to.

但如果创始人觉得，很多人可能在很早期就投资了他们，而你可能是最小的那张支票呢？

But what if like the founders are like, since like, if a lot of people may be investing in the founder at a really early stage, and then you may be the smallest check-in.

我知道克里斯汀·格林对帕克就是一笔小投资。

I know like, you know, Christine Green was a small check-in to Parker.

她做出了巨大的贡献，等等。

She made a huge contribution, all that.

但当你投的钱很少时，如果创始人已经从一些顶级基金融到资，他们可能不会太把你当回事。

But, you know, when you put a tiny check-in, the founder may not really take you seriously if they already raised from, you know, some top funds or whatever.

比如，如果有人给创始人打电话问，XYZ有没有带来什么价值？

Like when, like, you know, obviously if, like, someone giving the founder a call, to be like, hey, did XYZ add any value?

创始人可能会说，他们不会说坏话，因为他们会说，哦，对，某某很棒。

Like the founder will be like, they wouldn't say bad things because of like, they would be like, oh yeah, like blah is great.

但我觉得，当你的投资记录那么少的时候，可能很难去……

But like, I feel like it's like when the track is so small, it may be tough to

续……

be...

嗯，我觉得这就是如果你想以风投为职业，而不是只做天使投资人的区别。你得开始通过建立自己的名声、通过增加价值来积累投资记录，对吧？所以如果你要去做天使投资，他们把你放在股东名单上是因为你的名字、你的人脉这些，有时候能成，大多数时候不成。当你和他们聊的时候，他们就会说，哦，我投的那50个天使里，只有一两个真的带来了价值，所以我们找的就是那一两个能创造价值的，对吧？

Well, think that's the difference if you want to make venture a career versus remaining an angel investor, like, you have to start building that track record by making a name for yourself, by adding value, right, so like if you're you're going to angel invest, they want you on the cap table for your name, your network, whatever, sometimes it works out, most of the time it doesn't when you talk to them, there's like oh there's one or two of the 50 angels I took that actually added value and so we're looking for those one or two that added value, right?

我的意思是，我们不是在找大多数人，但就像撒网式投资一样。我们对投资组合的构建有自己的论点，就是高信念投资者。我们希望那些能获得足够的所有权，跟基金规模成比例，这样如果公司成为黑马，对我们的基金来说就会很有意义。所以如果你要成为一个能被再次邀请、被推荐、能获得更多公司所有权的天使，你就必须创造价值。他们不会因为好心就让你加入，真的必须是对企业最好的。所以如果你想建立风投的投资记录，真的就像如果你要下注这家公司，你是怎么帮助它的，你知道，这必须是一个优先事项。因为我们之前谈到过寻找项目、选择项目、赢得项目，但另一个重要的部分就是支持，对吧。而且这就是你如何回到寻找项目上，如果创始人们会推荐你，或者其他风投会推荐你，而这是获得交易流最好的两种方式，那你就必须创造价值。当我们跟纳米基金谈的时候，很多时候他们的支票是天使级别的，他们只有500万美元的基金，但他们想要达到2000万，然后他们的支票金额远远超出了他们的规模，他们极其有价值。通常有一个领投方，但领投方可能都没做那么多，机构种子基金或者机构多阶段基金，都没有这个天使为我和公司的成功所做的事情多，公司能有今天，很多功劳在于这个天使。

I mean we're looking for not, you know, I don't want use the majority of term but like spray and pray, we have a thesis on portfolio construction which is high conviction investors, we want people who can get enough ownership to fund size ratio where it's going to be meaningful to the fund if it is an outlier company and so if you're going to be able to be an angel that's invited back to be recommended, to be allowed to get more ownership of a company, you have to add value, It just they're not going to do it out of the kindness of their heart, it really has to be what's best for the business, and so, you know, if you want to set up a venture track record, it really is like if this is your bet, like how can you help this company and you know, it just has to be a priority because that's, you know, we talked about sourcing, picking, winning, but the other huge part is supporting, right, and that's how you're going to, going back to the sourcing, if founders are going to recommend you or other VCs are going to recommend you, which are the two best ways of deal flow, then you have to add value and when we talk to the nano when we're referencing nano funds, lot of times they're angel checks where they had a $5,000,000 fund, they're wanting to reach 20 and they punched above their weight, well above their weight on their check size, that they're extremely valuable, know there's usually a lead and it's like the lead didn't even do as much, the institutional seed fund or the institutional multi stage fund didn't do as much as this angel did for me and for the success and where the company is today.

所以这就是我们想要的，当我们在跟创始人和做背景调查的时候，我们想要的是关于风投的这类信息。

And so that's what we're looking for, that type of information on the VCs when we're talking to founders and referencing.

我想聊聊那些不是特别细分的领域。

I want to get into like the niche, or non niche part.

所以，我知道你们投资了很多基金，这些基金专注于很多不同的行业，每个投资组合经理、每个基金经理都有自己的专长和优势。

So, I know you guys invest in so many funds that are focusing on so many different sectors, and each portfolio manager, each fund manager have their own specialties and strengths.

当人们自己建立投资组合的时候，比如做天使投资，或者自己搞个小投资组合，我觉得除非你是在某个行业里很有经验的经营者，否则你更容易选择一个细分领域。

You know, when people like building up a portfolio, they're like, angel investing, or like, putting up like a small portfolio on their own, I feel like unless you have, you're like a seasoned operator in x y z category, it's easier for you to pick a niche.

你对选择细分领域有什么建议？

What's your suggestion on picking a niche?

因为我觉得现在，比如你投资AI的话，有七千个投资者在这个领域跟你竞争，我就想知道，作为基金，你会怎么去打造自己的细分领域？

Because I think nowadays, like, you can see it like, if you're investing in AI, there's like, you know, 7,000 investor who are in this area to compete with you, and I wonder, like, how would you go about creating your own niche as a fund?

我觉得回到那个点，不要做别人都在做的事，而是做得更好一点。这必须百分之百符合你自己的特点、你的背景、你的优势。所以有时候，那就是一个特定领域的基金，对吧？就像你提到的AI，你得是技术出身，或者有相关背景才行。所以我觉得，如果是特定领域的基金，我们得认真想想，为什么你能在这个领域赢过那些通才型的投资者。

I think going back to don't do what everybody else is doing doing it incrementally better, I it has to be 100% authentic to who you are, what your background is, what your strengths are, so sometimes that is a sector specific fund, right, as you mentioned AI, you know, you have to be a technical person or you have to have a background there for it to be applicable, and so I think if it's sector specific, we have to really think about why you are going to win over a generalist in a sector.

是不是因为公司必须卖给医疗科技领域的医院系统，而你跟支付方有联系？必须有一个理由让你在这个领域胜出。

Is it because the companies have to sell into certain, you know, in health tech hospital systems and you have connectivity to the payers and, you know, like it has to be a reason that you're going to win in that sector.

我们有供应链物流基金，就是要非常了解那个行业、买家以及市场进入策略，对吧？

We have supply chain logistics funds and, you know, it's understanding that sector and the buyers and the go to market really well, right?

所以我觉得，你不能仅仅因为某个领域是一个组织原则，或者那是你的背景，就去做。关键是要想清楚，为什么这能让你在创始人面前有赢的资格。

And so I think you can't just be a sector because it's an organizing principle and that's your background, it really has to be why that gives you a right to win with founders.

然后，从技能组合的角度来看，我觉得那是另一种方式，对吧？

And then as far as skill sets, do think that's another way, right?

我们有一个非常擅长讲故事的基金经理。

We have a manager that's great at storytelling.

讲故事能力非常重要，但技术出身的创始人往往不擅长讲故事，对吧？

Storytelling is a huge, you know, technical founders aren't always the best storytellers, right?

所以他们在创业的每个环节——面向客户销售、筹集资金——都需要帮助，而这些本质上都是有效讲述自己的故事。

And so they do need help every part of, you know, starting a business, selling to customers, raising money, it's all telling your story effectively.

市场推广，帮公司做市场推广，如果他们之前没做过，就帮他们理解打法。所以我觉得你可以有一个自己特别擅长的特定技能，让你在某个领域或某项技能上有优势，这取决于你想成为什么样的基金，你的竞争优势在哪里，你的价值在哪里。

Go to market, helping companies with go to market and understanding the playbook if they've never done that before, so I think you could have a specific skill set that you're really leaning into that allows you, you know, sector specific, skill specific, it depends on what you're trying to be, your competitive edge and where your value is.

我觉得确实有一些非常细分的领域，我们就是不会投。关于综合型基金还是专业领域基金更好的争论很多，内部有争论，和我们的有限合伙人也有争论，我们经常讨论这个。

I do think there's some very niche sectors and we're just not going to invest in it, you know, there's a lot of debate as generalists better than sectors and there's debate internally about it, there's debate with our own LPs, you know, we talk about it a lot.

我们的综合型基金表现不错，专业领域基金也表现不错，但也不能过于细分，否则会大大减少交易机会，对吧？因为如果你真的做得很专，首先可投的公司范围就很小，而且你必须要有获胜的理由。它能给你获胜的理由，因为你是那个领域的专家，那个领域和你的经验之间有关联，让你有优势。如果是个技术领域，你自己也得懂技术，这样才能做好尽职调查，用他们的语言跟创始人交流。所以归根结底，它必须与个人真实背景相符，发挥他们的技能或领域经验。完全同意。

Our generalist funds have performed well, right, our sector specific funds have performed well, but again it can't be too niche where you're creating a lot less deal flow, right, like you're creating a very small universe first if it's really niche and you have to have a right to win, it gives you a right to win because you're an expert in that sector, there's something about that sector and your experience that gives you a right to win in that sector and, you know, if it's a technical space, you need to be technical yourself so that you can diligence the opportunities and talk to the founders in their language as well, so it really just has to be authentic to the person and leveraging their skill set or their background on the sector Totally.

我喜欢你提到的那种，比如说你有某一支基金……

I like when you mention about like, let's say you have one of the portfolio.

哦，比如你有一支基金，你投它是因为那个基金的创始人很会讲故事，不是被投公司的创始人，而是基金本身的创始人，他特别擅长讲故事。

Oh, well, you have one of the, like, font that you invest in because of like the founder who's really good at storytelling, not the founder, but like the founder of the fund, who is really good at storytelling.

我觉得这个就挺难量化的，因为那怎么转化成钱呢？

I think that's a really hard benchmark to sell, because like, what does that translate into money?

所以，说到底，投资这些基金就是为了给LP赚钱，我就好奇你们是怎么设定这个基准来评估，确保从金钱角度来看是可行的。

Like, so eventually, like, in the end of the day, to invest in these funds is to, like, make money for the LPs, and I wonder like, how do you guys kind of like, creating that benchmark to evaluate, to make sure that this is like, works for, you know, from like the monetary perspective.

那人们怎么，我觉得这些算是软技能，显然很重要，但我觉得真的很难衡量，因为我觉得有很多人销售能力超强，但说到底，他们是好的投资者吗？

How do people, I guess like, because these are like soft skills, obviously it's very, But very important I feel like it's really hard to measure, because I feel like there's so many people who are just amazing at sales, you know, but in the end of the day, are they good investors?

对，这就是我们需要花时间的地方，对吧？

Correct, and that's where we have to spend the time, right?

必须有业绩记录来了解你的选股思路，为什么选那家公司，你的投资论点是什么，实际结果如何，哪些没成功，你的论点是什么。我觉得没多少人这么做，对吧，那些甚至可以说是僵尸创业公司的，它们没有被标记为可能已经死了，他们也不会说“嘿，我学到了这个，这是我当时的论点，这是我学到的”。所以我觉得这更能让我们看到你在学习和思考的过程。你对自己的投资论点越透明，越能说明你为什么认为这是正确的投资方向，这总能帮助我们理解并相信你的选股能力和成为好投资者的潜力。

There has to be a track record to kind of understand your thought around picking, why you chose that company, what was your thesis around it, how has it actually played out, what hasn't worked out, what was your thesis, and I think not enough people do that, right, like the key things that are even zombie startups, I'll call them, right, and they haven't been marked up for what, you know, they likely are dead and they're not like hey I learned this, this is what my thesis was at the time and this is what I learned and so I think that's an even better way for us to learn that you're learning and your train of thought and, you know, I think the more transparent you can be with your thesis on your underlying investments and what made you think this was the right place to put money will always help us understand and give confidence in your ability to pick and be a good investor.

我觉得是思考过程。有几个基金经理来的时候特别突出，因为他们的论点表达得非常清晰，他们谈论公司和为什么投资那个市场、那个机会的方式，比“哦，就是这个创始人，他们要做这个公司，公司是做什么的”要深入得多。当基金经理在向我们推销时，能深入讲出市场规模、其他参与者、他们在颠覆什么，他们真正了解投资和公司，并能清晰表达出来，那你就能更好地理解他们的投资思维、论点、尽职调查和承销能力，这会让你对他们作为投资者更有信心。

I think it's the train of thought, you know, there's a few managers that just really stick out on, you know, when they came in that they stood out because their thesis was so clearly articulated and the way they spoke about companies and why they invested in that certain market, that certain opportunity was so much deeper than oh it's this founder, they're going after this company and this is what the company does, where when managers can get into it when they're pitching us and they're telling us you know this is the market size, is these are the other players, this is what they were disrupting, they really know the investments in the company and they can articulate it, then you can understand their investment mindset and their thesis and their due diligence and their underwriting so much better and that gives you confidence in, you know, how they will be as an investor.

我在想……

I wonder...

我简直在记笔记，你每次说到这些，我都有好多问题。

I'm like literally taking notes, and then I have like so many questions whenever you're talking about this.

所以，好的。

So, okay.

那我们就来聊聊选项目这块吧。

So let's jump into like the picking part.

你投资过的那些基金或者基金管理人里，有哪些在选项目上有特别独特的优势？

You know, what kind of funders or like fund measures that you have invested in that are having a really unique picking advantage?

选项目的优势。

Picking advantage.

就是说他们特别擅长，我觉得有两种人，对吧？

Like they're really good at like, so I guess there's two type of people, right?

一种是有超级人脉网络的人，他们基本上就投那些热门项目，然后我把这些项目分成几个象限，比如看得见的好公司、看得见的坏公司、看不见的好公司和看不见的坏公司，显然，我确实……

Like one is like the people who with a mega network, and then they just kind of invest in like, you know, what's popular, and then like, I put them into quadrants, like, you know, the visible good company, the visible bad company, the, like, non visible good company and non visible bad company, obviously, I do...

我觉得有一个特别突出的就是Mucker。

I think one that totally stands out then is Mucker.

说到底，现在，我们所有的基金管理人，如果你投的是最早期阶段，那些多阶段基金现在都有程序化的种子基金，所以如果你只是找第二次创业的创始人，你会在价格上竞争，这对小基金来说不太划算，通常情况就是这样，而且如果你有足够大的种子基金，你也在竞争，这对你的基金组合构建来说不合理，所以你不会去找共识性的项目，对吧？Mucker刚开始的时候，专注于洛杉矶，在2011、2012年，抱歉，是'12年，那时候洛杉矶并不是共识性的选择，对吧？洛杉矶当时并不被认为会成为科技创业中心，所以他们一直是非硅谷的，所以看他们的项目流和他们所做的事情，从他们的加速器和基金里出来的成功公司数量绝对惊人，他们不追逐那些不知名的实体或硅谷网络，所以我觉得总是这样，我们基本上会把我们的投资组合分成种子前和种子阶段。

I mean, at the end of the day, right now, all of our managers, if you're investing at the earliest stages, the multi stage funds now all have programmatic seed funds, so if you're just looking for a second time founder, you're going to be competing on price and it's not going to make sense for a small fund the the way it plays out typically and you're going to be competing, you know, if you have a large enough seed fund you're competing and it just doesn't make sense for your fund portfolio construction, so you aren't looking for the consensus, right, and so Mucker started and it was focused on LA in twenty eleven-twelve, sorry, '12, wasn't consensus back then, then, right, like LA wasn't known as a going to be a tech startup hubspot and so they have always been the non Silicon Valley and so for them looking at their deal flow and what they've done, you know, the amount of successful companies that have come out of their accelerator and their fund is absolutely phenomenal and they're not chasing any of the unknown entities or the Silicon Valley network and so I think, you know, it's always, we kind of, we break our portfolio up into pre seed and seed.

种子阶段有一些牵引力，一些收入，一些客户，或者有值得尽职调查的东西，或者我们回到之前说的，是第二次创业的创始人，一开始就能拿到600万美元或更多的融资。

Seed has some traction, some revenue, some customers or there is a, you know, there's something to diligence there or we go back to it's a second time founder that can command $6,000,000 whatever plus out of the gate.

种子前阶段其实就是去识别公司里的人，想办法把他们拉出来，或者找到那些有想法的人，帮他们打磨这个想法，然后赌他们能把这个想法变成一门生意。所以我觉得这需要一套独特的软技能，真正理解什么让一个创始人特别，谁有正确的想法，因为再说一次，他们最初的想法可能不是最终的，他们得不断迭代。

Pre seed is really they're identifying people at companies and they're working to pull them out or they're identifying people that have this idea and helping them craft the idea and betting that they can make that idea a business and so I think it takes a unique skill set of soft skills to really understand, you know, what makes a founder special and who has the right idea because again it might be the idea they start with, they're going to have to iterate.

没有哪个商业计划是你一开始写下来，最后退出时就完全照做的。所以我真的觉得，关键是要能识别出优秀的创始人和优秀的人。如果你看我们的投资组合，Mucker一直在做到这一点，而且他们的业绩记录里持续有回报，还有巨大的异常成功案例。

There's no business plan where you start with it and that's exactly what you end with at the end of the day you exit and so I really think it's this being able to identify great founders and great people and if you look at our portfolio, Mucker continuously does it and has a persistence of returns in their track record of huge outlier outcomes.

嗨，Monique。

Hi, Monique.

嗨，Himale。

Hi, Himale.

我想把名字念对。

So I want to pronounce it right.

好的。

Okay.

所以Mucker有个名声，有点像那种A轮、Z轮都做，但完全不是硅谷风格的那种。

So Mucker has a reputation of like kind of A, six and Z, but all set of Silicon Valley kind of thing.

所以我想知道，你们在挑选他们的时候，他们可能现在还没有那种光环或名气吧？

So I wonder, how do you like so big basically, when you guys pick them, they probably don't have, like, the kind of cache right now.

所以我想知道，当你们挑选他们的时候，是怎么看出他们和其他基金的区别的？

So I wonder, like, when you pick pick them, how do you spot, like, the differences between them and, like, other funds?

就像他们挑选创始人，看谁能成为独角兽一样。

The same way they pick founders versus other founders that become unicorns.

我觉得很多时候就是看软技能，他们是不是能赚钱的人，对吧？

You know, I do think it's a lot of time of just the soft skills of are they a moneymaker, right?

我觉得我们花了很多时间看动机，对吧，比如这个人是不是真的更适合后期阶段？

I think there's we spend a lot of time on motivation, right, like is this someone who actually is better suited for the later stage?

很多早期阶段的普通合伙人都是当过创始人的，他们知道从零到一是怎么回事，也知道从零到一需要什么样的人，需要什么样的毅力、决心和技能才能把企业做起来。所以很多人以前都是运营者，自己亲身做过，因为他们需要能识别出一个人身上有没有这些特质。我觉得这就是我们试图在他们身上找到的，就是他们有没有那种情商和知识基础，能不能识别出对的人，他们评估人的方式对不对？

A lot of these a lot of the early stage GPs are have walked in the shoes of founders, they know what the zero to one is and they know what the zero to one takes in a person and the grit and determination and the skill set needed to accomplish the zero to one to build a business and so a lot of them are former operators and have done it themselves because they need to be able to identify what makes that in a person, and I think that's what we try to identify in them, is like do they have that EQ and knowledge base where they're going to be able to identify the right people, are they assessing people in the right way?

再说一次，我们投资的是人，对吧，我们不是投资一个企业，而是投资一个人加上一个企业，甚至不是投资一个想法，虽然也有点像想法，但这是一个盲投组合，也是一种关系。

Again, we're investing in a person, right, we're not investing in a business, a person in a business, or even an idea, I mean it's somewhat of an idea, but it's a blind portfolio and it's a relationship.

所以我要补充的另一件事是，我们必须喜欢这个人，对吧，我的意思是，如果我们只做一期基金，我们不喜欢那样，对吧，我们想做多期基金，所以这是一个几十年的关系，我们要确保我们喜欢和你合作。

So the other thing I would add is that we have to like the person, right, I mean this is a if we just did one fund, which we don't love to sign up for, right, we want to do multiple funds and so it's a, you know, multi decade relationship and we want to make sure we like working with you.

我觉得这很重要，因为再说一次，创始人的推荐，回到那些创始人推荐，人们必须喜欢和你合作。我觉得在后期阶段可能不一样，那是关于品牌光环之类的，但在最早期的阶段，你真的必须喜欢和这个人一起工作，你们要一起深入细节，希望他们能增加价值，我们对普通合伙人也有同样的感觉。

I think that's important because again, founder referrals, going back to those founder referrals, people have to like working with you, and I think it may be different at later stages, it's about, you know, brand halo, etc, but at the earliest stages you really have to like working with the person, you're in the weeds, and hopefully they're adding value, and we feel the same way about the GPs back.

完全同意。

Totally.

我喜欢你们都是——

I like when you have They're

都是好人。

all nice people.

他们都是好人，你得喜欢他们。

They're all nice people, and you have to like them.

我在想，到了这个阶段，你确实喜欢他们。

I wonder, like, at this point, you like them.

那你怎么拿下这笔交易呢？

How do you win the deal?

我觉得对LP来说，这简直是明摆着的事。

Like, I feel like for LPs, like, it's a no brainer.

感觉那个阶段更容易赢，因为你们算是少数几个大玩家之一，而且LP，你们就是LP，对吧？

It's like, it's I feel like it's easier to, like, win that stage, because of, like, you guys are kind of the one of the, like, only big players, and LP, you guys are LP, right?

所以我在想，对于GP来说，当你看到这么多粉丝时，他们各自有什么特别的优势呢？

So, I wonder, like, for GPs, when you see so many fans, like, what is their kind of particular strengths?

你见过哪些特别有意思的粉丝，他们在赢得交易方面特别厉害？

What is like an interesting fan that you've seen that are amazing at winning deals?

就像他们要和那些大玩家竞争，最后还能赢。

Like they're competing with all these big players and then they eventually win.

我们的一位基金经理几周前和他谈过，他击败了我认为可以说是你常听到的头号种子基金，他坐了四次飞机去纽约，亲自见创始人。

I mean, one of our fund managers spoke to him a few weeks ago and he beat out what I would say is like the number one seed fund that you hear about, And he got on a plane and went to New York four times to meet the founder in person.

他们把自己的生意当成创业公司来经营，出去拼，想要什么就努力去实现。

Treat their own businesses as startups in a business, and they go out and hustle, and if they want something, they make it work.

所以他们是在推销自己。

And So they're selling themselves.

我觉得如果你要正面竞争，我们不一定非要找那些和硅谷名牌公司正面竞争的人，因为那样你就是在拼价格，这对投资组合的构建不利。但如果你是在自己的生态圈里竞争，那就像你有一个行业专长和技能专长，你网络里的创始人会主动给你要争取的创始人打电话，说你必须接受这个GP的投资，他们帮我搞定了我最初的三笔收入交易，这个GP帮我招到了前四个员工，就像这样，你投资组合里的其他创始人会给你想争取的那个创始人打电话告诉他们，这就是你赢得交易的方式。

I think, you know, if you're competing head to head we're not necessarily looking again for the people who are competing head to head with the name brand Silicon Valley firms, because then you're competing on price, which doesn't work for the portfolio construction, but if you're competing against just, you know, in your ecosystem, again it's like there you have an expertise on a sector and expertise on a skill set, founders in your network are going to like proactively call the founder that you're pitching and be like you have to take money from this GP, they helped me land all my, you know, my first three revenue deals, this GP got me my first four hires, like that's what the other founders in your portfolio are gonna call the one that you want to land and tell them, and that's how you're gonna win deals.

所以基本上我觉得这需要大量的努力，然后我真的很喜欢你说的，他们把自己当成创始人，必须真正走出去和所有人竞争。

So basically I feel like it's like huge amount of like hustle, and then like, I really like that when you said like, you know, they treat themselves like a funder, and they have to really go out there to, like, you know, compete with everybody else.